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Topic: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-19 12:34:21 and read 53906 times.

Flightglobal reports that Lufthansa is in talk with both Boeing and Airbus to order up to 108 new aircraft: 100 short-haul and 8 long-haul units.

Quote:
#Lufthansa proposing to supervisory board to order 100 short-haul and eight long-haul aircraft, delivery in 2015-25.
Quote:
#Lufhansa in discussions with both #Airbus and #Boeing over order for 108 aircraft, overall value of $9bn.

What do you think, 737 Max / A320neo, A350 / 787 or even more VLA's?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-02-19 12:40:22 and read 53893 times.

Eight long haul units seems to be a bit too small a number for LH, to introduce a new type; I think these would most likely be a top up of existing types - and not just one model either. Could be a combination of existing types, e.g. 6 A330s and 2 A380s.

As to short haul types, I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO. But stranger things have happened and availability may be an issue.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-19 12:42:59 and read 53805 times.

I wonder if this is for the LH fleet, or also for Swiss/AUA and Brussels, all of which have many shorthaul planes to replace in that timeframe. 8 longhaul planes, that doesnt sound like the long awaited 787/A350 battle. More like a a follow-on order for a few A380s, A330s, 748s, maybe even all three types. And 100 shorthaulers for between 2015 - 2025, thats likely to replace the dozens of A319s, A320s and A321s built in the 90s/early 2000s. By 2015 all 737s are gone, and replacements for them and the A320s built around 1990 have been ordered already some time ago.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-19 12:58:57 and read 53563 times.

8 747-8Is and 100 Airbus narrowbodies.....   No word of the CSeries though

P.S. Would love if they would order some 737Max as well, Lufthansa is not Lufthansa without the 737 !!!

[Edited 2013-02-19 13:01:11]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Aviaco
Posted 2013-02-19 13:00:47 and read 53492 times.

That would add on to the 131 planes they already have on order until 2025....
A total of 239.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: ba319-131
Posted 2013-02-19 13:24:56 and read 53258 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Eight long haul units seems to be a bit too small a number for LH, to introduce a new type

- Agreed, given, the 2015-2025 slot this has to favour 748 and or A380.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
As to short haul types, I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO

- Indeed, especially as LH already have a NEO order placed from a year or so back.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
But stranger things have happened and availability may be an issue.

- True, let's not count chickens just yet!

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2013-02-19 13:30:27 and read 53145 times.

My guess is for 8 77W for LX and a mix of A32S NEO and C-Series. Given the fact that the aging Fokkers and Avros of OS and SN respectively need to be eventually replaced I'm quite sure this order will include smaller aircraft.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-19 13:34:32 and read 53050 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 6):
My guess is for 8 77W for LX

A350 makes much more sense considering commonality issues.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Aviaco
Posted 2013-02-19 13:36:30 and read 52993 times.

I think the eight new long haul aircraft will be follow on orders of an existing subfleet.
A330 or A380 or B747-8i, or a mix of it.
The decision which new aircraft type will be introduced will be made later this year, i guess.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2013-02-19 13:37:29 and read 53009 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
A350 makes much more sense considering commonality issues.
LX needs to replace six A343s soon as their leases expire. They will not get A350-1000s until around 2018. Furthermore Harry Hohmeister (LX CEO) has already indicated several times in interviews that he wants the new planes to arrive by 2015. According to these interviews it's also quite clear that he seems to favor the 77W as a A343 replacement. The 77W would give LX great potential to profitably grow its long haul network between 2015 and 2020.

[Edited 2013-02-19 13:39:19]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-19 13:38:09 and read 52945 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
As to short haul types, I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO. But stranger things have happened and availability may be an issue.

I am 110% sure they will not order the MAX because none of the LH Group operate the 737 anymore (they're either gone or going). Even if Boeing could offer a significant number of planes with earlier availability, I am 120% sure the group's airlines would all wait for additional A320neo slots beyond what they already have on order or lease interim lift.

There is 130% no chance of a 777-300ER order for LX. LH would order additional 747-8s and then hand off A340-600s to LX first.

[Edited 2013-02-19 13:41:09]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-02-19 13:38:28 and read 52930 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO

Especially as they've already ordered the neo.   

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-19 13:39:46 and read 52942 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 6):
My guess is for 8 77W for LX

99% no. LH will go 787 or A350, maybe the 777X has a small chance in 10 years from now. But not a small fleet of a type whose production end is at the horizon and that has been turned down twice already.
Beside that, as I said, a number of the shorthaul planes could very well be for Swiss (and Austrian, and Brussels, beside LH).

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-19 13:42:17 and read 52831 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
LX needs to replace six A343s soon as their leases expire. They will not get A350-1000s until around 2018. Furthermore Harry Hohmeister (LX CEO) has already indicated several times in interviews that he wants the new planes to arrive by 2015. According to these interviews it's also quite clear that he seems to favor the 77W as a A343 replacement. The 77W would give LX great potential to profitably grow its long haul network between 2015 and 2020.

Swiss is premium heavy, and the 748I would provide high-yield passengers with superior comfort than the middle-of-the road 77W without a doubt.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: autothrust
Posted 2013-02-19 15:46:06 and read 50926 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 6):
My guess is for 8 77W

Not gonna happen. If they would buy 777 for LX or LH a subfleet of 8 would be to small to justify the introduction of a new type.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
They will not get A350-1000s

Who's talking about the A350-1000?? They could get much earlier some A350-900 with unprecedented economy over their existing fleet.


Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
Harry Hohmeister (LX CEO) has already indicated several times in interviews that he wants the new planes to arrive by 2015.

That's why they will probably lease some A340-6 until the A350 arrives.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
According to these interviews it's also quite clear that he seems to favor the 77W as a A343 replacement.

I really don't know where you get this myth. It's nowhere clear he seems to favor the 77W.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 9):
The 77W would give LX great potential

True it's a efficient platform, but at what expense. What will pilots say about. And you forgot SR Technics which has ZERO experience with this Type.

Introducing a new "older" Type to Pilots and SR Technics, destroying commonality(where many LX pilots are happy about) between the fleet, while the next gen widebody is at the door doesn't make any sense. I bet SR Technics will be eagerly to get their hands on the A350's composite frame. A lot of their customers will get the A350 too.

Quoting na (Reply 12):
99% no.

     

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: JordanFittz
Posted 2013-02-19 15:49:52 and read 50871 times.

I would say its inevitable LH will order the 350 at some point in the not to distant future. Unlikely to be part of this particular order that flight global are reporting on. At a guess id say they may order a batch of A333s as a stop gap until they can get there hands on the A350. Unlikely they'll go 777w in my opinion.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-19 17:20:07 and read 49260 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
As to short haul types, I'd eat my lederhosen if they chose the 737-MAX over the A320 NEO. But stranger things have happened and availability may be an issue.

I'd be pretty sure that a) LH placed options when they originally ordered their first batch of NEOs and b) there are still some slots available in the time beyond that, i.e. between the end of their first 30 NEO deliveries and 2025.
As for the long-haul decision, I agree they won't introduce a new type with an order for just 8, i.e. this won't be their long-awaited order for A350/787, but a top-up of either A330, 747-8i or A380 (or a mix thereof).

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2013-02-19 17:52:22 and read 48782 times.

I think A333E or 748I for the widebody and Neo for the narrowbody order.

KH

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-19 17:54:00 and read 48788 times.

Just found this at Bloomberg:

Quote:
The company said the aircraft order will be a blend of Airbus SAS and Boeing Co. airliners, while not disclosing the exact types.
http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...uro-plane-purchase.html?cmpid=yhoo

Sounds like they're almost done negotiating and have a clear idea of the types and numbers involved.
MAX seems unlikely, so it's probably going to be NEO and some 747-8i, plus maybe 3 - 5 A380s (they should still have 3 options for the type). There's one 747-8i LH said they would likely re-order after they cancelled their order for an early frame that now stays with Boeing.
Then again - LH may surprise us with a mix of MAX and NEO, plus 747-8i/A380s; Lufthansa Technik would surely be providing maintenance for MAX anyway, and LH have been successfully operating 737 Classic and A32S side-by-side, as well as different engine types on the A32S family members. They also have plenty of pilots trained on 737 Classic for whom the transition to 737MAX shouldn't take too long. One catch: The 737s are supposed to leave the fleet by 2016, while MAX has an EIS of 2017 (if all goes well), and most early slots are already taken.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2013-02-19 19:43:39 and read 47489 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 18):

If LH orders the 737 max, it will be somewhat of a surprise to me as they seem to favor Airbus with their recent orders for the Neo. They currently operate 39 737 300/500's of which I suspect the 100 plane narrowbody will replace. As most of you know, LH likes to keep things simple and going Boeing for their narrowbody fleet does the exact opposite. Yes they have classics right now, by why add costs when you can trim it??

KH

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-19 21:58:35 and read 45919 times.

So if this is going to be a blend of Airbus and Boeing aircraft and we know it will be for 100 short haul and 8 long haul aircraft it is very likely that the split will be 100 short haul aircraft for Airbus aircraft and the 8 long haul aircraft will go to Boeing.

For the 8 long haul aircraft there are two choices: 8 747-8Is for LH main line and even if many don´t believe it 8 777W for Swiss. From what I have read over the last few weeks I would not be surprised if it will be the later. Swiss wants the 777W. They need a bigger plane for their routes to Brazil. The 747-8I which was also briefly considered is too big. They don´t want 2nd hand A346s for various reasons, this option is of the table. That leaves only the 777W if they want a bigger plane in 2015. LH already has experience with the 777 with Austrian, Aero Logic and Lufthansa Cargo has them on order, too. It is not that the 777 will be an oddball within the LH group.

[Edited 2013-02-19 22:01:20]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: usctrojan18
Posted 2013-02-19 22:32:34 and read 45450 times.

Would love to see some more 747-8i's no matter what airline. The 747 is a legend I really hope doesnt die like the DC-10 is just about to.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-02-19 22:34:28 and read 45413 times.

I would say 8 747-800s for the wide bodies and 100 A320NEOs family for the narrow body.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: gjunnar
Posted 2013-02-20 03:03:36 and read 41275 times.

German air-industry newspage aero.de reports (unconfirmed!)

6x 777 for SWISS (most probably 77W)
2x A380 for LH

http://www.aero.de/news-16911/Luftha...12-operativen-Gewinnrueckgang.html

[Edited 2013-02-20 03:03:53]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-02-20 03:20:30 and read 41002 times.

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):
2x A380 for LH

Seems like Lufthansa is very happy with the A380.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: RickNRoll
Posted 2013-02-20 03:23:32 and read 42061 times.

Looks like the 777 beats the 748 again.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-02-20 03:24:04 and read 42106 times.

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):
6x 777 for SWISS (most probably 77W)
2x A380 for LH

If that turns out to be true, that will be a bit disappointing for some here in this thread...

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-20 03:25:11 and read 42825 times.

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):

German air-industry newspage aero.de reports (unconfirmed!)

6x 777 for SWISS (most probably 77W)
2x A380 for LH

http://www.aero.de/news-16911/Luftha....html

That would definitely be a negative surprise for me if true. My most disliked widebody for Swiss   I sincerely hoped LH would have succeeded in avoiding 777 classics (ok, except the freighters, which will surely be great as the MD11 replacements available). The 77W seems to be the only plane in the size Swiss needs now. I think a ten year lease deal makes more sense then buying, because in the eraly 20s the 77W will technologically be what the A346 is now.

Anway, its Swiss, I fly LH, and they have the 748I thank god! I had hoped for some more of those though.
I expect many of the narrowbodies will be for Swiss then, too.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 24):
Seems like Lufthansa is very happy with the A380.

They are very happy with both the A380 and the 748.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-20 03:38:01 and read 42399 times.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 19):
If LH orders the 737 max, it will be somewhat of a surprise to me as they seem to favor Airbus with their recent orders for the Neo. They currently operate 39 737 300/500's of which I suspect the 100 plane narrowbody will replace. As most of you know, LH likes to keep things simple and going Boeing for their narrowbody fleet does the exact opposite.

