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Topic: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: ckfred
Posted 2013-02-26 10:21:07 and read 6729 times.

With the merger of AA and US, it appears that either AA or UA has to move at ATL. AA and UA were on Concourse T before their respective mergers (AA 9-12 and UA 13-15). CO was on D, along with US.

Since the UA/CO merger, UA has a split operation. Flights to PMUA hubs depart out of T. Flights to PMCO hubs depart out of D.

I think that US and UA each has 3 gates on D.

So, who winds up moving? It's been a while since I've been to ATL, but it seemed that AA was was running a very full operation out of its gates. Trying to run a full AA/US operation out of 6 gates on D might be problematic, if the weather starts to throw flights off schedule.

Obviously, no one wants to leave T. It's a pain to go through the main security checkpoint and ride the train to D. And Delta isn't about to give up gates on T and let it's two legacy rivals have the close gates.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: davescj
Posted 2013-02-26 10:42:34 and read 6629 times.

AA has a decent number of gates at ATL. They do a mix of AA and AE. I think it will come down to usage. I don't thinke US has much of an operation. Since the AAdmiral Lounge is at T-10, I suspect they would prefer to keep the gates in T and keep the Lounge where is is.

Dave

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2013-02-26 11:09:51 and read 6531 times.

The other hangup in any potential move is AA's dedicated baggage claim. Sadly, I think UA is going to end up back in D when it's all said and done. Too bad the airport authority can't muscle DL out of 3 gates on T, considering they own the rest of the airport...

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: davescj
Posted 2013-02-26 11:16:58 and read 6495 times.

I doubt DL is willing to give up anything in ATL. They want it all......I think when the Soutwest and Airtran merger goes through a couple gates could open up. Maybe the "new" United will move there? And AA could take over the gates in T that UA currently has.

Dave

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: ckfred
Posted 2013-02-26 11:36:04 and read 6399 times.

Quoting davescj (Reply 3):
And AA could take over the gates in T that UA currently has.

The irony is that when AA moved from D to T, shortly after Concourse E opened before the 1996 Summer Olympics, it had gates 9 through 14. At some point, HP had a gate or two on the end. Then, United moved in, replacing HP on the concourse, and added another jet bridge to create gate 15.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):
The other hangup in any potential move is AA's dedicated baggage claim.

I would assume that whichever carrier gets the north end of T gets the dedicated baggage claim.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2013-02-26 11:56:34 and read 6320 times.

Quoting davescj (Reply 3):

I can't see WN giving up any gates at the moment. If enough FL routes are dropped and not replaced with WN service, maybe. I foresee UA and US basically swapping gates at T and D, though I agree that, if the flights are timed well, US/AA might be fine with AA's existing 3-gate operation.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 4):

AA will probably fight tooth and nail to keep its baggage claim and T gate operation.

Quoting davescj (Reply 1):

US has about 18 flights per day out of ATL, and has 3 gates in D.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-02-26 12:03:06 and read 6287 times.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):
Too bad the airport authority can't muscle DL out of 3 gates on T, considering they own the rest of the airport...

Why don't they give UA gates in D? Why should UA get T? DL does practically own the airport which is why I think ATL would be nicer to DL. In the end, I don't think anyone is going to get muscled by the airport, either UA will keep T and a split operation or DL will give them D gates and let them be in one place... I highly highly doubt DL would give up T gates

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: CODC10
Posted 2013-02-26 12:12:09 and read 6246 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
Why don't they give UA gates in D? Why should UA get T? DL does practically own the airport which is why I think ATL would be nicer to DL. In the end, I don't think anyone is going to get muscled by the airport, either UA will keep T and a split operation or DL will give them D gates and let them be in one place... I highly highly doubt DL would give up T gates

I think the issue is whether AA gives up its gates and lounge on T and moves to D while UA(CO) gives up its gates and lounge on D and moves to T, or AA(US) gives up its gates on D and moves to T while UA gives up its gates on T and moves to D.

I too doubt DL would need to relinquish T gates, but it is a bit of an oddball operation given how much contiguous real estate Delta has elsewhere in the terminal.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: NorthStarDC4M
Posted 2013-02-26 12:30:50 and read 6152 times.

I don't think UA or AA will move out of T... UA has managed a split op just fine so far, and truth be told it's not a connection point for UA or AA so the split operation is of minimal passenger impact. Now IF US and AA can find some way of shoehorning themselves into the existing 4 T gates for AA they might do that and give up D, but I doubt it, UA certainly can't get all their flights out of 3 gates on T.
I think AA might be able to shoehorn in one more RJ sized stand on T?

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-02-26 12:33:09 and read 6141 times.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 7):
but it is a bit of an oddball operation given how much contiguous real estate Delta has elsewhere in the terminal.

