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Topic: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: iksu
Posted 2013-02-20 03:04:21 and read 14643 times.

Hi,

Yesterday Finnair and Airbus had a Global Market Forecast presentation together which is now covered in news papers in Finland. One very interesting detail was the prices for Finnair's standing orders from Airbus. Finnair is to receive 5 A321 and 11 A350-900 aircrafts. Price for the order is 1200M euros and approximately 1000M euros for the wide bodies. That comes to only a bit more than 90M per A350-900. I guess the early signing for the type gave a good discount!

One source (sorry, in Finnish only)

http://www.aamulehti.fi/Talous/11947...0-kone+kahden+vuoden+kuluttua.html

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-20 03:19:25 and read 14535 times.

50% discount (or even more) is normal for early adopters.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: teme82
Posted 2013-02-20 04:03:38 and read 14218 times.

When you look AY's fleet I think they have paid the "missing" 50% already  

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-02-20 04:20:09 and read 14049 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
50% discount (or even more) is normal for early adopters.

It should also not be forgotten that AY ordered the original A350 in March 2006 and subsequently converted their orders to XWBs. I wouldn't be surprised if that order conversion was at no cost to AY, so the figure could easily reflect their original A350 pricing rather than XWB prices.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2013-02-20 04:38:39 and read 13886 times.

Equally interesting they'll be getting A321s for 40M a pop. That's pretty good in this day and age.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: A330
Posted 2013-02-20 04:45:37 and read 13812 times.

That is without the engines...

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: vhtje
Posted 2013-02-20 04:47:06 and read 13786 times.

When are their deliveries due?

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: atcanobbio
Posted 2013-02-20 09:36:33 and read 13083 times.

good for AY for getting a great deal on those. It seems though that A is VERY desperate to take some of the market share away from the 777...good luck to them in their quest for that.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: jonathan-l
Posted 2013-02-20 10:38:47 and read 12779 times.

The Google-translated version of the article doesn't quote any source and I haven't found anything via Google that suggests that these prices were quoted by Finnair or Airbus.
Add to that the uncertainty about whether engines are included or not + escalation clauses + whether this price applies to the A350 or to the A350XWB, and the fact that neither airlines nor Airbus divulge pricing information, I give little credit to the exactitude of any figure. Only thing that is certain is that airlines pay far less than the catalogue price.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-02-20 11:31:09 and read 12530 times.

I hope that this puts to rest the widely conceived notion that Boeing was "raped" by FR on price as it is common for B and A to give large discounts  

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: okAY
Posted 2013-02-20 11:45:26 and read 12425 times.

Quoting iksu (Thread starter):
I guess the early signing for the type gave a good discount!

I'd say the discount has been given due to the delays rather than early signing.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: Aesma
Posted 2013-02-20 13:39:09 and read 10969 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 9):
I hope that this puts to rest the widely conceived notion that Boeing was "raped" by FR on price as it is common for B and A to give large discounts

The problem with FR and Boeing is not the price but the fact that FR sold the used frames for more than they paid, while Boeing lost customers who bought those.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-02-20 13:42:26 and read 10900 times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):

Thanks for the clarification - Ironically this is what is holding up the new FR order right ? Either way , good for AY and Airbus.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-02-20 15:51:31 and read 9335 times.

Quoting vhtje (Reply 6):
When are their deliveries due?

I've only read the first A350 is expected to arrive 2015, total order 11+8, the A321 Sharklets are coming 2013/2014.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-20 16:07:39 and read 9180 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 12):
Thanks for the clarification - Ironically this is what is holding up the new FR order right ?

Well, that's one thing. Furthermore, FR walked away from Boeing in December 2012 complaining about Boeing's unwillingness to agree to FR's terms. This followed a threat in Boeing's direction that FR would defer cancel orders if Boeing didn't agree to FR's terms on the 200 aircraft order. Of course, that order didn't happen - but neither did the deferrals and cancellations.

Given that history it's understandable that Boeing are looking at every line in any proposed written agreement with FR three times more than usual.

Quoting okAY (Reply 10):
I'd say the discount has been given due to the delays rather than early signing.

