Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5691244/

Topic: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: olle
Posted 2013-02-14 22:34:41 and read 20935 times.

Flight global tells that Boeing has slots for production of 747-8 the next yeats and might need to decrease production.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...med-747-8-production-slots-382245/

From article;

A "number" of unsold production slots for 747-8 Freighters and Intercontinental passenger models must be filled after this year to keep production on track at a rate of two aircraft per month, Boeing says in the annual filing.

"If we are unable to obtain orders for multiple Freighter aircraft in 2013 consistent with our near-term production plans, we may be required to take actions including reducing the number of airplanes produced and/or building airplanes for which we have not received firm orders," Boeing says.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: olle
Posted 2013-02-14 22:36:14 and read 20952 times.

Is this a reaction of the 777-9x presentations? This will be a plane very close to 747-8i

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Bureaucromancer
Posted 2013-02-14 22:40:14 and read 20915 times.

More like the end of the spike in sales associated with the 8, and the return of the fundemental issue that there is only so much demand for VLAs and even less demand for 50 year old airframes. Ramping down production really seems like a sensible move to me, I can't really imagine that many of the customers who would seriously consider the 747 at this point are going to be terribly upset by a low delivery rate.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Lutfi
Posted 2013-02-14 23:55:53 and read 20584 times.

Plus cargo market is weak at the moment, no follow on orders for -8F's

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: airlinebuilder
Posted 2013-02-14 23:56:28 and read 20585 times.

ergo, Boeing needs to materialize the their rendition of a twin engined double decker, that would kill all competition.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Flying-Tiger
Posted 2013-02-15 00:08:55 and read 20502 times.

Quoting Lutfi (Reply 3):
Plus cargo market is weak at the moment, no follow on orders for -8F's

Probably one of the main issues. Would actually expect that some carriers are more interested to get out of their orders than to add new ones...

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: chiad
Posted 2013-02-15 04:22:35 and read 19840 times.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 4):
ergo, Boeing needs to materialize the their rendition of a twin engined double decker, that would kill all competition.

First GE needs to offer an engine rated at 150,000 lb.
 

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: bongodog1964
Posted 2013-02-15 05:22:52 and read 19547 times.

At what point does Boeing sit down and decide that all the resources and space devoted to this project could be better utilised elsewhere ?
Perhaps not at a little below 2 per month, but if demand for the 747-8 continues to be weak, plus demand for 737's 777's & 787's continues to be strong, and production slips to 15 or so a year, all that factory space might find a more profitable use.
The 767 was kept running at a very low production rate, but in all likelihood only as they were hoping for the USAF tanker contract. I'm sure that if the contract hadn't gone to Boeing the 767 lines closure would have been announced within days.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-15 05:35:14 and read 19447 times.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
At what point does Boeing sit down and decide that all the resources and space devoted to this project could be better utilised elsewhere ?
Perhaps not at a little below 2 per month, but if demand for the 747-8 continues to be weak, plus demand for 737's 777's & 787's continues to be strong, and production slips to 15 or so a year, all that factory space might find a more profitable use.
The 767 was kept running at a very low production rate, but in all likelihood only as they were hoping for the USAF tanker contract. I'm sure that if the contract hadn't gone to Boeing the 767 lines closure would have been announced within days.

The 748F is unique and will remain the most capable freighter for a long, long time from now, without competition. Even if the market is rather small, its there and will remain there. That alone already makes sense to keep the line open. I am only sad about the 748I, which from a passenger standpoint is a much superior aircraft than the 77W which is selling good still. I´d wish Boeing would further develop the 748 and drop the hideous 777-9X instead, but I am Don Quixote here obviously.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-02-15 05:56:36 and read 19309 times.

Quoting Bureaucromancer (Reply 2):
More like the end of the spike in sales associated with the 8, and the return of the fundemental issue that there is only so much demand for VLAs and even less demand for 50 year old airframes.

Come now, stop that 50 year old nonsense. We don't talk about 30 year old A320s, do we?

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 4):
Boeing needs to materialize the their rendition of a twin engined double decker, that would kill all competition.

That would kill Boeing long before it'd kill Airbus. Note that Boeing even approached Airbus about partnering on a VLA before the A380 days and still could not find a way to move forward.

Boeing has a quite nice strategy for the 788/9/1, 777W/X, 748 to cover replacement of 767s, A330s, A340s, older 777s and 744s. The 748 is somewhat letting the side down, but I'm sure Boeing will wait till the 777X is firmly established before any possible decision to spin the line down or shut it down totally. As above there's gaps in the line next year, and if nothing else materializes they'll just slow it down to a crawl. Clearly if nothing else they want to have it in place to build the expected 3 ship fleet replacement of the VC-25s.

One could argue B's widebody strategy is a tad better than A's. The 788 is the best positioned to capture 767 replacement, the 789/1 are ideal A332 and A333 replacements, the 772 is covered by 781 and 777-8X should the market want it, and 777-9X hits the gap between current 77W and A380 quite nicely with two less engines to worry about. The A358 is not drawing that much interest and the A351 is trying to compete with various 777 models with a stretch of a stretch, and then there is that big gap till you get to the A380.

Now, all Boeing needs to do is execute the plan!

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Richard28
Posted 2013-02-15 06:07:30 and read 19243 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
777-9X hits the gap between current 77W and A380 quite nicely
Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
to compete with various 777 models with a stretch of a stretch

wrong way around?

isnt the 777-9X a stretch of a stretch?

and I thought the A351 is only a single stretch?

