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Topic: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-03-19 07:52:07 and read 7642 times.

Part 1 is getting a little long now, so here is part 2.

The link again to part 1:

LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 1 (by FlyingAY Mar 14 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Have fun.

Thanks.

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-03-19 08:11:46 and read 7592 times.

So to recap, the Lufthansa Group has placed the following orders for a total of 108 aircraft:

30 A320-200
35 A320-200neo
35 A321-200neo
02 A380-800
06 777-300ER


The 777-300ERs will be going to LX (Swiss International Airlines) to allow them to increase capacity on key routes like HKG and BKK. Deliveries will begin in 2016. The A320 family and A380 orders are for replacement of older airframes in the LH fleet.

LH is planning a widebody order in the second half of the year to replace their A340-300 and A340-600 fleet. RFPs are expected to be tendered to Airbus for the A350 and Boeing for the 777X. The 787 appears to have been eliminated from consideration for this order.

The 777-300ERs are expected to be configured with 3+4+3 seating in Economy, in addition to First Class (1+2+1) and Business Class (likely the current 2+2+2 product). As LH is planning to add Premium Economy to their fleet starting in 2014, it may be that LX will do the same with these 777-300ERs (likely in 2+4+2).

[Edited 2013-03-19 08:22:40]

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: steman
Posted 2013-03-19 08:19:26 and read 7527 times.

30 A320 OEO means current engine option?
If so, I don´t see the rationale behind it. Why go for 30 new frames which are virtually the same of those delivered about 20 years ago, when you could go NEO all the way?
Since they are both being built on the same lines, it can´t be for earlier delivery slots, can it?

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-03-19 08:20:15 and read 7526 times.

Quoting steman (Reply 2):
If so, I don´t see the rationale behind it. Why go for 30 new frames which are virtually the same of those delivered about 20 years ago, when you could go NEO all the way?

LH needs to replace older planes prior to the availability of the A320-200neo.

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-03-19 08:27:30 and read 7468 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
LH needs to replace older planes prior to the availability of the A320-200neo.

Or expand using more plains.

And anyway if you buy a new A 320 there were improvements compared to the 20 year old.

A few PIPs regarding engine and also aerodynamics and LH is taking the new birds with sharklets.

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-03-19 08:30:30 and read 7437 times.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 4):
Or expand using more plains.

Per Lufthansa chairman and CEO Christoph Franz: “The Airbus aircraft purchases focus all on the modernization of our fleet and not expansion.”

He also noted the 34 aircraft scheduled for delivery in 2013 would almost exclusively replace older aircraft.

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-03-19 08:31:53 and read 7435 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Per Lufthansa chairman and CEO Christoph Franz: “The Airbus aircraft purchases focus all on the modernization of our fleet and not expansion.”

He also noted the 34 aircraft scheduled for delivery in 2013 would almost exclusively replace older aircraft.

Exactly. LH doesn't plane to expand at the moment. The focus is on new airplanes to replace the old ones. The average age of the LH airplanes is quite high and the new airplanes are needed, sooner or later.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: travelavnut
Posted 2013-03-19 08:50:40 and read 7328 times.

Quoting steman (Reply 2):
which are virtually the same of those delivered about 20 years ago

Except they are not really the same. Don't have the exact numbers but I seem to remember the latest build A320s are a few %-point more efficient than the originals.

Also availability would play a big role I pressume.

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-19 11:14:52 and read 7028 times.

Quoting steman (Reply 2):
30 A320 OEO means current engine option?
If so, I don´t see the rationale behind it. Why go for 30 new frames which are virtually the same of those delivered about 20 years ago, when you could go NEO all the way?
Since they are both being built on the same lines, it can´t be for earlier delivery slots, can it?

Over the years there were several small updates on the A320 so they are not basically the same as 20 years ago.
Like travelnut said availability also plays a big role. LH has one of the oldest A320 flying around and their 737s have also high cycles. The early build A320s and 737s have to be replaced within the next couple of years.

If I remember correctly LH has not phased out any A320s yet, so the oldest in their fleet must be build in 1988 ?

