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Topic: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-02-24 11:32:09 and read 16678 times.

Interesting article in the La Presse (french only) last friday.

http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie...pacts-negatifs-de-300-millions.php

Now, we all know that YUL is an extremely well connected city on an international level, but this is mostly concentrated on Europe, Africa, North and Central americas and the Caribbean. YUL only has one flight to Asia (western Asia), and that is QR to DOH.

Now this article basically states that the lack of non-stop flights from YUL to the top 10 techno cities in the world has a negative economical impact of 300M $ on the city. These numbers are based on a study conducted by the airports of PDX and SAN, which claim that a non stop flight generates 20 to 50 M $ in economical benefits to a city.

Now granted, some of these cities will never see a non-stop from YUL, because it simply doesn't make economical sense, but nevertheless.....

top 10 cities listed are:

SFO (only summer seasonal non stop service by AC)
SEA
SIN
MUC (daily non stop in summer, 5 weekly in winter by LH)
HEL
TLV
BLR
NRT
HKG
ICN

As a comparison, YYZ has non stop flights to 7 of these cities, vs YUL which only has 1 (not counting SFO since it's seasonal only)

Bearing this in mind, I would just like to know your thoughts about this and if you think this study holds any water?

Of note, at the end of the article, Mr. Rovinescu, AC's president & CEO, says he's optimistic about a non stop from YUL to PEK and BEY.

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-02-24 11:37:18 and read 16683 times.

Lets make it two destinations in western Asia. Forgot about RJ to AMM.

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: point2point
Posted 2013-02-24 11:41:42 and read 16641 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
SFO (only summer seasonal non stop service by AC)
SEA

YUL - U.S. West Coast definitely lacking and doable with nonstops

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
SIN

Nonstops currently not doable from NYC........ don't think they'll be doable from YUL

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
MUC (daily non stop in summer, 5 weekly in winter by LH)
HEL

MUC - maybe more could be done here
HEL - is there enough traffic here?

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
TLV


TVL probably doable.....

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
BLR
NRT
HKG
ICN

NRT and ICN probably doable.....
HKG - too long and thin I would suppose
BLR - is there really enough traffic here?



 

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2013-02-24 11:45:29 and read 16602 times.

I understand the frustration many politicians must have not having worldwide connections in their cities, but if it made economical sense wouldn't the airlines start service? Airlines these days seem to be look for any hole in networks they can take advantage of. I would think that if they could find one at YUL they would take advantage of it. Maybe I'm wrong and just nobody has thought of YUL. But to me it seems it would be a larger airport if it could be sustained..
Pat

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-24 11:55:23 and read 16517 times.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 3):
I understand the frustration many politicians must have not having worldwide connections in their cities, but if it made economical sense wouldn't the airlines start service?

Exactly.

Airlines have access to numbers which will indicate whether a route will work or not. Lets, face it, if a year round daily YUL-SFO flight were feasible, it would be in the airline's interest to do just that, as it would be more efficient.

Like when the "race card" is played without merit, often politicians in Quebec play the "anti-French card" without merit hoping for some gain. In this case, and reading the French article, i really cant see any justifications in the argument. Every city would love a non-stop flight to everywhere.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: YYZatcboy
Posted 2013-02-24 12:06:35 and read 16430 times.

Actually I could very well see this as being true... In a limited sort of way.

YUL has a very large video game development and testing /IT industry, with the likes of UBISOFT calling the city home. It could very well be that lack of non stop flights is costing (that particular industry) a significant amount of money. However that one industry alone probably would not generate enough traffic to justify NS flights. And really, YYZ is an hour away at the worst of times, so even factoring in 3 hours more to go to NRT for example (Including waiting at YUL and YYZ), it does not make the travel time that much longer all things considered.

All IMO of course.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: cyeg66
Posted 2013-02-24 12:10:15 and read 16389 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 1):
Lets make it two destinations in western Asia. Forgot about RJ to AMM.

Thenoflyzone


Lol, I was gonna remind you....

...until I read the second post.  

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-02-24 12:21:06 and read 16341 times.

A major issue regarding why YUL doesn't get international flights other than YYZ may be more attractive for many airlines is that after those airlines get to fly to YYZ, most of the times the airlines can't add more frequencies to Canada.
I bet there is the demand and CM would love to (increase YYZ to daily and) open YUL out of PTY, but CM PTY-YUL could only operate as charter according to the current bilateral.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
Now, we all know that YUL is an extremely well connected city on an international level, but this is mostly concentrated on Europe, Africa, North and Central americas and the Caribbean.

Well connected to Central America? If weekly charters and some AC leisure flights would mean that.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ChrisNH
Posted 2013-02-24 12:22:44 and read 16323 times.

I thought the A319 was supposed to be the plane for some of those 'long-and-thin' routes within North America like Seattle and San Francisco. Once AC starts getting their 787s it will be interesting to see how much 'love' they really have for YUL.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-24 12:23:25 and read 16327 times.

What does Montreal have to offer economically these days that would draw strong ties to those cities? Further beyond that, Montreal doesn't have large immigrant communities that would tie to those parts of the world. And given Quebec's immigration policies, this is highly unlikely to change any time soon.

Frankly, I'm surprised that Montreal has as many international connections as it does. From the list provided above, I could only see expansion to SFO and MUC. I can't ever see Montreal supporting service to East or Southeast Asia.

Let's be honest. Montreal's heydays are over. I remember moving to Canada in 1991 and Montreal was far more significant. There was no concept of the GTA really (or at least not as understood today). And most of Mississauga was still cornfields. The separatist movement sucked a lot more out of Quebec than most Quebecers realize. Recall that most of the big banks had their HQs in Montreal till the late 70s. Large companies like Pratt and Whitney never had facilities in the GTA till the separatist movement got going. And yet, Quebecers are back to flirting with them again.

Today, I don't see what benefit there is to doing business in Montreal. Toronto is better connected. You don't have to worry about language issues. You don't have to worry about geopolitical uncertainties. You can get a diverse workforce which lets you do business in Asia, and you don't have to worry about strange language laws impacting your diverse staff. Taxes are low for your business and your employees, public infrastructure is better and the financial nexus of the country is down the street.

Montreal is a great focal point for Quebec's businesses. For international commerce? Not even close.

(Not to say Toronto is panacea....it's a terrible big city....but comparing Toronto to Montreal....)

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-24 12:31:24 and read 16248 times.

I think focusing on "top techno cities" is wrong.

They should look at overall largest markets, not simply a small sub sector of industry.

For example San Francisco O&D is mere 112 daily each way - not even a full A320. Explains why there is not year round service. Seattle is even less - 58 per day, hence no service whatsoever.

There certainly are larger and more broadly beneficial cities Montreal can be connected to then some of the ones on the list.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: gemuser
Posted 2013-02-24 12:34:22 and read 16212 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
And given Quebec's immigration policies,

"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Gemuser

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: finnishway
Posted 2013-02-24 12:36:44 and read 16197 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
HEL

There is hardly enough traffic to YYZ from Helsinki why would there be more to YUL?

[Edited 2013-02-24 12:38:58]

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: BMI727
Posted 2013-02-24 12:39:53 and read 16175 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
(french only)

Isn't this part of the problem? I don't claim to be an expert on Canadian politics, but wouldn't Montreal and Quebec as a whole have much better business prospects if they didn't insist on being militantly francophone and borderline separatist? In some ways it seems as though they ostracize themselves from the rest of the continent.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-24 12:47:19 and read 16108 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 2):
HEL - is there enough traffic here?

Absolutely not.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):
Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
And given Quebec's immigration policies,

"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Yes, Quebec has long had some flexibility in establishing its own immigration policies under an agreement with the federal government. A few months ago I recall a Quebec government mission conducting information sessions in GVA to encourage immigrants to Quebec from the French-speaking part of Switzerland.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-02-24 13:11:16 and read 15963 times.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 3):
Airlines these days seem to be look for any hole in networks they can take advantage of.

I agree, but one impact of consolidation is that there isn't the imperative to bypass competitors and increasing fuel prices means there isn't the same ability. More and more people will see flights to hubs, which is a trend that will favor YYZ.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-24 13:25:02 and read 15893 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 1):

AMM is not a high tech city and probably brings next to no value to the city of Montreal. Question: how much of a tech city is Montreal? Montreal is once again being left behind thanks to its language laws. The quasi fascist laws of Quebec aren't conducive to attracting hi tech companies.

Quoting ytz (Reply 9):

1991??? Montreal is probably more vibrant today that it was in the 1980s. The city was a dump then. Montreal's heydays were per 1977 and more precisely per 1970. GTA starting growing at Montreal's expenses in the late 1970s.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):

Yes Quebec has their own immigration policies. No there are no border controls between Quebec and the rest of Canada. There in lies the loophole.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-24 13:33:56 and read 15866 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):
Question: how much of a tech city is Montreal?

Montreal is still one of the world's major aerospace centers with Bombardier, Bell Textron (I believe all Bell civil helicopters are built at Mirabel), CAE (world's largest flight simulator manufacturer), Pratt & Whitney Canada including their new jet engine test facility at Mirabel where their 2 747SP engine testbeds are based. Mirabel is also the assembly site for the P&W geared turbofan engine model to be used on the Bombardier CSeries also being built at Mirabel along with the CRJ-700/900/1000.

Montreal is also the headquarters of ICAO, the UN agency that deals with civil air transportation. It's also one of the two major offices of IATA (along with GVA), the world's major airline trade association and the location of the largest number of IATA staff.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: YYZatcboy
Posted 2013-02-24 13:35:00 and read 15857 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):
Question: how much of a tech city is Montreal?

This is a list of technology companies in the city of Montreal, Quebec, Canada: (Source Wikipedia)

Abilis Solutions
Adacel
Agendize
Alcatel-Lucent
Alstom
Artificial Mind and Movement
Avenue 65
Avid
Bell Canada
Bombardier Inc.
CAE
Captivision Media
CGI Group
Ciena
CMC Electronics
Collabora
Coradiant
Data-Tester
Datawind
EA Montreal
Eidos Montreal
Elanex
Ericsson
Exfo
Fujitsu Consulting
Funcom
Google
Gwava
HP
Idilia
iLiv
IBM
Ignition Telecom
Interfacing Technologies
Logibec Groupe Informatique Ltd.
ITMTL
Manwin Canada
Matrox
Messaging Architects
Microïds
Nuance Communications
Octasic
R3D Consulting
SAP AG
Strategy First
Tata Consultancy Services
Technologies Premium
Teleglobe
Ubisoft
VertigoXmedia
Videotron
XipLink

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-24 14:19:28 and read 15703 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
Let's be honest. Montreal's heydays are over.

So true. Relative to the ascendency of Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver as centres of commerce, Montreal is indeed in long term relative decline, due mainly to their language laws, high taxes and poor economy (all inter-related of course). Montreal was the pre-eminent business capital of Canada until the 60's, but has long since been ecllipsed by Toronto. Montreal will never regain the top spot, and indeed has fallen behind Calgary in terms of HQ domiciles to #3. Winnipeg is also in long term relative decline (once Canada's 3rd largest city, now 8th or 9th) but for different reasons and a different thread.

As someone said, there would be more flights to YUL if the demand was there, but it isn't.

There is actually a good economic argument for FEWER nonstop destinations from YUL. For AC to truly restructure and reduce costs, it should shutter the YUL mini-hub and route all west-bound flights thru YYZ. Few airlines would maintain 2 hubs just 300km apart -- the weaker hub weakens the whole network by duplicating costs. It makes much sense for YUL-SFO/LAX/SEA/NRT/PEK/YVR etc traffic to continue and indeed increasingly route strictly through YYZ. So perhaps YUL will have even fewer nonstop destinations at some point in the future if AC truly decides to restructure its decentralized network to reduce costs.

La Presse, a nominally Federalist paper, can lament all it wants about the lack of nonstop flights, but it should look at the causes, which are anti-English language laws and high taxes. And then there is the high corruption in Quebec society as highlighted by Macleans magazine.....

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-24 14:21:17 and read 15700 times.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 18):
This is a list of technology companies in the city of Montreal, Quebec, Canada: (Source Wikipedia)

Mostly obligatory offices to serve Québec, save the odd actual Quebec company. Where do you think Google does more, Montreal or Waterloo?

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-24 14:26:19 and read 15656 times.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):
"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Quebec screens and selects their own immigrants. It also imposes strict integration requirements. All quite different from the rest of Canada.

Quebec also maintains mini quasi-embassies overseas to facilitate all this.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Noise
Posted 2013-02-24 14:27:52 and read 15654 times.

This is so annoying.

Montreal doesn't have the head offices other cities like Toronto, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles have.

Montreal doesn't have the wealth that Toronto and Calgary and Vancouver have.

Montreal isn't as ideally located geographically as Toronto.

I can go on and on and on...

These are the reasons why Montreal doesn't have the non-stop flight it would like to have. Quebecers have been voting in separatist, franco-fascist governments that have been scared away businesses for decades. What else can you expect?

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):
"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Gemuser

Yes, Quebec does have it's own immigration policies. A large chunk of them are based on whether you can speak french or not....whereas the rest of Canada focuses more on talent/skills of the individuals...Quebec places an added emphasis on whether you can speak French.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-24 14:37:29 and read 15595 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Montreal is still one of the world's major aerospace centers

The GTA and Winnipeg are gunning for this market too. Bombardier is slowly but surely diversifying out of Montreal. Another referendum should speed that up.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-24 14:39:11 and read 15585 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 19):
For AC to truly restructure and reduce costs, it should shutter the YUL mini-hub and route all west-bound flights thru YYZ.

No. You mean to tell me there is no demand for nonstops from YUL-YYC/YVR?? If AC did that, they would lose all that traffic to WS, who would simply replace the lost nonstop capacity. To say that YUL population over 3m cant support AC nonstops to YVR pop 2m is not true. Do you think QF should cancel all BNE flights to ADL and PER???SAmre argument. If AC cancelled YUL-LAX, they would lose all that traffic to AA via ORD. Quebeckers would see AC moves and anti-French and boycott the "New AC" Canada is not the USA and cannot operate a hub spoke system like the USA does. There are ample opportunities for P2P flying within Canada.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: DesertFlyer
Posted 2013-02-24 14:51:06 and read 16153 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
SFO (only summer seasonal non stop service by AC)

I'd be interested to know how this flight does because it's always $700+ for a r/t. Seems like it must get good yields, and it's timed well, but it's also just a single A319.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-24 15:02:30 and read 16201 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 23):
The GTA and Winnipeg are gunning for this market too. Bombardier is slowly but surely diversifying out of Montreal. Another referendum should speed that up.


Really? Is this fact? Did you come up with this is your long-winded anti-Quebec tirade?

1.) Go through the FP500, over 100 of Canada's top companies are in Montreal or Quebec. The unemployment rate and employment rate are either equal or better than Ontario - and if Ontario keeps on it's current path it's debt to gdp ratio will pass Quebec within 5 years. It's really unfair to compare apples and oranges with Alberta. If Ontario and Quebec had tar sand explorations capabilities - the comparison becomes fair.

2.) do you expect people in Japan, Italy, Germany to speak english at the office? What about China, France? Whether you agree or not, it's franco-Quebeckers right to speak french and to work in a french environment which conforms to the majority of the population. Do I think that Quebec goes overboard and the OQLF is a big farce - of course. But to be so ethnocentric and not appreciate the cultural relativity of Quebec is just a lack of respect for people, which for all intents and purposes share a different culture than mainstream anglo-Canadian culture. These people have the right to be respected. Unfortunately your analysis invokes that they should not have this right.
Montreal remains the most bilingual city on the continent - and essentially all major corporations in Montreal do global business in english.


3.) Canada's top tech company - is now CGI. The HQ is in Montreal (I recall RIM being there not long ago).

3a.) corporate taxes are lower in Quebec than Ontario.

4.) Montreal is not Toronto.. that ship sailed long ago. There's got to be something in to the city if Air Canada is keen of launching Asia/Pacific and Middle East services from Montreal. Even Calin will be the first to admit that there's appreciable demand for Asia/Pacific out of Montreal. If Air Canada could source commercially viable slots, they would launch Montreal-Beijing tomorrow. Do we also need to name the list of carriers wanting to fly to YUL if bilateral rights permitted it. You know very well Turkish, COPA, Emirates, and Qatar would either increase frequencies if the rights permitted so. I will never advocate for opening bilaterals to these places - but Montreal remains an interesting market for airlines (albeit not to the same extent as Toronto no doubt)

5.) The google office in Montreal is pretty dynamic actually. I got to speak with the person who runs Google Canada and he speaks very highly of the "growing" Montreal office.