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: art
Posted 2013-02-15 06:54:21 and read 18980 times.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
At what point does Boeing sit down and decide that all the resources and space devoted to this project could be better utilised elsewhere ?
Perhaps not at a little below 2 per month, but if demand for the 747-8 continues to be weak, plus demand for 737's 777's & 787's continues to be strong, and production slips to 15 or so a year, all that factory space might find a more profitable use.

Production of the 747 was below 20 per annum for the last 6 or 7 years of production. I suppose production at that level was profitable so perhaps ramping 748 production down to less than 20 per annum would be acceptable to Boeing.

It seems to me that one way to increase 2014 uptake might be for Boeing to offer special finance terms to customers prepared to take delivery in 2014. That might be cheaper than building white tails.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: PC12Fan
Posted 2013-02-15 07:09:37 and read 18825 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
even less demand for 50 year old airframes.
Come now, stop that 50 year old nonsense. We don't talk about 30 year old A320s, do we?

   Exactly!!

Yes, the current platform originated from the first design but the 747-8F and 747-8i is the farthest thing from a 50 year old design!

Let's put this type of comparison to rest folks, shall we?   

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-02-15 07:19:11 and read 18612 times.

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 10):
isnt the 777-9X a stretch of a stretch?
Quoting Richard28 (Reply 10):
and I thought the A351 is only a single stretch?

I see your points, but it seems that the 777W is doing enough replacing, including providing an all-new wing, to avoid the "stretch too far" problem, whereas some of the grumbling from A351 customers could indicate that it might not avoid the problem.

Personally the 781 is more likely to suffer from the StF problem because they aren't doing anything much more than stretching it, but it seems the customer base is OK with that, which might not be the case for the A351.

It doesn't change my assertion that B will be in a tad better position for the widebody market once all the currently discussed programs happen. Of course it seems A will be in a good position for a substantial new project around the end of the decade whilst B has itself committed to the 777X, so A has the next move.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: PanAm1971
Posted 2013-02-15 08:19:54 and read 17572 times.

I just flew on a KLM 747-400M. It was my first 747 flight is some years. I can't tell you how much I love the 747 as a passenger. I really do hope the 748I gets more orders. And failing that-I hope LH puts a 748I on the JFK route. I'll fly them. What a fantastic aircraft.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Newark727
Posted 2013-02-15 08:31:08 and read 17336 times.

It seems to me that the 747-8 could still pick up a few more orders in the future from Asian airlines who want a new-build replacement for their 747-400s, there are a whole bunch of -400 freighters and converted freighters that will at some point get old. A bigger rebound in the economy and airline market will probably have to happen first though.

Has delivery availability ever been a major factor in an order? I've seen it tossed around in here but I'm skeptical about it ever actually changing anyone's mind, else I'd wonder about that with respect to 747 production rates.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-02-15 08:37:27 and read 17206 times.

The 747 is the only option for the high capacity freighter market. The 777 freighter is also a good option, but for airlines wanting heavy lift and large volume, there is only one option. The problem Boeing has is that there have been a large number of airlines dumping 747-400s on the freighter market. SQ has sold over 40 low cycle 747-400s in the last 10 years. About 2/3rds are now freighters, so that is a large supply of airplanes that are competing with the 747-8.

Eventually the 747-400 will continue to age and the supply will drop and Boeing is hoping that enough customers go to new build 747-8s. I see the 747-8 limping along on freighter sales for a while since if you look at the market the airplane is the only long term prospect until a 777 BCF program starts, which would be a large loss in capacity.

Everyone wants to see blockbuster deals for the 747-8, especially passenger orders since we have become accustom to that with the 787, A350, 737MAX and A320NEO, but I don’t see those coming any time soon. The 747-8 likely will limp along like the 767, A340, 717 and MD-11 did.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-15 08:40:50 and read 17137 times.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 15):
Has delivery availability ever been a major factor in an order?

Not at this level of the market.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Burkhard
Posted 2013-02-15 09:14:06 and read 16534 times.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 15):
Has delivery availability ever been a major factor in an order?

In case of the A330 I'm sure. The A380 is not so unavailable that it could ensure the 748I, nor is the 777. I doubt, unfortunately, that the 748I will reach the number of sales of the A340-600.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-15 09:40:08 and read 16097 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):
The 747 is the only option for the high capacity freighter market. The 777 freighter is also a good option, but for airlines wanting heavy lift and large volume, there is only one option. The problem Boeing has is that there have been a large number of airlines dumping 747-400s on the freighter market. SQ has sold over 40 low cycle 747-400s in the last 10 years. About 2/3rds are now freighters, so that is a large supply of airplanes that are competing with the 747-8.

Ironically, with cargo volume so low, it appears having the most efficient platform to haul what you can get is very important. So we're seeing dedicated and converted 747-400 family freighters being sent to the desert or leased to smaller operators in favor of new 777 and 747-8 freighters.

The 777 freighter has effectively knifed the 747-400 converted freighter in the kidneys. It will lift 90% of the volume and 95% of the weight with significantly better fuel burn and lower maintenance costs. And even with it's performance miss, the 747-8F offers class-leading economics and as Boeing continues to engineer out weight and GE improves SFC those economics will only get better. I expect the desire for these better frames is one of the reasons why Boeing is having issues filling 2013 slots - customers are deferring until later production tranches.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-15 10:18:58 and read 15445 times.

