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Topic: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: OOer
Posted 2013-02-11 07:51:39 and read 13802 times.

http://www.demerarawaves.com/index.p...s-georgetown-new-york-flights.html

"Delta Airlines has decided to pull out of Guyana, ending its five year old direct charter service between New York and Georgetown, well-placed sources said."

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-02-11 07:54:15 and read 13795 times.

Can't say I'm surprised. Seems like a 75E wasn't a great plane for the route to begin with.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: OOer
Posted 2013-02-11 08:00:21 and read 13713 times.

Why wasn't the 75E a great plane for it?

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-02-11 08:01:53 and read 13719 times.

I don't know if it was a very business-heavy route. It seemed like a domestic 757 would've been better. But that is only my thought, I could be completely off base.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: OOer
Posted 2013-02-11 08:04:21 and read 13653 times.

A 757 was originally used but was constantly weight restricted because of heavy cargo loads. At times DL even put a 767 on the route.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-02-11 08:12:58 and read 13566 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 4):

See, I didn't know that. Thanks!  

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-11 08:17:24 and read 13519 times.

BW always owned the market with aggressive fares, but I thought they were still good enough for DL. Guess not.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-02-11 10:53:54 and read 12891 times.

what do they mean by charter route

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: Tdan
Posted 2013-02-11 11:46:51 and read 12676 times.

Surprising that it didn't work out for DL as the fares seemed to be pretty good. It's a tough market because the traffic is so concentrated and more or less controlled by a few travel agencies. As a result, the route has been an airline graveyard since carriers have very little leverage to generate profits. Just as Mav points out, BW has owned this traffic forever and they can be more aggressive in price since they supplement it with POS traffic.

Additionally, traffic isn't exactly growing and the market seems to be aging a bit.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-11 12:22:19 and read 12528 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):

Actually BW didnot "always" own the JFK GEO market. They built market share by offering more flights (when they went double daily), lower airfares, and more liberal baggage allowances. With nonstops, instead of via POS) they have now cemented this.

BW was usually the least preferred option (when there was DL and another service by a charter) as the competition offered nonstops, while they offered a POS stop.

Low fares that both BW and DL offered to fend off Ezjet, and now continued low fares by BW to ensure that its nonstops are full) is probably what drove DL off.

What used to be a high yield route US$700-800 in NON PEAK periods, has become much lower yielding.

[Edited 2013-02-11 12:24:18]

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: OOer
Posted 2013-02-11 12:25:43 and read 12508 times.

It's interesting that apparently this route is not profitable.

I just looked up fares online just to see.

JFK-GEO R/T on 4/22-4/29 = $601 (2,539 miles)

JFK-LAX R/T on 4/22-4/29 = $327 (2,475 miles)

Same distance, same equipment, GEO staffed with 1 less flight attendant (Savings of about $300 each way for Delta), fares on GEO about double what they are on LAX, and the route isn't profitable?

I think something else is going on. If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and smells like a duck...

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-11 12:45:21 and read 12389 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 10):

Remember that there are many on the LAX route who pay way more than the lowest coach fare as many travel upfront, or need fares that allow flexibility as they travel on business.

GEO every one pays the listed fare, except when the plane is full, as it is basically expat Guyanese returning home on visits. DL needs to match BW, which needs to fill is 221 seats on its nonstop as Trinis arenot likely to use bthat flight.

DL used to charge 50% more and so apparently have decided that, with the route no longer high yielding, it no longer makes sense.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-11 12:45:50 and read 12386 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 9):
Actually BW didnot "always" own the JFK GEO market

It has owned the market for years, before, during, and after DL (and EZ, who I forgot and/or blinked) offered nonstops.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 9):
BW was usually the least preferred option

Clearly it's quite preferred as even with a nonstop on DL it still commands the majority of the market

Quoting OOer (Reply 10):

Same distance, same equipment, GEO staffed with 1 less flight attendant (Savings of about $300 each way for Delta), fares on GEO about double what they are on LAX, and the route isn't profitable?

   My hunch is two things: 1) the LAX market has some very high fare walkups/corporate traffic that GEO definitely does not outside of peak season traffic and 2) you're not seeing the consolidator/off tariff fares that may be what most of the passengers may be buying.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: airfrancejfk
Posted 2013-02-11 13:14:04 and read 12255 times.

Sad but not surprising. Delta really hasn't changed its operations since starting ops to GEO 5 years ago, while BW has gone from once to twice daily from JFK with non stop flights included as well. The nonstop thing was Delta's main drawing point and BW is matching and surpassing then point for point. Include BW's variety of flights both direct, nonstop and connections via POS along with a more lenient baggage allowance and you have your answer. BW's additional feed from POS is a huge money maker for them on the route as is their ability to uplift fuel at a much lower fee than is available in GEO.

Lets also not forget that the Guyana government officially gave flag carrier status to BW a few months back and the writing was pretty much on the wall. Still, sad to see GEO go back to a one airline operation.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-11 13:54:50 and read 12074 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):

Maverick I am Guyanese and I am quite aware of which airline Guyanese used. The JFK GEO route is a 2 carrier route. In days past when ever a third carrier entered the market with nonstp charters the airline which suffered was BWIA. Why? because of its dreaded POS stop which Guyanese despised..


I do not know if you have a Caribbean background but I can discuss the "But Will It Arrive", "Be Waiting Indefinietly at Airport", "BetterWalk If Able", that drove many away from the old BWIA. This including Guyanese, who had the additional issue of the cruelty endured at Piarco at the hands of BWIAground and T&T officials. This when ever BWIA decided to dump them when a plane, that was supposed to go to JFK with a stop in POS, was suddenly diverted upon arrival at POS. Leaving Guyanese stranded and having to sleep ON THE GROUND. Not only was I told this by Guyanese, but even BWEE staff who I met mentioned this. They because they then had to handle irate passengers because of factors beyond their control.

BWIA dominated the overall market into GEO but not the JFK market, except in short periods when various fly by night charters collapsed.

In fact the reason for Carib Air aggressively going after EZjet was in realization of previous times when the previous BWIA was complacent and suffered. When Universal came in, they pushed out BWIA out of the JFK GEO. Ditto when Travelspan came in. NORTH AMERICAN became the leading carrier to GEO from JFK before they pulled out.

Caribbean Air aggressively countered Ez by cutting fares and introducing nonstops. They did so at great cost as the wet lease expenses and the sharp drop in fares must have hurt them. They have achieved their goal which was killing off Ezjet and have a bonus with the withdrawal of DL.


Note that BWIA had 16 flights per week out of JFK with decent numbers going into BGI and ANU. Carib Air, with no service to those two islands, is carrying 50% more on its E/Caribbean routes, much of this due to increased traffic into GEO ex JFK. .While there has been some increase in TOTAL JFK GEO traffic, it isnt up 50%.

Quoting airfrancejfk (Reply 13):

This is exactly the point. The NEW BW did things that the OLD BWIA did not do and as a result now dominate the JFK GEO route, which means that for the FIRST time, they will likely have a monopoly on that route....that is untl some other lunatic thinks that they can start another fly by night.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-02-11 14:08:37 and read 11948 times.

Im surprised they held on for 5 years ! Guyana-USA/Canada is a very hard route to maintain.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 14):
Why? because of its dreaded POS stop which Guyanese despised..

Indeed my relatives always hated POS transit.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
what do they mean by charter route

Typo/error . It was scheduled.

Still its a shame that a major carrier such as DL and a major Alliance member will pull out it is certainly bad news for GEO.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-11 14:39:56 and read 11544 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 14):
Maverick I am Guyanese and I am quite aware of which airline Guyanese used. The JFK GEO route is a 2 carrier route. In days past when ever a third carrier entered the market with nonstp charters the airline which suffered was BWIA. Why? because of its dreaded POS stop which Guyanese despised..

Believe me, I've heard this story a million times before, whether it's every Latin American saying how awful AA is, or PIT pax wishing for an alternative to US, or any number of markets where people are just clamoring for competition. And what happens? People don't put their money where their mouth is, and continue flying the incumbent carrier. People may not like BW, and I don't doubt that, but they certainly haven't stopped flying BW (or AA or US or whatever) either. Since 2008 BW has had well over half of the market, regardless of any other nonstop, so no matter how much people despise it, the overwhelming majority of them are giving BW their money.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: BigMac
Posted 2013-02-11 14:55:17 and read 11336 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 14):
that is untl some other lunatic thinks that they can start another fly by night.

