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Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-02-12 08:20:00 and read 9297 times.

Reuters reporting that Ryanair has stated the EU will block its take-over of Aer Lingus.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...ir-aerlingus-idUSBRE91B0RK20130212

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-02-12 09:22:27 and read 9099 times.

A very welcome development, but FR has said it will appeal. (It's always appealing, but only in a legal sense).

The decision to appeal is probably doomed from the start (it's hard to know on what grounds this will be - or on what grounds FR thinks it can appeal - since the full ruling of the Competition Commissioner's office has not been issued), but it adds more uncertainty to EI's position.

The next big milestone on the horizon will be the British OFT's ruling on FR's stake in EI; it would be a major blow to FR if the OFT were to rule against it.

Of course, FR is bleating that it met all of the concerns raised by the Competition office, but really ... Flybe? An airline that is having enough problems of its own, keeping its head above water? And still the fundamental issue ... FR controlling access to Irish airports and all of the ramifications of that - effectively holding the state to ransom. It just doesn't bear thinking about.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-02-12 09:48:06 and read 8986 times.

Thank God for that, it would have been a disaster for Ireland. Unless they bring highly compelling new evidence to the appeal, which I can't see them being able to do, it is futile. My next question, what will FR ultimately do with their shareholding - keep to try again in a few years or sell?


Dan  

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: ju068
Posted 2013-02-12 10:05:37 and read 8918 times.

I do not see why Ryanair is complaining so much... why should the European Union or the Irish government approve the sale when Aer Lingus managed to reorganize itself and report profits. There are simply no good arguments for the approval which would lead to the loss of competitiveness within the Irish aviation market.
It would make sense for them to change their mind when it comes to Greece as both Olympic and Aegean are loss making carriers. This is obviously not the case in Ireland.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: EIDL
Posted 2013-02-12 10:10:01 and read 8888 times.

I'm hopeful that the OFT ruling comes quickly and comes positively now - even having FR as a shareholder of that scale is a major problem for EI.

Stock price is still significantly higher than when the bidding process began (1.28 at the moment), should MOL think this is a time to crystallize their massive loss on this gamble and sell out.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2013-02-12 10:14:23 and read 8839 times.

No real surprise to be honest, though I suppose some silly decisions do get made now and again, so mild relief I guess.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: ju068
Posted 2013-02-12 10:51:04 and read 8611 times.

Could it also have something to do with the European Union and the Irish government protecting DUB? Ryanair is famous for completely withdrawing from a market if it doesn't get what it wants. Naturally I know that they would not withdraw fully but they surely could blackmail them and demand considerable reduction in fees.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-02-12 10:54:21 and read 8583 times.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 11):

Could it also have something to do with the European Union and the Irish government protecting DUB?

Perhaps not DUB, but Ireland itself. It would have been a very bad deal for their economy aside of anything else.


Dan  

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-02-12 10:55:27 and read 8580 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
The decision to appeal is probably doomed from the start

Honestly, I don't think FR actually though it would be able to buy EI, which would essentially give it control over the Irish flying market.

But the off chance that it could possibly happen, along with the with the free advertizing it would get from trying it is worth every penny it has spent on the process. And it is not even really negative like they often in the news for, it is just an industry action. Pretty favorable publicity for FR.

Tugg

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-02-12 10:58:17 and read 8549 times.

Herewith a link to an interesting analysis of Aer Lingus' performance and the Irish market.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...-but-beware-any-fall-in-rask-97103

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: KL911
Posted 2013-02-12 12:35:22 and read 8198 times.

Sad..... I am all for open markets and free trading. So what if a company wants to buy another? Happens all the time. Governments should stop being involved in private business deals.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: shamrock604
Posted 2013-02-12 12:37:25 and read 8190 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):

So the consumer doesnt matter? Wow. Well, at least an FR fan has finally admitted it!

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-02-12 12:38:07 and read 8166 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
Governments should stop being involved in private business deals.

No that is part of what government is there for - to protect the consumer's best interest and the best interest of the country. That is what has been carried out here, otherwise the market would have been anything other than open.


Dan  

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-02-12 12:38:40 and read 8166 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
Sad..... I am all for open markets and free trading. So what if a company wants to buy another? Happens all the time. Governments should stop being involved in private business deals.

When its to the detriment of the country you certainly do need intervention. I'm all for open markets and free trading that's why this decision is justified ! It would be a monopoly and an unfair one at that should this have been allowed to go ahead. There is a balance between both IMHO. Not just because it FR but to any similar monopoly.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-12 12:44:50 and read 8111 times.

Quoting EIDL (Reply 4):
even having FR as a shareholder of that scale is a major problem for EI.

FR seems to own almost 30% of EI's stock, but I couldn't locate how that effects the makeup of the Board of Directors. Does anyone know where there's a breakdown by affiliation? Ireland's government seems to still own about 25% of the stock as well.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: EagleBoy
Posted 2013-02-12 13:12:29 and read 7960 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):
So what if a company wants to buy another? Happens all the time. Governments should stop being involved in private business deals.

Yes, if its a private business deal. This is not private as it affects millions of air travellers and it reflects their desire to have choice in their travel rather than experience a FR monopoly.

And this is not the same as the BA/Bmi merger where Bmi allowed themselves to be bought, in this case EI do not want the advances of FR, at any price.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 19):
FR seems to own almost 30% of EI's stock, but I couldn't locate how that effects the makeup of the Board of Directors. Does anyone know where there's a breakdown by affiliation? Ireland's government seems to still own about 25% of the stock as well.

FR own 29%, Irish Govt own 25%, EY own 3%, EI pilots own 3%, an Irish businessman named Denis O'Brian owns another 3%, 15% was gifte to staff when EI floated,no idea how much of this is still in staff hands. All in all only approx 40% of EI shares are free floating on that stock market. Most of the above have indicated that they will not sell to FR or mean to hold onto their stock.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-02-12 13:15:36 and read 7940 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 19):

FR seems to own almost 30% of EI's stock, but I couldn't locate how that effects the makeup of the Board of Directors

FR has no representatives on the EI board - for reasons I can't explain or understand.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
Not just because it FR but to any similar monopoly.

I agree, but given FR's record and the manner in which it has attempted to influence govt policy on aviation (and I use that phrase advisedly, since the Irish govt has never had much interest in aviation policy), it can be seen as very likely that it would attempt to use its dominant position to seek concessions and policy changes which would not be in anyone else's interests apart from FR's.

FR is alleging that government influence led to the decision, but that seems to ignore the weakness of its case and the glaring fact that if FR did buy out EI, it would control nearly 80% of traffic to Ireland and given its record (for example, the way it saw off U2), it would act in a predatory manner.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-12 13:21:20 and read 7839 times.

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 20):
Most of the above have indicated that they will not sell to FR or mean to hold onto their stock.
Quoting kaitak (Reply 21):
FR has no representatives on the EI board - for reasons I can't explain or understand.

Thanks to you both for the info. I guess I'm used to a system where even 5% will cause rogue investors to begin talking about sitting on the BoD. Perhaps there's some anti-trust types of issues, but I'm truly not versed in EU or Irish securities regulations, so that's just a guess on my part.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: pvjin
Posted 2013-02-12 14:45:25 and read 7058 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 15):

Sad..... I am all for open markets and free trading. So what if a company wants to buy another? Happens all the time. Governments should stop being involved in private business deals.

Yeah we would absolutely love world full of mega airlines crushing all new businesses down and thus decreasing competition & making things worse for the customer as such airlines would have total monopoly in many airports which in practice would mean increase in ticket prices.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-12 15:05:50 and read 6887 times.