Once again there's no denying montreal is not Toronto. Montreal has a lot of against it also - taxes, language issues, corruption etc etc. But there's also a lot going for it. A very educated population, a strong base and diversified economy, and resource development will yield positive results as well. Montreal needs global links to global cities where the demand exists. In the case of Beijing, Tokyo, San Francisco, Istanbul, Beirut - the demand is there. No doubt Air Canada will begin to exploit some of this with its 787s effective 2014~2015.

[Edited 2013-02-24 15:22:16]

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-24 15:03:01 and read 16346 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 24):
You mean to tell me there is no demand for nonstops from YUL-YYC/YVR??

Of course there is demand, but remember AC is profit challenged. Its not a market share game so if AC can make more $ routing thru YYZ, they should do it.

BA no longer operates ANY longhaul flights from UK cities other than London. From MAN the only BA mainlines are to the LHR hub. Perhaps this would be a better model for AC (YUL feeding YYZ) than their current market share and hub duplication shenanigans.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 24):
If AC cancelled YUL-LAX, they would lose all that traffic to AA via ORD.

More likely AC thru YYZ. But so what? It's about profit, not market share.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 24):
Quebeckers would see AC moves and anti-French and boycott the "New AC" Canada

Oh let it happen. Who cares. AC answers to its shareholders alone. If the reduced costs from a streamlined network are greater than a little revenue loss from some silly boycott, then AC still wins.

Quoting ytz (Reply 23):
Bombardier is slowly but surely diversifying out of Montreal. Another referendum should speed that up.

Good. Quebec separatism has always been good for business in Toronto and Calgary.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ARN
Posted 2013-02-24 15:17:45 and read 16247 times.

Stockholm City Council published a report last fall on the same topic. Lack of nonstop longdistance flights reduces local economy to the equivalent of more than 2 billion Swedish crowns annually.

I do not want to start a CPH/OSL vs. ARN war here, but some contributing factors are..

1. The SAS hub in CPH including all transcontinental destinations (albeit EWR and ORD also served from ARN)

2. The proximity of HEL and the geographical position of HEL that enable AY to serve many Asian destinations within the 24 hours timeframe. (This is also doable from ARN to PEK and probably NRT too)

3. The terminal layout of ARN that until now has prevented domestic flights to be interlined fully with international flights.

Stockholm is the major financial center of the Nordic countries. Nevertheless we only see overseas routes to BKK, ORD, EWR, ADD, DOH and PEK. (Some destinations with mostly "ethnic" traffic are excluded).

Stockholm, the Montreal of Europe

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-24 15:21:18 and read 16178 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
Of course there is demand, but remember AC is profit challenged. Its not a market share game so if AC can make more $ routing thru YYZ, they should do it.

I dont think that AC would be viable as a two hub only airline with all routes either two or from YYZ and YVR. Overtime WS would render AC as a second tier carrier and put them in the same position as CP was in the late 1990s.

I was part of a AA/CP study to see what to do about CP's network. Shrinking CP to YVR only, was actually the worst profitable option.

What youre not getting is that if business cant fly from YYC-YUL, they wont fly from YYC-YYZ or YUL-YYZ. AC would become only a YYZ point of sale airline. That isnt viable. AC would also still be stuck with most of their costs but with much much less revenue. This is why shrinking to profitability with out a complete bankruptcy overall doesnt work. It didnt work for GM and wouldnt work for AC. Shrinking to YYZ and YVR only would actually increase AC's CASM, not lower it.

Your plan for AC was already looked at by CP and it doesnt work.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
Oh let it happen. Who cares. AC answers to its shareholders alone. If the reduced costs from a streamlined network are greater than a little revenue loss from some silly boycott, then AC still wins.

Actually as a former Crown Corporation, it doesnt. It has to keep its HDQ in YUL. Also again youre not understanding that it is a lot of revenue that would be lost and a little cost saved. The more an airline shrinks, the higher its CASM goes, unless there is a complete disposal of obligations under bankruptcy.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-24 15:26:49 and read 16180 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
What youre not getting is that if business cant fly from YYC-YUL, they wont fly from YYC-YYZ or YUL-YYZ. AC would become only a YYZ point of sale airline. That isnt viable. AC would also still be stuck with most of their costs but with much much less revenue. This is why shrinking to profitability with out a complete bankruptcy overall doesnt work. It didnt work for GM and wouldnt work for AC. Shrinking to YYZ and YVR only would actually increase AC's CASM, not lower it.

YYZ717 is not an airline expert   .. there are however certain economies of scale by building up a critical mass in YYZ which AC is currently undertaking as we speak.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2013-02-24 15:30:05 and read 16116 times.

It's been My understanding over the years that Quebec discouraged USA airlines from flying into Montreal, and Quebec City. In 29 years at United I've been to Montreal once and found the city Not nearly as Welcoming as YYC,YYZ, YEG or YVR which is a city I absolutely LOVE.. United is ALWAYS up to make a buck and were the opportunity there TO make it?
I'm Absolutely SURE United would have been all over it.. IMHO of Course

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-24 15:33:09 and read 16119 times.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 35):
It's been My understanding over the years that Quebec discouraged USA airlines from flying into Montreal, and Quebec City

This is factually incorrect. Montreal/Quebec City/Flin Flon Manitoba can be served easily under Canada/USA open skies treaty. Interesting United avoided Montreal and Ottawa until 2003 when it launched service to Chicago and Washington-Dulles (and AC subsequently retreated from both these markets)

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-24 15:36:22 and read 16043 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 34):
YYZ717 is not an airline expert .. there are however certain economies of scale by building up a critical mass in YYZ which AC is currently undertaking as we speak.

Growing YYZ maybe a good a good idea, but shrinking AC down to only YYZ (maybe YVR), isnt

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 35):
It's been My understanding over the years that Quebec discouraged USA airlines from flying into Montreal,

Prior to openskies, I think that any new US airline to Montreal had to serve YMX. PE flew to YMX. J7 flew to Montreal but Im not sure which airport.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-24 15:36:34 and read 16074 times.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 35):
In 29 years at United I've been to Montreal once and found the city Not nearly as Welcoming as YYC,YYZ, YEG or YVR which is a city I absolutely LOVE..

To each his own. I've lived in 3 of the 4 cities you mention (YEG/YYC/YVR) but I much prefer visiting YUL where I've never lived but have visited dozens of times (and where I am currently).

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2013-02-24 15:46:21 and read 15967 times.

Then OBVIOUSLY the return on investment wasn't there was it?? What I'm saying goes Way back to Air Wisconsin and Ransome airlines back in the late 70's back when there was a Montreal Jazz festival, My band was invited there to play and the connections were so bad From the west coast that we had to decline. The only way to get there was to fly to Calgary and change planes there. It wasn't feasible to do with a 16 piece Big band and Equipment

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-24 17:01:08 and read 15364 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
Of course there is demand, but remember AC is profit challenged. Its not a market share game so if AC can make more $ routing thru YYZ, they should do it.

I dont think that AC would be viable as a two hub only airline with all routes either two or from YYZ and YVR.

its arguably not viable now with 3 hubs. Also, YUL is too close to YYZ. It is simply not sustainable on its own as a hub.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
Overtime WS would render AC as a second tier carrier

You mean just like WS is now? WS is doing quite well as a so-called 2nd tier carrier. Profitable, growing, good stock price, no unpaid creditors, dividends. AC would do well to emulate WS as a 2nd tier carrier.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
I was part of a AA/CP study to see what to do about CP's network.

CP went bankupt (effectively), as AA recently did. Any AA/CP studies are thus meaningless. No offense. Show me a study by a profitable carrier.....that can be respected.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
The more an airline shrinks, the higher its CASM goes,

Not if its costs drop more than its revenue.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 34):
YYZ717 is not an airline expert ..


Neither is FLYYUL. Not even close. I've actually worked in the industry longer (albeit not now). Happy to compare resumes, degrees, work experience, pant size, etc. anytime  
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 37):
Growing YYZ maybe a good a good idea, but shrinking AC down to only YYZ (maybe YVR), isnt

Depends on the specifics. An airline AC's size though really augers for 2 hubs though: 1 east and 1 west. Not 3. The boutique YUL hub-ette is duplicative in terms of cost and creates network weakness. All just to satisfy Quebec.....

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-24 17:03:58 and read 15350 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 40):
Neither is FLYYUL. Not even close. I've actually worked in the industry longer (albeit not now). Happy to compare resumes, degrees, work experience, pant size, etc. anytime

Pant size? Do you secretly work for Porter .. otherwise might be tough to compete with me  

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-24 18:49:24 and read 14419 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
its arguably not viable now with 3 hubs. Also, YUL is too close to YYZ. It is simply not sustainable on its own as a hub.

YUL is not a true hub with banked flights. Most traffic on AC thru YUL is local. Plus from the maritimes to the eastern USA, YUL is better for connections than YYZ.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
You mean just like WS is now? WS is doing quite well as a so-called 2nd tier carrier.

Ok, wow. Now I know you are deficient in airline thinking. WS is doing well because it lacks all the legacy costs of AC and CP. Youre comparing AC to WS??? AC is more like CP, not WS. WS has a young workforce, few retirees and planes that havent been thru D-check

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
Not if its costs drop more than its revenue.

That never happens without a full bankruptcy clensing

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
Neither is FLYYUL. Not even close. I've actually worked in the industry longer (albeit not now). Happy to compare resumes, degrees, work experience, pant size, etc. anytime

I am. I saw yuor resume, it is impressive. But your comments show a severe lack of understanding of not just airlines but general business.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2013-02-24 19:22:07 and read 14102 times.

Isnt it normally cheaper to connect through a hub than pay the fares of a direct flight? Anyone can get to all of the cities mentioned on the wishlist with one stop already.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 24):
You mean to tell me there is no demand for nonstops from YUL-YYC/YVR??

The flights could be operated by YVR or YYC based a/c. AC could keep YUL as a domestic spoke quite easily, maybe opb Sky Regional in the future once the E-Jets are transferred over.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Even Calin will be the first to admit that there's appreciable demand for Asia/Pacific out of Montreal. If Air Canada could source commercially viable slots, they would launch Montreal-Beijing tomorrow

The demand currently routes via YVR or YYZ. I dont quite see why eliminating the stop would benefit YUL in any way, in fact the fares would probably increase.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
From MAN the only BA mainlines are to the LHR hub. Perhaps this would be a better model for AC (YUL feeding YYZ) than their current market share and hub duplication shenanigans.

Its an interesting comparison and funnily enough BA sometimes even makes money since becoming "London Airways". However, the UK market is very very different to Canada, though I suppose you could compare LHR & MAN with YYZ & YUL and AMS, CDG & FRA with ORD, JFK & DTW.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: YYZAMS
Posted 2013-02-24 19:43:45 and read 13960 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
Let's be honest. Montreal's heydays are over. I remember moving to Canada in 1991 and Montreal was far more significant. There was no concept of the GTA really (or at least not as understood today). And most of Mississauga was still cornfields. The separatist movement sucked a lot more out of Quebec than most Quebecers realize. Recall that most of the big banks had their HQs in Montreal till the late 70s. Large companies like Pratt and Whitney never had facilities in the GTA till the separatist movement got going. And yet, Quebecers are back to flirting with them again.

Today, I don't see what benefit there is to doing business in Montreal. Toronto is better connected. You don't have to worry about language issues. You don't have to worry about geopolitical uncertainties. You can get a diverse workforce which lets you do business in Asia, and you don't have to worry about strange language laws impacting your diverse staff. Taxes are low for your business and your employees, public infrastructure is better and the financial nexus of the country is down the street.

Totally agree. Why are they complaining? When I watch older movies and older music tours YUL is mentioned over YYZ. YUL was part of the circuit and it was were all the major banks were centralized, but the financial giants hightailed it to YYZ and became more stable part of Canada with the threat of seceding. There are lots of businesses in YUL but with the heads of banks and many companies headquarters in the GTA and a higher/denser population there are probably more flights needed.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-02-24 20:21:34 and read 13627 times.

If the economic demand was there, I would expect city-pairs to be served. If the demand isn't there, then it makes sense that airlines would operate from/to the city that has the greater catchment and connectivity

But a question I have, is whether Canada's aviation policy might impact on where airlines fly to/ from in the countries used in the example? Do any bilateral agreements restrict destinations that may be served and impose limits on frequencies? If an airline is only permitted to operate three rotations a week it might not be economic to split them up between several cities or may not be possible if the agreement limits access to just one destination.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-24 23:04:21 and read 12828 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 38):
Ok, wow. Now I know you are deficient in airline thinking. WS is doing well because it lacks all the legacy costs of AC and CP.

Umm no. WS is doing well because it has not built up legacy costs, and because AC has failed at managing theirs down. AC has the highest costs of any legacy carrier in NA. You are making excuses for a poorly run legacy carrier (as I would expect from an AA employee).

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 38):
But your comments show a severe lack of understanding of not just airlines but general business.

You quote a study you worked on at AA advising CP? A failing carrier advising a failed carrier? Talk about the blind leading the blind. Mentioning this does not show any understanding of airlines or business; it actually detracts from it. I would keep it quiet.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 29):
The more an airline shrinks, the higher its CASM goes


All these carriers shrunk their networks to reduce costs. Look how profitable US is now. US shuttered PIT as a hub (too close to PHL), DL is shuttering MEM (too close to ATL), US shuttered LAS (too close to PHX), NW shuttered MKE (too close to DTW and MSP. AC should similarly wind down YUL (keep flights to YYZ, YQB, NYC, CDG maybe YVR but nothing else). The resulting network simplification and cost reduction would be significant.



[Edited 2013-02-24 23:26:53]

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: airsmiles
Posted 2013-02-25 03:50:32 and read 11855 times.

As UK visitor to Montreal for the first time in the last few weeks, I was shocked that the city was so unfriendly to english speakers. I thought Canada was meant to be bi-lingual, and as a businessman at least, I met unhelpful french only signs everywhere and not much help from the local population in assisting me. I have no issue with Quebecois preserving the french language but why make it so hard for visitors in an officially bi-lingual country? It was really interesting hearing various friends and contacts opinions but, what is happening in Quebec seemed insular and hard to reconcile with being a friendly place to do international business. I heard about a lot of workers in Montreal actually living over the border in Ontario as it was much cheaper in taxes. Is it really true Quebec wants to insist that companies change their name to a french language version?

So going back to why Montreal doesn't have enough international non-stop routes, I'd say the language policies and lack of openness in it's approach (i.e. embracement of english visitors) underpin Montreal's relative decline versus Toronto. I went to the latter as well and frankly, they were more welcoming. Like it or not, english is the international language of the world, so it's to Toronto's advantage that they are a english language based city. I don't need the uncertainty and hassle of doing business with Montreal/Quebec, as it's easier to opt for Toronto.

Airlines will open more routes when Montreal has the demand, but I really don't know if the demand will ever come given the current situation there. It's a real shame as Montreal was a pleasant enough a city.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-02-25 04:24:36 and read 11584 times.

What plane could make it to SIN non-stop , especially with SQ phasing out the A340-500's.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-02-25 05:30:01 and read 11241 times.

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 43):
As UK visitor to Montreal for the first time in the last few weeks, I was shocked that the city was so unfriendly to english speakers. I thought Canada was meant to be bi-lingual, and as a businessman at least, I met unhelpful french only signs everywhere and not much help from the local population in assisting me. I have no issue with Quebecois preserving the french language but why make it so hard for visitors in an officially bi-lingual country?

I agree. I went to the GM assembly plant back in '98,and it was an eye-opening experience.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-25 05:31:15 and read 11277 times.

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 43):
As UK visitor to Montreal for the first time in the last few weeks, I was shocked that the city was so unfriendly to english speakers. I thought Canada was meant to be bi-lingual, and as a businessman at least, I met unhelpful french only signs everywhere and not much help from the local population in assisting me. I have no issue with Quebecois preserving the french language but why make it so hard for visitors in an officially bi-lingual country? It was really interesting hearing various friends and contacts opinions but, what is happening in Quebec seemed insular and hard to reconcile with being a friendly place to do international business. I heard about a lot of workers in Montreal actually living over the border in Ontario as it was much cheaper in taxes. Is it really true Quebec wants to insist that companies change their name to a french language version?

