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Topic: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: ManuCH
Posted 2013-03-16 09:53:08 and read 38304 times.

According to a previously unreleased report by French news magazine Le Point, the Captain of flight AF 447 that plunged into the Atlantic while enroute between GIG and CDG, had only had 1 hour of sleep on the night before the flight.

Quote:

A new report reveals that Marc Debois, captain of the doomed AF447, wasn’t functioning at his finest during his June 2009 flight from Rio de Janiero in Brazil to Paris, France. According to a previously undisclosed report obtained by the French news magazine Le Point, the 58-year-old Dubois can be heard on a black box recording saying, “I didn’t sleep enough last night. One hour--it’s not enough.”

(...)

Dubois began complaining about being tired shortly after take off. His co-pilots, 32-year-old Pierre-Cedric Bonin and 37-year-old David Robert, weren’t doing much better. According to the report, they were also feeling groggy after spending the night in Rio with their wives and girlfriends.

Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...our-sleep-report-article-1.1289998
Original article in French: http://www.lepoint.fr/societe/crash-...e-cachee-15-03-2013-1640312_23.php

This is an alarming twist of facts. While it's known that pilots sometimes have a hard time sleeping because of jet lag, spending the night in a city (essentially, partying) is certainly not an acceptable reason to be tired.

Some also ask for the full CVR recordings to be released:

Quote:

More puzzlement as to how an Air France A330-200 could have been belly flopped into the mid-Atlantic in 2009 should add pressure on the French air safety investigator, the BEA, to release the full recording of the conversations in the cockpit of the doomed jet.

What was said in cockpit, and what it reveals about the relationship between the three pilots present during the fatal plunge that killed all 228 people on board the flight between Rio and Paris is an increasingly obvious missing element in resolving the mystery.

Source: http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...-af447-tapes-must-be-released-now/

Of course pilots are trained to be fit to fly. But if it's true that sleeping is taken so lightly by some crew, I wonder what could be done to increase safety. Pilots are only humans after all, but still highly trained professionals, so one would expect them to behave accordingly.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airbuster
Posted 2013-03-16 10:15:12 and read 38239 times.

Have you done long haul flying for a couple of years week in week out? It messes you up. The article doesn't state that they had been partying. Moreso the flight departed at 7 pm. To me that means that the captains comment about 1 hour of sleep may refer to a pre departure afternoon nap instead of the previous night. In that case it's very normal to have 1 hour of sleep before an evening departure.

If they had been partying and were dead tired then yes that may have aggravated the whole situation. And bad on them.

I do however think that they were just tired like every long haul crew is and this is sensualistic information.

You say that pilots are trained to be fit to fly, really? It's more like pilots are TOLD to be fit to fly. The only thing that would give you fit pilots on every flight is to change airline schedules and give them more layover- and leave time, that is no reality in today's economy.

May they rest in peace.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: ManuCH
Posted 2013-03-16 10:32:06 and read 37980 times.

Quoting airbuster (Reply 1):
I do however think that they were just tired like every long haul crew is and this is sensualistic information.

I surely hopes it turns out to be just that.

Quoting airbuster (Reply 1):
You say that pilots are trained to be fit to fly, really? It's more like pilots are TOLD to be fit to fly.

I stand corrected, I used the wrong word. But now I'm curious: what happens if a pilot calls the company and says he doesn't feel fit to fly, because of lack of sleep? Are there any consequences? This would surely mess up scheduling if an AF pilot does so while in GIG. Do pilots avoid admitting their lack of sleep to prevent a scheduling chaos and a huge delay? Where does one draw the line?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Independence76
Posted 2013-03-16 11:49:36 and read 37469 times.

Would this have dramatically changed the ability to provide instruction towards the First Officer(s) in control? He was in the crew bunk for 9 minutes before he was called down urgently. One would think after only 1 hour of sleep that going back to bed in the night would put him to sleep rather quickly.

Being called down only a few minutes later means it was likely he was even more tired than before. Not what you want to have in a non-normal critical situation.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-16 12:25:27 and read 37218 times.

The above post is a surprising third level opinion on an already very subjective report by "experts" to the judicial system.
1/ - One has to know - and it deserves repeating - that for every accident, a judge is in charge of the investigation, of which the BEA report is just one piece.
2/- Judicial experts are then appointed by the judge to comment / complete / criticize the oficial BEA report. Among these experts are AF current or ex pilots.
3/- The possibility of fatigue is always considered in these reports, especially when the official BEA report remained silent on the subject.
4/- The departure was at 22.00 Z, which is 18.00 local.
5/- For AF crews, Rio is not exactly the safest place to go "partying" ; They've seen too many aggressions and muggings to really go out on the town at night.
So.
We have a subjective reporting of the experts on things like "lack of dynamism in the ETOPS preparation", and the taking as fact the captain's complaint that he didn't sleep more than an hour. That reporting is then further subjectively exploited be a weekly magazine, putting it together with the main pilot union pointing at crew fatigue on long haul duties, occulting the fact that these were in no respect related.
Then a NYC newspaper goes on by saying :"they were also feeling groggy after spending the night in Rio with their wives and girlfriends."
The report only mentions that a wife and a companion were in Rio with these pilots. The other part of the report mentions only as a possible factor :"4.3 Maximum fatigue in the low phase of the circadian cycle"
The 19.00 L departure means that the crew had to take some rest during daylight hours. The problem is that the rest quality during these hours is low.
And then you add your own comments on these "facts". Are you really so sure that these aircrews could be just a bunch of jolly party goers totally lacking professionalism ?
And do you have the witnesses who could testify on these nocturnal activities by this crew ? At least even the report,and the newspapers haven't.

[Edited 2013-03-16 12:32:29]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-16 12:40:20 and read 37098 times.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 2):
what happens if a pilot calls the company and says he doesn't feel fit to fly, because of lack of sleep? Are there any consequences? This would surely mess up scheduling if an AF pilot does so while in GIG. Do pilots avoid admitting their lack of sleep to prevent a scheduling chaos and a huge delay? Where does one draw the line?

I can answer that very quickly : It happened to me in Guadeloupe. Too tired to fly. OPS was advised, the flight was delayed 7 hours, to allow another pilot present to have his minimum rest... I took over his scheduled flight some 24 hours later. Our regulations are that a pîlot is sole responsible for estimating his physical / mental capacity to operate as a crew member.
I was given 10 days of rest by the airline medical department, and had to do a check-up before I resumed my duties.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2013-03-16 13:08:57 and read 36841 times.

It is possible that the pilots may not have gotten a good quality of sleep or nap within the previous 24 hours, the pilot commenting may have meant they only got 1 true hour of deep sleep. Still, I am quite sure other airline's flights in what is a higher risk region may have had similar sleep cycle issues but they didn't go down.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-16 13:42:39 and read 36635 times.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 6):
I am quite sure other airline's flights in what is a higher risk region may have had similar sleep cycle issues but they didn't go down.

And your point is ?... Especially when the official report doesn't even acknowledge a possible fatigue as a factor of the accident ?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-16 13:52:06 and read 36530 times.

The fact that the final report by the BEA only selectively quotes from the CVR and has omitted a reference to fatigue implies that it is protecting the airline.

It also removes from the scope of the report a critical safety issue that Annex 13 ICAO requires crash reports to address, which is the safety lessons to be learned, which would include fatigue risk and management.

As the author of the blog quoted early in this thread can I make the point that unless we know everything there is to know from the CVR as to what happened between the men in the cockpit we cannot truly known what it is that happened to the machine.

This should not in my opinion be an issue as to sensationalist reporting or otherwise.

This is about the omission of vital information from a final report into a major crash, and omission will always, quite rightly, lead to suspicion.

The full tapes must be released. In the interests of safety.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-16 14:15:05 and read 36047 times.

Problem is I do not for one second trust alleged objectivity from third parties.
The whole damn loty is just about someone saying that he didn't sleep for more than one hour ( how many times have you heard such exaggeration ? ) and some very dubious interpretations from some people who listened to the tape as to the "dynamism " of the crew - or lack thereof - during a briefing on ETOPS available airports.
There is nothing else and your conspiracy theories are just that : Theories.
Ah ! Sensationalism !
I stand with the BEA and all the other organisms which participated in this investigation. And our CVR recordings are not for the ghouls who would seek some sick pleasure in listening to the last words of dead people.
Go look somewhere else, I'd say to them.
There will be a court phase and experts from all sides will be discussing this aspect. They will make references to the tapes, but the transcript is not for public use.
We pilots will not allow it.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2013-03-16 14:45:51 and read 35290 times.

Quoting airbuster (Reply 1):
To me that means that the captains comment about 1 hour of sleep may refer to a pre departure afternoon nap instead of the previous night. In that case it's very normal to have 1 hour of sleep before an evening departure.

You are editorializing. As quoted by the OP and confirmed in the French article he links to, the captain states "last night I didn't sleep enough." Even at 7 pm, "last night" is the only correct translation, not earlier this afternoon or another variation, there is simply no wiggle room for interpretation there.

This assumes the report is correct, however. Hard to know for a fact since only selected sections of the CVR were ever released, and yet in this particular case, the claim from the magazine should be easy to refute because the French article states, down to the second, at what time the captain is allegedly heard making this comment (010419).

Finally, the French magazine that this report comes from may not be Le Monde, but it isn't in the habit of finding Elvis alive in a Caribbean island or another every other month either. I would take this report very seriously, barring any evidence contradicting it, evidence that, as explained above, would be very easy to provide.

As the trial nears, I would think we would eventually get a full version of the CVR released. In light of this article, if it doesn't happen, allegations, and suspicions, of a cover-up will only increase.

[Edited 2013-03-16 15:23:46]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: dfambro
Posted 2013-03-16 14:55:40 and read 35063 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 8):
The full tapes must be released.

There should be no presumption of privacy during operation of a public transport.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-16 15:13:37 and read 34617 times.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 10):
In light of this article, if it doesn't happen, allegations, and suspicions, of a cover-up will only increase

You forget the court case. That point will be discussed at length. The tape will not be made public.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 11):
There should be no presumption of privacy during operation of a public transport.

Fortunately I live in France and privacy is very much protected. By law.
Again, the pilot unions will not allow it, and the law is, on this subject, on our side.

For the poster who claims that it is required for safety reasons, we, pilot unions of all countries through IFALPA have acted and are still acting a lot more on fatigue and rest than anybody else, be they bloggers or just thrill seekers. The studies made on these subjects are quite wide ranging and involve a lot more specialised knowledge than you'd think : aeronautical physicians, sleep specialists, psychologists and airline pilots, some of them being also physicians.
So your argument is, I'm afraid, moot.

[Edited 2013-03-16 15:14:38]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-03-16 15:21:12 and read 34384 times.

Quoting airbuster (Reply 1):
You say that pilots are trained to be fit to fly, really? It's more like pilots are TOLD to be fit to fly. The only thing that would give you fit pilots on every flight is to change airline schedules and give them more layover- and leave time, that is no reality in today's economy.

Thanks for this sentence, actually the only one that does make any sense here.

Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):

I'm quiet surprised that, considering the fact that such a PR (whatever the source is) is objectively a regular bashing against a dead crew, with all the sensationalism needed to have it published even on A.net, you, as a "moderator" would spread it without any other form of concern towards all the victims.

Now just a small light on the investigations made by French BEA:

You all aviation fans from A.net and others, should know that every AF447 investigations made by the BEA and DGAC, have been biased by an industrial pressure, leading to an incredible and amazing denigration campaign against an air crew, we haven't seen since the A320 accident in Habsheim. The climax of it all occurred when a CVR strip, showing pilots conversation seconds before crash, bleeded illegally into the medias.
While everyone is arguing about what a good pilot should do, must do, should have done this night, etc... The true question should be; why is it so? Why such an important piece of investigation is now publicly revealed?
How come an institution of this importance like BEA made such a mistake?
The result? There's been a terrible buzz around the fact that, if the AF447 pilots were completely panicked on the last moments of the flight, maybe the crash was their own and very fault...!

So reading to this (stupid) story, I'm fearing the same thing is happening as when the CVR extract was (illegally) revealed.

No I'll stop here, knowing that as soon as I can change my A320 type rating for anything-else-but-an-Airbus type rating, I'll go for it.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-03-16 15:25:58 and read 34295 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 12):
Fortunately I live in France and privacy is very much protected. By law.
Again, the pilot unions will not allow it, and the law is, on this subject, on our side.

Won't they? They already did, actually.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: WingedMigrator
Posted 2013-03-16 15:26:39 and read 34246 times.

Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
an increasingly obvious missing element in resolving the mystery.

Excuse me, what mystery?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-16 15:30:25 and read 34146 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 12):
Again, the pilot unions will not allow it, and the law is, on this subject, on our side.

Why won't the union allow it? Certainly every Part 121 pilot in the United States at least accepts it.

It seems to me that the answer to the question is "E.U. privacy law provides a shield that, here, shields incompetence."

Pilots should be publicly accountable when they do something wrong, no different from professionals in any other industry (though perhaps the public has a heightened right to know with pilots since they are employees of a common carrier).

Quoting Pihero (Reply 12):
For the poster who claims that it is required for safety reasons, we, pilot unions of all countries through IFALPA have acted and are still acting a lot more on fatigue and rest than anybody else, be they bloggers or just thrill seekers.

The issue is one of government accountability, not of fatigue.

Sometimes, all government investigative agencies (BEA, NTSB, AAIB, etc.) make mistakes. The more information is public, the better that interested parties can evaluate their work.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2013-03-16 16:02:19 and read 33452 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 12):
Fortunately I live in France and privacy is very much protected. By law.

I would be the first one to argue that most countries should do better to protect the privacy of their citizens, but I would also say that the right to privacy is not and should never be absolute. If someone enters in a profession where their behavior outside normal working hours can and does have consequences, sometimes fatal, on their performance during working hours and members of the public, they need to accept that, at some point in their career, their right to privacy may have to come second to the right to know, whether that professional is a doctor, a pilot or a plant operator.

That doesn't mean I have the right to know what a pilot does on every layover, but on a layover preceding a fatal accident that he didn't survive to explain himself, it does.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: ManuCH
Posted 2013-03-16 16:02:32 and read 33454 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 4):
And then you add your own comments on these "facts". Are you really so sure that these aircrews could be just a bunch of jolly party goers totally lacking professionalism ?
And do you have the witnesses who could testify on these nocturnal activities by this crew ?

Of course not. I have quoted what I've found. This has been some major news here and a lot of media have talked about it, so I thought it was worth a discussion on A.net. That's what forums are about after all.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
I can answer that very quickly : It happened to me in Guadeloupe. Too tired to fly.

Thank you.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 13):
I'm quiet surprised that, considering the fact that such a PR (whatever the source is) is objectively a regular bashing against a dead crew, with all the sensationalism needed to have it published even on A.net, you, as a "moderator" would spread it without any other form of concern towards all the victims.

I don't consider that source to be particularly unreliable in general. It's an online news site like many others that may be quoted as sources. As I said, it is something that is making the news, and is causing quite some noise. Why not discuss it on A.net? Again, that's what forums are about. There are some very skilled professionals in here and I was sure that some would have shed some light on the matter, and debunk/discuss/whatever there is to say on that article.

Everyone, there's no need to get so upset here. It's a discussion, and you are all free to bring your arguments. I don't think it's a taboo to speculate, even if there's a final report already.

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 15):

Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
an increasingly obvious missing element in resolving the mystery.

Excuse me, what mystery?

Not my quote - ask the person who wrote the article/blog.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 12):
Fortunately I live in France and privacy is very much protected. By law.
Again, the pilot unions will not allow it, and the law is, on this subject, on our side.

What is the objective reason why the pilot unions are against making the CVR transcripts publicly available? Couldn't it provide interesting information to improve safety?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-16 16:11:49 and read 33259 times.

This is not a witch hunt concerning the pilots, as I have repeatedly emphasized elsewhere not as a matter of opinion, but as a matter of law and convention, and in close consultation with sources competent to speak about such matters as well as experienced Airbus pilots among my contacts in the US, in France and in Australia.

The airline is responsible for the performance of its pilots. It is responsible for providing the pilots with a safe work place, and with the appropriate SOPS and fatigue risk management.

What happened to AF447 is the responsibility of Air France. Why it happened is of critical importance to air safety, and the whole purpose of crash investigations is not to blame but to learn and apply, and we cannot learn and apply the lessons of AF447 unless we know everything that happened in the cockpit.

The pilots seem needlessly defensive considering the questions that arise as to how they were managed by the company.

One of the first things A330 pilots did to me in relation to this report was show me what the captain would have seen standing at the back of the cockpit. He would have seen the position of the side stick controllers, including the one the PF kept for almost the entire duration of the crash sequence in the fully back position.

This makes his engagement in resolving the control crisis very important. The disclosure of fatigue is a critical element of this, and one needs to ask, why would the BEA exclude this?

I would urge everyone reading the final report whether in English or French to do what my panel of contacts required me to do, which is print it out, then go through it with a marker pen separating what is a narrative as to what the BEA thinks happened and what the BEA found happened.

The structure of this report is intriguing, in that it includes very early a narrative that sets up the situation in which the less experienced of the two first officers is designated by the captain as the PF, something not discovered by the other first officer until he returned to the flight deck.

The report makes an important point about the way in which the hand over was, or in this case, wasn't fully conducted.

In its guidance post the accident and at about the time an AF panel of review that made confidential recommendations to the company AF did make it clear that new instructions had been issued as to how hand overs were to conducted.

What is intriguing, among many things, in this BEA report, is that it opens certain issues in the narrative but them doesn't close them. How the pilots interacted with each other is of crucial importance.

We cannot get to the truth without knowing what they actually said and did during every second of the crash sequence.

The responsibility for what they did is borne by Air France, not by the pilots. By international convention.

This accident is yet another illustration of the limitations of blogs like mine and the media in general.

Serious study of original material, diligent pursuit of experienced opinion, and refresher reading of the ICAO guidlines for accident reports, all consume an immense amount of time.

Yet we live in a world where it all has to be reduced to a few hundred words or dot points.

My plea to readers of stories about such topics, is NOT to rely on journalists for anything more than signals as to where interesting and hopefully important things may be found. The idea is to start a discussion, and at times, a demand for action. But not to provide shortcuts to answers.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: CX Flyboy
Posted 2013-03-16 16:37:00 and read 32716 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
Our regulations are that a pîlot is sole responsible for estimating his physical / mental capacity to operate as a crew member.
I was given 10 days of rest by the airline medical department, and had to do a check-up before I resumed my duties.

In many airlines an event like this more than once in your career will cause the airline to ground you and recommend that you see therapists for sleep etc... Pure intimidation and the fact is that I would say most airline pilots would continue to work even if they felt exhausted just prior to the flight.

The fact is, longhaul flying is tiring. Many people cannot sleep on demand and if a flight leaves late evening, it would mean waking up for that flight 3-4 hours prior which means that in order to have a good nap prior to the flight, you ned to get into bed and fall asleep by say 4pm....something which is not easy to do. Pilots are humans too and chances are that when you are in the cabin, tired and uncomfortable and unable to sleep in the middle of the night, the pilots could be feeling the same way at the controls. Its just a fact. This is somewhat mitigated by some airlines that have pilots from mixed crew bases, so that on longhaul flights, two crew are tired and sleeping, and two crew are wide awake. Works well but isn't too common in this industry.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-16 16:46:56 and read 32507 times.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 18):
What is the objective reason why the pilot unions are against making the CVR transcripts publicly available? Couldn't it provide interesting information to improve safety?

Aviation authorities, using results of official investigations, are responsible for recommending/authorizing/mandating safety improvements, not the public. The investigators will use the original recordings as their primary source, not transcripts, and there is no justifiable reason for the original recordings to be made available to the public.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-16 16:50:23 and read 32429 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 19):
we cannot learn and apply the lessons of AF447 unless we know everything that happened in the cockpit.

Really? Everything? You seek perfection in an imperfect world.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-16 17:01:28 and read 32216 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 21):
The investigators will use the original recordings as their primary source, not transcripts, and there is no justifiable reason for the original recordings to be made available to the public.

Of course, his question was about transcripts. I can't speak for the European authorities, but I have never known of a transcription issue with the NTSB.

Quoting hivue (Reply 21):
Aviation authorities, using results of official investigations, are responsible for recommending/authorizing/mandating safety improvements, not the public.

By virtue of being governmental bodies, aviation authorities are--or should be--accountable to the public.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-16 17:16:53 and read 31895 times.

Hivue,

The BEA report is supposed to be about safety lessons learned and applied.

The public prosecutor will pursue matters of blame, and punishment, if it goes that far.

Let's step back and consider this as a matter of strategy. If the pilots want to ensure that blame is placed on the systemic issues in the work place that contributed to this tragedy and if they want to have decisive action taken to reform their work place to make it a safer, better equipped workplace, they have I would suggest, very good reason to accept full disclosure in their best interests.

Or, they can join with the company perhaps in wishing to keep it all confidential.

It is also worth keeping in mind the obvious signs in the media in Europe that the full transcript is ready to burst out into the open whether some parties like it or not.

It might therefore be smart to reconsider blanket opposition to full disclosure, and think about the benefits pilots should pursue when it does come out.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: dfambro
Posted 2013-03-16 17:27:26 and read 32093 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 21):
Aviation authorities, using results of official investigations, are responsible for recommending/authorizing/mandating safety improvements, not the public. The investigators will use the original recordings as their primary source, not transcripts, and there is no justifiable reason for the original recordings to be made available to the public.

There are plenty of people who have a professional interest in aviation safety issues who should have access, including researchers in academia and professionals at other airlines. There should be a mechanism for access. And for everyone and anyone the transcripts should be available because

Quoting dfambro (Reply 11):
There should be no presumption of privacy during operation of a public transport.

That's an inherent principle in an open society. When it's not adhered to, the result it predictable: distrust.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-16 17:42:38 and read 32000 times.

First of all, I am for knowing, ands revealing the truth in accident investigatioin.
I for one believe in the institutions of my country, be they official investigations bureaux or the judicial system.
Otherwise, I might as well join the ranks of the anarchists.
That claim of mine above also means that as much as I can I shall work in the improvement of the said institutions, as all responsible citizens should do... and so far, that has been my aim and some not unimportant part of my activities.

The truth shall come out of the court phase ; it will be probably still partial as they will concentrate on responsibilities and financial reparations... But we shall know at the very least what were the influences of every factor that led to the accident, and fatigue may well be one. And we do not need to make public the transcript, or some would love to, full disclosure of the recording. The court, the attorneys and the experts will have that knowledge and that is enough.
I'vea lready seen enough imbeciles crowing on the revealed tapes in which someone cried his love for his mother. To me, that's sick and we will not allow it, whatever the self-righteous claims for reasons of improved safety... blah blah blah are. Just hypocrisy.
The problem is that this thread, and the sensationalism it leads to are based on some very dodgy circumstancial evidence : one sentence from a captain and some really far-fetched interpretations on how the crew was working prior to the accident. How in hell do you know they were tired just because you "felt", "had the impression", "surmised"...etc... that they were acting outside the routine of a so far uneventful flight ?

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 19):
The disclosure of fatigue is a critical element of this, and one needs to ask, why would the BEA exclude this?

Because, contrarily to what you think, the BEA was very thorough in interrogating the crews who stayed in the same hotel and discovered nothing untoward about their behaviour, nothing out of the ordinary for people who took their wives and companions on a trip to do some touring of Rio.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 19):
The structure of this report is intriguing, in that it includes very early a narrative that sets up the situation in which the less experienced of the two first officers is designated by the captain as the PF, something not discovered by the other first officer until he returned to the flight deck.

How do you know that ? The procedure is that the PF, if one of the FOs would remain in charge by virtue of having the knowledge of the flight, one coming this late would not have. There was no command or hierarchy structure in a flight deck composed of two FOs. The captain is just three meters away. ( this was partly corrected by the airline later)

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 19):
We cannot get to the truth without knowing what they actually said and did during every second of the crash sequence.

That part, from the beginning of the ECAM messages to the end of recording is complete.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 19):
What is intriguing, among many things, in this BEA report, is that it opens certain issues in the narrative but them doesn't close them. How the pilots interacted with each other is of crucial importance.

So, in fact, having the whole transcript from the handover to the final moments wasn't enough, right ? Makes quite a dent on your argument, doesn't it ?
By the way, I would really love to hear what would have been , in your opinion a proper hand-over briefing.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 20):
In many airlines an event like this more than once in your career will cause the airline to ground you and recommend that you see therapists for sleep

People usually do not make a habit of it. The contract I signed stipulates : nobody else but me can decide on my physical ability to start a flight duty and I took my responsibility. It has happened to other pilots, with the same conclusion.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 20):
get into bed and fall asleep by say 4pm....something which is not easy to do. Pilots are humans too

Yes, you're right and I know it. That's the discipline the job requires. Minimum rest in Japan is hell... The worst... and a three day layover there is even worse : One can't get one's circadian rythm is such a short time, but one's body is already engaged in the correction of the jet lag.

Quoting hivue (Reply 21):
Aviation authorities, using results of official investigations, are responsible for recommending/authorizing/mandating safety improvements, not the public. The investigators will use the original recordings as their primary source, not transcripts, and there is no justifiable reason for the original recordings to be made available to the public.

Thank you. I can't agree more.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-16 17:44:18 and read 32117 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
Of course, his question was about transcripts

Yes, I understood that. But the point he was making was that transcripts in the hands of the public lead to imporved safety. I can think of no instance where that has been the case.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
I have never known of a transcription issue with the NTSB.

Nor have I. And NTSB transcripts routinely are redacted of (what the NTSB thinks is) irrelevant information (e.g., profanities, mention of names unrelated to the accident, etc.). I'm not sure I've ever seen a non-redacted one. The NTSB includes transcripts in their reports for the sake of complete documentation, not because some new information will be unearthed by readers.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-03-16 17:44:52 and read 32175 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
though perhaps the public has a heightened right to know with pilots since they are employees of a common carrier

The public does not have a right to know. The public has a right to safe travel and competent oversight, but that does not mean they get to make the calls on safety and judge when an error that affects the flight gets made and when it doesn't, or convict someone in the court of public opinion.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 18):
What is the objective reason why the pilot unions are against making the CVR transcripts publicly available? Couldn't it provide interesting information to improve safety?

It could, to those who know how to interpret those transcripts. To others, it could lead to baseless accusations, lawsuits, and embarrassment for the families of the crews.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 20):
In many airlines an event like this more than once in your career will cause the airline to ground you and recommend that you see therapists for sleep etc... Pure intimidation and the fact is that I would say most airline pilots would continue to work even if they felt exhausted just prior to the flight.

And it only takes working at one airline like that to make an impact your whole career. If this guy worked at an airline where the fatigue policy doesn't match what the company manual says it is, I'd expect him to be very reluctant to call in fatigued at every airline he works for after that, even if they do have a very good fatigue policy (as AF does, if Pihero's story is correct - I have no doubt it is).

-Mir

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-16 18:07:38 and read 31771 times.

I think we are losing track of the fact that a trained, professional crew flew the airplane out of its envelope and into a high altitude stall and never understood it. Even a fatigued crew should not have done that (someone mentioned a "mystery" earlier; I think at this point this is the only mystery). If the pilots on the flight deck actually were "groggy," I imagine that would have (and should have) disappeared rather quickly when the AP and A/THR packed it in.

There seems to be the traditional "the public has a right to know" attitude here. But when the subject is as technical as this the public (or the vast majority of it) actually knows very little. They are not trained for it and have very little interest in the details.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-16 18:09:43 and read 31833 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 24):
The BEA report is supposed to be about safety lessons learned and applied.

The public prosecutor will pursue matters of blame, and punishment, if it goes that far.

Let's step back and consider this as a matter of strategy. If the pilots want to ensure that blame is placed on the systemic issues in the work place that contributed to this tragedy and if they want to have decisive action taken to reform their work place to make it a safer, better equipped workplace, they have I would suggest, very good reason to accept full disclosure in their best interests.

I shall quote the conclusions of the BEA report ( English version )
..............
Thus, the accident resulted from the following succession of events:
ˆ Temporary inconsistency between the airspeed measurements, likely following
the obstruction of the Pitot probes by ice crystals that, in particular, caused the
autopilot disconnection and the reconfiguration to alternate law;
ˆ Inappropriate control inputs that destabilized the flight path;
ˆ The lack of any link by the crew between the loss of indicated speeds called out
and the appropriate procedure;
ˆ The late identification by the PNF of the deviation from the flight path and the
insufficient correction applied by the PF;
ˆ The crew not identifying the approach to stall, their lack of immediate response
and the exit from the flight envelope;
ˆ The crew’s failure to diagnose the stall situation and consequently a lack of inputs
that would have made it possible to recover from it.
These events can be explained by a combination of the following factors:
ˆ The feedback mechanisms on the part of all those involved that made it impossible:
y To identify the repeated non-application of the loss of airspeed information
procedure and to remedy this,
y To ensure that the risk model for crews in cruise included icing of the Pitot
probes and its consequences;F-GZCP - 1st June 2009
201
ˆ The absence of any training, at high altitude, in manual aeroplane handling and
in the procedure for ”Vol avec IAS douteuse”;
ˆ Task-sharing that was weakened by:
y Incomprehension of the situation when the autopilot disconnection occurred,
y Poor management of the startle effect that generated a highly charged
emotional factor for the two copilots;
ˆ The lack of a clear display in the cockpit of the airspeed inconsistencies identified
by the computers;
ˆ The crew not taking into account the stall warning, which could have been due to:
y A failure to identify the aural warning, due to low exposure time in training to
stall phenomena, stall warnings and buffet,
y The appearance at the beginning of the event of transient warnings that could
be considered as spurious,
y The absence of any visual information to confirm the approach-to-stall after
the loss of the limit speeds,
y The possible confusion with an overspeed situation in which buffet is also
considered as a symptom,
y Flight Director indications that may led the crew to believe that their actions
were appropriate, even though they were not,
y The difficulty in recognizing and understanding the implications of a
reconfiguration in alternate law with no angle of attack protection...

...............

Where iis the conspiracy ? the report puts the blame ( it doesn't but it is very clear ) squarely on the flight deck crew, on theitr training and some ergonomics aspects of the alarm messages , aural warnings... etc...

So your following sentence :

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 24):
Or, they can join with the company perhaps in wishing to keep it all confidential.

Shall I remind you that without the airline insistence and expenses in pursuing the search, we wouldn't have a clue on why this accident happened and more to the point we wouldn't even talk about recording that would have been left at the bottom of the ocean.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-16 18:27:58 and read 31474 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 28):
The public does not have a right to know. The public has a right to safe travel and competent oversight, but that does not mean they get to make the calls on safety and judge when an error that affects the flight gets made and when it doesn't, or convict someone in the court of public opinion.

Thank you, Mir. I couldn't have written it better.

Quoting Mir (Reply 28):
Quoting ManuCH (Reply 18):
What is the objective reason why the pilot unions are against making the CVR transcripts publicly available? Couldn't it provide interesting information to improve safety?

It could, to those who know how to interpret those transcripts. To others, it could lead to baseless accusations, lawsuits, and embarrassment for the families of the crews.

That has happened, and still does, which makes me hopping mad.

Respect is due.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 25):
There should be no presumption of privacy during operation of a public transport.

That's an inherent principle in an open society. When it's not adhered to, the result it predictable: distrust.

You're either wrong or you have a selected memory : Whatever the facts, the proofs (even scientific ), the arguments are, there will always be a good part of the population who will believe in a conspiracy theory. See the web for thousands of examples... and unfortunately, this is one.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-16 18:36:23 and read 31186 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 26):
I for one believe in the institutions of my country, be they official investigations bureaux or the judicial system.
Otherwise, I might as well join the ranks of the anarchists.

Not so, and it's not correct that there has to be a conspiracy, as you later posited, either. We have to recognize two things:

1) Governments are made up of people, and people make mistakes. That's why all civilized societies have institutions like appellate courts. Judges, though a creation of the government, make mistakes.

2) Sometimes, there's not a mistake but a group of educated people outside the government can come to different (and maybe even better) conclusions that a similar group of people within the government. No government is omniscient.

Quoting hivue (Reply 27):
And NTSB transcripts routinely are redacted of (what the NTSB thinks is) irrelevant information (e.g., profanities, mention of names unrelated to the accident, etc.). I'm not sure I've ever seen a non-redacted one.

Can you point to a single redaction that you contend is inappropriate?

Quoting hivue (Reply 27):
But the point he was making was that transcripts in the hands of the public lead to imporved safety. I can think of no instance where that has been the case.

How would you prove it one way or the other? Sunshine laws don't tend to be something that has a lot of empirical support, partially because we take it for granted. And it's worth nothing that AF--which apparently operates in a country with a lot of secrecy surrounding aviation safety--has a pretty chequered safety record. Correlation obviously doesn't prove causation, but it's an interesting question. I believe AF is the only western carrier with multiple widebody hull losses in the past decade.

Quoting Mir (Reply 28):
The public does not have a right to know. The public has a right to safe travel and competent oversight, but that does not mean they get to make the calls on safety and judge when an error that affects the flight gets made and when it doesn't, or convict someone in the court of public opinion.

You and I both hold positions that require a license issued by the government. Those licenses are privileges. As a result, at least in the States, it's pretty well settled that the public has a near-absolute right to know about conduct that falls below a certain threshold.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-16 18:48:19 and read 31001 times.