Well, they're not really keeping things that simple - they ordered their last 737 Classics (by way of converting orders) in 1995. They had already been operating A320s for six years at that point.
Also, they're one of only two airlines to order the A380 and the 747-8i. Not to mention that while all other airlines seem to go with a single engine choice for their A320 family planes, LH went with CFM on their A319/A320 and IAE for their A321 fleet.
So I wouldn't put it beyond them to go with, say, 65 NEO (30 on order, plus 35 from the 100-frame contingent to be decided upon) and 65 MAX if they find that the mix suits them.

Quoting columba (Reply 20):
So if this is going to be a blend of Airbus and Boeing aircraft

Actually, I may have to go back on that statement - while Bloomberg quotes LH as stating that the order will be a mix of Airbus and Boeing, all other news reports and quotes I could find only stated that they are negotiating with Airbus and Boeing, which would still leave open the possibility of a 100% A or 100% B order.

Quoting columba (Reply 20):
we know it will be for 100 short haul and 8 long haul aircraft it is very likely that the split will be 100 short haul aircraft for Airbus aircraft and the 8 long haul aircraft will go to Boeing.

Just considering the long-haul order, I wouldn't be so sure it'd be 100% Boeing.
While I think LH is going to top up their 747-8i order by at least 1 (to bring it back to the 20 they originally ordered), they also still have three options on the A380 originally placed when they first ordered the plane (as far as I could find). I would imagine the conditions they got on those options are quite good, so I could definitely see a split of, say, 3 A380 and 5 747-8i, which would give them a total fleet size of 24 747-8i and 20 A380.

Quoting columba (Reply 20):
For the 8 long haul aircraft there are two choices: 8 747-8Is for LH main line and even if many don´t believe it 8 777W for Swiss. From what I have read over the last few weeks I would not be surprised if it will be the later. Swiss wants the 777W.

But they want it to replace their A340s - and they've got 15 of those. Also, the statements released by LH suggest that the 8 long-haul planes are to be used by LH itself. Even if a decision in favour of 777 was imminent at LX, which would help economics for a LH 777 order, along with the Austrian and LH Cargo/AeroLogic 777s, I think that 8 777s wouldn't be a realistic number for LH as they have 48 A340s (24 -300 and 24 -600).
Which is why I still think this 8-frame order is going to be 747-8i/A380 or a mix thereof.

Some press statements over the last few days also said that LH would decide on 787/A350 in autumn, so that's when I would expect the decision on any 777/777X/787/A350 for A340 replacement at LX and LH.

Quoting columba (Reply 20):
They need a bigger plane for their routes to Brazil. [...] the 777W if they want a bigger plane in 2015. LH already has experience with the 777 with Austrian, Aero Logic and Lufthansa Cargo has them on order, too. It is not that the 777 will be an oddball within the LH group.

Possibly, but as I stated above - 8 frames would not be a realistic number for LH or LX, never mind both of them combined. So I don't see any 777s at least in that 8-frame order - the order expected in autumn may be a different matter, though.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-20 03:46:18 and read 42143 times.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 25):
Looks like the 777 beats the 748 again.

Well, since part of these wide-bodies are for Swiss, the choice seems logical if this is confirmed.

Quoting na (Reply 27):
They are very happy with both the A380 and the 748.

I guess they are. And good for them and us. More 4-holers in the sky is always a good thing in my book.  .

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2013-02-20 03:46:26 and read 42133 times.

LH as befitting a major airline with the interests of its shareholders in mind, will be scrupulously fair in evaluating the A320 NEO and 737 MAX side by side, looking at everything from purchase cost down to residual value in 20 years time.
When everything has been looked in to and the best deal calculated they will then






Think of the outrage in Hamburg if they buy Boeing  

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2013-02-20 03:50:07 and read 42082 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 28):
But they want it to replace their A340s - and they've got 15 of those.

Of the 15 frames currently in the fleet six need to be replaced quite soon as they are older and their leasing contracts expire. These six frames are

HB-JMJ (cn 150, built 1996)
HB-JMK (cn 169, built 1997)
HB-JML (cn 263, built 1999)
HB-JMM (cn 154, built 1996)
HB-JMN (cn 175, built 1997)
HB-JMO (cn 179, built 1997)

The other nine frames were built in 2003 and 2004. Therefore these planes will need to be replaced later on. My guess is that LH will look into the 777X as well as A350-1000 as a replacement for these aircrafts.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: brightcedars
Posted 2013-02-20 04:09:18 and read 41693 times.

I think the 77W is perfectly suited for LX and a nice introduction to the wider LH group fleet. A carrier the size of LH cannot have exclusives, especially when they can have sub-fleets big enough to benefit from the pro's of both OEM's product lines.

This will open the door to the 777X for future replacements at all LH group airlines.

On the narrow-body front I think LH group is to stick with Airbus for now.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-02-20 04:11:07 and read 41611 times.

Quoting usctrojan18 (Reply 21):
The 747 is a legend I really hope doesnt die like the DC-10 is just about to.

It will. Just as every type does eventually.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: jumpjet
Posted 2013-02-20 04:23:30 and read 41329 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 33):
Quoting usctrojan18 (Reply 21):
The 747 is a legend I really hope doesnt die like the DC-10 is just about to.

It will. Just as every type does eventually.

Sad, but very true....   

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: CiC
Posted 2013-02-20 04:35:42 and read 41091 times.

Are there any 77W Production slots available ?
Maybe LH gets another huuuuuuuuuuuuuge Discount on more 748i to keep the production line ongoing...
I would love to see 748i with Swiss (and maybe Austrian)...

Or do they get a very good discount on the 763ER/W brand new, available now and giving good PR to cover a little the Nightmareliner's desaster?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: fcogafa
Posted 2013-02-20 04:41:16 and read 40880 times.

Excellent call by PillinBRN against all the odds - could you advise this weeks winning lottery numbers too please?!

[Edited 2013-02-20 04:48:13]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: DALCE
Posted 2013-02-20 04:46:52 and read 40718 times.

My hopes are that LX will get some 748i's as replacements. But it is more likely that LH gets new longhaul aircraft, and some LH metal will be transferred to LX. This can be 346 or even 343's ( which I don't hope ).

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Cassi
Posted 2013-02-20 04:50:23 and read 40636 times.

From a recent interview with John Leahy:

"there are two A380 slots available by the end of 2015 and a few more in 2016."

LH could get those 2 A380s in less than 3 years if it really needs them.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2013-02-20 05:01:27 and read 40460 times.

Quoting CiC (Reply 35):
Or do they get a very good discount on the 763ER/W brand new, available now and giving good PR to cover a little the Nightmareliner's desaster?

.... Oh dear, where to start? LH getting back in the 767 game or compensation for an aircraft they didn't order? On the other hand, better leave it alone.

Back on topic, there was a thought upstream of the wide-body order consisting of 3 x A380 and 5 x B748 option conversions. Makes perfect sense to me, so I'll be happy to throw my 0.02 cents in that pot. As for the narrow-body, I fully expect that LH Group will order both the neo and MAX. Partially because they're bound to be as close performance wise as the present generation is today, partially because they have large enough fleets to sustain it and partially because it will benefit LH Technik tremendously. Thus a split order, possibly a bit Airbus heavy, would not surprise me. Neither would it surprise me if the MAX order was assigned to either SN or OS, with LX and LH going neo.

Then, as we move into autumn, the A350/787 battle can be split down existing lines, with SN and OS to take the Boeing and LX and LH to take the Airbus. Nice and tidy.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: robffm2
Posted 2013-02-20 05:05:13 and read 40319 times.

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):
German air-industry newspage aero.de reports (unconfirmed!)
6x 777 for SWISS (most probably 77W)
2x A380 for LH
http://www.aero.de/news-16911/Luftha....html

Interesting, still difficult to believe they would go with the 777.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: ba319-131
Posted 2013-02-20 05:08:52 and read 40271 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 31):
Of the 15 frames currently in the fleet six need to be replaced quite soon as they are older and their leasing contracts expire

- I doubt the leasing companie(s) have any takers lined up for these when they come off lease, no reason why they could not be extended until a suitable 787/A350 delivery is possible.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-02-20 05:11:22 and read 40349 times.

IF Lufthansa orders 777 for SWISS or itself that would be Boeing ulimate revenge. A330-300 seem to be th right replacement for A340's. The 8 long haul will probably be A380 and 748's.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: LH422
Posted 2013-02-20 05:25:01 and read 39982 times.

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):
6x 777 for SWISS (most probably 77W)
2x A380 for LH

Interesting move on the 777. This would bring the LH A380 order up to the current SQ fleet of 19.

EK: 90 orders (31 so far)
SQ: 24 orders (19 so far)
QF: 20 orders (12 so far)
LH: 19 orders (10 so far)

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: PhilInBRN
Posted 2013-02-20 05:32:16 and read 39806 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 42):
A330-300 seem to be th right replacement for A340's.

In this case the A333 is not the ideal replacement. LX needs the range that the A343 provides to serve destinations such as GRU, JNB, HKG etc. It's also well known that Swiss wants to offer more capacity both in the passenger and cargo compartment. In my opinion the 77W fits these requirements best. Another key criteria is availability, as I've indicated in my post above, as six 340s need to be replaced rather sooner than later.

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 41):
no reason why they could not be extended until a suitable 787/A350 delivery is possible.

Hohmeister has stated on several occasions that LX is not happy with the operating costs of their A340-300 fleet. The option of adding some A346s from LH has also been rejected with the same reasons in mind.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-02-20 05:39:05 and read 39693 times.

Quoting gjunnar (Reply 23):
German air-industry newspage aero.de reports (unconfirmed!)

I think "air-industry newspage" is a bit exaggerated.

And as of yesterday, LH was negotiating with Boeing and Airbus, so I doubt that they would confirm / leak information about a decision to an internet site.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-20 05:42:01 and read 39696 times.

In other (little) news LH is bringing back to service one of the stored early-built 744s. Aircraft in question is D-ABVD from 1990 according to skyliner-aviation.de.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: LH422
Posted 2013-02-20 06:54:58 and read 38278 times.

Quoting na (Reply 46):
In other (little) news LH is bringing back to service one of the stored early-built 744s. Aircraft in question is D-ABVD from 1990 according to skyliner-aviation.de.

This invalidates my post All Lufthansa Widebodys Now Have Avod In Y (by LH422 Feb 7 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: PanAm1971
Posted 2013-02-20 07:11:39 and read 38006 times.

I'd love to see another order for 748's! The slots are avialable... LH has been happy with them (according to posts on this site) and they can put them to good, profitable use. Fingers crossed!

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Ferroviarius
Posted 2013-02-20 07:44:49 and read 37375 times.

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 6):
My guess is for 8 77W for LX

Ohnooooo, pleaeaeaease, keep LH / LX / OA / SK 777-free. The 3-3-3 is so un-comfortable as compared to 2-4-2 and the 777 is an awfully loud aircraft compared to RRed 332s / 333s or 342 / 343s for those sitting inside.
There are a number of second hand 345s available, which LX could get at a really cheap price - since nobody wants to have them -, it seems.

Best,

Ferroviarius, not in the airline industry, just a somewhat frequent traveller and happy LX customer.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-02-20 07:55:11 and read 37142 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 45):

Sorry to burst your bubble but it was Lufthansa that pubically stated it would be a blend of both Boeing and Airbus.

I also disagree with everyone saying the MAX doesn't have a chance, LH has a huge fleet and introducing the MAX would make sense under the right circumstances.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: drgmobile
Posted 2013-02-20 07:56:39 and read 37064 times.

I find it very surprising that only Boeing and Airbus were named for the narrowbodies. Particularly since they are looking to phase out 737-300s and -500s and they already have C-Series on order, I would have thought the narrowbody order would be split.

There is a North American carrier I have in mind that I expect will go that route to modernize its replace its current mainline narrowbody fleet in the next year or two.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: flyglobal
Posted 2013-02-20 08:01:03 and read 36878 times.

Quoting CiC (Reply 35):
Are there any 77W Production slots available ?
Maybe LH gets another huuuuuuuuuuuuuge Discount on more 748i to keep the production line ongoing...
I would love to see 748i with Swiss (and maybe Austrian)...

