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Topic: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: rikkus67
Posted 2013-02-22 10:06:50 and read 25039 times.

This is one important aircraft that needs to be preserved. Air Canada's C-GAUN 767-200, more famously know as the "Gimli Glider" is being auctioned off soon. The feat the pilots pulled off to get this fuel-starved aircraft safely back on the ground, with no injuries or loss of life is truly amazing, and needs to be celebrated no less than US Airways "Hudson" A320.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bre...llion-192442941.html?device=mobile

This is one aircraft that does NOT deserve the pop can treatment!

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: skysurfer
Posted 2013-02-22 10:27:24 and read 24941 times.

Amazing that the pilots got it down safely and that it was able to fly again for many years. I will bid $1 so my soon to be newborn can enjoy it along with myself!
All jokes aside, i hope it is preserved as it's quite a piece of aviation history.

Cheers

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2013-02-22 10:32:02 and read 24881 times.

I hope whoever buys it presevers it and does not scrap it. Anyone know how many cycles and hours she currently has??

KH

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-02-22 10:32:53 and read 24859 times.

Hard to believe the incident happened almost 30 years ago. That is one old 767.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: sk736
Posted 2013-02-22 10:36:13 and read 24826 times.

I see absolutely no reason why the airframe should be preserved. It's just one of many aircraft that, over the years, have been involved in serious incidents.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2013-02-22 10:37:02 and read 24822 times.

Just why should it be preserved?

It's a run of the mill B762 which happened to survive a forced landing which was caused by human error.

There is nothing "special" in the sense of it being ground breaking, technologically pioneering or symbolic of a new era in air travel, so I question how the expense of preserving it can be justified.

Rgds

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2013-02-22 10:42:32 and read 24748 times.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 5):
Just why should it be preserved?

She should be preserved because she is famous and made history. It is not too often you can own a piece of history. Just my .02.

KH

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: rampbro
Posted 2013-02-22 10:43:20 and read 24750 times.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 5):
Just why should it be preserved?

Lol, nothing to see here, just a 767 that made a crazy dead-stick landing on an converted military airport that the co-pilot remembered from his Air Force days and they were lucky enough be in range of. Never mind that the nosewheel collapsed and the aircraft skidded to a stop atop a stanchion running down the middle of the piste. Or the most innocuous detail, that the Gimli Glider actually flew away from that field (after repairs).

Nope nothing special about this one.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: C172Akula
Posted 2013-02-22 10:47:52 and read 24708 times.

The remarks from the executive director of the Western Canada Aviation Museum are completely idiotic:

"It's too much on what people fly today," Render said.

"Our focus is on the old planes which people don't know too much about... it would be lovely but it wouldn't be on our dream list."

Your aviation museum wouldn't want a incredibly cool piece of Canadian aviation history? Just do us all a favour and quit your job now...

[Edited 2013-02-22 10:49:19]

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-02-22 10:52:50 and read 24647 times.

Aviation history, hopefully, will remember what happened that day with that aircraft. Beyond that, I don't see why it should be preserved. It's just an airliner that was involved in an incident. It's more the pilots that should not be forgotten. Otherwise we should also preserve the TS A330 that ran out of fuel over the Atlantic.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-22 11:00:06 and read 24586 times.

Quoting sk736 (Reply 4):
I see absolutely no reason why the airframe should be preserved. It's just one of many aircraft that, over the years, have been involved in serious incidents.
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 5):
Just why should it be preserved?

It's a run of the mill B762 which happened to survive a forced landing which was caused by human error.

There is nothing "special" in the sense of it being ground breaking, technologically pioneering or symbolic of a new era in air travel, so I question how the expense of preserving it can be justified.

Have you no sense of history? I'm sure that there are airframes that have been preserved, in museums all over the world, that are much more obscure than this one.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: pnwtraveler
Posted 2013-02-22 11:12:59 and read 24487 times.

So a few people want to see the Gimli Glider. Open up your cheque (or check) books and write a sizeable donation. Both for the purchase, transport, storage regime, refurbishment to display state, and then 20 to 30 years of upkeep, share of the overhead such as rent, light etc. and then ongoing maintenance of the display. When you add all that up in cost, is it really worth that? Do a storyboard, a video that plays on a loop, even cut the nose and cockpit off and put it in the Museum and you have the memory of the event at a fraction of the cost.

Unless you work day in and day out trying to get people to help pay for all these great ideas, or nostalgic ideas, you don't have a clue how hard it is to get people to part with their cash. Particularly for museums and displays that don't involve puppies with big eyes and needy children. Those you can rely on people's sympathy and to an extent their guilt. Museums are more cerebral and you have to work much harder.

So here is the challenge to all. Before you say someone "should" do something get your wallet ready and promise a large chunk of cash. Better yet issue a challenge to everyone you know or think would help, and raise the money yourself. Say $2 to $3 Million to cover the cost of the lifetime of the aircraft display. Then you have a right and the motivation for a museum to take on the challenge.

Or even better buy it yourselves, park it outside the museum and open up a Tim Hortons with the aircraft as seating.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: rampbro
Posted 2013-02-22 11:14:06 and read 24462 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 9):
Otherwise we should also preserve the TS A330 that ran out of fuel over the Atlantic.

Not a bad idea to put her somewhere nice, once her career as a tour-bus is over. Infield at YUL comes to mind. Given the hero status Piche and that flight hold at TS, it would not surprise me at all.

There's enough old junk to turn into pop tins. These aircraft are a testament to the fragility of flight and the human condition, and imperfection of human planning and thinking, but also to the force of will and power of intellect of the pilots and those who designed and built the aircraft.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: SDF880
Posted 2013-02-22 13:18:48 and read 23947 times.

I'm an aircraft dispatcher and I usually have the Gimli Glider picture as my computer wallpaper. A nice constant reminder for me not to mess up my fuel calculations.

SDF880

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2013-02-22 13:29:29 and read 23870 times.

How would AC feel about this aircraft in a museum? Seems like they would rather forget that incident ever happened.

Also have the TACA glider, N697SW which does not have too many more years left.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: virgin747
Posted 2013-02-22 13:51:42 and read 23719 times.

There was a bit of discussion on the WFP site about this which is oddly powered by demand media.... Otherwise i'll just post my two cents here also.

Shirley Renders says the 767 is not really a great fit into the collection because its still to new, meanwhile theres the spirit of Delta (B767-200) on display and the definitely newer A320 from the Hudson landing. What the article doesnt say is the Muesum is looking to build a new place where the old Winnipeg International is. My opinion is that this 767 would be a great center piece at this Muesum. And just on the side, someone should ask Shirley about the CF-100 sitting outside covered in snow, thats a real shame...