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: reffado
Posted 2013-03-19 11:36:10 and read 6954 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 8):
If I remember correctly LH has not phased out any A320s yet, so the oldest in their fleet must be build in 1988 ?

Seeing that their earliest delivery A320 still in service entered service in 10-1989, that would be correct. Guess these older frames will go straight to the scrappers?

Also, not sure if it has been answered before (probably has) but will the 733's and 735's be replaced with more A320 aircraft or with new 737's?

[Edited 2013-03-19 11:37:56]

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-19 11:42:46 and read 6919 times.

Quoting reffado (Reply 9):
Also, not sure if it has been answered before (probably has) but will the 733's and 735's be replaced with more A320 aircraft or with new 737's?
LH only has Airbus narrowbody on order. The days of the 737 with LH are counted.

Quoting reffado (Reply 9):
Guess these older frames will go straight to the scrappers?

That would be a safe bet   Some 737s as well as some 747s already have seen this fate

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
He also noted the 34 aircraft scheduled for delivery in 2013 would almost exclusively replace older aircraft.

So that means more 737s and 747s are on their way out this year. Maybe the first A320s as well. Last thing I heard is that LH is planning to keep 17 747-400s for the time being. Maybe Wilco can confirm that ?

[Edited 2013-03-19 11:49:00]

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-03-19 11:51:49 and read 6873 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 8):
If I remember correctly LH has not phased out any A320s yet, so the oldest in their fleet must be build in 1988 ?

MSN 069 delivered 16-10-1989

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-03-19 11:56:05 and read 6839 times.

Wanted to reply to this from Part 1:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 219):
LH is planning to launch a Premium Economy Class product, are they not?
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 228):
When was that announced? I can't recall seeing anything.

They first announced it in May 2012 - http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/pre...2012/december/05/article/2279.html

They then announced about two weeks ago it would be introduced in 2014 - http://atwonline.com/components/luft...troduce-premium-economy-class-2014

That press release and the ATW item are only referring to LH itself, not the Lufthansa Group. LH press releases normally only refer to LH. Other members of the group handle their own announcements themselves. I still have my doubts that LX is interested in premium economy or 10-abreast 777s which in my opinion would be a big mistake for a carrier like LX..

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: reffado
Posted 2013-03-19 11:59:50 and read 6829 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
10-abreast 777s which in my opinion would be a big mistake for a carrier like LX..

I may be mistaken, but I see LX as a "premium" carrier. 10 abreast wouldn't suit them, IMO.

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-03-19 12:03:58 and read 6795 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 10):
So that means more 737s and 747s are on their way out this year. Maybe the first A320s as well. Last thing I heard is that LH is planning to keep 17 747-400s for the time being. Maybe Wilco can confirm that ?

This number is changing a lot lately. I hear they plan to fly with 29 747's (744/ 748). So at the moment we have 5 748's, one more to come in March. That makes 6. And then it would be 23 744's. With the summer schedule starting next week more destinations are flown with 744 again. So I guess we still need them.

Quoting columba (Reply 10):
That would be a safe bet   Some 737s as well as some 747s already have seen this fate

It looks like it yes. Scrapper it will be. THe old 320's are old and have quite a few cycles as well. More and more 737's, 744's and 320 will see the scrapper, sooner or later.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: musapapaya
Posted 2013-03-19 12:26:26 and read 6718 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 8):
If I remember correctly LH has not phased out any A320s yet, so the oldest in their fleet must be build in 1988 ?

I remember flying on a 1989 made A320 from LHR to either FRA or MUC, it was right after it being renovated with new slim seats. Have to say it didnt look old at all, it was only after arrival and went online and check its registration until we found out it was >20 years old.

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: wilco737
Posted 2013-03-19 12:31:14 and read 6691 times.

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 15):
I remember flying on a 1989 made A320 from LHR to either FRA or MUC, it was right after it being renovated with new slim seats. Have to say it didnt look old at all, it was only after arrival and went online and check its registration until we found out it was >20 years old

LH tries to maintain their airplanes well as we keep them quite long as you see. But of course at some point that will be very difficult.