I think that had common sense and decency been applied to the question of the disclosure of the full CVR transcript we would not be having this discussion.

The inclusion of the fatigue element would have radically changed the aftermath of such a report to one in which very fatigued pilots were unable to cope with a situation which as the report points out, had been dealt with but without disaster by various other crews on A330 flights that experienced blocked pitots or episodes of unreliable speed data.

It is reasonable to think that the interests of pilots and those who fly would also have been improved by an open discussion and consideration of fatigue in pilots, as well as the important discussion it has already caused, which is over reliance on automation, which is a discussion that goes to airline attitudes to automation, upset recovery training and the training of pilots in an age of significant systems changes in modern airliners of any marque.

There are sensitive personal moments that are recorded on CVRs in tragic circumstances. They ought never be disclosed. They are distressing. They can be identified as (exclamation) or (personal). But we do need to know what happened between the men in relation to the machine to know what happened to the machine.

And neither in France, nor Australia, do we live in societies where we should ever fully trust secret deliberations or 'assertions' made in public after private deliberations, to produce fair, truthful and above all safe outcomes.

The use of public hearings by the NTSB is I believe, a net positive for air safety.

Those in Australia may know that I'm involved in a campaign to overturn the final ATSB report into the Pel-Air crash near Norfolk Island in 2009. That was, I contend, a report that was grossly unfair to the pilot concerned, and to the public, and an abuse of due legal process, and the evidence in support of this has been produced and tabled before a special Senate committee inquiry, which means that the media can now reveal matters previously kept invisible to the public in internal audits and emails, and are now reportable without risk of legal sanctions under the protection of parliamentary privilege.

Pel-Air is nothing like AF447, other than questions of transparency in public administration. There will be more developments in that cause shortly.

[Edited 2013-03-16 18:53:16]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BC77008
Posted 2013-03-16 19:02:44 and read 30834 times.

Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
But if it's true that sleeping is taken so lightly by some crew

It's usually taken very lightly by an airline's crew scheduling department.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-16 19:18:48 and read 30599 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
And it's worth nothing that AF--which apparently operates in a country with a lot of secrecy surrounding aviation safety--has a pretty chequered safety record. Correlation obviously doesn't prove causation, but it's an interesting question. I believe AF is the only western carrier with multiple widebody hull losses in the past decade.

Interesting. So you're just illustrating what I said above : without proof, a conspiracy theory on "secrecy".
Prove it.
It may well be the case that we've seen multiple hull losses in the past decade.
But why don't you mention that some US airlines have seen a series of such, in the not very distant past.
Taking your decade as a measure, didn't AA lose in the span of six years ( 1995-2001) one A300, two 757s and one 767, claiming the lives of 585 passengers and some 1800 people on the ground ? And didn't UAL see the loss of 1DC10, one 767 and one 757 in the span of 11 years ?
And as a conspiracy theorist, have you forgotten that to this day some of your countrymen still believe in a cover-up by the NTSB on what happened on the above-mentioned AA A300, or the TWA 800 747 ? Where are the "more educated people outside the governmen"t to correct these facts ?
Please, no more lessons.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
1) Governments are made up of people, and people make mistakes. That's why all civilized societies have institutions like appellate courts. Judges, though a creation of the government, make mistakes.

And that exactly what I ask people to start trusting in.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
2) Sometimes, there's not a mistake but a group of educated people outside the government can come to different (and maybe even better) conclusions that a similar group of people within the government. No government is omniscient.

And on what basis ?

[Edited 2013-03-16 19:19:39]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-16 19:26:57 and read 30468 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
So you're just illustrating what I said above : without proof, a conspiracy theory on "secrecy".
Prove it.

No conspiracy theory at all. You're here talking about how it's a good thing that some of the transcript has not been released because it protects pilot privacy. You are suggesting, I think, that in France pilot privacy trumps safety and truthfinding, no? Please let me know if I'm mistaken.

It's a pretty common sentiment in the E.U., by the way. Privacy also trumps the truth-finding function of courts in a way that a lot of us in common law countries find really disturbing. But for a whole host of interesting historic reasons, France tends to be more protective of its own people than other European countries and certainly than other similarly-developed countries in the rest of the world.

Of course, that's a value choice. It's impossible for me to say that it's "better" or "worse" than another country's set of values. We must, however, not pretend that those choices lack consequences.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
And on what basis ?

Read some literature on group decision making. This isn't something that's particularly controversial or unsettled.

Two groups of similarly-educated people attacking the same incomplete hypothetical will often come to different conclusions because they make different assumptions. If one of those groups is the government, the government's conclusion isn't right just because it comes from the government.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: dfambro
Posted 2013-03-16 19:37:42 and read 30248 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 31):

Quoting dfambro (Reply 25):There should be no presumption of privacy during operation of a public transport.

That's an inherent principle in an open society. When it's not adhered to, the result it predictable: distrust.
You're either wrong or you have a selected memory : Whatever the facts, the proofs (even scientific ), the arguments are, there will always be a good part of the population who will believe in a conspiracy theory. See the web for thousands of examples... and unfortunately, this is one.

Yes, there will always be conspiracy nuts, but that's not relevant to the point I was making. Even the non-nuts distrust when reasonable disclosure is lacking.

An example for you - US President Richard Nixon repeatedly refused to release portions of his Whitehouse tapes to the Congressional House Judiciary Committee investigating the Watergate break-in, citing executive privilege and national security. Ulitmately he was legally compelled to release them. The evidence in the tapes was damning, and Nixon resigned 3 days after the key tape was made public. So, you see, sometimes the authorities are in fact hiding things behind a cloak of privilege/privacy.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-16 20:07:55 and read 29701 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
Can you point to a single redaction that you contend is inappropriate?

No. Every one has been appropriate as far as I can recall. My point is that the whole transcript could be redacted from the published NTSB report with no affect one way or the other on determination of probable cause or on safety improvements. I read CVR transcripts because the subject interests me, but I can't think of any instance where this has been of any practical use to me or anyone else. I rely completely on NTSB interpretations of FDR data (the original material is boring and I don't have the expertise to undestand it), and I' m sure I could get by just fine with the same regarding CVR data.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-16 20:11:16 and read 29653 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 33):
The inclusion of the fatigue element would have radically changed the aftermath of such a report to one in which very fatigued pilots were unable to cope with a situation which as the report points out, had been dealt with but without disaster by various other crews on A330 flights that experienced blocked pitots or episodes of unreliable speed data.

Agree to an extent, BenSandilands, but only that the captain's fatigue caused him to 'take a break' in 'difficult weather' - and he may also have 'contributed' to the accident by designating the least experienced of the other two pilots as 'Pilot Flying.' But is there evidence that the other two pilots were suffering from severe fatigue as well?

I ask because, as far as I know from the reports, the basic cause of the accident was that the pilots lost all speed indications through icing of the pitot-heads? The PF seems to have lost his bearings and pulled back on the sidestick, raising the nose, losing flying speed, and putting the aeroplane into a stall. Then he seems to have interpreted the remaining indications (particularly, I expect, the rapidly-unwinding altimeter) as an indication that the aeroplane was in a steep dive - and gone ON pulling back on the sidestick, prolonging the stall?

Given that there is no 'feedback' on the sidesticks - and apparently no old-fashioned "Angle of Attack' display - the more experienced 'Pilot-Not-Flying' probably never realised what was happening (especially the nose-up attitude and the continued pulling-back) and what the true cause of the steep descent was? And therefore, rather than taking control, he went back to call the captain - which took up most of the remaining time down to the water?

Please correct me if I've got any of that wrong? But if it's mostly right, it's pretty clear that 'fatigue' didn't cause the accident - the main causes appear much more likely to have been inexperience and/or insufficient training, and possibly inadequate instrumentation?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-03-16 21:04:36 and read 28747 times.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 2):
I stand corrected, I used the wrong word. But now I'm curious: what happens if a pilot calls the company and says he doesn't feel fit to fly, because of lack of sleep? Are there any consequences? This would surely mess up scheduling if an AF pilot does so while in GIG. Do pilots avoid admitting their lack of sleep to prevent a scheduling chaos and a huge delay? Where does one draw the line?

Well, in this case, there would have been a relief crew, right? Perhaps AF could have just switched the crews and their responsibilities, IF the relief crew was fit to fly (which they should have been).




Back in the early 80s, in SLC, before the merger with Western, we had a 727 to DFW, where the Captain got sick before departure time. Not being a pilot base, we were kind of stuck for crew members, but fortunately, we had a Captain that lived in Utah and commuted to DFW, which was his base. We got the okay from flight control (and others) in ATL and he took the flight out, dressed in green slacks, green tie and a green and white, plaid coat. Kind of funny, actually.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: AA87
Posted 2013-03-16 21:11:15 and read 28693 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 39):
and apparently no old-fashioned "Angle of Attack' display

NAV20, you summarized the basics well. But what I've never understood (as a low-time private pilot) is why at least the higher time NPF FO didn't notice the HSI showing the nose up ?? I'm not playing Monday morning quarterback, and I agree that a dead crew is entitled to the fullest respect and reservation of judgment from non-experts (me included) ... but if before this tragedy someone had said to me "quickly now -- you're in IMC, loss of airspeed indicators, you're pulling back on the stick, HSI shows nose up and alitmeter is unwinding ... why ?" I'm pretty sure I would have said "uh, a stall ... nose down asap".

I think that is the mystery others on this board have referred to.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-03-16 21:14:03 and read 28658 times.

Interesting... I wanted to rebut a bunch of the 'conspiracy theory' arguments, but what I cannot find is the distribution of the CVR or FDR data as normal... In a normal FAA investigation, which I've participated in, the avionics, airframer, engine maker, FAA, NTSB, and often *their competitors* receive a copy of the CVR and FDR data. This is so that those with an interest to find no-fault and those with an interest to find a fault (competitors/government) look through.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 33):
The use of public hearings by the NTSB is I believe, a net positive for air safety.

Even the 'private stuff' gets distributed. For example, I went through the Egypt Air flight 990 FDR data as did a few other Pratt engineers. When done, I was certain one pilot was trying to kill everyone (one side's commands were always the opposite of what you should do to the engines at that point of flight).

But what I note is that none of the people I know at GE saw the FDR data for 447... I'm not saying no one did... but I cannot verify through my rumor mill.

I really want to dismiss conspiracy theory and normally I could with most crashes. But the information is lacking on AF 447. It definitely wasn't a NTSB investigation... When those happen, like with the current 787, my 'rumor mill' lights up a bit.  

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-16 21:16:53 and read 28619 times.

NAV20,

This is why we need the full, but not personal transcript according to those who were good enough to lead me through the known sequence of events, and some of those similar pitot related events experienced by other A330 pilots.

The iced up pitots caused the unreliable speed indications which caused the disconnection of the auto-pilot, at which point an inappropriate response was made by the PF. The exact altitude at which the pitots cleared, or as the report describes, the speeds came back, was within the necessary time for a full recovery to have been made provided the correct procedure was followed. The report quotes an altitude, but I'm not in a position this afternoon (or evening for that matter) to retrieve and read it again.

This is where the question arises, what did the captain see or say or do when he reaches the back of the cockpit and asks 'what is going on here'. He was in a position to see that the PF side stick controller was pulled hard back.

What engagement was there between the more experienced PNF and the PF. Any? None? We get a summary by the two pilots (or was it one) of their bafflement to the captain. But what did they say before that, since their discussions weren't done using telepathy? At one point the captain is recorded as telling the PF to bring the nose down. The BEA report says that after that there was a shift in the PF side stick, but that after a short interval it was pulled back hard.

What is unfortunate is that we now have some pilots on a different page to those calling for more detailed disclosure about what was going on at the human level between the pilots and between them and the aircraft.

In my opinion, it wouldn't have taken too much additional disclosure to have everyone on one page, and Air France on the other since it has the ultimate responsibility for everything done by pilots on its flights.

Non-disclosure of the comments about fatigue takes pressure off Air France. What else has been left out of the transcript? Are we even discussing, or seeking clarity, about the right issues if we don't actually know what happened in the cockpit?

I'm a bit sensitive to accident reports that leave out information that reveals unsafe or unsatisfactory performances by operators given the evidence taken by the Senate Committee inquiry into the Pel-Air report.

It was personally a sharp lesson for this reporter to discover that I had trusted two bodies in Australian air safety to tell the truth, the ATSB and CASA, and that I had been deliberately deceived and misled, and as a result published false and injurious reports based on trusting official sources.

[Edited 2013-03-16 21:21:23]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mcdu
Posted 2013-03-16 21:33:21 and read 28352 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Pilots should be publicly accountable when they do something wrong, no different from professionals in any other industry (though perhaps the public has a heightened right to know with pilots since they are employees of a common carrier).

Are doctors audio and or video r.tapes available after a death on the operating table? The investigators have a need to know. You and other non-pilots have a desire to know. Unless you are an official assigned to an investigation you don't have a need to know. Curiosity is not a need.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-03-16 21:44:25 and read 28190 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
You and I both hold positions that require a license issued by the government. Those licenses are privileges. As a result, at least in the States, it's pretty well settled that the public has a near-absolute right to know about conduct that falls below a certain threshold.

True. However, they don't have a right to determine, for themselves, whether particular conduct falls below a certain threshold. Not all conversation that goes on in the cockpit of an accident flight is related to the accident, nor does it reflect conduct that isn't up to standards. If there's superfluous conversation at some point in a flight, there's no particular need for it to show up in a transcript.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 36):
Two groups of similarly-educated people attacking the same incomplete hypothetical will often come to different conclusions because they make different assumptions. If one of those groups is the government, the government's conclusion isn't right just because it comes from the government.

Also true. But that doesn't mean that the job of checking the government's conclusions should fall to people who have no knowledge of the field in question. There are groups of experts in the field who are better suited to make that call.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: AirPacific747
Posted 2013-03-16 23:41:15 and read 27045 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
I can answer that very quickly : It happened to me in Guadeloupe. Too tired to fly. OPS was advised, the flight was delayed 7 hours, to allow another pilot present to have his minimum rest... I took over his scheduled flight some 24 hours later. Our regulations are that a pîlot is sole responsible for estimating his physical / mental capacity to operate as a crew member.
I was given 10 days of rest by the airline medical department, and had to do a check-up before I resumed my duties.

Is it a small airline? In many carriers, if you call in sick, you have to provide the airline with a doctor's note, no matter what you felt was the problem. They tell the pilots to always call in sick in case they feel they are unfit to fly, but when they require a doctor's note every single time, then the pilots won't be bothred and go to work even if they didn't sleep at all the night before the flights.

Quoting BC77008 (Reply 34):
It's usually taken very lightly by an airline's crew scheduling department.

 checkmark  as long as they fulfill the official regulations, they make their pilots work as much as possible, even though the regulations might be wrong.

[Edited 2013-03-16 23:43:42]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: ManuCH
Posted 2013-03-17 03:08:19 and read 24540 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 44):
You and other non-pilots have a desire to know. Unless you are an official assigned to an investigation you don't have a need to know. Curiosity is not a need.

And this is how mistakes happen. As Cubsrule pointed out earlier:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 36):
Read some literature on group decision making. This isn't something that's particularly controversial or unsettled.

Two groups of similarly-educated people attacking the same incomplete hypothetical will often come to different conclusions because they make different assumptions. If one of those groups is the government, the government's conclusion isn't right just because it comes from the government.

Not because a government entity comes to a conclusion, it must necessarily be correct. There surely are plenty of people out there who have the necessary competences to make their own judgement on an accident report, but who aren't on the investigative board and therefore wouldn't have access to the data. This is wrong in my opinion.

BenSandilands, who seems to be well informed, has challenged the ATSB report of the Pel-Air crash. This would all have been much easier, I believe, had the ATSB disclosed all the information up front.

Also, the public which is not informed still has a right to know. It's "public transportation". Yes, they may not understand most of it, but the information must be there, open for consultation. A government entity shouldn't have to work in secrecy, unless national security is at stake. I agree that some of the most dramatic parts should be either replaced with (redacted) or (personal), but that's it.

Another reason for which I'm in favor of public data accessibility is to reduce the amount of conspiracies that may arise. If the data are there for open consultation, the facts are clear and there's no speculation. Yes, I do believe that conspiracies arising among the public are a bad thing, and certainly don't help an airline's reputation.

Again, unless it's a matter of national security, government work should be open and accessible (put hurdles in it to make it accessible if you want, so that not everyone can just download a PDF from an open site - like the need to send a letter to get access, or whatever - but it still should be available to everyone).

[Edited 2013-03-17 03:10:04]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mcdu
Posted 2013-03-17 04:39:36 and read 23233 times.

You want to dissect the pilots actions, comments etc, just to prevent a possible government coverup? That is the argument of cubs and CH. Should doctors and nurses be subjected to the same? If they take an action that results in a death shouldn't everyone that doesn't have a medical backgrounds be allowed to Monday morning quarterback their actions? I personally believe the investigation should be handled by experts versus the self claimed experts that often post in forums on the internet.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-17 04:47:30 and read 23146 times.

Quoting AA87 (Reply 41):
NAV20, you summarized the basics well. But what I've never understood (as a low-time private pilot) is why at least the higher time NPF FO didn't notice the HSI showing the nose up ??

Appreciate your comment, AA87. But I'd be grateful if one of the professionals on here would tell us whether a 'Horizontal Situation Indicator' is always shown on the instrument panel display - or whether the pilots of modern aeroplanes have to press 'Button B' or 'Button D' or something to get one?

Like you, I didn't accumulate many hours - and most of them were on sailplanes at that. I got married instead, and that was the end of flying.   But 'attitude/sinkrate' were always fundamental concerns (probably THE fundamental concerns) to me - especially in gliders, for obvious reasons.

I hope that one of the more experienced pilots on here can tell us both whether, and how, it is even possible for an aeroplane of any kind (leave alone an airliner flown by professionals) to remain in a nose-up attitude, below flying speed, for several minutes, all the way down to ground level, evidently without any of the three professional pilots involved noticing?

[Edited 2013-03-17 05:00:34]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: moo
Posted 2013-03-17 04:49:29 and read 23096 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 48):
If they take an action that results in a death shouldn't everyone that doesn't have a medical backgrounds be allowed to Monday morning quarterback their actions?

Why not? Its a free country - speculation is perfectly fine on all topics.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 48):
I personally believe the investigation should be handled by experts versus the self claimed experts that often post in forums on the internet.

I personally believe that the investigation should be handled by experts with credentials to back their status up, but I also believe that anyone who wants to is perfectly entitled to provide their own views, opinions and thoughts on the matter.

Which one of those two groups you personally listen to is up to you. But the fact that you don't like what the second group has to say doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to say it.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: ManuCH
Posted 2013-03-17 04:50:27 and read 23077 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 48):
Should doctors and nurses be subjected to the same? If they take an action that results in a death shouldn't everyone that doesn't have a medical backgrounds be allowed to Monday morning quarterback their actions?

Honestly? Yes, I think so. Of course by preserving the patient's identity/privacy etc. But medical errors are one of those things that make me angry every once in a while. Plenty of cover-ups there if you ask me (and believe me, I'm no conspiracist, I'm just realistic, and I have talked to my fair share of doctors and nurses who have the very same opinion I have, for the same reasons). Some (not all, some!) doctors would be much more careful in what they do if they knew that the public (because there *are* informed people among the public) could watch over their shoulders, if they wanted to.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 48):
I personally believe the investigation should be handled by experts versus the self claimed experts that often post in forums on the internet.

No, the investigation shouldn't be handled by self claimed experts, or by people who are passionate about it. But those people should be allowed to form their opinions. To do so, they need complete information.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-17 05:31:50 and read 22412 times.

What I uinderstand is that of all the references I made to this accident, the extract from the BEA official final report, etc... none has been replied to.
Bensandilands goes on on his appeal for full disclosure and doesn't even respond to the other posters. Talk about obsessive behaviour !
All want public access to the documents, whether they understand the technical / psychological / meteorological aspects of the document or not. That in my opinion leaves wide open, contrarily to the commen belief, a whole can of worms.
Let's see the results of some of the more widely publicised results of air accidents :
1/- Concorde at Gonesse : The majority on this site and espec ially those who are not French dispute a/ the report findings ; b/ the court findings ; c/ the AF poublications. Basically everyone is claiming a Freench conspiracy and an unjust blame on some engineer the other side of the Atlantic. No one - or close to no one - has ever questioned the way the repair on the DC-10 was made, the procedures of that airline... etc...
2/- The 320 accidents in Habsheim and Mount St Odile : Thirty years later, after the end of the judicial investigations there are still people distrusting the findings ( and btw, the full transcript of those accidents have been made public, to the scandal of the pilots Unions, so that the argument that full disclosure prevents conspiracy theories are quite far off their intended mark )
3/- I won't give you examples of NTSB completely dismissed conclusions... just let's remember the AA A300. As far as I remember, the tapes transcripts have been made public, or am I mistaken ?

I had a look last night at some of the Westwind ditching... What is the extraordinary news that completely changes the gist of the report ? Fatigue ? (in which case the airline gets a greater responsibility) or something else, really sinister about the Australian administration ? Training ?... Did it fundamentally alter the event reporting and the course of the factors leading to the ditching ? As far as I know, no.
This thread started with a reporter writing that the captain said "... I only slept one hour last night... that's not nearly enough" and , BLAAAM KERBOOOM ! a bunch of people jump into the bandwagon : Those dastardly French are once again hiding the truth to protect... God only knows what ?
Question : Are you really really sure that you have access, as the Constitution stipulates, every control of your government actions, the fine print on everyday-affecting regulations, be they on safety / security / legal matters, and the right to access ?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-17 05:40:21 and read 22256 times.

Quoting AA87 (Reply 41):
the higher time NPF FO didn't notice the HSI showing the nose up ?

HSI is for "horizontal Situation Indicator", ie a display of the navigation plan and the compass rose. It displays the VOR / ADFs indicator needles if desired by pilots. I9 don't see how you could derive a stalling situation from it.
Unfortunaterly, it qualifies you into the "Monday Quarterbacking" you described well.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 49):
tell us whether a 'Horizontal Situation Indicator' is always shown on the instrument panel display

Yes. We need it for the "Navigate" part of the job.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: ManuCH
Posted 2013-03-17 05:58:50 and read 21936 times.

Everyone, I know this is a sensitive and controversial topic, but please make sure not to get personal and/or offensive towards other users.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: workhorse
Posted 2013-03-17 06:05:04 and read 21830 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 53):
he higher time NPF FO didn't notice the HSI showing the nose up ?

HSI is for "horizontal Situation Indicator", ie a display of the navigation plan and the compass rose. It displays the VOR / ADFs indicator needles if desired by pilots. I9 don't see how you could derive a stalling situation from it.
Unfortunaterly, it qualifies you into the "Monday Quarterbacking" you described well.

Well, the term used was not the right one, but the question still remains: how could none of them pay attention to the plane's nose up attitude? Also, the other question was, is the artificial horizon always visible on the PFD, whatever the display mode?

My understanding is that the answer to the second question is "yes", and to the first one, "we don't know".

[Edited 2013-03-17 06:10:39]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mcdu
Posted 2013-03-17 06:21:38 and read 21580 times.

Quoting AA87 (Reply 41):
you're in IMC, loss of airspeed indicators, you're pulling back on the stick, HSI shows nose up and alitmeter is unwinding ... why ?" I'm pretty sure I would have said "uh, a stall ... nose down asap".

As mentioned by another poster the HSI is not an attitude instrument. You are trying to say AADI. However, the airbus uses PFD's for primary flight display.

Believe I recall the transcript the airspeed on AF was showing an over speed due to the iced over pitot static tubes. The FO raised the nose to correct the over speed.

Large heavy aircraft have thin margins between low and high speeds at altitude and heavy weights like AF. It did not take much to create the stalled condition. My memory of the transcript is that during the nose up high airspeed event the stall system was triggered. Now you are faced with contradictory flight information. Once stalled the heavy airplane requires significant unloading and a pitch down to recover. Something that was generally only demonstrated once in a Sim. The altitude required and pitch needed to recover are very unnatural. No matter who is flying deep south trips the hours of flying are at low circadian cycles and to sort an issue like this in daylight on your local body clock would be difficult. I certainly wouldn't want to be faced with the same set of circumstances myself.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-17 06:51:01 and read 21169 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 53):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 49):
tell us whether a 'Horizontal Situation Indicator' is always shown on the instrument panel display

Yes. We need it for the "Navigate" part of the job.

Cheers, Pihero, always (sincerely) good to see you!   Thing is, though, in a glider, you have to make sure that you're maintaining a 'sink-rate' of at least 45 feet a minute, and adequate airspeed - if you don't, unless you're lucky enough to be enjoying lots of 'lift,' you're risking a stall. Any MORE than that, and you'll likely have to walk home!  

I think that I might, by accident, just by googling, to have found most of the answer to AF447. In simple terms, it appears that ''modern' pilots are not taught to rely on what oldies like us would call 'instrument flying.' Instead, they appear to rely on 'Flight Directors' - which, as far as I can tell, are developed by geeks, not pilots:-

"In its final report into the loss of an Air France Airbus A330 over the South Atlantic on June 1, 2009, French air accident investigation agency BEA (Bureau d’Enquetes et d’Analyses) has managed to explain most–but not all–of the pitch-up inputs by the pilot who was flying the aircraft at the time of the accident during the last minutes of Air France Flight 447. The report, published on July 5, said that the pilot flying (PF) kept pulling the stick and this caused the Airbus A330 to stall and prevented a recovery.

"In a tense press conference held last Thursday at Le Bourget Airport in Paris BEA director Jean-Paul Troadec and his team pointed at human-machine interface issues that made the situation extremely confusing for the crew. All 228 occupants died when the aircraft, flying from Rio to Paris, crashed at night while negotiating a region with heavy thunderstorm activity. BEA had published an interim report in July 2011.

"A major new finding in the final report concerned the flight director, which normally displays symbology on the pilots’ primary flying displays that give guidance on control inputs to reach a desired steady-state flightpath. After the autopilot and autothrottle disengaged, as the flight control law switched from normal to alternate, the flight director’s crossbars disappeared. But they then reappeared several times. Every time they were visible, they prompted pitch-up inputs by the PF, investigators determined. It took them a long time to “rebuild” what the flight director displayed since this is not part of the data recorded by the flight data recorder.

"The BEA acknowledged that the PF might have followed flight director indications. This was not the right thing to do in a stall but it seems that the crew never realized that the aircraft was in a stall. Moreover, the successive disappearance and reappearance of the crossbars reinforced this false impression, the investigators suggested. For the crew, this could have suggested their information was valid.

"None of the pilots recognized that the flight director was changing from one mode to another because they were just too busy. The PF may have trusted the flight director so much that he was verbally agreeing to the other pilot’s pitch-down instructions, while still actually pitching up.


"The BEA’s report includes significant recommendations about the flight director. One of them calls for European Aviation Safety Agency to review its “display logic.” The flight director should disappear or present “appropriate orders” in a stall.

"The BEA’s report includes significant recommendations about the flight director. One of them calls for European Aviation Safety Agency to review its “display logic.” The flight director should disappear or present “appropriate orders” in a stall.

"The investigators made it clear that from the start the crew should have followed a procedure called “unreliable indicated airspeed,” which involves disconnecting the flight director. They also concluded that the still-connected flight director behaved in a way that is not specific to the A330. However, Leopold Sartorius, head of the investigation’s avionics systems working group, said he did not conduct an exhaustive study on other airliners to determine whether the flight director would have behaved in the same way."


http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...wed-flight-director-pitch-commands

Sorry for the long post and quote - but I hope it 'progresses' the discussion.  Smile

[Edited 2013-03-17 07:08:27]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: AA87
Posted 2013-03-17 07:57:38 and read 20072 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 56):
As mentioned by another poster the HSI is not an attitude instrument. You are trying to say AADI. However, the airbus uses PFD's for primary flight display.

Thank you, meant attitude direction (director ?) indicator. I've been in Airbus cockpits many times, including in flight, isn't the ADI always displayed ? After so many years and reading so many threads and analyses on this accident, I still don't understand why the crew clearly did not seem to appreciate that the nose was too high most of the time.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 56):
Believe I recall the transcript the airspeed on AF was showing an over speed due to the iced over pitot static tubes. The FO raised the nose to correct the over speed.

Makes perfect sense.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: AA87
Posted 2013-03-17 08:07:46 and read 19937 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 57):
It took them a long time to “rebuild” what the flight director displayed since this is not part of the data recorded by the flight data recorder.

Finally ! To my credit, I said to an ATP friend after the CVRs were firrst released years ago that we'll never know exactly what the pilots were seeing on their displays, and that was the critical missing link in understanding their actions and reactions. Everyone following this knew that the Airbus human-system interface had to be an important factor.

Pihero, please lighten up. Anyone can see I am not second guessing the crew, even if I confused HSI with AADI. In fact, I have felt all along that whatever mistakes the crew made -- and they unquestionably did make grave mistakes -- the mistakes could not be understood and prevented in the future without assessing exactly what information they were receiving and, most importantly, perceiving. That's not Monday morning quarterbacking. I'm a lawyer, it's called asking the right questions.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: AA87
Posted 2013-03-17 08:16:37 and read 19752 times.

Quoting workhorse (Reply 55):
Also, the other question was, is the artificial horizon always visible on the PFD, whatever the display mode?

That was the point of my question. I would be shocked if the artificial horizon, which is such a basic instrument, was not visible in all PFD modes. And even if it isn't, don't all Boeing and Airbus have a fixed, standby ADI near the center console ?

Also, wasn't there a comment on the CVR by I believe the PF at one point saying "I've lost everything " ? I've always believed (and feared as a pax) that loss of one or several data sets during instrument conditions could lead a crew to doubt the remaining data. I've always supected that's what happened here. While it may have been easy to replicate a successful outcome in the sim, I think a sudden, unexpected loss of airspeed PLUS involuntary switch to alternate law led certainly the PF FO and eventually the NPF FO to start doubting everything they were seeing. As all instrument pilots know, when that happens, a good outcome is nearly impossible.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airmagnac
Posted 2013-03-17 08:20:29 and read 19677 times.

I don’t understand this fuss about voice recordings disclosure, to be honest. It is a case of balancing collective rights – right to safety – and individual rights – the pilot’s rights to privacy. Authorities currently think that there is no need to completely squash the pilot’s rights in order to maintain an acceptable level of safety, and as far as I can see, the steadily increasing overall safety performance of the industry does not contradict this decision.

And safety is the unique goal here, I don’t see why we need to introduce the vague notion of “trust” in the balance. Who’s supposed to trust who, exactly ? What kind of trust are we talking about ? The general public implicitly trusts the professionals of the industry, or nobody would ever set a foot on an airplane. So what additional amount of “trust” are we trying to gain here by disclosing every single detail ? And what good can that do ? Most accusations against investigative authorities are the result of misinterpretations of data due to cognitive biases and lack of knowledge. Heck, just look at the first “787 grounded” threads, where we managed to have strong, even violent, disagreements of the meaning of an NTSB statement of about 4 lines. Providing more data, especially ambiguous and non-decisive data, will only provide food for more BS theories.

Also, as Pihero rightly pointed out, conspiracy theories die hard. To carry on with his example, it’ll soon be 25 years since Habsheim ; from the start it is known that the first data listing was wrong, with for example an aircraft position in Africa. The reason for this was quickly identified (a mistake in the decoding protocol) and corrected. And yet 25 years later you still have lots of people basing theories on the “erroneous data”. The president of the victims association even mentioned such a theory in a report on Canal + as recently as last fall. Give all the factual information you want, some people will only see what they want to see.

Another thing : it has been mentioned that all investigation details must be shared between various different “groups” in order to be sure the conclusions are valid. This is absolutely correct, and is the basis of scientific thought. Which is precisely what technical investigations aim to be. And that is why data is already shared between the various investigation boards from all countries through observers, why data is shared with manufacturers, pilot unions, airlines and so on, why final reports go through reading loops and comment processes. And I’m pretty sure that at an individual level, investigators from any country can contact each other personally if they find something that seems strange in each other’s work. Same for engineers, pilots, controllers… And as citizens it is quite possible to contact investigation boards directly. So qualifying investigations as being “secret” is a bit rich, IMO.

That the report is scientific also means that anything it states must be clearly demonstrated with clearly confirmed observations. If something is not certain, than it doesn’t go in. You cannot base safety measures on ambiguous, partial or uncertain assessments. So before screaming about secrecy and conspiracy, if something is not in a report it may be just a case of it not being sufficiently certain


As a matter of fact, as I have not seen it yet in the thread, here is what the final report says about fatigue :

Quote:

1.16.7 Aspects relating to fatigue
The professional timetable of the three crew members during the month that
preceded the accident flight shows that the limitations on flight and duty times, as
well as rest times, were in accordance with the provisions of European Regulation
(EC) n°859/2008 of the European Commission (sub-section Q of Annex III).
The investigation was not able to determine exactly the activities of the flight crew
members during the stopover in Rio, where the crew had arrived three days earlier. It
was not possible to obtain data on their sleep during this stopover.
This lack of precise information on their activity during the stopover, in particular in
relation to sleep, makes it impossible to evaluate the level of fatigue associated to
the flight crew’s duty time.
The CVR recording does, however, make it possible to show that the crew showed no
signs of objective fatigue, as the following elements indicate:
The level of activity and implication of the augmented crew in the first part of
the flight, with the Captain and the copilot seated in the right seat, then in the
second part of the flight with the two copilots, are in accordance with what is
expected from a crew in the cruise phase. No signs of drowsiness or sleepiness
are noticeable;
At 0 h 58 min 07, the Captain was concerned with the state of fatigue of the
copilot in the right seat. («try maybe to sleep twenty minutes when he comes
back or before if you want ») who answered that he didn’t want to sleep;
Questioned on his return to the cockpit, the copilot who took the Captain’s place
answered that he had “dozed”

We all know human factors played a significant role, there is no need to be an expert for that. It is remarkable that the final report says very little about those, even though BEA created a dedicated work group. But I do not see it as a matter of hiding anything. I just think they had lots of guesses, but few actual confirmed conclusions. As human factors are already a big topic of research, pilot fatigue in particular, the investigators probably judged they could not bring anything useful to the topic, and decided there was no need to mix the other confirmed findings with wild-ass guess work (IMO)

But accusations of cover-ups are so much more dramatic than cold, dry, boring logic...