Theres also talk about Air Canada donating it. Air Canada seems to be a company that celebrates itself. The evidence is that there was DC-9s they donated to various technical colleges around the country, the one in Thunder Bay repainted to its original colors. CF-TCC their 3rd airplane in the fleet sits inside the Western Canada Aviation Muesum during the Winter and flies around during the summer raising funds for Dreams Take Flight. Theres other Air Canada planes sitting at Muesums across the country.

Gimli would also be a nice place to see this plane land. But ulitimately it comes to who would be willing to open their pocket book to get it there.

As for the people who think it should be scrap metal, I guess we should also scrap the countless 747s on display and the Concordes.... This 767 has its place in history just like any of those other planes... And the Concorde and the 767 are only 6 years apart.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-22 13:51:57 and read 23718 times.

I thought it was scrapped, wow, I wonder how much they might get for it. Being damaged goods, I imagine a discount would be in order.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-02-22 13:55:38 and read 23696 times.

Excuse me, how many B767-200s are preserved? None? If we're going to preserve one, this one has a great story. Is there a more interesting one? Unlikely.
For all those moaning it's just tun of the mill, you're right and will continue to be right until the last one is scrapped.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-02-22 13:59:47 and read 23675 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 17):
Excuse me, how many B767-200s are preserved? None?

An answer to your question.

Quoting virgin747 (Reply 15):
meanwhile theres the spirit of Delta (B767-200)

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2013-02-22 14:02:49 and read 23636 times.

Skipness, try The Spirit of Delta for one:

http://deltamuseum.org/M_Aircraft_B-767.htm

Rgds

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-22 14:05:47 and read 23624 times.

From Winnipeg Free Press article:

Quote:

Shirley Render, the museum's executive director, said while the plane landed in Gimli with empty fuel tanks almost 30 years ago, it is still too new for their collection.

"It's too much on what people fly today," Render said.

"Our focus is on the old planes which people don't know too much about... it would be lovely but it wouldn't be on our dream list."

Too new? This is a significant piece of Manitoba aviation history, and April 14 will be the one and only chance to get it. In 10 to 15 years, it might not be considered too new anymore, but if you haven't got it, you haven't got it.

With such an attitude towards this incredible opportunity, Ms. Render should consider stepping down.


Because this airplane is so well-known, I doubt serious bidders for this specific plane will be bidding for scrap. It will be interesting to see where this ends up, but it really should be WCAM in Winnpeg, or Gimli, Manitoba. But obviously any museum is better than GAUN being gone.




✈ LD4 ✈

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: virgin747
Posted 2013-02-22 14:08:07 and read 23596 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 16):
I thought it was scrapped, wow, I wonder how much they might get for it. Being damaged goods, I imagine a discount would be in order.

I dont know if theres any AC people on the forum here that can confirm this, but I heard theres like tell tale signs of what happened that day still on the airplane.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: NASBWI
Posted 2013-02-22 14:24:10 and read 23412 times.

Quoting virgin747 (Reply 15):
meanwhile theres the spirit of Delta (B767-200)

True, but the Spirit of Delta was preserved not because of the type, but because of its symbolism...It was an aircraft purchased by the employees in a sign of their faith in Delta's management.

Quoting virgin747 (Reply 15):
and the definitely newer A320 from the Hudson landing

US 1549 was historic for a few reasons: it's extremely rare for a jet to encounter a flock of birds and lose not one, but both engines in the incident. The fact that this happened - at such a phase of flight, and over an extremely populated area - with no loss of life, or too many major injuries, made it sensational, and it also highlighted the skill of the pilots as well as the endurance of the aircraft. Remember, it was still largely in one piece even after impact (and yes, I'm aware that that was possible in part to the fact that it was a calm day on the Hudson). In any event, this incident happened through no fault of the airline or its crew. Being able to 'beat the odds' that were thrown at one by nature tends to gain a lot more attention than simply excellent piloting.

After all, deadstick landings happen - and have happened - quite often. The big (pardon the pun) difference between the Gimli Glider and other aircraft was that C-GAUN was much larger. While the pilots in question handled the emergency excellently, fault was found with the airline by Transport Canada, and (as someone else mentioned) AC probably doesn't want to draw too much attention to that.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: AADC10
Posted 2013-02-22 14:24:12 and read 23413 times.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 20):
Because this airplane is so well-known, I doubt serious bidders for this specific plane will be bidding for scrap. It will be interesting to see where this ends up, but it really should be WCAM in Winnpeg, or Gimli, Manitoba. But obviously any museum is better than GAUN being gone.

The danger is that it might be purchased for parts. Old aircraft do not have much value as scrap but since there are still a few 762s still operating that need parts. AA and UA are still flying them and UA's may fly a little longer than expected due to the 787 snafu.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-22 14:46:29 and read 22946 times.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 23):
The danger is that it might be purchased for parts. Old aircraft do not have much value as scrap but since there are still a few 762s still operating that need parts.

That is also the way a museum can offset the intial purchase costs - sell off engines, actuators etc. parts that will never be required once the airplane is on display. With the engines and other mechanical parts having been changed several times throughout the life of the airplane, there is no specific historical significance, but in running/rebuildable condition they are far more valuable in dollars than the fuselage (which is the historically-valuable part of C-GAUN). I see no problem with this approach.

Also consider the number of 767-200s being scrapped and available for part-out anyway... there should be no shortage of parts. There are always airplanes being auctioned. The auction for this one made the news for a reason.



✈ LD4 ✈

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-02-22 14:52:39 and read 23388 times.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 20):
Because this airplane is so well-known, I doubt serious bidders for this specific plane will be bidding for scrap. It will be interesting to see where this ends up, but it really should be WCAM in Winnpeg, or Gimli, Manitoba. But obviously any museum is better than GAUN being gone.

Is it really though? How many people outside of aviation enthusiast remember this incident, and know that the airplane was repaired and still flying?

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 22):
US 1549 was historic for a few reasons: it's extremely rare for a jet to encounter a flock of birds and lose not one, but both engines in the incident.

It is not just that, the US1549 has one more thing going for it: it is visually interesting to look at because it is still banged up from the water landing. People are attracted to carnage (that is why people rubberneck when there are traffic accidents...). The US1549 plane is still mangled. If the TWA 800 or PA 103 reconstructions were in museums they would be huge draws. A 767s that currently looks like all other 767s that happened to run out of fuel and scrapped it's nose some 30 years ago? That is not something that brings people in. It needs a good visual hook.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-22 14:56:35 and read 23444 times.

Quoting virgin747 (Reply 21):
I dont know if theres any AC people on the forum here that can confirm this, but I heard theres like tell tale signs of what happened that day still on the airplane.

I have flown it a few times, and no there is nothing unusual about that aircraft. The only thing that made it stick out, is that it was one of the few AC B767s in the fleet that was totally domestic. Light weights, no slide/rafts, no HF, etc etc etc. Back in the day, it was purchased to replace the domestic DC-8-61s.

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 22):
While the pilots in question handled the emergency excellently, fault was found with the airline by Transport Canada, and (as someone else mentioned) AC probably doesn't want to draw too much attention to that.