They are very convenient gates and, IIRC, a lot of business flights go out of T. Plus, part of it is undoubtedly trying to prevent competitors from having something better and convenient for them. And one more thing, D is IMO the worst concourse there, very narrow and still seems rundown (even after the remodeling) so that probably fuels the decision.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: DualQual
Posted 2013-02-26 12:41:21 and read 6093 times.

You all are waaayyyyy overthinking this. UA will go to whatever gates cost the least. That will likely be D. UA seems to be all about cost these days.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2013-02-26 12:45:42 and read 6061 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
Plus, part of it is undoubtedly trying to prevent competitors from having something better and convenient for them.

Given the absurdly huge presence of DL in ATL, I highly doubt moving out of T would have any impact whatsoever on their business travel. I don't expect DL to give up anything, or AA, or UA. Something's going to give though, it's ridiculous that AA and UA would continue to have split operations.

The end result will involve money changing hands. It's anyone's guess who is willing to pay more for those gates though, given UA/CO's cheap nature post-merger and the incoming US management team's history of penny pinching.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-02-26 12:50:57 and read 6035 times.

Also, DL's T gates are capable of handling widebodies, and can be used when needed for departing international flights when there is no space available at Concourse E or F.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: JONC777
Posted 2013-02-26 12:56:02 and read 5997 times.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 5):
I can't see WN giving up any gates at the moment. If enough FL routes are dropped and not replaced with WN service, maybe. I foresee UA and US basically swapping gates at T and D, though I agree that, if the flights are timed well, US/AA might be fine with AA's existing 3-gate operation.

Leases for wn's atl gates come up in 2014 and theres a high chance wn will simply be in the 1/2 of of the c gates. Lots of time between now and then .. . but thats what the rumor mill is saying these days.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-02-26 12:59:27 and read 5986 times.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):
Too bad the airport authority can't muscle DL out of 3 gates on T, considering they own the rest of the airport...

Or better yet, Delta gives up gates in D and take over all of T....simple

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: ScottB
Posted 2013-02-26 13:45:46 and read 5879 times.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 8):
UA has managed a split op just fine so far, and truth be told it's not a connection point for UA or AA so the split operation is of minimal passenger impact.

There is some impact in that the United Club is the former CO Presidents Club on the D concourse, so the club ends up being of little use to anyone headed to the pmUA hubs. Similarly, the Admirals Club on T won't be conveniently located to the US gates on D.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 7):
I too doubt DL would need to relinquish T gates, but it is a bit of an oddball operation given how much contiguous real estate Delta has elsewhere in the terminal.

The T gates held by DL are valuable for their location as well as their ability to handle widebodies. It's no more odd than DL's gates on D.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2013-02-26 14:12:44 and read 5820 times.

Quoting DualQual (Reply 10):

I don't know if any of you remember BUT UA was already on the D concourse before Delta closed the Dallas Hub and moved Hundreds of flights to ATL. It would make PERFECT sense for United to move back to 'D' to be alongside of the CO gates and for USAIR to move to T to be with American. BUT !! that all depends on the Airport And The 800 lb Gorrilla at ATL, DELTA. Y'think??

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-02-26 14:17:16 and read 5807 times.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 11):
Given the absurdly huge presence of DL in ATL, I highly doubt moving out of T would have any impact whatsoever on their business travel.

...which means DL should give T gates to UA? Why would they do that? What's in it for DL? To be nice?

What's in it for the airport? To piss off DL? Make UA's small operation better and to interfere with the normal gate exchanges carriers have made in the past? Why don't they force consolidate WN's operation while they're at it.

This same ATL that wouldn't just "muscle a few gates" out of DL and incentivize WN to start service, pre-merger

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 14):
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):
Too bad the airport authority can't muscle DL out of 3 gates on T, considering they own the rest of the airport...

Or better yet, Delta gives up gates in D and take over all of T....simple

Yeah, for real, makes just as much sense one way or the other. Of course, DL would prefer the T gates and UA would also prefer the T gates, aka conflict and the reason why no exchange has happened. Simple.

DL and ATL have a healthy relationship, understandably. I doubt ATL is gonna do something nice for UA and (even remotely) bad for DL just to make United smile a bit and to calm some people's OCD. UA pax travelling from D to T is no where near as bad (or in the same volumes) as DL pax going from T to C to F to B etc

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-02-26 14:28:02 and read 5748 times.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):

United will be consolidating on T. That's already written in the new gating contract.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: jmc1975
Posted 2013-02-26 14:33:43 and read 5733 times.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 5):
though I agree that, if the flights are timed well, US/AA might be fine with AA's existing 3-gate operation.

