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Topic: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: Unflug
Posted 2013-03-20 02:53:03 and read 16428 times.

All American Airlines A320 will be equipped with the Runway Overrun Protection System introduced in the A380 in 2009.

The patented system will be standard on the A350 and will be available to other manufacturers.

http://www.airbus.com/no_cache/newse...dium=All-news&utm_campaign=RSS

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: liverpoola380
Posted 2013-03-20 03:55:19 and read 16127 times.

Does anybody know if this has ever kicked in with an in service A380 as of yet?

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-03-20 04:04:45 and read 16066 times.

Quoting liverpoola380 (Reply 1):
Does anybody know if this has ever kicked in with an in service A380 as of yet?

It might have on the 2nd of March when the A380 lost its steering at MAN, but im not entirely sure...

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: tropical
Posted 2013-03-20 04:05:36 and read 16067 times.

Quoting liverpoola380 (Reply 1):
Does anybody know if this has ever kicked in with an in service A380 as of yet?


Not exactly what you had asked, but According to the Airbus press release:

"ROPS was first approved by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) on the A380 in October 2009 and to date is currently in service or ordered on around 70 per cent of the A380 fleet."

I'd be interested to know which A380 operators have acquired it...

[Edited 2013-03-20 04:06:44]

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: Unflug
Posted 2013-03-20 05:27:49 and read 15617 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 2):
It might have on the 2nd of March when the A380 lost its steering at MAN, but im not entirely sure...

I don't think that the system would help much if the steering is lost on the ground. The main goal seems to be to help to make the right decisions on approach:

The Airbus-patented ROPS computes minimum realistic in-flight landing and on-ground stopping distances while comparing them to available landing distances in real time. The analyses take into account factors such as runway topography, runway condition, aircraft weight and configuration, wind and temperature. The resulting outcome produces audio callouts and alerts for pilots, making ROPS an awareness tool to assist the crew in the go-around decision making process and also the timely application of retardation/stopping means on touchdown.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: strfyr51
Posted 2013-03-20 05:57:40 and read 15406 times.

Quoting Unflug (Reply 4):

Anybody know what happened to the A380's Steering?? We've had that happen on the A320 with the loss of the 24GA and 25GA nose landing gear sensors. That's a bad thing to happen to an airplane that Big. Seems to me the BSCU's Might have been put on separate channels as backup Fail Safe .

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-03-20 06:18:49 and read 15253 times.

Quoting Unflug (Reply 4):
I don't think that the system would help much if the steering is lost on the ground. The main goal seems to be to help to make the right decisions on approach:

Well, the incident im talking about happened during landing, which is why I thought it was relevant...

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-20 13:06:39 and read 11342 times.

From the Airbus press release: "...and if necessary, provides active protection."

I wonder what this amounts to.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: SYfan100
Posted 2013-03-20 13:42:52 and read 10832 times.

Many runways now including I still think MSP has one where the end of it almost turns to sand if a plane is landing and runs into problems.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I believe this design was to help protect where you don't have a plane leaving the Airport area if it's sliding around.
Now you have something within the Airplane that helps as well in which safety is always the #1 item for everyone because you don't want to conduct a family and tell them the sad news about a death because of a Airplane accident.
Everyday you would prefer whoever no matter if it's a employee or a passenger to get home safely to their respective family even if they are not married.
Most still have a Mom and Dad living besides either a sister or brother in which how would you like to get the news that your son or daughter didn't make it back home to their apartment or house alive because of a accident?
Technology has come along ways in which at the sametime though I take a look at past Airplane accidents or incidents on a runway in which those, have helped with all of us coming along the way as well for understanding more of what happened and what can be prevented? And even what can we just not prevent because mother nature might have the final say?
Look at this as another tool for helping those fly the planes so things are safe.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: AZA330
Posted 2013-03-20 13:54:53 and read 10643 times.

Quoting tropical (Reply 3):
I'd be interested to know which A380 operators have acquired it...

Probably not Emirates... they have enough spare A380s...   