So going back to why Montreal doesn't have enough international non-stop routes, I'd say the language policies and lack of openness in it's approach (i.e. embracement of english visitors) underpin Montreal's relative decline versus Toronto. I went to the latter as well and frankly, they were more welcoming. Like it or not, english is the international language of the world, so it's to Toronto's advantage that they are a english language based city. I don't need the uncertainty and hassle of doing business with Montreal/Quebec, as it's easier to opt for Toronto.

Airlines will open more routes when Montreal has the demand, but I really don't know if the demand will ever come given the current situation there. It's a real shame as Montreal was a pleasant enough a city.

Really unfortunate you had such a bad experience. The majority of people I speak who visit the city typically have positive experiences with customer service, tourism related inquiries etc.

Look we've got isolated instances of bad service and language tensions.. but lonely plant put is in the top 10 ciites of 2013

http://www.tourisme-montreal.org/Pre...MxMjMxBQZTb3J0QnkFCURhdGUgRGVzYw==

[Edited 2013-02-25 05:39:47]

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: drgmobile
Posted 2013-02-25 05:58:37 and read 11054 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
Prior to openskies, I think that any new US airline to Montreal had to serve YMX. PE flew to YMX. J7 flew to Montreal but Im not sure which airport.

This is completely baseless. Dorval has always had U.S. carriers and transborder flights.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-02-25 06:00:49 and read 11053 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Do we also need to name the list of carriers wanting to fly to YUL if bilateral rights permitted it. You know very well Turkish, COPA, Emirates, and Qatar would either increase frequencies if the rights permitted so. I will never advocate for opening bilaterals to these places - but Montreal remains an interesting market for airlines (albeit not to the same extent as Toronto no doubt)

If YUL wants more connectivity, YUL should settle with the airlines who want to fly there now and not to be picky because IST, PTY, DXB and DOH aren't global cities in all the sense of the word but just major airline hubs.
Getting flights to major hubs is the next best thing to non-stop flights to those YUL wish-destinations.
Sure it seems Quebec has a saying in immigration but when it comes to bilaterals, not a saying in YUL promotion

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: EL-AL
Posted 2013-02-25 06:01:02 and read 11088 times.

Quoting point2point (Reply 2):
TLV


TVL probably doable.....

No it is not. Once the stupid policy of forcing any international flight to land in Montreal was cancelled, El Al moved all it's flights to Toronto, the sole destination out of Israel to Canada till this day.

I don't really know why, but large part of the jewish community in Montreal moved to Toronto since the late 1970s, so there is no economic reason to fly directly from Israel to Montreal.

Even YYZ holds only a 767 and not a larger airplane on the route (both LY & AC). From 2002 till 2007 YYZ flights flew onward to LAX with 747 or 777, and before that some flights passed via JFK because Canada alone didn't have enough traffic to fill anything bigger then a 767.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-02-25 07:01:15 and read 10691 times.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 49):
I don't really know why, but large part of the jewish community in Montreal moved to Toronto since the late 1970s, so there is no economic reason to fly directly from Israel to Montreal.

many Jewish Canadians left for Toronto, fearing that Quebec might leave the federation following the rise during the 1970s of nationalist political parties in Quebec, as well as a result of Quebec's Language Law.

And yes, there is demand from YUL to Israel. The Jewish community here is still 89,000 strong, as per the 2001 census.

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 49):
Even YYZ holds only a 767 and not a larger airplane on the route (both LY & AC).

I'm sorry. Are you under the impression that a daily AC 767 and 4 weekly LY 767 in summer is not a lot of capacity for a tiny nation such as Israel? Granted there is reduced capacity in winter, but nevertheless. It is a pretty high yielding route for AC and LY no doubt.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2013-02-25 07:26:03]

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-25 08:29:08 and read 10056 times.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):
"Quebec's" 'immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Yes. You can't do business in Quebec unless you abide by the laws in Quebec as they see fit. Their language laws are restrictive and it is anti-English. The separatist government drives business out of Quebec today like it did in the 1970's.

Quoting Noise (Reply 22):
This is so annoying.

Montreal doesn't have the head offices other cities like Toronto, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles have.

Montreal doesn't have the wealth that Toronto and Calgary and Vancouver have.

Montreal isn't as ideally located geographically as Toronto.

I can go on and on and on...

These are the reasons why Montreal doesn't have the non-stop flight it would like to have. Quebecers have been voting in separatist, franco-fascist governments that have been scared away businesses for decades. What else can you expect?
Quoting Noise (Reply 22):
This is so annoying.

Montreal doesn't have the head offices other cities like Toronto, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles have.

Montreal doesn't have the wealth that Toronto and Calgary and Vancouver have.

Montreal isn't as ideally located geographically as Toronto.

I can go on and on and on...

These are the reasons why Montreal doesn't have the non-stop flight it would like to have. Quebecers have been voting in separatist, franco-fascist governments that have been scared away businesses for decades. What else can you expect?

This is the most intelligent assessment of YUL and doing business in Quebec.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
3.) Canada's top tech company - is now CGI. The HQ is in Montreal (I recall RIM being there not long ago).

RIM is going the way of the Do-Do bird. Their inability to remain competitive with Apple, Samsung and the like is what business case studies will be about in Universities across the country.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-02-25 08:40:53 and read 9905 times.

It is Canada’s fault. There is a list of airlines that want to fly there like Copa, Emirates, Turkish, etc. However the Canadian government isn’t interested in those carriers that serve markets with low O/D, and have a high number of connecting passengers. With YUL not being a big enough market to demand long haul service to airports that aren’t major connecting hubs, it is left with no service.

Sure they want Tokyo, Singapore and Hong Kong, but they’ll have to settle for what they can get. Consumers appreciate choice, but government interference never helps the consumer.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: stevebarylick
Posted 2013-02-25 08:52:31 and read 9790 times.

Many years back when Quebec and in particular, Montreal, decided to revert to conducting business and tourism in French only a backlash occurred with many foreign companies leaving Montreal for Toronto and other 'English' friendly and speaking environments and destinations. IMHO, this is one reason YUL took a hit, and helped to decide Mirabel's fate as well.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-25 08:54:20 and read 9781 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Really? Is this fact? Did you come up with this is your long-winded anti-Quebec tirade?

You're starting to imagine things. Anti-Quebec tirade. I love Montreal. I lament what it's become. As for the aerospace growth I cited. You might want to look up GE's new engine ice-testing facility in Montreal. There is no doubt in my mind, that places like Winnipeg and Toronto (or rather Mississauga) are trying to attract more aerospace jobs their way. Have a chat with Western Diversification, it'll be quite enlightening. And all I've said beyond that is that separatists may well ensure further economic harm. If you find this idea offensive, your fight is with history, not me.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
1.) Go through the FP500, over 100 of Canada's top companies are in Montreal or Quebec.

And what was that proportion 20 years ago? 30 years ago? 40 years ago?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
and if Ontario keeps on it's current path it's debt to gdp ratio will pass Quebec within 5 years.

5 years is a long time. Last I checked, Ontario is scheduled to have a balanced budget before then. And while Quebec might have a slightly leg up on the fiscal balance, the infrastructure deficit is absolutely massive.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
2.) do you expect people in Japan, Italy, Germany to speak english at the office? What about China, France?

You ever been to those places? The guy who speaks English well in the German or Chinese office is an asset not a workplace disruptor.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Whether you agree or not, it's franco-Quebeckers right to speak french and to work in a french environment which conforms to the majority of the population.

I never said Quebecers shouldn't have a right to speak French in the workplace. What is ridiculous (and what you won't find anywhere else) is legislation mandating majority language rights in the workplace.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Canada's top tech company - is now CGI.

Until Blackberry gains 50 cents on their share price? A single company (which has most of its staff outside Quebec), is hardly evidence of Montreal being a tech centre.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
3a.) corporate taxes are lower in Quebec than Ontario.
http://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLUAs...FILE/Tax-Rates-Provincial-2013.pdf
http://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLUAs...ates-Corporate-Investment-2013.pdf

Maybe Ernst and Young didn't get the memo?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
You know very well Turkish, COPA, Emirates, and Qatar would either increase frequencies if the rights permitted so.

Connecting traffic. Mostly serving tourists and VFR. But that's not what Montreal wants right?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
5.) The google office in Montreal is pretty dynamic actually. I got to speak with the person who runs Google Canada and he speaks very highly of the "growing" Montreal office.

I'm sure it's a dynamic place. Like every Google office. However, I wasn't even comparing to Toronto (which is probably another marketing office). I was comparing to Waterloo. I doubt there's a single Google office in the country that approaches the work done in Waterloo. Look at the job postings. You can tell which one does engineering. And which one does marketing.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Once again there's no denying montreal is not Toronto. Montreal has a lot of against it also - taxes, language issues, corruption etc etc. But there's also a lot going for it. A very educated population, a strong base and diversified economy, and resource development will yield positive results as well. Montreal needs global links to global cities where the demand exists. In the case of Beijing, Tokyo, San Francisco, Istanbul, Beirut - the demand is there. No doubt Air Canada will begin to exploit some of this with its 787s effective 2014~2015.

You seem to imagine that I have this hate on for Montreal. Hardly. But I do believe that on the 3 items that determine a strong business environment, Montreal is lacking:

1) Friendly regulatory and taxation environment
2) Access to markets
3) Access to capital (human, financial, etc.)

It is for this reason, I'm wondering if there is actually demand between Montreal and say Tokyo. There certainly won't be enough demand on the VFR front for Tokyo or Beijing.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-02-25 08:56:50 and read 9735 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):
The quasi fascist laws of Quebec

There are the laws, and there's the way they are applied. Less than three hours ago it was mentioned in a short chronicle in Médium large (Radio-Canada) regarding the actions of the independent OQLF's (Office québécois de la langue française) inspectors with foreign languages. People in the studio were really wondering what is going on with OQLF.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-25 09:11:06 and read 9643 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 54):
You seem to imagine that I have this hate on for Montreal. Hardly. But I do believe that on the 3 items that determine a strong business environment, Montreal is lacking:

1) Friendly regulatory and taxation environment
2) Access to markets
3) Access to capital (human, financial, etc.)

It is for this reason, I'm wondering if there is actually demand between Montreal and say Tokyo. There certainly won't be enough demand on the VFR front for Tokyo or Beijing.

There's no doubt Montreal has many things weighing it down.

Quoting ytz (Reply 54):

You're starting to imagine things. Anti-Quebec tirade. I love Montreal. I lament what it's become. As for the aerospace growth I cited. You might want to look up GE's new engine ice-testing facility in Montreal. There is no doubt in my mind, that places like Winnipeg and Toronto (or rather Mississauga) are trying to attract more aerospace jobs their way. Have a chat with Western Diversification, it'll be quite enlightening. And all I've said beyond that is that separatists may well ensure further economic harm. If you find this idea offensive, your fight is with history, not me.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
1.) Go through the FP500, over 100 of Canada's top companies are in Montreal or Quebec.

And what was that proportion 20 years ago? 30 years ago? 40 years ago?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
and if Ontario keeps on it's current path it's debt to gdp ratio will pass Quebec within 5 years.

5 years is a long time. Last I checked, Ontario is scheduled to have a balanced budget before then. And while Quebec might have a slightly leg up on the fiscal balance, the infrastructure deficit is absolutely massive.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
2.) do you expect people in Japan, Italy, Germany to speak english at the office? What about China, France?

You ever been to those places? The guy who speaks English well in the German or Chinese office is an asset not a workplace disruptor.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Whether you agree or not, it's franco-Quebeckers right to speak french and to work in a french environment which conforms to the majority of the population.

I never said Quebecers shouldn't have a right to speak French in the workplace. What is ridiculous (and what you won't find anywhere else) is legislation mandating majority language rights in the workplace.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Canada's top tech company - is now CGI.

Until Blackberry gains 50 cents on their share price? A single company (which has most of its staff outside Quebec), is hardly evidence of Montreal being a tech centre.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
3a.) corporate taxes are lower in Quebec than Ontario.
http://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLUAs...FILE/Tax-Rates-Provincial-2013.pdf
http://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLUAs...ates-Corporate-Investment-2013.pdf

Maybe Ernst and Young didn't get the memo?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
You know very well Turkish, COPA, Emirates, and Qatar would either increase frequencies if the rights permitted so.

Connecting traffic. Mostly serving tourists and VFR. But that's not what Montreal wants right?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
5.) The google office in Montreal is pretty dynamic actually. I got to speak with the person who runs Google Canada and he speaks very highly of the "growing" Montreal office.

I'm sure it's a dynamic place. Like every Google office. However, I wasn't even comparing to Toronto (which is probably another marketing office). I was comparing to Waterloo. I doubt there's a single Google office in the country that approaches the work done in Waterloo. Look at the job postings. You can tell which one does engineering. And which one does marketing.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Once again there's no denying montreal is not Toronto. Montreal has a lot of against it also - taxes, language issues, corruption etc etc. But there's also a lot going for it. A very educated population, a strong base and diversified economy, and resource development will yield positive results as well. Montreal needs global links to global cities where the demand exists. In the case of Beijing, Tokyo, San Francisco, Istanbul, Beirut - the demand is there. No doubt Air Canada will begin to exploit some of this with its 787s effective 2014~2015.

You seem to imagine that I have this hate on for Montreal. Hardly. But I do believe that on the 3 items that determine a strong business environment, Montreal is lacking:

1) Friendly regulatory and taxation environment
2) Access to markets
3) Access to capital (human, financial, etc.)

It is for this reason, I'm wondering if there is actually demand between Montreal and say Tokyo. There certainly won't be enough demand on the VFR front for Tokyo or Beijing.

Toronto has lost something like 40-50 headquarters in the last 10-15 years just by industry consolidation alone.

We can't re-write history and I won't be the one to convince anybody that things are rosy in Montreal. Considering that Montreal used to be a finance and textile manufacturing economy, its has to transform itself into a knowledge based economy - cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh would be envious of the type of transformation Montreal was able to accomplish.

Back to the main topic - Air Canada has a fairly sizable (and profitable) international operation out of Montreal - and there's no regulatory commitment to keep longhaul flights here. For Calin to come out and say Beijing is a prospective destination implies that somebody internally did their due diligence on this file.

Montreal is no longer Canada's primary economic engine - but non-stops to Asia with 787s are key for the city's economic profile - and no doubt in my mind can be supported profitably. I deplore that many posters resort to antiquated rhetoric to justify that a.) this should not happen and b.) can't be done profitably for political/qualitative reasons.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-02-25 09:14:32 and read 9587 times.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):
"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Yes, Quebec has long had some flexibility in establishing its own immigration policies under an agreement with the federal government. A few months ago I recall a Quebec government mission conducting information sessions in GVA to encourage immigrants to Quebec from the French-speaking part of Switzerland.

   Quebec essentially selects its own immigrants under a 1977 agreement (Cullen-Couture) with the federal government. Immigration interviews for those applying to settle in Quebec are conducted by Quebec government officers at federal visa offices overseas (or at the Quebec mission, where there is one).

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-25 09:15:28 and read 9580 times.

For what it's worth, I find that the language brown shirts tend to go after mom and pop stores more than large businesses. They would never have the cojones to start going after major corporations. The loss of jobs would end the inferiority complex industry that the separatists have a lock on, in a heartbeat.

Quebecers need to realize that it's not laws that protect their culture. It's how they pass it on. Going after Italian restaurant for not calling pasta as pates, or going after some Chinese store where the owner barely speaks English (let alone French) will do nothing to protect Quebec's culture. The only thing that will protect Quebec's culture is economic vibrance.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: hohd
Posted 2013-02-25 09:50:43 and read 9360 times.

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 43):
As UK visitor to Montreal for the first time in the last few weeks, I was shocked that the city was so unfriendly to english speakers. I thought Canada was meant to be bi-lingual, and as a businessman at least, I met unhelpful french only signs everywhere and not much help from the local population in assisting me.

I had the opposite experience when I visited Montreal several years ago, may have changed now. In fact I was surprised that most people I met know English and spoke English if spoken to. In fact I did not hear much French at all and some of the restaurants had only English speaking staff (they spoke little or no French).

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-25 09:58:16 and read 9313 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 56):
Toronto has lost something like 40-50 headquarters in the last 10-15 years just by industry consolidation alone.

Don't take my posts as a defence of Toronto. Despite being a Torontonian by upbringing, I think the GTA is failing as a region. Government gridlock largely as a result of conflicting public opinion is killing us. The GTA is so horribly behind on key areas (like public transport) that I don't honestly know how it survives as a big city.