Quoting Bureaucromancer (Reply 2):

More like the end of the spike in sales associated with the 8, and the return of the fundemental issue that there is only so much demand for VLAs and even less demand for 50 year old airframes. Ramping down production really seems like a sensible move to me, I can't really imagine that many of the customers who would seriously consider the 747 at this point are going to be terribly upset by a low delivery rate.

I don't these aircraft frames are 50 years old. Yes, the 747 has been around that long, a testament to the longevity of the design, but I believe that the 748i is quite a few years younger.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: bongodog1964
Posted 2013-02-15 11:08:14 and read 14739 times.

Quoting na (Reply 8):
The 748F is unique and will remain the most capable freighter for a long, long time from now, without competition. Even if the market is rather small, its there and will remain there. That alone already makes sense to keep the line open

Whilst the demand (even if very small) is definitely there, the big question is, at what point does it cease to make economic sense to Boeing, either due to it not being profitable, or because they can use the tied up assets more profitably elsewhere.
A comparison might be the 757, even now it still has a small market segment where it is the only viable airframe (Transatlantic single aisle) but the market wasn't large enough to warrant Boeing keeping the line open.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-15 11:55:21 and read 14134 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
The 777 freighter has effectively knifed the 747-400 converted freighter in the kidneys.

It has, ironically, also knifed the low end of the 748F market that doesn't quite need the lift at range (e.g., FedEx and I suspect one day UPS).

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
I expect the desire for these better frames is one of the reasons why Boeing is having issues filling 2013 slots - customers are deferring until later production tranches.

I personally hope that is the reason. The difference in performance is impressive.

Quoting Lutfi (Reply 3):

Plus cargo market is weak at the moment,

That is killing the 748. Until production accelerates, the plane isn't very profitable and thus low discounts... But with the improvements, it will do bettr.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
all that factory space might find a more profitable use.

Unless the line rate increases, I agree. It all depends on the 748 improvements. If the cargo market recovers, I expect both versions of the 748 to do well. If the cargo market continues to be weak, not enough freight companies will have the cash flow to switch to the 748F (even though there is a business case).

Quoting na (Reply 8):
The 748F is unique and will remain the most capable freighter for a long, long time from now, without competition. Even if the market is rather small, its there and will remain there. That alone already makes sense to keep the line open.

Unique isn't enough. Airframe production costs drop significantly with volume. I think the 748 will recover, but it does not have a long window to 'find its sales legs.'

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):

The 747 is the only option for the high capacity freighter market.

But there are plenty of 744s that could be converted. Worse case, Airbus would have an A380F market.   

Just because a plane fills a niche doesn't mean that niche should be filled. My current employer just abandoned a market they own. Why? The profits were very low and the product line was occupying factory floor space that could be converted in a day to a new product line that earns 5X to 7X the profit. I think the 748 will do well, but Boeing is probably close to closing the line unless orders start filling the pipeline.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: NWAROOSTER
Posted 2013-02-15 12:07:49 and read 13963 times.

You can't buy a new build 747 like Northwest Airlines did in 1970 for about 21.5 million dollars anymore.
I know the dollar bought more then, but I think prices have increased exponentially since.   

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-15 12:12:54 and read 13854 times.

Except the A380F is a big dud, it basically sucks as a freighter, its a passenger plane.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2013-02-15 12:18:06 and read 14432 times.

The article quoted by the OP mentions that Boeing needs additional freighter orders to keep the current production pace. My question is, why not passenger and/or freighter orders? Are the slots dedicated to one version over another, or is it an implicit admission by Boeing that the aircraft's future rests in the box-moving market?

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-15 12:23:49 and read 14421 times.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 25):
My question is, why not passenger and/or freighter orders?

It may be that Boeing's suppliers are currently geared to produce freighter shipsets so that is what Boeing is ready to assemble in those slots.

Also, a new airline customer for the 747-8 would require customer engineering resources from Boeing to develop and certify the passenger cabin as well as the airline then having to order cabin fittings, so even if the new customer ordered in 2013, they might not be able to take delivery before 2014.

Boeing does have available slots of 747-8 VIP customers, but those are built unfurnished so if a customer for one of them appeared, Boeing might be able to fill a slot. I hear Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal might be in the market for a new bizjet now that he's sold his A380CJ.  

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-02-15 13:27:43 and read 13898 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):
The 747 is the only option for the high capacity freighter market. The 777 freighter is also a good option, but for airlines wanting heavy lift and large volume, there is only one option.

Interestingly enough, I just read that the RR's entry in the 777X engine market is hitting limitations due to transportability. The article says its fan will fit through the 777F door but won't fit on the 747. Antonov wasn't mentioned.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 21):
Whilst the demand (even if very small) is definitely there, the big question is, at what point does it cease to make economic sense to Boeing, either due to it not being profitable, or because they can use the tied up assets more profitably elsewhere.

I suspect the question really won't come up till they have to think about how/where to build the 777X. By that time the USAF should have put in for the VC-25 replacements and if the market for cargo planes is still poor, Boeing can put out a 'last and final offer'.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: bongodog1964
Posted 2013-02-15 13:41:34 and read 13616 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
By that time the USAF should have put in for the VC-25 replacements

I don't think an order for two VC25 replacements will make a lot of difference to a decision whether to continue or not. On the matter of a VC25 replacement, is one really on the horizon ? I recently read that the utilisation of the present ones is such that they will outlive all of us.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-15 15:08:24 and read 12633 times.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 23):
You can't buy a new build 747 like Northwest Airlines did in 1970 for about 21.5 million dollars anymore.
I know the dollar bought more then, but I think prices have increased exponentially since.

