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Topic: AA And TLV
Username: etops1
Posted 2013-02-23 17:00:15 and read 11328 times.

I hate to rehash this but can someone with factual knowledge explain to me what is the situation between AA and Tel Aviv ? Is AA banned from flying into TLV? Thank you .

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: PacNWJet
Posted 2013-02-23 17:46:05 and read 11215 times.

There was a lot of discussion about this in a thread a couple of years ago:

Rumor: AA Looking At DXB And TLV! (by GlobalCabotage Dec 30 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Here is what the person in Reply #57 said:

Israel has some rather stiff laws when it comes to retirement and pensions. When AA canceled TW's old TLV route, they skipped out on paying these pensions and these retirements. Thus, the fear is now that if one of AA's aircraft were to land in TLV, it could potentially be confiscated as collateral. Granted, if AA wanted to start service to TLV - I'm sure this could be rectified easily enough with an 8 figure check.

I don't know if the person who posted this comment is fully knowledgeable, but the post sounds like it is based on a good understanding of the matter.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-23 18:14:38 and read 11091 times.

In summary from a document I hold:


Having learnt that the claims of TWA employees in Israel were ignored and they did not receive payments for whose contacts were terminated following TWA's insolvency, the court decided that proceedings would be carried on in order to secure the employees' claims under Israeli law.

The court ordered that the Israeli employees should be paid in a manner similar to the payment made to the employees discharged by TWA in France, somewhat in excess of the sums due the employees as preferred payments under Israeli law.

The court ordered further that, settling of claims against assets in favor of Israeli creditors is deserving of special interest under Israeli law and that dues and severance payments owed to employees holds same stature as other debts such as sums to tax authorities.

Under Israeli law, ancillary proceedings may be upheld if the company does business or holds assets in Israel. In such case, the ancillary award should serve the purpose of justice and efficiency. The fact that these judgments are ancillary means that plaintiff are restricted to collecting assets situated in Israel.



At the time of TWA’s hasty withdrawal in 2001, the claims of 102 ex-employees amounted to $13 million.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: etops1
Posted 2013-02-23 18:19:06 and read 11052 times.

Thank you very much . That explains a lot .

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: rangercarp
Posted 2013-02-23 18:33:31 and read 10990 times.

I still do not understand how these debts were transferred to AA. Wouldn't they have been settled in TWA's bankruptcy? My understanding is that AA simply bought TWA's assets out of bankruptcy, but did not assume any of its debts.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: airtechy
Posted 2013-02-23 20:57:37 and read 10601 times.

.......and doesn't US Airways fly to TLV. How will this be handled after the merger?

Jim

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: Byrdluvs747
Posted 2013-02-23 21:58:57 and read 10442 times.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 5):
How will this be handled after the merger?

Simple. AA pays or AA leaves.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-02-24 00:27:52 and read 10239 times.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 6):
Simple. AA pays or AA leaves.

Or AA appeals and has the case re-opened for review. Plenty of time between now and SOC status...

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: jmc1975
Posted 2013-02-24 00:49:35 and read 10195 times.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 6):
Quoting airtechy (Reply 5):
How will this be handled after the merger?

Simple. AA pays or AA leaves.
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 7):
Or AA appeals and has the case re-opened for review. Plenty of time between now and SOC status...

It's important to keep in mind the positive relationship and economic impact that US Airways has had on TLV and the Israeli economy since they entered the market in 2009. US employs Israeli airport staff as well as corporate sales personnel in TLV. Their daily A330 has been generating airport rents and landing fees during its four years of operation. That said, it very well could be in the best interest of the Israeli government to forgive the debt that an obsolete airline (TWA) once owed them from over a decade ago, and embrace the new US/AA entity with an enhanced relationship that builds upon the past four years.

[Edited 2013-02-24 00:59:11]

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: ly7e7
Posted 2013-02-24 00:58:08 and read 10174 times.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 8):

And forgo pensions for people who are entitled to receive them? Not going to happen. And if it does for a reason you mentioned - expect a criminal investigation into the underlying conflict of interests.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: jmc1975
Posted 2013-02-24 01:07:47 and read 10152 times.

Quoting ly7e7 (Reply 9):
And forgo pensions for people who are entitled to receive them?

Absolutely! TWA does not exist anymore. There is no need to turn against a trusted company doing business in Israel. The key word here is forgiveness.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-02-24 01:14:02 and read 10135 times.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 8):
That said, it very well could be in the best interest of the Israeli government to forgive the debt that an obsolete airline (TWA) once owed them from over a decade ago

I thought it was individuals who were owed the money, not the Israeli government.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: ly7e7
Posted 2013-02-24 01:34:16 and read 10088 times.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 10):

AA legally owns the debt of TWA, hence the argument of TWA not existing anymore is completely irrelevant. Forgiveness should be sought with people who were left without their pension savings. And the court ruling clearly sides with them. With all due respect to US and its contribution to the business in TLV - people's pensions come first.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: milesrich
Posted 2013-02-24 04:12:49 and read 9459 times.

Quoting ly7e7 (Reply 12):
AA legally owns the debt of TWA, hence the argument of TWA not existing anymore is completely irrelevant. Forgiveness should be sought with people who were left without their pension savings. And the court ruling clearly sides with them. With all due respect to US and its contribution to the business in TLV - people's pensions come first.

How does the AA bankruptcy affect this? Does Israel not recognize US Bankruptcy Law? Was the TWA pension of these employees picked up by the Israeli government? Or under Israeli law, are pension liabilities "nondischargeable" in bankruptcy? I used the quotes because corporations do NOT receive a discharge under Title 11 in the USA. The "old" American ceases to exist when it comes out of Bankruptcy and a new entity is created.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: klwright69
Posted 2013-02-24 04:36:11 and read 9329 times.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 13):
Does Israel not recognize US Bankruptcy Law?

Doubtful. Each country treats debt and bankruptcy differently. USA laws are US jurisdiction, they don't apply in other countries.