Quoting hohd (Reply 59):
I had the opposite experience when I visited Montreal several years ago, may have changed now. In fact I was surprised that most people I met know English and spoke English if spoken to. In fact I did not hear much French at all and some of the restaurants had only English speaking staff (they spoke little or no French).

Try asking the STM booth jockey for directions in English. Some are alright. But you'll get more than a reasonable share of STM employees who think it's their duty to educate visitors (they assume every English speaker is a visitor) on the importance of the French language. Frustrating for a tourist. Worse for a businessman.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-25 10:03:23 and read 9279 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 60):
Don't take my posts as a defence of Toronto. Despite being a Torontonian by upbringing, I think the GTA is failing as a region. Government gridlock largely as a result of conflicting public opinion is killing us. The GTA is so horribly behind on key areas (like public transport) that I don't honestly know how it survives as a big city.

Its not a criticism at all. I'm always inspired when I walk through Toronto (downtown especially). My issue how do we expect our economies to grow when we've become resource based economies, our export business is challenged with currency, our labour is uncompetitive, and we lack trade tool such as nonstop flights to major global cities in the world (this is the particular case for Montreal not Toronto). I'm impressed that Montreal and Toronto were able to become innovative economies and avoid the kind of decline that Detroit, Cleveland etc etc. had in the last 2 decades.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Noise
Posted 2013-02-25 10:06:29 and read 9228 times.

Quoting hohd (Reply 59):
I had the opposite experience when I visited Montreal several years ago, may have changed now. In fact I was surprised that most people I met know English and spoke English if spoken to. In fact I did not hear much French at all and some of the restaurants had only English speaking staff (they spoke little or no French).

It depends on which part of the city you're in. West of Saint Lawrence Boulevard you have a bilingual/traditionally English population where most people speak both languages with ease. East of Saint Denis Street is a different story.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: YYZatcboy
Posted 2013-02-25 10:36:12 and read 9024 times.

Quoting Noise (Reply 62):
It depends on which part of the city you're in. West of Saint Lawrence Boulevard you have a bilingual/traditionally English population where most people speak both languages with ease. East of Saint Denis Street is a different story.

It's interesting to me that the only time I have ever been ridiculed for my French is in Montreal. I lived for months doing courses in Quebec City and everyone was wonderful. I tried to speak French as much as possible, but if it was too bad people would switch to english no issues. One even thanked me for trying. I'd much rather go to YQB than YUL.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: pnwtraveler
Posted 2013-02-25 11:00:26 and read 8894 times.

I worked for a Montreal company for almost 10 years, was in the city almost once a month at times, and often spent the weekend there. I love Montreal. However, there is no business base comparable to Toronto. Montreal has done well in its sectors but doesn't have the mass of the financial core any more. In the business core you are fine speaking English. Although some restaurants will get decidedly cold when you speak English when you stray from immediately downtown.
Being more tourist orientated Quebec City is very tolerant of English despite being the capital city.

My accent is very good, better than my vocabulary recall, syntax and at times verb tenses. My accent is Parisienne and not Quebecois by any means. Speaking French often releases a torrent of Quebecois in reply that at times I can find hard to follow depending where in the Province the speaker is from. Occasionally I have had servers or store clerks refuse to speak English to me when I knew they could understand. I usually continue on until they say something derogatory in French and then I switch to French and the look of shock on their face is usually priceless. I have sat in business meetings where I have specifically asked prior to arriving, who speaks English. Even after being told all do, have had people only speak or respond in French. Again I love to hold the French in reserve hoping the person will be stupid enough to think they can say something I won't understand to a colleague. The majority of time I just speak French and try to keep up. Again though Parisienne French can come across as elitist. The biggest compliment is when people forget what language you speak and seamlessly switch back and forth between French and English.

While Quebec has recovered mostly from the two waves of exodus, it has left the city very different. The French populace tend for leisure to not widely travel in the US, or Western Canada even, and tend to go to the winter tropical destinations and Europe heavily. Travel patterns are very different from similar sized US cities and the rest of Canada.

The immigrant populations as well are as well due to Quebec's immigration emphasis, more frano-country centric with Arab, North and French Africa and other similar countries. Of course once in Canada immigrants can move around after if they wish. But source countries changes travel patterns distinctly. While the Toronto region has very large Chinese and other Asian and South Asian pockets (there are a couple very large Chinatown like areas), Montreal has one small one and has a fair number of Vietnamese due to the French connection. I don't think the latter is large enough for Viet Nam Airways or another carrier to have direct service.

Bottom line I don't think the market is under served. It fits the current travel patterns pretty well and demand is driving service. Once the requirement to have certain flights based or stop in Montreal was dropped, it is more fair and economical for carriers to chose where they want to have service.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-25 11:47:57 and read 8674 times.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 64):

Agreed - the city has taken a different shape. Once one goes east of St-Denis street, it becomes fairly unfriendly and very gritty with huge "nationalist" pockets. This represents less than 20% of the total island population - and these are the only 3 riding's that vote blue in Montreal/Laval combined.

Looking at immigration Quebec's website - we could see that China has become one of the top 3 source countries. There's been something like 20,000 Chinese immigrants within the last 4-5 years - and this trend doesn't show any sign of slowing down (for now!).

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: YULWinterSkies
Posted 2013-02-25 12:03:27 and read 8592 times.

YUL might not have every single non-stop that we want, but bottom line is that I would love to see US cities the size of YUL having just as much long-haul service, even if restricted to Europe and a few middle East destinations.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
SFO (only summer seasonal non stop service by AC)
SEA
SIN
MUC (daily non stop in summer, 5 weekly in winter by LH)
HEL
TLV
BLR
NRT
HKG
ICN

As a comparison, YYZ has non stop flights to 7 of these cities, vs YUL which only has 1 (not counting SFO since it's seasonal only)

Well sure but YYZ also is AC's mega-hub. That, and the wealthy economy of Toronto cannot hurt.

Quoting point2point (Reply 2):
YUL - U.S. West Coast definitely lacking and doable with nonstops

That used to exist but if it does not anymore, the answer is fairly simple: the route bypasses a lot of hubs (ORD, DEN, YYZ for AC-UA alone, and MSP, DTW, SLC for DL, etc etc) that can make for cheaper fares and shorter, less costly flights. YUL-west coast are long transcons, and as a result fairly expensive to run.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 61):
My issue how do we expect our economies to grow when we've become resource based economies, our export business is challenged with currency, our labour is uncompetitive, and we lack trade tool such as nonstop flights to major global cities in the world (this is the particular case for Montreal not Toronto).

Simply because Canada is not quite as business unfriendly as some want to call it. Montreal may be less so, but indeed one can talk of an overall economical miracle when compared to similarly old industry based cities such as Cleveland, Pittsburgh or Detroit.

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 43):
As UK visitor to Montreal for the first time in the last few weeks, I was shocked that the city was so unfriendly to english speakers.

Not sure what part of the city you were in, but if it's downtown then it's news to me... Though I don't live there anymore, downtown is essentially 50-50, people in stores, hotels, restaurant etc switch language on a minute basis as customers go by. Now, Montreal being a large "East Coast" city, it is not exactly "laid back". yes people might look stressed and stressing, much like New Yorkers or Torontonians. Cab drivers are among the world's most horrible people too.

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 43):
I thought Canada was meant to be bi-lingual, and as a businessman at least, I met unhelpful french only signs everywhere and not much help from the local population in assisting me.

Good luck with Canada being "bilingual" outside of Montreal, Ottawa & Gatineau, some small pockets of population in E and N Ontario, S Quebec, large parts of New Brunswick and signs written in airports!
True that Montrealers won't go out of their way if you look lost but don't come to them ask your way around, however, most will try to help if you ask them first, but it's something I would expect in any big city, esp. in Europe or N America.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: IAHWorldflyer
Posted 2013-02-25 12:24:05 and read 8574 times.

As a US citizen, I know I have a through the looking glass perspective, but I'll weigh in, since I was in Montreal for a week last year. I think for the development people in Montreal to desire more international non stop services is understandable, but you really need to sit back and look at the population and economy of the city. Montreal has what, a bit over 3.5 million people in the metropolitan area? That's large, but not huge. Boston has over 4 million and they have less intercontinental service than YUL. Like YUL, the service BOS has is mostly focused on Europe. To think that there would be a large daily demand for nonstop service to East or South Asia, or deep South America is not backed up by the facts. Then, as other have said, much of the finance industry in Canada has migrated to Toronto over the last 30 years. When I visited, I was struck by the vast amount of heavy, port-related industries that had abandoned their operations in Montreal in the last quarter century. Not that the US has not lost plenty of manufacturing capacity in the same time as well, but it was quite noticeable from looking around that a large chunk of the industrial base of Montreal and greater Quebec has slipped away. All this is to say that I don't see a large business community that is export/import focused in Montreal today that would fill up the J cabins of planes leaving YUL for all sorts of distant shores.
FWIW, I did not find very much language superiority by the Francophone Quebeqois I had contact with.My French is horrible I'm sure, but most people were very willing to converse in English with me. I'm sure in outlying neighborhoods, this might be different. I will say that there is better "alternate" English signage at transit centers like airports and train stations anywhere in Europe and even South America that there is in Montreal though.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-02-25 12:51:06 and read 8497 times.

Quoting Noise (Reply 62):
West of Saint Lawrence Boulevard

Lawrence?..... It's St. Laurent.... 
And boulevard is mentioned first, not last......   

(couldn't resist !)

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Noise
Posted 2013-02-25 13:07:38 and read 8441 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 68):
Lawrence?..... It's St. Laurent.... 
And boulevard is mentioned first, not last......   

(couldn't resist !)

Thenoflyzone

Not where I come friend, my friend  

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-25 13:14:03 and read 8438 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 58):
For what it's worth, I find that the language brown shirts tend to go after mom and pop stores more than large businesses. They would never have the cojones to start going after major corporations. The loss of jobs would end the inferiority complex industry that the separatists have a lock on, in a heartbeat.

What about Westjet need for French speaking F/A's as mandated by the Provincial Government? GE? I guess in Quebec they are just Mom and Pop operations as well.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Noise
Posted 2013-02-25 13:19:47 and read 8422 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 70):
What about Westjet need for French speaking F/A's as mandated by the Provincial Government? GE? I guess in Quebec they are just Mom and Pop operations as well.

Or what about the Government of Quebec going after BestBuy and Wal-Mart and forcing them to either change their names or adopt a French equivalent?

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-02-25 14:04:00 and read 8291 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 70):
What about Westjet need for French speaking F/A's as mandated by the Provincial Government?

Nothing whatsoever to do with the provincial government. Aviation is federally regulated, including the bilingual service requirements.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-02-25 14:25:48 and read 8239 times.

Quoting Noise (Reply 71):
Or what about the Government of Quebec going after BestBuy and Wal-Mart and forcing them to either change their names or adopt a French equivalent?

Probably not since they are trademark.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Noise
Posted 2013-02-25 14:54:44 and read 8180 times.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 73):
Probably not since they are trademark.

That hasn't stopped the Quebec government. Just goes to show the kind of hostility there is towards anything non-French in Quebec.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-25 16:44:15 and read 7948 times.

Yet another thread about the international connectivity of an airport amounting to little more than what AC wants to do with it. A sad commentary on Canadian aviation really, given the number of airlines out there, quite a few of which want to serve YUL.

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Reply 67):
Boston has over 4 million and they have less intercontinental service than YUL. Like YUL, the service BOS has is mostly focused on Europe. To think that there would be a large daily demand for nonstop service to East or South Asia, or deep South America is not backed up by the facts.

Montreal has a larger, more constant, influx of immigrants that BOS does. The demographics are quite differen (newer immigrants tend to have stronger links with their homelands and tend to travel back home more often - this dissipates over time). The South Asian community isn't very large, but the Lebanese community is fairly large (large enough for AC to want to fly to BEY, which got cancelled at the last minute because of the US Government). An airline like TK could easily make a go of YUL on the back of the Lebanese, North African and South Asian communities. That would never happen in Boston, which may be larger, but is home to people who have fewer links abroad. Size alone is not a good criteria for comparison; one has to take other factors into account. A first-generation immigrant pax who travels to India twice a year might contribute more to the viability of a route than a sixth-generation Bostoner who takes the odd flight to Europe every 3-4 years.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 61):
My issue how do we expect our economies to grow when we've become resource based economies, our export business is challenged with currency, our labour is uncompetitive, and we lack trade tool such as nonstop flights to major global cities in the world (this is the particular case for Montreal not Toronto).

Don't you work for AC? Countries with competitive (productive?) labor forces have a happy knack of having very liberal trade regimes, including in aviation. Do you really want that?

Quoting ytz (Reply 60):

Try asking the STM booth jockey for directions in English. Some are alright. But you'll get more than a reasonable share of STM employees who think it's their duty to educate visitors (they assume every English speaker is a visitor) on the importance of the French language. Frustrating for a tourist. Worse for a businessman.


What in the world are you on about? I lived in Montreal for many years, and I lived in Toronto before that. I know which city I would prefer to live in. Montreal is much better by a country mile. The only good thing about living in Ottawa is that I can visit Montreal on a whim. Toronto (or any city in Canada) has nothing on Montreal in summer (F1, Comedy Fest, Jazz Fest, the Francophone music fest) or winter (don't have to call out the army when it snows - no city does -20c like Montreal).

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 52):
It is Canada’s fault. There is a list of airlines that want to fly there like Copa, Emirates, Turkish, etc. However the Canadian government isn’t interested in those carriers that serve markets with low O/D, and have a high number of connecting passengers. With YUL not being a big enough market to demand long haul service to airports that aren’t major connecting hubs, it is left with no service.

Sure they want Tokyo, Singapore and Hong Kong, but they’ll have to settle for what they can get. Consumers appreciate choice, but government interference never helps the consumer.

Amen. It is self-inflicted. Very difficult to fly to more than one city when you start with 3 weekly frequencies. Thats why this keeps boiling down to what AC wants to do with YUL, as opposed to what kind of traffic YUL can attract.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
treal is still one of the world's major aerospace centers with Bombardier, Bell Textron (I believe all Bell civil helicopters are built at Mirabel), CAE (world's largest flight simulator manufacturer), Pratt & Whitney Canada including their new jet engine test facility at Mirabel where their 2 747SP engine testbeds are based. Mirabel is also the assembly site for the P&W geared turbofan engine model to be used on the Bombardier CSeries also being built at Mirabel along with the CRJ-700/900/1000.Montreal is also the headquarters of ICAO, the UN agency that deals with civil air transportation. It's also one of the two major offices of IATA (along with GVA), the world's major airline trade association and the location of the largest number of IATA staff.

Not to mention the likes of SNC Lavalin etc - everyone I know there seems to travel a lot upfront.

Quoting ytz (Reply 54):

Connecting traffic. Mostly serving tourists and VFR. But that's not what Montreal wants right?

I think Montreal will be quite happy with it. AC and the Government probably won't.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-02-25 16:51:19 and read 7922 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 54):
5 years is a long time. Last I checked, Ontario is scheduled to have a balanced budget before then. And while Quebec might have a slightly leg up on the fiscal balance, the infrastructure deficit is absolutely massive.

balanced budget within 5 years ? ya right..i'll believe it when i see it. The deficit of $11.9 billion is not getting solved anytime soon. Only one way to solve it. Tax hike. Ontarians should get ready for a tax hike in the not so distant future ! First it was Quebec, BC followed suit last week.....Ontario is next !

Posted 2013-02-25 16:53:01 and read 7890 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 54):
5 years is a long time. Last I checked, Ontario is scheduled to have a balanced budget before then. And while Quebec might have a slightly leg up on the fiscal balance, the infrastructure deficit is absolutely massive.

balanced budget within 5 years ? ya right..i'll believe it when i see it. The deficit of $11.9 billion is not getting solved anytime soon. Only one way to solve it. Tax hike. Ontarians should get ready for a tax hike in the not so distant future ! First it was Quebec, BC followed suit last week.....Ontario is next !

Posted 2013-02-25 17:10:58 and read 7834 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 76):
First it was Quebec, BC followed suit last week.....Ontario is next !

Off-topic, but I'd support a tax hike. I want balanced books more than a few extra bucks in my pocket.

On topic. We hear about how big some of Montreal's immigrant communities are. But are any large enough to sustain service beyond BEY, CDG and PAP.

And to El Pistolero, if we are talking about links to business and technology hubs, what does the size of immigrant communities have to do with it?

