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Topic: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-03-16 10:34:04 and read 6870 times.

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/...ines-jets-collide-at-metro-airport

2 WN 737s clipped wings during pushback from the North Terminal, gates D-21 & D-23 this morning (Saturday 3/16/13)

The impacted flights were:
WN 3360 DTW-DEN
WN 2005 DTW-STL

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-03-16 11:02:18 and read 6775 times.

If only ".com" is remaining on one of the winglets in the photo, it looks like one plane had a winglet nearly sheared right off in the accident.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: dbo861
Posted 2013-03-16 11:06:11 and read 6752 times.

These aircraft will be back in the air within 24 hours. Slow news day.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: mhkansan
Posted 2013-03-16 11:22:03 and read 6672 times.

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 2):
These aircraft will be back in the air within 24 hours. Slow news day.

A whole ramp crew just lost their jobs! Wee!

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-03-16 13:10:40 and read 6399 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 3):
A whole ramp crew just lost their jobs! Wee!

That's a pretty immature and uneducated comment. There is an obvious process to go through now when it comes to evaluating why it happened. To say the entire crew is fired is just foolish.

Luckily it looks like just the winglet got damaged. So like DBO said, shouldn't be out of service that long.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-03-16 13:17:36 and read 6373 times.

Not just a slow news day, but must've been a slow travel day. There were only ~60 people on the DEN flight and 38 on the STL flight? I hope the STL flight was still boarding....

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: nwcoflyer
Posted 2013-03-16 13:51:33 and read 6260 times.

Not surprising with the way it seems WN operates in many stations below the wing... they dont seem to have much of a safety culture on their ramp from what I have observed. It seems like the wild west down there sometimes...

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: mhkansan
Posted 2013-03-16 13:53:09 and read 6248 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 4):
That's a pretty immature and uneducated comment. There is an obvious process to go through now when it comes to evaluating why it happened. To say the entire crew is fired is just foolish.

At my airline, if you cause aircraft damage it generally means your jobs. It's pretty obvious here that a wingwalker wasn't doing his, or the pushback driver wasn't watching him, or someone turned a plane to early or parked the other one way out of line. Unless the tug malfunctioned, this looks a lot like human error.

There are reasons why you have people to watch the wings on pushback. When one member of the team doesn't do their job, it can causes hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage, flight delays and cancellations on one of the year's busiest travel days, and will eats up margins in an industry where they're already very slim.

Can't keep people like that around.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: tb727
Posted 2013-03-16 13:58:46 and read 6217 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 5):
Not just a slow news day, but must've been a slow travel day. There were only ~60 people on the DEN flight and 38 on the STL flight? I hope the STL flight was still boarding....

It's usually a great day to jumpseat/non-rev out of DTW!

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-03-16 14:17:42 and read 6150 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 3):

A whole ramp crew just lost their jobs! Wee!

Southwest tends to treat their workers a little better than yours. Just sayin'...

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 6):
Not surprising with the way it seems WN operates in many stations below the wing... they dont seem to have much of a safety culture on their ramp from what I have observed. It seems like the wild west down there sometimes...

  

And just what exactly have you observed?

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 7):
At my airline, if you cause aircraft damage it generally means your jobs.

Which is actually a pretty poor way of doing business, as it makes people reluctant to report any damage they may have caused.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: MIflyer12
Posted 2013-03-16 15:06:32 and read 6004 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 5):
Not just a slow news day, but must've been a slow travel day. There were only ~60 people on the DEN flight and 38 on the STL flight? I hope the STL flight was still boarding....

A 6:55AM departure DTW-STL on a Saturday in March? Half that count of 38 must have been non-revs as it were!

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: B727FA
Posted 2013-03-16 15:07:48 and read 6004 times.

"There were 85 customers and four crew members on Flight 3360 and 38 customers and four crew members on Flight 2005."
Well, that would be a trick...
[Edited 2013-03-16 15:08:22]

[Edited 2013-03-16 15:09:17]

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-03-16 16:27:36 and read 5820 times.

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 6):
Not surprising with the way it seems WN operates in many stations below the wing... they dont seem to have much of a safety culture on their ramp from what I have observed. It seems like the wild west down there sometimes...

Interesting comment. How exactly do they operate in many stations? No safety culture? I'll be nice and leave safety records out of this and chalk you up as just trolling. If that's the kind of attitude US Airways is employing these days, I'm glad I stay away from them.  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
Which is actually a pretty poor way of doing business, as it makes people reluctant to report any damage they may have caused.

Exactly. Great point.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-16 16:59:00 and read 5701 times.

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 6):
Not surprising with the way it seems WN operates in many stations below the wing... they dont seem to have much of a safety culture on their ramp from what I have observed. It seems like the wild west down there sometimes...

Whatever their culture is, I wish it would spread. I can't remember the last time I took a delay for bag loading on WN, and the 25 minute turns--which often happen even though not many are scheduled anymore--are something to behold.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: nwcoflyer
Posted 2013-03-16 19:06:55 and read 5489 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
And just what exactly have you observed?

No wing walkers often on inbound arrivals, driving fast near aircraft, running on the ramp. Its not huge stuff- but none the less the kind of stuff that leads to aircraft damage and employee injuries.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 12):
Interesting comment. How exactly do they operate in many stations? No safety culture? I'll be nice and leave safety records out of this and chalk you up as just trolling. If that's the kind of attitude US Airways is employing these days, I'm glad I stay away from them.  