Or do they get a very good discount on the 763ER/W brand new, available now and giving good PR to cover a little the Nightmareliner's desaster?



I 'tell you' guys: (friendly of course): Maybe Boeing will give LH some extra slots on an early delivery date if LH will buy the 777 passenger version to his fleet. Because for Boeing with those few frames they will get the foot in the door for their future planes, especially the 777-9x and probably 787 derivatives.
I don't believe that LH wants to be an all Airbus company. Also they need to keep Airbus (as well as Boeing) under steam for negotiation purpose when the big order for the 343 and 346 replacement comes next year.

Probably along with the 6 777-300ER in speculation they will add another 4 Freighters to replace the next MD11s. Pure speculation though.

Technically they may convert some of the 748i options into those 6 777 orders. I would even guess that LHs price tag for the 748i is lower then most customers pay for their 777s.

Regarding the narrow bodies I wouldn't give the Max a chance.

Regards

Flyglobal

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-02-20 08:22:01 and read 36385 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 50):
Sorry to burst your bubble but it was Lufthansa that pubically stated it would be a blend of both Boeing and Airbus.

I think you are referring to "Lufthansa Group", whereas I was talking about one the group's smaller subsidiaries, Swiss. As far as I am aware, noone at Lufthansa has publicly stated that Swiss will get a blend of both Boeing and Airbus. Of course Lufthansa will avoid going all-Airbus across the whole group of companies. But when it comes to the stand-alone smaller subsidiaries, such a diversifaction is not necessarily helpful (particularly as leverage in negotiations is guaranteed by the principle of centralized purchasing anyway).

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-20 08:26:50 and read 36294 times.

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 52):
Maybe Boeing will give LH some extra slots on an early delivery date if LH will buy the 777 passenger version to his fleet.

Possibly, but I don't see that happening this time around. If LH are going to buy 777, they'd need more than 8 frames, especially if they want to cover LX as well.
There's another widebody order expected for autumn - that's when 777/777x/787/A350 will be in play.
But 8 frames only - I'd be very surprised indeed if that isn't going to be top-ups of types they already have.

[Edited 2013-02-20 08:27:22]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-20 08:29:07 and read 36287 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 54):
If LH are going to buy 777, they'd need more than 8 frames, especially if they want to cover LX as well.

It could just be the first tranche or an interim lift decision.

British Airways has a shedload of 747-400s to replace beyond their A380-800 order, but they started with a small (six frames?) 777-300ER order and have slowly been adding to it (via leases and direct buys).

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-02-20 09:18:59 and read 35246 times.

If it is true that LH is going to buy both Boeing and Airbus planes, and that deliveries are to start in 2015, that leads me to believe that the narrowbodies will be A320NEO's and the widebodies will include 748i's. I base this on the belief that 8 widebodies is not enough of an order to be for a type they are not already flying, and that deliveries starting in 2015 strongly suggests that they are buying types that are now flying, or reasonably close to flying. I see no signs that they are going to buy the MAX; that leaves the 748i as the only Boeing that seems to fit. And 8 aircraft is not enough to be a 787 or A350 order.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2013-02-20 09:31:50 and read 35024 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 55):

British Airways has a shedload of 747-400s to replace beyond their A380-800 order, but they started with a small (six frames?) 777-300ER order and have slowly been adding to it (via leases and direct buys).

Difference being, BA had a shedload of 777s in their fleet already.

I do not believe for a second that LH will ever include the current generation 777 in the passenger fleet of any airline within the Group. Period.

If the wide-body order is not a question of exercising B748 and A380 orders, my second guess is we'll see an additional A330 order - perhaps the newest HGW model - to replace older A340s.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: LOWS
Posted 2013-02-20 09:40:46 and read 34800 times.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 57):
I do not believe for a second that LH will ever include the current generation 777 in the passenger fleet of any airline within the Group. Period.

Sorry to have to do this but OS operates 772s, and LH decided to keep them after they bought OS.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-20 09:48:14 and read 34691 times.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 57):
I do not believe for a second that LH will ever include the current generation 777 in the passenger fleet of any airline within the Group. Period.

Hey, I'm the fellow who has long been on record as believing that LH (and by extension, the LH group) would prefer to be an all-Airbus operator and the only reason they ordered the 747-8 and 777F is because they need something in that market and Airbus does not offer an option.  
Quoting LOWS (Reply 58):
Sorry to have to do this but OS operates 772s, and LH decided to keep them after they bought OS.

One could argue the 777-200ER is not the "current generation" of 777 - the 777-200LR has taken over that role.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2013-02-20 09:54:03 and read 34500 times.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 58):
Sorry to have to do this but OS operates 772s, and LH decided to keep them after they bought OS.

Point taken, and sorry for being unclear. My intention was to say that LH Group will not include the current 777 passenger offerings in any future orders, I am aware OS operate a small number of ERs. Appreciate the cover offered by Stitch; hadn't thought about that angle  

[Edited 2013-02-20 09:55:36]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-20 09:54:17 and read 34486 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 55):
It could just be the first tranche or an interim lift decision.

Possibly, but if it's true that they are deciding on a bigger widebody order in autumn I would expect them to already be in talks with Boeing and Airbus about these anyway; and I'd be very surprised if a package of 777/777X wasn't on the table during those talks.
Thus, I think it would make more sense to just top up existing fleet types at the moment (probably by way of converting orders). They'd be in a much better position to make far-reaching fleet decisions regarding the introduction of new types later on in autumn; plus they could come up with much neater packages for interim lift (e.g. buyback deals on 777 as part of a 777X deal).

Quoting Stitch (Reply 55):
British Airways has a shedload of 747-400s to replace beyond their A380-800 order, but they started with a small (six frames?) 777-300ER order and have slowly been adding to it (via leases and direct buys).

True, but as B777LRF already pointed out, BA (just like AA, who also only ordered a relatively small number of 777-300ERs initially) did already operate 777s (even with GE90s) before their first 777-300ER order.
For LH, the 777 would be a completely new type.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 57):
I do not believe for a second that LH will ever include the current generation 777 in the passenger fleet of any airline within the Group. Period.

You might want to check Austrian Airlines' current fleet  

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: B777LRF
Posted 2013-02-20 09:57:49 and read 34452 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 61):
You might want to check Austrian Airlines' current fleet

Gotcha dude, but just for arguments sake it wasn't LH Group who ordered those 777s  

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-20 10:03:30 and read 34384 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 42):
IF Lufthansa orders 777 for SWISS or itself that would be Boeing ulimate revenge. A330-300 seem to be th right replacement for A340's. The 8 long haul will probably be A380 and 748's.

Why would it be ? Swiss has 14 A333 and 2 more on order, they are very pleased with it. As I stated before Swiss is looking for a larger aircraft to replace some of their older A340s not all of them. They need more capacity on their routes to Brazil and the 77W is the best choice for them as both the A380 and 747-8I are too large for them and the A350-1000 will not be available for some time.

One more argument that this will be for the 777 and not the 747 is that according to the Chief Captain of Lufthansa´s 747 fleet is that they plan to order new long haul aircraft for LH in the third quarter of 2013 and that this order could also contain more 747-8Is.
Swiss is in need for new aircraft soon and this order is being discussed for some time. For Swiss´s need the 777-300 is the right aircraft at this time.

[Edited 2013-02-20 10:12:58]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-20 10:52:24 and read 33330 times.

I don't see LH ordering now and so few 777 for LX. It was mentioned not too long ago that LX had operated LX planes with Edelweiss pilots and FA just because of reduction of overtime of their own staff. A small number of 777 among their all-Airbus lang-haul fleet would cause a serious impact to their flexibility in crew-planning. That makes no sense at all to me. Sorry for all 777-fellows and regardless of excellent fuel-efficiency but I can't see this happen with LX now and for the order mentioned.

I do agree with all those who predict a top-up of models currently used by LH group. The big order in autumn is definitely a different story.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-20 10:59:21 and read 33187 times.

I think Boeing will lose most EU airlines, Boeing has no good name in EU now at all. Nationalism is getting stronger as the economy tanks more and more.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-20 11:16:56 and read 32831 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 65):
I think Boeing will lose most EU airlines, Boeing has no good name in EU now at all. Nationalism is getting stronger as the economy tanks more and more.

Yes, but the number of sales especially for the 777 and 787 say otherwise......

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: SRMD11
Posted 2013-02-20 11:41:37 and read 32406 times.

You can count on me... 6 times 777W's for SWISS. Needed for New York, Sao Paulo and Bangkok route. Later, more 777 join - maybe... That's because a 747-8 Combi won't be built.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-20 11:56:56 and read 32007 times.

The 787 backlog is enormous, so count that out, the 777 has not a huge but not a very small backlog either, the 748 has a very short backlog, don´t know about Airbus backlogs, don't really follow them.

If these framed would be needed in 2 years time the options get few in the end. We have a mega order bubble in aviation IMO, sort of like housing prices 2006..

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-20 12:28:47 and read 31453 times.

What I have read so far, LH is indeed talking with Boeing over the 737Max - that does not have to mean anything but LH would be silly not to get a second offer before signing an order with Airbus right away.

It really seems to be that LX will get 6 777-300ERs which will be delivered in 2015 and 2016. Boeing has offered LH production slots that are currently being reservered by Hong Kong Airlines for 777Fs

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-20 12:34:06 and read 31309 times.

What aircraft has slots open for a 2015 delivery? That should be the question.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: planesmart
Posted 2013-02-20 13:28:23 and read 30774 times.

Commercial aircraft funding and leasing is more similar to commercial property than motor vehicles. It is highly complex, made more exciting by international, as well as domestic tax regimes, and politics (boardroom and the other type). Funding is usually, but not always syndicated, bearing some similarities to insurance. Most syndicates spread risks across countries, types and airlines. There can even be multiple syndicates involved with one aircraft (airframe and engines), let alone an order for multiple aircraft.

And just because an airline signs a 10 year lease, it does not mean that the lease costs are a straight line for that period, or that the composition of the syndicates will remain unchanged.

Providing there is economic life in the airframe, and the operator can still access competitively priced spares, support, and skilled staff, extending leases can be very advantageous. For example, the lease can be extended at a lower annual cost, and depending on the term, the airline may be offered a payments holiday, and / or a $ contribution to an interior upgrade.

It is common for financiers to package new aircraft with old, so the syndicate (minus those who want to exit), have an interest in the new and old aircraft.

Such transactions are influenced significantly by tax considerations, both for manufacturers, operators, financiers and syndicates.

At the end of the day, it's about overall ownership cost. You my be baffled by the apparent higher cost say of an older aircraft type, versus new, but that could simply be down to an element of legal transfer charging.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-02-20 18:12:32 and read 30100 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 63):
Swiss is in need for new aircraft soon and this order is being discussed for some time. For Swiss´s need the 777-300 is the right aircraft at this time.

As mentioned before, I think the A350 makes more sense for LX to maintain Airbus commonality advantages. If the problem is the need for additonal capacity on certain routes before the A350 is available, why not just add a few more A333s to permit frequency on those routes to be increased? They could be leased pending the A350's arrival. Operating a few additional flights a week with an existing type may be cheaper than adding a small number of an entirely new type with all the training, maintenance and other issues that would entail.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Philly65
Posted 2013-02-20 18:42:32 and read 30039 times.

Isn't the 77W considered old technology? Why not hold out until the A350 or other next generation twin aisles. I am sure the 77Ws will be given away as bridge to the 77X.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Fyano773
Posted 2013-02-20 19:26:34 and read 29987 times.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 60):
Point taken, and sorry for being unclear. My intention was to say that LH Group will not include the current 777 passenger offerings in any future orders, I am aware OS operate a small number of ERs. Appreciate the cover offered by Stitch; hadn't thought about that angle

Any future orders? May be not, but certainly they plan to add more T7s within the group:


CEO: Austrian to add two 777s, increase capacity 25%

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-20 19:31:38 and read 30016 times.

Quoting Philly65 (Reply 73):
Isn't the 77W considered old technology? Why not hold out until the A350 or other next generation twin aisles.