And while I agree that Montreal has a few more special events than Toronto, you missed my point entirely. There is no getting around the fact that they do interact with anglophones with due consideration to the chip on their shoulder. Some, not all. But I've come across enough rude STM booth jockeys to have my doubts about how welcoming they are. Both personally experienced and witnessed. And I've spent a year in Montreal and I can get by in French.

That said, I'd be loathe for anyone to judge Toronto based on the TTC's employees!

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ElPistolero
Posted 2013-02-25 17:32:07 and read 7795 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 78):
On topic. We hear about how big some of Montreal's immigrant communities are. But are any large enough to sustain service beyond BEY, CDG and PAP.

And to El Pistolero, if we are talking about links to business and technology hubs, what does the size of immigrant communities have to do with it?

That was a response to a comment about the amount of service YUL gets vis-a-vis BOS, given their similarity in size. I merely pointed out that the nature of the immigrant communities makes some routes, such as YUL-IST or YUL-DOH more viable than, say, BOS-DOH. Nothing more to it; just don't see the point in comparing YUL to similar sized cities, given how heterogenous YUL is in comparison to most tier 2 US cities.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Lutfi
Posted 2013-02-25 17:52:58 and read 7771 times.

Some years back, I was looking at a job (with IATA) in Montreal. Nice city, I can get by in french, etc. The deal breaker was education, my children could not go to English medium school, unless privately educated. Not to say I would have got the job anyway, but I withdrew my application after first interview

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-02-25 20:17:46 and read 7596 times.

Quoting Lutfi (Reply 80):
Some years back, I was looking at a job (with IATA) in Montreal. Nice city, I can get by in french, etc. The deal breaker was education, my children could not go to English medium school, unless privately educated. Not to say I would have got the job anyway, but I withdrew my application after first interview
http://www.cqsb.qc.ca/myscriptorweb/scripto.asp?resultat=456113

Look at point # 8. Couldn't you have been eligible on a temporary work authorization?

Also, correct me if i am wrong here, but aren't people who work for ICAO or IATA in Montreal exempt from paying taxes on their income?

If that is the case, i am sure you could have afforded to send you kids to private school !

Thenoflyzone

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Lutfi
Posted 2013-02-25 21:28:58 and read 7492 times.

ICAO yes, IATA no. And position was permanent, not temporary... i.e I would have become an immigrant, rather than an expat

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-02-25 21:43:01 and read 7476 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Really? Is this fact? Did you come up with this is your long-winded anti-Quebec tirade?

1.) Go through the FP500, over 100 of Canada's top companies are in Montreal or Quebec. The unemployment rate and employment rate are either equal or better than Ontario - and if Ontario keeps on it's current path it's debt to gdp ratio will pass Quebec within 5 years. It's really unfair to compare apples and oranges with Alberta. If Ontario and Quebec had tar sand explorations capabilities - the comparison becomes fair.

2.) do you expect people in Japan, Italy, Germany to speak english at the office? What about China, France? Whether you agree or not, it's franco-Quebeckers right to speak french and to work in a french environment which conforms to the majority of the population. Do I think that Quebec goes overboard and the OQLF is a big farce - of course. But to be so ethnocentric and not appreciate the cultural relativity of Quebec is just a lack of respect for people, which for all intents and purposes share a different culture than mainstream anglo-Canadian culture. These people have the right to be respected. Unfortunately your analysis invokes that they should not have this right.
Montreal remains the most bilingual city on the continent - and essentially all major corporations in Montreal do global business in english.


3.) Canada's top tech company - is now CGI. The HQ is in Montreal (I recall RIM being there not long ago).

3a.) corporate taxes are lower in Quebec than Ontario.

4.) Montreal is not Toronto.. that ship sailed long ago. There's got to be something in to the city if Air Canada is keen of launching Asia/Pacific and Middle East services from Montreal. Even Calin will be the first to admit that there's appreciable demand for Asia/Pacific out of Montreal. If Air Canada could source commercially viable slots, they would launch Montreal-Beijing tomorrow. Do we also need to name the list of carriers wanting to fly to YUL if bilateral rights permitted it. You know very well Turkish, COPA, Emirates, and Qatar would either increase frequencies if the rights permitted so. I will never advocate for opening bilaterals to these places - but Montreal remains an interesting market for airlines (albeit not to the same extent as Toronto no doubt)

5.) The google office in Montreal is pretty dynamic actually. I got to speak with the person who runs Google Canada and he speaks very highly of the "growing" Montreal office.


Once again there's no denying montreal is not Toronto. Montreal has a lot of against it also - taxes, language issues, corruption etc etc. But there's also a lot going for it. A very educated population, a strong base and diversified economy, and resource development will yield positive results as well. Montreal needs global links to global cities where the demand exists. In the case of Beijing, Tokyo, San Francisco, Istanbul, Beirut - the demand is there. No doubt Air Canada will begin to exploit some of this with its 787s effective 2014~2015.

= Haha. Perhaps, you should work for YUL ASD instead  . I don't think the question is whether YUL is a big city. It is a matter of YUL being in decline. Besides, why doesn't your own airline (and you are pretty close to numbers) increase capacity ex-YUL? From what I follow of Canadian aviation, a lot of your intercontinental increases have focussed on YYZ.

I recently visited IATA and found the entire YUL scene to be extremely inward looking. No wonder talented people don't want to move there.

Quoting ARN" class="quote" target="_blank">ARN (Reply 28):
3. The terminal layout of ARN that until now has prevented domestic flights to be interlined fully with international flights.

= Can you please elaborate?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 46):
Really unfortunate you had such a bad experience. The majority of people I speak who visit the city typically have positive experiences with customer service, tourism related inquiries etc.

= Seriously? I consider myself fairly well traveled and speak French fluently. While I did not have "bad experiences", I found I got much better service speaking French - and in general, the city not being friendly whatsoever towards a non-French speaker. A shame really in 2013, and no wonder why talent does not flock to the city.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 46):
Look we've got isolated instances of bad service and language tensions.. but lonely plant put is in the top 10 ciites of 2013

= You are using Lonely Planet as a data source? Things must be bad  .

Quoting flyyul (Reply 30):
YYZ717 is not an airline expert   .. there are however certain economies of scale by building up a critical mass in YYZ which AC is currently undertaking as we speak.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
Neither is FLYYUL. Not even close. I've actually worked in the industry longer (albeit not now). Happy to compare resumes, degrees, work experience, pant size, etc. anytime  

= Guys, whats with the personal attacks?

Saludos,
Alex

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: aeroblogger
Posted 2013-02-25 21:49:33 and read 7465 times.

Time to retitle the thread:
"YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City $300M, Saving Airlines $600M"  

YUL can wish for whatever services it wants, but if it's unprofitable for the airline, it's not going to happen

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: PITrules
Posted 2013-02-25 22:01:01 and read 7456 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 56):
Considering that Montreal used to be a finance and textile manufacturing economy, its has to transform itself into a knowledge based economy - cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh would be envious of the type of transformation Montreal was able to accomplish.
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 66):
Montreal may be less so, but indeed one can talk of an overall economical miracle when compared to similarly old industry based cities such as Cleveland, Pittsburgh or Detroit.

Probably correct wrt Detroit and I won't speak for Cleveland, but totally false statement in the case of Pittsburgh. Especially when discussing a knowledge based economy based on "Eds and Meds".

[Edited 2013-02-25 22:03:36]

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-25 22:27:31 and read 7427 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 83):
= Haha. Perhaps, you should work for YUL ASD instead  . I don't think the question is whether YUL is a big city. It is a matter of YUL being in decline. Besides, why doesn't your own airline (and you are pretty close to numbers) increase capacity ex-YUL? From what I follow of Canadian aviation, a lot of your intercontinental increases have focussed on YYZ.

I recently visited IATA and found the entire YUL scene to be extremely inward looking. No wonder talented people don't want to move there.

"My airline" has. Since 2007 - AC has added service to Brussels, Geneva, Rome. Athens - put 777 on FRA/CDG which weren't there previously. When Air Canada was at Mirabel up until 1997 - it only served London and Paris from Montreal. So there's been meaningful growth in true slow and steady Montreal fashion. However - let's not deny Toronto is the major focal point for Air Canada and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

The debate on this thread is not about Montreal's hospitality and tourism numbers - and the so-called bad rap it gets from tourists like Abresolojos. How can Montreal co-exist (rather complement) Toronto for Air Canada is such a way that minimizes traffic cannabilization. The reason why the business community and the airport authority are making noise, is the fact the traffic figures are healthy enough to support an Asian service. Precisely why Calin came out and suggested that Beijing is a top priority for AC to serve ex. YUL if commercially feasible slots are to be obtained at congested Beijing Capital.

I don't think anybody here is under any false illusion that Montreal is this great economic superpower ready to rival Toronto. However I continue to stress that the economy is pretty solid (vis a vis other Western countries) and Montreal's economic diversification of aerospace, natural resource development, engineering, tech, finance, life sciences, video gaming, renewable energy, international org's makes it more ready to compete in tomorrow's economy. However the PQ puts this hugely at risk - no doubt. I continue to believe that AC has a bright future in YUL alongside a much larger global hub in YYZ.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-02-25 22:58:22 and read 7343 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 86):
How can Montreal co-exist (rather complement) Toronto for Air Canada is such a way that minimizes traffic cannabilization.

How can? You're asking the wrong question. Why DOES it need to co-exist? There is a strong network case to be made for shuttering much of the YUL hub for flights westbound and routing thru YYZ. Just like ÙS did with LAS and PIT, NW did with MKE, DL with MEM. All these mini-hub-ettes were cannibalising and weakening the networks and hubs at PHX, PHL, MSP and ATL respectively. By the same argument, the YUL mini-hub-ette should be wound down.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 86):
I continue to believe that AC has a bright future in YUL alongside a much larger global hub in YYZ.

Of course you do, its your hometown and livelihood, hence emotion is involved. But in the cold light of day, it's hard to justify an airline as small as AC having a weak YUL hub just 300 km from YYZ. It duplicates and weakens the entire eastern NA network.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 83):
Quoting flyyul (Reply 30):
YYZ717 is not an airline expert .. there are however certain economies of scale by building up a critical mass in YYZ which AC is currently undertaking as we speak.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
Neither is FLYYUL. Not even close. I've actually worked in the industry longer (albeit not now). Happy to compare resumes, degrees, work experience, pant size, etc. anytime

= Guys, whats with the personal attacks?

Do you see the smiley faces. Mark and I have known each other for years and met several times. We actually get along quite well in person.  

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-26 00:24:23 and read 7272 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 83):
I consider myself fairly well traveled and speak French fluently. While I did not have "bad experiences", I found I got much better service speaking French - and in general, the city not being friendly whatsoever towards a non-French speaker.

I've been to Montreal a couple of times, and my experience cannot be more different. I speak reasonable French (not perfect), and I tried to speak French everywhere. However, the most of my family doesn't speak French, while we all speak English. I did not see any hint of a "better service" when speaking French. And I did find the people perfectly accommodating and friendly to the English speakers in our group. Laws may be what they are, but I did not see any issue with the people. Now, of course, we were considered with the language of the land, and we did not demand (as if it were our birth right) to be spoken exclusively in English...

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: airsmiles
Posted 2013-02-26 04:49:40 and read 7078 times.

Just come back to this thread and was surprised at the number of responses. Just to fill in some points raised:-

I went to various places in Montreal all over and couldn't really say any area was welcoming as such. I do have very basic french skills that work to an extent in France, so wasn't expecting 100% responses in english. Whenever I tried my french in Montreal though, I was treated with indifference and/or difficulty in understanding, A work colleague, who is actually French, also has some difficulty with a few native french speakers in Montreal! Is Quebec french slightly different from France french?

From my perspective as a businessman though, I just found the whole language issue and under-current in Montreal off-putting. It was quite obvious to a first-timer that there was antagonism at ground roots level. For me, it's just a lot simpler and cheaper to do business in an english-speaking area (wherever in the world). Also, the political situation in Quebec adds tension and risk to any investment. I can open an office in Japan, Germany and a lot of other places knowing english is accepted as a second language and many people in those countries speak it. That's just not true in Montreal and assume wider Quebec. Hence, Toronto became the preferred choice of location.

As I said in my earlier post, Montreal can't expect the international air links until it truly opens its arms to the world.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: caribb
Posted 2013-02-26 05:11:16 and read 7059 times.

My take on this an a long time Montrealer. I haven't read all the posts in the threat but I can presume the usual people came in with their anti-Quebec, anti-French points of view and their usual opponents came back with the nothing is ever wrong with Quebec perspective.. Hopefully the rest of you got some good points on the table without being attacked. LOL.

that being said.. YUL is probably fully served to the best of its ability at the moment. Airlines evaluate potential routes world wide all the time and if any route supporting large numbers of people were not fully operating or in the planning stages out of Montreal (or anywhere) right now someone is not doing their job.. and more than somneone, at least two groups of people.. those in Canada and those in the country of the potential destination. Once the numbers are there a plane will likely be on it, and if not then the economics behind the route still demand a connection for some reason (strategy, lack of aircraft etc). The fact we are missing routes just doesn't wash with me. Out existing route network reflects who comes and goes here pretty well.

Looking at Asia, very few cities in eastern North America have direct links to eastern Asia. Boston probably being the smalest. Boston has easily two or three times Montreal's passenger volume and a larger domestic network eminating from it. It's just not going to happen here yet. Asian routes are better served from large hubs which we are not. It will eventually happen though when the timing is right. La Presse however should better inform itself first before trying to misinform its readers.

Reading the last few posts.. for me as an English person in Montreal who speaks french well enough to get buy but not perfectly... people are always friendly if you are friendly to them. I generally don't encounter people who give me a hard time because I'm English although I have in the past during difficult political times. I will say though, if I'm with French friends or colleagues at for instance a restaurant the service has been sizeably more chatty than if I'm alone or with English friends and colleagues.. that might be just due to their comfort zone. It's not always easy to talk freely and easily in another language. People hold back. Plus the way people express themselves can sometimes be easily misinterprested. I deal with Dutch people everyday and I see the same thing. Both the French & Dutch sometimes come off as abrupt but I know the Quebeckers are not meaning it to be, it's just because of the way their English is being spoken and expressed. I presume it's the same for the Dutch, at least it better be LOL.. people unaware of these nuances can easily misinterpret them.. and yes, sometimes despite it all it can be deliberate. there are idiots in every culture. You gotta take the good with the bad.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-26 05:32:12 and read 7066 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 87):
How can? You're asking the wrong question. Why DOES it need to co-exist? There is a strong network case to be made for shuttering much of the YUL hub for flights westbound and routing thru YYZ. Just like ÙS did with LAS and PIT, NW did with MKE, DL with MEM. All these mini-hub-ettes were cannibalising and weakening the networks and hubs at PHX, PHL, MSP and ATL respectively. By the same argument, the YUL mini-hub-ette should be wound down.

Neil - you're assuming YUL/YYZ play the same network role which they don't. You're right, YUL is a "boutique hub-ette" and it should stay that way differentiating destinations AC can access due to a different demographic profile than YYZ. Hence why AC took risks on markets like BRU/GVA - and the gamble most certainly paid off. When two hubs are competing for traffic in thin markets- this is where cannibilization occurs.

I appreciate you don't buy the argument - but I assure you we're not being financially irresponsible  

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-26 05:36:03 and read 7054 times.

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 89):
rom my perspective as a businessman though, I just found the whole language issue and under-current in Montreal off-putting. It was quite obvious to a first-timer that there was antagonism at ground roots level. For me, it's just a lot simpler and cheaper to do business in an english-speaking area (wherever in the world). Also, the political situation in Quebec adds tension and risk to any investment. I can open an office in Japan, Germany and a lot of other places knowing english is accepted as a second language and many people in those countries speak it. That's just not true in Montreal and assume wider Quebec. Hence, Toronto became the preferred choice of location.

As I said in my earlier post, Montreal can't expect the international air links until it truly opens its arms to the world.

Certainly good points. Ironically in the last year, there's been a big wave of UK-Montreal business deals. (i.e. CGI buying Logica, SNC setting up a London division, Genivar buying WSP UK, and now Framestore setting up in Montreal). Hopefully we can all get along  

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-02-26 06:23:01 and read 6960 times.

Quoting caribb (Reply 90):
La Presse however should better inform itself first before trying to misinform its readers.

I was thinking... only 300 million?

Think of the billions they would lose if they actually paid for these flights to occur!!

They are getting a bargain!

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Quantos
Posted 2013-02-26 07:11:20 and read 6901 times.