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: max550
Posted 2013-03-20 14:12:04 and read 10417 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 8):
From the Airbus press release: "...and if necessary, provides active protection."

I wonder what this amounts to.

This article gives a really thorough explanation of what the ROPS does, as well as some other pretty amazing features.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/le...he-a380-shows-off-airbus-clev.html


When ROW/ROP gives you those stopping point designators for your top of descent briefing, it assumes you will fly a standard profile at standard reference speeds, crossing the threshold at 50ft and putting the beast down in the touchdown zone. But it still works if you don't do any of those.

If you are high and fast on approach, ROW/ROP knows, and the stopping point designators move away from you down the runway. If you then carry out an extended flare as well, they may move beyond the runway end and, if they do, you will get two warnings: one scripted on the primary flight display saying "runway too short", and a recorded voice saying the same words.

What I tell you now is not strictly relevant, but I was struck by it just the same: the voice that tells you "Runway too short" (or alternatively "If wet, runway too short), is highly compelling because it's different: it's not one of those dead-pan, mid-tone, American-accented voices. It's a male voice, but pitched-up, and with an exquisitely English English accent. Your invisible guardian sounds as if he is looking over your shoulder and is genuinely worried about what he sees.

It would make anyone go-around.

But if you elect not to go around, when you touch down the system gives you absolutely maximum braking for the conditions.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: B6JFKH81
Posted 2013-03-20 16:06:11 and read 9028 times.

Quoting SYfan100 (Reply 9):
Many runways now including I still think MSP has one where the end of it almost turns to sand if a plane is landing and runs into problems.

Yup, Runway Arresting Beds are installed in A LOT of airports now to ensure that the 1000' safety buffer is there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jH8g-qJK3w

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-03-20 16:21:49 and read 8841 times.

It sounds like a good investment. One event like the one in Jamaica where the AA 737 ran off the runway a few years ago will pay for the implementation and training of this system on the fleet.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: web500sjc
Posted 2013-03-20 16:52:24 and read 8478 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):
It sounds like a good investment. One event like the one in Jamaica where the AA 737 ran off the runway a few years ago will pay for the implementation and training of this system on the fleet.

it would have saved at least one SW737 and AF358... an amazing action to allow this safety improving technology to be used by other manufacturers...kudos to airbus.


edited to fix grammer

[Edited 2013-03-20 16:52:51]

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: kanban
Posted 2013-03-20 18:09:43 and read 7569 times.

AS ice, snow, and water accumulations are the most frequently sighted causes, beyond avoiding wildlife intrusions and blown tires, I really wonder how much this will help versus providing a false sense of security.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: 767eng
Posted 2013-03-20 18:19:44 and read 7443 times.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 5):

There's a lot of problems with moisture in the steering sensors on the A380, get a big enough difference between the two resolver outputs and the system fails.

Differential braking is still avail but usually results in needing a tow to stand once stopped.

There are new versions of the sensors but there are still problems with drift.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: fghtngsiouxatc
Posted 2013-03-20 18:29:43 and read 7347 times.

Here's a very interesting Youtube video showing ROPS in action in an A380

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhzwpa99OPw

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-03-20 19:18:45 and read 6788 times.

Quoting kanban (Reply 14):

AS ice, snow, and water accumulations are the most frequently sighted causes, beyond avoiding wildlife intrusions and blown tires, I really wonder how much this will help versus providing a false sense of security.


True that it won't solve all problems, AA is sensitive about overruns. They have had a number of such events with prominent events in flights 331 and 2253. There is a good chance that such a system could have prevented the Jamiaca accident since they touched down with a tailwind well beyond the threshold.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: PassedV1
Posted 2013-03-20 21:10:21 and read 5820 times.

I'm a little skeptical. If the system works (and by works I mean it cannot give you a false warning to 5 - 9's 99.999)then great. If it gives you a bunch of false-warnings (i'm thinking like most Gear warning horns and the RAAS system) it can not only not-make you more safe, it can actually make you less safe. If I ran the FAA for a day I would rip out the RAAS systems of every airliner that currently uses it.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: dynamo12
Posted 2013-03-20 21:42:25 and read 5590 times.