That will be PY I guess...  
They are planning on starting a non stop GEO-JFK route this year (with a 737?). They were/are supposed to receive a 3rd 737 this spring (I think I read in January but it's already mid February so)...

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-11 15:36:10 and read 10922 times.

Quoting MaverickM11
(Reply 16):


With maybe 100k passengers traveling between JFK/FLL/MIA and GEo it isnt a bad route, especially as most are out of JFK. It just cant support more than 2 carriers.

Now you modify your statement to "since 2008". That is very different from saying that they "Always", because then you would have to have included the period between 2002-2007 when they (BWIA) was a distant third on the JFK GEO.


So by 2008.

1. The Old BWIA was dead. Caribbean Airlines replaced them. The new BW has a much better on time performance, while maintaining the OLD BWIA's Caribbean ambience (warm and friendly, even in coach).

2. The assorted charters which serviced and dominated the JFK GEO (North American and Universal or Travelspan, depending on which year) were gone.

DL charged higher fares than BW and had stricter baggage, so soon lost the number 1 that North American had. And since last year they lost their main claim which was being the only credible airline with nonstops on the JFK GEO. Along the way BW increased its service to double daily vs DL with its 4X weekly and on Tu/We/Th (not popular days) plus Sunday.


DL was also more interested in high yield, rather than market share, so charged more than BW, knowing that many (40-45%) would pay the premium for the convenience of avoiding POS.


Now with nonstops on the days when people want to travel, Th/Sa/Sun, DL is history, now being the #2, so having to match the fare sof the #1. They decided to exit instead.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: martinrpo1
Posted 2013-02-11 15:39:46 and read 10899 times.

I think AA should try it from MIA. MIA-PMB and MIA-GEO could work well in AA metal.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-02-11 18:34:06 and read 9496 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 10):

It's interesting that apparently this route is not profitable.

I just looked up fares online just to see.

JFK-GEO R/T on 4/22-4/29 = $601 (2,539 miles)

JFK-LAX R/T on 4/22-4/29 = $327 (2,475 miles)

Same distance, same equipment, GEO staffed with 1 less flight attendant (Savings of about $300 each way for Delta), fares on GEO about double what they are on LAX, and the route isn't profitable?

I think something else is going on. If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and smells like a duck...

Man, that is completely not that way to analyze performance.

DOT average one-way fare for Delta in 3Q13 was $241 for JFK-LAX. JFK-GEO was less than 10% higher. However, Delta has massive economies of scale in the LAX that it does not have in GEO. Delta Load Factors for JFK-LAX were also over 8 points higher for YE Oct13. The other major factor at play here is that JFK-LAX has significant online and interline international connections at both ends. Pro-rated segment fares for these paxs likely greatly exceed the local fares. JFK-GEO, on the other hand, is primarily local traffic.

Also, Delta operates several daily flights in the JFK-LAX, some of which are going to be under-performers due to timing. This can affect overall market performance, but not impact the strategic necessity to keep the flying. Red-eyes are a great example of flying that brings down the average. On the other hand, the JFK-GEO schedule is the best its going to get.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-11 19:23:54 and read 9103 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 18):

Now you modify your statement to "since 2008".

I meant it as BW was 'always' flying a strong JFKGEO schedule, whether nonstop or via POS, while DL was flying the flight, as well as before. Regardless, the point is that despite how much people 'hate' BW and POS, they are pretty much flocking to BW versus the nonstop.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 20):

Man, that is completely not that way to analyze performance.

With a little context, it's a useful data point. But it's interesting you bring up JFKLAX, because I'm fairly confident DL is losing its shirt on both JFKGEO and JFKLAX. However, whereas GEO is almost 100% local and cutting it does nothing to the network, JFKLAX is an important component of the network that DL can't really afford not to fly.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-02-11 20:05:32 and read 8812 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
With a little context, it's a useful data point. But it's interesting you bring up JFKLAX, because I'm fairly confident DL is losing its shirt on both JFKGEO and JFKLAX. However, whereas GEO is almost 100% local and cutting it does nothing to the network, JFKLAX is an important component of the network that DL can't really afford not to fly.

But there wasn't any context. You can't take a random internet search fare and make ANY sort of reasonable assumptions about route performance. Its not remotely defensible from an analytical perspective.

I'm relatively confident that JFKLAX is a stronger performer than you think, but I think your point about network importance is totally accurate.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: FlyDeltaJets
Posted 2013-02-11 20:30:02 and read 8659 times.

When I left DL in 2009 that flight's number 1 problem was over booking. There was a nightly over-sale of at least 10 passengers. I can't say with certainty but if you bump 10 people every night from your flight that is not going to make for happy customers.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: lychemsa
Posted 2013-02-11 22:01:10 and read 8262 times.

North American pulled out. Guyana Airways went bankrupt.

A friend from Guyana prefers Delta over Caribbean Airways. Said it was awful and would only fly Delta next time.

She will be disappointed.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: peanuts
Posted 2013-02-12 02:05:20 and read 7822 times.

Can we just call it what it is...er...was without having to get analytical every time? It was simply an odd ball route. And to even compare a route like this with pricing/distance to a route like LAX is just reaching if you'd ask me.
Obviously GEO became a headache for DL that wasn't worth having.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-13 12:06:19 and read 6410 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):

Delta had a deliberate strategy of underserving the JFK GEO market, which meant that even in low periods their flights were full. This was to allow them to extort US$700-800 from COACH passengers. In fact many times folks checked DL to discover that only business class was available, so gritted their teeth to endure the POS stop over on BW.

There was always much stronger demand for a nonstop JFK GEO than DL was willing to supply. The comments made about DL overbooking and how "awful" BW was made by other posters indicates that. I can only imagine that "awful" with refrence to BW was becasue of its POS stop, as others have commented on how shabby the DL planes to GEO are,and how rudimentry their inflight service is even in business class.

This provded room for BW to gain market share. Liberal baggage policies and lower fares,plus the fact that DL was often fully booked allowed BW market share despite the dreaded POS stop. Then BW opened up double daiy service, which frther increased travel options.


Bt to say that BW "always" dopminated the route is blatantly false as between 2002/7 they were a non factor, and from 2008 made a concerted effort to gain market share.

Guyanese did and Do hate POS intransits. Why do you think that BW, at great cost to itself, introduced nonstops from YYZ and JFK, once excess capacity emerged oin these markets with the arrival of Ezjet? They have had to use wet leasees unil recently. Both BW and DL had to endure losses to protect their market share from EZjet,

.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-02-13 12:15:55 and read 6417 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 26):
Delta had a deliberate strategy of underserving the JFK GEO market, which meant that even in low periods their flights were full.

Please explain what in the hell you mean.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-13 12:44:10 and read 6362 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 26):
Delta had a deliberate strategy of underserving the JFK GEO market, which meant that even in low periods their flights were full. This was to allow them to extort US$700-800 from COACH passengers. In fact many times folks checked DL to discover that only business class was available, so gritted their teeth to endure the POS stop over on BW.

There was always much stronger demand for a nonstop JFK GEO than DL was willing to supply. The comments made about DL overbooking and how "awful" BW was made by other posters indicates that. I can only imagine that "awful" with refrence to BW was becasue of its POS stop, as others have commented on how shabby the DL planes to GEO are,and how rudimentry their inflight service is even in business class.

So everyone hates BW, but DL didn't add enough seats, DL had 'rudimentary' inflight service, and they all flew BW anyway in spite of their whinging and moaning, and now they're left with nothing but BW, which they hate. Passengers get what they pay for, so enjoy BW!

Quoting guyanam (Reply 26):
Guyanese did and Do hate POS intransits. Why do you think that BW, at great cost to itself, introduced nonstops from YYZ and JFK, once excess capacity emerged oin these markets with the arrival of Ezjet? They have had to use wet leasees unil recently. Both BW and DL had to endure losses to protect their market share from EZjet,

A quick google search of EZjet turns up links to stories about embezzlement, accusations, and their website doesn't allow bookings after 2012. I don't think any one was worried about EZjet doing anything,.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-02-13 17:16:42 and read 6137 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):

BW always owned the market with aggressive fares, but I thought they were still good enough for DL. Guess not.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
Clearly it's quite preferred as even with a nonstop on DL it still commands the majority of the market

= You do realize that BWIA is still subsidized and does unfair competition. They pay 60c (or something similarly absurd) for fuel.

Saludos,
Alex

[Edited 2013-02-13 17:22:23]

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-13 17:40:04 and read 6082 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 27):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):

I made my points perfectly clear about where BWIA was up to its demise in 2006. The charters (including North American) dominated the JFK GEO route. So where is this "always dominated"?