That accident was a classic Reason Swiss Cheese occurrence, and is often used in crew training as an example. Many new SOPs at AC were developed as a result of that accident, and when new hire F/Os moan "why do we do this", I remind them of that accident ... and if it can happen, it may well happen.

When it was retired from the fleet, virtually timed out, and needing a D check, AC allowed a commemorative fly by at YUL, and rounded up the original crew. I get the feeling its not that AC wants to forget it, just that they know they cant forget it, as that is what makes AC safer today.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2013-02-22 15:02:38 and read 23684 times.

Quote:
"It's too much on what people fly today," Render said.
 

English anybody?

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-02-22 15:08:10 and read 23506 times.

What a shame there's such negativity on here. So there's one B767-200 preserved on the planet, yet so many enthusiasts are looking for reasons not to preserve a second. I don't get these boards some days. I swear people just argue to be contrary  

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: NASBWI
Posted 2013-02-22 15:20:52 and read 23191 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 28):
What a shame there's such negativity on here. So there's one B767-200 preserved on the planet, yet so many enthusiasts are looking for reasons not to preserve a second.

I wouldn't get too emotional about it just yet, skipness. After all, for that one 762 that's preserved, a great many others are still flying - in passenger use, no less (UA even has some relatively new ones). So the odds of them not gracing our skies anymore is minimal - at least for the time-being. If it was the last airworthy DC-8, however, I'd probably be more in your corner   .

The argument being posed is whether or not this particular example should be preserved, and why. The 767 is indeed a great model of aircraft, but honestly, it's not that revolutionary. Airbus had already achieved twin-engined wide-body travel before the 76' was introduced. Although the 767 brought extra range to the table, neither its performance nor its design was one-of-a-kind: DC-10s, L10-11s, and 747s were already flying further - with more people, and as mentioned, Airbus had already showed the world that twin-engined high capacity aircraft were viable. The 767 simply added range (and more modern systems) to the mix.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Aesma
Posted 2013-02-22 15:34:35 and read 22840 times.

Personally I don't mind if it's preserved, after all I will not be paying for it. But I question the appeal of that specific aircraft, the story is interesting, not the actual plane.

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 22):
After all, deadstick landings happen - and have happened - quite often. The big (pardon the pun) difference between the Gimli Glider and other aircraft was that C-GAUN was much larger. While the pilots in question handled the emergency excellently, fault was found with the airline by Transport Canada, and (as someone else mentioned) AC probably doesn't want to draw too much attention to that.

The pilots were also at fault. But cameras everywhere and 24/7 news channels also make a big difference between the two stories. In 30 years many people that don't really care about aviation will still remember (with some help) the Hudson water landing, while the Gimli is only an aviation enthusiasts thing.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Goose
Posted 2013-02-22 15:45:28 and read 22713 times.

Quoting C172Akula (Reply 8):
Your aviation museum wouldn't want a incredibly cool piece of Canadian aviation history? Just do us all a favour and quit your job now...

I'm not all hot and bothered to preserve C-GAUN, but this is really typical of Canadian aviation museums.

Remember the fracas over the Lockheed Constellation at the Toronto Airport, years ago? Not one Canadian museum cared about it, until the Museum of Flight ponied up to buy it and move it to SEA -- and even then, nobody had any money to buy it with.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-22 16:28:17 and read 22065 times.

Quoting Goose (Reply 31):
but this is really typical of Canadian aviation museums.

Sad but true, and ... it continues. Air museums all over Canada, with some very interesting aircraft are threatened with being shut down and the aircraft scrapped.

Quoting Goose (Reply 31):
Remember the fracas over the Lockheed Constellation at the Toronto Airport, years ago? Not one Canadian museum cared about it, until the Museum of Flight ponied up to buy it and move it to SEA -- and even then, nobody had any money to buy it with.

That was a very interesting aircraft. It was the only L1049G, with a complete passenger interior intact as it was when the aircraft was retired from passenger service. Galleys, Washrooms, Overhead racks, window frames .... all the things for which restorers all over the world were searching ... and here it was in one complete aircraft, as it never made the cargo conversion.

It was almost destroyed during its reconstruction as a restaurant, but it was saved. Everyone made a huge stink about it leaving Canada, but no one would do anything other than gripe. The Museum of Flight in Seattle did an absolute A-One restoration of the aircraft ... and to their credit, kept the Trans-Canada Air Lines paint scheme.

I see the same thing happening to C-GAUN. Everyone will gripe, no one will do anything, and in a few summers, enjoying a beer by the river fishing, I'll wonder if it was old 604!

[Edited 2013-02-22 16:30:19]

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Goose
Posted 2013-02-22 20:08:58 and read 19761 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 32):
Everyone made a huge stink about it leaving Canada, but no one would do anything other than gripe.

It was actually worse than that - the Toronto Aviation Museum actively worked to block the Museum of Flight from exporting the aircraft from Canada, by going through the Canadian Heritage people.

Then, when it came time to put their money where their mouths were, the Toronto museum had no money. When they actually offered to purchase the airplane from the MoF, but only for the value of the scrap aluminum.  

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-22 20:59:10 and read 19306 times.

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 22):
fault was found with the airline by Transport Canada
Quoting Aesma (Reply 30):
The pilots were also at fault

During the investigations, fault kept bouncing around the table.

There were so many "gotchas" with respect to this incident, it is almost frightening. And, I remember a simulator instructor stating, "If we tried to script this in a simulator session, everyone would cry it was too unlikely to be plausible".

For example ....A circuit breaker is not pulled to make the system operative (trust me, that's right), gauges are all blank. The Captain refuses the aircraft as the MEL states otherwise, but is told that the aircraft MEL is out of date and is read the "correct" one on the radio. The fuel is loaded in pounds not kilos, (roughly 2:1 ratio). The drip check is done, but they use inches not centimetres, (roughly 2:1 ratio) so its not caught. Then again in Posted 2013-02-22 21:04:15 and read 19223 times.

As always, the edit function does not work ... I wont bother.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Fiedman
Posted 2013-02-22 21:46:51 and read 18925 times.

A couple reasons that this aircraft should be preserved. First, the first 767 was delivered only 10 months prior to the incident, and was the first major incident involving the 767. Second, this was also the first time a North American aircraft successfully made a dead-stick landing where there were no fatalities. I do believe this aircraft should be preserved and I am saddened that the people at the WCAM don't want this aircraft because its "too new" it is part of Manitoba history and if they don't want it then I believe it should go to the Canada Aviation and Space Museum in Ottawa

  

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-22 21:58:06 and read 18852 times.

Quoting Fiedman (Reply 36):
I am saddened that the people at the WCAM don't want this aircraft because its "too new"

This March, this "new" aircraft will be 30 years old.