With inflation, $21.5 million in 1970 is equivalent to about $127 million today. Current list price of a 747-8 is about $351 million, but of course nobody pays those prices.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-02-15 16:26:54 and read 11718 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):
The problem Boeing has is that there have been a large number of airlines dumping 747-400s on the freighter market. SQ has sold over 40 low cycle 747-400s in the last 10 years. About 2/3rds are now freighters, so that is a large supply of airplanes that are competing with the 747-8.

But the B-744BCF is really just a bigger B-777F, and not fit for outsized or very heavy cargo like the B-748F is.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 23):You can't buy a new build 747 like Northwest Airlines did in 1970 for about 21.5 million dollars anymore.I know the dollar bought more then, but I think prices have increased exponentially since. With inflation, $21.5 million in 1970 is equivalent to about $127 million today. Current list price of a 747-8 is about $351 million, but of course nobody pays those prices.

Of course the B-748 also more capability than the B-741 did. It has more range, more payload, more pax, lower seat cost miles, and lower operating costs (no FE for example).

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: garpd
Posted 2013-02-15 17:45:52 and read 11028 times.

Quoting Bureaucromancer (Reply 2):
More like the end of the spike in sales associated with the 8, and the return of the fundemental issue that there is only so much demand for VLAs and even less demand for 50 year old airframes

Someone always has to try and use the "XX year old airframe" card.
That's old hat and simply irrelevant.

Yes, the basic design is 50 years old, but the 748i is significantly different to the 747-100. It is not a 50 year old airframe.

You don't see Airbus struggling to sell their 40 year old airframe do you? The A330 is essentially an A300 fuselage with modification. Of course, in reality it's far more complicated than that. The visual aspect is where the similarity ends.
Which is the point I'm making with the 747.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-15 17:59:40 and read 10928 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 31):
Yes, the basic design is 50 years old, but the 748i is significantly different to the 747-100. It is not a 50 year old airframe.

And even if the first 747-100 was still flying it would be 44 years old, not 50. First flight 44 years ago last week, February 9, 1969.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: SCAT15F
Posted 2013-02-15 21:34:07 and read 9127 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
The article says its fan will fit through the 777F door but won't fit on the 747.

What? How is that possible? If it can't fit through the nose of a 747 then how could it fit through the side door on a 777F?

That must be a mistake. Otherwise, what advantage would the 747 swing-nose have over an A388F or any other large freighter, for that matter?

AFAIK, the Antonov An-124 is the only aircraft that can air-transport the GE90, and hence, the even larger RB3025 for the 777X.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: cornutt
Posted 2013-02-15 21:56:52 and read 8968 times.

Quoting art (Reply 11):
It seems to me that one way to increase 2014 uptake might be for Boeing to offer special finance terms to customers prepared to take delivery in 2014. That might be cheaper than building white tails.

Boeing never, ever builds white tails. They might offer to buy back some other aircraft in order to encourage some orders to take earlier slots. But Boeing won't mind running the line at a rate of one per month, given what a 748 sells for. (If we were talking about a 737 line, it would be different.) Especially now that the Charleston plant has effectively expanded the Everett floor space.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Spacepope
Posted 2013-02-15 22:07:46 and read 8850 times.

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 33):
Otherwise, what advantage would the 747 swing-nose have over an A388F or any other large freighter, for that matter?

Long cargo.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2013-02-15 23:42:23 and read 8508 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 31):
Someone always has to try and use the "XX year old airframe" card.
That's old hat and simply irrelevant.

I remember reading an article a few years ago mentioning how it was critical for every model of the 737NG to share a number of commonalities with earlier designs (I think ground clearance was specifically mentioned) because it would allow Boeing to have the 737NG models certified as evolution of the prior model, apparently saving substantial time (and money of course) over certifying them as clean-sheet designs.

The article mentioned that Boeing had adopted the same approach for the 747 family.

Now, if my memory and understanding of that article are correct, then that means that Boeing is claiming the 747-8 is a 50-year old design. It may be to save time and money, but in my opinion, they can't have their cake and eat it too.

If Boeing tells the FAA that the 747-8 is the 5th version of the 747-100 (after the -200, -300, -400 and SP), then it is a 50-year old design. If it isn't a 50-year old design, then it needed to be certified as a clean-sheet aircraft. That simple.

And now, I stand ready to have my memory and understanding corrected...

(to avoid confusion as to the intend of my post, that it is the evolution of the -100 doesn't make the -8 inherently unsafe or worthy of a personal no-fly list, I flew on an -8 last December and the flight was perfectly fine)

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-16 00:09:59 and read 8440 times.

They couldn´t make the 748 too good, that would have killed the 777-X. That is my theory. CFRP wings, Al-Li skin etc

They could have gone further on the 748 but decided to do a smaller update. Now the 777-9X will kill it instead.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-16 01:27:34 and read 8260 times.

Quote:
Explaining the decision, the German carrier’s 747-8 chief pilot Elmar Boje says the extensive flight test modifications already made to the aircraft would mean that, even after post-test refurbishment, the unit would be a non-standard “white elephant” in the Lufthansa fleet. However, he adds the airline’s long-range fleet group is due to decide on adding additional aircraft by the third quarter of 2013, some of which could include 747-8s.
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_12_20_2012_p0-531065.xml

The article is a few months old now but I am very confident that we will see at least Lufthansa placing an order for additional 747s this year

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: 747classic
Posted 2013-02-16 01:35:58 and read 8280 times.