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airmagnac
Posted 2013-03-17 08:43:41 and read 19316 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 57):
just by googling, to have found most of the answer to AF447

That's an idea, let's shut down all accident investigation boards and replace them with Google. Full access to info, no hiding anything, any answer you want, immediately. Just awesome  



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 57):
'Flight Directors' - which, as far as I can tell, are developed by geeks, not pilots

- geeks can sometimes be pilots (and pilots can be geeks)
- FDs are developed by geeks not pilots...but they are supposed to be used by pilots, not geeks
- geeks don't just develop gadgets in a garage in isolation from the rest of the world. They work together with pilots (among others) to decide what to develop.
Please don't portray "geeks"/engineers and pilots as two conflicting, independant groups


Oh, and no accident can be boiled down to a single item. Just to give you a hint, among other things involved, there were :
- complex icing phenomena in complex meteorigical conditions combined with complex high speed air flows
- integrity of passive air data sensor systems
- ambiguous exchange of information / communication between aircraft systems
- ambiguous exchange of information / communication between aircraft and crew (ergonomy & type training)
- ambiguous exchange of information / communication crew members (CRM)
- ambiguous exchange of information / communication between airlines, manufacturer and authorities
- airmanship training methods and tools

All of which contributed to a loss of situational awareness and, following, very bad decision-making. Obviously in the cockpit during those last few minutes, but equally so in meeting rooms and offices half-way around the world, several months before the plane took off.

And let's not forget the communication problems between aircraft, ATC and SAR services

To sum it up : this accident is not the fault of the pilots OR Airbus OR AF OR the authorities OR Thales OR whatever
It is the failure of the pilots AND Airbus AND AF AND the authorities AND etc... all together.

[Edited 2013-03-17 08:48:09]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-17 09:41:57 and read 18431 times.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 62):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 57):
just by googling, to have found most of the answer to AF447

That's an idea, let's shut down all accident investigation boards and replace them with Google. Full access to info, no hiding anything, any answer you want, immediately. Just awesome

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 57):
'Flight Directors' - which, as far as I can tell, are developed by geeks, not pilots

- geeks can sometimes be pilots (and pilots can be geeks)
- FDs are developed by geeks not pilots...but they are supposed to be used by pilots, not geeks
Quoting airmagnac (Reply 62):
To sum it up : this accident is not the fault of the pilots OR Airbus OR AF OR the authorities OR Thales OR whatever
It is the failure of the pilots AND Airbus AND AF AND the authorities AND etc... all together.

I guess we largely agree, armagnac. All we have to settle on are the 'percentages' of guilt. Establishing that'll take five years or so, hope you live that long. Statistically speaking, given that I'm already 73, I probably won't........ 

Thing is, life has to go on. And ALL the agencies that you refer to - and others, including Boeing - will have to play their part in ensuring that.

There are only two major firms left in the aviation business. At the moment, Airbus has suffered the most recent accident, and their 'accident percentage' is a bit over 50% - but the 'law of averages' says that the next one will probably be a Boeing one.

BOTH current major airliner manufacturers are safer than any others that have been previously established, in world history, so far. Does that fact 'bother you' in some way?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-17 10:06:16 and read 18107 times.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 62):
That's an idea, let's shut down all accident investigation boards and replace them with Google.

Thing is, airmagnac mate, in real life, dealing with any problem, you have to investigate, analyse, conclude, recommend.......

Please give us all an outline of your conclusions - and recommendations?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: threepoint
Posted 2013-03-17 10:13:15 and read 18069 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 9):
And our CVR recordings are not for the ghouls who would seek some sick pleasure in listening to the last words of dead people.

They will make references to the tapes, but the transcript is not for public use.
We pilots will not allow it.

As a professional pilot and devotee to the philosophy of 'learn from the mistakes of others; you'll not live long enough to make them all yourself', I object to this statement above. Yes, there is always going to be a fraction of the population who take perverse fascination with the demise of others. But not releasing CVR recordings and/or transcripts is doing a great disservice to aviation and to all those who fly or fly in airplanes.

I have heard and read many 'last words' as you term them and have learned a lesson (or a few lessons) from each of them. Indeed, I regularly teach in a CRM course one particular example ('Palm 90' in 1982) at the end of which the first officer is heard to state "Larry, we're going down" and the captain replies "I know it". Hardly ghoulish, is it. But it illuminates the thrust of the lesson, in which this exchange is the only functional communication between the flight crew during the takeoff and accident sequences. Analyzing exchanges like this one allows us to form positive communication techniques that help ensure that anomalies are detected, announced and resolved quickly rather than have a pilot sitting idly with silent misgivings as they hurtle towards an accident.

I can appreciate pilots' and unions' concerns about cameras in the cockpit. I suspect most of their opposition has more to do with fear of discipline by management than real concerns about invasions of privacy. But to deny the lessons learned from what was said (or not said) in the time leading to an accident or incident does, as I stressed above, deny the rest of the aviation community valuable lessons that they may apply to avoid repeating the affected crew's fate. So when today's pilots refuse to permit dissemination of accumulated knowledge just because somebody may have died, do they realize how they might be contributing towards the accidents of tomorrow's pilots?

[Edited 2013-03-17 10:16:58]

[Edited 2013-03-17 10:20:32]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-17 10:55:14 and read 17905 times.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 65):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 9):They will make references to the tapes, but the transcript is not for public use.
We pilots will not allow it.

As a professional pilot and devotee to the philosophy of 'learn from the mistakes of others; you'll not live long enough to make them all yourself', I object to this statement above.

As a "professional pilot" you do not qualify as "the public" in this situation.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 65):
I have heard and read many 'last words' as you term them and have learned a lesson (or a few lessons) from each of them. Indeed, I regularly teach in a CRM course one particular example

That's excellent. Aviation professionals certainly should have access to transcripts and sometimes even recordings. The public, on the other hand, should not have access to recordings, and for us transcripts merely make interesting reading and serve no useful purpose.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: ManuCH
Posted 2013-03-17 10:59:34 and read 17875 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 66):
Aviation professionals certainly should have access to transcripts and sometimes even recordings. The public, on the other hand, should not have access to recordings

How do you define "aviation professionals" and how where would you draw the line between those who can get access, and those who can't? And how do you enforce that? Would a CPL license be enough, or do you need an ATPL? A valid rating too? An employment at an airline?

And how would you identify yourself as such a professional? Would a pilot who wants access need to send copies of his license to the safety board who completed the investigation? That would be a mess and a bureaucratic nightmare.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airmagnac
Posted 2013-03-17 11:00:16 and read 17911 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 63):
All we have to settle on are the 'percentages' of guilt

Actually I don't give a d*** about aportioning blame. I don't even think it's possible. I'm a system engineer ; I see the airline industry as a huge system made up of several interacting parts : flight crews, cabin crews, airframe, ATC, maintenance, ops planning, and more. Each of these parts is itself a system made up of several interacting sub-parts. All these elements must work together to deliver saftey and performance. That means they exchange information and interact with each other. Which causes something which is rather difficult to understand : although each and every part of a system may be working perfectly well, the system may very well fail. The pilots may very well make the proper decisions based on the data they have, and their aircraft may be responding perfectly to their inputs, but the assembly {aircrfat + pilots} may fail.
For a system to work properly, it is obviously necessary that each sub-part work properly. But it is far from sufficient.
Another way to see it is that you cannot seperate the parts : pilots without an airplane are pedestrians ; an airplane without pilots is a pile of scrap metal (or composite material, I guess). Aportioning blame on single parts of the system means taking each part in isolation from the rest of the system. But if the problem lays in the interaction between the parts, then what ?
So no, aportioning guilt to each part of the system is useless. What we still have to do is identify the problems, propose possible solutions, decide on the best solution, and implement that solution. And there is still a long way to go to get that done.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 63):

There are only two major firms left in the aviation business

That's a rather unfair statement for Bombardier, Embraer, Dassault, Sukhoi, Gulfstream, Cessna and so many other firms ! 
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 63):
At the moment, Airbus has suffered the most recent accident, and their 'accident percentage' is a bit over 50% - but the 'law of averages' says that the next one will probably be a Boeing one.

A weird statistic based on many underlying assumptions which may or may not be true : equal fleet sizes, equal "safety level' between the fleets of both airframers, equivalent mission profiles for both fleets...
But more importantly, as I have already said, an accident is the failure of the entire airline industry ; you cannot single out any sub-part of the system. Which is why these stats saying "Airbus has x accidents compared to y for Boeing" or "Air France has crashed 3 planes in ten years" are meaningless.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 63):

BOTH current major airliner manufacturers are safer than any others that have been previously established, in world history, so far. Does that fact 'bother you' in some way?

Not at all, because as I said, such statements are meaningless. Airbus and Boeing can build the most sophisticated airplanes, if the pilots are not trained correctly, if maintenance is shoddy or if controllers give bad directions, you'll still have a poor safety record.
What can be said is that the safety performance of the industry keeps getting better. And that does not bother me at all !

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 64):

Thing is, airmagnac mate, in real life, dealing with any problem, you have to investigate, analyse, conclude, recommend.......

Quite right. But wouldn't that best be done by reading the final BEA report, and using it, instead of looking up a single short, simplified article quoting the report on a single aspect of the accident, taken out of context and reinterpreted by a reporter who may or may not be competent ?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-17 11:32:18 and read 17801 times.

To Airmagnac :
That is the best post I've seen so far on this thread and, as a matter of fact, the AF447 accident.
Respect is due.
If I may, I would have just added some more emphasis on the lines Nav20 picked up as they are really the crux of the matter :
: "...To sum it up : This accident is not the FAULT of the pilots OR Airbus OR Air France OR the authorities OR Thales OR whoever.
It is the FAILURE of the pilots, AND Airbus AND Air France AND the authorities AND Thales etc... altogether. "

Some comments : The captain, in response to a cockpit visitor said " ...cette nuit, je n'ai pas assez dormi . Une heure, c'était pas assez tout à l'heure "
which translates as "...last night I didn't have enough sleep. (just) one hour wasn't enough later", referring to an early afternoon nap, in all probability.

The experts'reports sees as factors of the accident :

" 4.2 : adverse conditions : at night, in turbulence and absence of ouside visual references.
4.3 : Maximum fatigue in the low circadian phase"


I asked a physician about the meaning of such a statrement and the answer was : "One has to consider scientific results on many researches about human ability to perform a given task during normal circadian cycles. Whatever the quality of rest, performance is degraded during these phases when normal activity would be sleep. The maximum degradation happens in the hours before sunrise and it is also dependent on trhe time zone one is at against the perceived time zone of one's internal clock."
It is not a subjective assessment of this crew's fatigue for their activities during their three days in Rio.
Finally, the experts' report has been leaked on the net... and the CVR transcript has edited all the "non-pertinent" words and sentences the crew said... so the ghouls can stay away from it.
There is though an attempt - and a good one - at making laypeople understand the technical aspects of the accident. But still, in order to get the most of it, one has to speak - and understand technical and legalese - French and be a pilot or an aeronautical engineer.

[Edited 2013-03-17 11:48:06]

[Edited 2013-03-17 11:48:44]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: captainmeeerkat
Posted 2013-03-17 11:56:20 and read 17636 times.

How does "last night" become the actual day of flying? Or is there something lost in translation?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-17 11:58:10 and read 17646 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 52):
The majority on this site and espec ially those who are not French dispute a/ the report findings ; b/ the court findings ; c/ the AF poublications. Basically everyone is claiming a Freench conspiracy and an unjust blame on some engineer the other side of the Atlantic. No one - or close to no one - has ever questioned the way the repair on the DC-10 was made, the procedures of that airline... etc...

Most of the squeamishness about the Concorde crash, at least that I've seen, has nothing to do with the technical questions but is legal or cultural and related to the following issues:

1) It is very unusual (dare I say very French?) for criminal charges to be leveled for what all agree is, at worst, simple negligence;
2) It is very unusual for criminal charges to be leveled for FOD; and
3) There is a perception--maybe not a fair perception--on this side of the Atlantic that the subpar design of the Concorde that permitted a fairly small piece of FOD to cause catastrophe has not received adequate scrutiny in France.

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):
Not all conversation that goes on in the cockpit of an accident flight is related to the accident, nor does it reflect conduct that isn't up to standards. If there's superfluous conversation at some point in a flight, there's no particular need for it to show up in a transcript.

Agreed. That said, I review a lot of CVR transcripts because of some human factors work with which I'm involved in a similar industry, and I've never had reason to believe that any NTSB redaction was inappropriate.

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):
Also true. But that doesn't mean that the job of checking the government's conclusions should fall to people who have no knowledge of the field in question. There are groups of experts in the field who are better suited to make that call.

But if the government gets to make the call on who has access to the information, what does that really accomplish? We still have the potential for the government to be wrong.

Can you point me toward an example in the States where information that NTSB made publicly available hurt the industry or any of the actors involved with a particular crash? If not, what's the downside of making lots of information available.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: art
Posted 2013-03-17 12:28:48 and read 17510 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 49):
I hope that one of the more experienced pilots on here can tell us both whether, and how, it is even possible for an aeroplane of any kind (leave alone an airliner flown by professionals) to remain in a nose-up attitude, below flying speed, for several minutes, all the way down to ground level, evidently without any of the three professional pilots involved noticing?
Quoting AA87 (Reply 58):
Thank you, meant attitude direction (director ?) indicator. I've been in Airbus cockpits many times, including in flight, isn't the ADI always displayed ? After so many years and reading so many threads and analyses on this accident, I still don't understand why the crew clearly did not seem to appreciate that the nose was too high most of the time.

Bit off topic but I, too, am baffled that the crew did not see some instrument or display showing that the aircraft had its nose above the horizon.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: ltbewr
Posted 2013-03-17 12:43:45 and read 17447 times.

While I do support that potential alertness issues could be a factor in what happened with AF447, I think some here are just wanting to fine the 'ah-ha' or some singular factor that was critical as to the PIC/FO that led to this terrible crash.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-17 12:58:42 and read 17413 times.

As someone new to the board but a reader for some time, I'm struck by the way unrelated issues distract from the core issue.

Let me summarise:

Le Point reveals that on the unreleased portions of CVR the captain makes disturbing disclosures about fatigue.

Those disclosures do two things.

They raise fatigue as a potential factor in the crash at a level not apparent in the final report, and

They tells us that the BEA has suppressed information relevant to an air crash investigation which is also information that embarrasses or implicates the national icon, Air France, which is responsible for the actions of its pilots and the the safety of their workplace.

These are really serious issues.

They leave us asking, what else has been suppressed, and how important might such information be to a full and balanced finding by the safety investigator?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-17 13:43:46 and read 17271 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 71):
simple negligence

There are, my dear sir a great deal of instances where "simple negligence" led to catastrophies, even some which do not involve the French : The Ermenonville DC-10 comes to mind.
The DC-10 which lost an engine was another...
If we just sit here ascribing these accidents to "simple negligence " akin, as I understand you, as an "Act of God", tell me : What's the use of accident investigation ?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 71):
There is a perception--maybe not a fair perception--on this side of the Atlantic that the subpar design of the Concorde that permitted a fairly small piece of FOD to cause catastrophe has not received adequate scrutiny in France.

That smacks of a "not designed here" syndrome : Think of the - again - DC-10 cargo door, the Comet window frame, the Electra, the 737 rudder...the Space Shuttle... are they subpar designs too ? The industry is at the pointy end of technological knowledge and despite rigourous testing, we continually find areas where some improvements need to be done : The 787 battery problems belong in that area. Would you treat it as subpar design, too ? or more fairly something that hasn't shown in three years of testing and service and came as a surprise to all aviation interested people ?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 71):
Can you point me toward an example in the States where information that NTSB made publicly available hurt the industry or any of the actors involved with a particular crash? If not, what's the downside of making lots of information available.

There is an answer to that paragraph : Can you point me toward an example in the United States where an NTSB report is different from a BEApublicly available report, CVR transcripts included ? They have to adhere to an internationally agreed format and one can even find the articles follow an agreed plan.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 65):
Indeed, I regularly teach in a CRM course one particular example ('Palm 90' in 1982) at the end of which the first officer is heard to state "Larry, we're going down" and the captain replies "I know it". Hardly ghoulish, is it. But it illuminates the thrust of the lesson, in which this exchange is the only functional communication between the flight crew during the takeoff and accident sequences.

You misunderstood me. The last words I refer to are of a "personal quality" which do not have any pertinence to the accident. Whether a dying pilot calls his mother or his wife should not be your concern and should not be made available to people who otherwise have no understanding whatsoever of the technical / human factors... aspects of the accident.

If you had done any reading of the AF447 CVR transcript, you would have found lots of these instances : although of a personal nature, they illustrate the total misunderstanding of ther situation they were in.

There are even, in some transcripts some exchanges that could lead to a better understanding of the dynamics of CRM in emergency situations : the Sioux City accident is one instance in which there was total acquisition of the strategic plan by all in the cockpit , until the final moments when the synergy completely broke down : the opposition between slowing down - and letting the nose drop - and keeping the nose up with the risk of landing too long... I studied that event at length and wrote a paper for a course : nobody on that course was arrogant enough to pretend he could have saved the day... and nobody had any criticism for that crew : it was just an illustration on an exceptionally good CRM and crew dynamics...until the end.
That's one example where an accident report can help improve consciousness and knowledge from the professional crews.
And for that, one doesn't need expletives or expressions of religious faith... to be made public. They belong to the realm of privacy, or dare I say intimity.

[Edited 2013-03-17 13:47:46]

[Edited 2013-03-17 13:54:42]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-17 13:58:06 and read 17159 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 75):
There are, my dear sir a great deal of simple negligence that led to catastrophies, even some which do not involve the French : The Ermenonville DC-10 comes to mind.

I agree. But besides Concorde, have ANY led to criminal charges? That's the difference that has caused a lot of concern in the States, fair or not.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 75):
If we just sit here ascribing these accidents to "simple negligence " akin as I understand you as an "Act of God", tell me : What's the use of accident investigation ?

Outside of France, accident investigation generally does not lead to criminal charges. The concern comes from the criminal charges, not from the investigation.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 75):
Would you treat it as subpar design, too ? or more fairly something that hasn't shown in three years of testing and service and came as a surprise to all aviation interested people ?

Provided that no design problem is found in the batteries, I don't think there's a design problem with the 787. The containment vessels worked as designed and intended.

Certainly, there are plenty of examples of poor design leading to accidents, including several of the cases you cited.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 75):
Can you point me toward an example in the United States where an NTSB report is different from a BEApublicly available report, CVR transcripts included ? They have to adhere to an internationally agreed format and one can even find the articles follow an agreed plan.

i don't read many BEA reports, so I am basing my comments on what you said at the very beginning: that in France and at the behest of unions, it is acceptable for safety-relevant information that is "personal" to be withheld from BEA reports. If that is incorrect, let me know.

[Edited 2013-03-17 14:18:52]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mcdu
Posted 2013-03-17 14:11:01 and read 17100 times.

Quoting art (Reply 72):
Bit off topic but I, too, am baffled that the crew did not see some instrument or display showing that the aircraft had its nose above the horizon.

normal cruise flight is a few degrees nose above the horizon. In fact a heavy transport aircraft is rarely nose below the horizon. Most descents can be made at or slightly below zero pitch. Approaches are flown with positive pitch angles.

Also an airplane can be stalled at any pitch. It is the AOA that really matters.

What took place that night was tragic. The crew had serious loss of information and flight guidance. In cloud or at night recovery would have been extremely difficult with the contradictory flight information they were working with.

The captain complaint of sleep is normal in long haul flying. This thread is another enthusiasts over reaction unfortunately.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-17 14:30:59 and read 16983 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 76):
But besides Concorde, have ANY led to criminal charges

Basically most of them. some people have been imprisoned for reckless behaviour leading to manslaughter.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 76):
That's the difference that has caused a lot of concern in the States, fair or not.

That's the way our system works. And you have to respect it. As we do the US way of dealing with other subjects, securityhaving been the biggest one for some time.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 76):
Outside of France, accident investigation generally does not lead to criminal charges. The concern comes from the criminal charges, not from the investigation.

Actually, there are quite a number of countries which have similar systems. Fair or not in your opinion doesn't matter. That is their judicial system.
And the BEA report doesn't lead to criminal charges : that's the privilegte of the instruction judge and the judge of the tribunal.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 76):
it is acceptable for safety-relevant information that is "personal" to be withheld from BEA reports. If that is incorrect, let me know.

That's not what I meant : The CVR recording : Hell ! NO!!!
The full transcript : Over our dead bodies !!!
See my last post above, it gives you how far we are ready to go in the intrerest of understanding an accident : Basically the last five minutes haven't been edited at all : Thjre is absolutely no technical aspect in those last instants. That absence in fact is very important as in basic terms they were no longer pros, just three people baffled by events beyond their understanding. Do you really, really need more ?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-17 14:36:53 and read 16948 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 78):
That's the way our system works. And you have to respect it. As we do the US way of dealing with other subjects, securityhaving been the biggest one for some time.

I do respect it, but by the same token you need to understand why a lot of folks on this side of the pond (particularly those who, unlike me, lack comparative law training) have concerns about how the events surrounding that crash.

Why was CO charged and not EADS (as successor in interest to Aerospatiale) or BAe (as successor in interest to BAC)?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 78):
Basically the last five minutes haven't been edited at all : Thjre is absolutely no technical aspect in those last instants. That absence in fact is very important as in basic terms they were no longer pros, just three people baffled by events beyond their understanding. Do you really, really need more ?

I'm certainly not willing to concede that there is never relevant information outside the last five minutes.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-17 14:43:57 and read 16915 times.

What is not normal is that the accident report has suppressed a reference to fatigue which is a reflection on the operator if we accept that the leak from the CVR is correct.

Selective disclosure in an accident report is improper, and the more so when it involves the national carrier.

The fact that fatigue is an issue for all pilots and all airlines doesn't make it less relevant to the AF447 report, if anything, if we follow the James Reason approach to aviation safety analysis, it makes it even more important for the report to include this issue in the other issues it deals with.

For example, if as many of writers have suggested, there is something inherently wrong with the Airbus control system, severe fatigue may in fact be profoundly important if it makes a bad system even more difficult to handle.

I'm not necessarily agreeing that the system in Airbuses is bad, but if there is a 'problem' did fatigue make it worse? Did it make the flight more vulnerable? What safety lessons do we learn from this?

The point is we are reading evidence of a report that has deliberately left out something which appears to have been important to the captain. What was important to the captain of AF447 is of necessity relevant to the inquiry.

Which brings us back to the need, with appropriate personal safeguards, for everything that happened in the cockpit be analysed and discussed in the final report, keeping in mind that the report's authors are not actually charged with writing for the public, but with fulfilling an ICAO obligation to to write a report for all aviation stakeholders including other regulatory authorities, to further air safety.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-03-17 14:47:02 and read 16884 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 77):
normal cruise flight is a few degrees nose above the horizon. In fact a heavy transport aircraft is rarely nose below the horizon. Most descents can be made at or slightly below zero pitch. Approaches are flown with positive pitch angles.

True.....I'm sure they all vary, but all fly better, a little "nose up". I remember doing weight & balance on the 727 and it flew better and was more efficient a little more tail heavy.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: threepoint
Posted 2013-03-17 14:49:48 and read 16854 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 66):
As a "professional pilot" you do not qualify as "the public" in this situation...The public, on the other hand, should not have access to recordings, and for us transcripts merely make interesting reading and serve no useful purpose.

Nonsense. I'm very much a part of the general public. You may not know but most aviation safety courses outside the airlines are delivered to pilots not by in-house instructors, but by private individuals who may be consultants, etc. Aviation safety is enhanced not only by those employed by an airline or regulatory body.

If you can think of a piece of software or hardware that improves aviation safety, it was most certainly designed and built by members of 'the general public'.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-17 14:55:09 and read 16826 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 79):
Why was CO charged and not EADS (as successor in interest to Aerospatiale) or BAe (as successor in interest to BAC)?

The head of the Aerospatiale Concorde division and the chief engineer were suspects in the criminal investigation, for negligence with over 70 instances involving Concorde tires.

The four people charged with manslaughter were the CO mechanic, the CO mechanic's supervisor, the head of the Aerospatiale Concorde division and a former French regulator (I assume his position was similar to an FAA inspector over the Concorde).

The investigation didn't just go after Continental.

The CO supervisor and the French officials were found not to be guilty of manslaughter, and the mechanic received a 15 month suspended sentence.

Continental as a company was found criminally responsible, however that was overturned on appeal. (CO was still found partially financially responsible - very similar to how the system works in the US.)

But again - this was a normal French criminal proceeding, not associated with the BEA investigation.

The Captain of AF296 - the A320 which settled into the forest in the low flyby back in 1988 was convicted and sentenced to 6 months in prison and 12 months probation in a similar criminal proceeding. When he appealed, his sentence was increased to 10 months in prison, and 10 months probation.

I do not know if he actually served time in prison.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-17 15:03:17 and read 16784 times.

Quoting art (Reply 72):
Bit off topic but I, too, am baffled that the crew did not see some instrument or display showing that the aircraft had its nose above the horizon.

In an fantastically detailed analysis of released FDR data, A.Net member mandala499 showed us how it appeared the PF was chasing a nose up pitch of approx 12 or 15 degrees (I forget the exact number.)

This is the nose up pitch for losing air speed data at low altitude, low speed such as soon after takeoff or on landing approach.

This is a memory item, as is the nose pitch angle of approx 3 degrees for loss of air speed data during cruise.

It appears he simply remembered and tried to apply the wrong number. One which stalled the aircraft. And he never understood why the plane was not reacting the way it was 'supposed to react'. He might have become fixated on trying to make that too high nose up angle work.

The other pilot in the cockpit does not appear to have provided any help, read any checklists, suggest any options, etc - at all during the fatal plunge.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-17 15:08:02 and read 16750 times.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 67):
How do you define "aviation professionals"

The poster I was addressing in my response identified himself as a professional pilot and as teaching a CRM course. That was easy. You are correct in implying that other situations could be more difficult.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 67):
where would you draw the line between those who can get access, and those who can't?

For CVR recordings, on a case-by-case basis. For transcripts, the easiest way for people who have a legitimate professional need for access to get access is for the transcripts (appropriately redacted) to be included in official investigation reports, which currently is what happens. I have no problem with that. It is the attitude that the public needs to have this information and that investigators are committing some fraud on the public when they excise material they conclude, in their official capacities, is not relevant to the investigation that concerns me.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 67):
Would a pilot who wants access need to send copies of his license to the safety board who completed the investigation?

To get access to recordings or non-redacted transcripts that were not the versions in the official reports he (or anyone else) should have to make a very good case and submit quite a bit of paper work.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Azure
Posted 2013-03-17 15:09:58 and read 16746 times.

I am struck by a number of comments that seek to establish a conspiracy in which the BEA would be the big boss.
I fail to understand what is the purpose of this conspiracy. To protect Air France? In order to leave Airbus solely responsible? But Airbus is much more an icon in France than Air France - or its economic weight is far more important, to be more realistic.
This theory does not hold water if I may say so.
The BEA did not mention fatigue as a decisive factor in the accident because its mission was to establish the technical reasons and/or the breaches of the regulations which have led to the accident. The BEA should have mentioned this fatigue if it came from some staff mismanagement by Air France, but here it is the pilots private life which is at stake.
Furthermore the BEA did not exempt the pilots from any liability in the crash so far. As a matter of fact, when it released its report, the pilots' unions protested and so did the victims associations because both thought that the report was too favorable to AF and Airbus, by "overwhelming" the pilots. But in regard of the law, AF remains responsible for its pilots even if the cause of their fatigue is to be found in their private life.
The least that can be said about AF in this tragedy is that it did not spare any effort and spent hundreds million of Euros to find the voice recorders of flight 447 in the depth of the Atlantic Ocean. I am not sure that many airlines in the world would have gone so far.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airmagnac
Posted 2013-03-17 15:24:39 and read 16655 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 80):
keeping in mind that the report's authors are not actually charged with writing for the public, but with fulfilling an ICAO obligation to to write a report for all aviation stakeholders including other regulatory authorities, to further air safety.

And yet your complaint is based on the fact that this single sentence was not disclosed to the public. Many countries appointed observers to the investigation, all reports were sent out to stakeholders before official publication to get feedback and comments. Do you have any evidence that this recorded sentence was withheld from the observers and stakeholders ? Do you have any evidence that there was disagreement on the following extract of the final report ?

Quote:

The CVR recording does, however, make it possible to show that the crew showed no
signs of objective fatigue, as the following elements indicate:
The level of activity and implication of the augmented crew in the first part of
the flight, with the Captain and the copilot seated in the right seat, then in the
second part of the flight with the two copilots, are in accordance with what is
expected from a crew in the cruise phase. No signs of drowsiness or sleepiness
are noticeable;

Do you have any evidence that the BEA failed to "fulfill an ICAO obligation to write a report for all aviation stakeholders including other regulatory authorities, to further air safety", which as you say yourself, is a serious accusation ?

If not, then we're back to the question of whether or not all information should be made public, to which I repeat my opinion : what's the point ?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-17 15:29:55 and read 16637 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 83):
The head of the Aerospatiale Concorde division and the chief engineer were suspects in the criminal investigation, for negligence with over 70 instances involving Concorde tires.

The four people charged with manslaughter were the CO mechanic, the CO mechanic's supervisor, the head of the Aerospatiale Concorde division and a former French regulator (I assume his position was similar to an FAA inspector over the Concorde).

All correct as far as I know. My point was that Aerospatiale/EADS (corporate) were neither investigated nor charged when it was obvious that there were design issues. Otherwise, Henri Perrier and, apparently, Jacques Herubel would not have been charged. Why is that?

Do you see why it sets off some alarm bells when arguably the most nationalistic legal system in the G-20 charges the US company whose employees it charges but not the French company whose employees it also charges?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airmagnac
Posted 2013-03-17 15:35:22 and read 16612 times.

I have very little legal knowledge, so just out of curiosity, what makes you say the the French have

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 88):
arguably the most nationalistic legal system in the G-20

?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-17 15:39:10 and read 16610 times.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 89):
I have very little legal knowledge, so just out of curiosity, what makes you say the the French have

It's a good question. Generally, French law is much more protective of French nationals (as opposed to nationals of other countries) than other civil law systems.

I don't know there's a concrete answer to why that is so in one place, so it might be easiest to give an example. As of four or five years ago, France was the only developed country where a court had adjudicatory jurisdiction if the plaintiff was a French citizen but neither the parties nor the action had any other connection to France. I think that portion of the Civil Code may have changed recently, but it's a good, fairly recent example.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-17 15:48:17 and read 16583 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 79):
Why was CO charged and not EADS (as successor in interest to Aerospatiale) or BAe (as successor in interest to BAC)?

You remember wrong. Henri Perrier, The Concorde "father" and his assistant Herubel have been condemned for negligence leading to involontary manslaughte rand, as a matter of fact, EADS was condemned for quite a lot more than Continental.
In the appellate court, both Continental employees were relaxed.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 79):
I'm certainly not willing to concede that there is never relevant information outside the last five minutes.

So, may I suggest you take a read of the whole transcript as there are quite a few other instances. The last five minutes have just been an example I took to illustrate my point, the rest of the transcript has quite a lot more. That, basically because I don't want us to discuss principles without proper intimacy with the subject.
Isn't it one of the basic tenets of your profession ?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: OzGlobal
Posted 2013-03-17 15:59:56 and read 16515 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 88):
Do you see why it sets off some alarm bells when arguably the most nationalistic legal system in the G-20 charges the US company whose employees it charges but not the French company whose employees it also charges?

You're kidding, right? The US is notorious in placing itself and its citizens outside international and extra-national law. It is alone in unique in the non-recognition of international tribunals and courts accepted by ALL developed nations: International Court of Justice, Courts of Human Rights, etc. For this reason it is often characterised as a pariah state in these contexts.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-17 16:11:43 and read 16455 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 88):
when it was obvious that there were design issues.

While design issues might possibly have been apparent, the BEA report found the primary active element of cause was the improper unauthorized repair on the CO DC-10 which left the piece of metal on the runway.

I don't like that view, but I understand how they could come to that conclusion. And they probably know more about accident investigation and the aircraft than I do.

The 'obvious design issues' were more in the line of why wasn't something done to minimize the possibility of this happening before.

Where the criminal probe was focuses on 'what was different which caused this tyre burst to be a fatal crash'

Much as a US grand jury looks at what caused the loss of life, rather than what could have been done on the broader scale to prevent a loss of life from becoming possible.