The "old" Viscount that is sitting in their hanger was barely more than 20 years old when it entered the museum. I think their biggest concerns are that they can not afford to purchase the aircraft, and, have no place to put it, even if they did get it.

Sadly, the Canada Aviation and Space Museum has a lot of aircraft sitting outdoors in poor condition.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Goose
Posted 2013-02-22 22:13:52 and read 18666 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 37):
The "old" Viscount that is sitting in their hanger was barely more than 20 years old when it entered the museum. I think their biggest concerns are that they can not afford to purchase the aircraft, and, have no place to put it, even if they did get it.

Yep, you got it -- money and available space are always two things in short supply with most museums I've known. And finding the space to park a 767 would place a lot of strain on even the largest outfit.

Unless it's the first one off the line, or the last one in existance, it's not really noteworthy enough to save in whole.

But that's not to say that perhaps a few pieces can be saved; maybe the breaker will have an auction. Just a thought.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: upcfordcruiser
Posted 2013-02-22 22:16:06 and read 18647 times.

Turn it into commemorative Pepsi cans.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: AY-MD11
Posted 2013-02-22 23:14:26 and read 18233 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 25):
If the TWA 800 or PA 103 reconstructions were in museums they would be huge draws

What happened to those wrecks? are they somewhere on show or scrapped?

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: soon7x7
Posted 2013-02-23 01:58:13 and read 16742 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 28):
What a shame there's such negativity on here. So there's one B767-200 preserved on the planet, yet so many enthusiasts are looking for reasons not to preserve a second. I don't get these boards some days. I swear people just argue to be contrary


Yep...always some blowhards here...
The idea of preserving an airframe that was a stepping stone in aviation history is never a mistake however insignificant some here may feel this 767 is.
When @ Munich photographing from the mound, they have on display a Constellation and two other complete airframes. It is a nice touch to an airport that demonstrated a willingness to save some history, educate young kids and open their eyes to aviation. Where or how else can you get near a major transport aircraft other than to fly somewhere on one. If the aircraft has a story to tell...that much the better.
Here on Long Island, a place that used to be the global focal point of aircraft production, there exists little evidence of its history with exception to those that have volunteered their time/money to preserve the very products, manufactured here that put men on the moon, won battles in the European theaters in WWII. With the few museums we have here it is great to go visit. I might add...it is terribly sad to see the absence of schools attending with children, and generally speaking, young people not attending these museums. Kids today can't get their pusses out of their i-phones and into a relic cockpit if you paid them.
Saving this airframe has every bit of significance as preserving a Concorde. Everyone thought scrapping them was criminal yet many are now on display and quite frankly the inside of a Concorde is no more glamorous than a MD-80 with leather CRJ seats.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: 666wizard
Posted 2013-02-23 02:14:05 and read 16616 times.

Quoting AY-MD11 (Reply 40):
What happened to those wrecks? are they somewhere on show or scrapped?

I have an idea that the fuselage of the PA103 747 is at the AAIB site at Farnborough, UK, and is now used for investigator instruction. I believe TWA800 was similarly reconstructed by the NTSB in the US for the accident investigation, but not sure where. Don't think either are publicly viewable.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-02-23 03:02:16 and read 16109 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 32):
Quoting Goose (Reply 31):
Remember the fracas over the Lockheed Constellation at the Toronto Airport, years ago? Not one Canadian museum cared about it, until the Museum of Flight ponied up to buy it and move it to SEA -- and even then, nobody had any money to buy it with.

That was a very interesting aircraft. It was the only L1049G, with a complete passenger interior intact as it was when the aircraft was retired from passenger service. Galleys, Washrooms, Overhead racks, window frames .... all the things for which restorers all over the world were searching ... and here it was in one complete aircraft, as it never made the cargo conversion.

It was almost destroyed during its reconstruction as a restaurant, but it was saved. Everyone made a huge stink about it leaving Canada, but no one would do anything other than gripe. The Museum of Flight in Seattle did an absolute A-One restoration of the aircraft ... and to their credit, kept the Trans-Canada Air Lines paint scheme.

I've often wondered if this was the plane on which I took my first flight. December 21, 1957 YUL-TPA. Can anyone confirm that (or not)?

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: ZANL188
Posted 2013-02-23 06:03:39 and read 14300 times.

Quoting 666wizard (Reply 42):
I believe TWA800 was similarly reconstructed by the NTSB in the US for the accident investigation, but not sure where. Don't think either are publicly viewable.

TWA 800 is at the NTSB Training Center.

http://www.ntsb.gov/TC/facilityloc.htm

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-02-23 06:11:48 and read 14195 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 17):
Excuse me, how many B767-200s are preserved? None? If we're going to preserve one, this one has a great story. Is there a more interesting one? Unlikely.

DL has preserved The Spirit of Delta in the museum hangar in ATL. Several days during the week she is open for viewing with retirees acting as guides. This was the 762 that the DL employees chipped in through payroll deduction to buy for the company. Remarkable. Oddly enough those that flew on her said she was something of a "hangar queen."

But it sure is neat to walk into the building and see her sitting there looking so great.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-23 08:33:42 and read 12572 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 45):
Oddly enough those that flew on her said she was something of a "hangar queen."

I had heard the same thing when I worked at DL, but I'm thinking that it was towards the end of her career. I don't think the other 767-200s were immune from this, either.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-23 09:10:33 and read 12126 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 43):
I've often wondered if this was the plane on which I took my first flight. December 21, 1957 YUL-TPA. Can anyone confirm that (or not)?

On December 21 1957, TCA had 11 L1049Gs (with one more having just arrived), so you have a 1 in 11 chance. Certainly better than Lotto 6/49!

Historical records are long gone for those early flights. I think the only way you could find out, would be (by a long shot) looking at the actual pilot's log book. Just on a whim, I checked my Dad's log books, as he flew the L1049 around that era, but no .... in December 1957, he was still on the DC-4M.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: AmericanAirFan
Posted 2013-02-23 09:12:44 and read 12088 times.

Might not seem like history now, but in 50 years it will be quite historical, and much more historically significant than other 767-200s that are out there. Money is a huge motivator as everyone else has stated. We will have to wait and see who takes it, and I'm sure there will be spotters who follow her to her new home or grave site.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-23 09:37:56 and read 11817 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 45):
DL has preserved The Spirit of Delta in the museum hangar in ATL.

I am always heartened to see airlines recognize the importance of the past, even during tough economic times.

DL, as mentioned, also the AA CR Smith Museum at DFW. Such endeavors can not be cheap! AC, maintains and flies one of its original Lockheed 10 Electras around the country, and has donated several aircraft to museums.

I also recall once, when visiting several air museums in England, that BA sponsored the storage and display of several of its aircraft from the past. KL, AF and LH have done the same, have they not?

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-23 09:43:59 and read 11771 times.