The 747-8 is produced at the moment in 3 basic variants :


- 747-8I/airline version, built according basic number* block R8001 and further

- 747-8I /BBJ, built according basic number block R8401 and further.

- 747-8F, built according basic number block R8901 and further

The external difference between the first two variants is almost non existent, however numerous internal design changes, incorporated already at the final assembly line are reducing the installation time (and/or modification effort )of the pax. cabin plus IFE in the airline version, or the installation of the sky-loft, elevators, VIP interior in the BBJ version.

I don't know the exact lead time of each version, but switching between a freighter production slot and a 747-8I slot requires a longer lead time, than switching between a 747-8I/BBJ and an airline 747-8I production slot.

* Definition of the "Boeing Basic Number" :
The basic number identifies the standard design for an airplane model. This indicator is made up from one letter and four numbers. The letter indicates the type of aircraft :
P = 737, Y = 737NG, R = 747, N = 757, V = 767, W = 777, Z = 787
The numbers are sequential , according assembly, different (sub)standards are listed into number blocks

Below are the basic number blocks for all 747 models listed :

R0001-R0132 747-100
R0301-R0307 747SR-46,
R0351-R0381 747SR-81, 747-100B and 747-100B(SUD)
R0501-R0534 747-122 and 747-123
R1001-R1267 747-200B/300 all pax.
R1501-R1519 747-238B
R1531-R1629 747-200B/300 combi
R1901-R1904 747-E4
R2001-R2055 747-400 combi
R2401-R2726 747-400 all pax.
R2901-R2920 747-400D
R3001-R3035 747SP
R3301-R3310 747SP
R4005-R4009 747-200C
R4101-R4108 747-200C
R6001-R6016 747-200F
R6101-R6157 747-200F
R6501-R6518 747-400F
R6601-R6715 747-400 all pax.
R7001-R7006 747-400 combi
R7101-R7199 747-400F/ERF
R7201-R7206 747-400ER
R7251-R7299 747-400F/ERF
R8001-Rxxxx 747-8I
R8401-Rxxxx 747-8I/BBJ
R8901-Rxxxx 747-8F

Note : The Boeing Variable Number or Tabulation Number (for the 747-8 series RCxxx) indicates a specific airframe, including all options selected by an individual customer.

Examples :

L/N 1420, the first 747-8F, is built according basic number R8901,with variable number RC501 (Cargolux)
L/N 1421, the second 747-8F, is built according basic number R8902, with variable number RC521(NCA)
L/N 1434, the first 747-8/BBJ, is built according basic number R8401, with variable number RC001 (BBJ)
L/N 1435, the first airline 747-8I, is built according basic number R8001, with varable number RC021 (DLH)

[Edited 2013-02-16 02:04:39]

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2013-02-16 05:44:02 and read 7861 times.

Quoting na (Reply 8):
I´d wish Boeing would further develop the 748 and drop the hideous 777-9X instead

That would be suicide for Boeing. The 777-9X will have more cargo volume than the 747-8 and similar payload-range performance, while using less fuel per trip in the process. Boeing would be mad not to go for it.

Quoting sweair (Reply 37):
They couldn´t make the 748 too good, that would have killed the 777-X. That is my theory. CFRP wings, Al-Li skin etc

They could have gone further on the 748 but decided to do a smaller update. Now the 777-9X will kill it instead.

I agree to a point: Boeing toyed with the idea of an 85m 747-600X in the mid 1990s, so the fact that they only stretched the 747-8 to 76 metres is curious. If they had stretched the 747-8 further - say 80m, there would be a bigger size differentiation between it and the 777X, putting the 747-8 closer to A380 territory than it is to the 777.

However, to suggest that there is a conspiracy at work here is silly.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: PC12Fan
Posted 2013-02-16 07:17:47 and read 7645 times.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 40):
The 777-9X will have more cargo volume than the 747-8 and similar payload-range performance, while using less fuel per trip in the process. Boeing would be mad not to go for it.

Yes, but I have to believe that even the 777-9FX would not have the same performance capabilities of the 748-F. If that were the case, Boeing could have even developed a 777-3F that could have killed the 747-8F before it even got off the drawing board - IMO.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-16 07:18:11 and read 7692 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
Interestingly enough, I just read that the RR's entry in the 777X engine market is hitting limitations due to transportability. The article says its fan will fit through the 777F door but won't fit on the 747. Antonov wasn't mentioned.
Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 33):
What? How is that possible? If it can't fit through the nose of a 747 then how could it fit through the side door on a 777F?

The side door of both the 747 and 777 freighter is larger than the nose door of the 747 freighter.

747F Side Door Dimensions: 3.05m high x 3.40m wide
747 Nose Door Dimensions: 2.49m tall x 3.56m wide (minimum)



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 33):
That must be a mistake. Otherwise, what advantage would the 747 swing-nose have over an A388F or any other large freighter, for that matter?

The ability to load very long objects.



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 33):
AFAIK, the Antonov An-124 is the only aircraft that can air-transport the GE90, and hence, the even larger RB3025 for the 777X.

As a complete unit, this is likely correct. The GE90 fan casing can be disconnected from the core for transport as two separate units in a 747 or 777 freighter,



Quoting sweair (Reply 37):
They couldn´t make the 748 too good, that would have killed the 777-X. That is my theory. CFRP wings, Al-Li skin etc

At the time of the 747-8's development, there were no serious plans to develop an improved 777. In fact, the only way the 747-8 could sell was if it was better than the 777-300ER so deliberately crippling it to protect an improved 777-300ER would have negated the reason for launching the 747-8 in the first place.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: SCAT15F
Posted 2013-02-16 10:21:47 and read 7358 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):

I never would have guessed... Well, you learn something new every day!