I am not happy, but I think Mr. O'Leary will figure something out.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-02-12 15:12:58 and read 6834 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 24):
I think Mr. O'Leary will figure something out.

Preferably the realisation that Ryanair have lost their campaign to take over Aer Lingus...

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-12 15:25:27 and read 6728 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 25):
Preferably the realisation that Ryanair have lost their campaign to take over Aer Lingus...

They don't need to buy Air Lingus to be innovative and succeed. Ryanair still is the largest airline in Europe when we look at the total passengers carried in within Europe. It is making profit and customers are happy to fly with them.
Let the best airline in Europe to continue its great efforts.

[Edited 2013-02-12 15:26:01]

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-02-12 15:30:20 and read 6650 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 26):
Let the best airline in Europe to continue its great efforts.

Exactly - let Ryanair keep doing what they do best, and let Aer Lingus keep doing what they do best - separately. Then you get the best of both worlds, which is a competitive and fair air travel market in Ireland.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: DFWHeavy
Posted 2013-02-12 15:57:58 and read 6450 times.

I completely agree with KL911,

So what is there is a "Monopoly". No one said someone else couldn't start an airline and compete. I'm sick of governments involved in every aspect of everyone's lives. If 2 companies want to merge, the government shouldn't be telling them they can't. It's sickening.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: N867DA
Posted 2013-02-12 16:05:29 and read 6385 times.

Are Ryanair and Aer Lingus Ireland's only airlines? Are other airlines in Europe allowed to fly domestic Irish flight if they'd like to (a quick search for SNN-DUB shows only EI and BA flights, so I assume yes)?

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2013-02-12 16:09:46 and read 6590 times.

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 28):
So what is there is a "Monopoly". No one said someone else couldn't start an airline and compete. I'm sick of governments involved in every aspect of everyone's lives. If 2 companies want to merge, the government shouldn't be telling them they can't. It's sickening.

I'm glad that monopolies and cartels are regulated against. It is potentially diabolical for the consumer otherwise, particularly when the companies concerned provide important public transport services. I realise there can sometimes be too much interference, but seriously, why would you want the worst excess of capitalism to be inflicted on the public when the reality is that a balance should be struck? There are definitely times when you can't just say 'sod the people' and let companies just do whatever they like. People can start up airlines to compete, but realistically when there is only one player dominating the market it can be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to do.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: EagleBoy
Posted 2013-02-12 16:10:19 and read 6610 times.

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 28):
I'm sick of governments involved in every aspect of everyone's lives. If 2 companies want to merge, the government shouldn't be telling them they can't. It's sickening.

This is most definitely NOT 2 companies wanting to merge...........

This is company that has a large (and very unwelcome) minority shareholding it one of its main competitor's trying to enact a hostile takeover that would result in the first company controlling 80% of a market from a region with no alternative product.

This case is less about Govt interference and more about Govt protection of the consumer. Market forces will ensure weak companies die off, this is not protectionism as neither of these companies is in danger of dying off anytime soon. (Unlike the 'competitor' put forward as an answer to the EU inquiry)

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: EIDL
Posted 2013-02-12 16:22:46 and read 6566 times.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 25):
Are Ryanair and Aer Lingus Ireland's only airlines? Are other airlines in Europe allowed to fly domestic Irish flight if they'd like to (a quick search for SNN-DUB shows only EI and BA flights, so I assume yes)?

There are two other Irish passenger airlines, but one (Aer Arann - RE) operates solely under franchise for Aer Lingus and the other (CityJet - WX) is owned by Air France.

There are no flights SNN-DUB - anything offered is a connection via somewhere else. There are two domestic routes in the entire country, one operated by Aer Arann and one by Loganair.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: a320fan
Posted 2013-02-12 21:02:47 and read 5619 times.

Ah, Thank God that this most likely wont happen. This is solely a plan of Ryanair's to kill off their main competitor in their home market and nothing else. If this got through, Aer Lingus would be gone in the blink of an eye.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: p201055r
Posted 2013-02-13 00:11:06 and read 5065 times.

Three quick points:-

1. Ryanair, a vocal critic of various forms of authority is ever the hapless victim when things go against it (according to its own publicity blurb), but is surprisingly fast to run, seeking succour from the authority of the Courts when an issue can be replayed (and re-publicised).
2. On balance I don't think the proposed take-over would have been good for the Country, what would remain of Aer Lingus or the very many staff and ancillary workers employed by that company or relying on its business.
3. I am at a complete loss to understand the proposed machinations between Ryanair and FlyBe - dis I not read somewhere the latter was suffering a little downturn, reorganising itself, restructuring finances & aircraft leases/deliveries, so apart from the valuable EIN LHR slots - easily sold for ready cash maybe in 2-3-5 years time if the going got really rough - and despite a funds transfer from RYR, why would they want the bother of setting up and running an Irish off-shoot?

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 01:23:15 and read 4752 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 22):
which is a competitive and fair air travel market in Ireland.

Nobody cares about Ireland except the Irish people itself. Now we are talking about the whole Europe and the world.
I don't care if there is no routes to one island in Ireland, so what? If there is connections from Ireland to London or something like that it should be enough.

[Edited 2013-02-13 01:25:05]

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: Phen
Posted 2013-02-13 01:42:46 and read 4632 times.

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 23):
If 2 companies want to merge, the government shouldn't be telling them they can't.

You've completely missed the essence of this whole story. As EagleBoy pointed out, EI does NOT and will likely never want to merge with FR. Any small amount of reading around the subject would have made that clear to you. In this case the EU Commission does not have any interest other than protecting healthy competition between these two airlines in order to safeguard the interests of the consumer and in turn the economy etc.

A lot of people outside of Ireland including a lot of posters here don't realise the importance of competition in the Irish aviation sector - geographically, Ireland is a very isolated island in the corner of Europe and is not like some other European countries where there is a feasible alternative to international air travel such as high speed rail. Yes Britain is also an island but it has the channel tunnel which provides a realistic and handy alternative to flying between London - Paris/Brussels etc. Ireland and especially its travelling business people rely very heavily on air travel. The arrival of FR was a great milestone in Irish aviation history and certainly helped to break Aer Lingus' monopoly at the time. Lower fares led to a boom in air travel and there has been healthy competition since. Why on earth should we revert back to that situation again; this time with FR holding the monopoly? Absolute madness!! Long live competition as far as I'm concerned...

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: Phen
Posted 2013-02-13 01:48:31 and read 4584 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 30):
Nobody cares about Ireland except the Irish people itself.

The same can be said for any country to be honest - I don't care what happens to aviation in Slovakia but I would oppose a hostile takeover which would eliminate choice and competition for Slovakians - be it in their electricity provider or national bus network - whatever. The EU Comission would prevent an anti-competitive merger in Slovakia just as it would anywhere else - and it just has in Ireland.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: bx737
Posted 2013-02-13 01:54:56 and read 4543 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 30):

Interesting suggestion finnishway, to put it in context for you, it would be acceptable for you to have one air route between Helsinki and Stockholm, no land connections to the rest of Europe, four passenger ferries a day to your nearest neighbour and a thrice weekly ferry connection to another country. I don't think that would be good enough for you. That is the reality of alternate connections from Ireland.

I am glad the EU have apparently rejected the take over. Contrary to popular belief by some posters here, FR is not an honourable organisation. A judge in Ireland stated in a court case that Ryanair and the truth were not compatible. Also they breached an agreement they made with Shannon airport and caused passenger numbers to plummet and the DAA pursued them for compensation for breach of contract, which the DAA got. With this in mind, how can you believe that the remedies would be adhered to.