It can still be a money-making machine and in the time you wait for an A350-1000 or 777-9X, you could be generating plenty of cash with a 777-300ER.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-20 21:40:40 and read 29810 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 72):
As mentioned before, I think the A350 makes more sense for LX to maintain Airbus commonality advantages. If the problem is the need for additonal capacity on certain routes before the A350 is available, why not just add a few more A333s to permit frequency on those routes to be increased? They could be leased pending the A350's arrival. Operating a few additional flights a week with an existing type may be cheaper than adding a small number of an entirely new type with all the training, maintenance and other issues that would entail.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 72):
Isn't the 77W considered old technology? Why not hold out until the A350 or other next generation twin aisles. I am sure the 77Ws will be given away as bridge to the 77X.

As mentioned before, Swiss is looking for a larger aircraft now. The A350-900 is too small for their needs and the -1000 still a few years away. The 777W for them is the only option if they want a larger plane by 2015.

The reason why LH has not ordered the A350 or the 787 just yet is that they want to see what Boeing does with the 777X. From what I hear LH is very interested in the 777X.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-02-20 22:50:39 and read 29823 times.

There's an interview with Mr. Frantz in today's issue of FAZ and he said that the order for new long range jets will be decided this year. The reporter asked about the 777 and of course did get no answer other than that the decision is pending

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: flood
Posted 2013-02-21 01:41:42 and read 29358 times.

Lufthansa Set To Buy Six Boeing 777-300ERs For Swiss:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_02_21_2013_p03-01-550951.xml

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-02-21 01:49:10 and read 29169 times.

The interesting part in that article is that the supervisory board will decide how the narrow body order will be split between Boeing and Airbus.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: flood
Posted 2013-02-21 02:01:50 and read 29064 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 79):
The interesting part in that article is that the supervisory board will decide how the narrow body order will be split between Boeing and Airbus.

I'm still a little skeptical of a split narrowbody order. Didn't LH state just a few months ago they were seeking to streamline and reduce the number of types and engines in their fleet? As was suggested with the 777s, perhaps availability again plays a big role.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-21 02:42:03 and read 28862 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 75):
It can still be a money-making machine and in the time you wait for an A350-1000 or 777-9X, you could be generating plenty of cash with a 777-300ER.

If you are clever and lease the plane for 8 or 10 years perhaps, oand if you install the infamous 10-abreast cattle class onboard. But when A350-1000 and 777X come the 77W will suffer very high depreciation.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-02-21 03:01:56 and read 28765 times.

Quoting na (Reply 81):
If you are clever and lease the plane for 8 or 10 years perhaps, oand if you install the infamous 10-abreast cattle class onboard

I sincerely hope LX (nearly wrote SR!) won't be going down the 10-abreast route! Surely the 77W will give them enough extra capacity without needing to go 10 abreast!

Good news for LX!

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-21 03:02:43 and read 28768 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 78):
Lufthansa Set To Buy Six Boeing 777-300ERs For Swiss:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/avd_02_21_2013_p03-01-550951.xml

That rumour seems to be getting some traction now. I'd still be surprised if it happened that way, but let's see - sure keeps the suspense up...

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-21 03:15:53 and read 28741 times.

Just found the FAZ interview online. In it, Franz says this:

Quote:
Während jetzt der Ersatz von unseren Airbus A320- und Boeing 737-Flugzeugen ansteht, werden wir demnächst über die Nachfolger-Langstreckenmodelle von A330 und A340 entscheiden.

Translation:

While we are presently looking at the replacement of our A320 and 737 planes, we are going to decide about the replacement of our long-haul types A330 and A340 a bit later on.

Unless he's really splitting hairs here - 6 77W for Swiss would replace A340, but that's not really the big decision about replacing the whole A340 fleet in the LH Group - I think that for the 8 frame-order, this statement points at a top-up of long-haul planes that are already in the fleet.
I'll admit this is open to interpretation, though.

He also stated that no decision about types has been made yet and negotiations with Airbus and Boeing are ongoing.

Source (in German)

[Edited 2013-02-21 03:16:20]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: ZRH
Posted 2013-02-21 03:22:20 and read 28651 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 78):
Lufthansa Set To Buy Six Boeing 777-300ERs For Swiss:

I actually only believe it when I see the birds in SWISS livery. To have an extra pilot corps for only 6 frames makes absolutely no sense. Especially when you also consider the pilot shortage they already have. They would lose flexibility.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Heavierthanair
Posted 2013-02-21 04:34:49 and read 28286 times.

G´day

If Swiss is really that desperate to get six larger aircraft to raise capacity on some routes and to replace their oldest A 343´s coming off lease then I am sure Airbus could/will offer an interim lease of A 346´s to cover this requirement. Enough of those in good condition are available. While these are thirstier than new 773 their fixed costs would be substantially lower, and they would offer commonality with the existing fleet not adding additional headaches crewing them. Oddball and surely expensive 773´s could be avoided until the replacements for the 333/343´s come in before the end of the decade.  

I for one will avoid flying those if they come with 10 abreast,    I´d rather detour and fly their "sisters" product even if that´s a good ole 346   



Cheers

Peter

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2013-02-21 05:14:55 and read 28074 times.

The Aviation Week artricle is very detailed and clear (although of course may not be correct):

"Lufthansa is close to placing an order for six Boeing 777-300ERs that will be allocated to its Swiss International Air Lines subsidiary.....

Lufthansa is expected to make a broader decision for next generation aircraft, such as the Airbus A350 or the Boeing 787, later this year. That decision will mainly address the replacement need for the German airline’s 48 A340-300s/-600s. Part of this larger order also could include fleet needs for Swiss and Austrian. In addition to the four 777s, Austrian operates a fleet of six aging 767-300ERs....

Lufthansa, which recently reduced its Boeing 747-8 commitment from 20 aircraft to 19, also is understood to be planning an order for two Airbus A380s. The airline already has placed orders for 17."

I am surprised not to see at least 1 B748, given the strong hint when LH cancelled one of their initial 20 recently. But if this is correct, they will end up with 19 each B748 and A388.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-02-21 05:52:46 and read 27872 times.

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 86):
then I am sure Airbus could/will offer an interim lease of A 346´s to cover this requirement.

Where would Airbus get them? The line is closed, and to the best of my knowledge there are not six unemployed A346's floating around.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Heavierthanair
Posted 2013-02-21 06:02:19 and read 27829 times.

G´day

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 88):
Where would Airbus get them?

Airbus are taking back some from Virgin Atlantic, also Thai´s are available, likely others, all in fairly good shape.

Cheers

Peter

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-21 06:39:44 and read 27692 times.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 88):
Where would Airbus get them? The line is closed, and to the best of my knowledge there are not six unemployed A346's floating around.
Airbus Asset Management lists exactly six unemployed A340-600 as being or becoming available for lease/sale:
MSN 383
MSN 391
MSN 416 (incidentally the only A340-600 I've flown on so far)
MSN 449
MSN 371
MSN 376
All six are ex Virgin planes. The first four (delivered 2002) are available immediately (for sale/lease), while the last two (delivered 2001) will become available in July and October (for sale only), respectively.
So it's definitely possible to source six A340-600 from Airbus directly; you can probably source a few more if you talk to Thai, ILFC and others.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 87):
The Aviation Week artricle is very detailed and clear (although of course may not be correct):

Well, it claims 6 777-300ER and 2 A380. That's as much detail as it gives, quoting anonymous sources.

I'm still doubtful about this, I have to admit - as Heavierthanair pointed out: "Oddball and surely expensive 773´s could be avoided until the replacements for the 333/343´s come in before the end of the decade"

[Edited 2013-02-21 06:41:50]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-02-21 08:07:30 and read 27294 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 90):
I'm still doubtful about this, I have to admit - as Heavierthanair pointed out: "Oddball and surely expensive 773´s could be avoided until the replacements for the 333/343´s come in before the end of the decade"

But if they need to replace them now, due to lease expiration, there is not a lot of choice, although as anfromme points out there are in fact six available A346's. But they would be more expensive to operate than brand new 77W's. And while 77W's built today are going to suffer in comparison to A3510's and 777X's to be built in the future, availability will keep the 77W values high. A new aircraft will only save operating costs if you can get your hands on it and fly it (and pay for it.) 77W's will continue to be in demand, even if new ones are not, for a long time.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-21 08:52:09 and read 27132 times.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 91):
But if they need to replace them now, due to lease expiration, there is not a lot of choice,

I'm pretty sure the lead-time on any of the A340-600s that Airbus have available is much shorter than the lead-time on any newly-ordered 77W.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 91):
But they would be more expensive to operate than brand new 77W's.

Yep, but the A340-600 are available right now, require next to no additional pilot qualification within LX, and cost a lot less to purchase than brand new 77W.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 91):
And while 77W's built today are going to suffer in comparison to A3510's and 777X's to be built in the future, availability will keep the 77W values high. A new aircraft will only save operating costs if you can get your hands on it and fly it (and pay for it.) 77W's will continue to be in demand, even if new ones are not, for a long time.

Quite possibly, but I still don't see why LH would order 6 (or even 8) oddball 77W now if they're going to order A350/787/77X in the autumn anyway. It would be much easier (and probably cheaper in terms of negotiating clout) to come up with a comprehensive package of interim 77Ws as part of that bigger order. Much like SQ for instance arranged interim A330s when they placed their A350 order.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: indcwby
Posted 2013-02-21 08:58:44 and read 27113 times.

So question:

When I hear Short Haul, the A320/B737s don't come to mind. Per their fleet site,

http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/fleet.html

They define ERJ/CRJ/ATR/DH8s as Short Haul aircraft while A320/B737s are Medium Haul. So, could the be looking for smaller aircraft instead?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: AustrianZRH
Posted 2013-02-21 09:15:40 and read 27059 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 82):
I sincerely hope LX (nearly wrote SR!) won't be going down the 10-abreast route! Surely the 77W will give them enough extra capacity without needing to go 10 abreast!

I hope so too but I fear they will. They have 17.0" seats in Y on their A340, 10 abreast in a 77W would result in the same seat width. And bean counters have a tendency to stuff as many seats as possible into their planes...

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-21 09:22:58 and read 27045 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 92):
Quite possibly, but I still don't see why LH would order 6 (or even 8) oddball 77W now if they're going to order A350/787/77X in the autumn anyway. It would be much easier (and probably cheaper in terms of negotiating clout) to come up with a comprehensive package of interim 77Ws as part of that bigger order. Much like SQ for instance arranged interim A330s when they placed their A350 order.

Perhaps LH (and/or the Group) has (have) internally chosen the 787 and 777X for their widebody replacement and these 77Ws are that interim option for LX, whom needs larger lift "now"?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-02-21 09:36:07 and read 26950 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 93):

They define ERJ/CRJ/ATR/DH8s as Short Haul aircraft while A320/B737s are Medium Haul. So, could the be looking for smaller aircraft instead?

But they said that they were talking to Airbus and Boeing. They don't build any smaller aircraft.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 95):
Perhaps LH (and/or the Group) has (have) internally chosen the 787 and 777X for their widebody replacement and these 77Ws are that interim option for LX, whom needs larger lift "now"?

That would make sense. I certainly don't see them ordering 6 77W's now unless they have already made a decision that Boeing widebodies are going to play a big part in their future. If they have then it makes no sense to do anything else.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: SCAT15F
Posted 2013-02-21 09:44:28 and read 26974 times.

Si its pretty much confirmed that there will be no 748's included in this 108 aircraft order?

Very disappointing and discouraging.   

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-21 10:06:16 and read 26862 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 93):
They define ERJ/CRJ/ATR/DH8s as Short Haul aircraft while A320/B737s are Medium Haul. So, could the be looking for smaller aircraft instead?

If that was the case LH would be talking to the wrong people as they have confirmed they are in negotiations with Airbus and Boeing.
Also, in the FAZ interview I linked above, Franz talks about "medium-haul" and replacing their 737/A320.
So I think "short-haul" is a slight misrepresentation in news reports and elsewhere in the context of this order.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-21 10:09:15 and read 26916 times.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 93):
They define ERJ/CRJ/ATR/DH8s as Short Haul aircraft while A320/B737s are Medium Haul. So, could the be looking for smaller aircraft instead?