You're thinking of compensation payments, not discounts.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: MEA-707
Posted 2013-02-20 16:14:52 and read 9092 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 13):
I've only read the first A350 is expected to arrive 2015, total order 11+8

the fact that Finnair can't count on actually getting them in 2015 makes these A350 fairly cheap.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-02-20 16:59:41 and read 8760 times.

AY was a launch customer, if not THE launch customer for the original A-350 Mk.I, back in March 2006.

Dispite being the launch customer, AY is not taking the first A-359s produced. Their deliveries begin and MSN-030. QR gets the first airplanes produced.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-of-early-production-a350s-212994/

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2013-02-20 17:19:26 and read 8619 times.

I read somewhere US Airways paid somewhere near that as they were the US launch customer for the first version of A350 before they redesigned it.

KH

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2013-02-20 17:22:19 and read 8597 times.

That's an awesome deal. Even if its 2 years late and overweight, like the 787, I think its a great deal.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: sailas
Posted 2013-02-20 17:40:55 and read 8432 times.

will AY still keep the a340 and a330s? What new routes will be opened with the a350 or just added capacity on some routes? Im amazed at how big AYs widebody fleet is becoming. I guess SAS can feel the heat...

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: petteri
Posted 2013-02-20 17:50:09 and read 8347 times.

Well, if they received launch customer pricing and now they are receiving later versions of the aircraft, they're getting the best of both worlds! Paying the low entry cost and getting the advantage of the improvements that will come come the experience of the first batch aircraft. Not too shabby!

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: nicoeddf
Posted 2013-02-20 18:52:03 and read 7925 times.

Quoting atcanobbio (Reply 7):
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 18):

Those are the only comments you could think of?

For my part, Airbus doesnt look too desperate for markeshare.

Anyway, real deal purchase prices are good kept secrets. You wont find the real paid prices in the news and of you do get a quote you can be sure there is a lot more behind the quote than known or written.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-20 19:11:09 and read 7813 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16):
AY was a launch customer, if not THE launch customer for the original A-350 Mk.I, back in March 2006.

I think QR was the launch customer, which is why they get first deliveries of the A350XWB even though SQ was the first customer to sign for the A350XWB.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: nicoeddf
Posted 2013-02-20 20:15:53 and read 7457 times.

Quoting atcanobbio (Reply 7):
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 18):

Those are the only comments you could think of?

For my part, Airbus doesnt look too desperate for markeshare.

Anyway, real deal purchase prices are good kept secrets. You wont find the real paid prices in the news and of you do get a quote you can be sure there is a lot more behind the quote than known or written.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: teme82
Posted 2013-02-21 02:22:53 and read 5224 times.

Quoting sailas (Reply 19):
will AY still keep the a340 and a330s?

I think that the oldest A343's will leave the fleet as soon as the A359 is available. They are tech every now and then. So sooner AY to get rid of them sooner the better.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: vhtje
Posted 2013-02-21 03:00:59 and read 5108 times.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 13):
I've only read the first A350 is expected to arrive 2015, total order 11+8, the A321 Sharklets are coming 2013/2014.

Super, thanks. Can't wait to fly in them!

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: atcanobbio
Posted 2013-02-21 16:10:43 and read 4653 times.

Quoting nicoeddf (Reply 23):

i'm not trying to start an A vs B war and in no way i prefer B over A or viceversa. But you have to look at what the A350 is planned to go against...the 787/777. The 777, especially the 77W has pretty much KILLED the A340. I'm not hating on the A340...it's a good aircraft, and I, as passenger, LOVE it over the 777. However, when it comes to the economics, airbus doesn't have anything as good as the 77W, hence the A350.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: nicoeddf
Posted 2013-02-22 04:09:14 and read 4394 times.

Quoting atcanobbio (Reply 26):
But you have to look at what the A350 is planned to go against...the 787/777.

Yeah, especially the 787 seems to be a serious threat at the moment...   Okay, jokes aside - I don't see any reason why the 330/350 combo won't do really good (as in 50:50) vs. the 787/777 line up. Both combos are pretty good indeed and even more, seems a lot of airlines are going for the 787/350 combo.

Quoting atcanobbio (Reply 26):
The 777, especially the 77W has pretty much KILLED the A340.

True but what has that to do in any conceivable way with the 350?

Quoting atcanobbio (Reply 26):
However, when it comes to the economics, airbus doesn't have anything as good as the 77W, hence the A350.

