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Topic: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-06 11:28:50 and read 34357 times.

http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.main?LC=nav4&page=3

Worth every penny, D-ABVC is the latest of the 1989-built 744s Lufthansa has retired. With more than 120.000 hours its probably the 744 that has flown the most so far. I dont have the numbers of all of the twelve LH 744s retired so far, I only know no other airline has utilized them as much.


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Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-06 11:36:40 and read 34319 times.

With good maintenance planes last a long time! Quality airline and airframe  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: dalca
Posted 2013-02-06 11:39:42 and read 34283 times.

The LH 744's are well known for their long years of service and many hours logged. Also quite a testamant to the level of maintenance given by LH technik to them.
Maybe some of the KL B744's are also close to this mark, PH-BFA has been in fleet for more then 20 years now.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-06 11:51:52 and read 34105 times.

You might have thought LH was trying to get their money's worth out of them.   

Excellent birds. I hope to see a 748i top off order to see the 747 keep flying in LH service. Note: I also want to see more A388 sales too.

I personally hope to see (soon) a 748i order to replace A346s and more A388s to replace some additional 744s. Note: I do make the assumption that some of the future 748i will be in a higher density (less F/J, more Y) configuration.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-02-06 12:04:24 and read 33923 times.

And I bet it looked immaculate on its last flight. LH takes care of its aircraft.  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-02-06 12:22:19 and read 33768 times.

120,000 is a lot of hours. Not many 747s get that high. I think KLM and Cathay Pacific are two of the other airlines that have gotten close or may have exceeded that. You have to have a rather unique route network to get that much utilization out of a 747.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: n471wn
Posted 2013-02-06 12:24:56 and read 33746 times.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
And I bet it looked immaculate on its last flight. LH takes care of its aircraft

Yes and exactly opposite of what United does----United has retired 4 747-400's with less than 50,000 hours on the frames and at least in coach class (where I fly) the interiors are more often than not tired and dingy looking-----LH is just a cut above other carriers and a world apart from United.....well done LH!!

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: GSPflyer
Posted 2013-02-06 12:27:04 and read 33700 times.

120,000 hours equates to...

5000 days...

and over 13.5 years. Impressive!

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: LH707330
Posted 2013-02-06 12:28:18 and read 33665 times.

Which ones have they retired now? Is it D-ABVA, VB, and VC and all the D-ABT* frames with the cargo doors?

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-06 12:53:30 and read 33387 times.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 8):
Which ones have they retired now? Is it D-ABVA, VB, and VC and all the D-ABT* frames with the cargo doors?

Almost right. D-ABVF is gone, too. And from the Cargo-door planes D-ABTF is still active.

http://www.lh-taufnamen.de/lufthansa/
http://www.lh-taufnamen.de/historische-flotte/

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-02-06 13:00:23 and read 33292 times.

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 7):
120,000 hours equates to...

5000 days...

and over 13.5 years. Impressive!

D-ABVC was delivered in October 1989, so that's twenty three years; leaving aside the last three months, that's over 14h daily utilisation; of course, that doesn't allow for maintenance visits, so the real figure is probably around 15h.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: LH707330
Posted 2013-02-06 13:03:52 and read 33261 times.

Quoting na (Reply 9):

Good source, thanks. As an aside, I wonder if the site manager cares to know about their 707s, I researched all of them for a kit I built recently.

Do you know why LH bought the cargo door birds in the first place? Were they thinking of operating them as combis? I imagine they have a weight penalty of a .5-1 t.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-02-06 13:47:35 and read 32976 times.

I wonder how much the very first 744 ever delivered, ship 6303 to Northwest Airlines, has flown since in was delivered back in Jan 1989? It is still active with Delta today. The prototype 744 was delivered as ship 6301 to Northwest a few months later. 6302 was #2.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-02-06 14:08:46 and read 32821 times.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 11):
Do you know why LH bought the cargo door birds in the first place?

Lufthansa was already operating B747-200BM, so it's not a big jump. Plus, they have also operated B747F in-house. In fact I believe they were the first to have 747F. Then, out of their subsidiary German Cargo, they created LH Cargo back in 1994.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: AADC10
Posted 2013-02-06 14:23:45 and read 32690 times.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 6):
United has retired 4 747-400's with less than 50,000 hours on the frames and at least in coach class (where I fly) the interiors are more often than not tired and dingy looking

Were those leased aircraft? There is an incentive to keep owned aircraft operating but if the lease ends and they no longer fit into the airline's plans then they go back even if they have not been utilized that much. Some may have been shed during Ch. 11.

As we all know, just about the entire aircraft interior is removed during a D check except for the lavs and galleys. If the airline chose to go through the expense, all of the seats, bins, wall panels, carpet and such can be replaced with new items. The interiors look as new as the airline wants them to be. Replacing the interior costs millions, so lots of parts go back.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-06 14:23:52 and read 32697 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 12):
The prototype 744 was delivered as ship 6301 to Northwest a few months later. 6302 was #2.

The prototype (N661US) was the 6th 744 delivered to NW in December 1989.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-02-06 14:33:30 and read 32620 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 12):
I wonder how much the very first 744 ever delivered, ship 6303 to Northwest Airlines, has flown since in was delivered back in Jan 1989? It is still active with Delta today. The prototype 744 was delivered as ship 6301 to Northwest a few months later. 6302 was #2.

I'd suspect closer to 100,000. The US airlines based on geography don't have as good of widebody utilization as the European airlines do. The schedule that Northwest used had airplanes having long ground times in DTW, MSP or in Asia. Lufthansa and KLM rotate their 747s between the US and Asia which helps with utilization since their 747s rarely sit anywhere overnight.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-06 14:39:54 and read 32554 times.

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 7):
120,000 hours equates to...

5000 days...

and over 13.5 years. Impressive!

That is putting things nicely in the right perspective. Very good and impressive number for the B744 at LH.  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: nrt1011
Posted 2013-02-06 14:42:35 and read 32525 times.

I would imagine some of the BA and Qantas 747's would be logging hours such as above. They would be flying to the extremeties of the earth, in some ways I would imagine them flying more than the LH ones.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-06 15:43:44 and read 32179 times.

Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 18):
I would imagine some of the BA and Qantas 747's would be logging hours such as above. They would be flying to the extremeties of the earth, in some ways I would imagine them flying more than the LH ones.

BA, yes, probably, KLM also, but QFs 744s are often sitting on the ground for long hours. In FRA they come in the arly morning and leave in the late evening. Other European destinations are likely not much different for QF.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-02-06 15:46:10 and read 32095 times.

BA's oldest B744 is G-BNLE 93112 at 31/12/2011 apparently.
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...e=detailnosummary&fullregmark=BNLE

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: GSPflyer
Posted 2013-02-06 16:09:39 and read 31643 times.

Quoting na (Reply 19):
BA, yes, probably, KLM also, but QFs 744s are often sitting on the ground for long hours. In FRA they come in the arly morning and leave in the late evening. Other European destinations are likely not much different for QF.

You're right, and it's the same with LAX, other than the aircraft that continues to JFK.

Even the aircraft that flies SYD-DFW sits on the ground in DFW for about 8 hours before the return trip.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: ZANL188
Posted 2013-02-06 16:22:56 and read 31360 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 12):
I wonder how much the very first 744 ever delivered, ship 6303 to Northwest Airlines, has flown since in was delivered back in Jan 1989? It is still active with Delta today. The prototype 744 was delivered as ship 6301 to Northwest a few months later. 6302 was #2.

With the FAAs SDR database ( http://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx ) you can get a pretty good estimate:

As of 14 Dec 12 N661US / Ship 6301 has:
97277 hours / 12854 cycles

As of 13 Apr 12 N663US / Ship 6303 has:
95663 hours / 12450 cycles

A ways to go yet to catch the LH birds....

[Edited 2013-02-06 16:27:52]

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-06 16:36:50 and read 31062 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 20):
BA's oldest B744 is G-BNLE 93112 at 31/12/2011 apparently.
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...e=detailnosummary&fullregmark=BNLE

G-BNLE should be very close to 100.000 now then, still quite a difference to what LH achieved.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 22):
As of 14 Dec 12 N661US / Ship 6301 has:
97277 hours / 12854 cycles

As of 13 Apr 12 N663US / Ship 6303 has:
95663 hours / 12450 cycles

Surprisingly low figures, I would have expected that these birds had crossed 100.000 already. No wonder Delta wants to fly them a few years longer.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-06 16:57:31 and read 30723 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 20):
BA's oldest B744 is G-BNLE 93112 at 31/12/2011 apparently.
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...=BNLE

Interestingly G-BNLI, G-BNLL and G-BNLM, about 3/4 of a year younger, were already above 100.000 hours at that date, end of 2011. Did -BNLE spend some time in unrecorded storage?
Also, Virgin´s oldest 744, G-VHOT, 5 years younger than G-BNLE, had just 9000 hours less at that time.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: BA174
Posted 2013-02-06 17:27:23 and read 31894 times.

G-BNLE has never been stored long term, it even survived the desert in the thick of the credit crunch with much younger examples e.g. G-BNLU heading to the desert for a while. LE is a high J example so many of its missions will be east coast US/middle east and India which might explain why some mid Js which do some of the longer runs to SYD and Africa are ahead hours wise.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: md2012
Posted 2013-02-06 17:49:19 and read 31570 times.