You can't run up debts in another country and file bankruptcy in the USA to discharge them. Bankruptcy in the USA will prevent creditors from COLLECTING that debt in the USA. But if you return to that country, you become subject to their laws.

AA may very well have to arrive at some settlement before flying into Israel. The fact they TWA doesn't exist anymore, and hasn't for a long time, is not relevant, since TW did not just stop flying, they were taken over by AA.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: crAAzy
Posted 2013-02-24 05:36:04 and read 9011 times.

I don't understand why people keep thinking that AA is not flying into TLV because of the TWA obligations they inherited.

AA has stated time and time again that has no plans of flying into the middle east, the reasons why, and that they're more than happy to let their partners do the flying.

Whether that mindset changes with the "new" American has yet to be seen; however, I ask yourself:

1. What routes into TLV would AA fly?
2. Can AA offer a better/more secure overall product?
3. How many daily flights would AA have into TLV?
4. What impact would AA's entry into the market from it's hubs have on El AL?
5. What costs will be incurred keeping if the station is kept open? What are the costs of closing the station?
6. Unlike US, does AA really need a marginal route like TLV in it's system to drive profits?

What ever it decides, this is going to be one of the first decisions that US has to make before the "New" American becomes an official entity if they don't want to lose an A330   .

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: CO7e7
Posted 2013-02-24 06:38:08 and read 8620 times.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 15):
1. What routes into TLV would AA fly?

I'll put my money on ORD and/or MIA

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 15):
3. How many daily flights would AA have into TLV?

2

It'll be interesting to see what happens once the merger is complete. I guess its only a matter of time till they make a decision, one way or another.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: klwright69
Posted 2013-02-24 06:49:50 and read 8515 times.

I recall that AA did not continue TW's TLV flight due to "economic reasons."

This allowed CO to take the NYC-TLV market by storm in their absence. When CO entered, it was only Tower Air and TWA.

But CrAAzy really is right. We don't know if AA will even continue the TLV route. We don't know their intentions. We hear TLV is great for US, but ultimately we don't know.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: dlphoenix
Posted 2013-02-24 07:15:50 and read 8323 times.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 15):
I don't understand why people keep thinking that AA is not flying into TLV because of the TWA obligations they inherited.

AA has stated time and time again that has no plans of flying into the middle east....

Bear in mind the the new AA will be led by a person who was i charge when US started flying to Israel, a route they claim is very profitable.
Discontinuing a route that was introduced by the new CEO is a tad harder than not starting a new route.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 15):

What ever it decides, this is going to be one of the first decisions that US has to make before the "New" American becomes an official entity if they don't want to lose an A330 .

They will not lose an A330, but they are at risk of having ticket revenues withheld until debt is covered. I assume the route profits are higher than the debt and matter will be therefore settled. It will be then be categorized as an "integration expense" (which will be dwarfed by the cost of integrating the IT systems, operation procedures and other integration costs).

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: klwright69
Posted 2013-02-24 07:22:34 and read 8260 times.

I agree with DLPhoenix. They will probably have to settle to continue TLV. And they will probably want to continue it.

This money is owed in Israel, US bankruptcy code does not apply.

[Edited 2013-02-24 07:26:03]

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: dlphoenix
Posted 2013-02-24 07:32:24 and read 8183 times.

Quoting rangercarp (Reply 4):
I still do not understand how these debts were transferred to AA. Wouldn't they have been settled in TWA's bankruptcy? My understanding is that AA simply bought TWA's assets out of bankruptcy, but did not assume any of its debts.

Under Israeli corporate law the employees are second priority creditors (the first being government taxes). Banks and other lenders are lower down the ladder. Foreign companies who set up Israeli subsidiaries commit to settle Israeli debt according to Israeli corporate law (in other words, the parent copay is liable). This is no different than most other foreign subsidiaries.
As such, AA which bought TWA assets was responsible for paying out the Israeli debt before paying any other creditors. The same will apply to the new AA which will be paying the old AA creditors.

Hope this helps shed some light.

DLP

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: 4engines4lnghll
Posted 2013-02-24 08:33:55 and read 7774 times.

Could the same thing that happened to TW/AA happen to US/AA?

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-02-24 08:34:03 and read 7757 times.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 15):
6. Unlike US, does AA really need a marginal route like TLV in it's system to drive profits?

Its marginal and profitable?

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: ripcordd
Posted 2013-02-24 08:50:55 and read 7635 times.

But here is the thing AA bought pieces of TWA and they claim they didnt buy the TLV operation of TWA. Now they have or will form a new airline on paper no more AMR or American Airlines so I wonder how that will take in count in TLV....

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-24 08:58:08 and read 7569 times.

This debt is not to the Israeli government, but the 102 individual employees who were rightfully due severance and retirement payments under local laws for their long service to TWA (some had 30-year seniority).

They went to court, they got their judgement.

The manner TWA pulled out of Israel was literally overnight, with the airplane not showing up from one day to the other with employees, passengers being left in the open.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 13):
How does the AA bankruptcy affect this? Does Israel not recognize US Bankruptcy Law?

AMR very early in its BK process filed with the US court to make it clear they did not seek to discharge any foreign debts. Its foreign creditors represented about 15% of its total debt, and any BK court action to stay its foreign debts would likely not be enforceable anyhow while subjecting AMR myriad of local legal challenges further complicating the reorganization process and risking those operations.

AMR within weeks of its BK filing was very concerned about foreign airspace and airport access, fuel availability and vendor provided services could be compromised if AMR is unable to meet its obligations including payment of foreign taxes and fees which were running about $250mil in arrears already and sought court permission to expedite payment as any interruptions incurred by actions of foreign governments, companies or courts would diminish the value of the AMR estate and was key AA maintain its international operations on an uninterrupted basis.

This was all detailed in the master AMR BK thread.

