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Topic: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-02-18 14:48:47 and read 20272 times.

Looks like EasyJet is leaning towards Boeing for their fleet replacement or is sending a very loud message to Airbus to lower their price.

EasyJet spokesperson says they are "dead serious" about shifting back to Boeing. Should be a fun competition to watch.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/585e2...91-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2LIGA0HKZ

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-18 14:53:42 and read 20246 times.

Well easyJet did start with the Boeing 737 before moving to the A319-100 (and, later, A320-200).

Perhaps slot availability issues for the A320neo family is coming into play? The article states U2 wants to make a major expansion of their fleet and Boeing might have better availability in the timeframe U2 is looking at taking deliveries.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-02-18 15:09:27 and read 20053 times.

Every single-fleet type airline is always dead serious about shopping at the competition of its sole supplier. What else can they do to have some leverage at the negotiating table?

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: PlaneAdmirer
Posted 2013-02-18 15:22:39 and read 19883 times.

Ok.. There are three assumptions:

1. Stitch's about availability.
2. This is all about price.
3. They have had both planes and prefer Boeing. If this were the case, would they have gone public to get a better offer out of Airbus?

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: flyingcello
Posted 2013-02-18 15:41:09 and read 19715 times.

Of course EZY are serious about being willing to buy Boeing, but the equation is simple...

Boeing price + conversion training

[Edited 2013-02-18 15:45:08]

[Edited 2013-02-18 15:46:14]

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-02-18 15:45:29 and read 19662 times.

Quoting flyingcello (Reply 4):
Boeing price + conversion training

+ Availability

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: rotating14
Posted 2013-02-18 16:14:04 and read 19448 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 5):

     

That's the driver. This article basically says why Boeing would have this to lose.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/biz/insi...ebruary331.xml&section=uaebusiness

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-18 16:15:43 and read 19438 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 5):
+ Availability

I'm failing to see the rush though, with such a young fleet of Airbus narrowbodies.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-18 16:28:43 and read 19326 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
I'm failing to see the rush though, with such a young fleet of Airbus narrowbodies.

Carriers such as U2 like turning over their fleet quickly so they can avoid having to deal with the increasing maintenance costs (which is also one of the reason why they negotiate so much for lower prices and revel in "raping" the manufacturers )

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-18 16:35:29 and read 19269 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 8):
Carriers such as U2 like turning over their fleet quickly so they can avoid having to deal with the increasing maintenance costs

Perhaps makes good sense. I guess I'm just used to carriers such as Southwest keeping their planes going until the very end of their useful life, in most cases.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-02-18 17:34:19 and read 18998 times.

I would think carefully about this story as it could well be the work of Stelios as he continues to feud with the board.

He has made several anti airbus statements in the last few weeks without the backing of the board.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-18 17:57:27 and read 18869 times.

This was a 3 way competition per prior discussion:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_11_21_2012_p01-01-519531.xml

But seems to be 2-way after a few months of review:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...os-with-plan-for-new-aircraft.html

Quoting phxa340 (Thread starter):
EasyJet spokesperson says they are "dead serious" about shifting back to Boeing. Should be a fun competition to watch.

I imagine it is all in the negotiations... Nothing wrong with trying to wring out a few million more out of a deal.   

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 5):
Quoting flyingcello (Reply 4):
Boeing price + conversion training

+ Availability

   vs. the same on the Airbus side. This would be a big deal for Boeing to win back...

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
I'm failing to see the rush though, with such a young fleet of Airbus narrowbodies.

As already noted, U2 turns over their fleet quickly. There are also a number of fuel burn improvements coming into the fleet that with the right deal the lowest cost operation could be a rapid fleet turnover with the right financing.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):
He has made several anti airbus statements in the last few weeks without the backing of the board.

I do not suspect him. I think that negotiations are enough. The incumbent always has an advantage. Airbus will be less aggressive due to their backlog.

Its looking as if sticking with GE engines might indeed pay off for U2...


Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: RickNRoll
Posted 2013-02-18 18:10:58 and read 18793 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Perhaps slot availability issues for the A320neo family is coming into play? The article states U2 wants to make a major expansion of their fleet and Boeing might have better availability in the timeframe U2 is looking at taking deliveries.

Such are the joys of a duopoly. In the end, neither Boeing and Airbus can lose, as long as they have a reasonably competitive product.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-18 18:37:03 and read 18668 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):
I would think carefully about this story as it could well be the work of Stelios as he continues to feud with the board.

He has made several anti airbus statements in the last few weeks without the backing of the board.