There is an open skies agreement with Ireland and the EU and also the USA, yet very few European airlines have entered the Irish market. The question why has to be asked. I know the you may say the economic situation is not conducive to opening new routes, but US carriers have opened routes in that same period. The lack of new carriers to Europe is the Ryanair effect. Only one carrier has successfully competed with Ryanair, that is Aer Lingus, thus Ryanair's desire to get rid of competition.

It is worth bearing in mind that Shannon and Fuerteventura are two airports who have been badly burned by Ryanair in the past. Ryanair played their usual airport charges card in FUE and cut back on routes, as most other airlines pulled out of the FUE market, the tourism industry fell apart. It is not good for consumers to have a monopoly and that is what the EU are bearing in mind in their decision.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: Aesma
Posted 2013-02-13 02:08:36 and read 4438 times.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 24):
Are other airlines in Europe allowed to fly domestic Irish flight if they'd like to (a quick search for SNN-DUB shows only EI and BA flights, so I assume yes)?

Yes European airlines can fly any European route they wish.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: p201055r
Posted 2013-02-13 02:28:18 and read 4344 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 30):


Nobody cares about Ireland except the Irish people itself. Now we are talking about the whole Europe and the world.
I don't care if there is no routes to one island in Ireland, so what? If there is connections from Ireland to London or something like that it should be enough.

Missing the point I think suomalainentapa - Ryanair's hostile take-over bid for Aer Lingus may only be the start of broader expansion plans - the wish to start a TATL service being one part we are fairly certain of - all in the name of greater consumer efficacy, but in reality it feels little more than cash-grabbing and opposition eliminating moves by Ryanair.
While, for example, the majors in Norway, Sweden and Denmark - SAS (until the next financial crisis, anyway) and Norwegian appear to be reasonably well shielded from Ryanair's sphere of interest, how "safe" might Finnair be from a hostile Ryanair bid in the future? Would we then say no-one cares about Finland except the Finns? Would it be of little significance if the exit hub from Suomi to the World outside Northern Europe was through Frankfurt, Stockholm or Oslo?

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: ju068
Posted 2013-02-13 02:59:24 and read 4153 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 35):
Why fly to Ireland when you can fly to UK which is much bigger market than country that can't handle its financial problems?

So according to your logic no one should go to Finland just because there is Russia and Sweden next to it?

Funny you mention the economy, as both Aer Lingus and Ryanair are profitable, so it is not like they rely on tax payers' money.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 03:02:35 and read 4127 times.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 38):
So according to your logic no one should go to Finland just because there is Russia and Sweden next to it?

Depends on subject.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 38):
Funny you mention the economy

I meant about the Ireland and its economy in total.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: bx737
Posted 2013-02-13 03:03:04 and read 4126 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 35):
Why don't they then say to the Finnish government to open railway markets? There is only one railway company allowed to operate passenger traffic in Finland and that one is owned by the state.Why there is alcohol monopoly in Finland?Lets get rid of the monopolies then.

I don't know about the railway market or the alcohol market in Finland, but I agree, lets get rid of monopolies, thus the Ryanair take over of Aer Lingus should not be allowed go ahead as it would create a monopoly situation. If the takeover was allowed to go ahead Ryanair would control over 80% of air travel to the island of Ireland. How is this beneficial to the consumer? Ryanair has been known to increase fares when they have a monopoly on routes.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 35):
There are no straight land connections from Helsinki to the rest of Europe.

There is a land connection between Finland and Russia, Sweden and Norway, that is more of a land connection than between the island of Ireland and Europe.Yes it may take a considerable amount of time to go between various parts of Europe from Finland, but there are alternatives to drive which there are not from Ireland.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 35):
Yes it is. The most honourable company in Ireland.

If that is the case, why did Judge Peter Kelly say that Ryanair and the truth were "uncomfortable bedfellows"? The judiciary are independent and this is what a member of the judicary said. I don't think that this indicates that Ryanair is the most honourable company in Ireland. Furthermore an honourable company would not call its customers idiots, something that Ryanair has done. I could go on, but don't want to appear to be Ryanair bashing. I am pointing out that the EU are right to refuse this takeover on the grounds of competition. The Flybe deal was an attempt to introduce competition, but picking an airline that is in financial difficulties, is shedding 300 employees and paying them €100million to compete with Ryanair sounds insane to me.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 35):
Why fly to Ireland when you can fly to UK which is much bigger market than country that can't handle its financial problems?

The UK is a bigger market and LHR is currently operating at or very near to full capacity. Over 24 million people flew into and out of Ireland last year which proves that there is a market in Ireland which can operate independently of the UK. Bear in mind that EI did make a profit of €69million out of the Irish market last year. It is well served in a very competitive situation by EI and FR, competing with one another all to the benefit of the consumer.

However in your ideal situation, you would want to see this market wiped out, one air route out of Ireland, to London and the use of ferries from Ireland. Please explain how this is of benefit to the Irish consumer, mind you I do note that you don't care about the Irish consumer. Putting it in a Finnish context, we should close all land borders from Finland (so you can't drive from Finland or get the train from Finland to anywhere else in Europe), have one air route to Stockholm and cut the number of ferries from Finland to the rest of Europe until the amount of connections are the same as from Ireland. Do you think this would be acceptable?

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: ju068
Posted 2013-02-13 03:08:14 and read 4084 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 37):
Depends on subject.

Aha... so double standards.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 37):
I meant about the Ireland and its economy in total.

Well, we are not discussing the overall state of the Irish economy on here but the state of its aviation sector. I guess you went off topic.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 03:09:50 and read 4101 times.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 36):
What exactly do you mean by "between this island and mainland in Ireland"?

We have been talking about some island in Ireland and its connections to the mainland.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 36):
Where did you get that information from?

I concluded it myself.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 36):
So by your logic nobody would want to fly to Ireland because it's beside the UK which is bigger?

Pretty much yes.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 36):
Just for the sake of pointing it out, you do know Dublin airport is busier than your airport in the beautiful city of Helsinki.

I know, but Helsinki is not beautiful at all.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 36):
I suppose by your logic nobody would want to fly to Belgium for example, when it's beside France which is a much bigger market?

As Mr. O'Leary has said "get out of Brussels as fast as you can". I think he said that it is the "Evil empire" or something like that. Yes, go to France instead of Belgium and go to Germany or UK instead of France.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 36):
despite some posters here trying to explain it to you.

You should understand that everybody have their own opinions. I think this topic was not meant to be only against or on behalf of Ryanair? I am a big fan of Ryanair. It is the same thing in electronics. I am an Apple fanboy and I will always be against Nokia, because that company sucks.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: Danny
Posted 2013-02-13 03:21:38 and read 4003 times.

Clearly double standards. No problem with BA buying BMI but Ryanair cannot buy Aer Lingus  

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 03:36:28 and read 3916 times.

Quoting Danny (Reply 41):
No problem with BA buying BMI but Ryanair cannot buy Aer Lingus

That is not my opinion if you are referring to me.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: ju068
Posted 2013-02-13 03:46:36 and read 3850 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 42):

Yes but normally you should think that as after the merger there are less options to fly into the United Kingdom... you know, so that people do not have to go to Ireland... or God forbid Belgium.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: Jambost
Posted 2013-02-13 03:47:23 and read 3856 times.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 24):

I would also note easyjet , jet2 and Flybe as they base operations in Northern Ireland.

There is no physical boarder to restrain those in Northern Ireland to use DUB or any other airport on the Island. The islands population is estimated to be: 4.6 + 1.8 totaling to 6.4 million.

Passengers not conveniently located to DUB either fly and transfer from available European alternatives served by their local airport or travel the extra mile to use direct flights from Dublin.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 30):

You fail to see that the Irish flag carrier can survive and make profit despite competing with FR 's most aggressive business techniques and the conveniently accessed world hub that is London .
Also note as I mentioned above DUB serves Northern Ireland like any other part of the Island totalling the potential population to 6.4 million.