Quoting dlphoenix (Reply 20):
Under Israeli corporate law the employees are second priority creditors (the first being government taxes).

If you read reply 2, the claims were elevated by the court to hold the same status as any tax debts.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-24 09:08:24 and read 7954 times.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 17):
This allowed CO to take the NYC-TLV market by storm in their absence. When CO entered, it was only Tower Air and TWA.

I wonder how much DL's service JFK-TLV, starting in '91, had to do with TW losing money on the route? As I recall, for a short time it was only Tower and DL. When did TW drop the route? Was it before or after AA bought the assets?

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 14):
AA may very well have to arrive at some settlement before flying into Israel. The fact they TWA doesn't exist anymore, and hasn't for a long time, is not relevant, since TW did not just stop flying, they were taken over by AA.

Perhaps DL can get their lobby display back from US/AA/TW. In '91, when we took over from PA and were initiating our service out of TLV, we had a small lobby display at the Sheraton Hotel where the crews and the TDY personnel stayed as well as the TWA crews. One morning, we came downstairs, very early, to catch the shuttle to the airport and the display was gone...I don't believe it was even there a week...I believe all that was left was the wodden podium that the 767 model sat on. I don't believe it was ever found and the theory was that TWA took it, because they were mad about us starting the service and that the hotel was bending over backwards to help us.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: ckfred
Posted 2013-02-24 09:13:28 and read 7903 times.

I would assume that if US flights to Tel Aviv are profitable, then Doug Parker and his senior management aren't about to end service, just to avoid paying the debts of TWA.

Probably, there will be discussions between US and someone with authority on behalf of the former TWA employees to find a settlement that will lead to the judgment being discharged and US/AA to continue service to Tel Aviv.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-02-24 09:16:00 and read 8072 times.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 10):
Quoting ly7e7 (Reply 9):
And forgo pensions for people who are entitled to receive them?

Absolutely!

  

While those former TW employees may feel shafted, (and frankly, I still don't understand how any court could possibly have sided with them - AA didn't buy TW or legally take on their debts!) enabling a combined AA/US to offer service to/from TLV would be a greater benefit to the citizens of Israel as a whole.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-24 09:17:04 and read 8042 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 25):
When did TW drop the route? Was it before or after AA bought the assets?

March 2001, after the AMR acquisition was announced and TWA was in BK already.

Per AMR press releases at the time:
"AMR's American Airlines unit had said it would not continue the daily nonstop service between the United States and Israel for economic reasons."

and another

''We looked at the Tel Aviv service, and our judgment by the numbers and market projections is that it is not a route that would make economic sense,'' said Al Becker, a spokesman for American."


Dont also forget CO was a big player already in Israel with its daily 777 service.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-24 09:42:37 and read 7833 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 27):
and frankly, I still don't understand how any court could possibly have sided with them - AA didn't buy TW or legally take on their debts!

Here is the scenario.

If you employ people, and you let them go, you must provide severance payment per the law in Israel.

While America might be a easy hire and easy fire country, many many overseas employment markets have very clear guidelines of how you employ or terminate folks.

In this case the Israeli employees failed to get not only the adequate 30-day notice (they were fired overnight in mass), but the company failed provide required severance payments which by law at the time was to receive one month's salary for every year worked.

Following the shutdown, TWA offered severance pay of $3,000 per employee, which was deemed to be breach of law.


As far as the merger, AMR did buy TWA, with the intention AA would become the successor company.
Its a little late to argue otherwise. If AA felt it was so clear it could have pushed its case in the Israeli court accordingly.

Anyhow per April 2001 press release when the merger closed:

American Airlines became the world's largest air carrier Monday after acquiring bankrupt Trans World Airlines.

The deal, which closes the books on the longest-flying carrier in American commercial aviation saw the Fort Worth, Texas-based AMR Corp. agree to pay $742 million for the airline, plus the assumption of $3.5 billion in debt.

Robert W. Baker, vice chairman of American Airlines, was named chief executive officer of TWA L.L.C., the new, wholly owned subsidiary of American."

"Today we celebrate a true milestone for the employees and customers of both American Airlines and TWA. The combination marks the beginning of a new era in aviation, as we bring together some of the most valuable assets and some of the best people in the industry," said Donald J. Carty, chairman and CEO of American Airlines.
"


And this really has nothing to do with Israel being special. It could have happened in other places - like France, but instead TWA/AA opted to properly pay the severance of its employees there which the court noted in its judgement.

Frankly AA at the end imo basically said, screw TLV. Its was not worth it to them.
It could not say the same about France for example and did what it was required to and paid out.

Eventually AA will have to face the music. Its been 12-years already, and maybe this US merger will finally force it to face its obligations in Israel.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: dlphoenix
Posted 2013-02-24 11:07:16 and read 7309 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 27):
While those former TW employees may feel shafted, (and frankly, I still don't understand how any court could possibly have sided with them - AA didn't buy TW or legally take on their debts!) enabling a combined AA/US to offer service to/from TLV would be a greater benefit to the citizens of Israel as a whole.

The employees not only feel shafted, they have a court ruling that confirms that.

I think you are overlooking the fact that any international company opening a local subsidiary assumes responsibilities to abide by the local law. This applies to the parent company, not the subsidiary (This applies to IBM in India, Nestle in Kenya, Microsoft in France and most airlines that open local offices around the world). This process is required to prevent the international entity from leaving the country without closing the business according to the prevailing local laws if something doesn't work (as was the case with AA/TWA).

In the grand scheme of things a settlement of $10-20M will not move the needle comparing to other integration expenses (I am sure UA spent more than 10 time as much in SHARES damage control expenses only by now).

And AA will keep this route as long as Doug Parker is the boss; nobody in corporate America will push to close the route the new CEO is raving about.

Happy travels
DLP

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: ultrapig
Posted 2013-02-24 11:28:30 and read 7217 times.

I'm a bankruptcy lawyer. The law is clear.