Doing the math, 120,000 hours in 23 years is equivalent of 14-15 hour of flight per 24hr day. AMAZING. Lufthansa had this plane airborne for 60% of the 23 years. Just an interesting thought.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: daviation
Posted 2013-02-06 17:55:44 and read 32288 times.

I have flown on D-ABTB, D-ABVW, and D-ABVY. It appears from the database that the latter two now have upgraded amenities. The first one, D-ABTA (Brandenburg) was retired in August 2012. The name "Brandenburg" now appears on a new 747-830, D-ABYA.

I have to admit that D-ABTB, the aircraft I flew in 2010, was maintained in excellent condition by Lufthansa. Sitting in that cabin was like putting your feet in a nice old comfortable pair of shoes.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-06 18:13:19 and read 32029 times.

Quoting md2012 (Reply 26):

Doing the math, 120,000 hours in 23 years is equivalent of 14-15 hour of flight per 24hr day. AMAZING. Lufthansa had this plane airborne for 60% of the 23 years. Just an interesting thought.

Break even is now about 13.5 hours. So while LH did incredible for that era, that is now 'business as usual.' Do not get me wrong... I'm impressed.

What is LH's A380 utilization out of curiosity?

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: packsonflight
Posted 2013-02-06 18:27:26 and read 31825 times.

3 years back I recall Lufthansa reporting that they had 5 CF6-80 series engines with more than 100.000 hours on wing, and 8 engines with more than 99.000 hours on wing out of total of 120 engines on the 744 fleet.

That is quite something!

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: zkojq
Posted 2013-02-06 19:16:19 and read 31072 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 10):
D-ABVC was delivered in October 1989, so that's twenty three years

Twenty three years four months. Based on that lifespan, we can expect that Lufthansa's first Boeing 747-8 (D-ABYA) will be heading for the scrappers in August 2035!

Quoting sweair (Reply 1):
With good maintenance planes last a long time! Quality airline and airframe
Quoting n471wn (Reply 6):
LH is just a cut above other carriers

   I have many fond memories aboard Lufthansa 747s. Despite clearly being well used/utilised, each one I've been on has had a perfectly clean + tidy interior. Congrats Lufthansa.  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2013-02-06 20:00:23 and read 30327 times.

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 7):
13.5 years. Impressive!

That's really amazing. To have operated safely for so long a period is truly a testament to human persistence and LH's great maintenance team.

Where are these aircraft being sent for re-cycling?

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: KDTWflyer
Posted 2013-02-06 20:02:33 and read 30424 times.

Thats pretty amazing really if you think about it. Say the plane averages 550mph, that is only about 66,000,000 miles or
106,451,612km   Or in other words, 354 light minutes or ~2,640 times around the Earth. Also that's about 13 1/2 YEARS airborne. Amazing.

*DOH* I didn't see the previous posts w/ those stats but yeah thats amazing.

[Edited 2013-02-06 20:03:53]

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2013-02-06 20:06:12 and read 30289 times.

Apparently the last revenue flight of this a/c was from EWR to FRA. Was this a regular route for this a/c during it's life or where else were it regular routes ?

This proves a well made and well maintained a/c can get a lot of use. 120K hours with it cycles is pretty good and probably well within the expectations of Boeing when originally made.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: YZFOO7F
Posted 2013-02-06 20:40:23 and read 29921 times.

It's amazing to me that a collection of metal, plastic, glass, and wires that weighs 875,000 lbs when fully loaded was free from the surface of the earth for a collective total of 13.5 years. Call me a simpleton, but I just think that's pretty cool.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-06 20:57:13 and read 29699 times.

With that good experience LH had with their 747s no wonder they commited to the 747-8I  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-02-06 22:05:48 and read 29240 times.

The 744's are in excellent condition regarding their age. I fly them now for 2,5 years and never had real issues only minor things. Never had a delay due to technical reasons. Very impressive.

120,000 hours is a lot, but -VA had over 120k as well when it was scrapped. The oldest all getting close to that number.

R.I.P.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Unflug
Posted 2013-02-06 23:24:43 and read 27968 times.

Quoting md2012 (Reply 26):
Doing the math, 120,000 hours in 23 years is equivalent of 14-15 hour of flight per 24hr day. AMAZING. Lufthansa had this plane airborne for 60% of the 23 years. Just an interesting thought.

Parking fees must be high here in Germany  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-07 00:02:02 and read 27281 times.

Quoting KDTWflyer (Reply 32):
106,451,612km   Or in other words, 354 light minutes

I believe you meant light seconds.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-02-07 00:09:03 and read 27310 times.

Quoting Unflug (Reply 37):
Parking fees must be high here in Germany  

Oh they are   

An airplane only makes money when in the air.

During the winter there are some 744's parked as well in FRA as we don't need them right now. But summer flight plan starts soon and they will be back in service soon.

And more 747-8i soon   

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: photoshooter
Posted 2013-02-07 00:14:22 and read 27026 times.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 39):
During the winter there are some 744's parked as well in FRA as we don't need them right now.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to park them somewhere else in Germany? Or is there a lack of space?
(I have DUS/HAM/MUC in mind)

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-02-07 00:16:03 and read 27093 times.

Quoting photoshooter (Reply 40):
Wouldn't it be cheaper to park them somewhere else in Germany? Or is there a lack of space?
(I have DUS/HAM/MUC in mind)

That would cost money to fly them there: fees, fuel etc. And in FRA they can be reactivated faster. They are not stored, just not needed at the moment and can be used within hours.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: zkojq
Posted 2013-02-07 00:41:21 and read 26478 times.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 36):
120,000 hours is a lot, but -VA had over 120k as well when it was scrapped. The oldest all getting close to that number.

Is that a record? I doubt any other aircraft, civil or military, would have exceeded that time.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-02-07 00:43:19 and read 26601 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 42):

From what I have heard there was a 742 or 741 which had even more hours, but cannot remember which one it was.

From what I read is that most of the LH 744's which got retired now were close or above 120k hours.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Loran
Posted 2013-02-07 00:54:30 and read 26399 times.

Here is an overview of the LH fleet utilization:

Reg / Model / Data Reference Date / Total Flying Hours / Total Cycles
D-ABVC 747-400 30.11.2011 119'885.00 15'107.00
D-ABVE 747-400 30.11.2011 116'845.00 14'306.00
D-ABVD 747-400 30.11.2011 117'572.00 14'652.00
D-ABVF 747-400 30.11.2011 116'531.00 13'949.00
D-ABVH 747-400 30.11.2011 112'411.00 13'539.00
D-ABVO 747-400 30.11.2011 86'952.00 10'390.00
D-ABVK 747-400 30.11.2011 112'093.00 13'470.00
D-ABVL 747-400 30.11.2011 108'846.00 13'164.00
D-ABVN 747-400 30.11.2011 107'637.00 12'933.00
D-ABVP 747-400 30.11.2011 83'209.00 10'036.00
D-ABVR 747-400 30.11.2011 83'689.00 9'952.00
D-ABVS 747-400 30.11.2011 82'842.00 9'925.00
D-ABVT 747-400 30.11.2011 82'524.00 9'903.00
D-ABVX 747-400 30.11.2011 67'662.00 8'240.00
D-ABVY 747-400 30.11.2011 63'390.00 7'800.00
D-ABVZ 747-400 30.11.2011 63'207.00 7'777.00
D-ABTK 747-400 30.11.2011 56'272.00 7'007.00
D-ABTL 747-400 30.11.2011 56'344.00 7'022.00
D-ABVW 747-400 30.11.2011 72'888.00 8'690.00
D-ABVM 747-400 30.11.2011 74'712.00 9'060.00
D-ABVU 747-400 30.11.2011 73'940.00 9'105.00
D-ABTD 747-400PC 30.11.2011 112'465.00 14'430.00
D-ABTE 747-400PC 30.11.2011 106'682.00 13'525.00
D-ABTF 747-400PC 30.11.2011 108'539.00 13'684.00
D-ABTH 747-400PC 30.11.2011 108'417.00 13'737.00
D-ABYA 747-8 2'193.00 331.00
D-ABYC 747-8 1'774.00 237.00
D-ABYD 747-8 1'117.00 152.00
D-ABYF 747-8 273.00 43.00

Apologies converting all this into a table is quite a task.

Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 18):
I would imagine some of the BA and Qantas 747's would be logging hours such as above. They would be flying to the extremeties of the earth, in some ways I would imagine them flying more than the LH ones.

As already mentioned QF has longer ground times than LH. The highest clocking 744 of QF was as of 05.08.2011 VH-OJF with just under 100'000 hours. I assume by now it has crossed the 100'000 hours mark.

Regards,
Loran

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-02-07 00:58:58 and read 26290 times.

Quoting Loran (Reply 44):
Here is an overview of the LH fleet utilization:

Thanks for that list. I was just checking myself with the latest figures.

D-ABVC has a total hours as of today: 120,672 hours.

D-ABTK is the one with the least hours: roughly 57,000 hours.

D-ABYA the 'oldest' 748 is just above 3100 hours now.


Looks like we will see the 744 for some more years 

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Loran
Posted 2013-02-07 01:02:48 and read 26211 times.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 42):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 43):

To my knowledge the 747 airframe was designed for 130'000 and/or a cycle number which I can't remember (I assume 20'000). There were or still are some 747 classic freighters out there - from memory it was Kalitta or Polar Air Cargo - which were near 130'000 hours.