The article states that Mr. Stelios is against a purchase from either OEM as he feels the current fleet is too large and modern enough so I would think that would preclude him from floating a story for a large order from Boeing.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-02-18 20:36:29 and read 18376 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):
He has made several anti airbus statements in the last few weeks without the backing of the board.

The statements that claimed they were leaning towards Boeing came from a Board representative per the article ...

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2013-02-18 20:59:25 and read 18309 times.

If they were to switch back to Boeing three things were to happen:

Immediate availibility
prices that equate to Ryanair's discount Boing gave them for their big orders
covering a portion of the training costs needed to train crews

If Boeing is willing to give in to these three, then this deal is Boeings. A couple million per a/c would equate to a lot of savings to an airline like U2. I have a feeling this artcle means one of two things: Its time for Airbus to lower their prices and up delivery schedules or loose a customer. At an airline like U2 its all about the dollar they save. Whoever saves them the most will win the order.

KH

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-02-18 21:16:27 and read 18228 times.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 15):
Whoever saves them the most will win the order.

+ Boeing offering a very competitive product but yes ... this is probably Boeing's to lose.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: Aesma
Posted 2013-02-18 21:40:09 and read 18128 times.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 15):
prices that equate to Ryanair's discount Boing gave them for their big orders

Well I'm not sure "Boing" is ready to go there ever again.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-02-19 03:11:09 and read 16103 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):

He has made several anti airbus statements in the last few weeks without the backing of the board.

IIRC, he is not anti-Airbus in principle, but does not like the addition of larger 320s capacity-wise and because he thinks that in the 180/190 seat category the Boeing 737-800 is the more economic product.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: chiad
Posted 2013-02-19 03:19:26 and read 15934 times.

I think EasyJet have found that it's less lucrative to be a customer next in line when combined backlog of a certain for two airframers is more than 3000 frames.
IMO neither Airbus nor Boeing really "don't need any more orders" and probably is less willing to lower their prices.
That doesn't mean that they will turn a huge customer like Easy Jet down. They wont of course but ...
 

[Edited 2013-02-19 03:21:04]

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2013-02-19 03:54:22 and read 15274 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 2):
Every single-fleet type airline is always dead serious about shopping at the competition of its sole supplier.

With the exception of the worlds largest single-fleet operator, of course, who has an almost religious affiliation with its sole supplier. Do they even have the phone number for Toulouse? Does Toulouse have theirs?

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2013-02-19 03:57:04 and read 15231 times.

Late build 737 NGs may suit well at a low price - most of their flights are short so they don't need MAX range.

Many years ago I recall they acquired around 10 of the last 733s built in similar circumstances.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: gr09
Posted 2013-02-19 04:02:18 and read 15133 times.

It's a part of negotiation. EasyJet has to show that they have no problem switching over to Boeing in case they get better price. And I'm sure they are ready to do it if the overall offer is better. That doesn't mean they are ruling out Airbus at this moment.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: Pugman211
Posted 2013-02-19 04:04:45 and read 15042 times.

They are still recieving new deliveries of A320 aircraft at the moment, so when are they looking to renew the current fleet?

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: RomeoBravo
Posted 2013-02-19 04:09:30 and read 14965 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 16):
this is probably Boeing's to lose.
Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 15):
If Boeing is willing to give in to these three, then this deal is Boeings.

U2's public negotiating strategy is evidently very effective.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-02-19 04:34:53 and read 15308 times.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 21):
Late build 737 NGs may suit well at a low price

Yeah they loved the last few so much they scrapped them  

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2013-02-19 04:42:19 and read 15045 times.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 21):
Late build 737 NGs may suit well at a low price - most of their flights are short so they don't need MAX range.

But all of their flights need to benefit from the 10-15% reduction in fuel burn a MAX or neo is promising, so what's that got to do with the price of milk?

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-02-19 04:55:26 and read 15148 times.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 15):
Immediate availibility

Huh? How exactly does Boeing offer 'immediate availability'.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 18):
IIRC, he is not anti-Airbus in principle

How is he 'not anti-Airbus' when he's been quoted in the last few days saying "I just want someone who hates Airbus" when discussing the replacement Chairman?

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 6):
This article basically says why Boeing would have this to lose.

Well, you have to take ANYTHING Saj Ahmad says with a large grain of salt. He neatly compares availability of 737NGs with A320neos and suggests that 737MAX would be available to Fly Dubai in 2017 (quietly forgetting a backlog of over 1,000 that would need to be delivered first).

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 14):
The statements that claimed they were leaning towards Boeing came from a Board representative per the article ...

Well, unless the article has changed, I read nothing in it that indicates a preference either way.   

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: Aesma
Posted 2013-02-19 05:17:36 and read 14626 times.