The key thing is really avoiding false alarms. Having worked in another field entirely false alarms are terrible. I've seen folks turn off major safety systems because they couldn't silence a false alarm.

Once checks have been done and the alarm is clearly false, let us at least silence the damn things! Otherwise you get folks pulling breakers on entire systems so they can think.

Especially for situations where the alarm is unlikely to be true, even a low false alarm rate will totally dominate user experience with the system = disaster.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: pvjin
Posted 2013-03-21 00:41:33 and read 4558 times.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 18):
If I ran the FAA for a day I would rip out the RAAS systems of every airliner that currently uses it.

Blah, with same logic we could remove GPWS and all the other warning systems.

I think this is a great system, there have been plenty of overruns simply caused by aircraft touching down too late.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: Unflug
Posted 2013-03-21 01:08:42 and read 4387 times.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 18):
I'm a little skeptical. If the system works (and by works I mean it cannot give you a false warning to 5 - 9's 99.999)then great. If it gives you a bunch of false-warnings (i'm thinking like most Gear warning horns and the RAAS system) it can not only not-make you more safe, it can actually make you less safe.

If a System doesn't work reliably it is of no use, agreed so far. But there seems to be no indication that this is the case. I would assume that we might have heard of it if this system gave bunches of false-alarms resulting in unnecessary go-arounds, especially since the aircraft in question is the A380.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: packsonflight
Posted 2013-03-21 02:06:40 and read 4016 times.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 18):
I'm a little skeptical. If the system works (and by works I mean it cannot give you a false warning to 5 - 9's 99.999)then great. If it gives you a bunch of false-warnings (i'm thinking like most Gear warning horns and the RAAS system) it can not only not-make you more safe, it can actually make you less safe. If I ran the FAA for a day I would rip out the RAAS systems of every airliner that currently uses it.

Sounds a little like early opinions of the TCAS system

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: tropical
Posted 2013-03-21 04:15:23 and read 3576 times.

Quoting max550 (Reply 10):
What I tell you now is not strictly relevant, but I was struck by it just the same: the voice that tells you "Runway too short" (or alternatively "If wet, runway too short), is highly compelling because it's different: it's not one of those dead-pan, mid-tone, American-accented voices. It's a male voice, but pitched-up, and with an exquisitely English English accent. Your invisible guardian sounds as if he is looking over your shoulder and is genuinely worried about what he sees.

It would make anyone go-around.

Airbus should get Brian Blessed to do the voice warnings. That'd get the pilots' attention.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-21 08:48:26 and read 3297 times.

There's an interesting recent thread (can't seem to find it now) regarding extending LHR's runways and allowing take offs and landings simultaneously on the same runway to relieve congestion. A system like this might be important for making such a scheme work.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 20):
I think this is a great system, there have been plenty of overruns simply caused by aircraft touching down too late

  
AB sems to be very proactive at finding solutions to problems.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: Unflug
Posted 2013-03-21 09:24:26 and read 3321 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 24):
There's an interesting recent thread (can't seem to find it now) regarding extending LHR's runways and allowing take offs and landings simultaneously on the same runway to relieve congestion.

This is probably the thread you were thinking of:

Ex Concorde Pilot Proposal To Bust LHR Capacity (by Gonzalo Mar 12 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: PassedV1
Posted 2013-03-21 11:11:12 and read 3150 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 20):
Blah, with same logic we could remove GPWS and all the other warning systems.

I think this is a great system, there have been plenty of overruns simply caused by aircraft touching down too late.