I think the best Boeing could do now to save the 748i is to do a "simple stretch" to 80 meters (assuming the weight and engine specs are brought to design goals)

With the same MTOW of 987k, the 747-9 could carry 500 in a standard Boeing configuration to the same range as the 787-10x (6800 to 7000 nm). Or B could increase the MTOW to between 1,000,000 and 1,010,000 lbs (as demonstrated) to keep range at 8000 nm.

Overbuilt as it is the structure can handle the extra weight without any further beefing up, so the increase in OEW should be minimal for this 11 ft stretch. Plus, if MTOW was capped at 987k, I think more weight could be taken out of the structure as is...

I would also use the 4% thrust bump version of the GEnx-2b.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: by738
Posted 2013-02-16 11:30:09 and read 7133 times.

Hope the end for 747 is not near !

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: bongodog1964
Posted 2013-02-16 14:28:40 and read 6836 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 33):AFAIK, the Antonov An-124 is the only aircraft that can air-transport the GE90, and hence, the even larger RB3025 for the 777X.
As a complete unit, this is likely correct. The GE90 fan casing can be disconnected from the core for transport as two separate units in a 747 or 777 freighter,

If it fits in an A124 it will definitely fit in both the Dreamlifter and Beluga.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-16 14:30:48 and read 6850 times.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 45):
If it fits in an A124 it will definitely fit in both the Dreamlifter and Beluga.

The Dreamlifter is not certified to carry anything but 787 parts so that would not be an option.  

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: bongodog1964
Posted 2013-02-16 15:51:31 and read 6684 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 46):
Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 45):If it fits in an A124 it will definitely fit in both the Dreamlifter and Beluga.
The Dreamlifter is not certified to carry anything but 787 parts so that would not be an option.

Whats a turbofan if its not part of a plane ?

If Boeing needed larger diameter engines to be flown, I'm sure that certification wouldn't be a problem, after all whats the difference between parts for a 787 and any other Boeing aircraft ?

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-16 16:01:16 and read 6661 times.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 47):
Whats a turbofan if its not part of a plane?

It's been stated in this forum that the TCDS for the Dreamlifter is explicit in noting it's only able to carry 787 shipsets including the fuselage sections, wings, horizontal stabilizers, wing boxes and main wheel wells. I believe this is in part because the cargo restraint system is designed only for these pieces.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2013-02-16 16:12:48 and read 6620 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 48):
I believe this is in part because the cargo restraint system is designed only for these pieces.

also no need to prove fire containment and a host of other things that separate 787 specific parts hauling vs general cargo. The FAA can be sure that 787 wings and fuselage will never be on fire in flight, which is completely the opposite of what they can be sure of if it was certified as a normal freighter.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-02-16 16:52:28 and read 6518 times.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 49):
also no need to prove fire containment and a host of other things that separate 787 specific parts hauling vs general cargo. The FAA can be sure that 787 wings and fuselage will never be on fire in flight, which is completely the opposite of what they can be sure of if it was certified as a normal freighter.

I believe the B-747LCF has a fire surpression system. It is still required by the FAA

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-16 18:08:04 and read 6466 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 50):
I believe the B-747LCF has a fire surpression system. It is still required by the FAA

That area is unpressurized, so not sure how well a fire could take hold at cruise altitude.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: rwessel
Posted 2013-02-17 01:37:52 and read 6053 times.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 40):
I agree to a point: Boeing toyed with the idea of an 85m 747-600X in the mid 1990s, so the fact that they only stretched the 747-8 to 76 metres is curious. If they had stretched the 747-8 further - say 80m, there would be a bigger size differentiation between it and the 777X, putting the 747-8 closer to A380 territory than it is to the 777.

While the -8 is about the same length as the proposed -500X, the -500X and -600X had much larger wings than the -8, both in span (to about 77m) and a substantially increased chord. With the -8 wing, a 85m long aircraft would suffer significantly reduced range.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 47):
If Boeing needed larger diameter engines to be flown, I'm sure that certification wouldn't be a problem, after all whats the difference between parts for a 787 and any other Boeing aircraft ?

A substantially bigger fan would fit inside either a 777 or 747, but the door would be a problem. Certifying a bigger cargo door for one or the other of those and building a few examples would likely be the simplest solution. If the managed the insane thing they did to the SOFIA 747-SP, they ought to be able to manage a bit bigger cargo door.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-02-17 01:47:33 and read 6031 times.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 36):
If Boeing tells the FAA that the 747-8 is the 5th version of the 747-100 (after the -200, -300, -400 and SP), then it is a 50-year old design. If it isn't a 50-year old design, then it needed to be certified as a clean-sheet aircraft. That simple.

Boeing really had no choice - the 748i, as built, could not be certified to today's standards.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-02-17 01:48:20 and read 6048 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 37):
They couldn´t make the 748 too good, that would have killed the 777-X

Seriously?

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 40):
I agree to a point: Boeing toyed with the idea of an 85m 747-600X in the mid 1990s, so the fact that they only stretched the 747-8 to 76 metres is curious. If they had stretched the 747-8 further - say 80m, there would be a bigger size differentiation between it and the 777X, putting the 747-8 closer to A380 territory than it is to the 777.