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 89):
ust come back to this thread and was surprised at the number of responses. Just to fill in some points raised:-

I went to various places in Montreal all over and couldn't really say any area was welcoming as such. I do have very basic French skills that work to an extent in France, so wasn't expecting 100% responses in English. Whenever I tried my French in Montreal though, I was treated with indifference and/or difficulty in understanding, A work colleague, who is actually French, also has some difficulty with a few native French speakers in Montreal! Is Quebec French slightly different from France French?

From my perspective as a businessman though, I just found the whole language issue and under-current in Montreal off-putting. It was quite obvious to a first-timer that there was antagonism at ground roots level. For me, it's just a lot simpler and cheaper to do business in an English-speaking area (wherever in the world). Also, the political situation in Quebec adds tension and risk to any investment. I can open an office in Japan, Germany and a lot of other places knowing English is accepted as a second language and many people in those countries speak it. That's just not true in Montreal and assume wider Quebec. Hence, Toronto became the preferred choice of location.

As I said in my earlier post, Montreal can't expect the international air links until it truly opens its arms to the world.

Depending on the area of Montreal, it might not be surprising that people would have trouble understanding a person from France. Quebec French is very different from France French. The accent is not alike; sayings and expressions used are very different as well. That said, if a native Quebec French speaker is completely unable to understand a France French speaker, there's a problem somewhere. It's not THAT hard.

Bilingual service in Montreal is both a matter of location and luck. Some areas are very much bilingual (Downtown, West-Island, NDG, etc.) and should provide bilingual (and sometimes English-first) service. Then again, even if you're in one of those areas, it's entirely possible that you are unlucky and end up with either a person that speaks French only (quite rare in Montreal), or more likely a person that is bilingual, but will refuse to speak English by principle. It's completely stupid, yes, but some people are like that over here  

Now, when it comes to large corporations, services and intra-corporation communications are very easy to perform in english, simply because these corporations have a lot of employees whose first language is not french, or whose business is performed mostly in english. Bombardier, for instance, has a special derogation to bill 101 which allows it to perform activities in english, as a lot of employees come over to Montreal from other locations (Belfast, Toronto and Wichita mainly) and do not speak an ounce of french. CGI is pretty much the same (I actually work there and support Bombardier Aerospace). You'd be hard pressed to find someone in my office who doesn't speak english.

Now, if you were to leave Montreal proper, it's more likely to find uniligual French people. With the exception of the West-Island, most suburbs are predominantly French. However, it would again be down to bad luck to find someone who would be unwilling to speak English to you, as most people are bilingual. English is taught in school as the primary second language, and a very large majority of young people speak English. Truly unilingual French people do remain, but they tend to be older people who did not learn the language in school, and simply cannot be bothered. Regions further away from Montreal also tend to have higher rates of uniligual French population.

I think the main problem with Montreal is not its citizens, but the provincial government (especially now the PQ has been elected). Most people do speak both languages, and most people will happily switch to English if needed, but there remains a small part of the population who will refuse to do so. The roots of this behaviour are actually understandable, as French was shunned quite heavily in the past. Personally, I think it's a very exaggerated behaviour. I love both languages, and would prefer Quebec to be 100% bilingual; that would be quite awesome! You're welcome to speak to me in French or English, or even Frenglish (broken mess of both languages!)

Edit: Also, this is quite off-topic, sorry! 

[Edited 2013-02-26 07:12:37]

[Edited 2013-02-26 07:17:15]

[Edited 2013-02-26 07:18:37]

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: yultopei
Posted 2013-02-26 10:04:28 and read 6754 times.

Is incredible the number of YUL bashing people here...

I'm living in Montreal all my life, i live in many other country for period of time and i can said you that is not more easy in orthers places. I speak native french and learn english at school, my english is not perfect but permit me to travel around the world, having conversation with people and express myself.

I have one thing to said... is not Quebec that is suppose to be bilingual. CANADA is a country bilingual (english/french)
Why when i go Toronto... IS IMPOSSIBLE to get service in french ??????? here in Montreal, every where is service in english without any hesitation.

So please to bashing our french culture that is something important for us.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Noise
Posted 2013-02-26 10:49:22 and read 6694 times.

Quoting yultopei (Reply 95):
here in Montreal, every where is service in english without any hesitation.

Sorry buddy but that simply isn't true. As an English-speaking Montrealer, I have in the past been refused service in English and have been spoken to only in French, even when I would, as a client, continue in English. It doesn't happen often, but it happens.

Any ways, back to the topic of conversation...

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: pnwtraveler
Posted 2013-02-26 10:53:27 and read 6659 times.

Montreal has an atmosphere, joie de vivre (lifestyle of enjoyment of life) and a European-like culture that just isn't matched anywhere else in North America. I love the city, have tons of favorite restaurants, love the culture, and miss visiting there if I don't get there every few months. My points though stand on the difficulties with language and doing business. That isn't Quebec or culture bashing, it is a commentary on attitude and lack of understanding how to make business friendly regulations and attract investment.

I would be interested to see a list of airlines that have publically stated they want to fly into YUL and have been denied. Different than those who want to add service at some point in the future. Turkish Airlines has YUL on its future list and I was told cannot start service immediately even if it was approved now.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: skiaplg
Posted 2013-02-26 11:05:17 and read 6628 times.

In my personal experience, as French, I have been to Quebec and Montreal an innumerable amount of times, and know at least 10-15 english speakers who live/study in Montreal, and not one of them has ever complained about people not wanting to serve them in English, although most have learnt a passable amount of French. I've even received service in English while speaking French. Just as I don't ask for service in French when I'm in the UK, Toronto, USA, I don't expect service in English when in Quebec, although it is almost always available.

In my opinion, Air Canada is not the right airline to expand in Quebec - it has its own large intercontinental hub in YYZ, and frankly, it's not necessary nor economical for it to serve all the same cities from YYZ as YUL. However, because of Canadian restrictions on flights to Canada, I believe that there is a market for more airlines to serve YUL, they just aren't allowed to (yet). It's hard to completely ignore YUL's significance - despite the 70s, it's still economically significant. I think it's quite clear that there are airlines (Turkish, Emirates) that would be willing and happy to serve Montreal, and if they want to serve YUL, it's because they believe there is a market there for them.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: 2travel2know2
Posted 2013-02-26 11:12:08 and read 6600 times.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 97):
I would be interested to see a list of airlines that have publically stated they want to fly into YUL and have been denied.

If Canada grants CM extra frequencies to Canada and those can't be used to YYZ, CM will grab them immediately, no question asked and try YUL.
And that'd not only be due to YUL O/D demand from PTY hub but because YYC and YVR would have to be one-stop B737-800/700 flights.
The number of passengers wishing to avoid U.S. airports when flying between Canada and Latin America is just amazing.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: pnwtraveler
Posted 2013-02-26 11:14:57 and read 6601 times.

Quoting skiaplg (Reply 98):
In my personal experience, as French, I have been to Quebec and Montreal an innumerable amount of times, and know at least 10-15 english speakers who live/study in Montreal, and not one of them has ever complained about people not wanting to serve them in English, although most have learnt a passable amount of French. I've even received service in English while speaking French. Just as I don't ask for service in French when I'm in the UK, Toronto, USA, I don't expect service in English when in Quebec, although it is almost always available.

Anyone who has a foreign accent and tries French gets a bit of a different experience than a neutral Canadian or US accent. Someone with a Texas accent also included   as foreign haha. I have a 6'4" Texas colleaque to almost stops traffic when he is Montreal. People come up to him to talk just to hear his accent because it is unusual in Montreal and no one complains or expects him to speak anything but English.

Montreal has 13 International Airlines now, how many more does a city of similar size expect? Other than BEY which seems to have its own set of complications, what markets have enough volume to warrant service. Given Cathay's broad reach you would think they would consider Montreal if they thought volume was there to Hong Kong.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-26 11:19:10 and read 6607 times.

Quoting skiaplg (Reply 98):
In my opinion, Air Canada is not the right airline to expand in Quebec - it has its own large intercontinental hub in YYZ, and frankly, it's not necessary nor economical for it to serve all the same cities from YYZ as YUL. However, because of Canadian restrictions on flights to Canada, I believe that there is a market for more airlines to serve YUL, they just aren't allowed to (yet). It's hard to completely ignore YUL's significance - despite the 70s, it's still economically significant. I think it's quite clear that there are airlines (Turkish, Emirates) that would be willing and happy to serve Montreal, and if they want to serve YUL, it's because they believe there is a market there for them

I strongly believe that Montreal as a hub would be better served being aligned with Air Canada. Turkish/Emirates/COPA are all significant global carriers, but they don't contribute to YUL's desire to be a hub (in fact they it make it worse by taking pax through a 6th freedom point).

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-02-26 11:24:58 and read 6593 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 86):
"My airline" has. Since 2007 - AC has added service to Brussels, Geneva, Rome. Athens - put 777 on FRA/CDG which weren't there previously. When Air Canada was at Mirabel up until 1997 - it only served London and Paris from Montreal. So there's been meaningful growth in true slow and steady Montreal fashion. However - let's not deny Toronto is the major focal point for Air Canada and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

= Good. And I agree with you. I am glad you have recognized that YUL is secondary to YYZ.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 86):
The debate on this thread is not about Montreal's hospitality and tourism numbers - and the so-called bad rap it gets from tourists like Abresolojos.

= Well, it is clear that I am not the only one. Forget the bad rep as a "tourist", it is partly irrelevant. I am more concerned with any business that focusses on needing French. It takes away from being globally competitive. I don't see the same argument holding in YVR for example.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 86):
How can Montreal co-exist (rather complement) Toronto for Air Canada is such a way that minimizes traffic cannabilization. The reason why the business community and the airport authority are making noise, is the fact the traffic figures are healthy enough to support an Asian service. Precisely why Calin came out and suggested that Beijing is a top priority for AC to serve ex. YUL if commercially feasible slots are to be obtained at congested Beijing Capital.

= Do you really think the yields are there in YULPEK? Moreover, your current YYZPEK flight is close to 30% YUL traffic. You really don't think there will be diversion?

Quoting flyyul (Reply 86):
I don't think anybody here is under any false illusion that Montreal is this great economic superpower ready to rival Toronto. However I continue to stress that the economy is pretty solid (vis a vis other Western countries) and Montreal's economic diversification of aerospace, natural resource development, engineering, tech, finance, life sciences, video gaming, renewable energy, international org's makes it more ready to compete in tomorrow's economy. However the PQ puts this hugely at risk - no doubt. I continue to believe that AC has a bright future in YUL alongside a much larger global hub in YYZ.

= It will be interesting to see how bright the future is given Quebec continues to be a laggard vs. YYZ, YYC, YVR ... in terms of major cities.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 87):
How can? You're asking the wrong question. Why DOES it need to co-exist? There is a strong network case to be made for shuttering much of the YUL hub for flights westbound and routing thru YYZ. Just like ÙS did with LAS and PIT, NW did with MKE, DL with MEM. All these mini-hub-ettes were cannibalising and weakening the networks and hubs at PHX, PHL, MSP and ATL respectively. By the same argument, the YUL mini-hub-ette should be wound down.

= This is exactly the point I am saying. What is the point of a hub at YUL? Besides, why not create some new blood and thoughts in network planning? There is more to network planning that what Mr. B thinks  .

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 87):
Do you see the smiley faces. Mark and I have known each other for years and met several times. We actually get along quite well in person.  

= I am sure you do. I do think we should leave personal names behind on A.Net though. People have got into problems with that in the past ...

Saludos,
Alex

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: NorthStarDC4M
Posted 2013-02-26 11:25:17 and read 6607 times.

Quoting yultopei (Reply 95):
Why when i go Toronto... IS IMPOSSIBLE to get service in french ??????? here in Montreal, every where is service in english without any hesitation.

Ontario isn't bilingual... and Toronto certainly isn't, and that's coming from a french speaking Torontonian...
Getting french speakers in Ontario is a more expensive proposition, so unless you really really need to you aren't going to pay extra for them. You are just as likely to need Mandarin or Punjabi as French working in a service position in Toronto. It's not a matter of french bashing it's just the way it is.

And in my experience it is VERY hit and miss with English service in Montreal. I once got told off by a french speaking gas station attendant for speaking english on my cell phone (not to them), in La Salle. It's not "without hesitation" even at the best of times unless it is an openly English pub or club either in my experience. I've even had trouble at larger stores in downtown Montreal having to translate for my wife with french only employees.

But to the original post...
Montreal will never have non-stop year round service to all those destinations... Even Toronto won't... Canada-Singapore is a limited market at best. If there was a market YUL-SFO for year round service I doubt AC would not fly it...

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-26 11:51:42 and read 6559 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 102):
= Do you really think the yields are there in YULPEK? Moreover, your current YYZPEK flight is close to 30% YUL traffic. You really don't think there will be diversion?

You don't have to take my word for it. The CEO mentioned it in public - clearly internally the team has done their homework

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 102):
= Good. And I agree with you. I am glad you have recognized that YUL is secondary to YYZ.

Montreal is very secondary to Toronto there's no question - and will continue to be so.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 102):
= It will be interesting to see how bright the future is given Quebec continues to be a laggard vs. YYZ, YYC, YVR ... in terms of major cities.

I happen to think (barring a PQ nightmare) that the future is relatively bright given the economic sectors that are being invested in. I also happen to believe that the Eastern Canadian economy is much more diversified and less prone to downside risk like Calgary/Edmonton are. Also recall Quebec is only scratching the surface of the natural resources available in the province (but things are always very slow in Quebec so who knows how long this could take).

This being said, I don't ever think that Quebec will be able to rival Ontario in terms of business and economic development. That ship sailed a long time ago, it ain't coming back.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 102):
= This is exactly the point I am saying. What is the point of a hub at YUL? Besides, why not create some new blood and thoughts in network planning? There is more to network planning that what Mr. B thinks .

As long as it's incrementally profitable for AC to develop YUL as a secondary "hub-ette" - then there's a case for AC to invest. I think the fact that AC has a number of assets in YUL flying to destinations that don't necessarily cannibalize YYZ speaks to this strategy. And if there's money to be made - why not invest where it makes economic sense.

To compare YUL with MEM/CVG is a bit low-balling don't you think? There's clearly an international market - and money to be made (albeit not to the same extent as YYZ). MEM can't even attract 1 international airline - I think YUL has something like 13 and a number interested in providing further service.


I'm not sure why YUL discussions become a YUL vs. YYZ debate. There's nothing to debate, Toronto is Canada's prime economic powerhouse and Canada's primary global gateway. However in the shadows of this beast is Montreal which is a fairly robust international market where there's profit to be made. Nothing wrong with this...

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-02-26 12:10:48 and read 6510 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 104):
You don't have to take my word for it. The CEO mentioned it in public - clearly internally the team has done their homework
Quoting flyyul (Reply 104):
As long as it's incrementally profitable for AC to develop YUL as a secondary "hub-ette" - then there's a case for AC to invest. I think the fact that AC has a number of assets in YUL flying to destinations that don't necessarily cannibalize YYZ speaks to this strategy. And if there's money to be made - why not invest where it makes economic sense.

= Well, I take things from a CEO who has failed to make serious turn arounds with a grain of salt. Of course, if there is money to be made, go for it. I just don't see it being reflected in AC's recent financials  .

Saludos,
Alex

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-26 12:15:20 and read 6525 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 105):
= Well, I take things from a CEO who has failed to make serious turn arounds with a grain of salt. Of course, if there is money to be made, go for it. I just don't see it being reflected in AC's recent financials .

Saludos,
Alex

I happen to disagree with this. Under this CEO - Air Canada has been able to improve its liquidity position by nearly 100% and manage to squeak several profitable years. The airline is re-orienting itself into an international powerhouse vs. a domestic player. We aren't out of the woods - but I believe AC is on the correct course for sustainable profitability but I digress. Very much still a work in progress...

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-02-26 12:31:11 and read 6457 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 106):
We aren't out of the woods - but I believe AC is on the correct course for sustainable profitability but I digress.

It will never be out of the woods as long as its revenues are essentially privatized and costs driven by the political winds in Ottawa.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 97):
That isn't Quebec or culture bashing, it is a commentary on attitude and lack of understanding how to make business friendly regulations and attract investment

   If someone thinks it's worth $300MM, AC would be more than willing to accept some or all of that money to try any route.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-27 10:01:55 and read 6035 times.

Quoting yultopei (Reply 95):
CANADA is a country bilingual (english/french)

Wrong.

The Constitution defines the Government of Canada as bilingual. Not the country of Canada.

And you can get service from the government in French or English.