Under US law AA and USAIR are not liable for any of TWA's obligations. AA bought TWA's assets under 11 USC 363 of the bankruptcy code free and clear of all liens claims and encumbrances. AA is no more liable for pension benefits of an Israeli worker than would someone who bought a TWA plane at liquidation. Its not a question of "non dischargeability". Israeli worker's claims was to the pot of money AA paid for TWA's assets a pot which probably went to mostly secured creditors. In short if this all occured in the Israeli workers are clearly out of luck.

US bankrutpcy laws do not necessarily apply to to Israeli workers in Israel. If Israeli law makes AA liable for the pensions and an Israel Court's order to enforce their rights IN ISRAEL is not necessarily barred by the US bankrutpcy Court. Thus if the workers obtained or have obtained relief in Israel theretically AA assets could be seized in Israel.

This is not a morally right or wrong situation-Had AA not bought TWA the latter would have failed. This is how capitalism works-If you have a pension from a company that goes out of business you may have rights under government programs but corporations, unlike government can't print money.

If the merger goes through you can be assured that the merged company will obtain legal advice from Israeli counsel before continuing service. If counsel advises
that they are at risk they will lobby for a resolution with the government or fly their planes elsewhere.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-24 11:42:11 and read 7066 times.

Quoting ultrapig (Reply 31):
If the merger goes through you can be assured that the merged company will obtain legal advice from Israeli counsel before continuing service. If counsel advises
that they are at risk they will lobby for a resolution with the government or fly their planes elsewhere.

Okay, but what about the lobby display??     

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: Navion
Posted 2013-02-24 12:17:40 and read 6829 times.

Quoting ultrapig (Reply 31):
Under US law AA and USAIR are not liable for any of TWA's obligations. AA bought TWA's assets under 11 USC 363 of the bankruptcy code free and clear of all liens claims and encumbrances. AA is no more liable for pension benefits of an Israeli worker than would someone who bought a TWA plane at liquidation. Its not a question of "non dischargeability". Israeli worker's claims was to the pot of money AA paid for TWA's assets a pot which probably went to mostly secured creditors. In short if this all occured in the Israeli workers are clearly out of luck.

Finally a cogent comment on this issue. Very well said. To make AA responsible in this situation would be unfair and worse, would set an ominious precedent for any business venture in any jurisdiction. The people who need to clean up this debt are the creditors who received money from AA for the remaining TWA assets. They are TWA with reagard to the Israeli situation. Impound one of the creditors yachts. This isn't AA's responsibility morally or otherwise.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-24 12:21:54 and read 6793 times.

Quoting Navion (Reply 33):
This isn't AA's responsibility morally or otherwise.

Sure it is.. see below.

Quoting ultrapig (Reply 31):
US bankrutpcy laws do not necessarily apply to to Israeli workers in Israel. If Israeli law makes AA liable for the pensions and an Israel Court's order to enforce their rights IN ISRAEL is not necessarily barred by the US bankrutpcy Court. Thus if the workers obtained or have obtained relief in Israel theretically AA assets could be seized in Israel.

Simply put US BK process does not free parties from compliance of relevant foreign laws or foreign court orders.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: Navion
Posted 2013-02-24 12:32:35 and read 6700 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 34):
Simply put US BK process does not free parties from compliance of relevant foreign laws or foreign court orders.

Which is why I said "To make AA responsible in this situation would be unfair and worse, would set an ominious precedent for any business venture in any jurisdiction." This is third world type legal behavior and would only chill the interest of any potential acquisition of assets of a company which has done business in Israel (or any other jurisdiction which this type of law). It's too bad. Once again, Israel should direct their legal focus on to the legal remains of TWA which is the creditors, not AA.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-02-24 12:42:16 and read 6639 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 29):
If you employ people, and you let them go, you must provide severance payment per the law in Israel.

I understand, except AA never employed a single one of those people in Israel. Not one.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 29):
As far as the merger, AMR did buy TWA

No, as previously cited, AMR bought most of TWA's assets and operated those purchased assets - including their operating certificate - as a wholly-owned subsidiary of AMR. AMR did not "buy TWA", full-stop.

Quoting ultrapig (Reply 31):
AA bought TWA's assets under 11 USC 363 of the bankruptcy code free and clear of all liens claims and encumbrances.

  

I understand that US bankruptcy law doesn't supersede other laws in other nations, however I agree wholeheartedly with Navion's comments:

Quoting Navion (Reply 35):
To make AA responsible in this situation would be unfair and worse, would set an ominious precedent for any business venture in any jurisdiction

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: LJ
Posted 2013-02-24 13:29:42 and read 6400 times.

Quoting Navion (Reply 35):
Which is why I said "To make AA responsible in this situation would be unfair and worse, would set an ominious precedent for any business venture in any jurisdiction."

The presedents have already been set. You may think that this is something which doesn't happen often, but in reality it happens more than you know. Moreover, it can happen in virtually eevry country in the world. Finally, how unfair is it when AA decided to pay the French workers and not the Israeli? The only reason probably because they didin't want to axe CDG.

Quoting Navion (Reply 35):
This is third world type legal behavior and would only chill the interest of any potential acquisition of assets of a company which has done business in Israel (or any other jurisdiction which this type of law).

You can include the whole of Europe (probably excluding UK) and still AA flies to continental Europe. Doesn't seem they mind that these countries have these laws..

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: AussieItaliano
Posted 2013-02-24 13:36:02 and read 6387 times.

Quoting Navion (Reply 33):
Finally a cogent comment on this issue. Very well said. To make AA responsible in this situation would be unfair and worse, would set an ominious precedent for any business venture in any jurisdiction. The people who need to clean up this debt are the creditors who received money from AA for the remaining TWA assets. They are TWA with reagard to the Israeli situation. Impound one of the creditors yachts. This isn't AA's responsibility morally or otherwise.

Except that an Israeli court HAS made AA responsible.

When foreign airlines fly to the USA, they are not permitted to exercise their interpretation of their home country's law regarding their actions in the United States.