Let me ask you a question. You leave JFK at 1 AM, Arrive at POS at 6AM. Must wait on the plane. as you are not allowed to disembark, until 7:30AM departure with an arrival in GEO one hour later. Because the crews are changing and the plane is being cleaned you are offered NO SERVICE during this period @ POS. And you are not allowed to disembark while intransit to purchase coffee, juice or what ever either.

Now who in their rational thinking would like this? NO ONE.

You chose it because your alternate options are limited. The competition is too expensivve, has too strict baggage rules, and offers too few seats. Delta could do this because the demand for their services was high relative to their willingness to supply.

Delta ran off singing merrily with loads in excess of 90%, dumping passengers some one else wrote, so many who would have preferred the nonstop COULD NOT USE IT!!!

CAL knew perfectly well that Ezjet would have brought in more nonstop seats and so their passengers would have galloped over to them So they IMMEDIATELY matched this with even MORE liberal baggage rules and INTRODUCED nonstops even though it meant have to use a wetleased plane.

Now if I were to follow your line of thinking, there would have been no need to introduce nonstops because people would have stayed with CAL. Clearly CAL was less confident of this than you are. So they were willing to incur losses by the wet lease costs and by a sharp cut in fares, to protect their market share.

Remember that this is Ezjet that they had this reaction to. Not some big name brand like Jetblue.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2013-02-13 17:44:38 and read 6076 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 30):
You chose it because your alternate options are limited. The competition is too expensivve, has too strict baggage rules, and offers too few seats. Delta could do this because the demand for their services was high relative to their willingness to supply.

Delta ran off singing merrily with loads in excess of 90%, dumping passengers some one else wrote, so many who would have preferred the nonstop COULD NOT USE IT!!!

I am not getting it. If DL artificially restricted capacity so that they could charge more...why are they pulling out because of unprofitability? That theory does not make any sense....

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-02-13 18:05:22 and read 6064 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 30):
Delta ran off singing merrily with loads in excess of 90%, dumping passengers some one else wrote, so many who would have preferred the nonstop COULD NOT USE IT!!!

= I am a little confused again. Remind me again why DL restricted capacity with 90% loads and still could not generate a profit?

Saludos,
Alex

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-02-13 18:52:59 and read 5962 times.

There is more to this route axing than loads....

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 27):
Quoting guyanam (Reply 26):
Delta had a deliberate strategy of underserving the JFK GEO market, which meant that even in low periods their flights were full.

Please explain what in the hell you mean.

Yes, please explain.....i can't seem to wrap my head around the logic.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
So everyone hates BW, but DL didn't add enough seats, DL had 'rudimentary' inflight service, and they all flew BW anyway in spite of their whinging and moaning, and now they're left with nothing but BW, which they hate. Passengers get what they pay for, so enjoy BW!

Yep, BW will surely put up the fares now....so the Guyanese public are back to square one.


and CM is nowhere in sight....and won't be for awhile.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: sq_ek_freak
Posted 2013-02-13 20:16:24 and read 5882 times.

Pardon the ignorance, but is this a route a JetBlue A320 can do, and do it profitably? Is it something that JetBlue would look into or is Georgetown too far south?

Also another random question, would UA fly it out of EWR? Would the NYC Guyanese population schlep over to EWR to fly a nonstop service that isn't BW?

Finally, how about AA? Least likely given cost base I'd assume, but given their rather extensive South America (albeit mostly deep South America) network would they want a whirl?

Just wondering if there were any viable options to replace Delta's presence on the route.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: NASBWI
Posted 2013-02-13 20:38:07 and read 5871 times.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 34):
Pardon the ignorance, but is this a route a JetBlue A320 can do, and do it profitably? Is it something that JetBlue would look into or is Georgetown too far south?

Mileage-wise, JFK-GEO is within B6's range capabilities (albeit a bit of a stretch). With added cargo, it might not be feasible without a penalty. Given B6's success against BW (KIN, MBJ, and BGI) from multiple markets (JFK, MCO, FLL), I'm more surprised that they haven't announced any intention to serve POS from JFK - in my opinion, a huge market still unserved by B6's Caribbean expansion. Perhaps when the NEO's come online, B6 may consider destinations further south in order to accomodate both pax and cargo without a weight penalty.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-02-13 21:14:49 and read 5811 times.

GEO is just barely outside the range of a 320 from JFK once you allow for holding at JFK etc. route will have to wait for the NEO

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-14 07:26:16 and read 5609 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 30):
CAL knew perfectly well that Ezjet would have brought in more nonstop seats and so their passengers would have galloped over to them So they IMMEDIATELY matched this with even MORE liberal baggage rules and INTRODUCED nonstops even though it meant have to use a wetleased plane.

This is just insane. EZjet lasted, what, a blink of an eye? Maybe two?

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 29):
You do realize that BWIA is still subsidized and does unfair competition.

I just assume everything in/around the Caribbean is cozy with their respective governments

Quoting guyanam (Reply 30):
You leave JFK at 1 AM, Arrive at POS at 6AM. Must wait on the plane. as you are not allowed to disembark, until 7:30AM departure with an arrival in GEO one hour later. Because the crews are changing and the plane is being cleaned you are offered NO SERVICE during this period @ POS. And you are not allowed to disembark while intransit to purchase coffee, juice or what ever either

Wow that sounds so awful that 75+% of the Guyanese market continue to use it, despite DL's nonstop and whatever ponzi scheme EZjet could throw together.  

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-14 08:55:38 and read 5535 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):

You make points scoffing at mine without offering any of your own.

Interested in hearing from you about why CAL introduced nonstops as soon as Ezjet entered the market, even though mnay were begging them to do so for YEARS (scrfoll thru oldCaribbean threads on this topic). Interested in hearing from you about why CAL was willing to lose money through wet leases and a 20-30% REDUCTIOn in airfares if they were not threatened.

CALs overall market share into GEO was 60% in 2012, ON ALL ROUTES. This as reported by the airport authorities in GEO. Redjet collapsed early in 2012 and Ezjet entered, carrying more passengers than you might think, though not enough to sustain its self at the very low fares that it charged. This simply because CAL ran them down and chewed them up like an aggressive bear mom defending her kids.. GEO being a vital market for them. And this is what a company will do if threatened.

Clearly then CALs share on the JFK route in 2012 would have been less than 60%. This being the only one other than BGI, (competes with LIAT) and MIA (competes with PY), that it has competition. Given that CAL has 100% market share to YYZ and POS, hugely important markets on its GEO operations, yet only had 60% overall suggests that CAL was no where near 75% on its JFK GEO. It might be there now with EZjets demise. I( can well imagine that with its new nonstops many DL passengers have now gone to CAL with its lower fares and better baggage allowance.

Some suggested that before Ezjet their share was 55%, as they gradually over took DL on the route. Others who post here have said that DL has made money on its GEO and was not the slightest bothered by CAL taking over market share, as yield and not martket dominance was their goal. If those people wish to enagge you than they can.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 34):

The only viable options to replace DL...and there will be political pressure for the Guyana govt to either win back DL, or get a replacement...will be PY or B6. Neither are ready.

B6 and PY will need new planes with longer range.. UA is off as Guyanese live mainly in Brooklyn and Queens and the NJ community is not large enough to sustain it. Note that UA only does 1X to POS which is a larger and more diverse market ex JFK than is GEO (more business traffic). Now with CAL running nonstops there is no need to trek to EWR.

AA is retrenching its Caribbean routes ex JFK so I doubt will be interested, though one does not know. Maybe BW, with its fuel subsidy and willngess to take advantage of it, will be a too formidable competitor for AA, though the more nimble B6 should hold its own as it is on its Jamaican routes.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-14 09:43:41 and read 5497 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 38):
You make points scoffing at mine without offering any of your own.

You make zero sense. You say everyone hates BW but clearly everyone flies them. You say DL didn't serve the market adequately but they were running very high loads. You say EZjet was taking the market by storm but EZjet has more in common with Baltia. I get that you hate BW, but it's your only option if you want to fly to JFK. If you don't like flying them then start your own airline from GEO.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 38):
Interested in hearing from you about why CAL introduced nonstops as soon as Ezjet entered the market,
Quoting guyanam (Reply 38):
Some suggested that before Ezjet their share was 55%,

EZjet is a non factor. It doesn't show up in the schedule data, a google search provides comedic fodder, and the market share data shows they were barely there. BW knows that it owns the NYCGEO market, so a nonstop is not far fetched given permission on the Guyanese side. Perhaps the threat of a nonstop spurred BW into action, but nonstop or not, BW has continued to own the market.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-02-14 10:01:20 and read 5481 times.