LH is retiring them slightly earlier due to maintenance raising sharply towards this benchmark. It could also be that another D-check is coming up soon.

Regards,
Loran

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: seahawk
Posted 2013-02-07 01:03:41 and read 26119 times.

And apart from that storing the 744 at DUS would just cause a spotter flashmob... 

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-02-07 01:07:38 and read 26297 times.

Quoting Loran (Reply 46):
To my knowledge the 747 airframe was designed for 130'000

I read about the same number.

Quoting Loran (Reply 46):
LH is retiring them slightly earlier due to maintenance raising sharply towards this benchmark. It could also be that another D-check is coming up soon.

Yes, this 130,000 would required a D6 Check (IIRC) and that costs a hell of a lot money and is usually not worth it.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 47):
And apart from that storing the 744 at DUS would just cause a spotter flashmob... 

Not really a flashmob, there is a 747 every once in a while there. The 748 caused many people to head out to the airport.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-07 02:27:35 and read 24854 times.

Quoting Loran (Reply 46):
Quoting zkojq (Reply 42):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 43):

To my knowledge the 747 airframe was designed for 130'000 and/or a cycle number which I can't remember (I assume 20'000). There were or still are some 747 classic freighters out there - from memory it was Kalitta or Polar Air Cargo - which were near 130'000 hours.

Two Southern Air 742SF (ex KLM) with around 135.000 hours are the recordholders in hours (and probably of all airplanes as I never heard about a higher number, not even from the sturdy DC-10 of which some also reached 120k)

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 43):
From what I read is that most of the LH 744's which got retired now were close or above 120k hours.

Thats for sure, as they are being retired at the same age and with the exception of one plane none have ever spend any reasonable time in storage. All 744s retired so far have reached over 115.000. D-ABVA had 118.000 hours for example.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 48):
Yes, this 130,000 would required a D6 Check (IIRC) and that costs a hell of a lot money and is usually not worth it

Are you sure? I have an official paper of one of the earlier LH 744s from 1991 charging more than 20 mil $ for an "airframe escalation" to 120.000 hours, so 120.000 was already an option and more than the standard 744 is built for. So if your 130k hours limit is right now, maybe later-built frames can achieve higher numbers.

Quoting dalca (Reply 2):
Maybe some of the KL B744's are also close to this mark, PH-BFA has been in fleet for more then 20 years now.

PH-BFA is even older than D-ABVC, its been flying 23 years 9 months and surely must be well over 100.000 as KLM is also known for good utilization. Still KLM holds on to their older 744s, no rumours when the first will leave the fleet. PH-BFA though had her last D-check in early 2007, so the next would be in about a year´s time. I assume thats the day it´ll go into well deserved retirement then.

Quoting Loran (Reply 44):

Thanks for that list. I used to have access to these, but lost the link.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 31):
Where are these aircraft being sent for re-cycling?

All go to Tupelo/Mississippi. I think they are processed rather quick. I know of no other airline who is so keen not to have any pictures taken of their planes during dismantling.

Quoting daviation (Reply 27):
I have to admit that D-ABTB, the aircraft I flew in 2010, was maintained in excellent condition by Lufthansa. Sitting in that cabin was like putting your feet in a nice old comfortable pair of shoes.

Indeed. In the past 24 months I have been on several of the old 744s now retired, among them TC and TE. If you would have told anyone not into avaition these were 2 years old and not over 20, everyone would have believed you.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 30):
Twenty three years four months. Based on that lifespan, we can expect that Lufthansa's first Boeing 747-8 (D-ABYA) will be heading for the scrappers in August 2035!

By that time I will be well over 70. Amazing thought, maybe my first longhaul flight, and my last, will be on a 747!

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: miaintl
Posted 2013-02-07 02:49:42 and read 24452 times.

Most of LH's 744 are in terrible shape. None of them have ptvs and all have very outdated cabins.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-02-07 02:51:22 and read 24486 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 50):
Most of LH's 744 are in terrible shape. None of them have ptvs and all have very outdated cabins.

Well,

All Lufthansa Widebodys Now Have Avod In Y (by LH422 Feb 7 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Looks like all have the new cabin now, and AVOD in Y class. So your statement is not really up to date anymore.

They are old, but technically in great shape. As I stated above they reliability is amazing.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: miaintl
Posted 2013-02-07 02:56:15 and read 23879 times.

I last flew them in 2010 on the FRA-MIA route, so maybe things have changed since then. But I remember being really surprised that they had not put Ptvs yet.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-02-07 02:58:02 and read 23912 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 52):

I last flew them in 2010 on the FRA-MIA route, so maybe things have changed since then. But I remember being really surprised that they had not put Ptvs yet.

A lot has changed since 2010 apparently and more to change in the next years.

In 2010 not a lot were refurbished, but now they all are.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: travelavnut
Posted 2013-02-07 02:58:23 and read 23824 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 50):

Most of LH's 744 are in terrible shape.

Go wash your mouth! And it's off to bed without diner for you!!

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-07 03:00:05 and read 23818 times.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 50):

Most of LH's 744 are in terrible shape. None of them have ptvs and all have very outdated cabins.

Complete rubbish. Terrible shape means they would be in bad condition. Nothing could be further from the truth.
And, they all have new seats now.

What is that everyone is so obsessed about PTV in Eco? Its fine, but not decisive for me when booking. Reading a good book or magazine is as good, or better, than staring at another screen.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-02-07 03:02:44 and read 23844 times.

Quoting na (Reply 55):
What is that everyone is so obsessed about PTV in Eco? Its fine, but not decisive for me when booking. Reading a good book or magazine is as good, or better, than staring at another screen.

Amen to that. I totally agree. Shouldn't other factors be more important than AVOD? as everybody has a tablet these days anyway, most doesn't care about it.

When I book a flight I check for other information than the AVOD...

wilco737
  

[Edited 2013-02-07 03:05:05]

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-02-07 03:07:06 and read 23616 times.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 56):

Amen to that. I totally agree. Shouldn't other factors be more important than AVOD? as everybody has a tablet these days anyway, most doesn't care about it.

Not that's not the case. Any airline in taking a product to market needs to be aware of what the market expects. It *DEMANDS* PTV for long haul nowadays. Now I agree, I read a book or a mag or stare at the wonder of nature. I also get excited in flying on a particular aircraft type. In marketing terms, I, and most peeps on here, are outlyers.

The biggest gripe on feedback is often a lack of AVOD and entertainment on an old school loop.
Nought as queer as folk you know.
*bet that doesn't translate well (!)

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Loran
Posted 2013-02-07 03:41:10 and read 23041 times.

Quoting na (Reply 49):
Two Southern Air 742SF (ex KLM) with around 135.000 hours are the recordholders in hours (and probably of all airplanes as I never heard about a higher number, not even from the sturdy DC-10 of which some also reached 120k)

These are the ones I was referring to, thanks. I think under certain circumstances extensions are granted, sometimes the OEMs also offer life extension kits to extend the cycle or hour limits, not sure if this was the case here though.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 50):
Most of LH's 744 are in terrible shape. None of them have ptvs and all have very outdated cabins.

You didn't get the point of this discussion. It is not about a particular Y product, it is about the technical condition of the LH airframes which is in no doubt excellent.

Quoting na (Reply 55):
What is that everyone is so obsessed about PTV in Eco? Its fine, but not decisive for me when booking. Reading a good book or magazine is as good, or better, than staring at another screen.

Couldn't agree more, my AVOD is the window view. At max I will have the flight info on the screen if available. I actually prefer aircraft without AVOD so that I dont have the annoying IFE box under the seat.

Regards,
Loran

[Edited 2013-02-07 04:04:33]

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: djb77
Posted 2013-02-07 03:46:02 and read 23004 times.

I flew D-ABVC last back in 2007 Frankfurt > Bangalore in economy and then a couple of days later Bangalore > Frankfurt in business. Although not fitted out with PTV or the likes in economy, the aircraft was like new in every other respect, the then new business product impressed me at the time.

I certainly had no idea then that the aircraft was a 1989 build...

Well done, Lufthansa. And Boeing for creating such a great product in the first place!

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-07 03:48:33 and read 22903 times.

Quoting Loran (Reply 58):
Couldn't agree more, my AVOD is the window view. At max I will have the flight info on the screen if available.

Exactly! For me, the advantage of AVOD is that I can have the flight info on throughout the whole flight!

Quoting Loran (Reply 58):
I actually prefer aircraft without AVOD so that I dont have the annoying IFE box under the seat.

I recently had to endure ZRH-GRU in an LX A340-300 with said box in the A row in Y, and it was not fun.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: FlyingAY
Posted 2013-02-07 04:19:46 and read 22363 times.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 56):
Amen to that. I totally agree. Shouldn't other factors be more important than AVOD? as everybody has a tablet these days anyway, most doesn't care about it.
Quoting Loran (Reply 58):
Couldn't agree more, my AVOD is the window view. At max I will have the flight info on the screen if available. I actually prefer aircraft without AVOD so that I dont have the annoying IFE box under the seat.