I'm also kInd of surprised by some of the negative attitudes from apparent aviation enthusiasts. It's not like people are stating several aircraft of each type, from each airline should be saved from being scrapped. For sure first off the line is always nice to keep, and what Delta employees chose to do was honorable, and completely their call.

At this point in time, I cannot think of any other airplane in Air Canada's current or stored fleet which would be significant enough to be in a museum. Nobody will be posting here: "Save Fin 611 from being scrapped - It's so important!"... nobody will care. Sad, as an airplane enthusiast to watch all of the great airplanes I grew up flying on, 747s, L-1011s, 727s, and now even early 767s get scrapped, but airlines don't want them anymore due to high time, cycles and higher fuel burn, so they might as well be recycled.

But there is one that has survived this long after beating incredible odds that made it world famous, why kill it now?

2 to 4 million for expected purchase cost minus what can be recovered selling off expensive parts is nothing. Without even considering museums, there are hundreds of thousands of individuals around the world who own homes and yachts worth much more. An aviation enthusiast like John Travolta could have the Gimli Glider parked outside his home in a blink of his eyes. It is really a matter of having the interest and the space, there are lots of people with money. But I still believe a museum would be a nicer place than part of a private collection where it would be even less accessible to the public than today, and only known to still exist.


The original CBC news report of the incident:
http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categorie...mli-glider-lands-without-fuel.html

Last flight five years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MHy6yy3Z00

And in regular service six years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJOTWfN76ec




✈ LD4 ✈

[Edited 2013-02-23 09:52:10]

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-23 10:26:47 and read 11495 times.

The Gimli Glider is one of the sickening "Canadiana" stories that makes me want to puke.

Let this rust-bucket, clapped-out 762 rest in peace in Marana (or Victoriaville or Kingman or wherever it is) where land is cheap.

As someone mentioned, anyone who wants to restore/display this sardine can should start an on-line donation webpage to raise $. You will spend hundreds of hours on this and if you're lucky, you will raise $200. You will have to register the website and perhaps pay taxes on your charity/business and it will get you no where. Good luck.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: bmacleod
Posted 2013-02-23 10:43:19 and read 11344 times.

I'm sure YWG could spare or create some hangar space if there is serious interest in preserving C-GAUN. Truly a remarkable aircraft....

BTW on same subject (large aircraft safely landing after losing engine power) anyone know if C-GITS is still in service?

- Air Transat flight 236 August 2001 landed in Azores after losing both engines.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-23 11:02:34 and read 11322 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 51):
The Gimli Glider is one of the sickening "Canadiana" stories that makes me want to puke.

Let this rust-bucket, clapped-out 762 rest in peace in Marana (or Victoriaville or Kingman or wherever it is) where land is cheap...... anyone who wants to restore/display this sardine can

Here we have it folks, words of a true aviation enthusiast! 

Obviously more than the usual quantity of piss in someone's cornflakes this morning.  




✈ LD4 ✈

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-23 11:23:35 and read 11273 times.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 52):
if there is serious interest in preserving C-GAUN. Truly a remarkable aircraft....

A remarkable aircraft? Not at all. Its a run-of-the-mill early model 762 best forgotten. The whole incident was embarassing to AC and an indictment of the neglectful ground crew and air crew. 61 (ish) Canadians could have lost their lives.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 52):
BTW on same subject (large aircraft safely landing after losing engine power) anyone know if C-GITS is still in service?

Yes. Still operated by TS. Apparently it has been nicknamed the "Atlantic Glider". How nauseating.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 53):
Here we have it folks, words of a true aviation enthusiast!

Haha.  

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-23 11:49:31 and read 11170 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 54):
A remarkable aircraft? Not at all. Its a run-of-the-mill early model 762 best forgotten. The whole incident was embarassing to AC and an indictment of the neglectful ground crew and air crew. 61 (ish) Canadians could have lost their lives.

Totally agree, the early 767-200 which 604 is may have been run of the mill, but I wouldn't say best forgotten. They were not uncomfortable at all to fly in, and brought two-aisle passenger comfort to shorter routes which had always been served by single-aisle airplanes prior to it. I believe 767 also introduced electronic flight instuments, vacuum toilets and supercritical wing for passenger airplanes.

Surprised Neil, that you would not get satisfaction from this event being embarassing for AC, and "in their face" at a museum. But likely it wouldn't bother AC at all, management from the top down has changed many times, and ownership from government to private, so anyone at AC today would likely shrug off the mistakes of others in the past.

61 lives, not including folks racing on the Gimli Speedway, including family, friends.


This was really an incredible event... nobody died on the airplane or on the ground! Even the airplane lived!.



✈ LD4 ✈

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-23 11:54:06 and read 11146 times.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 53):
Here we have it folks, words of a true aviation enthusiast!

Obviously more than the usual quantity of piss in someone's cornflakes this morning.

I don't think I want to hear what he thinks of the one that DL has on display.  

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-23 12:26:09 and read 11123 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 56):
I don't think I want to hear what he thinks of the one that DL has on display.

The Spirit of Delta? DL employees paid for that 762 with wage reductions enabling DL to buy it in 1982. A good example of mgmt/employee cooperation. Something to be proud of. Warm feelings all around. For DL folks. If DL employees can afford the upkeep/restoration of thta 762 and ATL can afford the donated floorspace/rampspace, it's a win-win.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 55):
Surprised Neil, that you would not get satisfaction from this event being embarassing for AC, and "in their face" at a museum.

I have yet to see anyone offer to pony up a ¢ for the restoration of the Gimli Glider. Would $5M cover it? Wasn't that Rovinescu's bonus last year for generating a net loss for AC? Perhaps he could donate it to ease his conscience....

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-23 13:35:33 and read 10994 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 57):
The Spirit of Delta? DL employees paid for that 762 with wage reductions enabling DL to buy it in 1982. A good example of mgmt/employee cooperation. Something to be proud of. Warm feelings all around. For DL folks. If DL employees can afford the upkeep/restoration of thta 762 and ATL can afford the donated floorspace/rampspace, it's a win-win.

I know.....I was one of those employees. DL donated the space to the museum and it's serviced by volunteers and paid for with donations and sales of museum merchandise. In addition, ship #41, a DC-3 that has been restored as well as a Travelair are on display.


As far as being a win-win for DL employees (and retirees), I agree and using your logic, even if you didn't like the idea, it wouldn't count as you had nothing to do with it. Have a great day.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-02-23 14:13:19 and read 10919 times.

Didn't AC try to place blame fully on the pilots and mechanics? I seem to recall they were all suspended, without pay, and all demoted for a while. The then Canadian NTSB placed the full blame on the airlineperticulary for poor training in converting imperial units to metric units, which was going on at the time, and they praised the crew.

So AC will have no interest in preserving this B-762.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-23 14:30:07 and read 10845 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 59):
Didn't AC try to place blame fully on the pilots and mechanics?