Slow to confirm

"Delta Airlines has not made an official announcement with regard to the Guyana/JFK routeā€¦ we have not confirmed any flights as of May of 2013, Sara Lora, Manager of Communications for Latin America "

http://www.stabroeknews.com/2013/new...delta-still-to-make-exit-official/

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-14 15:33:20 and read 5364 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 39):

Do you know any Guyanese by the way? Your remarks tell me that you dont as horror stories by Guyanese intransit at POS can fill volumes and the thing is even many BWIA/CAL cabin crews and NY based sales staff will sympathize with them. Do yourself a favor and look through Guyanese papers to see for yourself.

Why do you think that CALrushed to do JFK nonstops? These being their biggest markets on the GEO, other than POS? Even being forced to WET LEASE aircraft in order to do so, instead of waiting until their 767s came on stream. Its still just US and Canada based Guyanese who fly these routes, nothing new. So why these sudden moves by CAL?

This after Guyanese have been begging them to do this for YEARS and indeed they had the rights to do JFK nonstop for a few years now.Enter EZjet and suddenly nonstops!!!!

Do you not think it odd that just when Ezjet enters CAL makes this move? Yes a little no name charter airline at that!!! Just goes to show what EXCESS capacity on nonstop service JFK GEO could force an airline, which (together with its predeccessor BWIA, has been serving GEO for over 60 years.

Respond to this fact and not pretending as if EZ was not a major destablizing event last year causing the two major carriers to take steps which cost them $$ as they sought to protect their market. I told you what they did several times and you have chosen to scoff at this w/o offering alternate evidence. Instead mounting an emotional response based on your thought that I "hate" BW.

By the way were you knowledgable of Caribbean aviation you would know that sizeable numbers of older passengers especially, b ut not exclusively ,do not book online, but use travel agents. This being especially so in the IndoCaribeban communities of Queens where many remain loyal to their travel agents, The travel agents book the cheapest seats and this is the segment that Ezjet catered to. Indeed by booking bulk seats often negotiating lower fares than some one booking on their own could do.

If you do not know the name Travelspan then you know nothing about this topic.

[Edited 2013-02-14 15:49:00]

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-15 08:15:06 and read 5172 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 41):
Do you know any Guyanese by the way?

Not a one.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 41):
Your remarks tell me that you dont as horror stories by Guyanese intransit at POS can fill volumes and the thing is even many BWIA/CAL cabin crews and NY based sales staff will sympathize with them

And yet they all almost exclusively fly BW.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 41):
If you do not know the name Travelspan then you know nothing about this topic.

Yep, and you'll never guess who they'd put me on when I tried booking JFKGEO.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 41):
Do you not think it odd that just when Ezjet enters CAL makes this move?

And yet all those Guyanese are flying that awful heinous carrier BW. Did EZ even get off the ground?

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: JA
Posted 2013-02-15 11:19:05 and read 5063 times.

From the horse's mouth: http://www.demerarawaves.com/index.p...-performanceq-guyana-us-route.html

Delta Air Lines will close its station in Georgetown, Guyana discontinuing flights between the John F. Kennedy International Airport and the Cheddi Jagan International Airport, effective May 6th, 2013 due to poor performance of the route.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-15 11:52:46 and read 5009 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):

I did note that you do not know any Guyanese. Maybe you ought to let those who know about Guyana talk about it.

In fact BW had 2 flights daily with a total of 2,150 seats. Given that the flights stopped in POS, given that more people travel JFK POS than JFK GEO, we can assume that at least 50% of the passengers on these flights got off in POS...and I suspect its more than that. Delta was always FULL wth approx 750 seats.

BW 425 and the 525 probebly arrived in GEO with loads in the 60-70% range (outside of the peak periods), which also included passengers boarding in POS, with the 525 also bringing in passengers connecting from FLL and a few from YYZ. There is ample travel between POS and GEO.

So it is mathematically impossible for CAL to have had almost all the route when it only offered a stop in POS.

Now that they offer nonstops and have driven off Ezjet I can well believe that their share on the JFK GEO route is in the region of 70%. This because DL no longer has a monopoly on the nonstops, and charges more than BW, has stricter baggage policies and so many of their former passengers fled.

If BW had virtually all the market prior to last year DL would have canceled its service long ago a sGEO has expensive fuel and is a significant point for drug smuggling into the USA, increasing security costs for carriers on that route. But when DL was the only nonstop they stayed on, doing quite well in fact...they dropped their JFK POS, cut back ther JFK ANU and their JFK GND, but kept their JFK GEO.

BW now has the best of both worlds A cheaper flight (with 2 free bags) and a nonsop flight.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: JA
Posted 2013-02-15 12:12:26 and read 4974 times.

That begs the question: is more capacity really needed?

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: caribbean484
Posted 2013-02-15 12:27:26 and read 4974 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):
Quoting JA (Reply 43):
Quoting JA (Reply 45):

Before this conversation goes any further, it should be noted that last year according to the DOT CAL in a three way fight had the largest market-share of all carriers at 63%. This data includes all direct flights and nonstop flights in and out of GEO. This data is for the 7 months ending July and a load factor of 74%.
In 2011 CAL had a market share of 61% of the market out of GEO with a load factor of 85%.

As mentioned in the article DL saw a decline in pax for the last 18 months and a reduction in fares over the same period, making their flights unsustainable. So in the instance CAL and EZjet going at it has done irreparable damage to DL, who charges the higher fares out of the market.
Looking at the Easter periods coming up already most of CAL's seats in and out of GEO are already sold out long before DL's and they have significantly more seats available on the market.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-15 13:08:57 and read 4943 times.

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 46):
CAL in a three way fight had the largest market-share of all carriers at 63%. This data includes all direct flights and nonstop flights in and out of GEO. This data is for the 7 months ending July and a load factor of 74%.
In 2011 CAL had a market share of 61% of the market out of GEO with a load factor of 85%.

Clearly Guyanese are avoiding the hated carrier like the plague. Oh wait... 
Quoting guyanam (Reply 44):
Maybe you ought to let those who know about Guyana talk about it.

You are just missing the plain obvious truth that given multiple choices, most Guyanese choose BW to NYC, even choosing a stop in POS over DL. That is straight from the data, regardless of whether I know anyone in Guyana. Forget whether I'm acquainted with anyone from Guyana, and acquaint yourself with the actual data.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 44):
So it is mathematically impossible for CAL to have had almost all the route when it only offered a stop in POS.

It is possible, and all the data show that BW has carried 60-70+% of the market since around 2008.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 44):
Now that they offer nonstops and have driven off Ezjet

EZjet drove itself out of business. As far as I can tell the only passengers EZjet ever had are the stranded ones who may still be stranded.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 44):
so many of their former passengers fled.

...to BW which you say they hate, and down the rabbit hole we go again 

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: JA
Posted 2013-02-15 14:40:17 and read 4871 times.

Did the DOT stats include EZjet? Public charters are not required to report per se.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-15 16:45:43 and read 4791 times.

Quoting JA (Reply 48):
Did the DOT stats include EZjet? Public charters are not required to report per se.

I'm pretty sure public charters show up in a lot of different data sources; private charters do not.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-15 17:11:19 and read 4751 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 47):

Hating POS is not the same as hating BW you ought to know. BW now offers nonstops to GEO from JFK and BGI to satisfy the many who hate POS stops.

Clearly they know that these NONSTOP flights are a selling point. One thing when there was limited competition. Quite another when too many seats open up, meaning that some one will end up not too happy.


The 60% market share in 2011 is within the 50-60% range that I used. No new information there. i already told you why Guyanese flew via POS even though they hated that early morning lengthy stop over. I will not repeat it to you again.

Also the GEO airport authorities report that BW had 60% share of ALL passengers arriving and departing (543k), meaning passengers that they brought in from MIA,FLL, BGI and POS, in addition to JFK.

Ezjet had 13%. This means that they flew 35k ROUND TRIP, mainly from JFK GEO, as their numbers to FLL in afdition to JFK. I doubt that more than 25K Guyanese visited the USA.

Some one flew Ezjet from JFK. Thousands of them in fact. Maverick I keep on telling you to talk about what you know, and clearly Guyana isnt within this range of topics that you know much about. You dont know Guyanese so I can see why certain concepts about travel to GEO arent clear to you.