I probably could have used my words a little better, to say WN is unsafe is not correct. I just think they seem to kind of have no set processes in place to avoid this type of stuff. Could a wing walker have prevented this particular incident. Very possibly. At US we really do take ramp safety seriously. The PHX hub went an entire year without an aircraft damage. Pretty incredible for an operation of that size.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
Whatever their culture is, I wish it would spread. I can't remember the last time I took a delay for bag loading on WN, and the 25 minute turns--which often happen even though not many are scheduled anymore--are something to behold.

I agree WN has a great culture. I very much enjoy flying on WN- sometimes I am just dumbfounded when I look out the window and dont see wing walkers, etc. Its a pretty basic ramp safety concept.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-16 19:13:49 and read 5462 times.

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 14):
No wing walkers often on inbound arrivals, driving fast near aircraft, running on the ramp. Its not huge stuff- but none the less the kind of stuff that leads to aircraft damage and employee injuries.

Can you point me toward a single incident of aircraft damage (on WN or any other carrier) caused by lack of wingwalkers on arrival? It seems to me that that would take a pretty significant comedy of errors.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: SXDFC
Posted 2013-03-16 19:19:13 and read 5429 times.

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 3):
A whole ramp crew just lost their jobs! Wee!

If you were involved in an accident that was posted on here, and you saw a comment like that, how would you feel?

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 7):
At my airline, if you cause aircraft damage it generally means your jobs.

What airline do you work for? There is always a fact finding when an A/C is damaged while in the hands of the Ground Crew.. I am sure your airline does the same, unless you don't have a union..

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 14):
No wing walkers often on inbound arrivals

You dont see that becasue thats not a part of our procedures..

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 14):
just think they seem to kind of have no set processes in place to avoid this type of stuff.

Things happen at every airline.. I am sure there have been stories of wingtips touching each other over at US too..

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 14):
sometimes I am just dumbfounded when I look out the window and dont see wing walkers

Well if you are seated on the starboard window during pushback you will see a wing walker..  

Things happen in this industry, and it really annoys me when something happens with WN everyone is quick to blame them.. We're all human unless your airline has replaced Ramp Agents with robotic ones..

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: aztrainer
Posted 2013-03-16 19:56:26 and read 5357 times.

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 14):
ould a wing walker have prevented this particular incident. Very possibly. At US we really do take ramp safety seriously. The PHX hub went an entire year without an aircraft damage. Pretty incredible for an operation of that size.

Just wondering, but I have not heard of anything happening at WN at PHX either and that is a large hub for WN too. Also I have flown on WN a lot and spot at PHX also and they do have wing walkers all of the time. WN moves quick on the ground, I would agree with that, but I do not see anything as unsafe.

Seeing that it was snowing in the picture and not knowing the airport or the tight spacing, but could a A/C "slide" in black ice or just regular ice? I know momentum and a slick surface is not a good thing.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-03-16 20:04:14 and read 5331 times.

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 16):

"I'm sure there have been stories of wingtips touching each other over at US too...."

Cough cough PVD a321 vs E175.......

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: 7673mech
Posted 2013-03-17 01:02:48 and read 4857 times.

It seems like it is either snowing or raining at time of accident.
I have had planes slide on me in weather.
If you have some deicing fluid on ground - just makes it worse.
Lets not jump to conclusions as to what happened.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: YXwatcherMKE
Posted 2013-03-17 06:11:41 and read 3801 times.

Two Questions for the ramper's here. The article states both a/c were in backing mode at the time of the incident or at least gave the impression that both were. Why would a/c side by side be pushed out at the same time? It would seems to me a odd thing to do, is this a common practice? Not saying its wrong to do, just odd.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: pvjin
Posted 2013-03-17 09:10:22 and read 2778 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 9):
Which is actually a pretty poor way of doing business, as it makes people reluctant to report any damage they may have caused.

That is very true indeed, people will always make errors, thus proper approach would be trying to learn from these errors and make sure they are less likely to happen again instead of simply firing whoever happened to make an error (unless it was caused by somebody disregarding basic safety rules on purpose which I doubt).

Would be interesting to know which airline mhkansan works for so I would know to avoid that airline if I ever happen to fly in the US.

Who knows that kind of bad stuff might happen with such an airline if employees are afraid of reporting their mistakes because they could lose their jobs... Learning from others mistakes has always been one of the most important parts of making aviation safer.

Topic: RE: 2 WN Aircraft Clip Wings During Pushback At DTW
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-03-17 09:30:06 and read 2638 times.

Quoting nwcoflyer (Reply 6):
Not surprising with the way it seems WN operates in many stations below the wing... they dont seem to have much of a safety culture on their ramp from what I have observed. It seems like the wild west down there sometimes...

At my particular airport, I have had WN crews drive behind me while I have been pushing airplanes back. Midway through pushback I have had to suddenly stop my airplane because they have driven behind me or pushed an airplane out of an adjacent gate and turned it's tail behind the airplane I was pushing out. Not only stopping my pushback halfway, but also having to wait on the WN airplane to move. If they see us getting ready to push and they are beginning their push, they will purposely push the a/c behind ours and block us in. On some days they will push the airplane back at an angle that will jetblast my ramp. I have been jetblasted before by WN multiple times, the belts on the beltloaders flapping in the air and all sorts of dust and dirt blowing into everyone's eyes. It's an ongoing issue.


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