No, they clearly mention Airbus and Boeing. In the Interview with the CEO of LH he clearly says that this order is to replace their 737 and A320 fleet.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 95):
Perhaps LH (and/or the Group) has (have) internally chosen the 787 and 777X for their widebody replacement and these 77Ws are that interim option for LX, whom needs larger lift "now"?

        You got it - LH is very interested in the 77X. That is why there is no decsion yet. There was a hint in the internal LH magazine a few months ago when asked about the A350 and 787 decison the fleet planer of LH said that there is no a third option which LH is very interested in. As this was posted here on a.net many believed the A330NEO might be the third option but it really is the 777X.

My guess: 787-10 A330 and A343 replacement 777X A346 replacement.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 79):
The interesting part in that article is that the supervisory board will decide how the narrow body order will be split between Boeing and Airbus.

Indeed very interesting -maybe not for LH mainline but some 737Maxs could end up with Austrian ? On the other hand LH always had a mix of 737s and A320s in their fleet. Would be nice. Really like the design of the Max with the new winglets.

[Edited 2013-02-21 10:20:04]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-21 10:36:18 and read 26750 times.

I think having mixed fleets is a good choice, fault tolerant, redundant etc And if orders are big a way to get your fleet faster.

If one OEMs aircraft is grounded the other OEMs will probably not be etc

AA made a wise choice with their NB order, they will probably get their full order faster as they have about 50/50?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-02-21 10:51:39 and read 26722 times.

It would be interesting in LH got any 737MAXs for their short haul fleet; current plans call for 737s to be retired by 2016 ... just before what would have been their 50th anniversary of 737 operations, something which really deserves to be celebrated! Don't know when they would get their MAXs, but presumably in around 2018-2020, depending on when delivery slots are available.

Is SN Brussels Airlines going to benefit from this order? Those RJs must be a candidate for replacement!

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: ba319-131
Posted 2013-02-21 11:52:21 and read 26770 times.

Folks, don't get wound up by the fact the need to acquire new machines is being driven by the leases expiring.

Nobody is beating a path to the leasing companies to pick these up when the LX leases expire, there are plenty of A340-300's out there to be picked up.

In pure operational and long term fleet planning, it makes perfect sense to add a low cost the former Virgin A340-600's to the fleet until such time as A350/787 are ready to enter the fleet.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: SQ22
Posted 2013-02-21 12:33:00 and read 26594 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 80):

I'm still a little skeptical of a split narrowbody order. Didn't LH state just a few months ago they were seeking to streamline and reduce the number of types and engines in their fleet? As was suggested with the 777s, perhaps availability again plays a big role.

Me, too and you're right.

http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...ndards-future-aircraft-orders-1016

We had a Thread about it, but I couldn't find it.

With this in mind I could see 77W's only as interim solutions as well

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-02-21 12:52:44 and read 26459 times.

Quoting flood (Reply 80):
I'm still a little skeptical of a split narrowbody order.

Well, the split could be 100%-0%   

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-21 13:15:29 and read 26416 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 105):
Well, the split could be 100%-0%   

The only reason LH might split the NB-order would be in my opinion to give LH-Technik, the highly successful maintenance department of LH, the chance to know both the NEO and the MAX first hand.  

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2013-02-21 13:29:02 and read 26356 times.

My final guess goes to six 77W's and two A380's for the wideboadied order. Does anyone besides me think LH could possibly split the order between the NEO and the Max??

KH

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-02-21 13:37:18 and read 26287 times.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 106):

Agreed but could it also be simply the MAX and NEO will both be great aircraft and neither Boeing nor Airbus can fulfill LH needs in a certain timeframe - like AA.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-02-21 13:53:20 and read 26211 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 108):
but could it also be simply the MAX and NEO will both be great aircraft and neither Boeing nor Airbus can fulfill LH needs in a certain timeframe - like AA.

That could also be a possibility. Though LH is not in the market for so many NB-airplanes as AA was at the time.   But with so many orders for the NEO and the MAX already, delivery slots could be hard to get in certain time-frames.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-02-21 13:59:20 and read 26190 times.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 109):

While its no 460 plane order - 100 narrow bodies is a lot of delivery slots tied up  

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: dbo861
Posted 2013-02-22 02:29:58 and read 25258 times.

Quoting na (Reply 81):
If you are clever and lease the plane for 8 or 10 years perhaps, oand if you install the infamous 10-abreast cattle class onboard. But when A350-1000 and 777X come the 77W will suffer very high depreciation.

I'm not sure the depreciation will be as high as you think. When the 3510 and 777X become operational these 77Ws will still be a very capable aircraft and both manufacturers will likely have huge backlogs for the new jets. Just like with the 787, they won't be producing the new aircraft at full speed immediately either (and hopefully we won't any big of hiccups as the 787 has had). In this 8 to 10 year time frame, these 77Ws will still be relatively new with lots of life left in them, and when you factor in adding yet another brand new type, of high demand aircraft, it might be the smarter/cheaper option to keep the older generation aircraft in the fleet than to buy the shiny new fancy (expensive) aircraft. If not, I'm sure they would have no problem finding a home for the 77Ws. Like I said, the 77Ws won't become obsolete overnight.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 110):
While its no 460 plane order - 100 narrow bodies is a lot of delivery slots tied up  

Yeah, I wonder with all of the 100+ and sometimes 2-300+ orders for the MAX and NEO we've seen, how many delivery slots are available in the first several years of production. Depending on how quickly these aircraft are needed, they might have no choice but to split the order.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2013-02-22 03:57:35 and read 24883 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 99):
777X A346 replacement.

Which would also explain the absence of a 748 top-up order as the 748 was intended largely to replace the A346s

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: SCAT15F
Posted 2013-02-22 07:35:01 and read 24257 times.

Why not 6 777W's and 2 748i's for the top-up order?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-22 07:56:30 and read 24214 times.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 112):
Which would also explain the absence of a 748 top-up order as the 748 was intended largely to replace the A346s

Wrong. All 748s ordered so far are replacements for the pre-1992 built batch of 744s. Options/Top-up orders would be for the second batch which will be replaced from the end of the decade onwards. No A346 replacement is planned for this decade. While I could see a chance for the 777X as A346 replacement starting 10 years from now, I think the A350-1000 is more likely. With it they could begin A346 replacement approx. 3 or 4 years earlier than with the 777X.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-22 10:24:17 and read 23898 times.

Apparently the order does also include 30 CSeries to replace the Fokker fleet of Austrian:
http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...aircraft-centralize-administration

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-22 11:35:08 and read 23640 times.

Isn´t the 77W a huge step up from A343? Unbeatable economics, but only if you have the passenger numbers to fill it.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-22 13:10:16 and read 23290 times.

LH has not only reduced its own 737 fleet but also replaced 737NG at OS by 320. Quite a lot of 320 family aircraft are on order still for LH.
It would be a surprise for me if they would buy any 737 now, considering the move of LH's Europe-operations into Germanwings, an all-Airbus operator.

What kind of benefit would the Max provide the Neo can't?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-02-22 13:56:38 and read 23144 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 116):
Isn´t the 77W a huge step up from A343? Unbeatable economics, but only if you have the passenger numbers to fill it.

LX evidently has the passenger numbers as they want/need a larger plane.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Dash9
Posted 2013-02-22 15:25:31 and read 22859 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 115):
Apparently the order does also include 30 CSeries to replace the Fokker fleet of Austrian:

Ordering a second batch of a jet that as not fly yet would be a nice vote of confidence for BBD

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-22 23:32:58 and read 22244 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 118):

Maybe they could even fill 380 seats in a 748i? As that frame could be delivered before 2015 for sure, it has empty slots right now, along with 380 seats you can have a decent load of cargo too. Under 400 seats in a 748i is a very comfortable cabin IMO, much more so than in a 77W.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-23 03:58:26 and read 21776 times.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 117):
LH has not only reduced its own 737 fleet but also replaced 737NG at OS by 320. Quite a lot of 320 family aircraft are on order still for LH.

Here's a breakdown of pending orders as of 28-02-2013:
LH: 1x A319, 47x A320 (including 30 NEO), 7x A321
AUA: none
LX: 1x A320, 2x A321
SN: none
4U: 6x A319
Total of 34 CEO and 30 NEO.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 117):
It would be a surprise for me if they would buy any 737 now, considering the move of LH's Europe-operations into Germanwings, an all-Airbus operator.

What kind of benefit would the Max provide the Neo can't?

I wouldn't suggest that LH are going to order MAX exclusively. They've already ordered 30NEOs, and it would not make much sense to order 100 MAX alongside these. But I wouldn't rule out a split of 65 MAX and 35 NEO (or 50:50 or similar). They've been operating 737s and A320 alongside each other for ages, so they do have some experience in that field.
Then again - LH did state they want to reduce their fleet complexity, and the MAX would not only introduce another type, but also another engine type (as LH chose the GTF for their NEOs).

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: autothrust
Posted 2013-02-23 07:01:13 and read 21312 times.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 112):
Which would also explain the absence of a 748 top-up order as the 748 was intended largely to replace the A346s

Huh? No the 747-8 were inteded to replace the 747-400.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Semaex
Posted 2013-02-23 07:14:36 and read 21287 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 115):
Apparently the order does also include 30 CSeries to replace the Fokker fleet of Austrian:
http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...ation

What I find more interesting in that short article than the 30 CSeries is that LH is going to move its Passage HQ to Frankfurt and CLH HQ to Munich by 2017.
Did I really miss something, or is this more of a rumour than actual news?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-23 07:44:46 and read 21164 times.

Semaex, it is no rumor, it is a matter of fact. Have a look at reply 84 of anfromme, there you find a link to an interview of C. Franz with FAZ. Cityline HQ will be moved to MUC, too.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-23 08:08:53 and read 21058 times.

Isn't the MAX much bigger than 737 300/500? Does LH really need that? I thought CS 300 would be the most suitable replacement in terms of pax capacity.
And how would a possible order of MAX go along with the shift of many LH connections into 4U? IIRC, 30 aircraft or so will be moved from LH to 4U. This will be most probably only Airbus.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Semaex
Posted 2013-02-23 11:21:14 and read 20680 times.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 125):
IIRC, 30 aircraft or so will be moved from LH to 4U. This will be most probably only Airbus.

AFAIK also CRJ will be moved to 4U. If that is only on the balance sheet or also crew and aircraft, I don't know.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-23 12:32:18 and read 20679 times.

Those CRJ900 will not be transferred to 4U but Eurowings is going to operate them on behalf of 4U. According to LH website:
http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/pre.../2012/october/11/article/2240.html

"As many as 30 aircraft that currently serve Lufthansa’s point-to-point routes will be transferred to Germanwings from January 2013. Lufthansa’s regional subsidiary Eurowings, which provides point-to-point services exclusively for Lufthansa, will continue to operate as an independent subsidiary on regional routes. However, in future it will operate on behalf of Germanwings."

The 737 Classic in LH's fleet are quite old, it is unlikely to see them in 4U colors. It's gonna be A320 family types to be moved along with cockpit crew and FA.

Update:
http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/company/themen/germanwings.html

"The airline will launch its new products on the market on 1 July 2013. As of then, aircraft in the Lufthansa fleet earmarked for the “new Germanwings” will also be gradually converted and transferred."

Back to the topic of this thread: The planes to be purchased won't be for LH only, but for the group's airlines as well.

http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/pre...2013/february/19/article/2350.html

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-23 21:56:45 and read 20320 times.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 127):
Back to the topic of this thread: The planes to be purchased won't be for LH only, but for the group's airlines as well.

http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/pre...2013/february/19/article/2350.html

So it is official that the 100 plane narrowbody order will be split between Airbus and Boeing aircraft

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-02-24 00:22:30 and read 19993 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 128):
So it is official that the 100 plane narrowbody order will be split between Airbus and Boeing aircraft

Personally, I think they're just saying the total 108 plane order will be split between the two manufacturers.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-24 00:24:25 and read 19992 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 128):

No, columba, it does not necessarily mean the NB order will be split. There is a significant difference between the German and the English version of the statement. The German version states an order for 108 long- and medium-haul aircraft of Airbus and Boeing. The English translation says 100 NB of A and B. Being a German airline I would expect German version is right.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-24 00:28:10 and read 20002 times.