Quoting JA (Reply 48):

Quite likely EZ is in the a DOT stats. What I am trying to tell maverick, and he can not seem to understand, is thatthe relaltionsship between DL and BW, with each filling different needs (nonstops vs cheaper flighst/free baggage) was interrupted when Ez came in charging fares that were too low ($400 vs the usual BW fare of $600 and DL of $700), and adding more capacity on the route than was needed. This posed great danger to all the carriers and so killing off Ezjet was important, as their continued presence on the route was a threat to maintaining viable service to GEO..

To their credit BW didnt wait to let EZjet get established but immediately matched them. At the CTO annual NYC event last year one of their sales staff was explaining to visitors to her booth about how they were matching EZjet toe to toe, depriving any one of a need to use them. DL didnt and we now we see the results. BW kept their customers and DL lost theirs.

But for maverick to claim that Ezjet didnt need to be dealt with is pure nonsense. FINALLY Guyanese have a choice in who to use for nonstop service to JFK, and also have nonstops to POS. BW has protected its market share from new and existing competitors by not forcing all to stop in POS.

[Edited 2013-02-15 17:14:07]

[Edited 2013-02-15 17:16:19]

[Edited 2013-02-15 17:20:31]

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-15 18:39:25 and read 4669 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 50):
Thousands of them in fact. Maverick I keep on telling you to talk about what you know, and clearly Guyana isnt within this range of topics that you know much about. You dont know Guyanese so I can see why certain concepts about travel to GEO arent clear to you.

LOL I'm just looking at the data, which tells me EZjet is a non factor: they operated 50 roundtrips in the first 7 months of 2012 vs DL's 140+ and BW's 170+, and EZ did that on at least 4, possibly more different charter providers. They're also grounded among recriminations of unpaid debts. They're nothing but another failed carrier in a long line of failed carriers trying to make a go at JFKGEO.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 50):
they were matching EZjet toe to toe

You know who else does that? Every airline in the industry in a competitive market.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 50):
FINALLY Guyanese have a choice in who to use for nonstop service to JFK, and also have nonstops to POS

Really? It looks like one carrier to me: BW.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 50):
Guyana isnt within this range of topics that you know much about

Then that makes two of us, unless you can stop foaming at the mouth long enough to look at some data, any data.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: trintocan
Posted 2013-02-16 04:55:57 and read 4565 times.

So DL end their GEO adventure. Before I decided to reply to this thread I though that perhaps it would be useful to put a little history into perspective so that we all have a little background to BW and the GEO route overall.

BW, as the website interface brings up, referred to BWIA, which flew from 1940 to 2006. Over those years they became T&T's national airline and a major carrier to the Eastern Caribbean with POS, GEO and BGI their main foci of services. In 2006 the renationalised BW were wound up as a result of heavy losses and a somewhat tarnished image due to delays. The Government of the Republic of T&T wrote off hundreds of millions of dollars of debt in doing so and established new BW, Caribbean Airlines, with a new mandate (from here on BW refers to Caribbean) on 1 January 2007.

BW, while known for the fuel subsidy (BWIA never had such a facility), also radically shook things up in several ways. The new company was shorn of some of the labour and union contracts of the predecessor and thus had more leeway in sorting matters out. They also started with a largely POS focus and dropped long-haul flights via other Islands (ANU, BGI and UVF) with the initial exception of the LHR route, which continued for 4 months via BGI until the BA tie-up. Furthermore, they identied the travel agents, with whom BWIA had sold many seats in the past, as a problem area as on occasion the agents delayed payment to BWIA and this contributed to the late airline's cashflow problems. BW decided to largely do away with the agents and sell tickets directly to the public via their website. The overall effect of these and some other changes was that BW were leaner and meaner than their predecessors and, with a new emphasis on service, they increasingly dominated the POS market and saw their greatest coup d'etat in 2008 when they deposed AC from the YYZ - POS market.

Still, you ask about GEO. Georgetown - and Guyana in general - had always been an important market for BWIA, whose dominance grew over the years as major international airlines like BA, AF and Pan Am pulled out over the 1970s and 1980s. BWIA for a long time flew GEO services as stand-alone flights from POS but from the 90s onwards many JFK flights (and some to YYZ) actually originated in GEO but called in POS before heading North. While the crew base was solely in POS and so it appeared as if the flights were operated as POS - GEO - POS - JFK, the flight numbers started from GEO. Over the years Guyana had national airlines such as Guyana Airways and Guyana Airways 2000 but with limited success.

The GEO routes to JFK and YYZ have long been fairly steady but with limited growth as GEO is neither a major tourist destination, like most other regional destinations nor a particularly large business destination (especially if one looks beyond CariCom, within which it is important). In some ways these routes are similar to the corresponding POS routes with the major exception of POS being a large business centre. With VFR being the major driver of the GEO routes the traffic volumes fluctuate significantly, being highest during holiday periods. For these sorts of reasons GEO was not seen as a viable destination by the US majors and so BWIA held sway with flights via POS, along with which several smaller US carriers which could adapt to the niche requirements served GEO directly. NA is the best example of the latter and for several years they established themselves well on the route from JFK, flying it until 2008. Nonetheless, BWIA offered daily GEO services as opposed to the several per week by the others.

At this point we need to recall the travel agents. The JFK - Caribbean routes, like many Diaspora routes around the world, traditionally relied heavily on travel agents to sell tickets and in fact these routes stood somewhat apart from the rapid move towards direct sales via the Internet seen on many business and holiday routes and airlines. The trouble is that as time has moved on there has been greater uptake of 'Net sales, particularly among the younger generation and so travel agents have become a bit of an anachronism. This is another reason BW cut ties with most agents on opening in 2007. The smaller airlines like NA and more recently Travelspan and EZ Jet stuck with the agents as they formed the only means by which they could reach passengers; they did not have the same level of 'Net capability as many other airlines (including BW).

Let's now consider DL, who started flying JFK - GEO in 2008 and POS a year earlier. The thing with DL is that they were prepared to offer capacity to the travel agents after BW turned away - and to a large part DL's POS flights replaced the charters which flew at peak periods, notwithstanding DL's year-round service. Whether this relationship came to upset them in the way that BWIA found before could be speculated on. As time went on DL could not make POS work and so they left in 2011, dropping JFK - POS and ATL - POS and TAB. The New York market was thus left to BW from JFK to both Islands and CO (now UA) from EWR. From GEO, though, they lasted somewhat longer with the initial advantage of having nonstops compared to the BW one-stop services. Another thing DL had to their advantage was BW's initial POS - centric focus, which meant they were unwilling to do any non-stop longhauls from GEO or anywhere else - and so they seized the initiative. It is quite possible that the fare war to fend off EZ Jet proved to be DL's undoing too though with BW now offering JFK nonstops the market may have become over-served.

A few other things - some lament passengers being unable to disembark in POS when the GEO - POS - JFK flights were being prepared - unfortunately that happens everywhere now due to security issues such as the need to ensure passenger manifests are accurate and all bags onbaord are accounted for. Try flying BA on, say, LGW - ANU - TAB / SKB / PUJ destined for one of those final destinations - you are not allowed off at ANU at all. The days of an inter-Island flight being a chance to set foot on 3 or 4 nations on one day are over, unless you buy separate flights and check-in each time.

Something else, it is possible that many in GEO have been members of Bwee Miles (now Caribbean Miles), the rewards programme which has largely carried on unchanged despite the switch over. This may well be the case of those who also travel frequently to POS and elsewhere in the region and thus provide further incentive for many to stay with BW despite the occasional hiccups. Add in BW's 2 free checked bags and food - I think you have a winning combination there.

So long DL, who seem to be having a hard time in the Eastern Caribbean. Hopefully I have pointed out a few things which may be behind their imminent departure from GEO.

Trintocan.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-02-16 10:54:39 and read 4405 times.

Quoting trintocan (Reply 52):
Before I decided to reply to this thread I though that perhaps it would be useful to put a little history into perspective so that we all have a little background to BW and the GEO route overall.

Great post and you explained it very well.   

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-16 11:06:18 and read 4421 times.

Quoting trintocan (Reply 52):

Good information.

The Guyana govt reports that DL has had fairly consistent passengers loads which they estimate at about 85%. They claim that these LFs are the highest among any carrier operating into GEO. So it appears as if the dwindling traffic is DLs justification for their pull out, when what they resent is the dwindling yeild, now that BW offers almsot a sany nonstop seats as they do from JFK. Not dwindling loads.

Rumors are that DL wants a revenue guarantee to offset this more precarious world that they are in (I guess they wine that BW gets a fuel guaranty, which even BA has mentioned with regards to BWs LGW POS route). The GUY govt says that they will not offer any subsidies for any aspect of any airline's operations into GEO...this giving some credence to this rumor.