I really don't see a difference in how the French system operated in this case and how the US criminal justice system works the times I've been on a grand jury, other than the fact that the French system allows a corporation to be held criminally responsible, where we could not do that in the US.

Continental's criminal responsibility, which was overturned by the French appeals court, was improperly supervising the employee, ensuring there was a system in place to make sure such an action by a single employee could not happen.

Obviously the French appeals courts found that Continental could not be held to a criminal negligent standard in this case.

In the US we would not even be able to ask that question.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-17 16:33:20 and read 16401 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 91):
as a matter of fact, EADS was condemned for quite a lot more than Continental.

Do you have a source for EADS being charged? For instance, the BBC's writeup says this:

Quote:
Air France Concorde trails fire from its engine (2000). The crash occurred shortly after take-off from Charles de Gaulle airport. US airline Continental and five people will stand trial over the 2000 Concorde crash near Paris which killed 113 people, French judicial officials say.


The BBC's pre-charges article says this:


Quote:
A French prosecutor has asked judges to bring manslaughter charges against US airline Continental over the crash of an Air France Concorde in 2000.

The prosecutor also recommended similar charges against two Continental employees and two French officials.
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 92):
You're kidding, right? The US is notorious in placing itself and its citizens outside international and extra-national law. It is alone in unique in the non-recognition of international tribunals and courts accepted by ALL developed nations: International Court of Justice, Courts of Human Rights, etc. For this reason it is often characterised as a pariah state in these contexts.

Rejection of international law--where the US is pretty much in a league of its own--is different from a legal system that protects citizens at the expense of aliens. It's not like the US says that the ICJ does not apply to its own citizens but that it applies to aliens in identical situations.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-17 17:10:14 and read 16298 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 94):
Do you have a source for EADS being charged?
"Aucune faute pénale n’a, en revanche, été retenue contre trois cadres de l’aéronautique français, dont Henri Perrier, considéré comme le père du supersonique français. Le parquet avait requis 24 mois de prison avec sursis à son encontre. Le constructeur du Concorde - aujourd’hui EADS - devra cependant s’acquitter de 30 % des dommages et intérêts dûs aux victimes, après avoir été reconnu responsable de négligences au civil."
In here

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 94):
Rejection of international law--where the US is pretty much in a league of its own--is different from a legal system that protects citizens at the expense of aliens. It's not like the US says that the ICJ does not apply to its own citizens but that it applies to aliens in identical situations.

I call that splitting legal hairs.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-17 17:20:52 and read 16246 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 95):
Le constructeur du Concorde - aujourd’hui EADS - devra cependant s’acquitter de 30 % des dommages et intérêts dûs aux victimes, après avoir été reconnu responsable de négligences au civil."

Civil negligence and money damages, no? Quite a bit different from criminal charges.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 95):
I call that splitting legal hairs.

Maybe, but it's an important distinction.

How would you feel if you were in a car wreck in France with an American, he sued you in America and an American court entered judgment against you? Until recently, the opposite of that was permitted in France (and it may still be).

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-17 17:32:59 and read 16230 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 96):
the opposite of that was permitted in France (and it may still be).

I have no idea, and I haven't been awre of that fact.KL I guess is that unless we have comparable laws and penalties, these anomalies will remain, like the case of extradition : we do not extradict criminals who would risk a death penalty in the countrry which asks for them. Simple, and IMHO very correct.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 96):
Civil negligence and money damages, no? Quite a bit different from criminal charges.

The public ministry ( I believe the equivalent of your district attorney) asked for a criminal charge of manslaughterr and 24 months suspended jail sentence against Perrier and his assistant, which was in fact a heavier penalty than for the Continental employees. That the court dismissed the criminal charges was its privilege.
Wasn't that exactly what happened to OJ Simpson ?

But aren't we way off topic ?

[Edited 2013-03-17 17:34:56]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-17 18:00:06 and read 16147 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 93):
The 'obvious design issues' were more in the line of why wasn't something done to minimize the possibility of this happening before.

Sorry . I was involved somewhere else.
The design issues came as a complete surprise to all concerned : the wing skin and the fuel tank were punture-proof from rubber / stone / metal parts at the airplane's takeoff speeds. The tanks were not punctured ,actually, but the big tire piece hitting the bottom of the wing provoked a shockwave that spread in the fuel and the back of the tank seal which then brooke open, causing the massive leak that got lit by the afterburner...(to this day, the British AAIB , in spite of all the testing done, doesn't acknowledge the "shockwave theory" as absolute proof ). No one had any notion of such destructive phenomenon. It was , as a matter of fact, the French Air Force enginneers who had experience of such destruction due to erxplosives that initially came with the explanation. Nobody, though, could come out with another explanation.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 83):
The Captain of AF296 - the A320 which settled into the forest in the low flyby back in 1988 was convicted and sentenced to 6 months in prison and 12 months probation in a similar criminal proceeding. When he appealed, his sentence was increased to 10 months in prison, and 10 months probation.
I do not know if he actually served time in prison.

He did.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-17 18:13:38 and read 16096 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 97):
But aren't we way off topic ?

The question was, I think, why some don't take everything BEA says as gospel truth, and it seems to me that this is all related.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 97):
The public ministry ( I believe the equivalent of your district attorney) asked for a criminal charge of manslaughterr and 24 months suspended jail sentence against Perrier and his assistant, which was in fact a heavier penalty than for the Continental employees.

Charging the individual and charging the company are two different things. The employees were treated fairly similarly, but Continental (itself) was charged and EADS (itself) was not (nor was BAe).

Quoting Pihero (Reply 98):
The tanks were not punctured ,actually, but the big tire piece hitting the bottom of the wing provoked a shockwave that spread in the fuel and the back of the tank seal which then brooke open, causing the massive leak that got lit by the afterburner...(to this day, the British AAIB , in spite of all the testing done, doesn't acknowledge the "shockwave theory" as absolute proof ). No one had any notion of such destructive phenomenon. It was , as a matter of fact, the French Air Force enginneers who had experience of such destruction due to erxplosives that initially came with the explanation. Nobody, though, could come out with another explanation.

Are you saying that a catastrophic tire failure during the takeoff roll (regardless of cause) was not an anticipated failure mode? That's shocking if true.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-17 18:38:00 and read 16059 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 99):
Are you saying that a catastrophic tire failure during the takeoff roll (regardless of cause) was not an anticipated failure mode? That's shocking if true.

Sorry. I tried to have a nice chat with you., but unfortunately I'm just an airline pilot and we do not have a subject to talk about on equal terms.
So let's leave it at that, shall we ?
Regards

[Edited 2013-03-17 18:39:31]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-17 18:39:41 and read 16032 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 100):
Sorry. I tried to have a nice chat with you., but unfortunately I'm just an airline pilot and we do not have a subject to talk about on equal terms.

You've piqued my curiosity: what did the designers think would happen with a tire failure during the takeoff roll?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: AA87
Posted 2013-03-17 18:42:40 and read 16035 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 77):
In cloud or at night recovery would have been extremely difficult with the contradictory flight information they were working with.

All the technical back and forth by professionals on this board is fascinating, but that is the upshot. The most shocking and terrifying thing about this particular crash is how utterly understandable it is. It seems obvious that: 1) the debate on this tragedy will continue for years and 2) eventually, based on this incident, we will see subtle but significant changes in systems design in the cockpit and training for critical data loss in instrument conditions.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-17 20:30:07 and read 15777 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 99):
why some don't take everything BEA says as gospel truth, and it seems to me that this is all related.

No one is saying everything the BEA says is gospel truth. The other poster has made his opinion of some of the decisions reached by BEA investigators known many times.

You also need to add taking the NTSB as gospel truth, because the NTSB was substantially involved in both the Concorde and AF447 investigations. I'm not aware of any dissent from the NTSB investigators. And the NTSB is not shy about offering 'dissenting opinions' on factual matters.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 99):
Charging the individual and charging the company are two different things. The employees were treated fairly similarly, but Continental (itself) was charged and EADS (itself) was not (nor was BAe).

What does the French criminal legal system have to do with the BEA accident investigation process?

They are separate, just as separate as an NTSB investigation in the US and the occasional, though rare, state level criminal case brought against people in aircraft accidents.

The prosecutors sought stronger penalties against the French citizens than they did against the US citizens.

The prosecutors also sought to bring criminal charges against EADS/ Aerospatiale.

Just like our US legal system, at times the jury and judges do not agree with the charges brought by the prosecutors.

From what I've understood over the years, in France the 'sole' blame is not on Continental in the French public's mind. Air France, nor EADS/ Aerospatile, nor the French version of the FAA - escaped extensive public criticism for their responsibility in the crash.

On the civil side of the Concorde case - EADS was assessed 30% finiancial liability by the French courts - http://www.examiner.com/article/fren...ncorde-crash-continental-to-appeal - though I do not know if that was appealed.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-17 21:43:20 and read 15643 times.

Quoting AA87 (Reply 102):
eventually, based on this incident, we will see subtle but significant changes in systems design in the cockpit and training for critical data loss in instrument conditions.

I hope that one simple (and not overly subtle) change is made soon. This accident was basically caused by one simple fact - that the PF hauled his sidestick back right at the beginning, and kept it there. And, according to the transcript, he went ON pulling it back even after the more senior pilot had taken control. But neither the senior pilot or the captain could see what he was doing; and the sidesticks aren't linked the way conventional yokes (and sticks in smaller aeroplanes) have always been linked in the past. I hope that Airbus learns that lesson from this episode, and takes urgent steps to link them as soon as possible.

[Edited 2013-03-17 21:44:58]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-18 00:28:03 and read 15428 times.

NAV20

Stand at the back of an A330 cockpit. You can see where both side stick controllers are.

This is why I suspect the fatigue reference alleged to have been made by the captain would assume considerable even report changing importance. If the man was whacked out of his mind with fatigue, and the two first officers weren't talking to each other, or enough, we have a safety of flight issue of direct relevance to this tragic sequence of events.

We would also have a terrible example of an issue that bedevils the industry.

OK, it's only one line. But it could be a very important one line.

And why, why, why, would it be left out of the report if not to deflect adverse implications for Air France.

This is why, personal words of anguish omitted, we need-the-full-by-the-second CVR transcript.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-18 02:29:19 and read 15167 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 104):
This accident was basically caused by one simple fact - that the PF hauled his sidestick back right at the beginning, and kept it there.

Seriously? After how many threads on the subject? Please read the report.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 104):
But neither the senior pilot or the captain could see what he was doing

Again, please read the report.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-18 05:08:13 and read 14857 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 76):
Outside of France, accident investigation generally does not lead to criminal charges.

Actually, it does (or can) in most civil law jurisdictions - Spain, Italy, Germany, South America, etc. For example, Williams F1 management were charged after the death of Ayrton Senna at the San Marino Grand Prix. It's a function of the civilian system where investigative hearings are conducted by a juge d'instruction, and is not peculiar to France.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-18 06:12:26 and read 14706 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 101):
what did the designers think would happen with a tire failure during the takeoff roll?

It was not simply "a tyre failure". After several years of asking, many of us are still waiting for evidence that other types running over a titanium "knife-blade" and being instantaneously sliced open at high speed would not be at risk of a serious incident - and that evidence can't begin with "I would imagine that...". It hadn't happened to any type before and it hasn't happened since. Furthermore, tyre failures have led to fatalities on other types before.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-18 06:20:45 and read 14661 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 99):
Are you saying that a catastrophic tire failure during the takeoff roll (regardless of cause) was not an anticipated failure mode? That's shocking if true.

He did not say that.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 98):
The design issues came as a complete surprise to all concerned

The tanks possibly being punctured by a tire failure during takeoff or landing roll were a consideration. That is why the Concorde was retrofitted to hopefully prevent puncture.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 98):
the wing skin and the fuel tank were punture-proof from rubber / stone / metal parts at the airplane's takeoff speeds.

We all assummed that the tanks were broken and the flames we saw on the pictures and video were from holes in the fuel tanks.

The investigation showed that was simply not true.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 98):
The tanks were not punctured ,actually, but the big tire piece hitting the bottom of the wing provoked a shockwave that spread in the fuel and the back of the tank seal which then brooke open,

The bulkhead of the fuel tank failed due to the shockwave.

This had never previously happened despite the several incidents of puncture of a Concorde fuel tank.

The failure of the seal/ bulkhead resulted in a massive fuel spill, never seen before, or even considered possible previously.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: AirlineCritic
Posted 2013-03-18 09:02:59 and read 14389 times.

This thread reminds of the old joke about someone wishing to die like his grandfather, peacefully in his sleep, and not screaming in terror, like his passengers.   

But back to the topic. I think this thread would be better off with the conspiracy theories about hiding information moved elsewhere, or not discussed at all. The question of what information should be revealed from accidents is a good question, but confuses the AF 447 story. And I would not trust a vague statement in a newspaper. As noted, it could mean multiple things, be an exaggeration, etc. Not even the BEA knows the full story, probably. The pilots and their close ones from the same trip are all dead.

So this leaves me with: a captain that had multiple problems making it hard for him to solve a bad situation. Personal issues with the other pilots. A worst possible moment to be awakened. Possible fatigue. Non-adherence to CRM, by him and others in the cockpit.

And the reason for doing crash investigations is not that we'd find out everything about how the event unfolded. We do them to prevent them from happening again. There are plenty of learnings from this one, the big ones for me are on the human side, what can we do to ensure crews fit together at a personality level, teaching and practising this and other important procedures, CRM, etc.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-18 09:32:56 and read 14255 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 105):
If the man was whacked out of his mind with fatigue

Thank you. You have supplied a perfect example for those of us who find quite ridiculous all this speculation about conspiracies, the BEA covering for AF, etc. that is based on a few words that weren't included in the official transcript. Short on sleep has become whacked out of his mind. That's the way these things always progress. Wait a while longer. He will have become completely incoherent.  

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-18 10:08:36 and read 14166 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 103):
nor the French version of the FAA

If anything, BEA is most culplable because . . .

Quoting David L (Reply 108):
After several years of asking, many of us are still waiting for evidence that other types running over a titanium "knife-blade" and being instantaneously sliced open at high speed would not be at risk of a serious incident - and that evidence can't begin with "I would imagine that...". It hadn't happened to any type before and it hasn't happened since. Furthermore, tyre failures have led to fatalities on other types before.

AFAIK the 20 year history of pleas from NTSB to do something about protection from tire debris is unique to Concorde too, no? The design choices that drastically increased takeoff speeds were certainly unique to Concorde.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 107):
Actually, it does (or can) in most civil law jurisdictions - Spain, Italy, Germany, South America, etc. For example, Williams F1 management were charged after the death of Ayrton Senna at the San Marino Grand Prix. It's a function of the civilian system where investigative hearings are conducted by a juge d'instruction, and is not peculiar to France.

You are correct, and I should have worded my post more artfully. The charges against a non-involved, foreign airline are unique to this crash. They are, for many who do not understand civil law systems, the source of a lot of the unhappiness about the Concorde crash.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-18 10:30:27 and read 14088 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 106):
Please read the report.

        

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 105):
And why, why, why, would it be left out of the report if not to deflect adverse implications for Air France.

Perhaps because the BEA did, in fact, consider fatigue and human factors in extraordinary detail:

"The CVR recording does, however, make it possible to show that the crew showed no signs of objective fatigue, as the following elements indicate:

- The level of activity and implication of the augmented crew in the first part of the flight, with the Captain and the copilot seated in the right seat, then in the second part of the flight with the two copilots, are in accordance with what is
expected from a crew in the cruise phase. No signs of drowsiness or sleepiness are noticeable;

- At 0 h 58 min 07, the Captain was concerned with the state of fatigue of the copilot in the right seat. («try maybe to sleep twenty minutes when he comes back or before if you want ») who answered that he didn’t want to sleep;

- Questioned on his return to the cockpit, the copilot who took the Captain’s place
answered that he had “dozed”."

If the BEA had wanted to "deflect adverse implications for Air France", they would surely have also deleted those parts of the CVR, which are more "damaging" than the captain's off-hand remark to a flight deck visitor.

By the way, BEA also convened a Human Factors Working Group composed of independent pilots, ergonomics experts, and psychologists / psychiatrists. Their work features very extensively in section 1.16.8 of the Final Report, and includes the psychometric impacts of fatigue, anxiety, and surprise.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 70):
How does "last night" become the actual day of flying? Or is there something lost in translation?

From this:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 69):
" ...cette nuit, je n'ai pas assez dormi . Une heure, c'était pas assez tout à l'heure "

Literally: "Last night I didn't get enough sleep. One hour, a little while ago (tout à l'heure), wasn't enough". "Tout à l'heure" means the very recent past or the near future (soon) - it does not refer to the night before.

The title of this thread is therefore extremely misleading. If it were accurate, it would say "Captain of AF447 Had an Hours Sleep Just Before the Flight", which is quite different.

The previous AF447 threads were replete with posters quoting the English translation of the CVR and drawing conclusions that weren't supported by what the crew actually said in French.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-18 10:48:27 and read 14044 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 112):
AFAIK the 20 year history of pleas from NTSB to do something about protection from tire debris is unique to Concorde too, no? The design choices that drastically increased takeoff speeds were certainly unique to Concorde.

So, the wait for evidence continues, then. Once again, it was not simply a tyre failure of the type that had ever happened before or could be reasonably expected to happen. The way the tyre exploded and slammed a 2-metre "carcass" into the underside of the wing at very high speed had a lot to do with being sliced by a titanium "knife-blade". Do you know what would happen to other types in the same circumstances?

While there were some earlier cases of tyre failures causing small punctures to the fuel tanks, there had been none for a considerable time before Gonesse, so the notion that nothing had been done about it doesn't seem to fit the data. And, again, while rare, there have been fatalities due to tyre failures in other types.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 113):
Perhaps because the BEA did, in fact, consider fatigue and human factors in extraordinary detail:

Yes, but, apart from that...   

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-18 11:16:57 and read 13984 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 114):
The way the tyre exploded and slammed a 2-metre "carcass" into the underside of the wing at very high speed had a lot to do with being sliced by a titanium "knife-blade". Do you know what would happen to other types in the same circumstances?

No, but it would surely be different. Remember that Concorde's takeoff speed was around 400 kilometers per hour, much higher than other types (30 percent or so higher than the 777 takeoff speed, for instance). The amount of energy with which the tire ("carcass") struck the aircraft could not, I don't think, happen with other types. With everything else equal, a 30 percent speed increase increases kinetic energy by 69 percent.

[Edited 2013-03-18 11:59:42]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-18 11:51:53 and read 13873 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 114):
Do you know what would happen to other types in the same circumstances?
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 115):
The amount of energy with which the tire ("carcass") struck the aircraft could not, I don't think, happen with other types.

Tire carcass can be extremely high energy impacts. Even the 'alligators' we see in the roadways of the US.

Just two weeks ago a friend of mine had eight feet of floor, electrical wiring, plumbing and cabinet work ripped out from the bottom of his RV when a tire failed. Initial estimates are $20,000+ to repair the damage.

The highway tires can rip holes in the bottom of cargo trailers, dent and cause leaks in tanker trucks.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-18 12:14:15 and read 13807 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 115):
could not, I don't think, happen with other types

Sorry but I put that in the same category as "I would imagine that...".  

It's easy to say what one thinks might happen when it had never happened to any type before, including Concorde, it has never happened since and the chances of it happening again are fairly low. If the tank had simply been punctured then you could probably quantify the effects of the tyre speed but in this case we're talking about a shock-wave rupturing the tank from within. Exactly how the tyre carcass hit and what shock-waves resulted made a big difference and that's a lot more complex.

There is also the possibility that a Concorde might have experienced similar circumstances 100 times and that might have been the only one that turned out as it did. We will never know.

The one and only time it happened, it happened to a Concorde. It happened to a Concorde because it took off shortly after the titanium part had been dropped on the runway. That's pretty much all that seems to be known about how the same circumstances could affect any type.

In any case, what about the fatalities due to tyre bursts on other types? Surely they couldn't happen, either? I'm not accusing you of such a thing but many people have claimed here that "a tyre burst should not bring an aircraft down". And yet, rare though it is...

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: captainmeeerkat
Posted 2013-03-18 12:27:04 and read 13762 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 113):
Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 70):
How does "last night" become the actual day of flying? Or is there something lost in translation?

From this:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 69):
" ...cette nuit, je n'ai pas assez dormi . Une heure, c'était pas assez tout à l'heure "

Literally: "Last night I didn't get enough sleep. One hour, a little while ago (tout à l'heure), wasn't enough". "Tout à l'heure" means the very recent past or the near future (soon) - it does not refer to the night before.

The title of this thread is therefore extremely misleading. If it were accurate, it would say "Captain of AF447 Had an Hours Sleep Just Before the Flight", which is quite different.

The previous AF447 threads were replete with posters quoting the English translation of the CVR and drawing conclusions that weren't supported by what the crew actually said in French.

Thank you, I had a feeling that the essence of this idiotic headline was lost in this translation somewhere.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-18 12:29:24 and read 13751 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 112):
The charges against a non-involved, foreign airline are unique to this crash. They are, for many who do not understand civil law systems, the source of a lot of the unhappiness about the Concorde crash.

I think that translating the charge as "manslaughter" also contributed to the unhappiness. The actual provision in the Code pénal is more akin to "criminal negligence causing death" in Anglo-American law.

Such charges are not uncommon in common law jurisdictions - for example the navigation officer on the Queen of the North (B.C. Ferries) is currently on trial for criminal negligence causing death resulting from the ship running aground and sinking. There are multiple examples of locomotive drivers and bus drivers who've faced similar charges.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-18 12:34:23 and read 13724 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 117):
Sorry but I put that in the same category as "I would imagine that...".

That's fair, but unlike the post-strike effects, we ought to be able to prove whether a burst tyre can acquire X kinetic energy with which to strike the aircraft on other aircraft that themselves have much less speed on takeoff.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 119):
Such charges are not uncommon in common law jurisdictions - for example the navigation officer on the Queen of the North (B.C. Ferries) is currently on trial for criminal negligence causing death resulting from the ship running aground and sinking. There are multiple examples of locomotive drivers and bus drivers who've faced similar charges.

  

They also happen in the States. Wasn't the captain of the passenger ferry that struck the dock in New York a few years ago criminally charged?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-18 13:18:02 and read 13618 times.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 118):
Thank you, I had a feeling that the essence of this idiotic headline was lost in this translation somewhere.

To be fair to ManuCH (OP), the English translation of the article he referred to conveniently left out "tout à l'heure" - which completely changes what the captain said. Ben Sandilands blog does the same.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-18 13:28:06 and read 13582 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 120):
but unlike the post-strike effects

But... the post-strike effects are what caused the fuel tank to rupture, not just the kinetic energy in the initial impact. Unless it can be shown that, no matter how the internal shock waves interact and no matter what size or shape the tyre carcass from, say, a fully loaded 747 just before take-off, it cannot cause a fuel tank to rupture, we're back to square one.

If we're back to square one, I'd have to ask if it's reasonable for manufacturers to be expected to consider every possible internal shock-wave pattern when designing tyres, wings and fuel tanks - especially for a situation that had never happened before, has never happened since and is probably still considered to be highly unlikely? Depending on the size and shape of the tank, the amount of fuel within, the size and shape of the tyre carcass and precisely how the tyre carcass impacts, you might get less destructive shock-wave patterns from a higher energy impact. I just haven't seen anything to suggest that the manufacturers of Concorde, in particular, should have preempted those conditions. The only reason it's now known to be possible is that it happened.

All this on top of the fact that "more conventional" tyre failures have occasionally lead to fatalities on other types.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-18 14:20:32 and read 13483 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 121):
To be fair to ManuCH (OP), the English translation of the article he referred to conveniently left out "tout à l'heure" - which completely changes what the captain said

     

Which, once again should tell us to be more careful with newspaper reporting vs official reports.

There has been quite a lot of accusations cast at Air France and the BEA (for one poster, it reads as if France and Australia - on a similar subject of accident investigation - are fascist provinces of Northern Korea ).
Interestingly enough, the participants to the investigation- among whom the NTSB- are never mentioned, nor are the observers.

I'd like to quote from the BEA final report, if I may :

1/ the frame of the investigation :

... in accordance with Annex 13 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation and to the French
Civil Aviation Code (Book VII), the BEA, as Investigation Authority of the State of Registry of the aeroplane, instituted a safety investigation and a team was formed to conduct it


This is clear : the BEA, as the investigation authority pf the sovereign state of France, by virtue of the State of registry of the aircraft had respopnsibility over the investigation.

2/- Further frame of the investigation :

..."In accordance with the provisions of Annex 13, Brazilian, American, British, German and Senegalese accredited representatives were associated with the investigation as the State of the engine manufacturer (NTSB) and because they were able to supply essential information to the investigation (CENIPA, ANAC) or because they provided assistance in the sea search phases (AAIB, BFU)"

So, the NTSB and the AAIB were parties to the investigation, like other official authorities.

3/- the observers :

..."The following countries also nominated observers as some of their citizens were among the victims:
ˆ China,
ˆ Hungary,
ˆ Ireland,
ˆ Italy,
ˆ Korea,
ˆ Lebanon,
ˆ Morocco,
ˆ Norway,
ˆ Russia,
ˆ Switzerland."


All the above bring the conspiracy to a truly international level, doesn't it ?
But, of course, what happened then ? Did France revert to their own usual sneaky, stealthy behaviour ?
See :

4/- Publication of the final report : it happened after July 2011 :

..."it was clear that it was necessary to understand the pilots’ behaviour more profoundly. It was thus decided to set up a new working group dedicated to Human Factors, the group being made up of pilots from EASA and the DGAC, a specialist in cognitive sciences, a doctor and BEA investigators.
This working group worked in close liaison with the “Operations” and “Systems and Equipment” groups. Its work formed the basis of the new elements in the investigation that were included in the Draft Final Report, which was sent for consultation to the participants in the investigation, in accordance with the provisions of Annex 13 and the European Regulation on investigations and the prevention of aviation accidents and incidents, in force since October 2010.
Integration of the comments received led to the drafting, then the publication, of the Final Report of the Safety Investigation, on 5 July 2012.
"


(stresses are mine).

Now for the articles in question :
The Le Point reporter's attention was brought to a sentence of the Judicial Expert's report that has been leaked to a well-known conspiracy group. The report is a 507 page document without its annexes and notes.
To only choose, out of context and with an opinionated interpretation a quarter of a line in such a big document can only be called "selective quoting".
I posit that it is more dangerous to our moral society than any conspiracy theory could ever be... Problem is : the same people use them both.

Regards

[Edited 2013-03-18 14:22:43]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: art
Posted 2013-03-18 14:21:36 and read 13481 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 121):
To be fair to ManuCH (OP), the English translation of the article he referred to conveniently left out "tout à l'heure" - which completely changes what the captain said.

It does - the captain said two things - he did not get enough sleep the previous night (no mention of how many hours he did sleep); he had slept for an hour earlier (on the day of the flight) but it was not enough. So the captain had 1 hour of sleep on the day of the flight + however many hours he slept the previous night.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-18 15:03:27 and read 13371 times.

Quoting art (Reply 124):
It does - the captain said two things - he did not get enough sleep the previous night (no mention of how many hours he did sleep); he had slept for an hour earlier (on the day of the flight) but it was not enough. So the captain had 1 hour of sleep on the day of the flight however many hours he slept the previous night.

Not to mention that it's completely devoid of context. For example, suppose that his friend (who was on the flight - that's also been the topic of a thread suggesting that he was humping her in the crew rest while he should have been resting!) stuck her head into the flight deck and asked "Are we still going out for lunch / driving to Lyons / whatever / when we get to Paris?" Then, "I didn't get enough sleep last night" takes on a totally different meaning than anything to do with being fatigued for the flight.

I also note that the Le Point article states "il n'y avait pas eu d'enquête sur l'activité et le repos pris par les pilotes, accompagnés par leurs épouses ou compagnes, lors de l'escale de Rio". The NY Daily News is pure tabloid sensationalism - "they were also feeling groggy after spending the night in Rio with their wives and girlfriends".

However, the BEA report explicitly states that it did investigate, but was unable to obtain reliable information; presumably, the investigation by the "expert judiciaire" fared no better, as it does not contain any information on what the crew did in Rio.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-18 16:52:34 and read 13212 times.

Let me go back to the core issue, which isn't the Concorde tragedy, or the laws of France.

The core issue is the omission of sections of the CVR.

The full CVR, hopefully minus sensitive matters will clearly come out, one way or another.

Omission brings suspicion. If an authority or politician or corporate leader omits details which might otherwise better inform the curious or those who are affected by a matter at hand, suspicion will arise.

In an accident investigation which purports to make a finding on fatigue, yet deliberately redacts a reference to fatigue, it is important to ask why, and 'Trust me we are the BEA' isn't good enough.

Similarly, in assessing CRM issues, it is important to know what the crew said and how they interacted. The ATSB report into the notorious phone-texting incident involving a Jetstar A321 that descended below 400 feet over Singapore airport in an improperly configured and unstable state didn't published the CVR, but it did nevertheless point out that the captain said nothing to the first officer for almost the last three minutes of the botched approach, and when he told the FO to land it anyway the FO intervened and flew a go-around, and just in time.

What was, or wasn't said in the cockpit is thus crucial to understanding the CRM situation.

The BEA narrative does set up the situation in the cockpit with both tact and considerable detail at the outset, then leaves it hanging in the air, although AF did respond with alacrity to the matter of the conduct or form of a hand over.

There is a broad issue here, which is disclosure. I agree with those on this page who have persuasively argued for sensitivity and respect for the dead. But older readers may recall that way back, I think in the 70s, the NTSB report into a Delta DC-9 crash in the US released almost the entire transcript in which the crew were having an animated conversation about politics during the final approach, which we hear being discussed over the top of audible warnings as to the outer marker and the status of the approach, ending in the sound of impact and break up causing heavy loss of life.

In the case of AF447 my role has been that of listening to and being persuaded by pilots who feel that the BEA report is incomplete, and the latest media article renewed that concern. The correct translation of the reference is important, and it doesn't change the position that a reference to fatigue was redacted. Why was it left out? Who benefited from it being left out?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-18 17:39:37 and read 13145 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 126):
didn't published the CVR, but it did nevertheless point out that the captain said nothing to the first officer for almost the last three minutes of the botched approach, and when he told the FO to land it anyway the FO intervened and flew a go-around, and just in time.

What was, or wasn't said in the cockpit is thus crucial to understanding the CRM situation.

Obviously. But, it seems, publishing a CVR transcript is not.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-18 18:45:43 and read 13040 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 122):
All this on top of the fact that "more conventional" tyre failures have occasionally lead to fatalities on other types.

. . . but not from the failure that we are talking about here (fuel tank rupture), or am I missing one?

Quoting David L (Reply 117):
The one and only time it happened, it happened to a Concorde. It happened to a Concorde because it took off shortly after the titanium part had been dropped on the runway. That's pretty much all that seems to be known about how the same circumstances could affect any type.

FOD on the runway, while unfortunate, is not all that uncommon--and while you are focusing on the word titanium, titanium is not a particularly hard or dense metal.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: dfambro
Posted 2013-03-18 19:08:12 and read 12990 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 78):
Basically the last five minutes haven't been edited at all :

Really? Do you know that for a fact?

Frankly, I had assumed they have sigificant redactions because there are significant gaps with no talking during pretty crucial moments. For example. 2:10:50 to 2:11:20. In that thirty second window, which begins 43 seconds after the first audible alarm, there is only one brief comment from the co-pilot in the right seat, and two brief comments from the co-pilot in the left seat. Then at 2:11:21 the co-pilot in the left seat appears to be responding to something, but there's nothing in the transcript for him to be responding to. Similarly, the Captain says almost nothing in his first 30+ seconds. It looks heavily redacted.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-18 19:27:31 and read 12955 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 126):
The core issue is the omission of sections of the CVR.

Had you read quite a few of the posts above, you'd have understood that the full transcript won't be for your use. The tribunal has it, the experts it appointed saw / heard it. There is absolutely no place for you to have it. Get used to that idea.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 126):
suspicion will arise.

Suspiscion arises from multiple areas. I suspect the people who leaked the experts' report to have an agenda. And I'm very serious. As you give a few examples, I haver one too, for you to reflect on : I suspect one very self-opinionated , self-righteous Australian senator to have destroyed the career and the reputation of some people who've done a lot more to Australia's safety cultrure than he ever did in his life.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 126):
What was, or wasn't said in the cockpit is thus crucial to understanding the CRM situation.

A great number of people on this forum have a very good understanding of the dynamics of that crew. The parts published in the reportsq are more than enough to make a very informed opinion, and for the authorities some very pointed safety recommendations.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 126):
The BEA narrative does set up the situation in the cockpit with both tact and considerable detail at the outset, then leaves it hanging in the air, although AF did respond with alacrity to the matter of the conduct or form of a hand over

Now we come to the beginning of your attempt at demolition of AF and the BEA . Unfortunately for you, the Air France Gen OPS manual mentioned the format of a handover briefing before the accident and the report says very clearly :

"... In his briefing, the PF mentioned the points listed by the Air France Operations Manual :
ˆ The presence of previous and future turbulence;
ˆ The fact that they were flying through clouds;
ˆ That they could not climb because of the higher temperature than expected and therefore a REC MAX “a little too low”;
ˆ The HF contact with the Atlantico centre and the logon failure with the Dakar centre;
ˆ The contact made with dispatch.
During this briefing the Captain recalled the Dakar HF frequencies when requested by the PF. Although he did not formally carry out the briefing himself, one can see that the objective of correct transmission of information to the relief pilot was reached."