100 aircraft of either A or B? Or is it "and"? Now we will have to debate this, what is the meaning of those words..  

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-24 00:34:29 and read 19968 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 131):

The headline of the statement is more than clear: a total of 108 planes, WB and NB.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-02-24 00:39:52 and read 19949 times.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 132):

I was trying to be smart like a lawyer, bending words..

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-24 00:51:58 and read 19914 times.

Quoting sweair (Reply 133):

Got it.

But let's get serious. Why should an airline that is phasing out a specific type throughout its entire group plan to buy it again? And as the planes are to enter the fleet from 2015 to 2025 I don't see availability an issue here particularly for NBs.
I guess, WB are available at short notice.

[Edited 2013-02-24 01:15:57]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-02-24 07:10:10 and read 19306 times.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 125):
Isn't the MAX much bigger than 737 300/500?

737-7MAX would be equivalent to 737-300. The size category of the A318/737-500/737-600 is really served by larger regional jets, e.g. E-190, CS-100, and the likes.
Turned out that a double-downsize of a popular medium-haul plane doesn't quite cut it any more these days, largely due to the extra structural weight that introduces.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 134):
Why should an airline that is phasing out a specific type throughout its entire group plan to buy it again?

Because 737MAX is two generations removed from the 737-300? Also, any 737MAX would be new, not 20+ years old (as the youngest LH 737 are theses days).
I'm not saying LH are going to order MAX, but I definitely wouldn't rule it out, either.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-24 07:21:51 and read 19275 times.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 130):
No, columba, it does not necessarily mean the NB order will be split. There is a significant difference between the German and the English version of the statement. The German version states an order for 108 long- and medium-haul aircraft of Airbus and Boeing. The English translation says 100 NB of A and B. Being a German airline I would expect German version is right.


Yes the German article can be understood this way but if you read the headline it clearly says "Mittel- und Langfristbedarf auf der Kurz- und Mittelstrecke wird durch Airbus- und Boeing-Flugzeuge abgesichert" which I would translate into:

"Midterm and long term demand for short and medium haul planes will be secured by Airbus and Boeing aircraft

I am saying it will be a split, what I am not saying that these planes will fly for LH mainline could also be OS, SN or LX

[Edited 2013-02-24 07:31:27]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-24 07:34:28 and read 19210 times.

Unless Boeing makes an offer no one can resist the shorthaul order will be for Airbus I am sure, although a split is possible. As more and more flights will be done by lowcost (Germanwings), which means more seats, the width of the cabin becomes more important and there the A320 has the edge over the narrow 737. A number of LCC shorthaul flights in India recently have shown me the importance of that fact! For Asians that might not be so important, but Europeans arent that short or slim!

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-24 07:40:36 and read 19198 times.

Quoting na (Reply 137):
Unless Boeing makes an offer no one can resist the shorthaul order will be for Airbus !

One word: "Availablity" both the Max and Neo have huge backlogs. Because of that many airlines already have done so, just look at American Airlines or Norwegian.

[Edited 2013-02-24 07:43:12]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-02-24 20:49:23 and read 18594 times.

Quoting na (Reply 137):
As more and more flights will be done by lowcost (Germanwings), which means more seats, the width of the cabin becomes more important and there the A320 has the edge over the narrow 737. A number of LCC shorthaul flights in India recently have shown me the importance of that fact!

Huh ? By that logic, FR and WN should be an all Airbus fleet but alas the 737 is working fine for them !

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-24 22:30:36 and read 18525 times.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 135):

That is right for LH's birds, but not for those recently phased out at OS. The last one, 737NG was not even 7 years old when it has been sold. That is why I would expect an all-320 order for the group except maybe some more CSeries.

[Edited 2013-02-24 22:32:46]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-25 01:04:05 and read 18265 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 139):
Huh ? By that logic, FR and WN should be an all Airbus fleet but alas the 737 is working fine for them !

Working "fine", for their beancounters maybe, not so much for the passengers. I used to fly FR from time to time, since 2007 I dont do that anymore, and I know others who dont also. Those planes are too tight.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: vin2basketball
Posted 2013-02-25 18:14:21 and read 17127 times.

Quoting na (Reply 141):
Working "fine", for their beancounters maybe, not so much for the passengers. I used to fly FR from time to time, since 2007 I dont do that anymore, and I know others who dont also. Those planes are too tight.

But they work fine for passengers too -- at least in the sense that passengers will not book away from an airline just because it flies 737s vs. A320s. Passengers flying economy class care about price/schedules and timings primarily; very few traveling in Y make decisions based on comfort. In J class (Euro style) it makes some difference I suppose but again I doubt its a deal breaker as most flying short haul J within Europe are likely business travelers whose demand is driven primarily by schedules again (the exception is the odd 5+ hour route served with narrowbodies to the Middle East or Africa). If you look at US domestic F class/Narrowbody regional J class for most of the world it makes little difference. This is also why I think the EU carriers might bite the bullet and just configure the neo/MAX, which will have 6hrs + range to offer new routes, with domestic style F (perhaps even 321neo and 737 MAX 8 with lie-flat long haul J seats for trans-Atlantic flights and red-eyes to middle east/Africa with strong premium demand (where right now widebodies are operated -- remember: Only ~3800 mi range needed for flights US East coast to Europe

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-25 22:22:13 and read 16934 times.

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 142):

Fully agree with you, vin2basketball. The majority of pax wouldn't recognize if they are sitting in an A or B plane. They know which airline they are booked on and if they feel comfortable. Finally, the seet-configuration an airline puts on a plane makes the difference.
Only frequent travellers would make the difference, yet their decision for a particular flight is most of the times given by timing and price and often not even in their hands, but made by dedicated travel dept. in their companies.

As the new order can be considered as a REPLACEMENT of existing planes for several subs. of LH group, I would expect fleet-commonality plays a major role here. Just wondering that CSeries has not been mentioned in the LH statement. Maybe this is a separate order outside this A+B deal.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: autothrust
Posted 2013-02-25 23:58:55 and read 16737 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 99):
You got it - LH is very interested in the 77X.

How do you know that? The 77X is not even defined or decided. It's a paper plane at the moment.

While the A350 will fly this year, the TrentXWB is already showing very promising economics and it would maintain the commonality in the fleet.

Apart from this the A350 will offer lower maintenance cost.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 85):
I actually only believe it when I see the birds in SWISS livery. To have an extra pilot corps for only 6 frames makes absolutely no sense. Especially when you also consider the pilot shortage they already have. They would lose flexibility.

      Couldn't agree more.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: na
Posted 2013-02-26 01:18:27 and read 16462 times.

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 141):
But they work fine for passengers too

ONLY because they often offer the cheapest tickets. But that isnt the case as often anymore as it used to be.
For someone living in and around Frankfurt a LH flight is often the better choice, just fractionally more expensive when booked early. Add the cost of additional bustravel (20 Euros on top of FRA) and a lot of time (1 1/2 hous one-way) to fly Ryanair, something one shouldnt forget when looking at the ticket prices.

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 141):
-- at least in the sense that passengers will not book away from an airline just because it flies 737s vs. A320s.

I did.
Dont get me wrong, the narrowness of the 737 vs. the A320 is only decicive on LCCs which have a seat pitch obviously measured after dwarfs and kids.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: flyglobal
Posted 2013-02-26 01:23:20 and read 16502 times.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 143):
How do you know that? The 77X is not even defined or decided. It's a paper plane at the moment.



Expect that an LH representative will sit on almost all tables when Boeing or Airbus are considering new or updated planes.
Remember when LH insisted on the long fuselage for the 748i, while Emirates opted for the longer range.

Same maybe here: LH may want to have a 777x for other purpose then other airlines may want. They may accept lower max range here for other issues, then emirates may prefer (long range).

So depending on the outcome of the round table and Boeing's final concept it may influence the decision what LH will take at the end.

So yes: LH is interested in the 777x when it suits their plans better then the competitors offers.

regards

Flyglobal

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: autothrust
Posted 2013-02-26 02:08:12 and read 16354 times.

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 145):
LH is interested in the 777x when it suits their plans better then the competitors offers.

That applies to any airline. Boeing won't make the plane just to make LH happy and give the plane they want.

Boeing will listen to all airlines and then make a trade off.

That does not mean LH will order it, only because they are interested.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-26 10:05:15 and read 15858 times.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 143):
How do you know that? The 77X is not even defined or decided. It's a paper plane at the moment.
Quoting autothrust (Reply 143):
Apart from this the A350 will offer lower maintenance cost.

Didn´t you just contradict yourself ? How can you say that the A350 will offer lower maintenance costs and on the hand say the 777X is nothing but a paper plane yet ?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: seahawk
Posted 2013-02-26 10:57:34 and read 15665 times.

I can see the MAX as an interesting option for Germanwings.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Paolo92
Posted 2013-02-26 13:01:21 and read 15471 times.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 148):

I can see the MAX as an interesting option for Germanwings.

If it proves well with Swiss, I could see the dense variant of the CS300 for Germanwings, or also the high density variant...
They are using A319 at 144 or 150 seats... So a CS300 at 150 or 160 seats would be a perfect replacement.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-02-26 18:43:42 and read 15136 times.

Quoting na (Reply 136):
the width of the cabin becomes more important and there the A320 has the edge over the narrow 737.

At shoulder level it is insignificant. I would suggest there needs to be a more compelling reason than this to choose an A320 over a 737.   

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: autothrust
Posted 2013-02-26 23:38:50 and read 14986 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 147):
Didn´t you just contradict yourself ?

No. Haven't you seen the recent picture from the A350?

Quoting columba (Reply 147):
How can you say that the A350 will offer lower maintenance costs

It's for (almost)the same reasons why the 787 will offer lower maintenance costs over a A330.

It's pretty obvious the 777X won't feature such a extensive use of CFRP.

[Edited 2013-02-26 23:41:13]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Semaex
Posted 2013-02-27 00:56:21 and read 15155 times.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 151):
It's pretty obvious the 777X won't feature such a extensive use of CFRP.

There's quite a lot more to maintain on an airplane than just CFRP panels.
And anyways, why wouldn't a brand-new 77X not feature as much of it? If that's the future then Boeing would be stupid to remain in the past.
And overall it's a pretty dangerous statement to say how mx costs are going to be while the one plane is only on paper and the other hasn't flown yet. Crystal-balling, nothing else.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: autothrust
Posted 2013-02-27 02:16:26 and read 14966 times.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 152):
why wouldn't a brand-new 77X not feature as much of it?

Because Boeing would have to redesign the 777 from scratch and they never would be able to pull it out until 2017.

Also the development costs would be like >5billion$.

I don't say Boeing will not add any CFRP but it will be limited and mostly for weight reduction measures. Then with a new engine and wing it will be a competitive plane.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-02-27 05:11:54 and read 14638 times.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 152):
There's quite a lot more to maintain on an airplane than just CFRP panels.

I think it is pretty well established that CFRP requires less maintenance than aluminum. That is why people can confidently state that maintenance costs will be lower for the 787 and A350 than the A330 and 777. Aluminum fatigues and is fastened by rivets, which over the life of an airframe contributes to a massive amount of required maintenance, much more than what is required for the same structure made out of CFRP. As to other systems, yes, they will require maintenance, but it should be pretty similar between the planes. Also, I do not believe that CFRP structures are life limited, as are Al structures.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-02-27 05:36:49 and read 14539 times.

This thread is already quite long, so it can be that I missed it if ot was mentioned before.

The A319/320/321 has the possibility to handle luggage in containers and Lufthansa is using this feature.
It cuts down on personal and turnaround time.

Would it not be a step back for LH to got the B 737 and bulk again?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: seahawk
Posted 2013-02-27 06:18:39 and read 14411 times.

Not for Germanwings for example, as they are doing point to point connections outside the hubs.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-02-27 06:26:34 and read 14380 times.

.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 155):
Would it not be a step back for LH to got the B 737 and bulk again?

I was going to ask the same question. The A319/320/321 do have a bulk compartment as well, but the majority of the luggage as well as the freight is loaded in AKH or similar containers.