DL flew a total of 76k in/out of GEO in 2010, 74k in 2011, and 78k in 2012. The GEO market has being growing with increased travel by both Guyanese overseas and those at home. GEO handled 543,000 arrivals and departiues in 2012. Given that an estimated 170K visitors arrived, this will imply 100k trips by Guyanese to points overseas.

Given that much of the increase occurred because of the irresponsible and unsustainable pricing by both Ez and Redjet I will expect 2013 to show a decline.

The issue is that in 2008 the charter industry collapsed with several carriers going belly up, and so Nortrh America chose to focus on charters and abandon GEO and DL replaced them. BW then took the more price conscious travelers who already used their services, as well as those who used Travelspan. As the US GEO market has grown DL, because of their strategy of high prices, not increasing capacity, and restricting free bags to one per passenger, kept its core customers, but did not expand as the market grew. So it lost its leadership on the JFK GEO route, that it briefly had and that North American had enjoyed..

BW and DL co-existed until 2012 as BW focused on the passengers who valued lower fares and more free bags, and DL on those who were willing to pay more for the nonstop. Enter Ezjet and this cosy arrangement came to an end. BOTH DL and BW were forced to respond. Clearly an airline charging unsustainable fares could not be allowed to exist, and Ezjet, with its unprofessional management and its weak financial position, was highly vulnerable,

DL lowered fares.

BW charged fares which EXACTLY matched EZ, Baggage allowances (70lbs) EXACTLY matcfhing on the nonstops, though keeping teh 50 lbs on the flughts via POS. BW, which had been resistant to nonstops into GEO, routing all flights through POS (operationally more convenient, and allowing each flight to cater to BOTH the POS and GEO markets, which allowed BW to profitably run the 2X daily JFK POS GEO) suddenly introduced GEO JFK nonstops. Indeed to compound the fcat that BW did this out of fears of EZjet, they promptly did the same on the YYZ market is smaller and much more seasonal.

BOTH DL and BW tried to defend their markets as I described above. Ezjet was therefore not able to grab market share, except through the travel agent network as you described, and still exists among the older passengers, both in Guyana and in NY. The sordid reputation of airlines like Ez in the GEO market led those booking online to stay with their carriers given that the fares were competitive, as were the baggage allowances and the availability of nonstops.


A new era in the JFK GEO market begins.


So now we have BW with nonstops and a lower cost structure than DL ( some say fuel subsidies) which allows lower fares than they charged before. Now their JFK/POS bound passenger will tolerate the long wait at GEO (not able to disembark as you described for POS). This means that in order to fill these planes (767s with 221 seats) only with its GEO market, fares being offered are quite inline with what BW charges on its JFK/POS routes, and lower than BW charged before..

So this is a new day for DL. They no longer have the only nonstops, so they have lost their pricing power, this at a time when they have lost their only advantage over BW.. Most of the market has decided that BW is cheaper, offers nonstops, and more baggage (I do not know if teh 70lb still is available, but 2 free bags vs DLs 1). BW even offers a HOT MEAL, on its northbound 526 flight to JFk (IMAGINE THAT). Either DL responds to this or they lose business. DL is not willing to accept this so they have gone.

The Guyana govt is already facing some criticism for the departure of DL, suggesting that its claims that touriosm is booming is not true. While there has been an increase in visitors, these are mainly overseas based Guyanese. Also that passengers will be left with a monopoly and there are fears that fares will sharply increase once the summer season approaches and seats become scares, with the disappearance of the 1,200 seats that DL offers on the JFk at this time. We will see what happens.

I suggest that BW wil be better off if PY enters as BW can keep them in their place with no difficulty.Should jetblue enter, once they get suitable aircraft, they will be a more astute competitor than DL. B6 will most likely ignore GEO if it already has two carriers.

[Edited 2013-02-16 11:20:17]

[Edited 2013-02-16 11:21:44]

[Edited 2013-02-16 11:22:38]

[Edited 2013-02-16 11:24:42]

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-02-16 11:58:01 and read 4347 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 54):
I guess they wine that BW gets a fuel guaranty,

We'll wouldn't you....that is unfair competition.....if you gonna give one, you gotta give all....epecially if it is a competing route.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: peanuts
Posted 2013-02-17 19:29:30 and read 4056 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 54):

Nice synopsis. In other words, DL got a big headache from this. Usually a headache is ok if the reward is there. Reward gone? Pack up and leave if it concerns a non strategic destination.

Government meddling is often more exposed in smaller countries. It's unfortunate since the passengers are left holding the bag, no pun intended...

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: OOer
Posted 2013-02-18 00:14:00 and read 3931 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 26):
I can only imagine that "awful" with refrence to BW was becasue of its POS stop, as others have commented on how shabby the DL planes to GEO are,and how rudimentry their inflight service is even in business class.

Shabby DL planes??? Seriously??? The plane currently used on JFK-GEO is the same that Delta uses for it's premium JFK-LAX/SFO flights. This sounds a bit like the issue down in Lagos where the 767 wasn't a good enough plane for them, but it's a good enough plane for FCO, CDG, FRA, and LHR. Get a grip people...you're not gonna get a brand new 787 with an all business configuration for the measly fare you're willing to pay.

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 35):
Mileage-wise, JFK-GEO is within B6's range capabilities (albeit a bit of a stretch). With added cargo, it might not be feasible without a penalty. Given B6's success against BW (KIN, MBJ, and BGI) from multiple markets (JFK, MCO, FLL), I'm more surprised that they haven't announced any intention to serve POS from JFK - in my opinion, a huge market still unserved by B6's Caribbean expansion. Perhaps when the NEO's come online, B6 may consider destinations further south in order to accomodate both pax and cargo without a weight penalty.

JFK-GEO is NOT within B6's range. When DL used the domestic 757 on the route it was frequently weight restricted. How much longer is the range of a 757 compared to an A320??? Quite a bit.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: OOer
Posted 2013-02-18 00:24:42 and read 3930 times.

JFK-GEO = 2,206nm

JetBlue A320 range = 2,700nm

Now consider this...

The route of flight isn't direct. Add the DP and the approach. Add 45 minutes contingency fuel and add any fuel required for an alternate. So what are you left with???

Let's look at tonight's DL flight to GEO for example. As filed the route is about 2,300nm (about 100nm more then direct). The wind factor is about 20 knots. So it will be an advantage one way, but you must add another 120nm or so for the return. So now you're up to 2,420nm. Let's now add 45 minutes of contingency fuel...so that's roughly another 330nm. This puts you at 2,750nm (50nm over the range listed on the JetBlue website) with fairly weak headwinds and no alternate listed.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: Pyrex
Posted 2013-02-18 11:42:37 and read 3757 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 10):
JFK-GEO R/T on 4/22-4/29 = $601 (2,539 miles)

JFK-LAX R/T on 4/22-4/29 = $327 (2,475 miles)

Same distance, same equipment, GEO staffed with 1 less flight attendant (Savings of about $300 each way for Delta), fares on GEO about double what they are on LAX, and the route isn't profitable?

Are those fares fully-loaded, with all the fees? If so, remember the international fees to pay for U.S. Customs and INS will take a significant chunk out of that JFK-GEO revenue for Delta...

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-02-18 13:45:49 and read 3652 times.

In the end if this route was from ATL, and was marginal, it would probably stay. But as is from JFK, they have much less options aircraft wise.

Maybe they should have tried it from ATL.....although if POS failed I don't see how GEO would work

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: OOer
Posted 2013-02-18 17:12:25 and read 3536 times.

New York has one of the largest populations of Guyanese people outside of Guyana. Not everything will work out of ATL. If Delta can't make it work out of JFK then they sure as heck won't be able to make it work out of ATL.

Anyone remember the BOM flight? Ring a bell?

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: AVIATEUR
Posted 2013-02-18 17:57:28 and read 3495 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 61):
New York has one of the largest populations of Guyanese people outside of Guyana.


Not just "one of." It's THE largest. And 90 percent of those people live within a 5-mile radius of JFK.

I can't believe DL is letting this go. Those flights are ALWAYS jam-packed.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-18 19:26:40 and read 3438 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 57):
Shabby DL planes??? Seriously???

Yeah. Compared to the 17 charter carriers EZjet subcontracted in its nanosecond of existence 

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-19 15:01:57 and read 3254 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 55):

The issue is that T&T supports BW, not GY. The latter has not put anything into BW, nor have they offered any concessions apart from nominating them as the flag carrier. They had to do this to get YYZ GEO nonstop, which the market has being demanded (at least during peak periods) for a long time now.