So your above comment either denotes a gross un-understanding of one aspect of the technical issues of the flight or an attempt at blaming Air France.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 126):
the NTSB report into a Delta DC-9 crash in the US released almost the entire transcript

What was the real usefulness of releasing the transcript ? They could just have written : "the CVR shows that the flight deck crews were having a heated political argument during the landing phase and they disregarded both the management of the flight and the various warnings caused by increasing ground proximity" or words to that effect.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 126):
In the case of AF447 my role has been that of listening to and being persuaded by pilots who feel that the BEA report is incomplete, and the latest media article renewed that concern.

Your role seems to be listening to people we have no reference of ( which is strange as you claim the right of full disclosure but you leave us to trust sources we don't know anything about). Doesn't that sound to you as double standards ? And, of course you will protect your sources...   

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 126):
The correct translation of the reference is important, and it doesn't change the position that a reference to fatigue was redacted. Why was it left out? Who benefited from it being left out?

We are dealing here with FACTS, in which a remark made by someone to a guest in the flight deck could be interpreted in many ways ( was it an exaggeration ? Was it a precise appreciation of his sleep pattern ? Was it in jest ? )
The report, which deals with observable, undiscutable facts reveals, and I cite the whole paragraph :

"1.16.7 Aspects relating to fatigue

The professional timetable of the three crew members during the month that preceded the accident flight shows that the limitations on flight and duty times, as well as rest times, were in accordance with the provisions of European Regulation (EC) n°859/2008 of the European Commission (sub-section Q of Annex III).
The investigation was not able to determine exactly the activities of the flight crew members during the stopover in Rio, where the crew had arrived three days earlier. It was not possible to obtain data on their sleep during this stopover.
This lack of precise information on their activity during the stopover, in particular in relation to sleep, makes it impossible to evaluate the level of fatigue associated to the flight crew’s duty time.
The CVR recording does, however, make it possible to show that the crew showed no signs of objective fatigue, as the following elements indicate:
ˆ The level of activity and implication of the augmented crew in the first part of the flight, with the Captain and the copilot seated in the right seat, then in the second part of the flight with the two copilots, are in accordance with what is
expected from a crew in the cruise phase. No signs of drowsiness or sleepiness are noticeable;
ˆ At 0 h 58 min 07, the Captain was concerned with the state of fatigue of the copilot in the right seat. («try maybe to sleep twenty minutes when he comes back or before if you want ») who answered that he didn’t want to sleep;
ˆ Questioned on his return to the cockpit, the copilot who took the Captain’s place answered that he had “dozed”.

As someone who has used the crew rest area, I have never found it very comfortable, somehow claustrophobic and I have never achieved complete sleep (I don't really like to be away from the flight management) .

On this aspect, it is fair to cite the experts'report which adds as a factor the maximum fatigue associated with the low phase of the circadian cycle.

So, in reality,where is the conspiracy, where is the hiding facts that could hurt Air France or Airbus ?
You're on thin air... not a place safe from a stall, btw.

What is, in my opinion, the silliest aspect of the conspiracy theory is that it is the experts'report, a very official document written by sworn specialists ( therefore,according to the theorists, part of the conspiracy) that is used totally out of context to try and prove the partiality of the BEA document... which is the basis for their expertise.
Do they disagree with it in their conclusions ? No. They just mentioned that one activity prior to their entry to the ETOPS zone wasn't - in their words - very "dynamic". My opinion is that the captain's managerial method had more effect on that activity.


For those interested, this is a NASA brief on AF447 that illustrates the dynamics of the accident.
Of course, it is part of the conspiracy

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-18 19:50:05 and read 12931 times.

I have just found an article on a French newspaper and it is obvious that the reporter has used this forum and another well known site for some really dodgy reporting and some sentences are just about verbatim translations of the more sensationalistic writings of the posters on this thread.
Some parts of that article concern intimate aspects of the private lives of these dead crew members and to me, that's intolerable.

Consequently, I will no longer answer any question on this aspect of AF447.

Lawyers and conspiracy theorists have achieved a great victory for the freedom of the press: the dirtying of some dead professionals' social and family environment . I hope they are proud of themselves.

[Edited 2013-03-18 19:56:18]

[Edited 2013-03-18 19:58:37]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-18 20:30:19 and read 12839 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 105):
NAV20

Stand at the back of an A330 cockpit. You can see where both side stick controllers are.

Agree as far as it goes, BenSandilands - but the more senior pilot could not have seen his colleague's sidestick from his seat - nor could he have known that, even after he had taken control, his inputs were still being countermanded. And the captain, when he arrived, did not stand at the back either, he appears to have sat down immediately.

In fairness to the BEA, this article shows that they were perfectly frank about the situation - and 'pinned things down' somewhat by stressing the point that the initial flight crew continued to follow not the basic instruments (assuming they had enough of them functioning) but followed the Flight Director - even though, as the BEA pointed out, correct procedure in a case of 'unreliable air speed' would have been to switch the flight director off. And things were made much more confusing for the pilots by the fact that both the Flight Director and the stall warning were only operating intermittently.

"In a tense press conference held last Thursday at Le Bourget Airport in Paris BEA director Jean-Paul Troadec and his team pointed at human-machine interface issues that made the situation extremely confusing for the crew. All 228 occupants died when the aircraft, flying from Rio to Paris, crashed at night while negotiating a region with heavy thunderstorm activity. BEA had published an interim report in July 2011.

"A major new finding in the final report concerned the flight director, which normally displays symbology on the pilots’ primary flying displays that give guidance on control inputs to reach a desired steady-state flightpath. After the autopilot and autothrottle disengaged, as the flight control law switched from normal to alternate, the flight director’s crossbars disappeared. But they then reappeared several times. Every time they were visible, they prompted pitch-up inputs by the PF, investigators determined. It took them a long time to “rebuild” what the flight director displayed since this is not part of the data recorded by the flight data recorder.

"The BEA acknowledged that the PF might have followed flight director indications. This was not the right thing to do in a stall but it seems that the crew never realized that the aircraft was in a stall. Moreover, the successive disappearance and reappearance of the crossbars reinforced this false impression, the investigators suggested. For the crew, this could have suggested their information was valid.

"None of the pilots recognized that the flight director was changing from one mode to another because they were just too busy. The PF may have trusted the flight director so much that he was verbally agreeing to the other pilot’s pitch-down instructions, while still actually pitching up."


http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...wed-flight-director-pitch-commands

And here, for anyone who hasn't already seen it, is a (presumably full) transcript of the last few minutes on the CVR. Certainly seems to me highly likely that the underlying cause of the accident was lack of training and experience in 'hands-on' flying using the 'basic' instruments (especially in zero visibility, with no visible horizon), causing them to continue to rely on the flight director? Not helped by the stall warning only sounding intermittently?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rance-447s-cockpit/article4393626/

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: threepoint
Posted 2013-03-18 22:13:52 and read 12714 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 75):
Whether a dying pilot calls his mother or his wife should not be your concern and should not be made available to people who otherwise have no understanding whatsoever of the technical / human factors... aspects of the accident...And for that, one doesn't need expletives or expressions of religious faith... to be made public. They belong to the realm of privacy, or dare I say intimity.

Well if these exclamations of a personal nature aren't human factors, I don't know what are. I think to censor the transcript of an accident to exclude such utterances takes away from the state of mind that a crewmember may have been in, and indeed serves to render the pilot, I don't know...less human? People under stress (professionals or otherwise) react to that stress in different ways. One pilot may be systematically problem solving under duress, while an otherwise identical pilot may be calling to his maker, having given up his struggle.

Reading a transcript - profanities and all - coupled with a CVR offers great insight into the human factors within an accident, as we both acknowledge, but I maintain this insight should not be confined to the select few investigators assigned to a particular case. In the absence of information, the media and general public is too often forced to resort to speculation, which generally ends up being more damaging to a company's, pilot's or manufacturer's reputation anyway.

What we will hear and read when reviewing the so-called 'last words' is one or a blend of emotions: fright, panic, calm, resignation, determination, anger, frustration, disbelief and a host of others that illustrate that the crew is human. You don't have to be involved in aviation to understand the frames of mind of people in a dire situation. My opinion is that your position condescends to the majority of the general public who may not understand the levels of technical aeronautical detail that you do, but are denied the opportunity to learn, to understand and to apply those lessons to whatever it is that they do. Perhaps you forget that the teachings of human factors are by no means confined to flight crews. What we have learned as a result of high-profile airplane crashes makes people safer in all manner of transportation and industrial occupations. And sadly, many of those lessons have been embedded in the final seconds of the afflicted crew's lives.

One doesn't need to listen to CVR transcripts to satisfy one's ghoulish nature. There are plenty of freely-available internet sites devoted to such pursuits.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mandala499
Posted 2013-03-19 00:39:55 and read 12614 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 9):
I stand with the BEA and all the other organisms which participated in this investigation. And our CVR recordings are not for the ghouls who would seek some sick pleasure in listening to the last words of dead people.
Go look somewhere else, I'd say to them.

The funny thing, yes, I am pretty certain that the full CVR recordings would not reveal anything new other than more panic, mayhem etc... which puts a lot of emotional subjectivity to the case of AF447.
For those who think that the Captain lacking sleep is an important factor here, well, I do say to them, go look elsewhere! Rather irrelevant to this case to be honest. Just a quiet day in the media I guess.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 18):
What is the objective reason why the pilot unions are against making the CVR transcripts publicly available?

I give you the answer:

Quoting airproxx (Reply 13):
The true question should be; why is it so? Why such an important piece of investigation is now publicly revealed?
How come an institution of this importance like BEA made such a mistake?
The result? There's been a terrible buzz around the fact that, if the AF447 pilots were completely panicked on the last moments of the flight, maybe the crash was their own and very fault...!

and...

Quoting airproxx (Reply 13):
No I'll stop here, knowing that as soon as I can change my A320 type rating for anything-else-but-an-Airbus type rating, I'll go for it.

Contrary to AF Pilots Union point of view (as far as I know, similar to what Airproxx purported), the pilots screwed up... BUT, we must always look beyond and find out why they screwed up. Trying to deny that they screwed up, does not serve the purpose of safety because we can't get to the causal factors why they screwed up... which, if found, could actually absolve liability from the dead pilots as they were mere "products" of the causal factors.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 26):
I'vea lready seen enough imbeciles crowing on the revealed tapes in which someone cried his love for his mother. To me, that's sick and we will not allow it, whatever the self-righteous claims for reasons of improved safety... blah blah blah are. Just hypocrisy.

Revealing the CVR tapes, does funny things... as do revealing the full CVR transcripts. I've seen a case where leaking the full CVR tape in a case where clearly the crew revealed they were clueless in what they were doing (due to improper training), we had experts calling them heroes because of the wrong actions they did which led to the tragedy... no, it's not AF447, but another equally 'mysterious' case. So I agree... simply revealing the tapes or full transcript, is very counter productive.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 79):
I'm certainly not willing to concede that there is never relevant information outside the last five minutes.

That's the attorney within you talking. For the purpose of flight safety, one must go beyond the prima faciae evidence. Otherwise, we'd just simply slap pilot error to almost all of the accidents! That's counter productive is it not?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 101):
what did the designers think would happen with a tire failure during the takeoff roll?

They never expected FOD caused tire failure to have resulted in a bigger than anticipated slab of tires slamming the wings below the fuel tanks. Principle of Foreseeability applies. Just like no one anticipated ice particles in very low temp flight would clog the 777 fuel filters on the BA case in LHR.

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2013-03-19 01:10:23 and read 12569 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 131):
Consequently, I will no longer answer any question on this aspect of AF447.

As a quiet reader of the AF447-threads since the beginning I just wanted to thank you (and of course the other knowledgeable contributors) for some of the most educating threads on this site (at least to us non-professionals). And for your patience, responding to ever the same lazy questions and weird accusations that come up about every six months since then.

[Edited 2013-03-19 01:17:40]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mozart
Posted 2013-03-19 02:53:27 and read 12394 times.

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 135):
As a quiet reader of the AF447-threads since the beginning I just wanted to thank you (and of course the other knowledgeable contributors) for some of the most educating threads on this site (at least to us non-professionals). And for your patience, responding to ever the same lazy questions and weird accusations that come up about every six months since then.

As another quiet (because too incompetent to contribute) reader of this thread I also want to express my gratitude and respect for the high quality of some of the posts in this thread. Rare to have this on a.net. Thanks for the enrichment.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-19 03:56:54 and read 12313 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 128):
. . . but not from the failure that we are talking about here (fuel tank rupture), or am I missing one?

I think you're cherry-picking from my replies. I'd certainly be very wary of a legal system that can dismiss more predictable failures as "just one of those things" while coming down like a ton of bricks on an unprecedented and unpredicted failure. The effects of shock-waves within a fuel tank are a lot more complicated than just the kinetic energy of the impact.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 132):
but the more senior pilot could not have seen his colleague's sidestick from his seat - nor could he have known that, even after he had taken control, his inputs were still being countermanded.

After the countless opportunities you've had to learn a little about the systems you habitually criticise you still don't seem to know much about them. It would be easy to dismiss it and accept that you'll just never quite get it but it's not helpful to newer members of the forum who want to learn.

Take a look at the many A330 flight-deck photos in the A.net database. It is just wrong to say that one pilot cannot see what the other is doing with the side-stick.

If the Captain and the PNF did not know what the PF was doing with the side-stick, why did they keep telling him to stop doing it?

Dual-input results in aural and visual announcements. The PF clearly knew the PNF was manipulating the controls and (grudgingly) handed over control, albeit briefly.

The issue was not that neither pilot knew what the other was doing. The issue was that none of them had worked out what they should be doing.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 130):
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 134):

   As in all good conspiracy theories, in order to beef up the weight of one small element, many others have to be disregarded. Just because something isn't available to the general public, it doesn't mean other regulatory and safety organisations are being kept in the dark. When it comes to aviation safety, I hope we're still a long way from letting the internet decide.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-19 04:27:11 and read 12260 times.

To quote from that transcript, David L:-

Bonin:
We're still going down.
Robert:
We're pulling. ... What do you think about it, what do you think? What do we need to do?
Pilot:
There, I don't know. There, it's going down.
Bonin:
There you are. ... That's good, we should be wings level, no it won't (not)
Pilot:
The wings to flat horizon, the standby horizon.
Robert:
The horizon (second)... Speed?
Bonin:
Okay.
Robert:
You're climbing.
Synthetic voice
Stall. Stall. (noise continues)
Robert:
You're going down, down, down.
Pilot:
[Expletive.] (Going down.)
Bonin:
Am I going down now?
Robert:
Go down.
Pilot:
No you climb there.
Bonin:
I'm climbing, okay? So we're going down.
Pilot:
You're climbing.
Bonin:
Okay, we're in TOGA. ... What are we here? ... On alti, what do we have here?
Pilot:
[Indiscernible] it's impossible."


Quoting David L (Reply 137):
The issue was not that neither pilot knew what the other was doing. The issue was that none of them had worked out what they should be doing.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 132):
Certainly seems to me highly likely that the underlying cause of the accident was lack of training and experience in 'hands-on' flying using the 'basic' instruments (especially in zero visibility, with no visible horizon),

Honestly don't see where we're disagreeing, David L?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-19 05:00:39 and read 12167 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 137):
The effects of shock-waves within a fuel tank are a lot more complicated than just the kinetic energy of the impact.

I don't disagree, but certainly, we'd expect that the kinetic energy of the striking object has a pretty significant impact on what sort of waves propogate, no?

Quoting David L (Reply 137):
I'd certainly be very wary of a legal system that can dismiss more predictable failures as "just one of those things" while coming down like a ton of bricks on an unprecedented and unpredicted failure.

Why? Let's step back and talk about failure engineering for a second. The idea is to predict the potential failure modes and, depending on the frequency and severity of those failure modes, design them out, guard against them or live with them. If an engineer doesn't predict a failure mode that should have been predicted, that's a problem. Obviously, you are not in any better position to I am to analyze whether this particular failure mode should have been predicted. Neither of us designed Concorde.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-19 05:45:31 and read 12067 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 132):
but the more senior pilot could not have seen his colleague's sidestick from his seat - nor could he have known that, even after he had taken control, his inputs were still being countermanded. And the captain, when he arrived, did not stand at the back either, he appears to have sat down immediately.

All factually wrong. Please, please read the report. It's here: http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601.en/pdf/f-cp090601.en.pdf (English); http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601/pdf/f-cp090601.pdf (French - authoritative version).

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 138):
To quote from that transcript,

Please read the report, instead of quoting a journalist's version of a translation. This part of the transcript means nothing unless correlated with what inputs were being applied and what the plane was actually doing, which are both in the FDR plots contained in the reports.

To give a very simple example, if I'm watching a boxing match on tv and exclaim "Ouch", it means 'that must have hurt'; if I'm hammering in a nail and exclaim the same thing, it means something completely different.

This is a perfect example of the danger of speculating from a CVR that is unaccompanied by all the other contextual evidence - and a translation of what was actually said, to make it worse.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-19 06:14:49 and read 11983 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 140):
All factually wrong. Please, please read the report.

Tried to, Kaiarahi mate, but neither link worked! Please explain, in as few words as possible, to what extent the 'reports' to which you refer differs from previous publications? Blowed if I'll buy a whole new computer just to read it all..........:-}

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-19 06:29:06 and read 11971 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 139):
Obviously, you are not in any better position to I am to analyze whether this particular failure mode should have been predicted.

I am not an aeronautical engineer but I do have an Honours Degree in Physics. While certainly not an expert by any means, I don't think I'm entirely clueless on such matters.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 139):
If an engineer doesn't predict a failure mode that should have been predicted, that's a problem.

Are you sure that other manufacturers were any more thorough at the time in predicting all permutations of a 2-metre tyre carcass hitting the underside of the wing at take-off speed in all orientations? The total energy of the impact is only part of the story. It doesn't tell you where the shock-waves reinforce each other and where they cancel each other out.

If the tyre had simply penetrated the fuel tank itself, then you could simply examine the total energy and the area of contact. But it did not.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 138):

I quoted the comments I was disagreeing with. You're now attributing my responses to something else. Let me break it down...

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 132):
but the more senior pilot could not have seen his colleague's sidestick from his seat

Incorrect. Furthermore, your excerpt from the CVR only illustrates that none of them knew what was happening to the aircraft, or why, and none of them knew what to do. The PF was trying to climb, the others told him to stop trying to climb.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 132):
nor could he have known that, even after he had taken control, his inputs were still being countermanded.

Incorrect. The aural and visual "Dual-input" announcements would have told him. Also, since he began manipulating the controls without telling anyone, he could have expected the PF to continue manipulating his own controls. That's why, on all types, there's a procedure for transferring control from one pilot to another. They did not follow that procedure.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Unflug
Posted 2013-03-19 06:29:57 and read 11957 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 141):
Tried to, Kaiarahi mate, but neither link worked!

The links do work for me. You can also just go to http://www.bea.aero and look up the reports there. It's easy, you won't have to buy a new computer.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 141):
Please explain, in as few words as possible, to what extent the 'reports' to which you refer differs from previous publications?

Are you serious?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-19 06:32:16 and read 11949 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 142):
Are you sure that other manufacturers were any more thorough at the time in predicting all permutations of a 2-metre tyre carcass hitting the underside of the wing at take-off speed in all orientations?

I'm not sure at all. This whole discussion began with me asking a question (not of you) concerning whether a catastrophic tire failure during takeoff was an anticipated failure mode. The next question, obviously, would be whether the particular tire failure that caused this accident was an anticipated failure mode. I don't think we've gotten there yet, though.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-19 07:01:49 and read 11902 times.

Quoting Unflug (Reply 143):
Are you serious?

Dead serious, mate. But - not the fault of any contributors on here -

Quoting David L (Reply 142):
That's why, on all types, there's a procedure for transferring control from one pilot to another. They did not follow that procedure.

Thanks for a new point, David L. Have to admit, not sure that I can say for certain that I've seen the 'magic phrase' that any of us who've flown anything in years past will clearly recall - "I have control."

But if it doesn't appear in the transcripts - doesn't that STILL point towards inadequate training?

[Edited 2013-03-19 07:10:22]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-19 07:14:58 and read 11876 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 144):

Fair enough. I confess, in the days and weeks immediately after the accident, I jumped on the bandwagon in assuming the fuel tank had actually been pierced by FOD or a piece of tyre and feared for Concorde's future. It was especially disappointing given that the early (and quite different) tyre issues seemed to have ceased. It was only after the wreckage had been examined and it was found that the tank had not been pierced from the outside that it became clear that, no matter how unlikely it seemed, the tank had ruptured from within. It was because it had seemed so unlikely that a lot of people, including me, had difficulty believing it. However, the ensuing stream of evidence changed my mind.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 141):
Please explain, in as few words as possible, to what extent the 'reports' to which you refer differs from previous publications? Blowed if I'll buy a whole new computer just to read it all

I think it would be more accurate to say that the accounts in various publications have differed from the report rather than the other way around.

The report, with its accompanying data, is quite large. However, I don't think that's a good enough reason to comment on it without reading it. You must have seen Mandala499's excellent summaries and dissections over the past few years.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-19 07:22:25 and read 11858 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 146):
However, I don't think that's a good enough reason to comment on it without reading it.

I'd be genuinely grateful if you gave me a summary, David L? 'Learning' was more or less my profession, for quite a long time - blowed if I'll stop now.......  

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-19 07:39:24 and read 11819 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 145):
But if it doesn't appear in the transcripts - doesn't that STILL point towards inadequate training?

I'm sure they had more than enough training on transfer of control - I'm sticking my neck out but I don't think it's rocket science. The problem was the strained relationships between the three crew members. It might be argued that good training would trump such issues but, well, people are people.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 147):
I'd be genuinely grateful if you gave me a summary, David L?

Um... well.. frankly, no, I can't. It's not trivial.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-19 08:03:19 and read 11754 times.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 133):
the media and general public is too often forced to resort to speculation

No, there is nothing that forces anyone to speculate. Private speculation may be a natural reaction but public speculation is a choice. The media choses to do it ultimately in the imterest of inceased advertising revenue. The reasons the public choses to do it could fill a psychology text book.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-19 08:09:27 and read 11749 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 141):
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 140):
All factually wrong. Please, please read the report.

Tried to, Kaiarahi mate, but neither link worked!

I just accessed them from 4 different computers.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 147):
I'd be genuinely grateful if you gave me a summary, David L?

Enough said.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 145):
"I have control."

Read the report - it's all in there.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-19 08:27:17 and read 11705 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 148):
The problem was the strained relationships between the three crew members. It might be argued that good training would trump such issues but, well, people are people.

Not entirely sure in my own mind, DavidL. But I think it's more than a possibility.

Can anyone else remember ANY serious accident report that didn't include someone saying, "I have control"?

I can't, offhand. But so far there's no record of anyone saying anything like that in this case?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-19 08:56:26 and read 11642 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 151):
Can anyone else remember ANY serious accident report that didn't include someone saying, "I have control"?

I can't, offhand. But so far there's no record of anyone saying anything like that in this case?

Yes there is. It's all in the report.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-19 09:10:48 and read 11604 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 151):
Not entirely sure in my own mind, DavidL. But I think it's more than a possibility.

Can anyone else remember ANY serious accident report that didn't include someone saying, "I have control"?

I can't, offhand. But so far there's no record of anyone saying anything like that in this case?

Just to be clear, my comments about transfer of control referred to the time around the dual-input where you said the PNF couldn't have known the PF was still operating his own controls.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: comorin
Posted 2013-03-19 09:17:11 and read 11580 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 137):
he issue was not that neither pilot knew what the other was doing. The issue was that none of them had worked out what they should be doing.

   Excellent and succinct summary!

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-19 11:08:13 and read 11400 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 148):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 147):I'd be genuinely grateful if you gave me a summary, David L?
Um... well.. frankly, no, I can't. It's not trivial.
Quoting comorin (Reply 154):
Excellent and succinct summary!

Thank you... for illustrating the inconsistency of my words.  

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airmagnac
Posted 2013-03-19 12:18:36 and read 11297 times.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 133):
In the absence of information, the media and general public
Quoting threepoint (Reply 133):
the general public who may not understand the levels of technical aeronautical detail that you do, but are denied the opportunity to learn, to understand and to apply those lessons to whatever it is that they do

I do not disagree with your objective of providing information to the general public or the people who are not familiar with the design & use of critical systems. The more information gets exchanged, the more ideas/corrections/suggestions/useful remarks you will get back. And ultimately, the more advanced, deep and reliable will your conclusions be.

BUT, 2 problems :

1) Indivdual rights
As I mentioned before, the right to information of the many has to be balanced with the right to privacy of the individual. It is a fundamental right in our modern societies, and violating that right may hamper future gathering of data. If the involved individuals have a lot to lose compared to the collective gain, you just can't expect them to cooperate
Quote from ICAO Annex 13 :
1.1 The protection of safety information from inappropriate use is essential to ensure its continued availability, since the use of safety information for other than safety-related purposes may inhibit the future availability of such information, with an adverse effect on safety

With safety information being :
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) recordings and transcriptions of recordings from air traffic control units; and
f) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.



2) Role of investigation boards like the BEA
Acting as a public relations office is NOT the purpose of investigation authorities. To quote the same ICAO Annex 13 :
3.1 The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents.

Gathering data, confirming it, examining the evidence, linking it to the existing body of knowledge to establish objective, scientific conclusions, and reliably transmitting all this work to all parts of the industry is a tough job as it is. You have to cover the entire picture, get the relevant facts straight and cover in a precise way every detail that may play a role. This also means that you can't have fun and fool around with any pet theory out there. If there is no evidence, you can't conclude anything. So don't.

What we were talking about is to try to boil down the cold boring results into a a story that can be understood and read by non-scientifically minded people with little or no knowledge of the principles of flight, maintenance, engineering or ATC, people with a high level of cognitive bias and a low level of patience for non-entertaining stuff. That's an equally huge amount of work, and I don't see how BEA or other boards can do both.

Now maybe what we need is some kind of international agency dedicated to this pedagogic job, like an official super-version of Mythbusters, or even better, of the French "C'est pas Sorcier" show. Honestly, I'm all for it !



But just to give an idea of the magnitude of the task, look at this thread. The premise is the usual accusations against BEA of :
.....a. Withholding and/or modifying information, in this case about pilote fatigue.
.....b. Doing so in order to "protect the interests" of France and French companies (whatever that means)

The exact same accusations also appear in discussions about Concorde.

Regarding a., the relevant paragraph of the final BEA report has been quoted 4 times so far, by myself, Pihero and Kaiarahi. Four times, and no answer or even a comment regarding this paragraph ; just the same old accusations we started with.
Can someone please explain how you can accuse someone of lying if you don't even know what he said?
I'll quote it again at the end of this post, that'll make it 5 times.

Regarding b., Pihero has again extensively quoted the parts of the report which explain the frame of the investigation, which investigation authorities participated, which observers were appointed and how the report was shared for comments and corrections prior to fuill release. And thus why it would be very difficult for those bloody Français to cover their froggy backsides.
See reply 123. One day and 30 posts later, still no answer

Reading the actual report seems to be mission impossible. But finding 10-line articles from unkown reporters quoting unknown sources and using out-of-context data ? Hey, no problemo !
Enabling the general public to listen and learn is a great idea...but there is more to it than releasing a couple of vague quotes from the voice recordings. And in any case, let's not mix that purpose up with the primary objecive of safety.

-------------------------------------------------------

Extract from BEA report:
1.16.7 Aspects relating to fatigue
The professional timetable of the three crew members during the month that
preceded the accident flight shows that the limitations on flight and duty times, as
well as rest times, were in accordance with the provisions of European Regulation
(EC) n°859/2008 of the European Commission (sub-section Q of Annex III).
The investigation was not able to determine exactly the activities of the flight crew
members during the stopover in Rio, where the crew had arrived three days earlier. It
was not possible to obtain data on their sleep during this stopover.
This lack of precise information on their activity during the stopover, in particular in
relation to sleep, makes it impossible to evaluate the level of fatigue associated to
the flight crew’s duty time.
The CVR recording does, however, make it possible to show that the crew showed no
signs of objective fatigue, as the following elements indicate:
The level of activity and implication of the augmented crew in the first part of
the flight, with the Captain and the copilot seated in the right seat, then in the
second part of the flight with the two copilots, are in accordance with what is
expected from a crew in the cruise phase. No signs of drowsiness or sleepiness
are noticeable;
At 0 h 58 min 07, the Captain was concerned with the state of fatigue of the
copilot in the right seat. («try maybe to sleep twenty minutes when he comes
back or before if you want ») who answered that he didn’t want to sleep;
Questioned on his return to the cockpit, the copilot who took the Captain’s place
answered that he had “dozed”.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-19 12:27:10 and read 11285 times.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 156):
The more information gets exchanged, the more ideas/corrections/suggestions/useful remarks you will get back. And ultimately, the more advanced, deep and reliable will your conclusions be.

Agreed. Let me share such an observation:

This conclusion:

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 156):
The CVR recording does, however, make it possible to show that the crew showed no
signs of objective fatigue

does not follow from these "reasons:"

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 156):
The level of activity and implication of the augmented crew in the first part of
the flight, with the Captain and the copilot seated in the right seat, then in the
second part of the flight with the two copilots, are in accordance with what is
expected from a crew in the cruise phase. No signs of drowsiness or sleepiness
are noticeable;
At 0 h 58 min 07, the Captain was concerned with the state of fatigue of the
copilot in the right seat. («try maybe to sleep twenty minutes when he comes
back or before if you want ») who answered that he didn’t want to sleep;
Questioned on his return to the cockpit, the copilot who took the Captain’s place
answered that he had “dozed”.

A non-stressful (some might say "mind-numbingly boring") task like babysitting a highly automated aircraft during cruise flight is not a time to judge whether or not folks are fatigued. And "dozing" might or might not ameliorate fatigue (if it existed in the first place)

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mandala499
Posted 2013-03-19 12:36:07 and read 11276 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 138):
To quote from that transcript, David L:-

I guess you have not seen the FDR plots after all this time?

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 140):
Please read the report, instead of quoting a journalist's version of a translation. This part of the transcript means nothing unless correlated with what inputs were being applied and what the plane was actually doing, which are both in the FDR plots contained in the reports.

I'll add to the fact that the FDR plot reveals a bigger problem than the alleged cannot see what the other pilot is doing... it revealed, that at that time, given the circumstances, none of them seemed to know what they were doing, what they were telling the other guy, and what they were telling the airplane what to do.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 145):
Have to admit, not sure that I can say for certain that I've seen the 'magic phrase' that any of us who've flown anything in years past will clearly recall - "I have control."

It's standard for multi-crew aircraft be it sidestick controlled or yoke controlled to make that call.
Well, the good news is, almost all cases where "I have control" or "My controls" are said, never made it to the news... and don't make it to the news for the right reason... it averted a mishap and prevented a mistake from being a mishap... mishaps... risk making it to the news.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 145):
But if it doesn't appear in the transcripts - doesn't that STILL point towards inadequate training?

No, it points out to poor CRM conducted by PF and PNF at the time. One can argue that it points out to fatigue by the RHS pilot and can be argued he ended up not being useful in the situation due to some reason or another which we may never know. The training, is not in inadequate handflying techniques, but in abnormal procedures. The FDR plots show that it wasn't PF having difficulty in controlling the aircraft as the cause, but the failure of the crew to perform the required procedure that led to spatial disorientation, 'difficulty in controlling the aircraft' was a result of it.
Furthermore, if one wants to take over the controls from the other pilot... press the sidestick priority button (that nice red button on top of the stick... the last guy who presses it, have priority... of course, one should always tell the other when pressing it, "I have control"...).

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 147):
I'd be genuinely grateful if you gave me a summary, David L?

Here's a summary: http://bit.ly/ZYfNxk
*Others may note that it's version 15 of my consolidated CVR & FDR tabulation, several corrections made since version 14, released 1.5 yrs ago!*

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 151):
Can anyone else remember ANY serious accident report that didn't include someone saying, "I have control"?

I can remember Adam Air 574, doesn't include someone saying "I have control", and that is absent in the leaked CVR (authenticity officially disputed, but former Adam Air Crew has acknowledged that the voices were from the 2 pilots onboard that day... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj83gRkCdkQ ) tapes or the report here http://bit.ly/WTLUSl
In that case, it remains split amongst the investigator who made a corrective input in reaction to the "Bank Angle", and who made the subsequent input putting the aircraft back to the previous bank angle. Combined with the CVR, it seems likely that the FO made the correction, and the captain overrode and returned the aircraft back to the original position, and no one said "I have control" or "my controls".

Back to the original title of this topic... so, the Captain having only had 1 hour of sleep the night before, seems irrelevant, but the pilot on RHS being fatigued, probably played a hand in the tragedy. But who knows...

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-19 12:36:38 and read 11262 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 157):

You need to read section 1.16.8 in the report, which deals in extenso with the psychometric effects of Circadian rhythms, fatigue, anxiety, tension, "boredom", and surprise. Too long to be quoted here, but it's the product of an independent Human Factors Working Group composed of ergonomics experts, pilots, and psychologists/psychiatrists.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: dfambro
Posted 2013-03-19 12:49:27 and read 11250 times.