No where have I seen any part of Ontario legally designated as bilingual, even though the province does provide some services in French in francophone dominated areas like parts of Eastern and Northern Ontario.

It is myths like this that fuel separatism in Quebec. A perpetual misunderstanding of what was actually promised and written into the constitution fuelling a sense of grievance and victimhood.

No issues with Quebec being unilingual anglophone. What most people take umbrage to is the imposition of language laws in the private sphere (like on businesses). Ontario does not force ethnic businesses to operate in English. Why does Quebec have to force companies to operate in French? Shouldn't the provision of government services in the promised languages be enough?

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-27 10:53:41 and read 5974 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 72):
Nothing whatsoever to do with the provincial government. Aviation is federally regulated, including the bilingual service requirements.

Just because it is federal, does not mean they have both French and English. I worked for a federally regulated company and I don't have to speak English and French. In fact I have traveled with that company into Quebec, and we have not had any problems with the federal government, only the Quebec government so, we decided that it was not worth trying to do business in Quebec.

Quoting ytz (Reply 60):
Try asking the STM booth jockey for directions in English. Some are alright. But you'll get more than a reasonable share of STM employees who think it's their duty to educate visitors (they assume every English speaker is a visitor) on the importance of the French language. Frustrating for a tourist. Worse for a businessman.

The speak English. That is a myth. I have never had any trouble with them speaking English. They don't speak English as well as they speak French, well they don't really speak french they have their own dialect that no French person from France could even understand.

Quoting Noise (Reply 71):
r what about the Government of Quebec going after BestBuy and Wal-Mart and forcing them to either change their names or adopt a French equivalent?

BestBuy Canada is based in Quebec and are owned by Future Shop which is a Quebec company as well. Walmart is a TM which means that they are known by that name alone and not by their Quebec language equivalent.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 88):
I've been to Montreal a couple of times, and my experience cannot be more different. I speak reasonable French (not perfect), and I tried to speak French everywhere. However, the most of my family doesn't speak French, while we all speak English. I did not see any hint of a "better service" when speaking French. And I did find the people perfectly accommodating and friendly to the English speakers in our group. Laws may be what they are, but I did not see any issue with the people. Now, of course, we were considered with the language of the land, and we did not demand (as if it were our birth right) to be spoken exclusively in English...

I have never had a problem in Quebec myself with language as they all speak some English and I don't speak or try to speak French or what ever it is they speak in Quebec. Everyone I deal with always spoke English, it is only the small minority of separatists that are insane that the Quebec electorate keep electing that make this an issue.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-02-27 11:03:12 and read 5969 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 109):
I have never had a problem in Quebec myself with language as they all speak some English and I don't speak or try to speak French or what ever it is they speak in Quebec. Everyone I deal with always spoke English, it is only the small minority of separatists that are insane that the Quebec electorate keep electing that make this an issue.

agreed. And these people taint the great majority of people in Quebec that want what's best for the province.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-27 11:56:03 and read 5897 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 109):
The speak English. That is a myth. I have never had any trouble with them speaking English.


Never said they don't speak English. But I can recall several (not just one) incident where an STM employee either refused to serve me in English or was visibly perturbed by the request.

Now, there's nothing wrong with that. Try getting served in Munich's main train station in English. It's pretty damn hard. Worse than anything in Quebec.

All I'm suggesting is that this choice impacts their economic competitiveness which undermines the case for such flights. I don't believe it's Quebec-bashing to suggest that their policy choices may be hurting them.


And nobody here has a problem with the French language or Quebecers. I don't get why Quebecers always take these issues personally. To me it's simply a customer service issue.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Airontario
Posted 2013-02-27 13:46:24 and read 5799 times.

Why is it that every thread on here that involves YUL brings out the anti-Montreal/Quebec crowd? There was a similar thread to this a while back about PIT, and it was maybe 10-15 replies. But the same thing comes out about YUL and it's 100+ replies.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: NorthStarDC4M
Posted 2013-02-27 14:43:15 and read 5746 times.

Quoting Airontario (Reply 112):

Why is it that every thread on here that involves YUL brings out the anti-Montreal/Quebec crowd? There was a similar thread to this a while back about PIT, and it was maybe 10-15 replies. But the same thing comes out about YUL and it's 100+ replies.

This is how...

1- Montreal doesn't get X
2- Somewhere else does get X
3- Why doesn't Montreal get X but somewhere else does
4- Enter pro/anti Quebec debate

Works every time... Like it or not Quebec politics and French protectionism plays a huge part in the interaction of everything (Montreal included) in that province with the rest of the country/world, and therefore will get commented on.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: caribb
Posted 2013-02-27 17:45:32 and read 5586 times.

Quoting Airontario (Reply 112):

Why is it that every thread on here that involves YUL brings out the anti-Montreal/Quebec crowd? There was a similar thread to this a while back about PIT, and it was maybe 10-15 replies. But the same thing comes out about YUL and it's 100+ replies.

It's basically the same culprits each time. The word Montreal or YUL gets them up on their soapbox and they start preaching to the choir. The same defenders come in and offer the same responses and inspire the same debates. it's relentless... but at the end of the day it's people who love to debate and truthfully they debate well. Good arguments are put on the table on both sides. It's just a shame that it almost always consumes any thread involving Montreal. I wish they could have their own Forum to just hack it all out among themselves.. LOL.. Sometimes I'm actually interested in the original topic but it usually gets lost about midway down...

I just hold on to the belief that they are not representative of most Canadians, or most Quebecers. I hope other people in the country are supportive and uplifting hoping both we and they will grow and become economically stronger together regardless of language or whatever barriers people perceive either rightly or wrongly as holding us back. Personally, I hope YUL has a few good years of growth outpacing the rest of the country but hey, I know a good dozen people or so here who tell me a dozen reasons why that cannot and will not happen so I won't say that LOL...

[Edited 2013-02-27 17:46:53]

[Edited 2013-02-27 17:47:55]

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ftornik
Posted 2013-02-27 19:03:24 and read 5504 times.

Montreal - Middle East service.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
Of note, at the end of the article, Mr. Rovinescu, AC's president & CEO, says he's optimistic about a non stop from YUL to PEK and BEY.

Montreal has service to Algiers and Casablanca. Both routes are based on immigrant communities and the latter also is connected to the oil sector The Amman service is a back-door service to Beirut as Canada's government has refused non-stop Canada-Lebanon services.

The Montreal-Doha service is not Montreal's connection to Asia, it is Qatar's connection to Canada as Canada denied them access to Toronto. The YUL-DOH flight is mostly based on South Asian traffic.

Rovinescu may mention Beirut but he knows AC will never be allowed to fly there. Ditto Peking, unless Canada negotiates more rights into China.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-27 19:57:37 and read 5460 times.

Quoting ftornik (Reply 115):
The Montreal-Doha service is not Montreal's connection to Asia, it is Qatar's connection to Canada as Canada denied them access to Toronto.

Qatar is allowed into YYZ, with the same rights as YUL. They chose YUL over YYZ due to the market already flown by EK and EY. They could have chosen to fly to YYZ had they desired.

Quoting ftornik (Reply 115):
Ditto Peking, unless Canada negotiates more rights into China.

China can fly from anywhere in their country to any 10 Canadian cities, Canada can from anywhere in Canada, to 10 Chinese cities. (This includes YUL)

Quoting ftornik (Reply 115):
Canada's government has refused non-stop Canada-Lebanon services.
Quoting ftornik (Reply 115):
Rovinescu may mention Beirut but he knows AC will never be allowed to fly there.

Lebanon can fly to YUL from anywhere in their country. Canada can fly from anywhere in Canada to BEY.

Why they don't, and why the air service was abruptly cancelled is up for debate. But ... the authority exists.

I refer you to this website which shows current air agreements.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/policy/ace-acea-menu.htm

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-02-27 20:37:23 and read 5393 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 111):

Never said they don't speak English. But I can recall several (not just one) incident where an STM employee either refused to serve me in English or was visibly perturbed by the request.

Now, there's nothing wrong with that. Try getting served in Munich's main train station in English. It's pretty damn hard. Worse than anything in Quebec.

First I would like to say that yes there are a few bad apples in the bunch, but on the whole to try to taint all STM employees with the same brush I think is a little unfair.

As for Munich, well that is in Germany, they don't have English as an official language. When I am in Germany I expect that they would speak German. I can manage in German and really think that what you want is everybody to speak English so that you feel comfortable. But I must remind you there are more countries who don't speak English then there are those who do.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-28 00:46:21 and read 5245 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 109):
it is only the small minority of separatists that are insane that the Quebec electorate keep electing that make this an issue.

Well, if the separatists are elected to the Quebec government, maybe they are not a small minority...

Quoting ytz (Reply 111):
Try getting served in Munich's main train station in English. It's pretty damn hard. Worse than anything in Quebec.
Quoting brilondon (Reply 117):
As for Munich, well that is in Germany, they don't have English as an official language.

Maybe this is a better example: try getting served in French in Zurich, or in German in Geneva. It won't work.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Quantos
Posted 2013-02-28 03:19:43 and read 5167 times.

Keep in mind actual separatism is not a currently active political issue, and hasn't truly been since 1995 (last referendum). There subsists a core of true separatists who want the PQ (separatist political party) to launch a referendum process, but in truth the leaders of the PQ know very well that there's just not enough support for the idea at the moment. The PQ got elected last September over much different issues, and the fact that they stated they do not want to do a referendum in the very near future probably helped them get elected. Anyway, they are a minority government for now, so it's a moot point.

I honestly think this is just something people should know before coming into Quebec. That stands true for both businesses and individuals. As unfortunate as it is, if you come into Quebec, expect SOME people to be unwilling to speak to you in English, and if you're a business, expect to be forced to work in French by the government. A lot of people don't agree with it, and I concur completely, but it's just the way it is.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-02-28 09:24:13 and read 5044 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 118):
Maybe this is a better example: try getting served in French in Zurich, or in German in Geneva. It won't work.

Having lived in Switzerland for a few years, I certainly agree with that (and I speak French and German). And ... if you think Quebecois are rude when you don't speak their language, the Swiss take it to an art form! But, having said that, in the top 5 of my most favourite places on earth include both Quebec and Switzerland!

I don't understand why people take such offense though. I have been unable to find service in English in Toronto, Miami and Vancouver! You deal with it and move on.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-02-28 09:38:37 and read 5013 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 120):
if you think Quebecois are rude when you don't speak their language, the Swiss take it to an art form!

I've lived in the Geneva area for a number of years. I wouldn't say the Swiss are particularly rude. It's just that it's inconceivable for them that a French-speaking Swiss would pretend to go around Zurich speaking French and expecting to be spoken in French (or even understood), and the same for a German-speaking Swiss in Geneva.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 120):
You deal with it and move on.

Exactly.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: TS-IOR
Posted 2013-02-28 09:43:25 and read 4999 times.

Syphax Airlines is to start a TUN-YUL sooner... within the next few months   the A330 which will fly the route is being customized to be delivered soon  

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-02-28 10:56:34 and read 4940 times.

Of all the missed destinations, I see ICN th most likely as noted:

Quoting point2point (Reply 2):
NRT and ICN probably doable.....
HKG - too long and thin I would suppose
BLR - is there really enough traffic here?

With the open skies, KE could open up quite a bit to YUL.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 19):
Few airlines would maintain 2 hubs just 300km apart -- the weaker hub weakens the whole network by duplicating costs.

Sad fact. AC needs to rationalize to keep costs down.

Quoting ytz (Reply 54):
Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
2.) do you expect people in Japan, Italy, Germany to speak english at the office? What about China, France?

You ever been to those places? The guy who speaks English well in the German or Chinese office is an asset not a workplace disruptor.

The reality is there are five languages being 'down-selected' for office talk: English, Spanish, Arabic, Mandarin, and Russian (due to forced language conversion in Siberia). One must be able to talk to vendors and trade partners. That means allowing in workers who speak other languages at the office! Even if it is that British English.   Seriously, how can a tech company thrive without workers who primarily speak other languages?

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Reply 67):
derstandable, but you really need to sit back and look at the population and economy of the city. Montreal has what, a bit over 3.5 million people in the metropolitan area? That's large, but not huge. Boston has over 4 million and they have less intercontinental service than YUL. Like YUL, the service BOS has is mostly focused on Europe.

Newer stats have 3.8 million which is good but Boston's CSA (draw for BOS airport) is 7.6 million! So YUL is being well served.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 84):
"YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City $300M, Saving Airlines $600M"  

YUL can wish for whatever services it wants, but if it's unprofitable for the airline, it's not going to happen

   That is true. Go to wikipeadia "Greater Montreal" or "Greater Boston."

Quoting yultopei (Reply 95):
So please to bashing our french culture that is something important for us.

But what if that is the root cause of lack of flights? I used to speak 3 languages, none of them French. I could move around most parts of the world *except* French speaking areas with ease. You want our money, now accommodate us to get it.

For more air service at YUL, that means making YUL a far more attractive mini-hub. That means accommodate the common 'passing through' languages (English and perhaps Spanish). Or... do not have the connections and let YYZ do it.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 103):
You are just as likely to need Mandarin or Punjabi as French working in a service position in Toronto. It's not a matter of french bashing it's just the way it is.

Here in LA it is Korean, Japanese, Mandarin, Cantonese, Russian, German, and French among others.

Quoting Quantos (Reply 119):
expect to be forced to work in French by the government.

Which means an outsider usually must go elsewhere in Canada to launch a business. The way to grow a language is create economic incentives not punishments...

Quoting longhauler (Reply 116):
China can fly from anywhere in their country to any 10 Canadian cities, Canada can from anywhere in Canada, to 10 Chinese cities. (This includes YUL)

Good luck getting rights into PEK... But otherwise I agree. However, for Asia, I do not see any one city having sufficient demand for expansion so I see a hub such as ICN being far more likely. A city of 4 million will only support so much air traffic. It might not

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-28 18:26:57 and read 4755 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 120):
Quoting UALWN (Reply 118):
Maybe this is a better example: try getting served in French in Zurich, or in German in Geneva. It won't work.

Having lived in Switzerland for a few years, I certainly agree with that (and I speak French and German). And ... if you think Quebecois are rude when you don't speak their language, the Swiss take it to an art form! But, having said that, in the top 5 of my most favourite places on earth include both Quebec and Switzerland!

I disagree with that. I've lived in the GVA area for almost 17 years and speak little French (I can read fairly well but conversational skills are very limited) and absolutely no German, and have never been treated rudely over language-related issues. In my experience that's more likely in France than in the French-speaking part of Switzerland. Something like 1/3 of the population in the GVA area have a mother tongue that is not one of the Swiss national languages.

One big difference I have noted between Switzerland and Canada is that in the French-speaking part of Switzerland you almost never hear German spoken (and vice versa), except in a few towns that are right on the linguistic boundary, unlike Canada where English is commonly used and heard in Quebec.

Coincidentally, the French-mother tongue populations of both Canada and Switzerland are very close to the same percentage (around 20%) of the total population.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Skywatcher
Posted 2013-02-28 19:09:13 and read 4699 times.

My opinion is that as the years pass more and more North American cities will receive direct air service to China. It is inevitable. I suspect that one of the Chinese airlines might even beat AC to the punch on a YUL-PEK routing (how about 2016?) . It would sure beat connecting in DTW, YYZ, ORD or YVR where weather delays and congestion can be major headaches.

Some may state "why not just funnel traffic through an efficient hub like YYZ". Well that may help an airline's bottom line but as a customer it simply sucks. I have had many, many missed connections doing transfers. That turns a 2 hour connection inconvenience into a 6 or 8 hour nightmare, sometimes more. For people that live in hubs it is inconsiderate to suggest that others suffer the inconvenience of connections that they themselves don't have to do. If there is a weather issue they can simply go back home. I, on the other hand, might have to sleep in an airport all night (sometimes with young children).

For people that don't reside in hub cities more point to point options are highly desirable. I am always willing to pay more for a non-stop choice over a transfer at a hub.

As far as the Quebec thing goes as an Ango that was born and still lives there I used to defend Quebec with outsiders and criticize it with insiders. I no longer bother doing either. Life is simply too short.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: hoons90
Posted 2013-02-28 19:11:53 and read 4702 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 123):
However, for Asia, I do not see any one city having sufficient demand for expansion so I see a hub such as ICN being far more likely.

A hypothetical YUL-ICN flight would probably rely heavily on low yielding leisure traffic connecting onwards to KE's vast Southeast Asia network. I'm not sure if that's the recipe for success.