DL, as a major carrier with a strong brand and ample economies of scale, definitely has advantages over BW, which is basically confined to its VFR markets and some outbound travel out of POS/GEO/KIN.

I happen to think that the fuel subsdy levels the playing field some what.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 56):

GEO has high fuel costs and additional security issues as it is a drug transshipment location (porous borders with Brazil) and the local airport personnel have at times been significantly involved. This was fine when DL had the only nonstops so charged what it wished. Now BW has joined them, prices aggressively, so has changed the dynamics. While loads remain decent, yields have dropped. DL is out. The question will be how long will BW be allowed a monopoly on what is for Guyanese a very important route.

Quoting OOer (Reply 61):

If DL couldnt make its ATL POS and ATL BGI routes work, given their more diverse markets, ATL GEO is a nonstarter. Good loads in Jul/Aug and Dec. Empty otherwise. Outside of the NY area and FL the Guyanese VFR market is very scattered.

Quoting OOer (Reply 57):

Put it this way, DL planes are seen as shabbier than BWs as this is the basis of comparison.

Guyanese travelers arent interested in luxury to GEO as they have never had it. Just want to get there nonstop (if possible) at a decent fare, with minimal hassles, and to ensure that their bags arrive with them, as GEO is packed with thieves and others who will stuff their luggage with drugs, if the bags hang around. They dont expect much. They even tolerate DLs peanuts on the morning flight to JFK when there are limited early morning meal options at GEO, assuming that people have the time to buy food.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: LimaFoxTango
Posted 2013-02-19 15:40:42 and read 3219 times.

Rumours abound that this was the reason for DL's pullout.

http://www.caribbean360.com/index.ph...ana_news/666375.html#axzz2LIiv2Z8j

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-02-19 16:33:06 and read 3160 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 64):
I happen to think that the fuel subsdy levels the playing field some what.

Surely you can't believe this....BW is hardly a startup. as How can subsidized competition be a level playing field?

If the intent was as you say, then clearly they have no idea how the business of running an airline (or any other business for that matter) works.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-02-19 16:55:55 and read 3123 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 33):
and CM is nowhere in sight....and won't be for awhile.

CM PTY wouldn't really get a piece of GEO-NYC O/D traffic demand: on GEO-Florida O/D, perhaps something.
Anyhow, it's time due for CM to make it to GEO.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 36):
GEO is just barely outside the range of a 320 from JFK once you allow for holding at JFK etc. route will have to wait for the NEO

That's because B6 has no A319.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 38):
Now with CAL running nonstops there is no need to trek to EWR.

So if BW wouldn't be flying GEO-JFK non-stop there could be a slight chance NYC Guyanese would fly UA non-stop out of EWR?
I can visualize a possible scenario, with DL out of the route, BW soon drops GEO-JFK non-stops, UA sees an opportunity so starts EWR-GEO and suddenly BW re-starts GEO-JFK.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-19 17:49:45 and read 3101 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 66):

BW is no AA/DL/BA/UA. I think that you are getting the point.

DL can start any route any where in the Caribbean, and with almost no promotion, they can get decent market share from the VFR, outbound travel by Caribbean people, and the leisure market. That is because it is a strong brand and every one knows them, so wants its known that they are an option they will get some business.

It is wishful thinking that BW can get leisure,travelers w/o severely compromizing yield (dumping seats to whole salers) as it is an unknown brand outside of its core VFR market. Indeed even the mighty Butch Sewart oiwned Air Jam failed in this segment.

Further BWs VFR market is not growing rapidly and the economies of its three core markets are relatively strong and less bouyant than giants like Mexico, Chile, Brazil, etc. POS is not a hub in the way that PTY is, and its never going to be one. SO BW has limited ways of growing to get economies of scale. Indeed its the very mid sized carriers like BW which have been going out of business throughout the Americas.

So DL has advantages due to its brand and sale econopmies that BW lacks. So if its owners give them what they can, and that is cheaper fuel, so what.

t
DL (based oni ts press release) is crying like a spoilt kid, angered that they can no longer do what they want. Its quite simp[e. If BW combines nonstops with decent service/fares and two free bags they are giving the market what it wants and wil get the market share as a result.

'

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 67):

If BW drops their JFK GEO routes the customer backlash will be so bad that some one will HAVE to come in, with full revenue guarantees from the govt of GY. In fcat DL might be back, but this time getting more from the gvt of GY than they currently get. As is reports are that the govt of GY is supposedly traveling to ATL to see what they can do.

Given that they have 2, soon to be 3, 767s I doubt that they will be taht stupid. Now I can see them running the YYZ GEO only during peak periods, as it is a smaller and more seasonal market. But dropping JFK GEO when a major % of their JFK passengers are GEO bound....I will be shocked if they are that silly. And given the size of the JFK GEO, if hey are the only carrier, it will make no sense to force such large volumes of people thru POS.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-02-19 18:08:41 and read 3074 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 68):
and with almost no promotion,

Wrong...as proven in markets where they didn't do much promotion, they failed (POS, etc). As proven in markets where they did (BZE for example) they have succeded.

Irrespective, due to the subsidized competition, the good folks at GEO are left with a monopoly once again. Clearly the Gov'ts tactic didn't work.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-20 11:00:39 and read 2911 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 69):

.

OK so I see. DL blames Guyana for BWs fuel subsidy. So that rumor appears to be true.

Can you inform me about what subsidies BW gets from GY? Guyanese wil love to know because many wouid then suggest that if GY has the $$ to subsidize a Trinidadian (i.e. foreign) carrier then they can spend that money in re-establishing a national carrier.

If T&T subsidizes BW than that is their business, and there is nothing that GY can do, and GY will clearly not subsidize one airline and not another.

To my knowledge all BW gets from GY is national carrier status.. No incentives and subsdies that DL doesnt have access to.

DL is clearly trying to scare GEO into providing them cash. Let us hope that the GY govt doesnt fall into that trap.

If GEO no longer is a route that DL wishes to compete for then that is life.Believe me DL has long ceased to be relevant in the Eastern Caribbean, aside from its ATL UVF route. The BW monopoly on the JFK POS doesnt seem to be a problem for any one. Remember that DL does not bring in any type of visitor that BW lacks access to. Its the same NY Guyanese, so I dont think that GEO will die a terrible death of DL exits.

Let us hope that they are not scared into wasting money on a subsidy for DL, as BW will similarly demand it, as will PY, LI, and other other carrier planning to serve GEO.

PY will now have more incentive to develop its PBM GEO JFK route than they had last year. I really do not see that DL offers that PY will not also offer. Seats and competition.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-02-20 11:28:46 and read 2873 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 70):
PY will now have more incentive to develop its PBM GEO JFK route than they had last year. I really do not see that DL offers that PY will not also offer. Seats and competition.

PY flying PBM-GEO-MIA is one thing, PY flying PBM-GEO-JFK w/B737-300 is another, unless PY is ready to use a wide body on that route..

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-20 13:12:59 and read 2807 times.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 71):

Well discussions have already begun on a JFK GEO PBM route. PY is interesed. They have also expressed an interest in YYZ GEO PBM service, though I think the propects of that are more remote.

Two issues. The first being planes. The A340 is fully used on the AMS route and their 737s do not have the range. And the US have to approve, though I dont see why they wouldnt as they already allow a PBM GEO MIA route, and DL is now off the JFK so will not object.

So July 2013 start date is wishful thinking. Maybe next year.

Bottom line is once there are seats and competition on the JFK run people dont care who provides the service, provided that the carriers are credible, which both BW and PY are..

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-02-20 13:32:54 and read 2778 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 70):
o my knowledge all BW gets from GY is national carrier status..

Are you seriously going to try to debate this all over again. BW got an unfair fuels subsidy. The DL that I know asks for a level playing field so they pulled out. Enjoy your monopoly my friend!

I rest my case.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-20 16:34:03 and read 2685 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 73):

Dont you think that its silly that DL demands that GY force T&T to drop the fuel subsidy. You are going on as if GY is offering BW something that they do not offer BW. Or that this BW subsidy is new.

In any cased you know full well that DL decided it no longer wanted GEO and just decided to say what ever they felt like to excuse this act. Indeed they have already been found out as liars when they claimed that they were suffering "deteriorating passenger loads" when even last year with EZjet around, and BW introducing nonstops, they kept their loads.

If DL doesnt want GEO any more than that is fine. They dropped GEO and the govt of GY then has to find some new carrier to replace them. PY will be good enough, and no belly aches about fuel subsidies either.