Why should the situation be any different if reversed?

If AA wants to fly to Israel, they will have to respect Israeli law and whatever the Israeli court's interpretation of that law is.

If they aren't willing to do that, don't fly there.

It's just like me drinking booze in Saudi Arabia. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a beer, but under Saudi law, I would be subject to punishment. My only means of protest against punishment would be in a Saudi court. If I'm not OK with the punishment, then I shouldn't drink beer in Saudi Arabia, and if I'm not OK with being judged by a Saudi court, then I shouldn't go to Saudi Arabia.

I do realise that AA has never flown to Israel, only TW did, but the Israeli court has deemed them responsible, so their only recourse is to an Israeli court if they think that the judgment was not fair.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: laca773
Posted 2013-02-24 13:53:06 and read 6288 times.

I'm very interested in knowing how US does on PHL-TLV? How are the yields? How do they do in J? Paid versus non-rev/reward seats?

The bottom line is AA has to pay or get out! Why is that so hard for people to understand. It really shouldn't be. It will be interesting to see if the new AA executive management team and it's board will put this to rest and pay what the long time Israeli employees are due!

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-02-24 13:54:45 and read 6259 times.

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 38):
their only recourse is to an Israeli court if they think that the judgment was not fair.

Previously it wasn't worth AA spending any money on going back to court since they had no intention of serving Israel. Since that has likely changed, I'd imagine AA is definitely willing to appeal the Israeli court's ruling in hopes of getting it reduced or tossed entirely, or possibly even lobby the US and Israeli governments to help broker a mutually-acceptable settlement.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-02-24 14:03:31 and read 6209 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 36):
No, as previously cited, AMR bought most of TWA's assets and operated those purchased assets - including their operating certificate - as a wholly-owned subsidiary of AMR. AMR did not "buy TWA", full-stop.

How does the above statement then reconcile with this April 2001 press release upon deal closure that LAXIntl posted earlier?

"American Airlines became the world's largest air carrier Monday after acquiring bankrupt Trans World Airlines.

The deal, which closes the books on the longest-flying carrier in American commercial aviation saw the Fort Worth, Texas-based AMR Corp. agree to pay $742 million for the airline, plus the assumption of $3.5 billion in debt.

Robert W. Baker, vice chairman of American Airlines, was named chief executive officer of TWA L.L.C., the new, wholly owned subsidiary of American."

It seems to me that "acquiring bankrupt TWA" is the same as "buying" it, is it not? And the press release also says it paid $742M for THE airline (not for parts of it or most of it), and assumed $3.5B of debt. It is not like they just bought the assets in a liquidation sale.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-24 16:04:35 and read 5661 times.

I'll try to shed some light on this to our US members. The US employers and employees are normally "at will". Both parties can disengage at any time for whatever reason. In Europe and a lot of other countries, you have a contract. It's very hard to get out of these. Very hard to fire employees unless they have done something "gross" and outrageous..like stealing. that's why TW,AA, is responsible for the dues. Very simple.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: crAAzy
Posted 2013-02-24 16:16:38 and read 5574 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 41):

It seems to me that "acquiring bankrupt TWA" is the same as "buying" it, is it not? And the press release also says it paid $742M for THE airline (not for parts of it or most of it), and assumed $3.5B of debt. It is not like they just bought the assets in a liquidation sale.

This debt likely had more to do with aircraft payments/leases, facilities, gate leases, taxes, etc. that were acquired. They did not just assume all of TWA's debt outright.

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 38):

Except that an Israeli court HAS made AA responsible.

If AA wants to fly to Israel, they will have to respect Israeli law and whatever the Israeli court's interpretation of that law is.

        

Again, I'll point out that AA in the past has made it clear hat has no plans of flying into the middle east for multiple reasons first and foremost being security concerns and economics. They're more than happy to let their partners do the flying and I see no indication that things have changed. Certainly not enough to justify 1 daily flight PHL-TLV and they're not likely to enter markets like NYC,ORD,LAX where they code share with LY.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2013-02-24 16:25:11 and read 5565 times.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 43):
Again, I'll point out that AA in the past has made it clear hat has no plans of flying into the middle east for multiple reasons first and foremost being security concerns and economics. They're more than happy to let their partners do the flying and I see no indication that things have changed. Certainly not enough to justify 1 daily flight PHL-TLV and they're not likely to enter markets like NYC,ORD,LAX where they code share with LY.

That AA is dead. The management of the new AA has different priorities. The PHL-TLV has done great for US and I don't see them dropping it, even if they have to pay 20 Million dollars, its not that much money. I could also see AA adding a MIA-TLV to complement PHL.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-02-24 16:49:44 and read 5431 times.

crAAzy..For AA to say that and mean it doesn't make sense. They would LOVE to fly TLV. They CAN'T without paying 10s of millions. That's why they don't. It's a huge money maker for airlines. If AA wasn't responsible for the debt, they would be flying there already. Do you really think AA mngt is gonna say.." Oh we would love to fly to TLV but we don't any to pay what's owed?" No lol of course not. Instead the answer is " security concerns and economical reasons" and they can rely on there partners.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: jmc1975
Posted 2013-02-24 17:01:53 and read 5343 times.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 44):
I could also see AA adding a MIA-TLV to complement PHL.

Why would they dump a bunch of added capacity on a route that has limited network connectivity? A MIA-TLV route would only capture local traffic and Caribbean & Latin American connections, which is adequately served by BA via LHR and IB via MAD.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-02-24 17:02:29 and read 5389 times.

According to CO CEO Larry Kellner, Tel Aviv was their most profitable longhaul service back in 2006.

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000162917

Certainly no reason why AA could likewise also not prosper on commercial grounds in Israel.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: Navion
Posted 2013-02-24 17:03:40 and read 5354 times.