Boeing's '90's forays into the "future 747" market don't appear to have been that well received (which is part of the argument used against the A380's creation)
They chose to go down the 787 route via the sonic cruiser.
Once that decision was made, the resources were no longer available to launch a massively changed 747 derivative.
The 748i was IMO the result of Boeing looking for the maximum bang for the minimum buck, and of course, it almost certainly wouldn't exist without the donor engines from the 787 being made available..

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 43):
I think the best Boeing could do now to save the 748i is to do a "simple stretch" to 80 meters

Because I would say this for the A380, I'll say it here too. IMO it's too soon to determine that 748i needs "saving".

rgds

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-17 03:44:46 and read 5815 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 55):

They could have gone the whole hog doing a 777-X style update, I am sure you know it was possible? Now the reason they went with a less advanced update we can only speculate about. The wings could probably be made lighter, so could the fuselage skin panels, maybe some internal mods like the 777-X will get as well would be doable.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: CXB77L
Posted 2013-02-17 04:49:33 and read 5687 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 56):
They could have gone the whole hog doing a 777-X style update

How on earth could that have happened when the 777X wasn't even around as a concept when the 747-8 was launched?

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-02-17 08:28:02 and read 5322 times.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 28):
I don't think an order for two VC25 replacements will make a lot of difference to a decision whether to continue or not.

Actually USAF is asking for three ships, with EIS of 2017 for the first. Given how profitable those frames will be, both at initial sale and over their lifetime, they'll be sure to find a way to satisfy the need, IMHO.

According to http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/je...k-begins-air-force-one-replacement the Pentagon has budgeted $757 million through 2017 for the first phase of the Air Force One replacement.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 28):
On the matter of a VC25 replacement, is one really on the horizon ?

With these things you can't be sure till the money changes hands, but it seems so.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 55):
The 748i was IMO the result of Boeing looking for the maximum bang for the minimum buck, and of course, it almost certainly wouldn't exist without the donor engines from the 787 being made available..

And unfortunately the resulting execution didn't meet the "minimum buck" standard.

Quoting sweair (Reply 56):
They could have gone the whole hog doing a 777-X style update, I am sure you know it was possible? Now the reason they went with a less advanced update we can only speculate about. The wings could probably be made lighter, so could the fuselage skin panels, maybe some internal mods like the 777-X will get as well would be doable.

I think every option was explored, going all the way back to the time where they were talking about partnering with Airbus on what became the A380, to building their own all-new VLA, to the "777X" approach of new wings, etc.

Bottom line is that the business case for those things didn't make sense. I think if Boeing knew what building the 747-8 would cost, and knew what the 787 is still costing, and knew about the post-GFC economy, they wouldn't have gone forward with the 747-8.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 57):
How on earth could that have happened when the 777X wasn't even around as a concept when the 747-8 was launched?

I think the idea was to re-wing the 747 just as per the 777X. Of course at that time they had not built nor flown the 787 wing so it would have been a much larger challenge back then, IMHO.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-02-17 08:54:46 and read 5270 times.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 57):
How on earth could that have happened when the 777X wasn't even around as a concept when the 747-8 was launched?

Variations of the 777 have been around for years, before the 747-8. Likewise longer variation for the 747 go back to the 1970s. The 747-8 does not represent some sort of magical line in the sand, Boeing has been looking at improving all of its product lineup over the years.

What the 777X will turn out to be will be different IMHO to what is being discussed today before it gets into service.

I could digress on how this happen in different companies, however that would be off topic.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-17 09:05:18 and read 5219 times.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 57):

The 77W was the big seller when the 748i was launched, now how do you update a product that it wont take sales from your golden egg? Maybe by keeping it on the safe side in terms of efficiency hauling a 77W load?

I still feel that the 748i could have been made better as an update.

Just saying, you don´t have to agree.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-17 09:13:12 and read 5206 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 37):
They couldn´t make the 748 too good, that would have killed the 777-X. That is my theory. CFRP wings, Al-Li skin etc
Quoting astuteman (Reply 55):
Seriously?
Quoting sweair (Reply 56):
They could have gone the whole hog doing a 777-X style update, I am sure you know it was possible?

They planned that with the 747-500X and 747-600X at a projected cost of $12 billion. Add a decade of inflation to that figure and there was no way Boeing's Board of Directors was going to approve such an extensive upgrade.

Heck, the 747X program of 2000 was planned to be north of $5 billion and the Japanese were willing to pick up $3.5 billion of that and Boeing still didn't launch it even though LH said they'd buy it.



Quoting sweair (Reply 60):
The 77W was the big seller when the 748i was launched, now how do you update a product that it wont take sales from your golden egg? Maybe by keeping it on the safe side in terms of efficiency hauling a 77W load?

If Boeing made the 747-8 better than the 777-300ER, it would have become their new "golden egg".

It makes no sense to create a new version of the 747 that is at a disadvantage to the 777-300ER. They already had that with the 747-400.

[Edited 2013-02-17 09:22:55]

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-02-17 09:15:27 and read 5182 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 58):
Actually USAF is asking for three ships, with EIS of 2017 for the first. Given how profitable those frames will be, both at initial sale and over their lifetime

How profitable will they be? It is my understanding the current two frames generated substantial losses to Boeing.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-02-17 10:03:04 and read 5055 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 60):
The 77W was the big seller when the 748i was launched, now how do you update a product that it wont take sales from your golden egg? Maybe by keeping it on the safe side in terms of efficiency hauling a 77W load?