I would also like to mention that the more Irish people emigrate the stronger VFR [Visiting Friends Relatives] traffic will strengthen existing air routes direct and indirect to Ireland. Music to BA EI EY EK TK etc ears as they and others link Ireland to the world.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 30):
Nobody cares about Ireland except the Irish people itself.

Europe does care, they bailed us out!
It is you that does not care. The fate of EI relies on the justice and laws of business. EU is just backing up that the rules are being followed legally.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: Phen
Posted 2013-02-13 03:50:54 and read 3832 times.

Quoting bx737 (Reply 38):
Quoting finnishway (Reply 35):
Yes it is. The most honourable company in Ireland.

        

Quoting Danny (Reply 41):
No problem with BA buying BMI but Ryanair cannot buy Aer Lingus

   And around in circles we go again. I think we've discussed it at length now with this and other previous threads. Lets move on and await the UK OFT investigation outcome. Looking forward to FR's reaction to that!

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 03:56:49 and read 3801 times.

Quoting Phen (Reply 45):
And around in circles we go again. I think we've discussed it at length now with this and other previous threads.

I agree with you. I wonder how many new friends I have made in these discussions. If there will be A.net meeting or something like that in Ireland, maybe I should come there and see it myself.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: EagleBoy
Posted 2013-02-13 04:01:25 and read 3772 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 30):
I don't care if there is no routes to one island in Ireland, so what? If there is connections from Ireland to London or something like that it should be enough.

Lets hope you don't work for the Finnish tourist board

Quoting Danny (Reply 41):

Clearly double standards. No problem with BA buying BMI but Ryanair cannot buy Aer Lingus

BA/Bmi is very different to EI/FR.

Bmi was a basketcase airline that had been going downhill (sadly) for several years. It was not offering healthy competion to BA on more than a handful of shorthaul routes. It was losing money and contracting. BA bought Bmi with the agreement of the Bmi parent company (LH) Together they still only control 55% of slots from the major airport of the UK, which has at least 5-6 other international airports operating. (GLA,MAN,BHX,LGW,STN,LCY, etc) So this agreement does not create a monopoly situation for the UK and/or London market

FR/EI: Both companies are making healthy profits. EI was growing its market share from FR as FR was expanding over Europe. Both compete directly/indirectly on approx 70% of their routes from Ireland. Due to there competition mosr European airlines are loath to enter the Irish marlet (Please see what happend to WizzAir at ORK recently, as well as EX many years ago)
FR are making a hostile takeover bid for EI. The combined entity would control over 80% of flights from DUB, ORK and SNN....the only significant airports operating in Ireland. (They would also have a majority of traffic from the BFS/BHD market) This deal would result in FR controlling air traffic out of Ireland. The only solution to the claims of monopoly was for FR to fund an artificial competitor which was only legally bound to operate for 3 years.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-02-13 04:09:13 and read 3721 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 30):
Nobody cares about Ireland except the Irish people itself.

Oh yes they do, and you should to. Just about every European country owes every other European country billions in bonds - I don't for one minute think that Finland is any different. So whilst you might think that something affecting the Irish economy has no affect on you, if it affects Ireland's ability to repay their debt to your country (which was highly likely) then it would have directly affected you.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 30):
I don't care if there is no routes to one island in Ireland, so what? If there is connections from Ireland to London or something like that it should be enough.

That is quite possibly the most ridiculous and embarrassingly naive statement I have ever read.


Dan  

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 04:11:40 and read 3715 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 48):
if it affects Ireland's ability to repay their debt to your country (which was highly likely) then it would have directly affected you.

I am not waiting Ireland or Greece to pay much back to us. Finnish people pays your loans back with higher taxes.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 48):

That is quite possibly the most ridiculous and embarrassingly naive statement I have ever read.

It is not. That is true. Why fly from an island to Dublin when you can fly to London?

Ok, lets stop this arguing.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-02-13 04:36:06 and read 3572 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 49):
Why fly from an island to Dublin when you can fly to London?

Err, that doesn't even make sense?

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 04:49:47 and read 3506 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 50):
Err, that doesn't even make sense?

Yes it does. If you need to go abroad then go via London.

If you need to go to Dublin, go by bus, car, ferry, train or walking. Ireland is so small country and distances aren't too long.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: bx737
Posted 2013-02-13 05:03:26 and read 3413 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 46):

We have a huge differing of opinion and there is nothing wrong with that. If there was an Anet meeting and we both went, I would like to meet you. It is a pain that we are all paying extra taxes for the stupidity of some, but that is another days discussion.

I still disagree with your hypothesis about using London as a transit point, it is interesting to note that EI had 250,000 transfer pax from Europe to the US and vice versa. As I said before LHR is at or near full capacity, so they cannot absorb more, EI carried 900,000 across the Atlantic last year. This has to be born in mind.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-02-13 05:08:48 and read 3382 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 51):
Yes it does.

No it didn't, but I now see what you mean. It is Ireland, not an island.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 51):
If you need to go to Dublin, go by bus, car, ferry, train or walking.

If only the world was that simple.


Dan  

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: Danny
Posted 2013-02-13 05:14:16 and read 3347 times.

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 47):
FR/EI: Both companies are making healthy profits. EI was growing its market share from FR as FR was expanding over Europe. Both compete directly/indirectly on approx 70% of their routes from Ireland. Due to there competition mosr European airlines are loath to enter the Irish marlet (Please see what happend to WizzAir at ORK recently, as well as EX many years ago)
FR are making a hostile takeover bid for EI. The combined entity would control over 80% of flights from DUB, ORK and SNN....the only significant airports operating in Ireland. (They would also have a majority of traffic from the BFS/BHD market) This deal would result in FR controlling air traffic out of Ireland. The only solution to the claims of monopoly was for FR to fund an artificial competitor which was only legally bound to operate for 3 years.

If EI is such a great business then the shareholders will not sell their shares to Ryanair and the whole takeover will be dead. No need for governments to uintervene.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-02-13 05:29:20 and read 3275 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
But the off chance that it could possibly happen, along with the with the free advertizing it would get from trying it is worth every penny it has spent on the process. And it is not even really negative like they often in the news for, it is just an industry action. Pretty favorable publicity for FR.

Congratulations for diving into the pile of manure and finding a pony!

It seems the FR threat has managed to do something no one thought was possible: it's got the EI management and employees working together to avoid the common enemy, to the point where EI is even profitable.

It kind of reminds me of how in the USA we had US try to take over DL in bankruptcy which seemed to be the catalyst needed to get DL's management and staff working for a common goal, which was being strong enough to fend off US or any other interloper.

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 26):
This is company that has a large (and very unwelcome) minority shareholding it one of its main competitor's trying to enact a hostile takeover that would result in the first company controlling 80% of a market from a region with no alternative product.

Just to play devil's advocate, isn't such levels of control already happening in various parts of the EU?

Quoting p201055r (Reply 29):

1. Ryanair, a vocal critic of various forms of authority is ever the hapless victim when things go against it (according to its own publicity blurb), but is surprisingly fast to run, seeking succour from the authority of the Courts when an issue can be replayed (and re-publicised).

Not to mention they happily suckle the governmental teat when it comes to favorable terms and tax benefits to set up shop at various airports.

Quoting p201055r (Reply 29):
2. On balance I don't think the proposed take-over would have been good for the Country, what would remain of Aer Lingus or the very many staff and ancillary workers employed by that company or relying on its business.

On balance, you are correct.