It's just like me drinking booze in Saudi Arabia. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a beer, but under Saudi law, I would be subject to punishment. My only means of protest against punishment would be in a Saudi court. If I'm not OK with the punishment, then I shouldn't drink beer in Saudi Arabia, and if I'm not OK with being judged by a Saudi court, then I shouldn't go to Saudi Arabia.


AA didn't figuratively "drink the booze" in this case. They haven't done anything any differently than US, CO, or DL with regard to Israel other than buy the assets of TWA. A press release saying they've "bought TWA" doesn't give all of the details of the deal (which fills hundreds of pages no doubt). There seems to be a political element to this.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2013-02-24 17:45:08 and read 5305 times.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 46):
Why would they dump a bunch of added capacity on a route that has limited network connectivity? A MIA-TLV route would only capture local traffic and Caribbean & Latin American connections, which is adequately served by BA via LHR and IB via MAD.

Maybe because it's a huge local market of around 115 PDEW? It would also capture connections from LatAm and Florida.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2013-02-24 17:51:33 and read 5259 times.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 46):
A MIA-TLV route would only capture local traffic and Caribbean & Latin American connection

South Florida, I believe, is #3 in US-Israel traffic, behind New York and Los Angeles. There is demand, albeit maybe not daily or high yield.

[Edited 2013-02-24 17:51:51]

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2013-02-24 18:06:20 and read 5227 times.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 50):
South Florida, I believe, is #3 in US-Israel traffic, behind New York and Los Angeles. There is demand, albeit maybe not daily or high yield.

Definitely large enough to support daily service. Not high yielding, but fares are average.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-02-24 19:30:49 and read 5101 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 41):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 36):No, as previously cited, AMR bought most of TWA's assets and operated those purchased assets - including their operating certificate - as a wholly-owned subsidiary of AMR. AMR did not "buy TWA", full-stop.
How does the above statement then reconcile with this April 2001 press release upon deal closure that LAXIntl posted earlier?

Because you write press releases to be understood by about an 8th grade level; you don't confuse the hell out of 99% of the news-reading public by saying "Today American Airlines purchased most of Trans World Airlines' equipment and left behind a bankrupt company that's a shell of its former self to the creditors since it's in Chapter 11 Bankruptcy in the Southern District of New York..."

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: Schweigend
Posted 2013-02-24 21:24:46 and read 4946 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 47):
According to CO CEO Larry Kellner, Tel Aviv was their most profitable longhaul service back in 2006.

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000162917

Certainly no reason why AA could likewise also not prosper on commercial grounds in Israel.

Very much true. Old AA must have had a "bug up their butt" about TLV -- why didn't they just pay the $20mil, or whatever the judgment is, since airlines commonly have write-offs in their quarterly financial reports that run into the hundreds of millions of dollars? Parker in charge may portend a different approach.

And thank you for providing the 2006 link above. The article contains the following interesting statement:

Quote:
Continental Airlines chairman and CEO Lawrence W. Kellner says the Israel route is very important to the airline, and that it intended to add another daily flight in 2009, using the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

A THIRD daily EWR-TLV flight using the Dreamliner?? I wonder if new UA still has such a thing in their sights, from Newark or another hub. And it's a little sad to be reminded that CO expected to be flying the 787 in 2009 -- look where we are now in 2013 and still no Dreamliners flying!   

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-24 22:20:10 and read 4854 times.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 53):
A THIRD daily EWR-TLV flight using the Dreamliner?? I wonder if new UA still has such a thing in their sights, from Newark or another hub. And it's a little sad to be reminded that CO expected to be flying the 787 in 2009 -- look where we are now in 2013 and still no Dreamliners flying!

I wish DL would establish either a second TLV flight at JFK or another hub.

When DL originally took over the PA route, they suffered from the fact that, at least out of TLV, that a good portion of the pax were redeeming their PanAm FF miles. Word was that TLV was the "capitol" for FFs on the PA system. So, even though they were flying an A-310 or 767 at least 75% full, every day (plus an average of 25K of cargo), they weren't making any money on the route, especially westbound. Eastbound, they were hardly carrying ANY cargo, so all the money was to be made in the other direction, if at all.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: catiii
Posted 2013-02-24 22:42:28 and read 4807 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 54):

When DL took over PA's ops at TLV, wasn't the operation a daily 727 to ORY, which they then moved to FRA and operated with a 762 before they got out of the market for a few years? I didn't think the nonstops started until June 2000 with the MD-11, which when away after 9/11. I know ATL didn't start until 2006, and JFK restarted in 2008.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-24 22:48:28 and read 4791 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 55):
Quoting mayor (Reply 54):


When DL took over PA's ops at TLV, wasn't the operation a daily 727 to ORY, which they then moved to FRA and operated with a 762 before they got out of the market for a few years? I didn't think the nonstops started until June 2000 with the MD-11, which when away after 9/11. I know ATL didn't start until 2006, and JFK restarted in 2008.

When I was there for the transition in '91, the flight was TLV-Paris-JFK with an A310-200/300. I don't believe they ever had FRA service because the managers, during the time I was there, if they had to fly to FRA, they flew on LH.


Later it became a 767-300, nonstop to JFK and for awhile, even an MD-11. I never saw a DL (or PA) 727 while I was there nor any indication that there ever had been that equipment, there.


This is to the best of my recollection. I could be wrong about when non-stops started, but I don't think I was off by much.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: ripcordd
Posted 2013-02-24 23:47:36 and read 4749 times.

Sure you can make AA pay but after BK and a merger with US AIR there will be a brand new company no longer the old AA it will be a new AA maybe it will be American Airways using US AIR flying cert this sounds like one way to get around that.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: Schweigend
Posted 2013-02-25 00:06:21 and read 4715 times.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 57):

But why would AA want to "get around" paying up? Relatively speaking, it is not a large amount of money, and morally it is the right thing to do.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-02-25 00:34:27 and read 4687 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 52):
Because you write press releases to be understood by about an 8th grade level; you don't confuse the hell out of 99% of the news-reading public by saying "Today American Airlines purchased most of Trans World Airlines' equipment and left behind a bankrupt company that's a shell of its former self to the creditors since it's in Chapter 11 Bankruptcy in the Southern District of New York..."