I'd be very surprised if there was a significant amount of O&D traffic between YUL and SEL itself.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: bsbisland
Posted 2013-02-28 19:15:47 and read 4731 times.

I wonder if YUL-GRU would ever work with AC, specially after GRU terminal 4 is ready after 2014. Canada-Brazil seems terribly underserved.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: ftornik
Posted 2013-03-02 07:37:47 and read 4359 times.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
Lebanon can fly to YUL from anywhere in their country. Canada can fly from anywhere in Canada to BEY.

Why they don't, and why the air service was abruptly cancelled is up for debate. But ... the authority exists.

I refer you to this website which shows current air agreements.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/policy/ace-a...u.htm

Based on public information (http://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/bilateral) you are right. However the actual web-site you should be looking at is
http://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/index.aspx

That shows you the legal text of the various agreements once they become official and this often happens many years after ratification. Here the devil is in the details, While the public text indicates that China can serve 10 points in Canada, it does not indicate frequency, routing or aircraft size. Many of these agreements have impediments against daily service that make commercial service over all but a few selected routes unviable. Further the page your refer to was last modified in 2005!

Re Lebanon:

After various unsuccesful attempts to serve Beirut, the Canadian Transportation Agency officially denied Air Canada a license to serve Beirtut on March 8, 2005.
See https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/129-a-2005. No action has been taken since.

Re Qatar:

I am not sure where you got your information, but Qatar was offered only 3 flights/week to Canada, (http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/kuwait-koweit/bilateral_relations_bilaterales/canada-qatar.aspx?view=d) and I understand they were "encouraged" to pick an airport other than Toronto. It is no coincidence that the UAE is the only Arab country whose airlines fly non-stop to Toronto. All of the others, Algeria, Egypt, Morocco, and Qatar serve Montreal. Indeed, the ony reason why Turkish airlines was allowed to serve Toronto is that they are members of the Star Alliance and code-share with Air Canada.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-03-02 08:18:18 and read 4309 times.

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 125):
For people that live in hubs it is inconsiderate to suggest that others suffer the inconvenience of connections that they themselves don't have to do.

It's not about being inconsiderate, it's about the bottom line. Hub and spoke is the most efficient thing to do when a city pair doesn't support non-stops.

Also if air travel is such a major requirement, one could chose to live in a hub city and/or have their business located in a hub city.

It's not like we get some sort of right to have non-stops to wherever we personally want them.

There are a lot of negatives to living in a hub city like higher cost of tickets and higher parking and/or ground transportation costs. There are also a lot of positives, like increased choice.

We all get to sort this out for ourselves.

In my case I don't like city life so I don't live in a city. I'll drive to an outlying airport that has almost all RJ service, or I'll put up with the drive to the city, depending on who is paying and where I'm going.

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 125):
For people that don't reside in hub cities more point to point options are highly desirable. I am always willing to pay more for a non-stop choice over a transfer at a hub.

I used to always be, but for me the balance point is tipping.

On my next trip it's a connection westbound and non-stop east bound.

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 125):
As far as the Quebec thing goes as an Ango that was born and still lives there I used to defend Quebec with outsiders and criticize it with insiders. I no longer bother doing either. Life is simply too short.

Yep, most of the posts in this thread shows that in spades.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-03-02 09:59:51 and read 4253 times.

Quoting bsbisland (Reply 127):

I wonder if YUL-GRU would ever work with AC, specially after GRU terminal 4 is ready after 2014. Canada-Brazil seems terribly underserved.

You are looking at Canada as a isolated island. The US is with 200 km of 90% of the population of Canada and there are cheaper alternatives in the US to fly to South America. That is where your competition is when comes to competing flights and thus is served quite well from airports like BUF, DTW, and even ORD.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-03-02 13:52:39 and read 4122 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 130):
The US is with 200 km of 90% of the population of Canada and there are cheaper alternatives in the US to fly to South America. That is where your competition is when comes to competing flights and thus is served quite well from airports like BUF, DTW, and even ORD.

American airports are normally only cheaper when traveling within the United States. But looking at your example, I picked a date a couple months from now, April 22.2013 ...

From YYZ. on AC, non-stop YYZ-GRU, $906.00 including taxes.

From BUF on, AA/TAM BUF-ORD-GRU was the cheapest at $1128.60
From ORD, on, Copa, ORD-PTY-GRU was the cheapest at $1036.60
From DTW, on Avianca, DTW-IAD-BOG-GRU was the cheapest at 978.90.

It is interesting to note that AC through YYZ was cheaper than any American carrier from either BUF, ORD or DTW to GRU!

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Aesma
Posted 2013-03-02 15:50:34 and read 4043 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
A few months ago I recall a Quebec government mission conducting information sessions in GVA to encourage immigrants to Quebec from the French-speaking part of Switzerland.

Just the other day I was surprised to see a TV ad on French TV for immigration not to Canada but Québec.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-03-02 16:06:33 and read 4016 times.

Quoting hoons90 (Reply 126):
A hypothetical YUL-ICN flight would probably rely heavily on low yielding leisure traffic connecting onwards to KE's vast Southeast Asia network. I'm not sure if that's the recipe for success.

That might explain the lack of the flight.  

However, there should be enough J demand to grow a connection to a hub:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 129):
It's not about being inconsiderate, it's about the bottom line. Hub and spoke is the most efficient thing to do when a city pair doesn't support non-stops.

   I suspect YUL will see more connections to hubs as it just will not support enough O&D demand to one destination. ICN or PEK. PEK has the distance advantage, in particular after KE/OZ avoids North Korea. But KE/OZ are far more nimble and more likely to seize the opportunity.

HKG is too far for the likely yields and that puts PVG at a disadvantage. So ICN or PEK.


Lightsaber

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-02 16:30:01 and read 3996 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 123):

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 19):
Few airlines would maintain 2 hubs just 300km apart -- the weaker hub weakens the whole network by duplicating costs.

Sad fact. AC needs to rationalize to keep costs down.

So LH should can DUS?

The relationship between FRA/DUS and YYZ/YUL is very similar.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-03-02 16:37:45 and read 3987 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 134):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 123):

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 19):
Few airlines would maintain 2 hubs just 300km apart -- the weaker hub weakens the whole network by duplicating costs.

Sad fact. AC needs to rationalize to keep costs down.

So LH should can DUS?

The relationship between FRA/DUS and YYZ/YUL is very similar.

FRA-MUC (as the crow flies) is also only 301 km, much closer than the 508 km from Montreal to Toronto.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Fly2yyz
Posted 2013-03-02 16:47:02 and read 3979 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 133):
I suspect YUL will see more connections to hubs as it just will not support enough O&D demand to one destination. ICN or PEK. PEK has the distance advantage, in particular after KE/OZ avoids North Korea. But KE/OZ are far more nimble and more likely to seize the opportunity.

HKG is too far for the likely yields and that puts PVG at a disadvantage. So ICN or PEK.

The only thing airline I see flying from YUL is TS operating YUL-YVR-Asia. KE/OZ would not operate to YUL but merely codeshare through WS/AC or from the US as they currently do. And if in the slim chance we do see a YUL-Asia flight I would say the route would be to NRT. There's seasonal demand already with the foliage charters but other than that... its fairly slim pickings.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2013-03-02 17:06:11 and read 3954 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
Today, I don't see what benefit there is to doing business in Montreal. Toronto is better connected. You don't have to worry about language issues. You don't have to worry about geopolitical uncertainties. You can get a diverse workforce which lets you do business in Asia, and you don't have to worry about strange language laws impacting your diverse staff. Taxes are low for your business and your employees, public infrastructure is better and the financial nexus of the country is down the street.

The separatist movement in Quebec essentially scared a lot of business out of Montreal and the airport that serves the airport, YUL. Which is too bad because Montreal does have very literate workforce that could contribute even more to Canada's gross national product. As such, I think it's getting to the point that YUL could end up being under-utilized in the long run, in my humble opinion!

Meanwhile, Toronto residents not only primarily speaks a language that is heavily used in business and science worldwide (which means there is enough business for many flights from both the USA and UK), but Toronto also has the advantage of a huge number of expatriates from Hong Kong and China living there, which means Toronto has strong business connections to China. Indeed, Both Air China and Cathay Pacific have flights to YYZ.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-03-02 17:51:00 and read 3911 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 135):
FRA-MUC (as the crow flies) is also only 301 km, much closer than the 508 km from Montreal to Toronto.

You make a good point. Now what would LH do if they had another runway, terminal, and 24/7 ops at FRA? It would be rational to consolidate.
Last I looked, AC does not face the infrastructure constraints that LH does. I simply do not see the connection opportunities at YUL that one has at YYZ. "Grow from strength" is an old business axiom that is still true today.

I'm just not a fan of split hubs. They tend to be an opportunity to be bypassed once the competition puts their 'game hat' on.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 134):
So LH should can DUS?

I think of DUS as more O&D. A little connecting traffic is fine to improve the economics. Traditionally a 'hub' has 30% to 70% O&D traffic. Prior discussion had LH relying on O&D traffic at DUS.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ral_aviation/print.main?id=4588044
I would be happy to be corrected. But DUS does not meet the classical definition of a hub unless the transfer traffic has increased and I missed it.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-03-02 18:07:30 and read 3891 times.

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 43):

As UK visitor to Montreal for the first time in the last few weeks, I was shocked that the city was so unfriendly to english speakers.

That has been my experience in multiple visits as well.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 46):
The majority of people I speak who visit the city typically have positive experiences with customer service, tourism related inquiries etc.

That is contrary to the experience of most people I know

Quoting hohd (Reply 59):
In fact I was surprised that most people I met know English and spoke English if spoken to

I have heard people speaking English that suddenly forgot how to do so when approached and asked a question. This has happened more than once to me, as well as several other people I know.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 83):
Seriously? I consider myself fairly well traveled and speak French fluently. While I did not have "bad experiences", I found I got much better service speaking French - and in general, the city not being friendly whatsoever towards a non-French speaker. A shame really in 2013, and no wonder why talent does not flock to the city.

Agreed, the city has worked long and hard to earn their reputation.

Quoting Airontario (Reply 112):

Why is it that every thread on here that involves YUL brings out the anti-Montreal/Quebec crowd? There was a similar thread to this a while back about PIT, and it was maybe 10-15 replies. But the same thing comes out about YUL and it's 100+ replies.

As others have mentioned, you have a natural defensiveness on the part of Quebec residents. Others may say it is a sense of entitlement and arrogance. Oddly enough, that is similar to PIT. A large number of people that live there seem to think it's heaven on Earth and most people from outside the area can't wait to leave.

All of that said, Montreal is a beautiful city. If not for the poor treatment and borderline hostile environment at times, I certainly would have visited much more often over the years.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-03-02 19:23:09 and read 3844 times.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 139):
That has been my experience in multiple visits as well.

Great. Just go to Tourisme Montreal website and see the many surveys done - and which indicate that Montreal is seen as a friendly place for business and tourism. Too bad your experience doesn't share that view.

Air Canada is invested in Montreal as an important station- that differentiates itself from Toronto by focusing on large O&Ds out of YUL and Francophone markets internationally. The story of Beijing/China/Asia is quite simply that the current O&D demand levels support a nonstop flights to Asia (primarily China) - and even the CEO of Air Canada publicly mentioned that this project is feasible should commercially viable slots be found.

Why this becomes an anti-Quebec, anti-Montreal and cultural discussion is really absurd.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: airsmiles
Posted 2013-03-03 00:08:19 and read 3722 times.

"Why this becomes an anti-Quebec, anti-Montreal and cultural discussion is really absurd." (from YLYYUL)

Here lies the fundamental issue. Quebecois see some comments made as anti-Quebec/Montreal, while visitors who have no real agenda are really just stating their honest opinions. I'm sure some visitors did indeed have a great time in Quebec/Montreal but, as a widely travelled business and leisure traveller, I know the majority of people I've talked to feel Quebec/Montreal is generally intolerant of english-speakers. It may be a problem of perception rather than reality, but that perception by the wider world is hampering the realisation of more YUL non-stop flights whether Quebecois like it or not.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-03 04:47:41 and read 3670 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 138):
I think of DUS as more O&D. A little connecting traffic is fine to improve the economics.

Exactly the case of YUL. It's catchment area for O&D/connecting traffic includes YQB, YOW and secondary Quebec cities - approximately 9 million.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 140):
Air Canada is invested in Montreal as an important station- that differentiates itself from Toronto by focusing on large O&Ds out of YUL and Francophone markets internationally.

   Like the different markets for LH from FRA and BRU (318 km apart).

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-03-03 06:33:22 and read 3615 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 138):
Now what would LH do if they had another runway, terminal, and 24/7 ops at FRA? It would be rational to consolidate.

And abandon MUC, which serves the de-facto business (not finance) capital of Germany? I don't think so.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: adamh8297
Posted 2013-03-03 13:42:50 and read 3444 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 131):
It is interesting to note that AC through BUF, ORD or DTW to GRU!
AC will sometimes be the cheapest carrier on BOS-Posted 2013-03-03 14:23:13 and read 3401 times.

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 141):

Here lies the fundamental issue. Quebecois see some comments made as anti-Quebec/Montreal, while visitors who have no real agenda are really just stating their honest opinions. I'm sure some visitors did indeed have a great time in Quebec/Montreal but, as a widely travelled business and leisure traveller, I know the majority of people I've talked to feel Quebec/Montreal is generally intolerant of english-speakers. It may be a problem of perception rather than reality, but that perception by the wider world is hampering the realisation of more YUL non-stop flights whether Quebecois like it or not.

Nobody is disagreeing with you on this. There's a strong vocal minority of people that don't like outsiders. I'm cautious to let this vocal minority speak on the behalf of the majority of welcoming YULers/ettes. YUL isn't the only city in the world to have cultural tensions.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-03-03 15:15:57 and read 3327 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 143):
And abandon MUC, which serves the de-facto business (not finance) capital of Germany? I don't think so.

I never said abandon. However, connectivity makes it easy to connect. Perhaps the growth would switch to FRA? But it is a pipe dream. Europe is doing very little to expand their hubs. If LH had unlimited growth room at FRA (including 24/7), they would consolidate connections at FRA. But that won't happen.

Really the open option for growth is a little at FRA and hopefully a new set of runways at MUC. So I have no fear MUC will be downsized. Not with every slot spoken for at the economic times at MUC and the lack of growth at FRA.

And keeping on topic, YUL has an O&D market, but for hubbing, its best to 'grow from strength.' Secondary hubs just mean someone else is given the opportunity to have more convenient connections. One needs frequency for a hub. Splitting that frequency means someone else could be competitive.

I would like to see a stronger AC. A stronger AC means more than just buying the right fleet or negotiation of the right contracts. It is pursuing a strategy for profit and growth. For only a growing company is ready to seize opportunities.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: Skywatcher
Posted 2013-03-03 17:50:37 and read 3238 times.

In my opinion the "hub" and spoke system has maxed out. I miss almost every connection I book in EWR these days because of congestion. The fact that there are 3 different terminals just makes it tighter and more stressful. I have similar problems at most other hubs. They are simply too crowded with long lines of aircraft waiting to land and take off and people everywhere. If there are any weather anomalies forget it. It takes a day to simply recover back to the maxed out normal patterns.

All of the pro-hubbers here talk about efficiency and bottom line. In a perfect world this might be true but most hub infrastructure is bursting at the seams with no new funding in sight. There is no more room!

I'm happy to pay a premium for as many non-stop options as are available. YUL is never "maxed out" and neither are most of the destinations I go to. Why would I want a stressful, time consuming and possibly missed connection instead?

[Edited 2013-03-03 17:51:33]

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-03-03 19:02:31 and read 3160 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 146):
Really the open option for growth is a little at FRA

FRA just opened a new runway.

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-03-03 20:46:13 and read 3093 times.

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 147):
I'm happy to pay a premium for as many non-stop options as are available.

Most passengers are. I believe the MRJ, re-engined E-jets, C-series, MAX, and NEO will further that trend. But there will still be hubs.

I agree hubs need more infrastructure. But hubbing goes to the most optimal solution. If you have issues at EWR, don't hub there. I personally have *never* had an issue at DEN and thus it is my first choice (if I must hub). There is always competition. One just has to be better.

If I had my way I would always fly in and out of small airports. Since that will never be always an option... Cest la vie.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 148):
FRA just opened a new runway.

And cut night flights. So a little growth, but not much. I was thinking on a more 'grand scale.'

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-03-03 21:48:41 and read 3037 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 149):
And cut night flights.

By an hour, I think...


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