Based on the FDR, the co-pilot in the right seat starts making control inputs again just a few seconds after 2:11:35

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 156):
As I mentioned before, the right to information of the many has to be balanced with the right to privacy of the individual. It is a fundamental right in our modern societies

It boggles my mind that pilots believe they should have privacy while in the act of piloting a plane carrying large numbers of general public. When the general public puts their souls in your hands, I believe you should be *openly* accountable, not just accountable to regulators in secretive proceedings.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-19 12:52:59 and read 11233 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 159):
You need to read section 1.16.8 in the report, which deals in extenso with the psychometric effects of Circadian rhythms, fatigue, anxiety, tension, "boredom", and surprise. Too long to be quoted here, but it's the product of an independent Human Factors Working Group composed of ergonomics experts, pilots, and psychologists/psychiatrists.

I have. It doesn't discuss fatigue.

It may be that there is additional evidence that tends to suggest that there was not a fatigue issue; my point is simply that nothing in Section 1.16.7 gets us there. What is it in 1.16.8 is there that you think is worth adding to the fatigue discussion?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-19 13:11:11 and read 11222 times.

There is an exercise that those on this forum who know or are pilots in carriers with large fleets of A330s or even other Airbus types might care to undertake.

Ask them what in their professional experience the reaction of their check and training people has been to AF447?

Two northern hemisphere A330 operators have not asked Airbus to change anything. They have however made their people go through their approach to the type to ensure that the authorized flight manual is fully understood and fully complied with, and if I may summarize that the basics of attitude, thrust settings and hands on control are front of mind in the first seconds of any abnormal situation.

A very good example of this was the Qantas Learmont incident and the ATSB report into a loss of control that caused injuries of reportable seriousness to more than 100 of the passengers on board.

It is acknowledged that the BEA report also drives carriers to do the above, but it could perhaps have done this better with a more detailed dissection of the by the second things that happened between men and machine in AF447.

It would have been exemplary to construct an alternative optimal scenario for dealing with the specifics of the AF447 incident from the moment of auto-pilot disconnection, and a sub-optimal scenario where a more prompt and focused intervention was made after the jet had been incorrectly sent into a climb.

One thing that is apparent in a number of well known Qantas incident reports involving Boeings as well as the Learmont A330 is that diagnosis was not the priority. Control was the priority. And in the A330 incident there was only one pilot in the cockpit when the first 'seizure' in the defective ADIRU occurred.

If the BEA had been prepared to focus on what happened between the men and the men and the machine in more detail than it did, and not leave anything out with all the respectful protocols it would have also had the additional benefit of boring the general media out of its brains, and ending much of the speculation long before it took root.

There would be continued if not enhanced focus on the risk of automatiom, and it might be argued prevarication when things go suddenly wrong in the office.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: N14AZ
Posted 2013-03-19 13:25:39 and read 11174 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 134):
For those who think that the Captain lacking sleep is an important factor here, well, I do say to them, go look elsewhere! Rather irrelevant to this case to be honest.

That's what I was thinking all the time. Even if the captain would have been fit as a sport shoe, I guess it wouldn't have made a big difference.

If I recall correctly the Captain would have had to be very quick after being contacted by the cockpit crew, immediately understanding the situation when entering the cockpit, taking-over control and rescueing the plane from that fatal dive.

In the previous threads, someone made an estimation and IIRC there was not much time left.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-19 13:32:32 and read 11159 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 162):
it could perhaps have done this better with a more detailed dissection of the by the second things that happened between men and machine in AF447.

They did - it's in the interim report.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mandala499
Posted 2013-03-19 13:45:56 and read 11171 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 162):
Ask them what in their professional experience the reaction of their check and training people has been to AF447?

Two A320 operator here:
"What did we miss?" was their immediate reaction. They immediately added or modified (can't remember) ALTN LAW NO PROT flight (similar to ALTN2 on 330) at high altitude flight as soon as the ACARS messages were known, and also reviewed the training for "Flight with Unreliable Airspeed" for low and high altitude, since the intermediary reports came out, they were already looking at how to prevent pilots from making the wrong memory item (not limited to unreliable airspeed, due to internal safety reports).

One requested explanations on AF447 PF's actions probable underlying factors, and they quickly agreed to introduce the BUSS, while the other was quite reluctant on the BUSS.
One of the above has had unreliable airspeed in IFR situations, but were no events, so they have direct experience to build on... and that's why they were quick to decide on the BUSS.

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-19 14:10:08 and read 11096 times.

BUSS is very important. It seemed disturbing to me that in anything other than an A380 Airbus was demanding money for unlocking something that was of such potential importance to improved safety.

But I'm not a pilot, and not an airline executive, just a hack asking questions. I found it as morally offensive as buying a car which had air bags and anti-skid braking already installed, but would have to cough up an extra $5000 to get them switched on!

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airmagnac
Posted 2013-03-19 14:20:01 and read 11045 times.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 160):
It boggles my mind that pilots


I'm not a pilot

Quoting dfambro (Reply 160):
believe they should have privacy while in the act of piloting a plane carrying large numbers of general public. When the general public puts their souls in your hands


You cherry-picked and conveniently left out the rest of my explanation. Which is not that complicated : a group is made up of individuals collaborating for a same purpose. If you treat the individuals like shit for the greater good of the group, eventually the individuals cease cooperating, and the group falls apart. So whatever gain you may get in the short term will be offset in the long term.
If pilots, or any other professionals, are not respected as individuals, you cannot count on them to contribute to overall safety

Also, your justification of "being responsible for large numbers of the public" seems to me to be rather dangerous. As a driver in my car, I am in control of a potentially lethal object, and therefore responsible for the safety of my passengers and my fellow drivers. So if I have an accident, which may not even be my fault, my whole life should be exposed in the world media so that I can properly be held accountable ?

Quoting dfambro (Reply 160):
you should be *openly* accountable, not just accountable to regulators in secretive proceedings.

They are. To the judicial instituion that has jurisdiction, which is seperate from the technical investigation. And which is bound only by the laws of its land. Meaning it has authority to disclose information if it deems it necessary. So far it has not.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 161):
What is it in 1.16.8 is there that you think is worth adding to the fatigue discussion?

1.16.7 establishes that there are no objective reasons to consider the crew as fatigue-prone. I note your disagreement, but as it is only based on your opinion of pilot behaviour in cruise phase and on the effects of somnolence/dozing , I don't really know what I can answer.
After establishing that, the human factors group explains in 1.16.8 that it looked into how the crew members' behaviours played a role. The resulting analysis is then used in 2.1, which links these behaviours to training techniques, no clear decision process for the individuals or the crew together, and other factors which could very well happen to a non-fatigued crew. Those are the things that must be clearly identified and corrected. Blurring these items by introducing the notion of fatigue without proper evidence would be counter-productive.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: dfambro
Posted 2013-03-19 14:43:12 and read 10994 times.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 167):
You cherry-picked and conveniently left out the rest of my explanation. Which is not that complicated : a group is made up of individuals collaborating for a same purpose. If you treat the individuals like shit for the greater good of the group, eventually the individuals cease cooperating, and the group falls apart. So whatever gain you may get in the short term will be offset in the long term.
If pilots, or any other professionals, are not respected as individuals, you cannot count on them to contribute to overall safety

I understood you and quoted what was relevant. The rest of your explanation doesn't really hold up, frankly. For one, what does "stop cooperating" mean here? Does it mean stop talking in the cockpit? Does it mean stop talking to investigators? Are you really suggesting that either would occur if non-redacted transcipts were released? That seems pretty far-fetched to me. For that matter, releasing a transcript is hardly treating "individuals like shit".

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 167):
Also, your justification of "being responsible for large numbers of the public" seems to me to be rather dangerous. As a driver in my car, I am in control of a potentially lethal object, and therefore responsible for the safety of my passengers and my fellow drivers. So if I have an accident, which may not even be my fault, my whole life should be exposed in the world media so that I can properly be held accountable ?

You misunderstand to point so the analogy is not apt. You would only be publicly accountable if you were selling tickets to your passengers, meaning that you were operating a public transport. And all that would "exposed to the world media" is your conduct while actually operating that public transport. I don't see how that is dangerous.

The actual point of debate here is the release of a full, unredacted (or redacted minimally to remove personal comments) vs the release of a redacted transcript.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 167):
Quoting dfambro (Reply 160): you should be *openly* accountable, not just accountable to regulators in secretive proceedings.
They are. To the judicial instituion that has jurisdiction, which is seperate from the technical investigation. And which is bound only by the laws of its land. Meaning it has authority to disclose information if it deems it necessary. So far it has not.

By "openly" I meant publicly, of course.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-19 14:56:00 and read 10974 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 166):
BUSS is very important. It seemed disturbing to me that in anything other than an A380 Airbus was demanding money for unlocking something that was of such potential importance to improved safety.

The marginal cost for BUSS is not likely to be relevant to an airline's chosing the option (when it has a choice) or passing on it. The decision would be made on operational grounds.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-19 15:21:33 and read 10944 times.

hivue,

When I was being sent to France at frequent intervals for weeks at a time by a news organisation in London Air Inter elected not to install GPWS. From memory the carrier argued that because it never went very high between cities the warnings might have been a 'distraction' to the pilots. I can't remember whether this lunacy persisted up until the St Odile crash but it certainly didn't build my confidence in that carrier's judgement or standards.

It was like flying in an asylum. The morning after that crash and the discovery of the survivors by a journalist who could smell the kerosene and keep looking through the dark snowy roads while the gendarmes went home to their warm beds I had to transfer from CDG to an internal flight on what was an Air Inter Mercure painted in Air France colours and the inmates running the boarding managed to load passengers to two different cities on the one plane and had to re do everything.

I am always amused when some of my associates in France carry on about unsafe foreign carriers, such as banned Indonesian carriers. The problems at home ought to be treated as more urgent and relevant, and I think the March 2012 incident involving an Air France flight on final approach to CDG and the apparently deliberate or negligent overwriting of the CVR tells us that problems at Air France persist.

[Edited 2013-03-19 15:24:31]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-19 16:19:19 and read 10839 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 158):
The FDR plots show that it wasn't PF having difficulty in controlling the aircraft as the cause, but the failure of the crew to perform the required procedure that led to spatial disorientation

I'll go so far as to say that the pilots in AF447 actually maintained a significant level of control over the aircraft. It fell in a stable attitude for almost seven miles. The PF kept the aircraft from inverting, from spinning, from departing the normal flight envelope - except for his induced commands to pitch the nose too high.

The difficulty wasn't in controlling the aircraft, it was in giving the aircraft wrong control inputs for the situation.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 160):
It boggles my mind that pilots believe they should have privacy while in the act of piloting a plane carrying large numbers of general public. When the general public puts their souls in your hands, I believe you should be *openly* accountable, not just accountable to regulators in secretive proceedings.

I don't understand what bothers you, besides having key facts wrong.

The pilots ask for privacy in words spoken which have no impact or relevance on the accident.

However, those words are not kept private in secretive proceedings. As outlined above, those with a professional need have a process to review the full transcript, to actually hear the CVR.

Who does not have a process to review those are members of the general public and 'journalists' with agenda's who want to take those words out of context. Frankly you have no need or reason to review private personal prayers or last words to loved ones. Other than a possible lack of human decency as the journalist who wrote the misleading and incorrect story which started this thread.

This entire thread -171 posts - is about words taken out of context which have no meaning in the accident investigation.

It is 171 post on a mistranslation of a supposed statement which adds nothing to our understanding of the accident. If anything, this is 171 post which only add confusion and false statements to make understanding the accident more difficult.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: dfambro
Posted 2013-03-19 17:38:15 and read 10725 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 171):
I don't understand what bothers you, besides having key facts wrong.

No facts wrong, I was just speaking loosely (and a little hyperbolicly) to make a point.

What bothers me is that I think you and others see this issue completely ass-backwards. I don't think the issue is "what should be released", rather it's "why should something NOT be released". The professional act of piloting a public transport is an inherently public act that should have no expectation of privacy. Privacy can be had in the crew rest when not operating the plane. 200+ lives were snuffed out and the community robbed of their presence, yet you and others would say that the pilot's privacy *while piloting the plane* is tantamount and should be protected, and as for the community, well they can just be left in the dark as much as the professionals see fit. I hope you can at least see why that would bother me.

So, let's ask "why should something NOT be released" from a CVR transcript, which is the issue at hand. One good reason is that it's an irrelevant comment of a highly personal nature. OK, I'm willing to grant minimal redactions for that reason. How about, because it might be mis-interpreted, or taken out of context? Sorry, that doesn't cut it as a large enough concern to merit redaction for me. It's such a loosy-goosy concept that it could be used to justify redacting just about anything and quash legitimate differences of opinion. Because someone might use the material ghoulishly? That concern barely merits a response. Yes there are ugly-minded and bad people in the world and that sucks but you just have to ignore them and grow some thicker skin.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-19 18:42:46 and read 10654 times.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 172):
The professional act of piloting a public transport is an inherently public act that should have no expectation of privacy.

OK. But the act of driving an automobile on public roads is inherently a public act as well. I trust that you believe motorists should have no expectation of privacy.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 172):
Because someone might use the material ghoulishly? That concern barely merits a response. Yes there are ugly-minded and bad people in the world and that sucks but you just have to ignore them and grow some thicker skin.

But the dead cannot grow thicker skin. Or perhaps they no longer count for anything since they are dead?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-19 18:43:24 and read 10663 times.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 167):
1.16.7 establishes that there are no objective reasons to consider the crew as fatigue-prone. I note your disagreement, but as it is only based on your opinion of pilot behaviour in cruise phase and on the effects of somnolence/dozing , I don't really know what I can answer.

Please send me some links to whatever literature shows that either (1) times of low-stress, low-skill, repetitive tasks are good times to judge fatigue effects and (2) a few minutes of dozing automatically ameliorates fatigue.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that they were fatigued. I don't think what's in the report permits us to draw a conclusion one way or the other.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 167):
Blurring these items by introducing the notion of fatigue without proper evidence would be counter-productive.

To me, it's obvious there were human factors problems in the cockpit. The potential causes of those problems, including fatigue but also poor CRM, poor training and a host of others should be examined and, if possible, discarded.

Sometimes, people just screw up and there's no good reason for it, and that may be what happened here. That said, I don't know how we discard fatigue in this case based on what is in the report. Maybe there's information that I'm missing.

[Edited 2013-03-19 18:47:43]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-19 18:45:17 and read 10690 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 166):
BUSS is very important. It seemed disturbing to me that in anything other than an A380 Airbus was demanding money for unlocking something that was of such potential importance to improved safety.

It's amazing the way you see the world in black and white.
the BUSS was designed by Airbus, for the 380 as a part of their new philosophy of self-monitoring systems : here, the three ADIRUs. In the previous aircraft, determining a set of faulty ADRs is not easy and the procedures are not very intuitive, nor easy to apply.The solution they found came from the newest ADIRU system in which the AoA was generated no longer by the ADR but by the IRS ... Problem is . what to do with that information in order to present it to the crew as the ADR-generated data could very well clash with that AoA when sent to the PFDs. The solution is drastic, and in my opinion rather dramatic : switch all three ADRs off ! and then you're left with a FAST / SLOW scale in lieu of a speed tape and a GPS altitude instead of baro data on the PFD
All the above imply then : replacing all existing ADIRUs (for Air France, that's some 650 units ), pllus the software, plus tje elaboration of a new doctrine of use, plus the training,... and the sims have to be modified too... and of course for quite a long period when the new sets exchanges happen, one would have two standards : with and without BUSS..

Another aspect of the BUSS : its use is not recommended above FL 250 as Mach effects arise. AF447 was at FL 360 initially if I'm not mistaken.

So, it's a bit - I agree just a teeny weeny bit - more complicated than your sooo graphic and morally offensive comparison with air bags.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 170):
I am always amused when some of my associates in France carry on about unsafe foreign carriers,

Probably as much as I am amused by the rantings of someone who is trying to write on subjects he doesn't know and resort to refer to some shady journalism .

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 170):
When I was being sent to France at frequent intervals for weeks at a time by a news organisation in London Air Inter elected not to install GPWS. From memory the carrier argued that because it never went very high between cities the warnings might have been a 'distraction' to the pilots. I can't remember whether this lunacy persisted up until the St Odile crash but it certainly didn't build my confidence in that carrier's judgement or standards.

Thjis is a very good example and illustrates very well your tactics :
1/- Your memory isn't very reliable and Air Inter never invented such a ludicrous reason as "we fly not high betrween cities" ( btw what does that mean in your language ?)
As a matter of fact, Air Inter, in conjunction with the CEV - France testing centre - had tested for more than a year the Sundstrand 3 GPWS on their network and found out, still with the CEV, that it wasn't reliable enough as it generated too many false alarms, so many in fact that they completely defeated its usefulness. I remember being on one of these flights into a visual approach to Ajaccio on which the damn thing kept on blaring "Pull UP" non stop... the captain switched it off.
At the same time, Air France accepted the Mk 3 but on many approach plates, there were zones identified as "Potentially spurious triggerings of GPWS warnings ", which puts a little caution on the GPWS use.
IIRC, Air Inter agreed to equip all its aircraft with the wiring necessary for the subsequent model of GPWS, the 5 if I'm not mistaken which was more elaborate and generated a lot fewer false alarms.

There have been a lot of discussions, among the pilots, the unions and the IFALPA as to whether the Mk 3 would have saved the accident... the answer, as usual lies in how each individual perceives himself in that situation. Considering at that time the FDR statistics on some 500 incidents / accidents, it took an average of 5 seconds for a crew to react to a pullup alarm and 80% never used the maximum escape procedure. The numbers for Mt Ste Odile were a possible pullup 18 seconds before the impact ; an automatic go around (they were under A/P ) would have taken 7 seconds to reduce the 3300ft/min veritcal speed to zero and a further 3 seconds to reach the 1500 ft/min required to clear the obstacle : so the maths say 5 seconds reaction time + 7 seconds to annull the descent + 3 to establish a safe climb = 15 seconds. In this scenarion, they would have cleared the Bloss as 15 seconds is shorter than 18, but it’s just statistics.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 170):
The morning after that crash and the discovery of the survivors by a journalist who could smell the kerosene and keep looking through the dark snowy roads while the gendarmes went home to their warm beds

A despicable comment that is so close to libel and defamation it makes no difference :
The gendarmes , or one group of gendarmes rather, sent to la Bloss as a likely site met on their way one of the survivors who led them to the crash site. They were the first on site.
That it took four hours from the alert to find the wreckage and the survivors is due to 1/-the terrain, a mountaneous forest, 2/- the weather conditions in dense freezing fog, 3/- the difficulty in coordinating the rescue teams as radio-coms were inefficient, taking into account the accidented relief and 4/- the thrill seekers and get-a-peekers alerted by the journalists  sarcastic  of the local radio station who came in droves and totally jammed the roads and tracks of the whole area.
Quite a different story from yours isnt'it ?

and finally :

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 170):
I had to transfer from CDG to an internal flight on what was an Air Inter Mercure painted in Air France colours and the inmates running the boarding managed to load passengers to two different cities on the one plane and had to re do everything.

Air Inter didn't as you infer, manage to paint that aircraft overnight  sarcastic  in AF colours to hide the bad publicity of the accident : No Mercure ever wore the Air France colour scheme. So you're twice mistaken
And I find quite extraordinary your total lack of understanding and sympathy for "inmates" who' d just lost colleagues and friends in the most horrendous accident they could think of.
Hope you're proud of such cool headedness.

[Edited 2013-03-19 18:59:46]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: dfambro
Posted 2013-03-19 19:41:30 and read 10578 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 173):

OK. But the act of driving an automobile on public roads is inherently a public act as well. I trust that you believe motorists should have no expectation of privacy.

Honestly, I don't know where you're going with this. What you say inside your own private vehicle is private. Is anyone disputing that? As for accidents, well, police reports from accidents are public. That seems to be the rough equivalent here of a CVR transcript, which is the issue at hand. What is the information that authorities have about a car crash that should be kept quiet for privacy's sake?

Quoting hivue (Reply 173):
Quoting dfambro (Reply 172):
Because someone might use the material ghoulishly? That concern barely merits a response. Yes there are ugly-minded and bad people in the world and that sucks but you just have to ignore them and grow some thicker skin.

But the dead cannot grow thicker skin. Or perhaps they no longer count for anything since they are dead?

Hmm, I'm still confused. Isn't your problem that I don't value anyone's privacy in this context, living or dead? I think the CVR transcript should be released even if the pilot survived. I certainly don't think the dead should get special treatment because they are dead.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-19 19:45:47 and read 10595 times.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 176):
What is the information that authorities have about a car crash that should be kept quiet for privacy's sake?

In a lot of states, EDR/black box data belongs to the vehicle owner. But it's not really a good analogy, since airlines as common carriers have a higher duty to the public than Joe Public driver does.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-19 20:02:52 and read 10595 times.

Pihero,

You've descended to some very offensive comments about me which are untrue.

I may be new here, but I would have thought that while we may disagree, we don't personally insult.

While I'm new to here your attempts to run away from some reasonable observations that we need to know what happened between the men to know what actually happened to the machine is nothing to be considered sacred or off limits.

As I understand it this forum is about discussion, not that shall not go here or there.

I've learned some good things here. Perhaps you could learn some manners too.

PS There is nothing libelous about the poor performance of the gendarmerie on the night of the crash. They were interviewed declaring all was lost on the mount and coming back in the morning, and a local journalist found the survivors around their makeshift camp fire within about 20 minutes and took photos which were published in Paris Match and led to some very serious questions in the Assembly. It was a major embarrassment for the authorities, which I might add is what we do in journalism, which is expose poor performance.

[Edited 2013-03-19 20:07:53]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mandala499
Posted 2013-03-19 21:44:07 and read 10489 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 171):
I'll go so far as to say that the pilots in AF447 actually maintained a significant level of control over the aircraft. It fell in a stable attitude for almost seven miles. The PF kept the aircraft from inverting, from spinning, from departing the normal flight envelope - except for his induced commands to pitch the nose too high.

The difficulty wasn't in controlling the aircraft, it was in giving the aircraft wrong control inputs for the situation.

A classic case of overcontrolling the aircraft ending up in task-saturation hence spatial disorientation...
The sad part is, this isn't an easy issue to address, and is a high-risk problem in poor CRM situations.
No matter how many bells alarms and whistles, once one gets into that situation, it literally needs someone to punch the saturated guy out of his/her seat (or have a thumb fight on the sidestick priority button).

How easy is an AF447 situation in a yoke-controlled aircraft? Pretty easy when everyone's 'out of it', just look at BEA Staines and that NW 727 in a ferry... heck, the latter ignored the stall warning/stick shaker. So much for some people's "sidesticks are dangerous yokes are better" rants. The problem is not that... it's human. (NAV20 U reading this?)

Quoting Pihero (Reply 175):
It's amazing the way you see the world in black and white.

Quite disturbed myself....

Quoting Pihero (Reply 175):
The solution is drastic, and in my opinion rather dramatic : switch all three ADRs off ! and then you're left with a FAST / SLOW scale in lieu of a speed tape and a GPS altitude instead of baro data on the PFD

Let me add that for a pilot to decide to switch all three ADRs off to save him/herself and everyone else in an ADR problem situation, takes a leap of faith. The local airline here that refused the BUSS refused for that reason... "You want me to switch off my pitot static system and rely on...? IRUs?" If one think that's stupid/funny, then one should say that 'mistrusting FBW' at least in the initial years, are/were stupid and funny. Even the airline that took up the BUSS option, accepted that the "you want me to switch off WHAT? no, gimme pitch'n'power instead" mistrust argument is still a valid hurdle in terms of crew psychology to overcome. They experienced the same thing in the 737 to 320 switch, so, kinda 'seen it all before' for the airline.

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-19 22:03:08 and read 10490 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 178):
I may be new here, but I would have thought that while we may disagree, we don't personally insult.

Where did I insult you ?
I have tried to put thiis event in perspective : The gendarmes found the wreckage, guided by one of the survivors. Not one of your colleagues. A simple look at a map would have told you that the search teams were scattered on a zone which was some of 100 square kilometers,
Had that journalist found the survivors after - as you said - 25 minutes, what did he do for the next four hours and five mlinutes ? we know your answer : he took pictures to sell to Paris Match ! If you had reflected five seconds, you'd have realised that his alleged behaviour would have been a damn good reason to sue him for "non assisting persons in danger of death ". That's our law. Your version of the events doesn't hold a drop of water.. and you've revealed your correspondants in France. I know them. I have had dealings with them. And I don't have much respect for them. They do the same to me, which is fair, btw.

The libel was, and I quote :

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 170):
while the gendarmes went home to their warm beds I

... which was patently untrue and casts a very insulting calomny on their professionalism and dedication.

Finally, your description of the Air Inter agents the next morning as "inmates" is, to say the least unsympathetic or uncaring .To me, it smacks of being wilfully offensive. Why not?, after all : The crash apparently didn't affect you one bit, you didn't lose anybody of your family, your friends or people you could relate to, as you could observe with amusement their "antics" and their boardfing errors.

As for discussion technique, considering that a discussion is an exchange of points of view, there is not one instance of you answering questions the posters on this thread asked you. Not one of mine in any case ( but I may be mistaken )

I find it really amusing that you allow yourself to criticize, cast aspersions, make defamatory remarks about my country, my colleagfues, the probity of our institutions, but you are untouchable ? Why ? Double standards or a case for the goose and the gander ?

As a new poster, you have achieved something of a record : Lumping in accusations of dishonesty, conspiracy, criminal negligence, incompetence, lunacy...the BEA, Air France, The French judicial system, the pilots, Air Inter, the Gendarmerie... in just twelve posts ! That's really impressive.

In these twelve posts of yours there isn't one quote - not one - from posters who gave you the respect and the consideration you'd deserve... but you chose to ignore them all. The mantra is : They hid something important, it's a sinister plot, a danger to democracy...
Question : where did you get that titbit of information ? the answer is : A leak from another official report which just added a possible factor to the accident... why was it added ? because one expert found the briefing for ETOPS zone entry "undynamic" and associated it with "the maximum level of fatigue of the low phase of the circadian cycle". The BEA disagrees, giving its own interpretations, also noting that the PF had his internal clock on Rio time. Gosh ! What a find ! Any court of law all over the world would put that into the "circumstancial evidence" basket and lawyers are going to argue about it for months.

In passing, this is an illustration of the dangers of interpreting the CVR recording : That two groups of specialists could disagree on the importance of a third of a line of a 507 page report, what does that say about how Joe Sixpack or Marcel deLaRue would make of it ? I have the answer, unfortunately : a campaign to really really affect these peoples' families.
I for one find that intolerable. Do you ?

Regards

[Edited 2013-03-19 22:07:03]

[Edited 2013-03-19 22:14:18]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-19 23:04:34 and read 10408 times.

Pihero,

Sorry. Been elsewhere this afternoon.

I have reviewed only a few of the search results for Air Inter 148, among them this extract from the Wiki summary under 'secours'

Deux civils et un journaliste des DNA, ayant fait des recherches à leur propre initiative, découvrent les survivants et la carcasse de l’appareil. Ils informent les gendarmes de l'emplacement ;
22 h 35 : grâce à ces indications, le groupe de gendarmerie mobile rejoint l'endroit. Les gendarmes apportent les premiers secours. Quatre personnes sont évacuées par les gendarmes car jugées transportables ;

Reading further, there are references to two of the six passengers who died immediately after the crash being considered to have died because of the two hour delay in reaching the wreckage after the search effort made initial and futile investigations.

As I recollect, the media of the day, and I mean the likes of Le Monde, not some tabloid nonsense, became very concerned at the delay and the possibly needless deaths.

One of the recommendations of the inquiry was that the equivalent of an EPIRB today be fitted to the Air Inter jets which had by then become almost universal in jet airline operations in the developed world.

I think my recollection of the controversy that followed the crash is reasonable, however it is also unrelated to the focus of the thread, which has become the issue of full disclosure as to what happened between the men in the machine, so that we can better understand what happened to the machine, and as it may turn out, what the machine did to them.

This is actually the purpose of air accident investigations, to reveal, not conceal, and learn safety lessons and apply them, or rather disseminate them.

In your earlier reply you offended me by saying, among other things, "graphic and morally offensive comparison with air bags" and made an association with 'shady journalism'.

This is gratuitous. When I joined this forum I did carefully read the voluminous conditions and expectations.

I think you should as a much more senior member of the fraternity respect those terms as much as I hope to.

Yes there is reason for all of us to be passionate, and at times annoyed, but when people complain often rightly about the standards of reporters, or politicians, or whomever, they should be careful not to debase their own standards.

I am at fault for mentioning Air Infer at all. It was not a distinguished carrier, although I acquired a weakness for the Caravelles and Mercures it operated, because they weren't 'ordinary' airliners but had personality and character.

Right down to the Gitanes ads on the open luggage racks.

You also totally misunderstood my reference to Air Inter in Air France livery. I was simply making it clear that experience was after the process of amalgamating the brands and management had began, and the morning after Saint Odile I had flown in from Sydney and not been familiar with the day to day news in France for some years. I wasn't suggesting Air Inter was trying to pretend to be Air France with an overnight paint job.

What our safety investigators do is something that needs to be under scrutiny, which will often be favourable scrutiny and better explain to the public what it is at stake and what the purpose is. It is a way of countering the perception that such inquiries are there to lay blame. I'm imagine that if there is blame to be found, it will be determined by Sylvie Zimmermann or whoever is performing her role these days (it's been a while since I saw a report about this) although let's hope it doesn't take as long decide as the 2006 decision, which I think everyone thought fair, in relation to Airbus liability in the Air Inter 148 case.

[Edited 2013-03-19 23:07:35]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: N14AZ
Posted 2013-03-19 23:17:59 and read 10362 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 170):
Air Inter Mercure painted in Air France colours

I might be wrong but I think something like this never existed (sorry for being OT but this caught my attention.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-19 23:49:21 and read 10339 times.

No you're right. Using the A Net photo search engine it is clear that the Mercure's retained the Air Inter livery until they were parked.

I think my memory is of aircraft like this which for a while carried the Air France livery and but the Air Inter title, and I must be remembering them, probably on many later trips to France before the Air Inter title finally vanished.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-I...d=b16956155819b887b795ab1a0f6b6d51

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-20 03:46:35 and read 10160 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 181):
this extract from the Wiki summary under 'secours'

This is one aspect of your research I really do not agree with : Your wariness of the supposed partiality of the official documents prevents you from some very interesting findings : Wiki can be exploited by just about anybody, whatever his / her agenda is / was / will be
As a matter of fact, this paragraph of the text in wiki is the exact transcription from the commission report except the discovery of the wreckage and some serious editing of the events around the search.

First the wiki paragraph :

"Les heures sont en TU. Pour l’heure française, ajouter une heure.
18 h 31, l’alerte est donnée par l’approche de Strasbourg, qui prévient le centre de coordination et de sauvetage (RCC) de Drachenbronn, le centre de contrôle de Reims (CRNA Est) et la préfecture du Bas-Rhin ;
18 h 34 : le RCC déclenche le plan SATER/2 auprès de la préfecture. La zone de recherche concerne le mont Sainte-Odile ;
18 h 40 : lancement du plan rouge. Création d’un poste de commandement opérationnel (PCO) installé à la brigade de gendarmerie de Barr ;
18 h 41 : le RCC demande la restitution de l'enregistrement du radar de Drachenbronn, des dispositions similaires sont prises par le CRNA Est. La restitution n’est mise à la disposition du RCC respectivement qu'à 20 h 10 et à 22 h 04, en raison des moyens de restitution des trajectoires radar existant dans ces centres à la date de l'accident, et des procédures en vigueur quant à leur mise en œuvre. Ces éléments ne permettent au RCC de réduire que lentement la zone des recherches telle que définie à 19 h 09 puis 19 h 30 ;
19 h 09 : la préfecture, à la demande du RCC, déclenche SATER/3. Les recherches s’étendent dans un secteur compris entre le mont Sainte-Odile et Andlau ;
19 h 13 : décollage d’une Alouette III de la sécurité civile basée sur l'aéroport de Strasbourg-Entzheim. Il fait des recherches visuelles, mais qui ne concernent ni le mont Sainte-Odile ni La Bloss ;
19 h 30 : le secteur de recherches est élargi : il se situe désormais entre le mont Sainte-Odile, Barr, Andlau, Le Hohwald ;
20 h 45 : en fonction des indications données au PCO par deux agents d'Air Inter sur le point survolé par l'A320 lors de son dernier contact radio (Breitenbach), trois zones de recherches de 3 km de côté sont définies. La zone N° 1, prioritaire était centrée sur La Bloss. Il était question d'y engager les forces de gendarmes mobiles à mesure qu’elles arrivaient afin de faire des recherches dans ce secteur avec l'aide des sapeurs-pompiers et des guides du Club vosgien. Le déploiement des différentes équipes de recherche dans cette zone a été effectué de 21 h 00 à 21 h 35 ;
Deux civils et un journaliste des DNA, ayant fait des recherches à leur propre initiative, découvrent les survivants et la carcasse de l’appareil. Ils informent les gendarmes de l'emplacement ;
22 h 35 : grâce à ces indications, le groupe de gendarmerie mobile rejoint l'endroit. Les gendarmes apportent les premiers secours. Quatre personnes sont évacuées par les gendarmes car jugées transportables
...


and now the official report excerpt :

"Les heures sont en TU. Pour l’heure française, ajouter une heure.
18 h 31, l’alerte est donnée par l’approche de Strasbourg, qui prévient le centre de coordination et de sauvetage (RCC) de Drachenbronn, le centre de contrôle de Reims (CRNA Est) et la préfecture du Bas-Rhin ;
18 h 34 : le RCC déclenche le plan SATER/2 auprès de la préfecture. La zone de recherche concerne le mont Sainte-Odile ;
18 h 40 : lancement du plan rouge. Création d’un poste de commandement opérationnel (PCO) installé à la brigade de gendarmerie de Barr ;
18 h 41 : le RCC demande la restitution de l'enregistrement du radar de Drachenbronn, des dispositions similaires sont prises par le CRNA Est. La restitution n’est mise à la disposition du RCC respectivement qu'à 20 h 10 et à 22 h 04, en raison des moyens de restitution des trajectoires radar existant dans ces centres à la date de l'accident, et des procédures en vigueur quant à leur mise en œuvre. Ces éléments ne permettent au RCC de réduire que lentement la zone des recherches telle que définie à 19 h 09 puis 19 h 30 ;
19 h 09 : la préfecture, à la demande du RCC, déclenche SATER/3. Les recherches s’étendent dans un secteur compris entre le mont Sainte-Odile et Andlau ;
19 h 13 : décollage d’une Alouette III de la sécurité civile basée sur l'aéroport de Strasbourg-Entzheim. Il fait des recherches visuelles, mais qui ne concernent ni le mont Sainte-Odile ni La Bloss ;
19 h 30 : le secteur de recherches est élargi : il se situe désormais entre le mont Sainte-Odile, Barr, Andlau, Le Hohwald ;
20 h 45 : en fonction des indications données au PCO par deux agents d'Air Inter sur le point survolé par l'A320 lors de son dernier contact radio (Breitenbach), trois zones de recherches de 3 km de côté sont définies. La zone N° 1, prioritaire était centrée sur La Bloss. Il était question d'y engager les forces de gendarmes mobiles à mesure qu’elles arrivaient afin de faire des recherches dans ce secteur avec l'aide des sapeurs-pompiers et des guides du Club vosgien. Le déploiement des différentes équipes de recherche dans cette zone a été effectué de 21 h 00 à 21 h 35 ;
- à 21H25, le RCC a demandé d'accentuer les recherches sur un axe orienté au 320° partant du château de Landsberg vers le point coté 826 (La Bloss).