I disagree. Press Releases for major events like this are carefully worded and vetted by all kinds of lawyers and approved by the CEO and the Board. They could easily have added the detail you have above in the main body of the press release. Just like when DL acquired a chunk of Pan Am, but it was clear it was not acquiring all of it, and especially not many of its liabilities.

The way it was worded, it is no wonder the Israeli court sided with the former TWA staff in Israel.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: realsim
Posted 2013-02-25 03:07:18 and read 4564 times.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 57):
Sure you can make AA pay but after BK and a merger with US AIR there will be a brand new company no longer the old AA it will be a new AA maybe it will be American Airways using US AIR flying cert this sounds like one way to get around that.

I'm sure the labour law in Israel, being similar to the European ones, will consider the new holding of AA the successor company, and then they will still have to pay what they owe to the employees.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: LJ
Posted 2013-02-25 03:42:46 and read 4527 times.

Quoting realsim (Reply 60):

I'm sure the labour law in Israel, being similar to the European ones, will consider the new holding of AA the successor company, and then they will still have to pay what they owe to the employees.

Not entirely correct, though it probably does apply to AA/US (as far as I know). If AA and US were to remain seperate legal entities, then the claim on AA doesn't go automatically to the holding company. However, if the legal entity of AA ceases to exist in its current form, then the claim goes to whoever succeeds. I don't know the specifics of Israeli law, but under Dutch law in order to be viewed as a seperate legal entity one has to operate as such. Thus painting all your aircraft in AA livery doesn't help. Moreover, having a seperate legal entity alive (which is technically in Chapter 11) costs money and create operational limitations.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: jfk787nyc
Posted 2013-02-25 04:18:09 and read 4489 times.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 46):

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 44):
I could also see AA adding a MIA-TLV to complement PHL.

Why would they dump a bunch of added capacity on a route that has limited network connectivity? A MIA-TLV route would only capture local traffic and Caribbean & Latin American connections, which is adequately served by BA via LHR and IB via MAD.

That is totally not true --

First of all most Israelis have 10 year USA Multi-Visit visas in their passports - Miami is the Third largest destination for Israelis to visit in the USA.

The flight opens a massive amount of travel destinations from Israel on a 1 stop basis all over South American and Caribbean.

Miami-Tel Aviv is on radar for EL AL as well.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: gilesdavies
Posted 2013-02-25 04:31:38 and read 4502 times.

From what I understand the PHL-TLV route has excellent loads and is one of US Airways' most profitable routes...

Like others have said, I doubt they will drop the route post-merger... If anything, I would imagine other routes would be added. Maybe DFW, MIA or ORD???

I can't quote you anything on this, but I am sure I have heard about companies in the past getting around these kind of problems by creating a separate company with a different trading name to operate routes like this.

I am sure British Airways did something similar when operating on some Asian routes a few years back, and operated an airline called British Asia Airways, to get around some political situations.

So for example AA could create a company called ABC Holdings, and allocate/register two aircraft to the new company, purely to operate the Israeli flights. Passenger would notice no difference, but in essence ABC Holdings are operating the route on behalf of American Airlines/US Airways.

Or could they get someone else to operate the route on their behalf as maybe a franchise agreement, in a similar way that like some of US Airways Express routes are done? Where you have Republic Airways for example.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-02-25 05:38:25 and read 4363 times.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 63):
I can't quote you anything on this, but I am sure I have heard about companies in the past getting around these kind of problems by creating a separate company with a different trading name to operate routes like this.

They could try this. But equally the Israeli govt could refuse to give this new entity rights to TLV.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: deltacto
Posted 2013-02-25 10:38:05 and read 4110 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 56):

"When I was there for the transition in '91, the flight was TLV-Paris-JFK with an A310-200/300. I don't believe they ever had FRA service because the managers, during the time I was there, if they had to fly to FRA, they flew on LH.


Later it became a 767-300, nonstop to JFK and for awhile, even an MD-11. I never saw a DL (or PA) 727 while I was there nor any indication that there ever had been that equipment, there.


This is to the best of my recollection. I could be wrong about when non-stops started, but I don't think I was off by much."



Exactly correct
Starting in 1991 - DL 118/119 JFK-ORY-TLV on the A-310
I don't remember exactly when TLV was discontinued.
In 2000 DL started nonstop JFK-TLV with the MD11,
which lasted no more than a year or two.
DL never served TLV from FRA

[Edited 2013-02-25 10:46:49]

[Edited 2013-02-25 11:01:11]

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: deltacto
Posted 2013-02-25 12:10:05 and read 3988 times.

Quoting deltacto (Reply 65):
In 2000 DL started nonstop JFK-TLV with the MD11,

Correction - JFK-TLV nonstop started June 1, 2001 and was discontinued shortly after 9/11

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1169073730.html

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-02-25 12:59:34 and read 3916 times.

Quoting deltacto (Reply 65):
Exactly correct
Starting in 1991 - DL 118/119 JFK-ORY-TLV on the A-310
I don't remember exactly when TLV was discontinued.
In 2000 DL started nonstop JFK-TLV with the MD11,
which lasted no more than a year or two.
DL never served TLV from FRA
Quoting deltacto (Reply 66):
Correction - JFK-TLV nonstop started June 1, 2001 and was discontinued shortly after 9/11

Thanks for the info. I do remember that the F/As that were based in TLV, would fly to Paris in the morning, spend all day there (shopping, probably) and would come back in the evening and work the ORY-TLV leg.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: jmc1975
Posted 2013-02-25 16:57:51 and read 3740 times.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 50):
South Florida, I believe, is #3 in US-Israel traffic, behind New York and Los Angeles. There is demand, albeit maybe not daily or high yield.