I'm still interested to see if FR does try to set up TATL service. Clearly that would have been made much easier by swallowing EI, but one can also see there's probably some money to be made there if they do get service established.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 05:35:56 and read 3252 times.

Quoting bx737 (Reply 52):
We have a huge differing of opinion and there is nothing wrong with that. If there was an Anet meeting and we both went, I would like to meet you.

That is nice to hear and I am not trying to be annoying. I try to tell my (sometimes stupid) opinions to you.
Wouldn't it be appropriate to fly to Ireland with EI after all these comments?

Quoting bx737 (Reply 52):
As I said before LHR is at or near full capacity
FR doesn't fly to LHR. I was talking about every airport in London.

[Edited 2013-02-13 05:37:01]

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-02-13 05:41:44 and read 3216 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 56):
FR doesn't fly to LHR. I was talking about every airport in London.

The South East of England at a whole is almost at capacity, pretty soon it will have reached it.


Dan  

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 05:43:32 and read 3209 times.

I'm glad this saga seems to be finally coming to a happy end.
Now all we have to endure is a few weeks of O'Leary and his spokespeople complaing and whining about how the world is so mean to them, plus the obligatory court appeal. They also filed an appeal against the 2006/2007 takeover rejection - but the rejection was upheld by the court.
I fully expect a new appeal to fail in much the same manner.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: sandyb123
Posted 2013-02-13 05:43:59 and read 3207 times.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 10):
Sad..... I am all for open markets and free trading. So what if a company wants to buy another? Happens all the time. Governments should stop being involved in private business deals.

Agreed in principle, however I can understand it in this case. Monopolies and mergers comes into play here as a united EI & FR would create a near monopoly in EU-ROI flying.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 50):
Err, that doesn't even make sense?

LOL I think our young Finnish Friend has had one to many schnapps.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 56):
Wouldn't it be appropriate to fly to Ireland with EI after all these comments?

Depends on route, schedule and cost.

I must admit though, I do and would fly on any European airline including the budgets, but I have never and would not fly FR.

Sandyb123

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 06:01:29 and read 3116 times.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 59):
Agreed in principle, however I can understand it in this case. Monopolies and mergers comes into play here as a united EI & FR would create a near monopoly in EU-ROI flying.

Monopolies are usually runned by countries. That would be just a big market share in this case.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 59):
LOL I think our young Finnish Friend has had one to many schnapps.

None, yet.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 59):
Depends on route, schedule and cost.

HEL-DUB with EI instead of HEL-DUB with AY. There is no direct route from Finland to Ireland with FR.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 59):
but I have never and would not fly FR.

I havent flown with them either, but I would.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: shamrock604
Posted 2013-02-13 06:03:01 and read 3106 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 24):

[quote=finnishway,reply=30]

I'd go so far as to say we have a little bit of a chip on our shoulder.

Go to the UK because it's bigger. Dont go to Ireland because it cant handle its economy. We'll be stuck paying back your loans.

Come on, Finnishway, just come out and say it.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 06:14:56 and read 3038 times.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 61):
Come on, Finnishway, just come out and say it.

Say what?

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 61):
Go to the UK because it's bigger. Dont go to Ireland because it cant handle its economy. We'll be stuck paying back your loans.

You mean I should say that? Well, you said it already, no need to repeat it.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: Toulouse
Posted 2013-02-13 06:20:19 and read 3016 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 40):
some island in Ireland and its connections to the mainland.

Really think you need to check as I have no idea what you're talking about and I think you should maybe take out an atlas while you're at it.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 49):
I am not waiting Ireland or Greece to pay much back to us. Finnish people pays your loans back with higher taxes.

Ok, check your facts. Firstly, an no offense to Greece, but Ireland's credit rating, while much worse than a few years ago, is BBB and has been improved just last week from "negative" to "stable". Greece sadly has junk status. GDP measurements of Finland and Ireland are quite similar with Finland only a few places ahead of us. In fact, GDP per capita, we are actually ranked quite a few places ahead of Finland and within the top 15 world-wide. Actually the Economist survey on best countries to be born in (covering economy, health, safety, quality of live, future prospects), Ireland Finland are very close with Finland deemed 11th best place in the world and Ireland just trailing behind with a score difference of 0.02 in 12th place. Also Ireland is, believe it or not, a "net" contributor to the EU.

Anyway, argument is not on economics.

While you may love Ryanair, and I'm very happy you are such a supporter of an Irish company (despite your other comments about Ireland), we who are here in Ireland can assure you there is nothing to be gained by this take-over, it is purely a personal vendetta by MOL who wants to wipe out his biggest competitor at his home base, DUB, perhaps one of the few airlines which has managed to successfully battle against FR at its own home-base, survive, and actually make profits, and offer good service to its consumers on top of that.

The EU has already blocked previous attempted hostile take-overs by FR of EI. While you understandably may not be aware of all the facts, I assure you the majority of people affected (those circa 25 million people who use Irish airports every year), do not favor this take-over as it will clearly wipe-out an airline and create a monopoly in a country that as an island nation is extremely dependent on air travel. Also, as an aviation fan which you must been being a member of this site, why would you want to see one if Europe's legacy airlines, with over 75 years of history, destroyed? This is nothing against FR, this is all about protecting EI.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 06:21:03 and read 3016 times.

Quoting Danny (Reply 54):
If EI is such a great business then the shareholders will not sell their shares to Ryanair and the whole takeover will be dead. No need for governments to uintervene.

Governments are there to protect their citizens. In this case from a monopoly. In other cases, monopolies are broken up by law, in this case the law is concerned with avoiding a monopoly to begin with.
There are very good reasons why every country with any economy to speak of has anti-trust and competition laws.
A company takeover that would lead to 80% of a market being in the hand of a single company will come under scrutiny - and will likely be disallowed unless under very special circumstances - in most jurisdictions.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 60):
Monopolies are usually runned by countries. That would be just a big market share in this case.

Market share is one of the criteria for qualifying a company's market position as a monopoly.
Ownership, however, is not. I.e. whether a company is state-owned or privately held is immaterial. In fact, some of the most famous monopolies ever were privately owned - Standard Oil and AT&T would come to mind.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 06:48:33 and read 2881 times.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 63):
Really think you need to check as I have no idea what you're talking about and I think you should maybe take out an atlas while you're at it.

No, you need to read the other discussion. We were talking about this in a different discussion.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 63):
Ok, check your facts. Firstly, an no offense to Greece, but Ireland's credit rating, while much worse than a few years ago, is BBB and has been improved just last week from "negative" to "stable". Greece sadly has junk status. GDP measurements of Finland and Ireland are quite similar with Finland only a few places ahead of us. In fact, GDP per capita, we are actually ranked quite a few places ahead of Finland and within the top 15 world-wide. Actually the Economist survey on best countries to be born in (covering economy, health, safety, quality of live, future prospects), Ireland Finland are very close with Finland deemed 11th best place in the world and Ireland just trailing behind with a score difference of 0.02 in 12th place. Also Ireland is, believe it or not, a "net" contributor to the EU.

Finland is the best country in the world. Finland has the best credit rating with a few other European countries. We have paid debts of many countries. Finland is also one of the net contributors to the EU. In conclusion Finland is a better country than Ireland.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 63):
While you may love Ryanair, and I'm very happy you are such a supporter of an Irish company

Yes, I also support Irish economy as Ryanair would pay more taxes after this deal.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 63):
majority of people affected (those circa 25 million people who use Irish airports every year)

How many of these people travel with Ryanair? I guess most of them.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 63):
create a monopoly in a country that as an island nation is extremely dependent on air travel.