It does not matter if that are hub flights or point to point flights. A through container is only viable if the feeder flight is a widebody as well, which is, after the A300 phase out, no longer the case.

as long as the 737MAX is not containerized, the thumb will likely go down.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: abba
Posted 2013-02-27 08:49:54 and read 14031 times.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 152):
And anyways, why wouldn't a brand-new 77X not feature as much of it? If that's the future then Boeing would be stupid to remain in the past.


If Boeing were not to keep the past in certain significant ways, they wouldn't be doing a 777x but a Y3...

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Heavierthanair
Posted 2013-02-27 09:23:11 and read 13932 times.

G'day

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 157):
as long as the 737MAX is not containerized, the thumb will likely go down

Germanwings does not use cans, so I guess for them that is not an issue. But then again, they have selected the 'bus for some reason, and that with IAE engines.   

LH on the other side seem to be almost religiously avoiding to become too reliant on one supplier.    So my    prediction is that they will buy large narrowbodied from both A and B even though it may be at a cost   


Cheers

Peter

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Paolo92
Posted 2013-02-27 10:29:45 and read 13769 times.

LH has all A319 bulk and A320/321 containerized.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-27 13:16:12 and read 13531 times.

Quoting Paolo92 (Reply 149):
If it proves well with Swiss, I could see the dense variant of the CS300 for Germanwings, or also the high density variant...
They are using A319 at 144 or 150 seats... So a CS300 at 150 or 160 seats would be a perfect replacement.

I would hope the CS500. It needs a launch customer! And Germanwings would prove perfect.

Not even the ER. Just the CS500. 150 pax at the normal 32" pitch. 1500nm range (@max payload) would cover all of Europe and the Mediterranean/North Africa. And I'd be willing to bet that fuel burn and CASM on the CS500 is about the same as the A319NEO (see figures from link...take a stab at extrapolating for the CS500).

http://www.aspireaviation.com/2012/0...t-obstacle-for-bombardier-cseries/

All that said, I doubt LH would ever be that adventurous. It'll be more Airbus/Boeing.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-02-27 22:08:14 and read 13119 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 161):
All that said, I doubt LH would ever be that adventurous. It'll be more Airbus/Boeing.

If the plane fits their needs LH has no problem being the launch customer:

FD 728
A310
A321
A340

737
747F
747-8

as a few examples

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-27 22:39:14 and read 13068 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 161):

LH is launch customer for the all-new CS100. Being the same for a stretched CS500 would be a significantly lower risk. The number of planes needed for 4U should be enough to start the program. Yet I do not believe the launch of a bigger model happen until the CS100/300 have entered into service and production has ramped up to a stable amount.

LH has several times proven its capability to go for a new plane based just on theoretical figures. Otherwise 748I would have never being launched. Not to forget 737-100, where LH had played a major role on the main layout, say range and pax numbers.

Not to say other airlines couldn't do same, just to state LH can and will push for a new plane if it fits their needs.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: ytz
Posted 2013-02-28 08:48:23 and read 12416 times.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 163):
LH is launch customer for the all-new CS100.

I was under the impression that LH is not the launch customer. Just an early customer.

Quoting columba (Reply 162):
If the plane fits their needs LH has no problem being the launch customer.

If that was the case, I think LH would have ordered the CS300 already (say for OS and LX). I think there is still a limit to the risk they are willing to take on.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 163):
Yet I do not believe the launch of a bigger model happen until the CS100/300 have entered into service and production has ramped up to a stable amount.

I would say that BBD might be willing to offer the CS500 as early as the CS100 EIS. So far, this program seems to have fewer hiccups than the 787 and 350. If they maintain this pace, then they could have a CS500 in service as early as 2016. I don't think it's too early to offer the aircraft.

And certainly for the LH Group, unless they need containerized cargo, they are far better off using the CSeries. Better fuel economy. Faster load times. More carry-on cargo room. Higher passenger comfort levels. I would think the CSeries is great for Germanwings and LH Regional (Cityline, Air Dolomiti and Eurowings). Heck, even LH mainline could benefit from using the CSeries. This way, they would only have to buy the 321NEO for high demand routes and for routes where containerized cargo is necessary.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Paolo92
Posted 2013-02-28 09:32:33 and read 12316 times.

Quoting ytz (Reply 164):
I was under the impression that LH is not the launch customer. Just an early customer.

Lufthansa actually is the launch customer (airline which signed the first order, launching the program), but will not be the first operator (still undisclosed).

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 163):
Yet I do not believe the launch of a bigger model happen until the CS100/300 have entered into service and production has ramped up to a stable amount.

I absolutely agree.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-02-28 12:34:56 and read 11983 times.

http://www.bombardier.com/en/corpora...ses/details?docID=0901260d80088e67
"The Lufthansa Group became the launch customer for the CSeries aircraft family in July 2008 when it signed a Letter of Interest (LOI) for up to 60 aircraft, including 30 options."

30 options still pending. I'm wondering how many of their options for several kind of aircraft LH has not converted into firm orders. Anyone who knows details?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: ZRH
Posted 2013-02-28 12:42:07 and read 11996 times.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 166):
it signed a Letter of Interest (LOI) for up to 60 aircraft, including 30 options."

30 options still pending. I'm wondering how many of their options for several kind of aircraft LH has not converted into firm orders. Anyone who knows details?

I only know that the first 30 aircrafts go to SWISS to replace the 20 AVROs and to expand or probably to replace some 319.

[Edited 2013-02-28 12:51:21]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Paolo92
Posted 2013-02-28 12:52:20 and read 11986 times.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 166):
Anyone who knows details?

According to their corporate website:
http://investor-relations.lufthansag.../fakten-zum-unternehmen/fleet.html

They still hold 5 options for A321, 2 for the A330, 3 for the A380 and 5 for the 777 (freighter) in addition to the 30 options for the CSeries.
They are used to convert all the options they hold....
They had several for the Embraer E-jets which got all converted, same thing with the A380 (2 options still there, rumored to be converted with this order) and also for other aircraft (see A320 family)...

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-08 10:49:24 and read 10965 times.

What do you think, can we expect an announcement in the next few weeks ?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-03-08 23:22:47 and read 10414 times.

The AGM in may would be a good date to announce, or the next supervisory board meeting. Check investors relations for dates

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-03-08 23:26:43 and read 10417 times.

It would be great to see a mainline airline going for big numbers of the C-series. It will turn the heat up on the duopoly in the NB market. A+B could really need some more competition IMO.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-03-09 00:36:57 and read 10276 times.

I really doubt anything will happen at least until first flight...though the presence of a senior LH Executive Vice President Nico Buchholz at the CSeries show and tell, indicates they do have confidence in the program. One thing he mentioned is that customer related changes for the CS300 and the trickle down to the CS100 contributed to the 6 month delay...which is probably why customers weren't raging about the delay.

With LH basically admitting they had a hand in the CS300 mods, it's a pretty good bet they'll order a few. As for the order book, BBD's production ramp up has the first three years booked. They are shooting for a production rate of 120 per year, within 3 years of EIS, with the first deliveries taking place 2Q 2014.

That being said, I think the number one thing keeping airlines from pulling the trigger is uncertainty...and there is a lot of it. Not only is this program far and away the most complex in the history of BBD, the engines are also brand new.

There are a lot of firsts here for BBD; first fly-by-wire, GTF, electric brakes, al-li fuse, CFRP wings, and a bunch more...and accountants hate uncertainty.

FTV1 should be done in a few weeks...that gives 3 months of combing for nits before first flight by the end of June...though a bit sooner would be nice.

I'm guessing there will be a bunch of orders within a month or so after first flight...including LH.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-09 05:46:46 and read 9835 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 172):
One thing he mentioned is that customer related changes for the CS300 and the trickle down to the CS100 contributed to the 6 month delay...which is probably why customers weren't raging about the delay.

With LH basically admitting they had a hand in the CS300 mods, it's a pretty good bet they'll order a few. As for the order book, BBD's production ramp up has the first three years booked. They are shooting for a production rate of 120 per year, within 3 years of EIS, with the first deliveries taking place 2Q 2014.

I believe the CS 300 will be a good replacement for the A319s. As Nico Buchholz once said the A319NEO is too heavy and they don´t need the range of it.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: YTZ
Posted 2013-03-09 09:29:27 and read 9452 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 173):
I believe the CS 300 will be a good replacement for the A319s. As Nico Buchholz once said the A319NEO is too heavy and they don´t need the range of it.

I just don't think there's a place for an aircraft that sized going forward with LH mainline. Going forward I could see LH regionals take up the CS100. And Germanwings take up the CS300 over time. But with LH mainline, I think they'd transition to 320/321 size going forward.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-09 11:53:25 and read 9231 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 174):
I just don't think there's a place for an aircraft that sized going forward with LH mainline. Going forward I could see LH regionals take up the CS100. And Germanwings take up the CS300 over time. But with LH mainline, I think they'd transition to 320/321 size going forward.

Could be that LH mainline will be 737Max/A320 only and that the smaller aircraft will be operated by Cityline&Germanwings.

Regarding the Boeing order for 6 777-300ERs and maybe even some 737Max....are there any UFO´s that could be the ones for LH ?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-03-09 11:56:46 and read 9278 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 175):
Regarding the Boeing order for 6 777-300ERs and maybe even some 737Max....are there any UFO´s that could be the ones for LH?

There are a total of 36 777-300ER UFOs on the books:

29-Jul-2011 | 1

30-Sep-2011 | 1

31-Oct-2011 | 2

13-Jul-2012 | 2

17-Dec-2012 | 30

There are also 57 UFO 737-MAX:

01-Oct-2012 | 22
21-Dec-2012 | 35

[Edited 2013-03-09 11:58:22]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-03-09 12:04:03 and read 9535 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 174):

Correct. Since after July LH will only fly own NBs out of FRA and MUC, the need for small aircraft is simply not given IMO. For LX, OS and 4U indeed, things are different.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-03-09 13:20:41 and read 9283 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 174):
I just don't think there's a place for an aircraft that sized going forward with LH mainline.

Once you have a different type in the fleet, then adding more becomes less onerous since the support and supply chain is already in place. To LH, a subsidiary works the same as mainline when it comes to training and maintenance, so you can maximise the efficiency of the fleets. The Swiss order is the foot in the door required.

If he CS300 pantses the 319 like many suspect, (and they decide they still need an aircraft that size), there is nothing holding LH back from putting it in mainline service when it comes time for fleet renewal and/or growth.

That being said, I think any CSeries purchased by LH will go to subsidiaries, (mainly Swiss and Austrian), for now. If BBD doesn't screw the pooch with this thing, I fully expect to see them in LH mainline down the road.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-03-09 22:56:35 and read 8891 times.

There is a Boeing fraction in the LH pilot roster and when a 737 captain who has also piloted 744s as a senior FO before switching back to the 737 converts to A320 next year, chances that LH will buy the 737MAX are slim.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: YTZ
Posted 2013-03-11 07:27:25 and read 7982 times.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 177):
For LX, OS and 4U indeed, things are different.

Do any of those airlines need containerized cargo?

For example could LX and OS go all CSeries for short-haul or do they need the cans?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-03-11 08:28:16 and read 7758 times.

Most freight in Europe is trucked to the gateways, except most but not all premium flash cargo. The cans are certainly not needed for transshipment to long haul as the AKHs are not compatibal.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: DALCE
Posted 2013-03-11 09:08:32 and read 7651 times.

We use AKH's on the 320's at LX, and I can tell you that it's quite an advantage compared to bulk operators who habe limits of 100kgs / 150kgs per piece. The AKH max weight is 1134kgs incl. the unit. So approx 1000kgs a piece is loadable.
Perfect for cargo within Europe, which is obviously more than you think.
Besides this, the loading of DGR is easier as the pieces can be strapped inside the AKH's in stead of every loose piece at loading of the aircraft, which consumes more time than available in current turn around times of intra-european flights.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-03-11 09:54:53 and read 7489 times.

I lost touch a little bit but I mentioned earlier here that the A320/321 have a clear advantage ofver the Boeings with the AKH. Unofrtunately, flight leveöl 1 over the Autobahn is in many ways quicker these days even than ZTDflash.