Inistially yes, then a lot of crow was eaten when everything was reviewed. Back pay was restored and positions regained ... with a very big apology.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 59):
The then Canadian NTSB placed the full blame on the airlineperticulary for poor training in converting imperial units to metric units, which was going on at the time, and they praised the crew.

Basically, the Aviation Safety Board of Canada was questioning why the aircraft was metric any way. Clearly a political move, forced into an area without proper training. By comparison, no other airline in Canada was operating its performance in metric units, including Pacific Western Airlines, another B767 operator in Canada.

This is an example of when blaming a few people (pilots and mechanics) is far easier to accept (for the airline) than blaming a system. Eventually, quite a few SOPs were changed as a result of this accident ... fixing the system.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: rikkus67
Posted 2013-02-23 16:13:00 and read 10674 times.

Ironically, Air Canada ended up buying PWA's two 767's...

The set of circumstances that forced this particular plane down...and the fact that it was repaired, and flew for so many more years, makes this much significant than your "run-of the mill" 762.

This plane should be preserved, and not just cut up for parts. AVRO Jetliner...Lockheed Constellation... DHC7 demonstrator, to name a few mistakes...

...and yes, I realize that there is time, money and location to consider.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-23 16:52:35 and read 10608 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 57):
I have yet to see anyone offer to pony up a ¢ for the restoration of the Gimli Glider..


Well, until now, nobody had officially stated the airplane was for sale; I believe Air Canada still owns it. Nobody is going to collect cash for a museum to purchase something that the airline could very well choose to donate (not that it is a likely scenario, but why not? 2 million dollar valued museum donation = big tax write-off). Considering C-GAUN has been parked for five years, the sale could have happened five years ago, or ten years from now. For whatever reason, April, 2013 is the expected sale date.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 57):
Would $5M cover it? Wasn't that Rovinescu's bonus last year for generating a net loss for AC? Perhaps he could donate it to ease his conscience.

Of course, and everyone would appreciate such generosity, even if it is guilt-driven.

The thought of acquiring this is interesting, but finding land adjacent to a suitable local airstrip in such a short period of time would be a challenge.




✈ LD4 ✈

[Edited 2013-02-23 16:54:32]

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2013-02-23 17:15:23 and read 10558 times.

Quoting rampbro (Reply 7):
Or the most innocuous detail, that the Gimli Glider actually flew away from that field (after repairs).

That is definitely, in the circumstances, one of the most REMARKABLE things about the situation as a whole.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Pellegrine
Posted 2013-02-24 06:30:44 and read 10063 times.

I really kind of like it, but $2.5-3 million is way too much for a museum or a private person to buy this which doesn't even hold any value at all beyond scrap.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-24 08:30:03 and read 9904 times.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 55):
Surprised Neil, that you would not get satisfaction from this event being embarassing for AC, and "in their face" at a museum.

A few years ago, I was visiting the Canada Air and Space Museum at Rockliffe (Ottawa). Among the aircraft displays were a lot of interactive displays explaining aviation terms ... one comparing Great Circle distance with Rhumb Line.

And it said .... "Imagine a line from where Air Canada crashed a DC-9 in Toronto killing two people, to where Air Canada crashed a B767 in Gimli after running out of fuel .... ".

All I could think of was, "really? why?"

In my opinion it showed a huge disrespect for the whole industry. I used to be a large financial supporter of that museum, as were a lot of AC pilots, and our union itself. When the museum could not come up with a reasonable explanation for that display, we just stopped funding. I don't think they care about losing around $10K a year, but I still shake my head.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: bmacleod
Posted 2013-02-24 11:34:27 and read 9765 times.

If C-GAUN is to be preserved, I hope it gets repainted in the 1980 red white livery.   


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ted Quackenbush

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: pnwtraveler
Posted 2013-02-24 12:37:52 and read 9660 times.

The Canada Museum of Aviation and Space would be the only Museum with any chance of enough money to maintain the aircraft. And AC would likely have to donate the aircraft and fly it to Ottawa. Could the 767 even land at Rockcliffe? The CF18 even had to have an overrun net in case it couldn't stop in time on the runway.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 64):
I really kind of like it, but $2.5-3 million is way too much for a museum or a private person to buy this which doesn't even hold any value at all beyond scrap.

I am an enthusiast and a big supporter of all aviation museums. I always try to visit any in the areas I travel in. When I reread my first post it came across as very harsh. But the facts stand. Tthis issue is exactly as above. No museum can afford to buy an aircraft at this cost. Everyone is full of nostalgia but not full of largess or generosity. The Toronto Aviation Museum will likely land on its feet, only because YYZ/Pearson will likely build it a home as a community building exercise. But it will continue to struggle to pay bills and maintain its collection even with a new home. The issue is that Aviation has a lot of enthusiasts but attracts the interest of fewer large income donors as the traditional museums (art, history, etc.). Open an account at a Bank, as them to accept donations, and start a major online pledge campaign. Put some decent seed money in there. If you can raise a million or two, some corporation might decide to contribute, or the government might match funds. As someone much wiser than me has said, "if people stopped saying what should be done, and started doing what can be done, the world would be very different."

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-02-24 14:18:21 and read 9538 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 49):
I am always heartened to see airlines recognize the importance of the past, even during tough economic times.

Boy, I wish some farsighted airline had the money and space to have preserved a Stratocruiser! There are some C-97's at various military museums but none of the civilian frames are still around. Many of the original Northwest Orient aircraft went on to become the base for the first "Guppy" airplanes. That lower deck lounge must haave been interesting. At NW that was the male purser's work station and they had to be 5'6" of less to get hired so they could stand up down there.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2013-02-24 15:11:13 and read 9436 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 65):
And it said .... "Imagine a line from where Air Canada crashed a DC-9 in Toronto killing two people, to where Air Canada crashed a B767 in Gimli after running out of fuel .... ".

Wow that is tacky.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 66):
If C-GAUN is to be preserved, I hope it gets repainted in the 1980 red white livery.

What does the script on the tail say?

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-24 15:13:11 and read 9435 times.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 66):
If C-GAUN is to be preserved, I hope it gets repainted in the 1980 red white livery.

I agree ... but, minus the ....

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 69):
What does the script on the tail say?

"Singapore '85"

All of AC's aircraft had that written on the tail, when AC started the LHR-BOM-SIN route.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: HorizonGirl
Posted 2013-02-24 15:36:42 and read 9375 times.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 20):
With such an attitude towards this incredible opportunity, Ms. Render should consider stepping down.

In my many years on these boards, I have never been one for negativity of this sort. But having made my position on this matter clear many times, I cannot keep quiet. To be honest, I find Ms. Render's indifference toward this piece of Canadian aviation history absolutely outrageous. Sure, I'll give her the fact that there are still 767-200s in service. But aside from the obvious reasons to preserve this aircraft, would it be so bad if there were a more recent piece of history in the museum that younger visitors could *gasp* relate to?? I can't imagine!