It is not a monopoly and it wouldn't be one. It would just be a big market share. Again this is my opinion, we aren't even near a monopoly.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 63):
Also, as an aviation fan which you must been being a member of this site, why would you want to see one if Europe's legacy airlines, with over 75 years of history, destroyed?

Yes I am a big aviation fan, you know I wouldn't mind if AY would collapse. I would actually be happy, because that airline is from somewhere that I won't mention. I don't know what to say to that, it depends on the situation.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 63):
This is nothing against FR, this is all about protecting EI.

This is the problem. I don't want that any airline is protected. If they collapse then they collapse.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 64):
A company takeover that would lead to 80% of a market being in the hand of a single company will come under scrutiny - and will likely be disallowed unless under very special circumstances - in most jurisdictions.
EI can collapse on its own. Some other airline may buy it and cut most of its routes or something like that. There is many ways for FR to gain "monopoly" in Ireland.

[Edited 2013-02-13 06:50:53]

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 06:50:27 and read 2869 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 30):
Nobody cares about Ireland except the Irish people itself. Now we are talking about the whole Europe and the world.

If you don't care about Ireland why are you even interested in FR's repeated takeover attempts of EI and the ensuing competition investigations?
The EU Commission in this case is concerned with the effects of such a takeover on the Irish aviation market. If you're not interested in Ireland, there's no point in following the debate.
The competition ruling will have no effect whatsoever on any non-Irish routes FR currently operates or may wish to operate in the future.

Quoting Phen (Reply 31):
The arrival of FR was a great milestone in Irish aviation history and certainly helped to break Aer Lingus' monopoly at the time. Lower fares led to a boom in air travel and there has been healthy competition since. Why on earth should we revert back to that situation again; this time with FR holding the monopoly? Absolute madness!!

  

Quoting p201055r (Reply 29):
1. Ryanair, a vocal critic of various forms of authority is ever the hapless victim when things go against it (according to its own publicity blurb), but is surprisingly fast to run, seeking succour from the authority of the Courts when an issue can be replayed (and re-publicised).

  
It's interesting how in their PR, everything that doesn't go according to FR's plan is always anybody's fault but Ryanair's. They walk away from a huge plane order they previously talked a lot about: Boeing's fault. They lose a court case about some foolish levy they charge: judicial system doesn't understand the modern world. They lose a case about ash cloud reimbursements: Consumer protection gone mad. They don't get possession of Hangar 6, which they previously passed on when it was offered to them and which in the meantime went to Aer Lingus: DAA's fault and Aer Lingus protectionism. The list goes on.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 40):
Quoting Toulouse (Reply 36):
"So by your logic nobody would want to fly to Ireland because it's beside the UK which is bigger?"
Pretty much yes.

If you apply that same logic, why should anybody want to fly to Frankfurt Hahn or Weeze if you can fly to the much bigger airports FRA and DUS instead, which are much closer to the big cities of Frankfurt/Main and Dusseldorf, respectively?
However, it appears there is a need for connections to more than just the biggest airports, cities, regions and countries. Otherwise, FR of all airlines would have no working business case.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 40):
Quoting Toulouse (Reply 36):
"I suppose by your logic nobody would want to fly to Belgium for example, when it's beside France which is a much bigger market?"
As Mr. O'Leary has said "get out of Brussels as fast as you can". I think he said that it is the "Evil empire" or something like that. Yes, go to France instead of Belgium and go to Germany or UK instead of France.

There is a difference between Brussels the city and Brussels as a symbol for the EU, as O'Leary would have been using it in that context.
O'Leary has said a lot of things about people whenever it suited him. It's easy to lambast Brussels as the "evil empire" (if it's true he said that) when there's an EU decision O'Leary disagrees with. At the same time, he and the company he heads profits hugely from the European common market and airspace, because without it, FR would be more or less bound to flights to/from Ireland. You can't grow your fleet to 300 planes by just serving one island with a total population of less than 7 million. O'Leary also actively campaigned for a "Yes" vote in the second Irish referendum on the Lisbon treaty. Had the treaty not been accepted in that referendum, it would have effectively amounted to Ireland leaving the EU. Seems like O'Leary didn't want that after all, even if (or because?) he's fond of using the EU as a scapegoat whenever it suits him.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 40):
We have been talking about some island in Ireland and its connections to the mainland.

No, we haven't. You might want to look up Ireland on Wikipedia.
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irlanti_%28saari%29
Ireland is an island.*
You cannot get from Cork, Belfast, Dublin etc. to mainland UK or continental Europe by any other means than air or sea.

*) Actually, it's slightly more complicated. There is an island called Ireland, which is politically divided into the independent Republic of Ireland (commonly also referred to as "Ireland") and Northern Ireland, which is a part of the UK.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 51):
If you need to go to Dublin, go by bus, car, ferry, train or walking. Ireland is so small country and distances aren't too long.

As Dan said - if only things were that easy...
Some understanding about intra-Irish air routes, as well as Irish city sizes and distances, road and railway infrastructure would certainly help.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 07:00:01 and read 2836 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 66):
If you don't care about Ireland why are you even interested in FR's repeated takeover attempts of EI and the ensuing competition investigations?

I care about aviation and business.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 66):
If you apply that same logic, why should anybody want to fly to Frankfurt Hahn or Weeze if you can fly to the much bigger airports FRA and DUS instead, which are much closer to the big cities of Frankfurt/Main and Dusseldorf, respectively?

If it is cheaper to fly to smaller airports why not to fly then?

Quoting anfromme (Reply 66):
No, we haven't. You might want to look up Ireland on Wikipedia.

I know that, but I think we have been talking about those smaller islands that belong to Ireland. That is what I have been talking about all the time, when I was talking about ferries.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 66):
As Dan said - if only things were that easy...
Some understanding about intra-Irish air routes, as well as Irish city sizes and distances, road and railway infrastructure would certainly help.

Dublin - Cork 260 km ~ 2,5 hours by car - no need to fly.
Dublin - Waterford 160 km ~ 2 hours by car - no need to fly.

Distances are so short there is no need to fly. I think there are trains also in Ireland, which should be a bit faster.

[Edited 2013-02-13 07:00:22]

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: MIAspotter
Posted 2013-02-13 07:07:38 and read 2788 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 51):
If you need to go to Dublin, go by bus, car, ferry, train or walking. Ireland is so small country and distances aren't too long.


Sure why not, Dublin to Cork should take you just 51 hours. be my guest.

MIAspotter

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 07:10:34 and read 2762 times.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 68):
Dublin to Cork should take you just 51 hours

Maybe by walking, not by driving a car.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: Toulouse
Posted 2013-02-13 07:15:46 and read 2746 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 65):
No, you need to read the other discussion

 
Quoting finnishway (Reply 65):
In conclusion Finland is a better country than Ireland.

  So my friend, when exactly was the last time you visited Ireland. Strange that we actually have net immigration in this country today.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 65):
Yes, I also support Irish economy as Ryanair would pay more taxes after this deal.

Could you please explain this to us?

Quoting finnishway (Reply 65):
How many of these people travel with Ryanair? I guess most of them.

Well I guess you're wrong again. In 2012 Aer Lingus had a 43% market share for all of Ireland, so at least 43% of those passengers flew EI. Interestingly, the UK OFT is even investigating the FR shareholding in EI.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 65):
Again this is my opinion, we aren't even near a monopoly.

Exactly, it is your opinion, and for some reason you do not care to even entertain more informed opinions that are been given to you by numerous people here. Why do you think the EU continually block this HOSTILE take-over attempt. Interestingly, the UK OFT is even investigating the FR shareholding in EI. Anyway, Aer Lingus and Ryanair between them hold about 80% of the entire air travel market in Ireland, which already isn't perfect as we, as the very odd (in your view) consumers who actually want to travel to Ireland, well we have very little choice. Now everyone's point is, today that 80% is shared between two competing airlines, if FR were successful in their HOSTILE take over, ONLY 1 AIRLINE would have 80% market share. If you don't see the negatives of that for consumers, well, there's no point in even attempting to explain to you.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 65):
This is the problem. I don't want that any airline is protected. If they collapse then they collapse.