- à 22h04, le RCC a donné à la préfecture les coordonnées du dernier plot enregistré par le CRNA Est (48° 25' 37N ; 007° 24' 42E) en précisant que l'appareil pouvait se trouver vers la cote 826 (La Bloss).

- à 22h10, il a été demandé à un régiment de l'Armée de Terre (200 personnes) de partir ratisser la zonen°2 (mission annulée à 22h20 en fonction de derniers témoignages reçus et confirmant l'orientation des recherches sur le massif de La Bloss).

Un rescapé valide a pu rejoindre la route et indiquer l'emplacement de l'épave, ce qui a permis l'intervention d'un groupe de gendarmerie mobile, qui a rejoint l'épave à 22h35.

Il faut noter qu'un nombre important de véhicules privés a afflué très rapidement sur toutes les routes donnant accès au Mont Sainte-Odile, comme conséquence, semble-t-il, des annonces faites par les médias (notamment par les radios locales)...


So, the "survivor who could reach the road and lead the gendarmes" becomes "two civilians and a journalist", a magical transformation that will lead you into accusing the gendarmes of staying comfortable in their warm beds when heroic reporters sacrificed themselves...

Also look at the missing parts on the Wiki text, about how people from official agencies and ... fancy that ! ... two Air Inter agents who helped determine the site with a lot more precision.

Some editing, hey ? I wonder where the conspiracy really lies ?      

Note : I could provide a translation of the above texts if anyone is intertested in this argument.

[Edited 2013-03-20 03:48:42]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-20 03:50:55 and read 10136 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 181):
This is actually the purpose of air accident investigations, to reveal, not conceal, and learn safety lessons and apply them, or rather disseminate them.

I'm not aware of the mission statement being put as such. Replace "to reveal, not conceal" with "to determine probable causes" and I'll agree with that comment. Otherwise...

Quoting dfambro (Reply 176):
As for accidents, well, police reports from accidents are public.

As are aviation accident reports. But car accidents aren't scrutinised by the public to anything like the same extent that aviation accidents are. If they were, you might well hear calls to limit what information is placed in the public domain.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 176):
That seems to be the rough equivalent here of a CVR transcript, which is the issue at hand

I don't agree with that at all. Police accident reports are the equivalents of aviation accident reports. An equivalent of the CVR is entirely absent from road accident reports.

I don't get your idea that people who are responsible for the safety of members of the public should have their entire duty time open to public scrutiny.

Take shop workers as an example. While they don't sell tickets, shops function by enticing the public into their premises, through marketing, advertising, window displays, etc. While members of the public are on the premises, the shop staff are responsible for assisting evacuation in the event of a fire. If there should be a fire, do you think everything the staff said or did while they were on duty that day be available for public scrutiny? Even things the investigators don't deem pertinent? Just because they were serving the public?

Sorry, I just don't agree.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: art
Posted 2013-03-20 04:39:19 and read 10078 times.

Just a loose translation for those who do not speak French:

Wikipedia:

Deux civils et un journaliste des DNA, ayant fait des recherches à leur propre initiative, découvrent les survivants et la carcasse de l’appareil. Ils informent les gendarmes de l'emplacement ;

2 members of the public and a jounalist who have been searching of their own accord discover the survivors and the remains of the aircraft. They inform the police of the location

the official report excerpt :

Un rescapé valide a pu rejoindre la route et indiquer l'emplacement de l'épave, ce qui a permis l'intervention d'un groupe de gendarmerie mobile, qui a rejoint l'épave à 22h35.

A survivor still able to walk managed to reach a road and indicate the site which enabled a group of motorised police to intervene, reaching the site at 2235 hrs

A bit different!

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-20 05:02:39 and read 10046 times.

On the thread's main subject - the accident itself - this NASA analysis impressed me quite a lot. It basically says that pilots nowadays are not trained to deal with stalls - not even in simulators. And that, as I've suspected from the first, there was no 'Angle of Attack' gauge on the instrument panel - apparently it's an 'optional extra' on the A330, not 'basic equipment,' and AF447 didn't have one.

"AF447 enters icing. PF reduces thrust for passenger comfort. Ice crystals block all three pitot probes, sending erratic data to computers, which impose ―Alternate Law‖ to disconnect autopilot, and cancel automatic stall protection. Many warnings appear on Electronic Centralized Aircraft Monitoring (ECAMS) display. Green needles on Flight Director (FD) disappear and then reappear, calling for climb. Airspeed indication climbs also due to erroneous data. Confused by conflicting cues, PF raises aircraft pitch to climb.

"Unknown to the crew, the actual speed of the A330 now drops dangerously close to stall, in conditions the crew has never trained for. Manual controllability is poor in the thin air, and AF447 climbs 2,000 ft. in seconds under still-reduced thrust. The aircraft is about to stall, but the pilots struggle to interpret many cockpit cues and cannot comprehend actual state.

"Onboard Angle-of-Attack (AOA) sensors alert the computer to impending stall AOA (critical angle between the aircraft path and the relative wind). In the mishap aircraft, AOA was not displayed to the pilots, only the computers.Impending stall AOA would trigger an aural tone and red MASTER CAUTION light.

"Still confused, the crew tries to control the flight path. Flight Director needles disappear and re-appear, this time in vertical speed mode, not altitude capture mode; pitch down is called for and PNF says, ―according to all three you’re climbing. PF reduces pitch but does not descend.

"ECAMS cues and classroom training would imply the need for the Airbus/Air France emergency procedure “Unreliable Airspeed Indication” but the crew still fights to understand what is wrong and keep the plane from apparently overspeeding. Actual airspeed decays for 46 seconds from autopilot disconnect until the STALL warning tone sounds for 34 seconds. The cockpit is now saturated with sound and visual alerts,but only the tone warns of approach to stall. The aircraft would have encountered aerodynamic stall buffet which the crew could have misinterpreted as weather turbulence.They do not acknowledge the tone.

"Departing controlled flight into a full stall condition, still nose-up, the A330 flight control system automatically ―trims‖ the elevatorto maintain the commanded high-pitch attitude because theAlternate Law has removed stall prevention controls.Now, AF447 is stalled and configured to stay that way without an aggressive nose-down command from the pilot. When the crew increases engine thrust, the moment arm from the underwing engines only serves to force the stalled aircraft’s nose higher.

"Onboard Angle-of-Attack (AOA) sensors alert the computer to impending stall AOA (critical angle between the aircraft path and the relative wind). In the mishap aircraft, AOA was not displayed to the pilots, only the computers. Impending stall AOA would trigger an aural tone and red MASTER CAUTION light."


http://henrimarnetcornus.20minutes-blogs.fr/media/00/02/1749001823.pdf

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airmagnac
Posted 2013-03-20 05:15:30 and read 9997 times.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 172):

There are 3 seperate aspects being discussed here :
1) The safety investigation, which aims to understand the global failure of the system, and propose solutions
2) The judicial investigation, which aims to identify individual faults and aportion blame accordingly
3) Explanations for the public

The safety investigation (which is not an isolated nationalistic work, but a collaborative work among many experts from different fields and nationalities) can release information it judges necessary to understand the safety aspects. Information judged superflous to safety concerns is not released.
The judicial instituion an release any further information it judges necessary to understand the individual responsabilities. At some point it involves an open trial to discuss the evidence
The Public Relations endeavour is currently not explicitly covered by anyone, but if it was, the aim would be to condense exisitng information, not add further data deemed unnecessary to understand the problem

The necessary info is publicly released. I disagree with your assertion that there is no downside to releasing the rest, but even if there really is nothing to lose, I ask again : what is there to be gained?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 174):
Please send me some links to whatever literature shows that either (1) times of low-stress, low-skill, repetitive tasks are good times to judge fatigue effects and (2) a few minutes of dozing automatically ameliorates fatigue.

A publicly available, peer- and expert-reviewed document has been offered. It states that there are signs indicating that they were not excessivly fatigued, and there is no evidence to show that the crew's cognitive abilities were significantly impaired by fatigue. The report goes on to explain the behaviours by other human factors. IOW fatigue is not necessary to explain their actions.
You disagree with this, based on your personnal views of fatigue effects related to routine monitoring activities and what dozing may or may not do, and based on a single indirect quote from a confidential report.
So basically, after rejecting a reviewed paper for unclear reasons, you are asking me to provide other papers of the same nature. If I do so, how can I judge whether the documents I provide will be acceptable to you or not ? IOW which criteria do you apply to decide if a document is valid or not ?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 174):
To be clear, I'm not arguing that they were fatigued. I don't think what's in the report permits us to draw a conclusion one way or the other.

It's difficult to translate precisely the original version of the report : L’enregistrement du CVR permet cependant de faire ressortir que l’équipage de conduite ne présentait pas de signes de fatigue objectifs
The English version uses the verb "to show", but I find that a bit stronger than what is written in French. "Faire ressortir" would be more like "indicates".
What I'm getting at is that the report does indeed not demonstrate they were not fatigued, but to repeat what I said above, it states that there are signs indicating that they were not excessivly fatigued and goes on to explain the behaviours by other human factors. From there, it is a matter of heuristics (Occam's Razor) : the complicated notion of fatigue is not required to explain what happened, therefore it is left out.

This does not mean that fatigue did not play a role. It just means that you can't positively demonstrate it did.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-20 05:19:39 and read 9995 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 187):

I don't know what your aversion to reading the BEA report is, but there have been at least 3 a.net threads explaining why an AOA would have been at best marginally useful and at worst dangerously confusing (they are spurious / don't work below 60 kts). The crew had ample stall warning - which they ignored.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-20 05:28:04 and read 9964 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 181):
extract from the Wiki summary

That says it all, really.

I prefer the analysis and conclusions of an expert investigative authority with participants/observers from a dozen countries over the sensationalist posting of a journalist whose fact-checking is limited to Wiki (which got it blatantly wrong).

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-20 05:35:52 and read 9947 times.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 188):
You disagree with this, based on your personnal views of fatigue effects related to routine monitoring activities and what dozing may or may not do, and based on a single indirect quote from a confidential report.

I deal with human factors literature on an almost daily basis, and with human factors literature on fatigue on probably a weekly to several-times-a-month basis. I'm admittedly not trained in human factors, but I'm pretty conversant in the field.

I think you will not find any literature suggesting that cruise flight is a good time to judge fatigue effects, and the literature you will find on dozing is decidedly mixed. (A solid, but brief, nap can help more than most people realize, but I don't think that's what is described in the report; maybe you can help me with that since I don't read French very well.)

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 188):
This does not mean that fatigue did not play a role. It just means that you can't positively demonstrate it did.

We're on the same page here. But to me, the evidence they cite that purportedly indicates that fatigue did not play a role is such weak evidence that it's hardly worth citing. To me, it would have been better to say "we really don't know about fatigue and it's not really relevant to our analysis since other issues explain the human factors deficiencies in the cockpit."

[Edited 2013-03-20 05:38:40]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-20 05:37:03 and read 9949 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 189):

  

Furthermore, I don't believe it is by accident that NAV20 implies that Airbus is unique in not providing an AoA indicator as standard on a modern airliner.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 187):
It basically says that pilots nowadays are not trained to deal with stalls - not even in simulators.

The crew of AF447 did have some time to put into practice their training for dealing with the approach to the stall*. The practical reasons that full stalls are not trained have been very widely discussed. It's not just a case of cutting corners.

Here is a small sample of the discussions that have taken place here on the subject:

BEA Recommendations - AF447 (by tommytoyz Jul 5 2012 in Tech Ops)
BEA Recommendations - AF447 Part 2 (by srbmod Jul 29 2012 in Tech Ops)
AF 447 - Sims Misleading? (by tommytoyz Apr 2 2012 in Tech Ops)

* Edit: For example, they had the opportunity to decrease the pitch angle during the aural "STALL... STALL..." warning.

[Edited 2013-03-20 05:42:19]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-20 05:39:18 and read 9935 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 189):
an AOA would have been at best marginally useful and at worst dangerously confusing

Probably because I mostly flew gliders myself, Kaiarahi. The AOA was probably the instrument I used most. Getting the nose too high for too long - and therefore stalling - could have been fatal in a glider; and apparently proved to be just as fatal in AF447?

And it's perfectly clear from the available evidence that the AF447 pilots thought they were in a dive, not a stall - all the way down to the water. I really don't see why an instrument that told them that they were actually in an extreme nose-up attitude would only have been 'marginally useful? IMO it would probably have saved all those lives?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-20 05:48:43 and read 9910 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 193):
And it's perfectly clear from the available evidence that the AF447 pilots thought they were in a dive

A dive? Can you provide evidence of that? Later in the event they knew the PF was trying to climb but they were actually falling. That's not the same as a dive.

I'll briefly repeat something that has been asked time and time again in the previous threads: Only the airspeed indications were faulty for a short time yet they didn't seem to trust any of the others, so why would they have trusted another instrument?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-20 06:00:43 and read 9875 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 193):
I really don't see why an instrument that told them that they were actually in an extreme nose-up attitude would only have been 'marginally useful?

Because as you have read on previous threads, because as cited several times in the technical analysis, because as cited several times in the BEA reports -

a separate AOA indicator would not have told them they were actually in an extreme nose-up attitude.

A separate AOA indicator would have

(1) fluctuated wildly during the period of the fall,
(2) it would have displayed no AOA reading for almost half the time,
(3) the crew ignored several good instrument readings repeatedly during the descent.

The crew had valid airspeed, pitch and VSI readings for almost the same times that they would have had a valid AOA reading.

I understand the importance of an AOA for a glider pilot, and for landing on an aircraft carrier; however, neither of the pilots in the cockpit had that training.

Another erratic instrument would have made no difference in this accident.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 179):
it literally needs someone to punch the saturated guy out of his/her seat

Unfortunately, the pilot in the left hand seat seemed determined to prove his superiority by not helping the guy in the right seat solve the problem.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-20 06:00:54 and read 9883 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 192):
Furthermore, I don't believe it is by accident that NAV20 implies that Airbus is unique in not providing an AoA indicator as standard on a modern airliner.

I merely said that the A330 doesn't have one as standard, David L? For all I know, the other manufacturers don't provide one either? But, IMO, any that don't are making a big mistake?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-20 07:13:59 and read 9795 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 187):

On the thread's main subject - the accident itself - this NASA analysis impressed me quite a lot.

One of the reasons I am not very keen on providing links ( btw, you forgot to mention that the NASA link was originally mine - and clearly stated as a NASA work - on post # 130 ).
Result, out of one very good made-for-the-larger-audience summary by one NASA engineer ( that sort of title is enough for someone like me as to the author's competence ) you chose just one aspect of the accident : the absence of an AoA indicator for your demonstration.
I think that we covered this aspect at length.

What I see is time and time again, the only thing achieved by the selective quoting is to reinforce my idea that providing technical infos to the public is dangerous.

Come on, Nav ! Read that document with open eyes and an open heart and see my aim in linking to it : the author, although undoubtedly trying hard for objectivity reaches conclusions that differ from the BEA's - and I guess, the NTSB version - only for cultural reasons.
I could really like that person, especially when he can write a final conclusion which contains this gem of wisdom on human factoirs :
"There is no single right answer to the issue of human control versus machine control in
human-machine interfaces. But as the need for human intervention follows the value of
the system, the need for high-fidelity experience in compound failure scenarios, not just
a single component or feature, becomes essential to timely action.
"

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 191):
(A solid, but brief, nap can help more than most people realize, but I don't think that's what is described in the report; maybe you can help me with that since I don't read French very well.)

The report cites the captain as offering the PF an opportunity to have a 20 minutes or so nap, which the PF declined as he didn't feel tired (it's in the English version )... It's one of the reasons, along with the FO1 saying that "... the quality of his rest was "mpedium" as he basically dozed (j'ai somnolé ...)

So according to your own words about how much just dozing can help, where are we going ?

So we're back to the " I didn't sleep very well last night... I just had one hour a while ago... That's not enough...", are we not ?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-20 07:16:16 and read 9771 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 193):
I really don't see why an instrument that told them that they were actually in an extreme nose-up attitude would only have been 'marginally useful?

AOA does NOT measure pitch. It measures the angle between the airfoil chord and the air mass through which the aircraft is moving.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 193):
And it's perfectly clear from the available evidence that the AF447 pilots thought they were in a dive,

What evidence? There's nothing of the kind in the BEA report. As has been suggested multiple times, maybe you should read the "available evidence". It's pretty clear that the PM knew they were stalled.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-20 07:31:13 and read 9732 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 196):
For all I know, the other manufacturers don't provide one either?

An important point, don't you think?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 196):
But, IMO, any that don't are making a big mistake?

In what way do you disagree with the reasons they have not been included as standard in most modern airliners?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-20 07:39:11 and read 9706 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 197):
So according to your own words about how much just dozing can help, where are we going ?

Two points:

1) Dozing doesn't help. Good quality sleep helps, even if it's of short duration. In English, the word dozing implies poor quality sleep, but that's why I had asked about the connotations of the French word used.

2) I don't know that there is any evidence in the report that fatigue was a problem. It's just that there isn't much evidence that fatigue wasn't a problem either.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-20 08:23:18 and read 9637 times.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 176):
That seems to be the rough equivalent here of a CVR transcript, which is the issue at hand. What is the information that authorities have about a car crash that should be kept quiet for privacy's sake?

The equivalent of a CVR transcript would be one of these dashboard cameras that seem to be ubiquitous in some parts of the world. If you were involved in a traffic accident would you want the previous 30 minutes or hour of conversation between you and someone in the car with you printed in the newspapers?

Quoting dfambro (Reply 176):
I certainly don't think the dead should get special treatment because they are dead.

Everyone should be treated with decency. Yes, this may mean something different in the case of persons who no longer can speak for themselves. If the captain of AF447 were still here he could tell us in an instant what he meant by those few words. He's not and now we find some journalists taking adavantage of this to be off on a new crusade and sell more magazines, not to mention this thread with >200 posts having covered not only the AF447 accident (massively covered in several previous threads) but also Concorde, GPWS, AOA vs pitch angle, Air Inter, road accidents (my fault), etc., etc.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-20 08:28:47 and read 9640 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 200):
1) Dozing doesn't help. Good quality sleep helps, even if it's of short duration. In English, the word dozing implies poor quality sleep, but that's why I had asked about the connotations of the French word used.

It's somewhat ambiguous. "Somnoler" could mean "doze", but it could also mean "nap". However, the captain specifically asked the PM about the quality of his rest (good CRM!) and the reply was "médium - j'ai somnolé" ("medium - I dozed" or "medium - I napped"). I would add that the PM had very extensive long-haul experience (considerably more than the captain), and therefore very extensive experience in self-assessing his awareness and capacity.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-20 08:37:35 and read 9620 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 201):
now we find some journalists taking adavantage of this to be off on a new crusade and sell more magazines

Just like the stories widely circulated by journalists a few months ago that the captain's female friend was on board. The insinuation (even explicitly stated in some stories) was that he was slow getting back to the flight deck because he was humping her in the crew rest. The public sucks this shit up - even my wife, who is an educated and astute reader but does not follow aviation closely, had the impression in the back of her mind that the captain was distracted by his friend.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-20 09:01:51 and read 9577 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 200):
I don't know that there is any evidence in the report that fatigue was a problem. It's just that there isn't much evidence that fatigue wasn't a problem either.

Although we do know from the CVR extracts cited by BEA that the captain was attentive to the issue, suggesting that FO2 could take a 20 minute nap if he wished, and inquiring about the quality of FO1's rest.

Curiously (at least to me - maybe there's something I'm missing that Pihero can address), the captain suggested that FO2 could take his nap after FO1 came back to the cockpit. But at that time FO2 (right seat) would have been PF and, according to AF procedures in place at the time (since changed), FOs were not authorized or trained to be PF in the left seat - in other words, the only person on the flight deck authorized to be PF would have been napping. But maybe I'm missing something.

[Edited 2013-03-20 09:02:21]

Incidentally, this section of the report (s.1.16.7) illustrates the challenge of relying on translations.

The English version reads "Captain was concerned with the state of fatigue of the copilot in the right seat".
The French (authoritative) reads "le commandant de bord se préoccupe de l'état de fatigue ...".
The French could mean "concerned", but more likely means more neutrally "the captain interested himself in the state of fatigue ..." (inelegant, but I think better captures the sense of the French).


[Edited 2013-03-20 09:15:01]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: art
Posted 2013-03-20 09:08:36 and read 9553 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 189):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 187):

I don't know what your aversion to reading the BEA report is,

I can't get it to download either.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 189):
but there have been at least 3 a.net threads explaining why an AOA would have been at best marginally useful and at worst dangerously confusing (they are spurious / don't work below 60 kts). The crew had ample stall warning - which they ignored.

If you are losing indicated altitude and believe your altimeter reading what could be responsible for that?

- the air through which you are flying is descending?

- you have a nose-down attitude?

- lift generated by the aircraft is less than its mass?

An AOA indicator may not work below 60 knots but an artificial horizon is gyro-based, isn't it, and would be unaffected by air speed. IIRC at one point the pilot flying the aircraft corrected a wing that was dropping. Would he not have done that using an artificial horizon instrument? Additionally, at one point one of the pilots believed the aircraft had excess airspeed IIRC. If so, I do not understand why neither of the pilots on the flight deck noticed the unusual attitude of the aircraft in the pitch axis. (Even if one was mistaken in how many degrees positive pitch the aircraft should have, why did the other not notice?)

[Edited 2013-03-20 09:11:40]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-20 09:22:33 and read 9513 times.

Quoting art (Reply 205):
I can't get it to download either.

Are you clicking on the tick mark under the language flag?

Quoting art (Reply 205):
An AOA indicator may not work below 60 knots but an artificial horizon is gyro-based, isn't it, and would be unaffected by air speed. IIRC at one point the pilot flying the aircraft corrected a wing that was dropping. Would he not have done that using an artificial horizon instrument? Additionally, at one point one of the pilots believed the aircraft had excess airspeed IIRC. If so, I do not understand why neither of the pilots on the flight deck noticed the unusual attitude of the aircraft in the pitch axis. (Even if one was mistaken in how many degrees positive pitch the aircraft should have, why did the other not notice?)

That's the point. The procedure for loss of speeds is pitch and power. They had everything they needed. You don't need an AOA. In this case, they flew the wrong pitch. And they never ran the loss of speeds checklist. And neither the PM nor the captain called out the unwinding alti.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-20 10:10:26 and read 9405 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 195):
The crew had valid airspeed, pitch and VSI readings

Minor quibble - the VSI was pinned at max (they were actually descending faster than it could indicate). But they still had the unwinding alti.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airmagnac
Posted 2013-03-20 13:01:36 and read 9243 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 200):
I don't know that there is any evidence in the report that fatigue was a problem. It's just that there isn't much evidence that fatigue wasn't a problem either.

As you mentioned, we're in agreement up to here. It's afterwards that we diverge. As I understand, you seem to think that the BEA should have explicitly stated that they cannot conclude due to a lack of evidence, and by default consider fatigue to have been a factor. What they did instead is mention elements which **indicate** that fatigue is not a major factor, and move on to explain the crew behaviour by other factors.
Note that by "BEA", we're talking about :
- a human factors group consisting of "three BEA investigators who specialise in human factors, two A330 pilots - one a test pilot - plus a risk-analysis psychiatrist and a human factors aviation consultant".
- other senior investigators who probably know a thing or two
- a rather large number of appointed observers, probably trained investigators
- a number of review panels from fellow investigation boards, certification authorities, OEM(s) & system suppliers, airline(s), pilot unions & associations, etc...
And those are just the people that intervened before the official release. Anyone is still free to officially complain after the publication.

Now, it is perfectly possible that all these guys overlooked some things, I'm not saying they're perfect. But such large scale sharing of the report is the best way we have of making sure it is correct. So when you disagree with the report, you're disagreeing with all these somewhat competent people and an entire validation process.
Which means you're going to need very precise arguments, which can be shared and understood by others to initiate a second round of discussions. And this, no matter how competent you may be (and I'm sure you are, far more than myself). Your thoughts about dozing or boring activities are just too vague to be clearly understood by anyone else than yourself, which is why I qualified them as "personal opinion" (without any negative connotation about your skills)

Very clear arguments are especially needed here, as you are accusing this report and the one regarding Concorde of making rather major reasoning mistakes. So major that the whole validation process by peer-review would have to be utterly corrupt and insufficient.
This begs the question : What documents can I provide you about fatigue that you will deem acceptable, if peer- and expert-reviews are not enough ?

More generally (and not just for Cubsrule) :
---- if the BEA reports are not trustworthy, than what is ?
---- If we cannot consider what is in those reports as true, then what do we need to do to rectify the situation ?
---- Is it really just a matter of releasing a few more vague quotes from a recording ? will that actually change your view on whether or not the final reports are rigourous ?

More concretely :
For Nav20 : Why do you consider random articles found via Google as trustworthy sources of information, but refuse to read the report ?
For Ben Sandilands : what is it that Wikipedia has and that the BEA does not, that makes it a better source of information in your opinion ?

I'm asking this very seriously, because as you would say Ben, it is the core issue.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-20 13:05:00 and read 9252 times.

After more than one hours sleep but waking up to a massive number of unrelated email messages and special link communications one that stands out is a reminder from a confidant that there are managements that believe pilots are there to fly planes, and managements that believe pilots are there to save planes.

I think that goes to the heart not just of the automation debate, but the quality of training debate, which was given fresh impetus in the US after the Colgan at Buffalo crash.

Some managements think that pilots are almost superfluous in that automation does things better and poses less risk to the asset, which they see as the aircraft.

Other managements, I think wiser managements, see automation as a set of tools that can facilitate faster recovery from an unexpected situations, but there needs to be vigilance and oversight as to how well automation does what is expected from it.

It needs to be constantly evaluated and where necessary updated or amended.

Thinking through the evidence before the Senate in this country on training, and especially the arguments heard in the US post Colgan, the only benefit arising from terrible accidents in modern airlines such as AF447 and the Continental Colgan crash, may have been to remind accountants or marketing gurus that real people, with real skills are needed to fly airliners no matter how automated or not, and that training isn't about 'how to fly' as much as 'how to save.'

There is a divide in the thinking of airline executives into which airliners, and lives, can fall to their doom. It is the divide between short term cost cutting, and long term investments in better equipment and better training.

It is the same divide that sees automation as a proxy for simplifying the demands on managements, and resents any suggestion that the improvements it brings also requires managements to improve their grasp of the technical sides of aviation.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-20 13:12:18 and read 9224 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 209):

I really don't understand how this relates to the topic at hand (AF447).

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-20 13:17:00 and read 9215 times.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 208):
As I understand, you seem to think that the BEA should have explicitly stated that they cannot conclude due to a lack of evidence, and by default consider fatigue to have been a factor.

No, not at all. I don't think they should consider fatigue a factor because that would require guessing, where some of the other human factors explanations that they considered and accepted would not.

In other words, we have human factors issues that BEA considered including poor training, excessive auditory warnings, poor CRM, possible ergonomic issues with seat position, etc. where there is either good literature support (e.g. with auditory warnings) or good physical evidence (e.g. seat position).

Where there is so much that can be concretely examined, why speculate about fatigue? The conclusion on fatigue--no matter how smart or qualified the people who came to it are--is speculation. There is no literature cited. There is no objective evidence cited. As we've discussed, in French it's not even clear what the "dozing" comment means. This stands in stark contrast to the discussion on auditory warnings a few pages later, which has seven papers, at least five of which appear to be peer-reviewed, cited.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 208):
This begs the question : What documents can I provide you about fatigue that you will deem acceptable, if peer- and expert-reviews are not enough ?

As I said, I'd like to see the literature that demonstrates that either of the pieces of evidence cited is a good indicator of whether fatigue was an issue.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 208):
Your thoughts about dozing or boring activities are just too vague to be clearly understood by anyone else than yourself, which is why I qualified them as "personal opinion" (without any negative connotation about your skills)

You're not suggesting that it's easier to manage cruise flight than it is to manage an emergency while fatigued, are you? We ought to at least be able to agree on this point.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 208):
Very clear arguments are especially needed here, as you are accusing this report and the one regarding Concorde of making rather major reasoning mistakes.

Where did I make any accusations concerning the Concorde report? My observation was that EADS should have been charged, just as Continental was, but that's not a BEA issue.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-20 13:31:17 and read 9190 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 210):
I really don't understand how this relates to the topic at hand (AF447).

I was just about to say the same. I'm not sure how it relates to any of the points raised in this thread. Perhaps it was posted in the wrong thread by mistake?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-20 13:57:25 and read 9143 times.

Wiki is not my source for anything. The only reason to offer a link to Wiki is that it can be an entry point to more important reference points, as usually found in abundance at the end of each Wiki entry. If any of us had the time to engage in detailed research particularly anything earlier than the mid 80s, which is often the limit of some data bases, you would actually need to go to a physical library and peruse the bound volumes.

Some examples. The Fairfax digital data base is unreliable before 1985, and the Google type news readers are not only hard to use at present, but only include one edition of the major newspapers of the world, not the two, three or four different editions published over a 4-10 hour period. Many print publications that collapsed after the on-line age cut in are not adequately or comprehensively accessible on line. On my own blog I have at times had to resort to photos of large broadsheet scrapbook pages to reproduce stories that only appeared in one edition of the Sydney Morning Herald in the 1970s and 1960s.

In the case of the Air Inter detour, the quotes that Pihero correctly picks up are straight from the full reports, and were labelled as such on the Wiki pages, and could be reached faster via Wiki than visiting the Bibliothèque François Mitterrand.

I guess that like many on this forum, I can't give all of my time to it, but it is a fascinating and good place to visit. Some seem to come here as brand warriors, some come here to support causes, and so forth. I actually came here to tell the story of the Air-India 707 crash on Mt Blanc, since a friend who knew I had encountered the much later recovery effort said when I was a climber and there was a thread on missing airliners on this forum so I joined.

In this discussion as in the more fiercely contested ones in Australia concerning our safety regulator and safety investigator, my interest is full disclosure.

The question was asked earlier, how was my comment about automation relevant to AF447?

That's an odd question. If AF447 doesn't raise issues about automation, nothing ever will!

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-20 14:06:33 and read 9118 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 213):
The question was asked earlier, how was my comment about automation relevant to AF447?

That's an odd question. If AF447 doesn't raise issues about automation, nothing ever will!

As best I could tell, your comment was about:

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 209):
automation as a proxy for simplifying the demands on managements

I still can't see the relevance to alleged fatigue on the flight deck of AF447.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-20 14:07:20 and read 9119 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 213):
That's an odd question. If AF447 doesn't raise issues about automation, nothing ever will!

It's a rather abrupt change in direction, nevertheless. Modern automation is a topic that has been gathering momentum for a while now - but not in this thread.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-20 14:52:11 and read 9058 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 211):
Where there is so much that can be concretely examined, why speculate about fatigue?

Because an accident investigation should not leave any potential factor out. In terms of **human** factors, especially on long haul sectors, fatigue should - and is - always at the back of the minds of all concerned, aircrews included.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 211):
The conclusion on fatigue--no matter how smart or qualified the people who came to it are--is speculation. There is no literature cited. There is no objective evidence cited.