I would add to the title that even if EZY were to order hundreds of Max, they wouldn't have an "all-Boeing fleet" before many years.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: msp747
Posted 2013-02-19 06:24:24 and read 13303 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
I'm failing to see the rush though, with such a young fleet of Airbus narrowbodies.

Weren't their 737's brand new when they made the decision to go with Airbus? Seems like they don't care, as long as they get the best price on brand new planes. I also wonder how many of their pilots would still be fairly familiar with the 737. I know they'd still need training, but it would be interesting to see if it was just a refresher course or a full on retraining

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: GCT64
Posted 2013-02-19 06:35:45 and read 13065 times.

Before I saw this thread, I read the FT article on my flight up from London. My understanding from both the article about fleet replacement and another article about Easyjet further on in the FT is:

(a) EZY will pick one of Boeing or Airbus but not both - so it is a ~250 unit v. zero sales opportunity for Airbus or Boeing.
(b) Stelios doesn't think they need to order anything from either (but then he just seems to think the opposite to whatever the board want!).
(c) Neither Airbus nor Boeing have an advantage nor does Easy have a preference - it is all about the numbers (which is a bit unfortunate for a.netters as we aren't privy to those, so we have no valid opinions to offer).

Now I will shut up until the order is announced (then we know who offered the best numbers) or Stelios gets the board to change their mind (little chance of that happening though, IMHO).

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: SASMD82
Posted 2013-02-19 07:00:03 and read 12472 times.

So does it make sense to lower prices when the production line of the A32X is outsold onto 2020?

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: dougbr2006
Posted 2013-02-19 07:01:54 and read 12500 times.

I would have thought that Airbus may be in a better position to ramp up production than Boeing.

One must remember that Airbus has two production assembly lines in Europe: Toulouse, France and Hamburg, Germany; which have been complemented by an additional facility in China. Joining this network will be a new A320 Family production facility in Mobile, Alabama USA, which is to build A319, A320 and A321 jetliners beginning in 2015.

So I think with respect of being able to open up slots for a very important customer perhaps Airbus has the edge.

One has to remember the costs involved in swapping fleets. Its not too bad if your initial fleet is small and now your aiming big, but to have mixed fleet maintenance is never easy and defiantly not cheap. Easyjet's Boeing fleet at the time was no where near as large as the Airbus fleet is today.

I guess its the usual syndrome of shake a stick at you current suppler to get them to continue to give good pricing policy.

With all the Issues at Boeing re : B787 negative until over 600 aircraft delivered, plus the current grounding, the B7478 slots not being filled and possible production cut on those, can Boeing afford to under cut Airbus just to fill Neo slots. I would think they might perhaps prefer that Airbus takes this rather than giving the aircraft away. There are many more Neo customers out there that will pay top dollar and that's what Boeing needs right now!

Just my       worth!

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: chieft
Posted 2013-02-19 07:15:19 and read 12176 times.

Remembering the original Airbus deal easyjet negotiated, the surely consider a similar thing with switching back to Boeing.

Then Airbus gave them a deal you can't refuse.

A discussion about it you'll find here: Easyjet's Airbus Deal Questions (by Ikarus Mar 1 2003 in Civil Aviation)

The deal then was:

"a) Easyjet pays Airbus the list price, but then gets paid back the price reduction. Isn't that a bit idiotic, paying and getting repaid?!? Are there no bank charges for multinational corporations?
b) Airbus guarantees Easyjet the residual value of their 737-300 fleet, with an option to buy them should Easyjet fail to find a different taker
c) none of the planes are actually financed yet and Easyjet plans to 1) pay Airbus, 2) sell the plane to a lessor and 3) lease the plane back from the lessor, and do this for every one of the remaining 12 Boeings and 120 Airbuses to be delivered."

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-19 08:04:25 and read 11232 times.

Quoting dougbr2006 (Reply 32):
I would have thought that Airbus may be in a better position to ramp up production than Boeing.

Remember it is not just about final assembly lines. All the final assembly lines in the world mean nothing if your suppliers can't increase their production. Also Airbus has to (politically) tread carefully in regards to expanding the Chinese and soon Mobile lines. They don't want to ruffle feathers with their unions and European politicians.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2013-02-19 08:28:07 and read 10669 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 27):

Huh? How exactly does Boeing offer 'immediate availability'.

By that I mean offering slots within an allocated time frame. Sorry for not being more psecific.

KH

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2013-02-19 08:49:55 and read 10282 times.

How many outstanding A320 family options do they currently have?

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: babybus
Posted 2013-02-19 08:58:37 and read 10088 times.

I don't know how Easyjet contracts work but by changing the aircraft type they may be able to shed pilots and start again with lower wages.