What?!?!?!?!? So, are you making the assumption that delays and irregular operations will NEVER happen? Are you assuming the combined airline will be spreading out their schedule evenly over a 24-hour day? From ATL, the combined airline will have fifty (50) daily flights to DFW, CLT, MIA, PHL, LGA, ORD & PHX.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 7):
I think the issue is whether AA gives up its gates and lounge on T and moves to D while UA(CO) gives up its gates and lounge on D and moves to T, or AA(US) gives up its gates on D and moves to T while UA gives up its gates on T and moves to D.

Would it not be more cost-effective for both carriers to swap gates and consolidate their operations and resources rather than to change the locations of their lounges and front the costs of renovation among other expenditures that come with it? With the given sceanrio, AA/US consolidating at T, while UA/CO consolidating in D seem to be a no-brainer.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 8):
UA has managed a split op just fine so far, and truth be told it's not a connection point for UA or AA so the split operation is of minimal passenger impact.

Keep in mind that "just fine so far" is by no means a successful long-term strategy. It will ultimately be of utmost importance to have an operation where each carrier can optimize their own efficiencies.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2013-02-26 15:16:56 and read 5601 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
...which means DL should give T gates to UA? Why would they do that? What's in it for DL? To be nice?

Nothing's in it for DL. Just like nothing's in it for UA or AA to give up their gates. But somebody is going to have to.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 18):
United will be consolidating on T. That's already written in the new gating contract.

Do you have more details? Seems this might answer the original thread question, unless UA is somehow consolidating all flights into 3 gates (considering all of their flights are RJs these days, might be possible...)

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-02-26 15:31:05 and read 5548 times.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 20):
Nothing's in it for DL. Just like nothing's in it for UA or AA to give up their gates. But somebody is going to have to.

They do? Who says they do? Split operations are not impossible, and if both sides can't agree to something, the status quo will stay

Though I think our debate may be moot, I would also like to see what FlyASAGuy2005 says

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: AADC10
Posted 2013-02-26 15:51:29 and read 5498 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 15):
There is some impact in that the United Club is the former CO Presidents Club on the D concourse, so the club ends up being of little use to anyone headed to the pmUA hubs.

UA used to have a small Red Carpet Club in T that closed several years ago. The last time I went by, the space was still empty, so if that is still the case, UA could consolidate in T and reopen the old RCC space as a United Club, although it might be too small.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-02-26 16:07:36 and read 5444 times.

Quoting davescj (Reply 1):
I don't thinke US has much of an operation.

Actually, you'd be surprised. US is fairly busy out of Atlanta and usually have 5 or 6 a/c that RON that require them to park on E.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 19):
From ATL, the combined airline will have fifty (50) daily flights to DFW, CLT, MIA, PHL, LGA, ORD & PHX.
DL manages about the same level of flights out of RDU with 4 gates however Terminal 2 is CUTE. BUT, they use the same gates every day.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 20):
Do you have more details? Seems this might answer the original thread question, unless UA is somehow consolidating all flights into 3 gates (considering all of their flights are RJs these days, might be possible...)

There's a project that was already approved to add 2 (smaller) gates to T North at which time United will surrender their 3 gates on D south. Those gates will become city gates.

[Edited 2013-02-26 16:13:11]

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: United1
Posted 2013-02-26 16:18:01 and read 5404 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 23):
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 20):
Do you have more details? Seems this might answer the original thread question, unless UA is somehow consolidating all flights into 3 gates (considering all of their flights are RJs these days, might be possible...)

There's a project that was already approved to add 2 (smaller) gates to T North at which time United will surrender their 3 gates on D south. Those gates will become city gates.

Makes sense as most of UAs flights out of ATL are on RJs at this point....any word if they plan on reopening the United Club on T?

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-02-26 16:47:10 and read 5598 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 24):
Makes sense as most of UAs flights out of ATL are on RJs at this point....any word if they plan on reopening the United Club on T?

They would be at a competitive disadvantage if they didn't. (i'm only assuming they will I haven't see something on paper that said they would or wouldn't) Other posters mentioned that the old lounge was small but there's nothing precluding them from expanding the area. Happens all the time. Look at the new SkyClub on D or the one opened in 2010 on C. Both required extensive build outs.

IDK how or exactly where the two gates will be added. I'm guessing they will realign T north to space the gates differently and add the 2 gates in. As it is right now, you can't just slap 2 gates on one end or the other. There's no room. Some are currently spaced for widebodies so that's probably were they're getting the room to add RJ gates. As it's been shown on C and D, you can run 2 CR7s/9s in the space of one narrowbody gate so it shouldn't be too hard on T where there's more room. Delta runs mainline a/c up to 738s (soon to be 739s) and 320s off C30, C47, C48, and C51. C47 and 51 are the only dedicated mainline gates. The rest get shuffled around so when there's say a 737 at C30, C32 is closed off and same for 48 and 50. When there's no mainline, C30 parks up to a 700 and 32 up to a 900. Same for C48 and 50. C49 was permanently shut down but because of the horse-shoe shape of C north, C53 managed to stay operational with 320s and 737s on 51.