Yeah, and it seems the 350 is quite a bit better, hence the 777X project. So, back to the argument: Where does Airbus need to buy marketshare?

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: atcanobbio
Posted 2013-02-22 09:05:28 and read 4014 times.

Quoting nicoeddf (Reply 27):
Yeah, especially the 787 seems to be a serious threat at the moment... Okay, jokes aside - I don't see any reason why the 330/350 combo won't do really good (as in 50:50) vs. the 787/777 line up. Both combos are pretty good indeed and even more, seems a lot of airlines are going for the 787/350 combo.

hahaha   ...yeah i agree, the 787 is a mess at the moment, but once the kinks are all taken care of, it's going to be a customer pleaser.

Quoting nicoeddf (Reply 27):
True but what has that to do in any conceivable way with the 350?

the A350-900/1000 is kind of geared towards competing against the 777-200ER/300ER...when you look at the numbers, MANY more airlines fly the 777 than then 340, thus 777 has major market share in that seat-range. the A350 will definitely have better economics than the 777.

Quoting nicoeddf (Reply 27):
Yeah, and it seems the 350 is quite a bit better, hence the 777X project. So, back to the argument: Where does Airbus need to buy marketshare?

i agree, the 350 will be better than the current 777, and since the 777 owns the marketshare, the 350's goal is to get some of that share. As far as the 777X, not really sure how that will go against the 350 since I've been reading here in a/net that the 777X will be stretched versions of their current models, thus making it bigger than the 350...so who knows.

eine Frage, woher kommst du?

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: okAY
Posted 2013-02-22 09:38:54 and read 3918 times.

Quoting atcanobbio (Reply 26):

Wasn't A340 offered quite long before 777? When it was still required to have 4 engines for ocean crossings? I have heard the same that triple-7 killed the A340, though still there are airlines that did go for it. I would say A330 is more comparable with 777, though. All of the mentioned start to be old technique. 787 has so far been a disaster, let's see how A350 does once it comes out of the production line.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: atcanobbio
Posted 2013-02-22 10:22:34 and read 3793 times.

Quoting okAY (Reply 29):

i guess saying A340 and 777 is kind of vague. I'm pretty much focusing on the A346 and the the 77W...they both were delivered within 2 years of each other.

and yes, as far as manufacturing, the 787 has been a disaster. However, perfomance-wise, it's been stellar. too bad it's not allowed to fly too much.  Smile

[Edited 2013-02-22 10:25:02]

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: olle
Posted 2013-02-22 10:57:40 and read 3711 times.

While it was competing against 787 pricing at the time I remember that the 787 price level was close 60% in the beginning compared to today.

Probebly they needed to put the price in this level to get the order... And remember that the original 350 did not compete as much against 777 as the XWB we see today.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: okAY
Posted 2013-02-22 11:02:32 and read 3711 times.

Quoting olle (Reply 31):

Probebly they needed to put the price in this level to get the order...

If you are talking about AY, I think they would have stick with A even with a higher price tag. The benefits they get from having an all airbus fleet is worth gold, I heard inside the company.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-23 03:48:19 and read 3194 times.

Quoting atcanobbio (Reply 30):
However, perfomance-wise, it's been stellar.

Reliability was quite an issue as far as I read - they did reach impressive dispatch reliability figures, but at the cost of an effort from Boeing that will not be sustainable. That included stand-by aircraft and a larger-than-usual stock of spare parts being held ready for most flights.

a.net somehow won't let me link to the WSJ source for this (the author of that source being Jon Ostrower), but if you search for "How Airlines Kept 787s on Schedule", you should find it easily. Subscription may be required.

Topic: RE: Finnair Pays 90M Eur For A350-900
Username: teme82
Posted 2013-02-24 07:42:58 and read 2660 times.

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 32):

If you are talking about AY, I think they would have stick with A even with a higher price tag. The benefits they get from having an all airbus fleet is worth gold, I heard inside the company.

If I'm not mistaken the fleet commonality helps pilots to move from A320 to A330/340 and vice versa. So the cost in training for A350 should be lower that if they would ordered the fireliner.

But anyway I've started to ponder should I ask how much one A350 will cost for AY in the next annual general meeting...


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