The forums always get full of comments from people who know how other people should spend their flight. For me an economy class long haul flight is a 10-hour misery and all means to pass my time are welcome - including PTVs. Travelling on business I've got my laptop and no wish to drag any more hardware (tablet) with me and when travelling on leisure I prefer to not take any computers or tablets with me. Now I don't fly FR myself, but I don't question other people's choice of travelling on that airline - it's their choice and they're free to make it.

My last LH 744 flight was the D-ABVW which is one of the newer 744s. As many have said here, it was maintained meticulously and the cabin was in good shape. Only the design and the colour of the plastic might tell you that it's not from this century.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Loran
Posted 2013-02-07 04:30:07 and read 22145 times.

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 61):

I agree with you, its everyone's own choice. I was just - like you are - sharing my own point of view. There is a parallel dicussion live which deals exactly with this topic:

All Lufthansa Widebodys Now Have Avod In Y (by LH422 Feb 7 2013 in Civil Aviation)

I suggest we return to the technical conversation about LH's utilization which is much more interesting.

Regards,
Loran

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Archer
Posted 2013-02-07 04:37:15 and read 22073 times.

Just a note to see how amazing this is - I believe there are 8,765 hours in a year (calculator not nearby).

Divide that into the 120,000 and that means this airliner flew time equal to January 1st thru December 31st for. what
was said above, 13 years plus!!! How many gallons of fuel?

Wow!

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: zkojq
Posted 2013-02-07 06:27:40 and read 20156 times.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 45):
D-ABTK is the one with the least hours: roughly 57,000 hours.

I assume it has the least because of the time it spent in maintenance after the gear collapse incident in 2007?

Quoting Loran (Reply 44):
D-ABVK 747-400 30.11.2011 112'093.00 13'470.00

Does anyone know if the date of D-ABVK's retirement been set yet? Given that it has the 6th highest hours in the 747 fleet, I assume it will be leaving the fleet sometime soon? (D-ABVK is the most recent 747 I've flown on).

Quoting na (Reply 49):
Two Southern Air 742SF (ex KLM) with around 135.000 hours are the recordholders in hours (and probably of all airplanes as I never heard about a higher number, not even from the sturdy DC-10 of which some also reached 120k)

Quite an achievement.

Quoting miaintl (Reply 50):
Most of LH's 744 are in terrible shape. None of them have ptvs and all have very outdated cabins.

I agree that the grey cloth seats look rather ugly and old fashioned, but things have changed. PTVs have been added and the new seat covers look much better than the old ones.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Wilco737

Quoting na (Reply 55):
What is that everyone is so obsessed about PTV in Eco?

Because carrying around books, magazines and laptops = carrying around extra weight with one's hand luggage. Additionally, us younger folk have very short attention spans when it comes to non-digital entertainment. PTVs in economy is a standard that long-haul passengers have come to expect for the last few years. I'm glad Lufthansa has now fitted all of its widebodies with proper PTVs.

Quoting Loran (Reply 58):
I actually prefer aircraft without AVOD so that I dont have the annoying IFE box under the seat.

I think the issue with the IFE boxes causing legroom problems is specific to some IFE systems.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 60):
I recently had to endure ZRH-GRU in an LX A340-300 with said box in the A row in Y, and it was not fun.

Ditto, but it was a Lufthansa A340 (D-AIFF) between HKG and MUC.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Speedbird741
Posted 2013-02-07 07:04:10 and read 19367 times.

Very sad to see these beautiful birds go. They have served us very well and will, thankfully, continue to serve us and grace the skies for another 15-20 years. Bye bye victor charlie, and say hello to my beautiful G-BNLB when you meet him in 747 heaven  

Speedbird741

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: 747classic
Posted 2013-02-07 07:15:44 and read 19254 times.

New rules for WFD (Widespread Fatigue Damage ) are limiting the flight hours and cycles of all aircraft as of July 2013.

See this recent article in Boeing Aero about this subject : http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/2/

For all aircraft types (and sub types) a limit of validity (LOV) is (or will be) established.
In fact this is the technical limit for that particular type of aircraft. No technical support is given by the OEM after passing this limit.

For the 744 the LOV is already established at 165.000 hrs and /or 35.000 cycles.(whatever comes first.)
However, the economical lifespan may be lower, because the amount or required structural inspection work during a HMV will increase sharply when the total flight count exceeds 120.000 hours .


AFAIK the high time 747 aircraft at the moment are two ex. KLM freighter aircraft, now retired by Southern Air , both have accumulated approx. 135.000 hrs. (They had already passed the 120.000 hr mark before the new rules were established).

Boeing Group 1 aircraft : Limits of validity

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: ContnlEliteCMH
Posted 2013-02-07 07:31:18 and read 18853 times.

What is the average hourly fuel burn rate for a 744? I want to contemplate the quantity of fuel she has blown out of her tailpipes. I'm assuming the total quantity will be over 250 million gallons over its lifetime.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: edds
Posted 2013-02-07 07:38:01 and read 18753 times.

I flew with on of the last ex "Combi" B744 early January FRA-DEN. I wasn't able to catch the registration but one thing I noticed was the (and I have to disagree so some other posts) terrible cabin condition of the aircraft.

The aircraft was however equipped with PTVs but still had the old bulky uncomfortably grey-yellow economy seats. While the PTV was new and more responsive than the PTVs in the updated B744 and B748i, the seats and especially the seat pitch was unacceptable (and I flew on a B757 EWR-STR on UA on the way to Germany). Besides the seat and seat pitch, the cabin lights were flickering, the rear bathrooms where dirty and smelly, the floor was dirty and my seat armrest was broken. I could tell by the passenger's faces and reactions due to the lack of legroom and bad condition of the cabin when entering the plane that most of them weren't happy customers. Furthermore, LH isn't a cheap way to fly either.

I think it is time to retire - old lady! ... at least from a customer perspective.

[Edited 2013-02-07 07:47:00]

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: packsonflight
Posted 2013-02-07 07:48:40 and read 18521 times.

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 67):

What is the average hourly fuel burn rate for a 744? I want to contemplate the quantity of fuel she has blown out of her tailpipes. I'm assuming the total quantity will be over 250 million gallons over its lifetime.

10t per hour

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-07 08:04:07 and read 18281 times.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 66):

Thanks for this.

Quoting edds (Reply 68):
I flew with on of the last ex "Combi" B744 early January FRA-DEN. I wasn't able to catch the registration but one thing I noticed was the (and I have to disagree so some other posts) terrible cabin condition of the aircraft.

Odd, in all of my flights with LH 744s I have never encountered a single one in less than very good condition, and I have been on about 1/3 of all LH 747s in the past 3 years alone.
I agree with you in respect of the old Eco seats, which indeed were bad. Last year I had a rather uncomfortable flight on one of the older LH A330s and that one was one of the very few LH planes ever on hundreds of flights that were in less than spotless condition.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Loran
Posted 2013-02-07 08:39:43 and read 17623 times.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 66):

Very interesting table. Thanks for sharing. I didn't know that the 744 LOV is in fact 165'000 hours.

Also, it seems the 737-200 may fly more than the quoted threshold. Didn't have the cabrio-732 from Aloha have 88'000 cycles at the time of the accident?

Regards,
Loran

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-02-07 09:29:16 and read 16723 times.

Quoting daviation (Reply 27):
I have flown on D-ABTB, D-ABVW, and D-ABVY. It appears from the database that the latter two now have upgraded amenities. The first one, D-ABTA (Brandenburg) was retired in August 2012. The name "Brandenburg" now appears on a new 747-830, D-ABYA.

D-ABTB is/was Brandenburg

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Florian Weyrauch

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: amirs
Posted 2013-02-07 09:42:49 and read 16429 times.

Anyone have any info on the El Al 744's?
I bet they should be high, doing TLV-NYC-TLV-LON--BKK-TLV
But they only joined at 1995

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: manny
Posted 2013-02-07 10:07:03 and read 16034 times.

I have flown D-ABVC twice. Once in 2002 and once as recently as November 2012. In 2002 i remember it had a beautiful cabin although no IFE. But on the lats flight the cabin looked tired, there were no PTV's and had the old economy seats. The carpets were showing some sign of wear. And on landing in FRA we had fire trucks and emergency vehicles follow us to the gate. There was no issue in deboarding the A/C for all passengers and there was no fire fighting going on. But still wonder why the emergency vehicles were following this aircraft all the way to the gate.

At the end of the day it's great to know this bird is being gracefully retired after such a great service provided over its lifetime.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: seabosdca
Posted 2013-02-07 11:03:40 and read 14974 times.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 66):
For the 744 the LOV is already established at 165.000 hrs and /or 35.000 cycles.(whatever comes first.)

To supplement what 747classic offered, it's important to note that an airliner's LOV is different from its design service goal (DSG), after which operators have to develop special aging aircraft maintenance programs that will considerably increase maintenance expense. From an economic perspective the DSG is more likely to represent the feasible limit. As an example, the 744 LOV is 35,000 cycles and 165,000 hours, while the 744 DSG is 20,000 cycles and 120,000 hours.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: FalconKutscher
Posted 2013-02-07 11:08:42 and read 14936 times.

PH-BUH 21110/271 B472 is stored in KMHV as N748SA (Southern Air Transport) with 130.000 h in the log...