Quoting columba (Reply 10):
Maybe Wilco can confirm that ?

One more comment here. I am working for LH, but as Pilot I am pretty much at the end of the 'food chain'. I sometimes get the information together with the press release. Sometimes I know things a little earlier (like the HKG with 748). But us pilots don't get so many detailed information, especially not from other fleets.
But I try as good as I can to provide information.

wilco737
  

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-19 12:42:07 and read 6643 times.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 16):
One more comment here. I am working for LH, but as Pilot I am pretty much at the end of the 'food chain'. I sometimes get the information together with the press release. Sometimes I know things a little earlier (like the HKG with 748). But us pilots don't get so many detailed information, especially not from other fleets.
But I try as good as I can to provide information.

I know   but thought you might know a little bit more then we do when it comes to the 747 fleet  

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-03-19 13:38:28 and read 6491 times.

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 16):
But I try as good as I can to provide information.

And you are doing a very fine job for us when it comes to that!  .

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 7):
Except they are not really the same. Don't have the exact numbers but I seem to remember the latest build A320s are a few %-point more efficient than the originals.

Well, the sharklets alone should 3-5% or so. Let alone all the other improvements the A320 has seen over the years. It will be more then just a couple of percentage points. The last ceo-A320's are all in all quite different from the first built A320 of the late '80's and early '90's. Upgraded avionics, upgraded interiors, upgraded systems, upgraded engines (all in small steps) are making sure that the old A320's LH will be replacing are quite different from the A320-ceo airplanes LH has ordered just this week.  .

[Edited 2013-03-19 13:43:00]

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: N14AZ
Posted 2013-03-19 13:50:25 and read 6450 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
06 777-300ER

I might be completely wrong but my feeling is that this is just the beginning of something. LH is well known for ordering their widebodies in tranches (see the follow-up-order for that two A 380s).

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
02 A380-800

When are these two airframes due for delivery? Would be interesting to know if the "cannibalized" delivery slots of some other airlines (you know who they are...).

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-19 14:01:16 and read 6388 times.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 19):
I might be completely wrong but my feeling is that this is just the beginning of something. LH is well known for ordering their widebodies in tranches (see the follow-up-order for that two A 380s).

Same feeling here. Like I said earlier in the first part of this thread, I believe LH is planning on a widebody fleet of

A330
B777X
747-8I
A380

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-03-19 14:05:28 and read 6371 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 20):
I believe LH is planning on a widebody fleet of

A330
B777X
747-8I
A380

I'd very surprised if LH and its group of airlines completely bypassed the 787/350 generation of aircraft.

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-19 22:45:57 and read 5302 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 21):
I'd very surprised if LH and its group of airlines completely bypassed the 787/350 generation of aircraft.

I am talking LH mainline here. They said the 787 is too small for their needs and they still have very new A330 that won´t go anywhere anytime soon. I also took their recent statement into my consideration that they only want four types of widebody aircraft, so this seems to be the most logical outcome.

A330 not even all delivered and will stay for at least 10 more years
747-8I and A380 will also be an essential part of LH´s fleet for a long time. Sizewise they need something that fills the gap between the A330 and the 747-8I.

Regarding the A330 they will eventually be replaced with the 787 or A350 but not in a near future. LH was also very late when it came on ordering the A330 so that might repeat with them getting the next generation of aircraft.

With the 777X they could replace both the A343 and A346 with one type. The A343 carries more seats than their A333s and has more range, with the 777X they can carry as much passengers as they do now with their A343s but offer a more premium cabin which seems to be the way wants to go now

[Edited 2013-03-19 23:49:59]

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-03-20 01:24:17 and read 4552 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 22):
With the 777X they could replace both the A343 and A346 with one type.

They could, but would they order an airplane now that is at least 7 years away from EIS? We have hardly seen order for future wide-bodies that go beyond that time frame. It was also discussed in the many topics about the "slow selling" A350-1000, but now we see more and more orders coming in for that fantastic airliner. Simply because the concept is clear and the time between ordering it and the expected EIS is now not that long anymore.  .