And yes, it is thrilling for an aviation enthusiast to see all the old war birds. I get that, I love them too. But there is something inexplicably magical about getting up close and personal with an old airliner. It is obvious that Ms. Render does not understand this, and while I don't see it as my place to personally attack her, I have serious trouble seeing why she is still doing her job.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 24):
That is also the way a museum can offset the intial purchase costs - sell off engines, actuators etc. parts that will never be required once the airplane is on display.

This was going to be my suggestion exactly. There are many parts of this aircraft that have no historic value, and if its basic "shell " were kept intact, no one but those with an extremely well trained eye would ever know the difference.

Costs would be drastically reduced, and it could actually be feasible if AC were to donate the aircraft.



Devon

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-24 16:23:53 and read 9320 times.

Quoting HorizonGirl (Reply 71):
Quoting Skydrol (Reply 24):
That is also the way a museum can offset the intial purchase costs - sell off engines, actuators etc. parts that will never be required once the airplane is on display.

This was going to be my suggestion exactly. There are many parts of this aircraft that have no historic value, and if its basic "shell " were kept intact, no one but those with an extremely well trained eye would ever know the difference.

Costs would be drastically reduced, and it could actually be feasible if AC were to donate the aircraft.

I believe that is what DL did, when they put The Spirit of Delta on display.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2013-02-24 20:07:03 and read 9172 times.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 67):
And AC would likely have to donate the aircraft and fly it to Ottawa. Could the 767 even land at Rockcliffe?

I think AC would have to donate the aircraft for it to be preserved. But is she even airworthy? This is the last photo I can find in the db, I assume she is one of the birds in this group, can find no more recent photo on the net, though commentators say the engines are now gone.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rotate


It would cost a fortune to get her to fly out again. Would be much cheaper to remove the wings, tail & landing gear and move it all by trucks.

YRO is 3300' IIRC, so doubt it. If they could make it airworthy, I think it would have to go to YOW then truck from there dismantled. If you are going to have to dismantle anyway, you may as well truck it all the way up from MHV, will be way cheaper than getting her airworthy again IMO.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: HorizonGirl
Posted 2013-02-24 20:55:18 and read 9104 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 73):
If you are going to have to dismantle anyway, you may as well truck it all the way up from MHV, will be way cheaper than getting her airworthy again IMO.

Exactly. I see no reason why she needs to be airworthy again. As much as I'd love to see C-GAUN fly once more, if it in any way jeopardizes the economic possibility of such a project going ahead, it is not worth it.


Devon

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-02-25 07:55:56 and read 8782 times.

Quoting AY-MD11 (Reply 40):
What happened to those wrecks? are they somewhere on show or scrapped?

The remains of PA103 were reconstructed and stayed that way for a number of years during the criminal proceedings. Since then, they have been dismantled and I last remember reading they were sitting at a junk yard in Tattershall, England (the light blue PanAm markings on the debris was visible from Google maps.) Not sure if they are still there or have finally been recycled.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2013-02-25 09:15:34 and read 8721 times.

Quoting richierich (Reply 75):
The remains of PA103 were reconstructed and stayed that way for a number of years during the criminal proceedings. Since then, they have been dismantled and I last remember reading they were sitting at a junk yard in Tattershall, England (the light blue PanAm markings on the debris was visible from Google maps.) Not sure if they are still there or have finally been recycled.

Correct. Still languishing in a scrapyard: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...light-lie-abandoned-scrapyard.html

What is particularly disgusting is the son of the yard owner was caught selling off pieces of it whilst in their care to collectors:

http://www.people.co.uk/archive/othe...ghoul-of-lockerbie-93463-20987086/

Edited to add a screen grab of the remains, courtesy of Google earth:

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z192/PrimavistaGiantSchnauzers/PA103remains_zps4a973cb0.png



Rgds

[Edited 2013-02-25 09:28:15]

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-02-25 09:31:24 and read 8694 times.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 76):
Correct. Still languishing in a scrapyard: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti....html

Thanks! (Isn't this article from 5 years ago? I wonder if they are still there...)

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 76):
What is particularly disgusting is the son of the yard owner was caught selling off pieces of it whilst in their care to collectors

Some people are sick for sure. Pan Am memorabilia, yes. Anything from the wreckage of this plane, no.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: canadianpylon
Posted 2013-02-25 09:31:51 and read 8689 times.

YWG has a fairly large chunk of tarmac where the old terminal was standing that could build a museum of sorts to air travel. Winnipeg has a rich history of air travel, and having the old Gimli Glider as part of a static display could provide a interesting museum-type experience on site.

The old terminal at YWG used to be a bit of destination (albeit a moldy one) on to itself with local denizens (myself included) with the observation lounge and kids play area. The new terminal, while stunning, is highly functional. No observation lounge, no food/amenities pre-security (except for Tim Horton's, which gets old real fast).

Anybody have a few million laying around? I want to make this a reality!

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2013-02-25 09:48:42 and read 8653 times.

Quoting richierich (Reply 77):
Thanks! (Isn't this article from 5 years ago? I wonder if they are still there...)

I would guess so; I suspect the screen grab I took off Google is showing data from last year's big aerial survey.

Rgds

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-25 10:15:05 and read 8602 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 68):
Boy, I wish some farsighted airline had the money and space to have preserved a Stratocruiser!

I agree with you on this point. It's a shame none survived.

Using that argument though, it makes no sense to preserve an ex-AC 762 since there are other 762's preserved (well the DL one to start, but nonetheless) and it was a common aircraft. Arguably the only worthwhile (or best) preserved aircraft are the rare ones (like the Viscount). AC should have preserved a Vanguard also (given its rarity) but that didn't happen.

One preserved 762 in the world is enough.

On that note, kudo's to Elvis Presley Enterprises for the world's only preserved Convair 880 in MEM -- the best part of any Graceland tour I can tell you. 8 others are extant but they will likely be broken up over time.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2013-02-25 11:18:57 and read 8531 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 80):
One preserved 762 in the world is enough.

According to you.

Fortunately there are quite a few other people in the world.  


Strange, the amount of hate you have towards this airplane, which did nothing to you. It could have killed members of my family on the track at Gimli, and still I would like to see it saved from being scrapped. Do you know that airplane could have been a total loss due to fire after passenger evac if members of the Gimli race club didn't use their own fire extinguishers to put out the fire in the nose of the airplane that almost ran them down? It is likely they and the flight crew saved one of Air Canada's brand new multi-million dollar 767s from ending up like the Air Canada DC-9 (flight 797) had only a month earlier in Cincinatti.




✈ LD4 ✈

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-26 09:31:24 and read 8079 times.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 73):
YRO is 3300' IIRC, so doubt it.

Just out of interest, a B767-200, with 10,000 Kgs of fuel, crew and nothing else, would have a landing roll from 50' to stop of 2280'! That is not taking reverse thrust into account. If there's one thing Boeing knows how to do, it's build a hell of a wing!