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-07 12:07:23 and read 14379 times.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 29):

3 years back I recall Lufthansa reporting that they had 5 CF6-80 series engines with more than 100.000 hours on wing, and 8 engines with more than 99.000 hours on wing out of total of 120 engines on the 744 fleet.

Do you have a link?

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 48):
Yes, this 130,000 would required a D6 Check (IIRC) and that costs a hell of a lot money and is usually not worth it.

That makes sense. Scrap the plane at the end of the economic life.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 66):
However, the economical lifespan may be lower, because the amount or required structural inspection work during a HMV will increase sharply when the total flight count exceeds 120.000 hours .

Is it 120,000 or 130,000 or will it be 120,000 hours as of July 2013?

Quoting na (Reply 55):
What is that everyone is so obsessed about PTV in Eco?

Because it distracts the idiot next you oneself. Most people no longer consider reading 'doing something' and will interrupt or even worse a large fraction of the population wants me to justify what I'm reading. Now I turn on the PTV, flip on my Kindle, put the earphones in and ignore everyone. Oh, sometimes I have a great conversation. Usually with a 'grey hair,' but my last flight with a lovely bright lady and the flight before that with an amazingly interesting Australian man in the helicopter conversion business.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 66):

New rules for WFD (Widespread Fatigue Damage ) are limiting the flight hours and cycles of all aircraft as of July 2013.

Interesting. Thank you. I believe this is to cut Boeing's liability.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 66):
For the 744 the LOV is already established at 165.000 hrs and /or 35.000 cycles.(whatever comes first.)

So LH is leaving 40k+ hours of life left?!?  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: daviation
Posted 2013-02-07 19:44:19 and read 13748 times.

Quoting richierich (Reply 72):
D-ABTB is/was Brandenburg

Your are absolutely correct. I made a typo, of course. It was indeed D-ABTB Brandenburg.

When I last flew on D-ABVY, Nordrhein-Westfalen, I actually saw an iceberg in the Atlantic on the daylight route from FRA to EWR. At first I thought it was a ship, but then I used my camera's zoom lens and I snapped a photo of it. Now that's a good reason to look out the window instead of the PTV!

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: packsonflight
Posted 2013-02-07 19:56:59 and read 13712 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 77):
Do you have a link?
http://69.64.153.208/aviation-forums...eneral_aviation/read.main/4954920/

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: 747classic
Posted 2013-02-08 05:23:43 and read 13283 times.

Quoting FalconKutscher (Reply 76):
PH-BUH 21110/271 B472 is stored in KMHV as N748SA (Southern Air Transport) with 130.000 h in the log...

Here sister-ship , former PH-BUI (21111/274) and retired in December 2009 as N746SA, has accumulated a total of 134.694 hours and 23.911 cycles, very close to the LOV limit of 135.000 hrs for the 747-100/200/300 series.

When PH-BUH left Martinair for Southern Air in Dec 2006 it had already accumulated 127.867 hours and a total of 23.399 cycles.
The last flight as N748SA with Southern Air was SOO9748 at July 13 2011 from JFK to MHV.

Does somebody knows the exact final hour/cycle count of N748SA ? Did she exceed the 135.000 hrs, before this new limit was active ?

[Edited 2013-02-08 05:33:06]

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: ContnlEliteCMH
Posted 2013-02-08 07:04:30 and read 13028 times.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 69):
10t per hour

Wow. That's over 350 million gallons of fuel consumed over its lifetime. That's impressive.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-02-08 09:22:58 and read 12866 times.

Quoting na (Reply 49):
PH-BFA is even older than D-ABVC, its been flying 23 years 9 months and surely must be well over 100.000 as KLM is also known for good utilization. Still KLM holds on to their older 744s, no rumours when the first will leave the fleet. PH-BFA though had her last D-check in early 2007, so the next would be in about a year´s time. I assume thats the day it´ll go into well deserved retirement then.

Just found a surprising piece of information about PH-BFA. Apparently this aircraft returned to AMS as KL812 on 29 January 2013 from yet another D-Check in Kuala Lumpur. So KLM may have extended the life of this early built 1989 B747-400 for another 6 years, taking it to close to 30 years and possible to 135.000 hours or higher.

It seems KLM is heading for another lead in ageing B747s, following on from the two B747-200Combi PH-BUH & PH-BUI that went to Southern Air and reached 135.000 FH.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-08 10:03:47 and read 12751 times.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 82):
Just found a surprising piece of information about PH-BFA. Apparently this aircraft returned to AMS as KL812 on 29 January 2013 from yet another D-Check in Kuala Lumpur. So KLM may have extended the life of this early built 1989 B747-400 for another 6 years, taking it to close to 30 years and possible to 135.000 hours or higher.

It seems KLM is heading for another lead in ageing B747s, following on from the two B747-200Combi PH-BUH & PH-BUI that went to Southern Air and reached 135.000 FH.

Thats indeed a bit surprising and certainly means it´ll fly about 5 years more. By then it should indeed beat LHs record! Assuming KLM utilization is similar to LHs, and that can be expected from all we know it can be assumed its somewhere between 100.-115.000 hours. 5 years more mean about 20.-25.000 hours more, taking it indeed towards 135.000, or even higher.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: flyingalex
Posted 2013-02-08 10:37:33 and read 12748 times.

Quoting BA174 (Reply 25):
G-BNLE has never been stored long term, it even survived the desert in the thick of the credit crunch with much younger examples e.g. G-BNLU heading to the desert for a while. LE is a high J example so many of its missions will be east coast US/middle east and India which might explain why some mid Js which do some of the longer runs to SYD and Africa are ahead hours wise.

Funny you should mention South Africa, because those runs are actually among the worst in terms of aircraft utilisation. One example:

BA57 LHR-JNB 20:45-09:40+1 (10:55 hours block time)

The aircraft then sits at JNB all day, before operating the following flight home:
BA54 JNB-LHR 21:40-06:45+1 (11:05 hours block time)

The aircraft is away from base for 34 hours to achieve 22 hours.



Compare that to, say, a LAX run:

BA269 LHR-LAX 15:00 - 18:05 (11:05 hours block time)

BA268 LAX-LHR 20:40-14:50+1 (10:10 hours block time)

This has the aircraft away from base for about 24 hours, clocking over 21 hours in the process.


In terms of utilisation, Australia's better than South Africa, but not so great either, considering that an aircraft doing LHR-SIN-SYD-SIN-LHR spends 10 hours on the ground in Sydney before starting the journey home again. The aircraft is away from base for 56 hours, and spends about 40 of those in the air. The long ground time at SYD is compensated somewhat by the two quick stopovers in Singapore, but if your goal were to put lots of hours on the frame in the least time, other routes are better. Something that takes an average of 9.5 hours each way, and operates with an immediate turnaround. Something like LHR-DEN or LHR-BOM, for example.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 33):
Apparently the last revenue flight of this a/c was from EWR to FRA. Was this a regular route for this a/c during it's life or where else were it regular routes ?
LH rotate their aircraft all around the network, there are no set routes. That aircraft will have been in EWR countless times, but also in HKG, JFK, GRU, ORD, NRT, BOM, SIN, LAX, PVG, etc. (I realize that many of these are no longer B744 destinations for LH, but they used to be, for many years)

[Edited 2013-02-08 10:41:47]

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: c5load
Posted 2013-02-08 11:07:05 and read 12631 times.

I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles? A smaller aircraft like the DC-9 will be retired with thousands of cycles but not many hours all things considered. So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: LH707330
Posted 2013-02-08 12:25:42 and read 12446 times.

Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?

Your question is missing the number of cycles for the 120k frame, but if we assume 120k hrs/15k cycles versus 60k/80k, the latter will have more fatigue. You get most of your airframe fatigue from the cabin pressurization.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-02-08 12:31:31 and read 12429 times.

Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles?

I believe it's the cycles due to pressurization.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: 135mech
Posted 2013-02-08 13:02:23 and read 12383 times.

Quoting Loran (Reply 58):
Couldn't agree more, my AVOD is the window view. At max I will have the flight info on the screen if available. I actually prefer aircraft without AVOD so that I dont have the annoying IFE box under the seat.

Regards,
Loran

Agreed, I flew (4 times) NW A332's Trans-pac, and while the AVOD was nice, the box under the seat took up so much room that it was uncomfortable to try and stretch out my legs. My "avod" is also the window! LOL

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 77):
Interesting. Thank you. I believe this is to cut Boeing's liability.

Could it also be, to prevent low cost carriers from over-extending their usefulness with out having adequate $$$ to care for the older frames?

Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles? A smaller aircraft like the DC-9 will be retired with thousands of cycles but not many hours all things considered. So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?

Cycles are usually a lot harder on the frame then the hours. That would be one reason for the 35,000 cycles per lifetime of the 744 on that chart.

Regards,
135Mech

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-08 15:19:57 and read 12235 times.

Quoting 135mech (Reply 88):
Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles? A smaller aircraft like the DC-9 will be retired with thousands of cycles but not many hours all things considered. So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?

Cycles are usually a lot harder on the frame then the hours. That would be one reason for the 35,000 cycles per lifetime of the 744 on that chart.

The 19-year-old Aloha 737-200 that lost much of it's roof on a flight from ITO to HNL in 1988 only had a little over 35,000 hours but almost 90,000 cycles.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: rwessel
Posted 2013-02-08 23:49:37 and read 11771 times.

Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles? A smaller aircraft like the DC-9 will be retired with thousands of cycles but not many hours all things considered. So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?

That question only really makes sense in the context of the design mission of the aircraft. If someone were to design and build an aircraft to handle 10,000 cycles and 30,000 hours, assuming an average three hour mission, each cycle will take 1/10,000th of the life of the aircraft, and each hour 1/30,000th. If the actual aircraft flies shorter or longer missions, its structure will be unbalanced, being overbuilt in one dimension, and underbuilt in the other.

Boeing *could* build a 747 that would last 100,000 cycles, but it would be far heavier, and in practice the additional structure would be wasted as essentially no aircraft would come anywhere close to that many cycles before running out of hours. IIRC, the 747 domestics have beefed up structure in some critical area to give them a larger practical number of cycles in their many short flights between the Japanese islands (which is an unusual mission for a widebody).

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: 747classic
Posted 2013-02-09 01:04:52 and read 11695 times.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 90):
IIRC, the 747 domestics have beefed up structure in some critical area to give them a larger practical number of cycles in their many short flights between the Japanese islands (which is an unusual mission for a wide body).

In the 747-SR and 400D aircraft some parts (landing gear, etc.) are beefed up to allow more cycles with less maintenance, however the LOV limit of all 747's is 35.000 cycles.

AFAIK the limiting factor for all 747's is the amount of pressurization cycles at the oval part of the fwd fuselage, caused by the unique 747 upper-deck structure.

In the mid eighties it was discovered that parts of the structure at section 41 developed numerous fatigue cracks, caused by the pressurization cycles. (the pear shaped fuselage wanted to become an apple under pressure).

All 747's had to be inspected at regular intervals and before passing 20.000 cycles the entire structure had to be beefed up (section 41 modification), a very expensive AD.

In later built classics, the 400 and -8 series the relevant structure was beefed up, but is still limiting the number of cycles.

[Edited 2013-02-09 01:08:11]

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-02-09 01:38:10 and read 11623 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 89):
The 19-year-old Aloha 737-200 that lost much of it's roof on a flight from ITO to HNL in 1988 only had a little over 35,000 hours but almost 90,000 cycles.

90,000 cycles, and in a humid and salty environment.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-09 01:57:19 and read 11597 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 92):
90,000 cycles, and in a humid and salty environment.

That 737 was exactly 19 years old when the accident happened. If it really had done 90.000 cycles, it must have done 13 flights a day, 24/7/365! Is that realistic, even if its just 15-30 minute Island hopping? 90.000 is 15.000 above the design limit.

I know of a South American 737-200 which was taken out of service by the officials not very long ago because it had exceeded the design limit of cycles, not hours.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 91):
In later built classics, the 400 and -8 series the relevant structure was beefed up, but is still limiting the number of cycles.

Have there been any problems with old 744s in that section 41 respect?

To build a large jet as sturdy as a small one it needs an excessively heavy structure, and as big jets usually fly much longer routes thats not necessary. After about two and a half decades technology usually has developed that much further that a plane is obsolete for many purposes after calender years in the first place, not after cycles or flight hours anymore.

There was a huge technological step between the 741/2/3 and the 744, amazing before all is the increased safety of the 744. Look at the safety record of both, they are incomparable.

[Edited 2013-02-09 01:57:41]

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: rwessel
Posted 2013-02-09 02:55:56 and read 11414 times.

Quoting na (Reply 93):
That 737 was exactly 19 years old when the accident happened. If it really had done 90.000 cycles, it must have done 13 flights a day, 24/7/365! Is that realistic, even if its just 15-30 minute Island hopping? 90.000 is 15.000 above the design limit.

On that route, yes. I did some work there many years ago, and had to commute between islands. It wasn't on a 737 (it was a turboprop I can't now remember), but the airline basically had several aircraft running back and forth along the chain of islands, at least during the busy times. They even sold books of non-dated tickets, you just ripped one out and handed it over when you wanted to go. And turns were probably no more than 20 minutes either.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-02-09 03:17:14 and read 11397 times.

Quoting na (Reply 93):
That 737 was exactly 19 years old when the accident happened. If it really had done 90.000 cycles, it must have done 13 flights a day, 24/7/365! Is that realistic, even if its just 15-30 minute Island hopping? 90.000 is 15.000 above the design limit.

Remember, it was Aloha, an island hopping airline. That aircraft was delivered to Aloha in 1969, spent two or so with AirCal hopping around in California (1981-1983) then was back in the Islands for 5,5 more years. Aviation Safety Net reports it had logged: Total airframe hrs: 35496; Cycles: 89680

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: bennett123
Posted 2013-02-09 04:53:28 and read 11259 times.

I have figures of 140,000 Hours and 23,339 Cycles for N748SA.

However, I do not have a record of the source, (it was probably on this forum).

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-15 10:18:55 and read 10321 times.

Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 18):
I would imagine some of the BA and Qantas 747's would be logging hours such as above.
Quoting na (Reply 19):
BA, yes, probably, KLM also, but QFs 744s are often sitting on the ground for long hours. In FRA

As I suspected, QF makes much less of the dollar with their longhaul planes than LH. According to http://www.aussieairliners.org/b-747/aust747index.html only one of the 744s retired so far by Qantas, VH-OJG, has reached more than 100.000 hours, two or so were even retired with less than 80.000, which is very low for a 747. But some of the early-builts are still flying for QF, I am pretty sure VH-OJA, -OJC and -OJD are beyond 100.000 by now, as they are older than the plane retired with that number. -OJB, the original Wunala Dreaming, was retired with 95.000 hours almost a year ago.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Speedbird741
Posted 2013-02-15 10:37:43 and read 10223 times.

Quoting manny (Reply 74):
But still wonder why the emergency vehicles were following this aircraft all the way to the gate.

Possibly abnormally hot brakes after landing and deceleration.

Speedbird741

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-02-15 11:07:00 and read 10115 times.

Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles? A smaller aircraft like the DC-9 will be retired with thousands of cycles but not many hours all things considered. So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?

That is a great question. The answer is both, plus another. Cycles, Flight Hours, and Calendar Time all matter. If you are familiar with aircraft maintenance requirement, there are requirements in Flight Hours, Cycles and Calendar time depending on each system.

For example Flight controls equipment is usually based on Flight Hours. The actuation mechanisms, and control systems are almost always analyzed with Flight Hours being the determining factor. Of the 100 or so maintenance requirements within Flight Controls on a 747, almost all are based on Flight Hours. Many of the systems are based on flight hours since they are used continuously during the flight.

For structures it is usually both Cycles and Calendar Time. For aircraft loads it is based on cycles. However corrosion is based on calendar time. Most of the structural maintenance requirements have a limit on number of cycles and calendar time and the airline has to do maintenance according to whatever comes first based on their utilization.

For Landing Gear, for example, everything is based on cycles. Landing gear is only deployed once per flight, so it is based on cycles.

So in total, all three are factors. Airplanes are designed with targets for cycles and hours. The 747 is designed for 100,000 Flight Hours and 20,000 Cycles. That means that the design engineers used that as a lifetime for how long the parts should last. Each airplane has different design targets for its predicted lifetime. It’s ok for the airplane to exceed the lifetime that it was intended for as long as it follows the approved maintenance program, but the numbers are used to determine how strong, stiff, robust, etc each component needs to be. There are elaborate safety assessment documents that have to be approved by the FAA where the manufacturer demonstrates that the airplane does meet its intended lifespan.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-15 12:25:58 and read 10026 times.

I find the discussion interesting on cycles versus hours.

The large structure and engines care mostly about cycles. Engines wear most at end of climb while airframes go through a pressure cycle, landing, and taxi on a per flight basis (for some joints, hitting a pothole is their highest stress not the in-flight condition).

For many components, it is hours. For example, the anti-icing system really doesn't care about cycles, it is the number of hours it is on. While breaks and the resulting structure care about cycles and only cycles.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 79):
http://69.64.153.208/aviation-forums...eneral_aviation/read.main/4954920/

Thank you.

Quoting c5load (Reply 85):
I've always wondered, what is harder on airframes, the hours spent in the air or cycles? A smaller aircraft like the DC-9 will be retired with thousands of cycles but not many hours all things considered. So is 120,000 hours just as hard and fatiguing on the metal as half the hours but ~80,000 cycles?

As already noted, it is the design. For example, the A320 and 737 weren't designed for hours. So certain subsystems are not aging 'gracefully' due to extended operation at cold (altitude). Those same subsystems on a widebody will be placed to either share heat with the fuel tanks or sized to handle the shrink with the cold.

Narrobody joints often are built differently than widebody joints. This is to manage the cracking at each rivet. Douglas built many of the DC-9 with double shear lap joints to acheive the 100k cycle life. Boeing built earlier 737s with single (lighter) overlap joints. Look at how fatigue life has grown for the 737classic from 75k to 85k after LN2565 and to 100k for the NGs. (figures 5 and 6)

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/2/

But also look at the 747 vs. the 737. A 747-400 is good for up to 165,000 hours. A 737 doesn't have the thermal management (which adds weight) and has a hour life of 100,000 to 125,000 hours (-100s were only 34,000 hours).

Quoting rwessel (Reply 90):
assuming an average three hour mission, each cycle will take 1/10,000th of the life of the aircraft, and each hour 1/30,000th.