RAAS isn't even giving you real warnings, an analogy I heard is it's like having a jumpseater and everytime you are approaching a runway, or while you are taxing into position, no matter what you are doing at that moment (checklist, trying to listen to the radio, in the middle of reading back a clearence, etc), he starts yelling "APPROACHING RUNWAY 36". I can't tell you how many radio calls I have missed or had to have tower repeat because of the RAAS callouts blocking the tower transmission. RAAS definetly is not enhancing safety in my opinion...or as one Captain I flew it called it..."the FAA Authorized Sterile Cockpit Violator 1000"

EGPWS and TCAS don't have near the false-positive rate the RAAS system has.

Quoting Unflug (Reply 21):
I would assume that we might have heard of it if this system gave bunches of false-alarms resulting in unnecessary go-arounds, especially since the aircraft in question is the A380

Or you have a bunch of pilots already able to filter out the warnings.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: pvjin
Posted 2013-03-21 11:15:44 and read 3144 times.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 26):
EGPWS and TCAS don't have near the false-positive rate the RAAS system has.

Well I would imagine that in the future RAAS will be improved and amount of false positives would reduce. After all it's still very new technology in aviation use and thus probably isn't perfected yet.

I bet RAAS would have been a good thing in all the numerous cases of airliners taking off / landing on wrong runway or even taxiway, some of those events ending up in a disaster like Singapore flight 006.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-03-21 11:32:11 and read 3093 times.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 27):
Well I would imagine that in the future RAAS will be improved and amount of false positives would reduce.

Not when the false positives he's talking about are built into the system. There are certain useful components of RAAS like the alert that goes off if trying to take off from a taxiway, but the constant callouts for approaching a runway, etc. can become nuisance alerts very easily, and as was mentioned they just go off without any recognition of what's going on in the cockpit and what they might be interrupting.

-Mir

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-21 12:36:39 and read 2959 times.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 18):
I would rip out the RAAS systems of every airliner that currently uses it.
Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 26):
RAAS isn't even giving you real warnings
Quoting pvjin (Reply 27):
Well I would imagine that in the future RAAS will be improved and amount of false positives would reduce
Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 26):
EGPWS and TCAS don't have near the false-positive rate the RAAS system has.

I'm confused. Is RAAS only supposed to alert you if you're lining up on the wrong runway (not the one in the FMC) or on a taxiway? If not, then there really are no "false positives" (but still maybe a lot of nuisance chatter).

Quoting Unflug (Reply 25):
This is probably the thread you were thinking of:

Thanks.

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: PassedV1
Posted 2013-03-21 22:34:38 and read 2546 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 29):
I'm confused. Is RAAS only supposed to alert you if you're lining up on the wrong runway (not the one in the FMC) or on a taxiway? If not, then there really are no "false positives" (but still maybe a lot of nuisance chatter).

I mean "false positve" in the sense that a system is squawking at you when nothing is wrong.

Limiting the lineup warning to when it's not the FMC programmed runway I think would be much better behavior. Right now you get a very loud audible warning anytime it senses you are lining up on a runway or anytime you are approaching a runway.


I think a flashing light near the top of the glare shield would be as effective without interfering with checklist and radio traffic.

Quoting Mir (Reply 28):
There are certain useful components of RAAS like the alert that goes off if trying to take off from a taxiway

When FAI was paving their runway a bit ago and planes were operating from the taxiway, it was very difficult to ignore the "ON - TAXIWAY" warning. The same thing happened in BRW when the new runway opened and the database was not updated yet. It doesn't happen right away, you're going 40 knots when it starts yelling at you.

The other heart-stopping situation is when you are on the takeoff roll and have not yet reached 40 knots and you cross a runway intersection.. It doesn't matter if you brief that it's going to happen, that voice makes your heart stop, and it takes a lot of concentration to not perform an abort right then and there.

[Edited 2013-03-21 22:37:26]

Topic: RE: AA A320s Will Use Runway Overrun Protection System
Username: N766UA
Posted 2013-03-22 03:56:19 and read 2323 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 6):
Well, the incident im talking about happened during landing, which is why I thought it was relevant...

But that's not how it works. It's not like once you're overrunning it can stop you, it's just a tool to help you decide whether or not you're going to land with sufficient distance to stop. Once you're down, you're commited, unless you reject the landing.


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