BTW, back in the 70s I once had a shiP's spares for an Onassis tanker, HAM-ATH. we got loaded on an OA 727 when Onassis owned the airline, bulk load and the weight was 1500 kgs. The flight was delayed which was OK'd by OA ATH.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: YTZ
Posted 2013-03-11 10:47:22 and read 7320 times.

Quoting DALCE (Reply 182):
We use AKH's on the 320's at LX, and I can tell you that it's quite an advantage compared to bulk operators who habe limits of 100kgs / 150kgs per piece. The AKH max weight is 1134kgs incl. the unit. So approx 1000kgs a piece is loadable.

Perfect for cargo within Europe, which is obviously more than you think.

I take it this means all CSeries is not possible for LX.

The next thing I wonder is if an airline like LX can do with mostly the CSeries and a fleet of only A321s for those sectors where seating demand is high or there is more cargo demand.

ie. Is cargo demand regular and to specific destinations, such that it could be possible to schedule A321s on those sectors while deploying the CSeries elsewhere?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: DALCE
Posted 2013-03-11 13:01:05 and read 7065 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 184):
I take it this means all CSeries is not possible for LX.

I can't imagine the C-series replacing all of the 320-series at LX. Perhaps they can replace the 319's but 320's and 321's are not replacable by the C-series.

I do wonder how the cargo-holds of the C-series look like as I don't have a clue as of yet....but that is a different discussion.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-11 23:40:59 and read 6656 times.

Airbus is expecting more than 100 new orders for the A320NEO by the end of the month. Lufthansa and Turkish are named as the most likely customers. So if this turns out to be true we can expect an order within the next two weeks

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...0neo-orders-before-month-ends.html

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-03-12 00:49:15 and read 6493 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 186):
Lufthansa and Turkish are named as the most likely customers. So if this turns out to be true we can expect an order within the next two weeks

I thought that an LH-order would be placed further in the future. So that would be a surprise. And we still do not know how much aircraft of which type LH (or TK) are looking for. Or did I miss something?  .

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2013-03-12 02:23:45 and read 6279 times.

I'm wondering if all the pent up anticipation and expectation for the C-series might be leaving folk vulnerable to disappointment.

Whilst the smaller versions might be all they are being hyped up to be, I have noticed comments regarding the economics of larger variants cropping up on a few occasions recently, notably, that to compete with Airbus and Boeing, the CS300 will require a charter seat pitch configuration:   

Quote:
Bombardier Aerospace rolled out the first CSeries flight test vehicle (FTV1) Thursday at its Montreal Mirabel facility and announced an extended variant of the CS300 that can carry up to 160 passengers....

...At 160 seats, with a seat pitch of 28 in., the CS300 will have the same seat costs as a 180-seat narrowbody, CSeries VP and general manager Robert Dewar said.
http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...m_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A AtwDailyNews %28ATW Daily News%29

Also:

Quote:
The maker, Bombardier, is reported as saying that only with a 28 inch or 71 cms seatpitch will the largest version of the new jet, the CSeries 300, be able to match the seat/distance costs of an 180 seat single aisle A320 or 189 seat Boeing 737-800.

But, that is 2.5 cms less than the already crippling lack of space for a standard sized adult or teenager in a Tiger or Jetstar A320, or a Ryanair 737-800.

(my bold)

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...des-bad-news-for-people-with-legs/

Does the touted "extra cabin width without the extra seat" present larger variants with a weight penalty, carrying revenue negative empty space around compared to Airbus and Boeing offerings?

Quote:
After spending the day with Bombardier recently to learn about their new CSeries, the biggest thing I pulled away that you, the passenger will care the most about is SPACE and lots of it. This is the interior that many passengers have been begging for and they are finally going to get it. All the time , I hear people asking for wider seats, more room, etc. But really, what airline is going to take a Boeing 737 or Airbus A320 and go from six seats across to five? (hint: none). The CSeries is designed to provide that extra space that passengers want, but not the additional weight that costs the airlines more money. Bombardier has built enough width into their new CSeries to give passengers extra room, but not enough for airlines to fit in additional seats.
http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...of-the-bombardier-cseries-mock-up/

C-Series: Seat Width: 18.5 inches, middle seat 19 inches. Seat Pitch 28 inches
Swiss A319/20: Seat Width 17 inches. Seat Pitch 31 inches
Lufthansa A319/20: Seat Width 17 inches. Seat Pitch 30 inches
Ryanair B738: Seat Width: 17 inches. Seat Pitch 30 inches

Bombardier states "Future markets will demand aircraft that have mainline range and performance, yet be as nimble as regional jets." With a range of 2950nm., it is being marketed as a 5-hour sector capable airframe. However, if scheduled airlines, in this instance Lufthansa or Swiss, can only make it work with a 28" charter configuration, I see its potential being severely restricted.

Rgds

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-03-12 03:48:11 and read 6115 times.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 188):
Bombardier states "Future markets will demand aircraft that have mainline range and performance, yet be as nimble as regional jets." With a range of 2950nm., it is being marketed as a 5-hour sector capable airframe. However, if scheduled airlines, in this instance Lufthansa or Swiss, can only make it work with a 28" charter configuration, I see its potential being severely restricted.

That's just an option for airlines. It's still a 135 seat aircraft with very comfortable pitch. So far, there is only one customer for the 160 seat version, (the only difference being an extra overwing exit), and they're planning less than 150 seats.

The CSeries already had superior economics based on the standard models. Extra seats only improve on the economics.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-12 13:59:55 and read 5525 times.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 187):
I thought that an LH-order would be placed further in the future. So that would be a surprise. And we still do not know how much aircraft of which type LH (or TK) are looking for. Or did I miss something?  .

Both airlines are about to order around 100 narrow body aircraft. This order will take place in the near future. Maybe you are thinking of the longhaul order that LH will place later this year (787,777X and A350 are being discussed).

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-03-12 14:10:45 and read 5472 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 190):
Maybe you are thinking of the long-haul order that LH will place later this year (787,777X and A350 are being discussed).

Not really. I guess it is just me having for some reason my mind set on a later date for the (predominantly) NB-order from LH.  

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-03-13 07:05:25 and read 5075 times.

According to this article the airplanes have been ordered already. Total worth 9 billion Euros.

http://www.merkur-online.de/lokales/...0-weniger-mitarbeiter-2797296.html

It is in Germany only but the Kay sentence is the following:

Quote:
So seien 108 neue Flugzeuge bereits bestellt, die laut Listenpreis rund neun Milliarden Euro kosten würden.



Translation: '108 airplanes already ordered, cost around 9 billion euros.'

I don't know if it is only a wrongly quote from the journalist or if it's true.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-03-13 09:40:52 and read 4759 times.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 192):
Translation: '108 airplanes already ordered, cost around 9 billion euros.'

Your guess is as good as mine. Or better, I trust your guesses better then mine if LH is the subject. But it stated quite convincing that the orders have already been placed. So where in the order lists of Airbus, Boeing (and Bombardier?) do we see large enough volumes of undisclosed customers?   

Also very interesting is this quote: "Im Herbst sollen weitere Langstreckenmaschinen bestellt werden". That would be a confirmation that in the Fall or in the Autumn the new long range airplanes will be ordered. Interesting times ahead, again.  .

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-03-13 10:02:52 and read 4706 times.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 193):
So where in the order lists of Airbus, Boeing (and Bombardier?) do we see large enough volumes of undisclosed customers?     

Boeing has two UFO MAX orders - 22 frames on 01-Oct-2012 and 35 on 21-Dec-2012.

Airbus has a UFO order for 32 A321-200s, 16 A320-200s and 12 A319-100s on 31-Dec-2012. I do not know if these are classics or neos.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Aircellist
Posted 2013-03-13 10:25:40 and read 4608 times.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 192):
According to this article the airplanes have been ordered already.

Does that sound like a future Paris air show announcement?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-03-13 11:06:12 and read 4463 times.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 193):

Well, the 340s need a replacement as well. And anything is possible, but I think got the 777X had high chances.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 194):

Could be the LH orders, but now sure. Haven't heard any rumours within the company yet.

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 195):

Maybe they wait that long. Who knows.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-03-13 13:41:08 and read 4153 times.

AERO INTERNATIONAL, Germany's leading magazine of civil aviation, quotes US media sources about LX getting 6x 777ER as a replacement for their oldest A340. The US source is most likely Aviation Week and the man who wrote the article for Aviation Week is Jens Flottau, who is also working for AERO INTERNATIONAL.

As I can't imagine a pretty serious magazine would participate in pure speculations, I slowly get the impression the 777 deal has been fixed already and Flottau has a reliable source either in Seattle or in Frankfurt. To speculate on A.net is one thing, to write it in the magazine is another one. I'm not saying magazines don't speculate, but this one always made a serious impression to me.

Given, LH does not intend to buy early 350's, then the 777 is the only true choice they have for the replacement of LX's 340 and given they go for new frames instead of used 340-600. 777's would be available when the retirement of oldest 340 takes place. For the latter, I'm sure, Boeing is prepared.

Then of course we will see all A340 of LX being substituted by 777 over the years and the OS 767 as well.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-03-13 13:47:25 and read 4111 times.

What's the LH Group's policy on aircraft leasing? If they do choose the 777-300ER for LX, could they lease or would it be a buy?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-13 13:49:24 and read 4101 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 194):
35 on 21-Dec-2012.

Could be it. 35 sounds like a number LH would order.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 196):
but I think got the 777X had high chances.

That is also my impression

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 197):
Then of course we will see all A340 of LX being substituted by 777 over the years and the OS 767 as well.

I think more of a 777/787 mix.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: douglasyxz
Posted 2013-03-13 13:51:06 and read 4070 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 198):

LH has been doing both, the majority of aircarft is bought indeed.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: seahawk
Posted 2013-03-13 23:51:53 and read 3515 times.

777X would fit to LHs way of operating. They could be launch customer. In the meantime the oldest A340 could be replaced by 777s and I am sure that consideirng the 747-8 LH is in quite healthy position when talking about a deal with Boeing.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-03-14 00:06:38 and read 3529 times.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 197):
quotes US media sources about LX getting 6x 777ER as a replacement for their oldest A340

That is good news for LX, but to be honest I am a little surprised as LX only owns Airbus and their crews are easily to be interchanged. Introducing the 777 will limit that a bit. Unless more 777's will be bought and less 330/ 340s are flown.

Quoting douglasyxz (Reply 197):
LH does not intend to buy early 350's

Nope. They want to wait how it actually performs.

Quoting columba (Reply 199):
I think more of a 777/787 mix.

I doubt the 787 will be ordered by LH. They want to see how it actually performs. ANA was quite happy with their performance until it was grounded. But I am not sure if the size would be good for LH.
I see a lot of 777's coming.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: Baschiiii
Posted 2013-03-14 00:30:08 and read 3436 times.

I guess it just got official  

Occording to Bloomberg, LH is ordering:

70 A320/321 NEO
30 A320/321
6 B77W for Siwss
2 A380

Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...anes-in-fuel-cost-cut-program.html

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-03-14 00:34:03 and read 3410 times.

Quoting Baschiiii (Reply 203):
Occording to Bloomberg, LH is ordering:

70 A320/321 NEO
30 A320/321
6 B77W for Siwss
2 A380

A lot of Airbus again. But that was somehow expected. The 2 A380's surprises me a lot. I heard rumours said that it is a little too big for LH needs, but I guess that were only rumours.

Congrats for Airbus for this order. And congrats to Boeing for the 6 777's for LX.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: autothrust
Posted 2013-03-14 00:34:52 and read 3420 times.

I know from a source in LX they will get definitve the 777-300 and i'am being corrected. However it still doesn't any sense to me.   
Let's wait what the pilots and SR Technics says about it.

For me personally LX 777 is a nogo (not because its a Boeing), i will rather fly in the future a other company longhoul.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa Looking For 108 New Aircraft
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-03-14 01:45:23 and read 3097 times.

As it looks like the order is confirmed a new thread has been started. Please continue here:

LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W (by FlyingAY Mar 14 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks.

wilco737
  


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