The 747-8 is different enough from the 777W to be in its own market space. It has ~50 more seats (depending on how you set it up) and has some pretty obvious advantages for the cargo industry. It also has disadvantages like having two more engines to purchase and maintain.

Quoting sweair (Reply 60):
I still feel that the 748i could have been made better as an update.

Sure, any product out there can be made better. Boeing made a decision at the time as to what the market would support, and tried to make a product for that market. As above, if they knew where the product and market would end up, I doubt they would have launched the product. This makes it hard for me to see why you're suggesting they should have put even more money into the product for not a lot of gain. The sweet spot of the market, IMHO, is the largest twin you can make, and the 747-8 was never going to be that.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-17 10:30:43 and read 4960 times.

A super critical cfrp wing could have worked on the 748? More lift for the somewhat low thrust.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2013-02-17 11:02:49 and read 4869 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
It has, ironically, also knifed the low end of the 748F market that doesn't quite need the lift at range (e.g., FedEx and I suspect one day UPS).

If you need to lift 100 tons of "fluff" and keep it up for 10 hours, there is no better tool than a 777F. Hence the reason DHL, FedEx and TNT love theirs to bits. UPS will undoubtedly follow suit once their MD-11s are up for replacement.

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 33):
What? How is that possible? If it can't fit through the nose of a 747 then how could it fit through the side door on a 777F?

That must be a mistake. Otherwise, what advantage would the 747 swing-nose have over an A388F or any other large freighter, for that matter?

Nose-door measurements of a 747F is only 325cm (L) by 254cm (H). The side cargo door is 341 by 310. Neither of those dimensions, however, are enough to support loading of a engine and fan. For that you need a 777F, which has a SCD with dimensions 372 by 315. That allows for loading of all current engines with fan attached, except for the GE90-110.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: PW100
Posted 2013-02-17 14:01:41 and read 4545 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 57):
And unfortunately the resulting execution didn't meet the "minimum buck" standard

Good thing they did not go for the maximum buck standard then!

Given the 787 experience, how delayed would such a maximum standard have been? Just to imagine SOB problems if they would have gone for a full CFRP wing . . . .

PW100

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: speedygonzales
Posted 2013-02-17 14:07:03 and read 4544 times.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 64):
Nose-door measurements of a 747F is only 325cm (L) by 254cm (H). The side cargo door is 341 by 310. Neither of those dimensions, however, are enough to support loading of a engine and fan. For that you need a 777F, which has a SCD with dimensions 372 by 315. That allows for loading of all current engines with fan attached, except for the GE90-110.

For comparison, the planned cargo door dimentions for A380F was 432cm wide * 254cm high on the main deck and 380cm wide * 218cm high on the upper deck.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3837109/a380-Airport-Planning

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: art
Posted 2013-02-18 11:19:48 and read 3948 times.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 54):
IMO it's too soon to determine that 748i needs "saving".

As long as the 748 line remains open, Boeing can slot in 748-i frames when required, can't they? The reported problem is lack of freighter orders to take up planned production.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-18 14:28:45 and read 3677 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 51):
That area is unpressurized, so not sure how well a fire could take hold at cruise altitude.

That simplifies the cert.   
But one still has to fight a fire on approach.

Serious question, are the cargo loads limited to reduce the needs of the fire supression? e.g., a 787 barrel only has so much fire potential versus pallets of clothing next to a generator... I ask as I worked on a program that needed *far* more than the normal fire suppression system due to the payload including stuff that burned... (One off design.) So the opposite must be true.


Quoting Revelation (Reply 57):
Actually USAF is asking for three ships, with EIS of 2017 for the first. Given how profitable those frames will be, both at initial sale and over their lifetime, they'll be sure to find a way to satisfy the need, IMHO.

I'll look forward to seeing that. I'm sur eit will happen.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 64):
If you need to lift 100 tons of "fluff" and keep it up for 10 hours, there is no better tool than a 777F.

   Although your use of "fluff" makes me    Its a certain film job... (I am from Los Angeles.)

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-18 16:59:20 and read 3506 times.

Funny - I started a thread with the same starter ladt Thursday and it got deleted because the warning was already discussed in the 747 production thread. It died very quickly in that thread, though.

To me, Boeing's warning on the ine hand means that slot availability is indeed an advantage the 747-8i has over the A380. On the other hand, this seems down to a simple lack of interest in the type, so it's not really an advantage after all. Also note how Boeing only mentioned freighters in ther SEC filing, not pax. Dors make you wonder about the commitmemts and new orders they talked about before Farnborough thst never really materialised. If they were any cliser to firming those they probsbly wouldn't have needed to submit the filing to begin with.

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2013-02-18 17:10:01 and read 3485 times.

Wow, the 748 is not selling as well as expected?? Who knew!

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: neutrino
Posted 2013-02-19 06:37:13 and read 3142 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 68):
Although your use of "fluff" makes me    Its a certain film job... (I am from Los Angeles.)

You mean fluffers?
That crossed my mind too.   

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-02-19 07:18:52 and read 3025 times.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 70):
Wow, the 748 is not selling as well as expected?? Who knew!

Yep, and the 787 battery needs fixing too!  

Topic: RE: Boeing Needs To Sell More 747
Username: astuteman
Posted 2013-02-19 10:38:28 and read 2786 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 68):
Although your use of "fluff" makes me Its a certain film job... (I am from Los Angeles.)

tickled me, this did  


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/