But, as noted above, it likely would be far cheaper just to cut it into pieces and truck it to Ottawa or Winnipeg.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 80):
Arguably the only worthwhile (or best) preserved aircraft are the rare ones (like the Viscount).

When the Viscount was put into the WCAM, they weren't all that rare. In fact, I'll bet there were probably more Viscounts still carrying passengers then, than there are B767-200s carrying passengers now. But that is the time to preserve an aircraft, when there are a lot around.

Not, to wait until there are none left, like the B-377 and Vanguard as noted above.

But, with regard to the WCAM, the reason the Viscount is there, is that Winnipeg played a very large role in the operations of the Viscount. It was TCA/AC's main maintenance base for the aircraft. When AC was a Crown Corporation, jobs had to be spread around the country and this was one such example. In fact, YWG, was also a large maintenance base for the B727 and the A320. So while I can see merit of C-GAUN sitting at the WCAM, I can also see merit for a B727 or A320 as well!

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: NorthStarDC4M
Posted 2013-02-26 09:47:56 and read 8018 times.

C-GAUN should be preserved. Best place for it IMHO is as a static display in WInnipeg or better yet, Gimli.

YEs in Gimli it wouldn't get a lot of attention, but it would be appropriate!

I've long thought Canada should have an commercial aviation museum somewhere with a representative fleet of airliners and utilityliners, from Norseman to DC-3 to Twotter to 747 to Q400... C-GAUN would fit in nicely with the 767 delivery colors, think of it nestled with a Wardair 727-100, a Pacific Western 737-200 and a CPAir DC-10!

Yes it's a pipedream for when I'm a mutli-bazillionaire... but hey   

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: United727
Posted 2013-02-26 09:56:23 and read 7991 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 80):
On that note, kudo's to Elvis Presley Enterprises for the world's only preserved Convair 880 in MEM -- the best part of any Graceland tour I can tell you. 8 others are extant but they will likely be broken up over time.

Not to go off topic, but that Convair 880 in Memphis is a complete disgrace in it's current "chopped up condition" with the wings reattached with metal plates, nuts and bolts. Additonally, there is only one other 880 that I am aware of, in California, that is complete with engines (unlike the Lisa Marie). The TWA 880 at MHV is the ONLY truely intact Convair 880 that i'm aware of. The others, around the world, that i'm aware of are all "990" models, where are the other 880's?

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-26 10:00:02 and read 7997 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 80):
On that note, kudo's to Elvis Presley Enterprises for the world's only preserved Convair 880 in MEM -- the best part of any Graceland tour I can tell you. 8 others are extant but they will likely be broken up over time.

And that same a/c is an ex-DL aircraft, the same one as in the famous photo:



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Larry Pullen

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: pnwtraveler
Posted 2013-02-26 11:07:41 and read 7907 times.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 83):
es it's a pipedream for when I'm a mutli-bazillionaire... but hey   

Let me know when that happens. I have a list of museums who will meet with you in under a week  .

I would love to see the cockpit and maybe nose section preserved for kids (and adults) to be able to sit in, with a story board covering the Gimli Glider, another the 767 itself, etc. The story is as much about the change of measurement in Canada from Imperial to Metric so might also fit with the Canada Museum of Science and Technology. I flew on the plane quite a few times in the Rapidair shuttle between YUL and YYZ and YOW. You had to see the tail fin number when boarding to know for sure. The young F/A's mostly didn't know what a Gimli Glider was. One asked me if that was the toy airplane they used to give out.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: NorthStarDC4M
Posted 2013-02-27 06:44:18 and read 7635 times.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 86):
I would love to see the cockpit and maybe nose section preserved for kids (and adults) to be able to sit in, with a story board covering the Gimli Glider, another the 767 itself, etc. The story is as much about the change of measurement in Canada from Imperial to Metric so might also fit with the Canada Museum of Science and Technology. I flew on the plane quite a few times in the Rapidair shuttle between YUL and YYZ and YOW. You had to see the tail fin number when boarding to know for sure. The young F/A's mostly didn't know what a Gimli Glider was. One asked me if that was the toy airplane they used to give out.

I flew on the GG twice, YYZ-YYC and YHZ-YYZ, On the YHZ flight after landing the F/A made a P/A thanking everyone for flying on the Gimli Glider, so some F/As knew the story.  

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: DL_Mech
Posted 2013-02-27 07:43:38 and read 7550 times.

Quoting United727 (Reply 84):
Not to go off topic, but that Convair 880 in Memphis is a complete disgrace in it's current "chopped up condition" with the wings reattached with metal plates, nuts and bolts.

Along with the holes corroded through the fuselage skin. Comparisons with the Swissair 990 at Lucerne is like night vs. day.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-27 09:45:25 and read 7450 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 82):
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 73):
YRO is 3300' IIRC, so doubt it.

Just out of interest, a B767-200, with 10,000 Kgs of fuel, crew and nothing else, would have a landing roll from 50' to stop of 2280'! That is not taking reverse thrust into account. If there's one thing Boeing knows how to do, it's build a hell of a wing!

After AC donated a DC-9-32 to the Canadian Aviation Museum and delivered it to YRO's 3,300 ft. runway in September 2002, AC's then-senior director of flight ops (the captain on that flight) was quoted saying that they should be able to fly a 767 into YRO should the occasion ever arise to donate one.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-27 09:59:34 and read 7411 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 89):
After AC donated a DC-9-32 to the Canadian Aviation Museum and delivered it to YRO's 3,300 ft. runway in September 2002, AC's then-senior director of flight ops (the captain on that flight) was quoted saying that they should be able to fly a 767 into YRO should the occasion ever arise to donate one.

There are some great videos on youtube of South African landing a 742 and 747SP at a small airfield for final preservation. Also an Interflug IL-62 landing on a dusty field on its last flight to a museum display.  
Quoting United727 (Reply 84):
Not to go off topic, but that Convair 880 in Memphis is a complete disgrace in it's current "chopped up condition" with the wings reattached with metal plates, nuts and bolts.
Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 88):
Along with the holes corroded through the fuselage skin.

Oh I agree. But it's the best maintained 880 out there.

Topic: RE: 767-200 C-GAUN (Gimli Glider) For Sale
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-02-27 10:23:48 and read 7414 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 60):
Back pay was restored and positions regained ... with a very big apology.

Yep - I flew jump seat LHR-YMX in 1990 with the captain (I've forgotten his name    and don't have my logbook handy). He was also a gliding instructor at Hawkesbury (WWII training airstrip outside YOW). Great sense of humour - pulled away from the gate and unexpectedly stopped and asked the FO if he'd checked the gas - FO was on his first revenue flight.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 16):
Being damaged goods, I imagine a discount would be in order.

How so? It was repaired and remained in regular service until 2008?


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