But Aer Lingus is NOT collapsing. They are making a profit. MOL wants to destroy them so he doesn't have to compete with them.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 66):
Quoting finnishway (Reply 40):
We have been talking about some island in Ireland and its connections to the mainland.

No, we haven't. You might want to look up Ireland on Wikipedia.
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irlanti_%28saari%29
Ireland is an island.*
You cannot get from Cork, Belfast, Dublin etc. to mainland UK or continental Europe by any other means than air or sea.

*) Actually, it's slightly more complicated. There is an island called Ireland, which is politically divided into the independent Republic of Ireland (commonly also referred to as "Ireland") and Northern Ireland, which is a part of the UK.

  

Quoting finnishway (Reply 67):
I know that, but I think we have been talking about those smaller islands that belong to Ireland. That is what I have been talking about all the time, when I was talking about ferries.

   Could you enlighten us as to what smaller islands that belong to Ireland you're talking about? I think the reference you referred to were about ferry links from Ireland to the rest of Europe!

Finnishway, you know, I actually thank you. I'm having a great laugh here

[Edited 2013-02-13 07:19:27]

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: MIAspotter
Posted 2013-02-13 07:17:59 and read 2728 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 69):
Maybe by walking, not by driving a car.

But... that´s what you suggested no? bus, car, ferry, train OR WALKING...

Australia is also an ¨Island¨ you can try walking from Sydney to Perh.

MIAspotter.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: irishair98
Posted 2013-02-13 07:18:00 and read 2733 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 67):

'Dublin - Cork 260 km ~ 2,5 hours by car - no need to fly.
Dublin - Waterford 160 km ~ 2 hours by car - no need to fly.

Distances are so short there is no need to fly. I think there are trains also in Ireland, which should be a bit faster.'

Donegal - Dublin 293 km - 4.5 hours - can fly if chose to

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: bx737
Posted 2013-02-13 07:19:18 and read 2722 times.

Finnishway, just for clarity the majority of the approximately 23 million people who flew in and out of DUB, ORK and SNN last year flew with Aer Lingus with Ryanair in 2nd place, this is actually a reverse of the situation about four years ago. Also referring to the islands around Ireland, the only ones with air services are the Aran Islands, off the Galway, Clare coast. The air services are provided by Aer Arann Islands using three Islanders from Inverin outside Galway. Up until recent times, this was the parent company of Aer Arann Regional.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: rlwynn
Posted 2013-02-13 07:19:26 and read 2718 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 65):
In conclusion Finland is a better country than Ireland.

.
.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 07:22:02 and read 2707 times.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 70):
So my friend, when exactly was the last time you visited Ireland. Strange that we actually have net immigration in this country today.

Never.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 70):
Could you please explain this to us?

No, because I don't know enough to explain that, but maybe you understand what I mean.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 70):
Well I guess you're wrong again.

Don't care. I still would like to know how big market share FR has in Ireland.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 70):
MOL wants to destroy them so he doesn't have to compete with them.

  

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 70):
Could you enlighten us as to what smaller islands that belong to Ireland you're talking about? I think the reference you referred to were about ferry links from Ireland to the rest of Europe!

I don't know how many islands belong to Ireland, but when I look map there seems to be a few of them. I was talking about those islands, not about ferries from Ireland to UK or something like that. I was talking about ferries from Ireland to Ireland, basically.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 70):
Finnishway, you know, I actually thank you. I'm having a great laugh here

Good. Then I havent wasted my time here.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: Toulouse
Posted 2013-02-13 07:26:47 and read 2665 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 75):
I still would like to know how big market share FR has in Ireland.

Sorry, don't know the actual figure. But as I said EI have 43% overall for all the country. Between Aer Lingus and Ryanair it's 80% so I'd say Ryanair's market share would be somewhere in the high 30's or low 40's percentage wise. I'm sure somebody else might have these figures for us.

[Edited 2013-02-13 07:30:00]

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: bx737
Posted 2013-02-13 07:27:03 and read 2697 times.

I was referring to ferries from Ireland to UK and Continent. There are very few internal ferry services in Ireland. The only ones I can think of are the FBD Dunbrody in Wexford, the Aran Islands are served by passenger only ferries and there is the Waterford Castle chain ferry.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 07:30:19 and read 2665 times.

Quoting bx737 (Reply 73):
Finnishway, just for clarity the majority of the approximately 23 million people who flew in and out of DUB, ORK and SNN last year flew with Aer Lingus with Ryanair in 2nd place, this is actually a reverse of the situation about four years ago

Yes, but I would like to know how many passengers Ireland would lose if there wouldn't be Ryanair's flights at all.

Quoting bx737 (Reply 77):
was referring to ferries from Ireland to UK and Continent.

So we were talking about different things.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 07:45:53 and read 2588 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 67):
Quoting anfromme (Reply 66):
"If you don't care about Ireland why are you even interested in FR's repeated takeover attempts of EI and the ensuing competition investigations?"

I care about aviation and business.

With all due respect, I think you should take a minimum interest in the Irish aviation market if you want to pass judgement on a takeover bid and competition authority decision that almost exclusively affects the Irish aviation market.
A statement like "Nobody cares about Ireland except the Irish people itself. [...] I don't care if there is no routes to one island in Ireland, so what?" doesn't suggest you have that interest.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 67):
I know that, but I think we have been talking about those smaller islands that belong to Ireland. That is what I have been talking about all the time, when I was talking about ferries.

No, it should have been clear that we were talking about Ireland the island. Neither FR nor EI have or had any scheduled services to any minor islands off the coast of Ireland, so those small islands were irrelevant to the takeover bid and any discussions about it.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 67):
Dublin - Cork 260 km ~ 2,5 hours by car - no need to fly.
Dublin - Waterford 160 km ~ 2 hours by car - no need to fly.

Those timings show that you've never attempted to actually drive those routes. Good luck trying to get from Cork city centre to Dublin city centre in 2.5 hours. I know Google Maps gives that time, but it's not realistic.

In any case, I think you're getting distracted here.
The points myself and other have been making about FR/EI and competition were never about domestic Irish air routes, because there virtually aren't any, as pointed out before in this thread.
So the whole competition concern and debate is about routes from Ireland to/from anywhere that's not Ireland - i.e. routes to/from the main island. Contrary to domestic routes, there are plenty of international routes. Enough of them to support Aer Lingus even in competition with Ryanair.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-13 07:51:34 and read 2554 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 79):
but it's not realistic.

But its not too wrong either.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 79):
The points myself and other have been making about FR/EI and competition were never about domestic Irish air routes, because there virtually aren't any, as pointed out before in this thread.

I did talk about them so basically I have been talkin bulls... all the time.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 08:00:53 and read 2504 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 78):
Yes, but I would like to know how many passengers Ireland would lose if there wouldn't be Ryanair's flights at all.

A good few, I would imagine. But nobody is suggesting to shut down FR or reduce their service anyway.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-02-13 08:09:09 and read 2445 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 80):
I have been talkin bulls... all the time.

I have to agree here. I'm afraid the lesson to learn from this thread is not to discus something which you don't have any clue or interest in.


Dan  

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: EagleBoy
Posted 2013-02-13 08:20:43 and read 2374 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 75):
Don't care. I still would like to know how big market share FR has in Ireland

FR have approx 38% market share, with EI at 43%. Between the 2 they have over 80% market share from Ireland. On some routes they have 100%.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 78):
Yes, but I would like to know how many passengers Ireland would lose if there wouldn't be Ryanair's flights at all.