  

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 92):
90,000 cycles, and in a humid and salty environment.

It mattered more that the joint was tough to inspect, would trap moisture, and was structurally built in a fashion known to be more prone to cracking.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 99):
That is a great question. The answer is both, plus another. Cycles, Flight Hours, and Calendar Time all matter.

Nice explanation. I would just add that parts are also designed for calendar time too due to corrosion margins for the other readers. This is important as new alloys and coatings have twice the corrosion life of circa 1980 alloys/coatings. CFRP goes even further...

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-02-15 13:06:36 and read 9893 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 100):
The large structure and engines care mostly about cycles. Engines wear most at end of climb while airframes go through a pressure cycle, landing, and taxi on a per flight basis (for some joints, hitting a pothole is their highest stress not the in-flight condition).

Engines are actually all based on flight hours. If you look at the maintenance planning document, other than engine ignition, all other engine maintenance is based on flight hours.

Structure is usually both calender time and cycles. The primary causes of structural problems are fatigue which is cycle based and corrosion which is calendar based. For this reason, you get inspection requirements that are dual parameter.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-15 21:32:40 and read 9767 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 101):
Engines are actually all based on flight hours.

Those I've engineered were more cycle dependent. While oil and other properties are mostly on hours, overhaul and deterioration are due to cycles.

You are correct on the corrosion... for metal structures always an issue.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: 747classic
Posted 2013-02-16 03:00:16 and read 9493 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 99):
For Landing Gear, for example, everything is based on cycles. Landing gear is only deployed once per flight, so it is based on cycles.

For the 747 (excluding the -SR and -D versions) a gear swap is defined by calender time (steel corrosion of exposed struts ?) , before the cycles kick in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding possible high time 744 aircraft :

I just noticed on a Dutch aviation forum (scramble.nl) that the oldest KLM 747-406 aircraft, PH-BFA, came back from a HMV (D check) at Jan 29 from KUL as KL812 (normal revenue flight).
Another KLM 744 (PH-BFE) departed as KL 811 to KUL one day earlier, also for a HMV. Scheduled return is March 29.

So, another 5-6 years before the next HMV for these old lady's.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-23 03:16:05 and read 8536 times.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 103):
I just noticed on a Dutch aviation forum (scramble.nl) that the oldest KLM 747-406 aircraft, PH-BFA, came back from a HMV (D check) at Jan 29 from KUL as KL812 (normal revenue flight).
Another KLM 744 (PH-BFE) departed as KL 811 to KUL one day earlier, also for a HMV. Scheduled return is March 29.

So, another 5-6 years before the next HMV for these old lady's.

Would be nice if they fly on so long. They´ll likely pass the LH record then.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 89):
The 19-year-old Aloha 737-200 that lost much of it's roof on a flight from ITO to HNL in 1988 only had a little over 35,000 hours but almost 90,000 cycles.

After this accident other early-built Aloha-737s with similar records were scrapped due to corrosion. The highest-cycled plane I ever heard of is also a 737-200, ln.141, wich reached about 92.000 flights on only 65.000 flight hours before it was withdrawn.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: LH422
Posted 2013-02-23 09:49:09 and read 8191 times.

Quoting edds (Reply 68):
I flew with on of the last ex "Combi" B744 early January FRA-DEN. I wasn't able to catch the registration but one thing I noticed was the (and I have to disagree so some other posts) terrible cabin condition of the aircraft.

This must have been D-ABTF. The only combi left, the only 747 without the new first and the only one with the RAVE IFE system.

http://www.lh-taufnamen.de/lufthansa/

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: LH422
Posted 2013-02-23 09:55:50 and read 8194 times.

On other news, it seems LH have chosen to reactivate one of the parked 744s with the old cabin (i.e., without AVOD):

http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/d-abvd

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: aloges
Posted 2013-02-24 08:33:02 and read 7582 times.

Quoting LH422 (Reply 106):
On other news, it seems LH have chosen to reactivate one of the parked 744s with the old cabin (i.e., without AVOD):

Interesting, could this have anything to do with them not taking up D-ABYE?

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-24 09:13:10 and read 7484 times.

Quoting aloges (Reply 107):
Interesting, could this have anything to do with them not taking up D-ABYE?

I doubt that, maybe it was just planned for temporary storage as it was stored in Brussels, and not flown to the US.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-24 14:40:28 and read 7214 times.

Quoting na (Reply 93):
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 92):
90,000 cycles, and in a humid and salty environment.


That 737 was exactly 19 years old when the accident happened. If it really had done 90.000 cycles, it must have done 13 flights a day, 24/7/365! Is that realistic, even if its just 15-30 minute Island hopping?

Yes that is correct. Following excerpt from the official NTSB report:

At the time of the accident, N73711 had accumulated 35,496 flight hours and 89,680 flight cycles (landings), the second highest number of cycles in the worldwide B-737 fleet. Due to the short distance between destinations on some Aloha Airlines routes, the maximum pressure differential of 7.5 psi was not reached on every flight. Therefore, the number of equivalent full pressurization cycles on the accident airplane is significantly less than the 89,680 cycles accumulated on the airplane.

On the day of that accident the aircraft was on it's 7th flight of the day and it was only 1:45 PM.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-02-24 14:59:52 and read 7175 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 57):
Nought as queer as folk you know.
*bet that doesn't translate well (!)

Well that made this Lancastrian whose accent is 1/3 British/Australian/American laugh 
Quoting na (Reply 97):
As I suspected, QF makes much less of the dollar with their longhaul planes than LH

Yes, as noted the QF 747s and 380s aren't that heavily utilised even though they fly very long missions.

The A330s are a different story: many of the Australia-Asia routes are around the 8/9 hour mark with just a few hours turnaround at both ends of the route, plus the domestic turns, meaning that an aircraft can easily be airborne for 17 hours a day for days on end.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Caryjack
Posted 2013-02-24 16:18:17 and read 7058 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 100):
engines care mostly about cycles. Engines wear most at end of climb


I understand that long haul twins must perform a series of climbs to get to their final cruse altitude, but short haul twin can reach the final cruse on a single climb. Does this make a difference in the tally?
Thanks,  
Cary

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-24 20:14:51 and read 6907 times.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
I understand that long haul twins must perform a series of climbs to get to their final cruse altitude, but short haul twin can reach the final cruse on a single climb. Does this make a difference in the tally?

It is near the initial climb that is most brutal on engine wear and tear. "Step Climbs" have little impact on engine wear over regular cruise hours.

LIghtsaber

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-02-26 10:31:01 and read 6386 times.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 29):
3 years back I recall Lufthansa reporting that they had 5 CF6-80 series engines with more than 100.000 hours on wing, and 8 engines with more than 99.000 hours on wing out of total of 120 engines on the 744 fleet.


I assume this is not to be taken literally? Surley an aircraft wil have had more than 1 D check in 100,000 hrs?

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-02-26 11:36:42 and read 6266 times.

Quoting na (Reply 93):
That 737 was exactly 19 years old when the accident happened. If it really had done 90.000 cycles, it must have done 13 flights a day, 24/7/365! Is that realistic, even if its just 15-30 minute Island hopping? 90.000 is 15.000 above the design limit.

This was one of the incidents that led to the establishment of life limits; the design limit you speak of was probably in existence in the mind of Boeing engineers, but it had no force of law.. Before this the aircraft could be flown as long as it continued to pass inspections. And yes, the numbers are real. Flights between the Hawaiian Islands are very short, and they did a lot of them in a day.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: 135mech
Posted 2013-02-26 11:47:55 and read 6226 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 113):
Quoting packsonflight (Reply 29):
3 years back I recall Lufthansa reporting that they had 5 CF6-80 series engines with more than 100.000 hours on wing, and 8 engines with more than 99.000 hours on wing out of total of 120 engines on the 744 fleet.


I assume this is not to be taken literally? Surley an aircraft wil have had more than 1 D check in 100,000 hrs?

Why not? The CFM-56-2B is one of the GE engines designed to "fly until it fails" and the CF-6 is a part (larger) of that GE family. D checks (that I know of) don't automatically replace all engines... they are inspected and sent to overhaul if "absolutely" necessary. The modern jet/fan engine reliability is that/there for a reason.

Regards,
135Mech

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-26 12:05:56 and read 6161 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 113):
I assume this is not to be taken literally? Surley an aircraft wil have had more than 1 D check in 100,000 hrs?

Engines often stay on for D-checks. There have been several RB211s that have remained on the airframe for the entire life of the aircraft too.

Quoting 135mech (Reply 115):
Why not? The CFM-56-2B is one of the GE engines designed to "fly until it fails"

Not 100% true. However, with good boroscoping, the engine will remain on airframe a long time. Most engines are pulled earlier for fuel burn, but a few remain on for a long time.

Last I looked, the CFM-56-7 is now the durability short haul champion routinely hitting 20k cycles at which point the rotors must be replaced (or at least rebuilt). I forget the CF6 rotor life, but it is not infinite. I think it is about 12.5k cycles, but it could be 15k. Either way, as noted by the examples in post 22, enough for the economic life of a well used 747.

There is a reason typically only *one* engine stays on an airframe for the life as not all engines are allowed to be at maximum life. LH is well known for starting engine swaps practically the day a new airframe arrives in their fleet. But they'll usually keep one position untouched. I'll let the line mechanics explain more.