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-03-20 01:28:08 and read 4519 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 22):
LH was also very late when it came on ordering the A330 so that might repeat with them getting the next generation of aircraft.

And instead ordering the next-to-next generation of aircraft (777X) as soon as it is launched?

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-20 01:42:40 and read 4703 times.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 24):

That does not contradict itself LH has been the launch customer many times. The fact is they have fairly new A330s that won't go anywhere soon. The A343s need replacement and a little later the A346. With the 777X they could easily replace both.

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: SandroZRH
Posted 2013-03-20 02:01:33 and read 4576 times.

I'll give up arguing on the 9 vs. 10 abreast issue. People still don't (want to) understand airline economics, especially in Y. If you don't want to fly in a 10-abreast 777, someone else will. 99% of Y passengers book for price. It's the world we live in, get over it.

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-03-20 02:13:31 and read 4562 times.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 26):
I'll give up arguing on the 9 vs. 10 abreast issue. People still don't (want to) understand airline economics, especially in Y. If you don't want to fly in a 10-abreast 777, someone else will. 99% of Y passengers book for price. It's the world we live in, get over it.

Indeed. I've been on 10-abreast EK 777s as well as 9-abreast BA and AA 777s. With BA, I recently got to fly on an old-style interior 777 on the outbound flight and a recently refurbished 777 on the return one - the difference between new and old interior to me is much more significant than between 9- and 10-abreast.

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: CARST
Posted 2013-03-20 04:20:52 and read 3746 times.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 26):
I'll give up arguing on the 9 vs. 10 abreast issue. People still don't (want to) understand airline economics, especially in Y. If you don't want to fly in a 10-abreast 777, someone else will. 99% of Y passengers book for price. It's the world we live in, get over it.

   Correct, that is why I tell the people Economy Class is not the Economy Class you knew from 20 years ago. Y today is a new class created below the two existing classes F and C/J and the newly created Y+. If you want the Y experience from the 80ies, go and pay the equivalent price you paid in the 80ies to fly Y and book a seat in Y+. If you want to fly Y at current prices accept to get a lower standard of service and less personal space.

LX and the LH Group altogether would be plain stupid to not jump on this train. Four classes of service are the way to go for all major airlines offering a true First Class.

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: Danny
Posted 2013-03-20 04:42:42 and read 3574 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 20):
I believe LH is planning on a widebody fleet of

A330
B777X
747-8I
A380

Or
A350XWB
747-8I
A380

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: columba
Posted 2013-03-20 23:50:42 and read 2030 times.

Jens Flottau, German a reputable aviation journalist with great insight espressed some thoughts about this order in his blog:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.as...aefb95-8be3-4c0b-a988-30dd2bc480f9

Topic: RE: LH Buys 100 A320, 2 A380, 6 77W Part 2
Username: steman
Posted 2013-03-21 01:16:46 and read 1923 times.

Quoting columba (Reply 30):
Jens Flottau, German a reputable aviation journalist with great insight espressed some thoughts about this order in his blog:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.as...aefb95-8be3-4c0b-a988-30dd2bc480f9

With all due respect to Jens Flottau,
he hardly said anything that hasn´t been said here already, nor has he brought more insight into the subject.
He even got the number of 777 operated by OS wrong (It´s 4, not 6).
Furthermore, I do not believe LH is planning to decide how to replace part of the 747-400 fleet (together with the A340s).
With 19 B747-8i and 19 A380 in order or in service, this is clearly already decided.
What I find interesting in Mr. Flottau´s post is the part in which he hints at a possible end of the 747 line if LH goes the 777-9X way.
It is true infact that an airline based in the middle of Europe does not operate ultra long routes and therefore can trade in range for capacity.
A 777-9X with a similar pax/cargo capacity as a 747-8i, will be able to cover most long haul routes ex FRA.
The good thing is that LH is committed to the 747-8i and will take delivery of at least 19 of them which will soldier on for many more years.
At least in Germany we will be spared from boredom for a little while longer

Ciao
Stefano


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