How is that relevant? FR are not going anywhere.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: pvjin
Posted 2013-02-13 08:45:14 and read 2271 times.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 65):
Finland is the best country in the world. Finland has the best credit rating with a few other European countries. We have paid debts of many countries. Finland is also one of the net contributors to the EU. In conclusion Finland is a better country than Ireland.

No my friend, although economically our country might be doing a bit better than Ireland (for now, I have full faith in our government messing everything up soon enough), still almost everywhere else this country is worse than Ireland.

People in this country are mostly unfriendly, alcohol is expensive and regulated by the government, almost nothing to see anywhere in this country, food is mostly boring, Nokia is going down...

For anyone out there planning to visit Finland I would recommend you to stay inside Helsinki-Vantaa airport area whole time of your stay and use it as a base for your travels to surrounding countries, if you wish to see nice northern nature you will find it much better in Sweden and Norway, and other than nature there's absolutely nothing in this country. If you wish to do some city travel take a flight to Tallinn, it has some interesting history unlike Helsinki.

Ireland is superior to us culturally just like almost every other European country.

And yes I know this post is total off topic but last 30 posts of this thread are mostly off topic too.

Peace and love,

- Finnish tourist board

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 09:16:08 and read 2223 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 84):
alcohol is expensive and regulated by the government, [...] food is mostly boring,

Sounds like Ireland to me.  
Quoting pvjin (Reply 84):
For anyone out there planning to visit Finland I would recommend you to stay inside Helsinki-Vantaa airport area whole time of your stay and use it as a base for your travels to surrounding countries, if you wish to see nice northern nature you will find it much better in Sweden and Norway, and other than nature there's absolutely nothing in this country.

Well, if you like skyscrapers and cities, you shouldn't come to Ireland, either. Its appeal is the landscape (and tiny towns, usually with one pub per 10 citizens or thereabouts, plus one church) much more than the cities. So again, what you describe does sound a bit like Ireland.

Incidentally, we'll be travelling to Finland this summer and will have a look at Helsinki followed by some time out on a lake in central Finland. I guess we'll then be in a position to judge if Helsinki and the country in general is really as boring as you make it out to be.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 84):
And yes I know this post is total off topic but last 30 posts of this thread are mostly off topic too.

Mostly because somebody had to be educated about the geography of Ireland  
In fairness, that geography is quite relevant to any discussion about Irish aviation in general and the FR/EI takeover bid in particular.

In an attempt to bring this back on topic - Our trip to Finland will use the following flight connections:
ORK-MAN (Aer Arann operating as Aer Lingus Regional)
MAN-HEL (Finnair)
HEL-AMS (Finnair)
AMS-ORK (Aer Lingus)

That whole itinerary - much like pretty much any other holiday and business trip we've made, including to Croatia, Cuba, Seychelles, India, the US and Japan - would not have been feasible without the extensive network of codeshare and interline agreements - plus the franchise with Aer Arann - that Aer Lingus maintains. FR has no such agreements because they don't fit their business model. Which is fine for them. But to have an airline that has such agreements is an essential part of competition and choice for the travelling public.
Bring FR and EI into the same entity, you not only end up with a company suddenly holding 80% market share (which is one cause for concern), but you also end up with no more codeshare/interline agreements on any of these 80% of connections (limiting customer choice even further than an 80% market share by a single company does already).

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 82):
I have to agree here. I'm afraid the lesson to learn from this thread is not to discus something which you don't have any clue or interest in.

I'm afraid that probably sums it up quite well.

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: shamrock604
Posted 2013-02-13 09:19:42 and read 2215 times.

Folks,

We are clearly talking to a bit of a supremacist here.

We should remind of course about Finland's fiscal crisis of a few years back. They were not in the Euro at that time, so at least had some control over how to deal with it, unlike us who had a solution placed upon us.

I work with some Finnish people and thankfully they display nome of the complete arrogance displayed here, so dont judge them too harshly.

I suggest this chap goes back to reading the handbook of the "true Finns"
Political party who spreads this borderline bigotted garbage around Finland.

I, for one, am now switching off.

[Edited 2013-02-13 09:58:43]

Topic: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-02-13 10:01:14 and read 2153 times.

I will assume that FR initially bought shares in EI because they ultimately wanted to take over the company, now that the regulators are stating that they cannot, what is the sensible / reasonable course of action moving forward?
Why keep their shares in a competitor that operates in the same market thay they cannot own, is it best for them to sell what they have and then work as best / hard as they can to increase their market share at the expense of their competitor?

Yes there shares are an investment, but it is an investment in a competitor, not a carrier that mostly offers a complimentary service.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: EIDL
Posted 2013-02-13 10:09:49 and read 2132 times.

Quoting bx737 (Reply 77):
I was referring to ferries from Ireland to UK and Continent. There are very few internal ferry services in Ireland. The only ones I can think of are the FBD Dunbrody in Wexford, the Aran Islands are served by passenger only ferries and there is the Waterford Castle chain ferry.

There's actually probably close to 100 internal ferry services in Ireland. Wildly more than domestic air services (of which there are less than 10 - even counting all the permutations of Aran Islands to each other as well as to NNR and the helicopter to Tory).

[Edited 2013-02-13 10:11:17]

Topic: RE: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: bx737
Posted 2013-02-13 10:19:34 and read 2092 times.

Quoting EIDL (Reply 88):

Thank you EIDL for updating me. I used a book about Ferry services in Northern Europe for my info. I stand corrected. Could you tell me more about the helicopter service in Donegal, I didn't know about that.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-13 10:20:38 and read 2095 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 87):
Why keep their shares in a competitor that operates in the same market thay they cannot own, is it best for them to sell what they have and then work as best / hard as they can to increase their market share at the expense of their competitor?

Well, the Aer Lingus share price has gone up from around 1.10 two months ago to just short of 1.30. So FR's share is now worth more than before and they're in a better position to sell it now than in 2012.

However, I'm not entirely sure what FR is going to do with the stock now that the takeover looks very unlikely to go through. I believe they mentioned they would sell their share - but I'd take that with a grain or four of salt until I actually see it happening.
The UK competition authority is still to rule over whether even FR's almost-30% share in EI is legal, so they may also be forced to sell at least part of it anyway, depending on the outcome.

EI themselves probably wouldn't mind getting rid of that cuckoo's egg to allow an investment in EI from a non-hostile company.

But again - unless they're legally forced to sell their shares or part thereof (which may or may not happen based on UK authorities' decision), it's anybody's guess what FR are going to do. I wouldn't expect any action on this until either the UK ruling forces a sale or FR has also lost its appeal against the expected EU ruling. I.e. not before Q3 2013.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: EIDL
Posted 2013-02-13 11:06:09 and read 2025 times.

Quoting bx737 (Reply 89):
Thank you EIDL for updating me. I used a book about Ferry services in Northern Europe for my info. I stand corrected. Could you tell me more about the helicopter service in Donegal, I didn't know about that.
http://www.irishhelicopters.com/north-west-health-board.html

It is mainly intended to be used by the GP but it is open to all.

Topic: RE: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: bx737
Posted 2013-02-13 11:48:25 and read 1940 times.

Quoting EIDL (Reply 91):

Thanks again EIDL for the info

Topic: RE: Ryanair Says EI Deal Blocked By EU
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-22 07:07:39 and read 1476 times.

Quick update on this - Joaquin Almunia, the EU competition Commissioner officially stated that the decision on the merger will be announced on February 27th.
(Source: Reuters)


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