Lightsaber

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-02-26 13:40:48 and read 5996 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 116):
Engines often stay on for D-checks.

Thanks. I didn't realize that.

Quoting 135mech (Reply 115):
Why not? The CFM-56-2B is one of the GE engines designed to "fly until it fails"


But it doesn't have to remain on the same airframe to qualify for this, correct? I would assume there are engines that come off one airframe and end up on another for logistical rather than (engine) mx reasons.

(Sorry -- lightsaber answered this question.)

[Edited 2013-02-26 13:52:11]

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: 135mech
Posted 2013-02-26 14:17:32 and read 5923 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 116):
Not 100% true. However, with good boroscoping, the engine will remain on airframe a long time. Most engines are pulled earlier for fuel burn, but a few remain on for a long time.

it is true for the model I listed (CFM-56-2B...especially on the KC-135R/T's). They are now working on re-doing those engines because the majority of them have been on the frames for upwards of 20+ years as was stated in a thread a while back about upgrading the efficiency of the old tankers and their CFM's.

But, I actually was asking about the CF-6's since they have been upgraded and they are now a LOT more dependable then they used to be (KC-10's), and now the CF-6-80's are on the re-engined C-5M's.

Thanks,

135Mech

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: manny
Posted 2013-02-26 16:42:12 and read 5771 times.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 98):
manny
Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 98):
Possibly abnormally hot brakes after landing and deceleration.

Speedbird741

The fire trucks and emergency vehicles were going in the opoosite direction as we were about to touchdown. SO its seems they were lining up to follow the A/C before it had landed.

And then while the A/C was taxing I could see from the reflection of the terminal glass that we were being followed by 5-6 vehicles. As we pulled up to the gate that's when a fire engine pulled up on my side of the A/C and there was one emergency vehicle right behind the A/C ( that i saw after getting off the flight). There was no panic among passengers and it did not look like these emergency vehicles had to do anything but still left wondering what was going on.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Lutfi
Posted 2013-02-26 23:46:58 and read 5592 times.

On engine swaps, back in the day of payload limited B744, CX had a sub fleet of "big J" aircraft for N America ( fewer seats, more bIz class). engine swaps would be frequent, as they sought to keep the best/ newest engines on that sub fleet. So when a new freighter arrived, then engines would be swapped for ones on that sub fleet. B773ER has stopped the need to do this.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: musapapaya
Posted 2013-02-27 08:28:42 and read 5211 times.

This discussion has showed LH can really keep their plane running with excellent maintenance and tender and care!

Unlike this, which had an eigne surge right after its D check - could be coincidence, but does not look good at all.

http://avherald.com/h?article=45e63f69&opt=0

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Aircellist
Posted 2013-02-27 11:46:57 and read 5006 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 100):
Look at how fatigue life has grown for the 737classic from 75k to 85k after LN2565 and to 100k for the NGs. (figures 5 and 6)

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/2/

On a side note, interesting that Boeing is planning a 200k hours life for the 787!

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: 4holer
Posted 2013-03-06 05:43:04 and read 4465 times.

Going to watch it fly over PHX in it's last moments of flight today...
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DLH9930

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Wilco737
Posted 2013-03-06 05:50:11 and read 4449 times.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 123):

Take some pictures and share them with us... Sad to see her go  

But D-ABVD is back in action. Was about to get retired, but LH keeps it a little longer 

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-03-06 06:08:29 and read 4341 times.

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 122):
On a side note, interesting that Boeing is planning a 200k hours life for the 787!

That doesnt make sense, a waste, technology will surely make even the 787 redundant earlier on.

Quoting Wilco737 (Reply 124):
But D-ABVD is back in action. Was about to get retired, but LH keeps it a little longer 

How long remains to be seen. A 5th 748I was scheduled for end of January, but it will now arrive later this month, possibly together with the 6th one.

As a personal sidenote, I just received news that likely I´ll be flying on a 748I again in April/May.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Wilco737
Posted 2013-03-06 06:14:09 and read 4336 times.

Quoting na (Reply 125):
How long remains to be seen. A 5th 748I was scheduled for end of January, but it will now arrive later this month, possibly together with the 6th one.

I guess only until D-ABYG will arrive. Looks like it will arrive Mid March. And the next one End of March or first part of April.

Quoting na (Reply 125):
As a personal sidenote, I just received news that likely I´ll be flying on a 748I again in April/May.

Where to/ from?

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: na
Posted 2013-03-06 06:18:32 and read 4388 times.

Quoting Wilco737 (Reply 126):
Where to/ from?

FRA-DEL with a very small chance of Bangalore.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Wilco737
Posted 2013-03-06 06:20:46 and read 4383 times.

Quoting na (Reply 127):
FRA-DEL with a very small chance of Bangalore.

Very nice. Go DEL, BLR might be on 744 for a while soon  

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: LH422
Posted 2013-03-06 07:49:33 and read 4240 times.

Here's a picture of it leaving FRA today:

http://fraaviation.forumsfree.de/t10777-06032013

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-03-06 07:55:09 and read 4202 times.

Quoting na (Reply 125):
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 122):
On a side note, interesting that Boeing is planning a 200k hours life for the 787!

That doesnt make sense, a waste, technology will surely make even the 787 redundant earlier on.

It is not a waste; it is an artifact of the fact that CFRP does not fatigue in the same way that metal does. I suspect that there are enough metal parts that will fatigue that makes it necessary to give a limit to the 787; if it was totally CFRP then a fatigue limit would be completely artificial. But you are undoubtedly right; I doubt that anyone will continue to fly a 787 to 200,000 hours, as it will likely be obsolete long before then. But considering the fact that we are actually in the first era since the beginning of flight where aircraft are being retired because they are worn out and not because they are obsolete, perhaps I am wrong. In that case, there may be efforts to extend that life; the CFRP structure has essentially unlimited life expectancy.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: 747srule
Posted 2013-03-06 12:08:48 and read 3967 times.

Inbound to Pinal Airport as of right now. Sad to see this.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: surfpunk
Posted 2013-03-06 12:33:41 and read 3888 times.

FA shows it passing to the south of Flagstaff right now.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: sonomaflyer
Posted 2013-03-06 12:50:15 and read 3811 times.

Quoting 747srule (Reply 131):
Inbound to Pinal Airport as of right now. Sad to see this.

That a/c had a long and very, very productive life. In the end, it will give "one last time" to extend the lives of its fellow 747s  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: 4holer
Posted 2013-03-06 13:10:13 and read 3705 times.

Did it do a low flyby of Goodyear or something? heck ot the path/altitude.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DLH9930
(I didn't see it)

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2013-03-06 13:33:22 and read 3641 times.

Do they salvage any usable parts from these or is just out to the desert for them?

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: flyingalex
Posted 2013-03-06 13:46:39 and read 3596 times.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 134):
Did it do a low flyby of Goodyear or something? heck ot the path/altitude.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DLH9930
(I didn't see it)

I don't know, but it certainly looks that way from the data. Are you aware that LH's cadet pilot training center is at Goodyear? Maybe it was intended as a nice little show for the new guys... 

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: solarflyer22
Posted 2013-03-06 13:47:03 and read 3606 times.

Quoting na (Reply 125):
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 122):
On a side note, interesting that Boeing is planning a 200k hours life for the 787!

There is no way 787 will last 200k hours. If anyone other than Iran uses them past 150K, I'll eat a shoe. I dont think the CFRP, laser welding and rivets will last that long. Remember its also pressurized more, to 5000ft, so there is ~25% more pressure on the frame for ALL of those hours too.

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: Wilco737
Posted 2013-03-06 22:38:03 and read 3283 times.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 136):
I don't know, but it certainly looks that way from the data. Are you aware that LH's cadet pilot training center is at Goodyear? Maybe it was intended as a nice little show for the new guys... 

That would be awesome! Hope someone takes pictures of it 

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: zkojq
Posted 2013-03-06 23:15:56 and read 3239 times.

Quoting LH422 (Reply 129):

Here's a picture of it leaving FRA today:

Interesting that Lufthansa leaves the aircraft in its full livery for its retirement flight. Both Air New Zealand and Qantas remove the titles and logo from their 747s prior to their flights to the scrapper, which makes for rather a sad sight. Why doesn't LH do this I wonder? Happy Retirement, D-ABVC.

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Photo © Paul McCarthy
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Photo © Jonathan Rankin

Topic: RE: LH 744 Retired With Over 120.000 Hours
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-03-07 11:39:49 and read 2886 times.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 137):
There is no way 787 will last 200k hours. If anyone other than Iran uses them past 150K, I'll eat a shoe. I dont think the CFRP, laser welding and rivets will last that long. Remember its also pressurized more, to 5000ft, so there is ~25% more pressure on the frame for ALL of those hours too.

The CFRP WILL last that long. The question is whether the metal parts will. A lot depends on how many aluminum parts are subject to pressurization stress; you are quite right that they would be subject to fatigue. But from what I understand of the construction the only metal parts involved in the pressure vessel are the fasteners and door frames; and I think they are titanium, which has very different fatigue characteristics than aluminum, and, like steel, has the characteristic that if not stressed over a certain point will not fatigue. Aluminum fatigues even under very low stress, which is why life limits have to be established for aluminum structures.


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