The belly ache about tehj subsidy is very stupid when you consider that from the time DL entered the GEO, and POS markets BW had this. So why is it only a problem now? What is Guyana supposed to do about a subsidy provided by another government?


Like any compnay DL has the right to exit any market that doesnt suit them, if more profitable alternatives exist. Just say that and quit pretending as if tiny BW, which doesnt even have proper management (this topic has been well covered elsewhere), is this major threat.

It isnt, and the fact is that others compete with BW without any fuss. Westjet to POS being a recent example, B6 into KIN/MBJ being another, and in fact DL also INCREASING their JFK MBJ route, despite BWs subsidy...

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-02-21 06:01:29 and read 2570 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 74):
Dont you think that its silly that DL demands that GY force T&T to drop the fuel subsidy. You are going on as if GY is offering BW something that they do not offer BW. Or that this BW subsidy is new.

In any cased you know full well that DL decided it no longer wanted GEO and just decided to say what ever they felt like to excuse this act. Indeed they have already been found out as liars when they claimed that they were suffering "deteriorating passenger loads" when even last year with EZjet around, and BW introducing nonstops, they kept their loads.

If DL doesnt want GEO any more than that is fine. They dropped GEO and the govt of GY then has to find some new carrier to replace them. PY will be good enough, and no belly aches about fuel subsidies either.

The belly ache about tehj subsidy is very stupid when you consider that from the time DL entered the GEO, and POS markets BW had this. So why is it only a problem now? What is Guyana supposed to do about a subsidy provided by another government?


Like any compnay DL has the right to exit any market that doesnt suit them, if more profitable alternatives exist. Just say that and quit pretending as if tiny BW, which doesnt even have proper management (this topic has been well covered elsewhere), is this major threat.

It isnt, and the fact is that others compete with BW without any fuss. Westjet to POS being a recent example, B6 into KIN/MBJ being another, and in fact DL also INCREASING their JFK MBJ route, despite BWs subsidy...

Despite my best efforts and having just a wee bit of experience in the airline business, I find myself unable to follow your logic. sorry.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-02-21 06:46:55 and read 2550 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 64):
Put it this way, DL planes are seen as shabbier than BWs as this is the basis of comparison.

Then who ever sees them as "shabbier" are complete idiots. The 757s flying to GEO are some of the nicest aircraft in the fleet. Oddly enough they are used on the US premium routes (JFK-LAX/SFO) and international routes like ATL-BSB. I have yet to hear Brazil or the US government complaining about the aircraft.

You seem to have some kind love thing with BW. As yellowtail said, have fun with the monopoly and the fares that come with it.  

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: JA
Posted 2013-02-21 08:25:18 and read 2480 times.

We have to ask the question again: is there space for two carriers to make money?

If July/August/December are the peak months, then that decision would be based on off-peak traffic.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: LimaFoxTango
Posted 2013-02-21 09:14:50 and read 2438 times.

Quoting JA (Reply 77):
We have to ask the question again: is there space for two carriers to make money?

I say yes. Not like DL was running a daily operation. BW floods the market with their many GEO-POS that connects to their POS-North America flights in addition to their now direct GEO-JFK service. This whole DL pulling out story smells high of political interference and not poor loads.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-21 11:57:02 and read 2350 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 75):

.
What I am confused about is why you tie service to GEO with a subsidy offered to BW by T&T.

Do you suggest that Guyana should offer a subsidy to offset this "supposed" advantage that BW has because its owner, who also owns oil companies, decides to subsidize its fuel costs? And of course this subsidy is not permanent, and in fact, had BW not taken over JMs routes, and incurred losses doing so, this due to a POLITICAL MANDATE, they probably would no longer exist.


When DL entered the market was 25% smaller than it is today and BW was already getting the fuel subsidy.

Why do you imply that the fuel subsidy is something that has SUDDENLY impacted the economics of this route?





Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 76):

Funny I am almsot always considered to be a BW. "hater" , mostr recently by mavericjk I am amused by the fact that when I present my opinion, based on my analysis of the FACTS that do not put particular airline in a good light I am told that I "hate" that airline.

Any case it is a well known fact that US carriers provide an inflight experience that is inferior to what others offer.




Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 78):

The DL pull out is due to the fact that they must now compete against BW. They no longer enjoy a "monopoly" in the eyes of those who refuse to use any flight with a POS stop, and there are many of those. So they must now charge what they market will pay, and not what they chose to charge.

So they depart, having failed to extort a subsidy from Guyana, which is a poor NON tourist dependent economy. As an Antiguan you know this to be true, based on the large Guyanese community on that island.

ANU and SKB might be forced to offer revenue guarantees to global carriers as they need huge brands to ensure a growing number of visitors who lack ties to the Caribbean. GEO, with its almost exclusively Guyanese visitor base, has no need for this.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: OOer
Posted 2013-02-21 12:18:08 and read 2323 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 79):
Any case it is a well known fact that US carriers provide an inflight experience that is inferior to what others offer.

Others as in European, Middle-Eastern, and Asian carriers...yes. As in Caribbean carriers...I don't think so. Name 1 Caribbean carrier that has a first class cabin that matches that of Delta on the 757s currently offered on the JFK-GEO route (same as the JFK-LAX route), name 1 carrier that offers a product similar to economy comfort, or that has personal entertainment at every seat as well as wi-fi available.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-21 14:13:58 and read 2261 times.

Quoting OOer (Reply 80):
http://www.worldairlineawards.com/Awards_2012/Airline2012_top20.htm

Top 20 airlines. Do you see any US carriers?

The Caribbean is a price sensitive market and so Caribbean carriers arent designed to be among the worlds best as the existing market is not willing to pay for it. Indeed US carriers do not offer inflight service of any kind in coach on their Caribbean routes (unless you include dry sandwiches on sale WHEN AVAILABLE, and old movies).

Needless to say I challenge you to suggest that either AA or DL offer a better product than BW. I use AA regularly to SKB from JFK. I can tell you horror stories about AA in MIA...which makes POS look like heaven.

FACT is no airline offers a top quality product to the Caribbean and Caribbean carriers can compete with any thing that the US carriers offer.

BTW I know a Guyanese who is a very high frequent traveler to GEO on business. Travels regularly to Europe, Latin America and the Middle East. NEVER uses a US carrier on these trips. Always travels first class.

BTW he uses BW because he finds DLs BUSINESS class to GEO (they do not offer first class) to be atrocious and uses BW, even though that sometimes entails a stop at POS, which he hates. He described DLs business class to GEO as "a part of coach roped off from the rest"..

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-02-21 14:59:13 and read 2229 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 81):

I don't believe you read what OO stated....Here it is again...

Quoting OOer (Reply 80):
Name 1 Caribbean carrier that has a first class cabin that matches that of Delta on the 757s currently offered on the JFK-GEO route (same as the JFK-LAX route), name 1 carrier that offers a product similar to economy comfort, or that has personal entertainment at every seat as well as wi-fi available.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-21 15:14:03 and read 2208 times.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 82):

And the point is that DL does NOT offer first class to GEO and never did so it is irrelevant.to talk about DLs "superior first class. And as I told you the business class is not always segregated from the rest of the aircraft.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: LimaFoxTango
Posted 2013-02-21 15:27:23 and read 2193 times.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 79):

The DL pull out is due to the fact that they must now compete against BW. They no longer enjoy a "monopoly" in the eyes of those who refuse to use any flight with a POS stop, and there are many of those. So they must now charge what they market will pay, and not what they chose to charge.

Utter nonsense! DL maintained a 80+% load factor since they started the route. DL had their following and their flight was doing well enough to earn its keep year round. Yes BW did have the lion share of the market to JFK, however DL was not hemorrhaging on that route. DL pulled out because of political interference from the government plain and simple.

Topic: RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe
Username: guyanam
Posted 2013-02-21 16:58:40 and read 2145 times.

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 84):

Based on yellow tail's comments the issue seems to revolve around DL feeling that BW has an undue advantage because of its fuel subsidy, ignoring of course that GY is not responsible, and has no control over whther this is offered.


I assume you think from the Guyana govt caused their pull out? I wonder why when they are getting the Chinese to build a huge new airport and so would want as many airlines as possible.

So how did they interfere? And why wouldnt the US govt not immediately retaliate, given that DL is a major US carrier so has tremendous clout?


And why is this the fuel subsidy only now an issue when it was around since 2007, before DL began to fly to GEO.

The assertion that DLs loads are falling is based on what DELTA themselbes said, as they explained why the pull out. I dsipute that as do the authorities at GEO.


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