I think their comment about changing to Boeing is just showing they are open to suggestions. Airbus don't have a done deal.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: goosebayguy
Posted 2013-02-19 11:08:56 and read 7771 times.

All this talk of Boeing having immediate availability is totally insane. They do not. Neither does Airbus and this has got me thinking. Airlines are expanding at a phenomenal rate in recent years. Large orders are being placed yet neither Boeing or Airbus are coping very well in fulfilling orders.

Airbus really could do with opening another assembly plant. I would suggest the Uk for this because its supply chain wouldn't become too stretched. Add in the ability to have a reasonably stable currency against the US $ and there are many advantages. Airbus really need to get ahead of the curve here or face losing business. Boeing though have taken their eyes off the ball its 787 problems are diverting it from increasing 737 production in more plants or further afield.

Both manufacturers have great products but the worlds airlines are evolving far faster than their suppliers.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-02-19 11:17:27 and read 7670 times.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 38):
Airbus really could do with opening another assembly plant. I would suggest the Uk for this because its supply chain wouldn't become too stretched. Add in the ability to have a reasonably stable currency against the US $ and there are many advantages.

Boat has sailed and UK has already lost the opportunity.

Very soon EADS will have final assembly lines in Toulouse, Hamburg, Tianjin in China and Mobile in USA ! .

As for Currency the €- $ is more stable than £-$ !

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: goosebayguy
Posted 2013-02-19 11:52:23 and read 6868 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 39):
Very soon EADS will have final assembly lines in Toulouse, Hamburg, Tianjin in China and Mobile in USA !

Yes but still its not enough. The UK makes perfect sense for the next plant.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-02-19 12:37:40 and read 6098 times.

As well as financial numbers, they'll also need to look at performance; if - as I suspect - they are looking at the 737-8MAX and the A320NEO, then I think the A320NEO may have an advantage on the grounds of performance, UNLESS the -8MAX has significantly better field performance than the current 737-800. There are several airports which the 320 can serve, but the 738 cannot (or not with certain carriers - FR, for example, has a min. runway length of 6,000'). Unless the -8MAX can do significantly better than that, there will be a number of destinations, such as JER and IOM, which it will be unable to serve.

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: sandyb123
Posted 2013-02-19 12:55:57 and read 5752 times.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 40):
Yes but still its not enough. The UK makes perfect sense for the next plant.

Yes but the major cost is skilled manpower which makes the Uk very expensive as an option. Given the recent failure with the BAE Systems deal I don't see Airbus eyeing the UK for end of line manufacturing.

U2 has preferred a single type for obvious commonality reasons. However as they are considering Boeing would another airframer else potentially meet the bill? Would the 120 seat Bombardier C series fit? There is capacity in the order book and they could probably negotiate a good deal given the sluggish order book thus far.

Sandyb123

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-19 13:44:02 and read 5025 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 39):
Very soon EADS will have final assembly lines in Toulouse, Hamburg, Tianjin in China and Mobile in USA.
Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 40):
Yes but still its not enough. The UK makes perfect sense for the next plant.

TLS cannot be expanded because of a an agreement between France and Germany on the A350XWB and XFW may be at capacity, but TJN and MOB can certainly be expanded (MOB hasn't even been built yet, so they can just scale it up before construction starts).

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: f4f3a
Posted 2013-02-19 15:05:33 and read 3690 times.

It seems like bombardier are out of the running which is a shame as I think the cs300 looks like it will be a great aircraft.
I just can't see airbus losing this order. Boeing will have to give a good price plus training and maintenance costs airbus only have to match it to win.
If easy do place a very large order 200 plus including options then will that leave fr out in the cold.
This would give easy an advantage as I don't see airbus dealing with fr.

Will the decision come at the AGm this month???

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: fruitbat
Posted 2013-02-20 13:23:46 and read 2859 times.

Looks like Stelios is beginning to lose the plot on this one.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...yjet-agm-stelios-boeing-dreamliner

I don't quite understand how the introduction of a new aircraft type will impact on the delivery of another, we'll established type? Surely he's not suggesting that EasyJet are considering purchasing 787s.... (!!!!!)

Topic: RE: EasyJet Considers All-Boeing Fleet
Username: f4f3a
Posted 2013-02-20 14:55:25 and read 2554 times.

They are def not ordering 787s that's for sure. I don't really get his point as neither the max or the neo is a new plane
So won't likely be delayed. Stelios is just usin this for exposure to attack the board for some reason.

There seems to be rumours that Boeing are indeed the front runner at moment as they are offering a better deal.
Although with airlines ordering large numbers this is a sellers market . Lufthansa is going to order 100 soon so it will be hard to get the deal they got before


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