So in other words, it sounds like a good market for EL AL to potentially re-enter, perhaps on a 3-4x/wk basis.

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 62):
That is totally not true --

First of all most Israelis have 10 year USA Multi-Visit visas in their passports - Miami is the Third largest destination for Israelis to visit in the USA.

Wait...oh I feel it coming!

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 62):
Miami-Tel Aviv is on radar for EL AL as well.

  

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: a380us
Posted 2013-03-05 07:14:31 and read 3245 times.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 63):
I am sure British Airways did something similar when operating on some Asian routes a few years back, and operated an airline called British Asia Airways, to get around some political situations.

Actually a number of airlines did this as I recall BA, AF, and KL, and this was done for political reasons as airlines were not allowed to fly to both the Republic of China, and the Peoples Republic of China. I highly doubt the Israeli legal system would allow for AA to get around it so simply, in fact you cant even book flights to TLV on any AA number anymore (I am pretty sure).

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-05 08:17:24 and read 3082 times.

Quoting rangercarp (Reply 4):
Wouldn't they have been settled in TWA's bankruptcy?

An argument could be made that because AA announced the purchase before the BK filing, AA assumed the responsibilities of TWA. Also, bankruptcy in the US does not relieve a corporation of debt in other nations. The laws of those nations apply.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 24):
AMR very early in its BK process filed with the US court to make it clear they did not seek to discharge any foreign debts.

Even AA in its current bankruptcy acknowledges that non-US debts are handled differently than US debts.

Quoting dlphoenix (Reply 20):
Under Israeli corporate law the employees are second priority creditors (the first being government taxes). Banks and other lenders are lower down the ladder.

A key part of the issue is that AA/TWA made a settlement with ex-TWA workers in France, but did not attempt to reach a similar settlement with ex-TWA workers in Israel.

So how can the AA management say the French workers deserved settlement and compensation, and the Israeli ones did not?

Simple, AA wanted to fly to France without facing any legal issues.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 15):
AA has stated time and time again that has no plans of flying into the middle east, the reasons why, and that they're more than happy to let their partners do the flying.
Quoting dlphoenix (Reply 18):
Bear in mind the the new AA will be led by a person who was i charge when US started flying to Israel, a route they claim is very profitable.

It is important to note that the $13 million orignal settlement, and the probable $25 million currently owed with interest over the years - is a relatively minor sum for an airline the size of AA.

If they want to fly to Israel, they will fly to Israel. As noted above - all it takes to solve the 'issue' is a check, actually a few checks. Which will be issued quickly if the 'new' AA thinks they can make money on the route.

The reason for no AA service to TLV is the basic decision of any route - the route doesn't make economic sense to the AA management. The costs, including any settlement, vs the potential profit do not justify the commitment of aircraft, crew members, etc. to the route.

[Edited 2013-03-05 08:19:36]

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-03-18 09:30:01 and read 2431 times.

Not sure what happened by last week we had a thread about AA looking to do MIA-TLV.

Apparently this was mentioned by US executives.

Was this a naive comment, with them not being aware of AA's history in Israel, or is the new AA truly interested in resolving its legal issues ?

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-18 11:34:35 and read 2246 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 71):
Was this a naive comment, with them not being aware of AA's history in Israel, or is the new AA truly interested in resolving its legal issues ?

Which executives?

I would not expect executives, or workers, in most divisions of the airline to be aware there are any issues. Certainly not on the board of directors or senior executive suite level.

(The number of outstanding legal issues/ claims for a company the size of AA or US has to be in the hundreds, maybe thousands. Though most are for small amounts.)

Its a pretty small specific item impacting one airport. In a world wide system, why would anyone assume there is an outstanding decade old legal issue at an airport they don't serve?

Though I'm sure someone in the legal department would bring it up if they really started to consider service to TLV.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2013-03-18 14:06:29 and read 2054 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 72):
Which executives?

I would not expect executives, or workers, in most divisions of the airline to be aware there are any issues. Certainly not on the board of directors or senior executive suite level.
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 72):
Its a pretty small specific item impacting one airport. In a world wide system, why would anyone assume there is an outstanding decade old legal issue at an airport they don't serve?

I'm pretty sure that if we know about it, the appropriate executives also know about it, and have for a long time.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: Miami
Posted 2013-03-18 14:10:42 and read 2048 times.

My tread was deleted when I said that AA-US are planning to launch Tel-Aviv from MIA and JFK.

It was deleted because I didn't give a " good"source. It was from ExMiami.org and US Airways told them.

http://exmiami.org/threads/american-...-flights-in-post-merger-plans.497/

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: etops1
Posted 2013-03-18 14:26:53 and read 1998 times.

This entireJFK/ MIA-TLV thing is totally false . The article is BS . AA has not stated any intentions of introducing either route after the merger . I am not saying that it will never happen in the future but there is simply no truth to this at all . This was never mentioned by any AA/US executive at all . Don't believe everything you read .

[Edited 2013-03-18 14:28:17]

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: LAXdude1023
Posted 2013-03-18 14:40:16 and read 1935 times.

Quoting Miami (Reply 74):
My tread was deleted when I said that AA-US are planning to launch Tel-Aviv from MIA and JFK.

It was deleted because I didn't give a " good"source. It was from ExMiami.org and US Airways told them.

To be fair, using another message board as a sources is kind of bunk.

Topic: RE: AA And TLV
Username: AADC10
Posted 2013-03-18 15:27:56 and read 1832 times.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 58):
But why would AA want to "get around" paying up? Relatively speaking, it is not a large amount of money, and morally it is the right thing to do.

The amount might actually be fairly large. The amount of $10 million was floated early in the thread. Add a dozen years of interest and penalties, that could be several times higher. How many flights would it take to recover $10 million? $40 million? Is that a price worth paying to add low yield passengers on MIA-TLV and keep PHL-TLV? Perhaps but it would have to pay off within a year or two.


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