Now, for those that still have this fantasy that there will be a gate swap between WN and DL on C and D. It's not happening. At least not within the next 5 years. DL is goign through yet ANOTHER gate realignment on C to allow for more mainline departures wich is set to begin in the spring. The eventual plan is to have one line on each gate for RJs and mainline rather than having to shut down the adjacent gate. When the shifting and removal of gates is complete, every stand will be able to park anything from a CR2 to 739 which makes the operation much more easier to manage. D will remain as is for now. The idea seems to be that most of the 200s will be gated over there with the large RJs and narrowbodies coming to C. The exception being Canadian flights which don't touch C anymore. Most to all are off of D and sometimes E.

One more thing. The prospects of Delta vacating T? Even slimmer than a C/D gate swap. There are currently 7 (not 8) gates on T south. T6 was completely removed in 2010 to accomodate T7s and 744s further down on T3 and T2; also making T5 and T7 CATIII gates. They are putting a gate back where T6 was in the coming weeks/months. On the passenger side of the terminal it's currently being used as a help dek but that will got back to being a gate house.

[Edited 2013-02-26 17:10:13]

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2013-02-26 17:30:09 and read 5488 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 25):
They would be at a competitive disadvantage if they didn't.

It's interesting to me that with all the consolidation, we are at a point now where almost every major airport (not just hubs or focus cities) could quite possibly support a club for all three of the major airlines. 50 AA flights at a competitor's main hub is a perfect example of this.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2013-02-26 18:52:37 and read 5311 times.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 19):
What?!?!?!?!? So, are you making the assumption that delays and irregular operations will NEVER happen? Are you assuming the combined airline will be spreading out their schedule evenly over a 24-hour day? From ATL, the combined airline will have fifty (50) daily flights to DFW, CLT, MIA, PHL, LGA, ORD & PHX.

I said might. I actually had some doubt about that when posting the reply, and did not think about potential for delays. I also did not know what the scope of the combined carrier would be. If it is indeed 50 daily flights, then I agree that 3 gates is not nearly enough, and even 6 gates (assuming AA/US retains all of US's gates also) is not looking like enough (assuming that no flights are cut).

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 25):
As it's been shown on C and D, you can run 2 CR7s/9s in the space of one narrowbody gate so it shouldn't be too hard on T where there's more room.

I assume you can only run one E175 in the space of one narrowbody gate? What about one E175 and one CR7/9. Just wondering if the E175s will be forced to use one of the existing gates, or if they could use the new gates.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-02-26 19:06:25 and read 5281 times.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 27):
I assume you can only run one E175 in the space of one narrowbody gate? What about one E175 and one CR7/9. Just wondering if the E175s will be forced to use one of the existing gates, or if they could use the new gates.

All the 900 gates are striped for 170s although not one has ever been parked over there as far as I know. Those would be C32, C33, C38, C39 C44, C45, C50, and C51.

This practice of running mainline on C is fairly new. I guess the way I should have worded it was, you can run one narrowbody in the place of two RJ gates. All the gates were set up on C for RJs OPD. When this experiment first started in 2010, they had to stripe an "alpha" line for the narrowbody so where traditionally C30 and C32 is (there are two physical jetways) the lines are for up to 700s on C30 and up to 900s on C32. About 5 feet to the left of the RJ line on C30 is where the narrowbody lead-in line is thus causing C32 to be closed if there's Delta mainline in the gate.

These are all RJ jetways specially designed for them. There's a little cut-away on the "lip" of the jetbridge where it mates with the body of the a/c. The CRJ stairway fits in this cutway when the hand rails are let down. This way, there's no need for the catwalk that you normally see on jetbridges when there's hooked up to an RJ.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: vgnatl747
Posted 2013-02-27 06:53:44 and read 3582 times.

Quoting United1 (Reply 24):
Makes sense as most of UAs flights out of ATL are on RJs at this point....any word if they plan on reopening the United Club on T?

I asked this very question in ATL yesterday. It sounded like UA's intent is to move all operations to T and open a United Club in T. While that remains to be seen, I hope that's the case. T is quite a bit more convenient than D, although D looks like it will be a lot nicer when they finish the remodeling. Something has to give, because the current model of the only United Club being in D sucks.

Topic: RE: UA/CO And AA/US At ATL
Username: davescj
Posted 2013-02-27 06:55:30 and read 3562 times.

Quoting vgnatl747 (Reply 29):
Something has to give, because the current model of the only United Club being in D sucks.

I suspect pmUA it was more than enough space. Remember, CO was not in star long before the merger. While CO was in ST, members could have gone to Crown Room Lounge (what is now the SC).

Dave


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