Maybe not. There are, though some very factual observations which could be made on the performance of the actors : how they did their routine tasks, how far ahead oif the aircraft they were (planning for emergency, emergency airfield diversions... etc...
I guess we covered so much ground that the original subject of this thread was about **speculation** - by non specialised intervening journo - on the state of fatigue of the captain leading to some accusations of cover-ups and conspiracy by some posters.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 211):
As we've discussed, in French it's not even clear what the "dozing" comment means

You are confusing two things : the French report, using precise French legally-approved words is perfectly clear : we know what the writers wrote and what the proof readers did and what the whole investigation crowd accepted.
But here Kaiarahi is trying to get non-French forumers to get to the appreciation of the French text -and he's doing a great job of it.
As for someone who does routinely translations bask and forth between technical French and English, it's not an easy undertaking.
Moreover, there are in so many languages concepts that are untranslatable and get into French as a matter of fact, with their original language meaning. As it happens, the concept of **napping** in the aviation sense is now a French word, included in the OPS manual as **Nap**, the senses given by **repos**, **sieste**... being not precise enough.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airmagnac
Posted 2013-03-20 16:32:51 and read 8939 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 211):
The conclusion on fatigue--no matter how smart or qualified the people who came to it are--is speculation

So we're mostly in agreement I think, except for this point. I've already explained my POV.
Should we agree to disagree on this one ?  
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 211):
Where did I make any accusations concerning the Concorde report? My observation was that EADS should have been charged, just as Continental was, but that's not a BEA issue.


In a few posts around reply 112 you suggested that BEA and subsequently the French judicial system covered up for Aerospatiale/EADS when it was "obvious there were design issues" (reply 88). And go on to explain that the event should have been foreseen, in your opinion.
My point is not to open that discussion again, but just to insist that in the case of such reviewed reports, we must provide detailed and objective arguments. You, me and anyone else.


Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 213):
In the case of the Air Inter detour, the quotes that Pihero correctly picks up are straight from the full reports, and were labelled as such on the Wiki pages, and could be reached faster via Wiki than visiting the Bibliothèque François Mitterrand.

Ben, you used wiki to throw mud against the French aviation organisations. Justifying it by "but it's quicker !" is already hardly acceptable, especially for a journalist who should know the importance of using verified sources. But it took me all of 15 seconds to type "bea report mont st odile" in a research bar, get a link to the BEA website and access the report in html. From there, another 10 seconds to press control-F and do a search on "recherches".

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 213):
In this discussion [...] my interest is full disclosure

Full disclosure because you accuse the investigators of withholding crucial data. And yet when you have an opportunity to go check what an investigation board actually published about an accident, you decide not to refer to the official report and to use wiki instead, for no good reason. Honestly, I don't get it.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-20 16:35:13 and read 8947 times.

Just for the record, I'm not a non specialised journo. Or non specialist journalist. According to the rules which I believe apply to all of us, nor am I hear to promote my site or writings, and with a very large six figure range of page views a month, I don't need to.

By way of background, I've reported transport since late 1960, and by an accident of history, was the Sydney Morning Herald's last shipping cadet. The first aircraft I flew in was a TAA DC-4 Skymaster in 1949 from Melbourne to Sydney, Past the Snowy Mountains, not over them. It was a gypsy childhood, as my father was a marine engineer for Messageries Maritimes, Burns Philp, Union SS, the Bank Line and so forth, and from time to time he took his children to sea sometimes just short coastal trips, sometimes epics. I was there when Airbus Industrie began, and my American relatives by coincidence also worked for Boeing, and nearly persuaded me to do so to when I first visited in the mid 60s. My focus at university was public administration and government, and my focus in transport reporting has always been more on the management and public policy and regulatory matters, and of course, consumer affairs.

I clearly take a different view to air accident investigations and freedom of information to some in the room. However I do not take issue with most of the criticisms of journalism, however shallow yet thus appropriate some of them may be. My constant point of friction with the way the fourth estate works today is that with the end of resources for investigative reporting the message is owned and invented by PR managers and marketing departments, something I resist.

AF447 had a profound effect on training and checking in some airlines in this hemisphere with large Airbus fleets.

The resolve in some is to emphasise not how to fly a plane, but how to save a plane, as it has been in at least two of them for a very long time. It is the overwhelming message that has been taken from AF447. Deal with the control issue first, diagnose the underlying cause second. Something that I might add proved critical to Qantas not just in the Learmonth A330 upset, but the 744 damaged by an failed oxygen cyclinder fortuitously near Manila Airport, and the total failure of the main electrical systems on a 744 again fortuitously near Bangkok, traced to a sink blocked with coffee grinds in a galley seeping into a junction box area.

I think the industry needs to be very careful about nuanced or in some way restricted accident reports.

CRM and automation were vital issues in AF447. I believe there will be some further developments in this in the coming year, and I'm not relying on Wiki for this, but briefings both public and private in a number of locations. I may even meet one or two of you at some of those 'events'.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-20 17:42:20 and read 8860 times.

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 218):
It is the overwhelming message that has been taken from AF447. Deal with the control issue first, diagnose the underlying cause second

Isn't that clear from the report available to the public?

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 217):
Ben, you used wiki to throw mud against the French aviation organisations. Justifying it by "but it's quicker !" is already hardly acceptable

I've stayed out of the meat of that discussion but, I have to say, I'm far from impressed.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-20 18:05:56 and read 8839 times.

David L,

Which I acknowledged. I must say, as a newcomer here, that sometimes the discussion loses its way, and on this occasion, I didn't help by not maintaining enough selective focus.

Let me distill it. If anything is withheld from such reports, it is reasonable to ask why, and who benefited?

The answers may be benign. They may prove not to be benign. But the questions are valid.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-20 18:08:42 and read 8849 times.

Ben,
First of all, the quqlificative of **journo** didn't apply to you, but your colleagues at the Point. TRhey are well-known, as well as their ageda is.
Since we've started thisn thread, it is obvious to a few of us that-as you say - "...you take a different view to air investigation...." and as far as I'm concerned, you have every right to your choice.
Allow us toidisagree on your idea of promoting flight safety, which is to try and destroy reputation, blacken people's names and companies'reputation with a total disregard for the damages you - and your friends - could do to the very subject of this thread : Safety.

As you made a reference to your blog, allow me to disagree on
1/- methods : Sensationalist titles : one example being the banning of Air France on all non-EU airspaces. Why the restriction ? Shouldn't EU citizens be protected from AirFrance as much as Australians - for instance ? Are they such second-rate world people that they do not deserve that protection ?
2/- aims : Once again, for someone who promotes air safety, why the public destruction of two civil servants in Australia who are part of the institutions that made your country one of the most respected and successful in an outsdtanding air safety culture ? Plus the fact that the arguments of that public lynching don't alter one bit the findings of the accident report.?
The same methods, I find them here. Although I proved beyond any doubt that someone had doctored in the wiiki article some of the events that happened on Mont Sainte Odile, you keep on saying, without any acknowledgement of the paragraphs I cited that "... it can be an entry point to more important reference points,, references you never made.

The fact is that I admire your technique : some passing comments, often unrelated to the subject but could have a lasting impression on your readers'mlind
See this

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 181):
I am at fault for mentioning Air Infer at all. It was not a distinguished carrier, although I acquired a weakness for the Caravelles and Mercures it operated, because they weren't 'ordinary' airliners but had personality and character.

Air Inter was a very distinguished airline, in many ways a pioneer of modern air transport : the pricing, the no-frills policy, the yield management - before the thing was coined - all are the precursors of to-days' LCCs. A pioneer on all weather operations ( the first ever passenger carrying cat III landing which became routine )... When the A320 started its career, Air Inter had a far better dispatch reliability rate than Air France or Lufthansa, thanks to an enginnering department that was second to none. An operation that achieved more than 90% on-time departure rate... There was a lot more to that airline than a quaint use of exotic airplanes. That you chose to overlook these achievements is certainly not one idea you should really be proud of... But that's just my opinion.

I fear I could tax ManuCH's patience on this ranting. And I thank him for the understanding he showed and the freedom he leaved us on a subject that covered an enormous space.

Regards

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-20 18:29:49 and read 8803 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 216):
Because an accident investigation should not leave any potential factor out. In terms of **human** factors, especially on long haul sectors, fatigue should - and is - always at the back of the minds of all concerned, aircrews included.

I agree that fatigue should have been examined, and it was. To me, though, the conclusion was unsupported and would have been better not made.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 216):
There are, though some very factual observations which could be made on the performance of the actors : how they did their routine tasks, how far ahead oif the aircraft they were (planning for emergency, emergency airfield diversions... etc...

Again, what literature supports the notion that the performance in cruise flight is an accurate barometer of how much or how little the pilots were affected by fatigue?

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 217):
In a few posts around reply 112 you suggested that BEA and subsequently the French judicial system covered up for Aerospatiale/EADS when it was "obvious there were design issues" (reply 88). And go on to explain that the event should have been foreseen, in your opinion.

You're a bit confused on my point, and that's likely my fault. My reference to BEA in Reply No. 112 was to BEA's actions before the crash and more specifically in the early 1980s, when NTSB tried to draw their attention to repeated tire failures. My admittedly imprecise comments about EADS being "investigated" in Reply No. 90 were intended to refer to the criminal investigation, not BEA, but that was not at all clear from the context.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airtechy
Posted 2013-03-20 18:34:59 and read 8789 times.

Once an accident report is published and finalized a list of recommendations usually appears...in the case of the NTSB reports after the probable causes are listed. In the case of AF447, have any of the recommendations of the BEA been implemented? The pitots I believe were in the process of being changed for improved versions even before the wreckage was found.

I would hope at a bare minimum the pilots would have been retrained in how not to stall an airplane and how to recover one if they do. However, the issue of increased liability will arise if Airbus is forced to change the hardware or software although if you believe how the pilots seemingly reacted to some of the instrumentation they might have to.

The issue of rudder reversal on the Boeing 737's is an example of a hardware fault that was initially blamed on pilots. It took three accidents before the real cause was recognized and a fix implemented.

Love them or hate them, I still believe non-tracking controls contributed to this accident. Tracking controls don't require "buttons" to determine whose in control and how they are controlling. That applies to yokes and joysticks.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-20 18:41:52 and read 8786 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 222):
Again, what literature supports the notion that the performance in cruise flight is an accurate barometer of how much or how little the pilots were affected by fatigue?

Quite a lot. It's a pity it wasn't cited - but that's perhaps a function of "insider expertise" in assuming that informed readers are aware of it. Again, one has to bear in mind the primary target audience of the report, which is aviation professionals.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-20 18:43:02 and read 8792 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 222):
Again, what literature supports the notion that the performance in cruise flight is an accurate barometer of how much or how little the pilots were affected by fatigue?

As you seem interested in the subject, start with this CAA paper on crew fatigue
A good summing up on the subject.
When you finish, I can provide more.







Edit : this post crossed Kaiarahi's.
I hope you will understand our position, both on translation and interpretation.

[Edited 2013-03-20 18:46:34]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-20 18:48:54 and read 8770 times.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 223):
I still believe non-tracking controls contributed to this accident.

Obviously, you can believe what you want. However, Airbus conducted very extensive pilot testing with linked and non-linked sidesticks during the A320 development program and the overwhelming preference was for the configuration that was adopted.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-20 18:57:15 and read 8758 times.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 223):
have any of the recommendations of the BEA been implemented?

Many were in the process of being implemented before the FDR and CVR were ever found. Others have been addressed. AF447 has been a huge learning experience for the industry in many areas.

There were two specific recommendations in the second interim report. There were expansions of those two and two other recommendation groups in the third interim report.

The final report added three recommendations on the SAR process (a very critical area in my opinion), one on the ATC accountability process (another major problem brought to light by AF447 in my opinion), one on the recovery process, one on oversight of the operator, two related to ergonomics and feedback, one related to pilot training, one related to simulator training.

The report also described changes made by Air France, Airbus and EASA after the accident, but before the release of the final report.

These were the steps taken by Air France prior to the final report

Quote:
5.1.3 Crew training

Flight simulator training

Additional unreliable airspeed session:

ˆˆ Summer 2009 (A320, A330/A340).

ˆˆ Session booklet and briefing: technical reminders, human factors and Threat and Error Management (TEM) aspects.
ˆˆ
Revision of the emergency manoeuvre, on take-off and in cruise phase.

ˆˆ High altitude flight in alternate law.

ˆˆ Approach to stall with triggering of STALL warning.

ˆˆ Landing without airspeed indications.

ˆˆ Related briefings (all flight crew):
....Weather radar
....Ice crystals.
Quoting airtechy (Reply 223):
I would hope at a bare minimum the pilots would have been retrained in how not to stall an airplane and how to recover one if they do.

I assume you are aware that in the initial interim report - some 30+ near identical incidents were found when BEA asked airlines for data on loss of air speed incidents, and a few airlines supplied data to BEA.

AF447 was not a unique accident at the primary failure point. Crews had recovered from such a situation several times. Including crews that had to hand fly the rest of a trans-oceanic flight.

The issue for AF447 is not to not stall the aircraft, it is to remember the correct memory items, and for the PNF to run the checklist.

There was a survivable issue, there was an initial incorrect application of the solution - there was absolutely no cooperation in flying the aircraft and finding the solution within the cockpit.

[Edited 2013-03-20 19:06:53]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airtechy
Posted 2013-03-20 19:00:44 and read 8753 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 226):

Obviously, you can believe what you want. However, Airbus conducted very extensive pilot testing with linked and non-linked sidesticks during the A320 development program and the overwhelming preference was for the configuration that was adopted.

I would only point out that when those tests were run none of their aircraft had been involved in accidents where the implementation of the sidesticks may have been a contributor. And now that some have been in accidents...including of course AF447....I doubt if they would want to revisit the testing for liability reasons.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-20 19:04:29 and read 8757 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 224):
Again, one has to bear in mind the primary target audience of the report, which is aviation professionals.

As I think I said a while back, my human factors experience is outside of aviation. That said, outside of aviation, we wouldn't look at a time of rote, low-stress activities to determine whether fatigue was affecting an operator. Maybe aviation is totally different, but I'd like to see the literature.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 225):
As you seem interested in the subject, start with this CAA paper on crew fatigue

This paper isn't really on point here, as it really doesn't deal with how we determine from a crew's actions that they are or are not fatigued.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-20 19:25:20 and read 8740 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 226):
Obviously, you can believe what you want. However, Airbus conducted very extensive pilot testing with linked and non-linked sidesticks during the A320 development program and the overwhelming preference was for the configuration that was adopted.

Interesting, Kaiarahi. Given that virtually all aeroplanes had had linked yokes or sticks up to that time, why was there an 'overwhelming preference' for the change? And who demonstrated the preference - pilots, designers, or whoever?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airtechy
Posted 2013-03-20 19:32:37 and read 8724 times.

One additional thought, as part of my instrument training the art of scanning the instruments was drummed into my head. This was in airplanes that had the standard "T" configuration. I would assume that both of the AF447 pilots were looking to their instrument panels to try to make sense of what the airplane was doing. Does it make any sense that the NF pilot is required to turn 90 degrees in the cockpit to determine what the PF is doing with his sidestick? If they tracked, he would know that by lightly grasping his sidestick without having to divert his attention away from his panel. Surely, he would want to know this before deciding whether to assume control.

I am aware that many pilots have had pitot failures without upsetting the aircraft. In this case, two pilots first stalled the airplane and then for unknown reasons were unable to recover. All I'm saying is that tracking controls would have more easily telegraphed to each pilot what the other was doing.

Checklists are great but should not be needed for stall recovery.....high altitude or not. And do you really think that in the time they had to recover they would have had time to find and run through a checklist? Doubtful in my opinion.

Well sorry....several points.  

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airtechy
Posted 2013-03-20 20:06:54 and read 8684 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 227):

Many were in the process of being implemented before the FDR and CVR were ever found. Others have been addressed. AF447 has been a huge learning experience for the industry in many areas.

There were two specific recommendations in the second interim report. There were expansions of those two and two other recommendation groups in the third interim report.

So basically only increased training. No changes to the airplane.....except the new pitots....that we know of.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-20 20:33:25 and read 8667 times.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 231):
Does it make any sense that the NF pilot is required to turn 90 degrees in the cockpit to determine what the PF is doing with his sidestick?

No - because he does not have to do that. He can easily see the sidestick movement without having to turn his head as much as he has to if he wants to look at the standby airspeed.

Secondly, the PNF is supposed to be troubleshooting the problem. Finding out what happened, providing checklists, checking instruments and assisting the PF with his actions. This did not occur. The PNF did nothing to help the PF.

The PNF is not supposed to be flying the aircraft, unless he chooses to take control. As noted above - he never indicated he wanted control of the aircraft verbally.


Another point - Boeing B727 aircraft have crashed in a near identical manner, from a near identical primary failure - one pilot pulling back on the yoke while the stall warning continues to sound. The issue of a pilot pulling back while in a stall after loss of situational awareness is not unique to side-stick aircraft.

Let's look at another sidestick aircraft accident - US1549. First Officer Skiles never had any trouble telling what Capt Sullenberger was doing with the flight controls. But the big difference between AF447 and US1549 was the PNF declared he wanted control of the aircraft immediately, and the former PF now concentrated on the other tasks necessary to support the pilot flying. That cooperation was completely missing in the cockpit of AF447.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 231):
In this case, two pilots first stalled the airplane and then for unknown reasons were unable to recover.

Minor point - but one pilot stalled the aircraft, and the other pilot never attempted to clarify the situation or even point out the aircraft was stalled. Neither pilot ever tried to recover from a stall.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 232):
No changes to the airplane

Where does the report show a problem with the aircraft?

As far as the pitots - the early interim reports noted that even the new Goodrich probes have been know to ice over and lead to a UAS situation.

No probe can ever be 100% reliable in all conditions. Pilots must train for UAS.

[Edited 2013-03-20 20:34:59]

[Edited 2013-03-20 20:35:51]

[Edited 2013-03-20 20:40:30]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: BenSandilands
Posted 2013-03-20 21:33:50 and read 8653 times.

Pihero,

Your language is offensive. But at the risk of further side tracks, I'll let others reflect on personal abuse.

Yes I am the author of those articles. And I stand by my opinion that Air France has an atrocious operational record, not including criminal incidents such as acts of terrorism, and that the EU stance on banning other carriers is hypocritical and arrogant if it ignores the Air France situation, which may have killed more French nationals this century than have all the carriers of Asia combined.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: airtechy
Posted 2013-03-20 22:00:16 and read 8613 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 233):
Where does the report show a problem with the aircraft?

Well, if you believe that the pilots were competent you either have to believe that:

1: Except for the airspeed, the airplane presented all flight data and alarms as designed and the pilots were unable to interpret them correctly or,

2: The data as designed and presented was subject to misinterpretation by the pilots especially after a stall or,

3. The PNF didn't have a clear picture of what the PF was doing with the controls.

I can only assume that if the PNF had realized the problem (stall) he would have said something or assumed control. I just find it hard to believe that the only fix for this accident is better training or more sleep. Many changes in cockpit design have been driven by accidents.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: StressedOut
Posted 2013-03-20 22:20:16 and read 8601 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 221):
which is to try and destroy reputation, blacken people's names and companies'reputation with a total disregard for the damages you - and your friends - could do

I totally agree Pihero. After seeing the headlines and reading several of Ben's blog entries over the past year, I find his tactics to be disturbing to say the least. I used to work as an engineer for one of the manufacturers he trashes every now and then. I know how much safety and integrity are part of their culture and character so his innuendoes are quite offensive.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-21 03:24:54 and read 8401 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 229):
This paper isn't really on point here, as it really doesn't deal with how we determine from a crew's actions that they are or are not fatigued.

That's strange : the paper deals with symptoms - or not - of wakefulness and fatigue for a wide range of examples throughout all different operations.
If you're looking for a definite, foolproof way of saying "this crew was fatigued because they said this..." , look somewhere else, into law cases for instance : There isn't one specialist who would help you there. That's how complicated this subject is and appreciations leave a lot of subjectivity.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 232):
So basically only increased training. No changes to the airplane.....except the new pitots....that we know of.

See the BEA report :
- pages 204 - 206
- 208 - 210 (Training )
- 211 and following on FD logic / Stall warnings / ergonomy / warnings ... etc...

Quoting airtechy (Reply 235):
I just find it hard to believe that the only fix for this accident is better training or more sleep. Many changes in cockpit design have been driven by accidents.

As above, a careful reading of the headings would have allowed you to find answers.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-21 03:50:40 and read 8363 times.

Further to the leaking of the Judicial report :

As I hinted, the French laws on confidentiality, protection of identities, protection of privacy... have been implemented : the leaked document published by some websites have been removed and judicial actions are being taken against the originators of the first - miquoted - article.

The other aviation site has seen some drastic moderating, so much that the thread is just about incomprehensible.
As a very interested party, I have to thank both the forumers and the moderators who managed to keep away from the madness around the misquote to an absolute minimum.

But, in some ways, the damage to the the dead crew and their family has been done, which is very sad.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-21 04:17:31 and read 8295 times.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 235):
Well, if you believe that the pilots were competent you either have to believe that:

1: Except for the airspeed, the airplane presented all flight data and alarms as designed and the pilots were unable to interpret them correctly or,

2: The data as designed and presented was subject to misinterpretation by the pilots especially after a stall or,

3. The PNF didn't have a clear picture of what the PF was doing with the controls.

I don't think many believe the crew acted competently during those four minutes.

In order to conclude that the displays and controls need to be redesigned on the basis of AF447, you have to wade through several layers of far more significant and glaring issues and ignore the side-stick traces and a large part of the CVR transcript. I'm not sure the instruments on a Boeing or another type would have looked much different in the same circumstances.

Unlike the many other crews that have lost airspeed indications, this crew did not follow the procedures or training. They did not begin to adopt a methodical approach to the situation. They were uncooperative and uncommunicative. They lost one reading - the airspeed, and not for very long - and that seemed to disorient them to the point that they stopped trusting all the other good indications. As far as I can see, any design improvement to deal with that would have to be pretty radical and applied across the board, not just to Airbus.

When the PF apparently aimed for the wrong pitch when the airspeed indication was lost, the PNF could have known from the instruments, regardless of what the PF was doing with the side-stick. Contrary to the oft repeated myth that the PF "pulled the stick full aft and kept it there", the side-stick traces show a different story but that the inputs were "generally nose-up". The PNF would not have had a yoke "in his crotch" if the aircraft had been so equipped. Later on, the other two kept telling the PF to stop climbing at to start to descend but they didn't say why. Even then, the nose-high attitude and decreasing altitude should have been enough information, regardless of what the PF was doing with the side-stick.

At the risk of it becoming even more tiresome, I stand by my claim the each pilot knowing what the other was doing was not an issue. The issue was that they didn't work out what they should be doing. Once again, I'll also borrow RFields point that if any one of the crew had been replaced by someone else that day, things would probably have turned out differently.

Especially given the accidents caused by a yoke being pulled in reaction to a stall warning and not corrected by the PNF (it's rare but it happens), asking for the side-sticks to be significantly altered or replaced altogether seems akin to asking for the observatory to be burned down so that we never get hit by an asteroid.  
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 230):
And who demonstrated the preference - pilots, designers, or whoever?

It's a myth that when designing aircraft, "Boeing talks to pilots while Airbus talks to engineers". It sounds catchy but it just isn't true. Well, it is true, of course, but it's highly misleading - both manufacturers talk to engineers (they employ them, after all) and both consult with pilots. It might be true that Airbus initially had to work harder to convince pilots but the idea that there was significantly less input from pilots in the Airbus design is just nonsense. From what I've seen and heard, it's not so difficult to win pilots over once they've actually flown a FBW Airbus.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-21 04:29:51 and read 8272 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 240):
It's a myth that when designing aircraft, "Boeing talks to pilots while Airbus talks to engineers".

With respect, David L, didn't mean it as some sort of 'Boeing v. Airbus' comment. Just can't imagine anyone who's flown anything being in favour of a system where one pilot doesn't know what the other guy is doing. So my guess is that it was probably designers/engineers, rather than pilots, who were more in favour of 'simplified' systems.

Another version of the transcript here, with a lot of comments. Certainly seems to point to a situation where NEITHER of the pilots 'up front' when the accident began - nor even the Captain when he arrived on the flightdeck - had much idea about what was going on:-

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...ened-aboard-air-france-447-6611877

[Edited 2013-03-21 04:30:31]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-21 04:35:54 and read 8273 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 238):
- 211 and following on FD logic / Stall warnings / ergonomy / warnings ... etc...

True but, remembering the Tech/Ops thread about the BEA Recommendations, I got the impression that some of those recommendations might not be as straight forward or as vital as some might think. For example, the issue of the stall warning being intermittent at low speed caused some debate, to say the least! And if the crew had followed procedures, wouldn't they have turned the FDs off anyway?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-21 04:40:40 and read 8263 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 241):
With respect, David L, didn't mean it as some sort of 'Boeing v. Airbus' comment

Yes, I'll give you that one! I should have stated that I was quoting that line in order to make a comment to those who often do quote the phrase and to those who are mislead by it.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-21 05:05:30 and read 8224 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 241):
Just can't imagine anyone who's flown anything being in favour of a system where one pilot doesn't know what the other guy is doing. So my guess is that it was probably designers/engineers, rather than pilots, who were more in favour of 'simplified' systems.

Neither can I. Neither can Airbus. Airbus is not in favour of such a system. You just keep repeating the same things you've been saying here for years, no matter how many times people who know a lot more about the subject keep correcting your misrepresentations of how Airbus systems work. Do you really believe you have a better understanding than Pihero, Zeke or PGNCS, for example?

No-one is suggesting it was pilots that came up with the idea and it's well documented that people who've never flown a FBW Airbus or learned how they work tend to be suspicious of it. The fact that many people who don't understand them don't like them is pretty much irrelevant.

Seriously, thousands of them have been flying for a quarter of a century, just as safely as other contemporary types, and enjoyed by thousands of pilots. It's time to get over it.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-21 05:21:33 and read 8188 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 238):
That's strange : the paper deals with symptoms - or not - of wakefulness and fatigue for a wide range of examples throughout all different operations.

That's not really its point. Which parts of it do you see as supportive of BEA's conclusions?

Edited to add: If the paper were supportive of BEA's conclusions, don't you think they would have cited it?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 238):
If you're looking for a definite, foolproof way of saying "this crew was fatigued because they said this..." , look somewhere else

Again--I realize you are trolling--I don't think there's definitive evidence one way or the other in AF 447. In a different case, there might well be.

[Edited 2013-03-21 05:25:39]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rwessel
Posted 2013-03-21 05:31:32 and read 8172 times.

Quoting art (Reply 205):
An AOA indicator may not work below 60 knots but an artificial horizon is gyro-based, isn't it, and would be unaffected by air speed. IIRC at one point the pilot flying the aircraft corrected a wing that was dropping. Would he not have done that using an artificial horizon instrument? Additionally, at one point one of the pilots believed the aircraft had excess airspeed IIRC. If so, I do not understand why neither of the pilots on the flight deck noticed the unusual attitude of the aircraft in the pitch axis. (Even if one was mistaken in how many degrees positive pitch the aircraft should have, why did the other not notice?)

The artificial horizon will tell you where the nose of the aircraft is relative to the horizon, which, as this accident illustrates, can be massively removed from your alpha. In fact the aircraft's deck angle remained reasonably near the "normal" range for the entire descent. The alpha increased to over 40 degrees because of the very high rate of descent of the aircraft.

Consider this: An aircraft moving forwards at 100kts, and descending at 100kts (~12000ft/min), with its nose exactly on the horizon. The deck angle (which is what your artificial horizon will show you) will be zero, but the alpha will be 45 degrees.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-21 05:48:02 and read 8117 times.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 246):
Consider this: An aircraft moving forwards at 100kts, and descending at 100kts (~12000ft/min), with its nose exactly on the horizon. The deck angle (which is what your artificial horizon will show you) will be zero, but the alpha will be 45 degrees.

Yes but I think what art is getting at generally is that pitch versus descent rate should have told them that their alpha was excessively high. The PNF kept telling the PF to stop trying to climb (pretty amazing for someone who allegedly didn't know he was doing it) and to start descending but he didn't say why. If he had explained why, perhaps the PF might have paid more attention to him.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-21 06:03:24 and read 8094 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 247):
The PNF kept telling the PF to stop trying to climb (pretty amazing for someone who allegedly didn't know he was doing it) and to start descending but he didn't say why. If he had explained why, perhaps the PF might have paid more attention to him.

I suspect that you've 'put your finger on it,' David L. We'll never know for certain why neither of the guys concerned realised that they were in a headlong stall - and therefore didn't take action to recover from it. But, on the evidence, that's what happened...........

Have to 'speculate,' though, that the issue might have been 'protections.' In 'normal/autopiloted' flight Airbuses (and Boeings, as far as know), have 'protections' (that is, systems that 'overrule' the pilot) against things like stalls.

Very possibly, the pilots concerned had not been fully briefed/trained on the fact that once the aeroplane went into 'alternate law,' most of those protections stopped operating? And therefore assumed that they were still working?

[Edited 2013-03-21 06:13:23]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-21 06:30:12 and read 8030 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 248):
Very possibly, the pilots concerned had not been fully briefed/trained on the fact that once the aeroplane went into 'alternate law,' most of those protections stopped operating? And therefore assumed that they were still working?

Their training is all set out in the BEA R-E-P-O-R-T and its adequacy is analysed in detail.

Perhaps we should all just stop responding to you until you read it.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-21 06:38:19 and read 8030 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 242):
True but, remembering the Tech/Ops thread about the BEA Recommendations, I got the impression that some of those recommendations might not be as straight forward or as vital as some might think. For example, the issue of the stall warning being intermittent at low speed caused some debate, to say the least! And if the crew had followed procedures, wouldn't they have turned the FDs off anyway?

  

Which brings us back to **recommendations** to the certifying authorities, against **implementation orders** . Note that the report addresses only the pertinent recommendations to the pertinent authority : Airbus, as the OEM has responsibility for after-sales suppport, hence training and manuals, and EASA, as certifying authority for looking into the recommendations on FDs / warnings / ergonomy...

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 245):
That's not really its point. Which parts of it do you see as supportive of BEA's conclusions?

My point has never been about finding anything supportive of BEA conclusions, which are, to say the least, very careful in their wording on fatigue.
My point has been about allowing people - with no reference to the problems of fatigue whatsoever - to make their own opinion on the subject of influence of crew fatigue to crews' performance. The CAA paper, and a lot more of others go into their research on the subject. To be precise, I'd hesitated a long time between the CAA document and an FAA one. I guess the CAA is closer to my intellectual vision of **getting to the public a specialised knowledge**.

Your point is : show me ! And my reply was : look into your law cases as you will not find ,in an accident investigation, speculations that could'nt be based on **facts**... which causes, in two separate official documents - not forgetting the fact that the second is largely based on evidence from the first - two groups of specialists disagreeing on the influence of **circadian fatigue** on the accident.

I challenge you to find anything else in my posts.

[Edited 2013-03-21 06:45:33]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-21 06:45:51 and read 8000 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 250):
Your point is : show me ! And my reply was : look into your law cases as you will not find ,in an accident investigation, speculations that could'nt be based on **facts**... which causes, in two separate official documents - not forgetting the fact that the second is largely based on evidence from the first - two groups of specialists disagreeing on the influence of **circadian fatigue** on the accident.

. . . and I think the disagreement is telling The BEA report was, in my opinion, too quick to draw a conclusion on fatigue based on very limited evidence. Fatigue is a subject about which a ton has written and that demands a fairly detailed and nuanced analysis.

BEA was right to analyze fatigue, but I think the conclusion should have been "it's impossible to tell its effects."

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-03-21 06:50:47 and read 7997 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 251):
I think the conclusion should have been "it's impossible to tell its effects."

Or even, backing up a step, "there is insufficient evidence to assess if this crew was fatigued".

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-21 06:52:43 and read 8017 times.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 252):
Or even, backing up a step, "there is insufficient evidence to assess if this crew was fatigued".

That's what I was trying to say. You put it much better.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-21 07:04:31 and read 8000 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 251):
BEA was right to analyze fatigue, but I think the conclusion should have been "it's impossible to tell its effects."

Is your wording fundamentally different from :
"This lack of precise information on their activity during the stopover, in particular in relation to sleep, makes it impossible to evaluate the level of fatigue associated to the flight crew’s duty time." ?
but it goes on further :
"The CVR recording does, however, make it possible to show that the crew showed no signs of** objective** fatigue"...
How much more careful do you want them to be ?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-21 07:08:48 and read 7993 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 248):
Have to 'speculate,' though, that the issue might have been 'protections.' In 'normal/autopiloted' flight Airbuses (and Boeings, as far as know), have 'protections' (that is, systems that 'overrule' the pilot) against things like stalls.

Very possibly, the pilots concerned had not been fully briefed/trained on the fact that once the aeroplane went into 'alternate law,' most of those protections stopped operating? And therefore assumed that they were still working?

I second Kaiarahi. Read the report, including the CVR. Whether or not they were aware that protections had been lost is covered. Whether or not the aircraft told them they were stalling is covered.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 250):
Which brings us back to **recommendations** to the certifying authorities, against **implementation orders** .

Indeed. As I recall, the recommendations were that these issues be considered. And I'm sure they will be.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-21 07:11:51 and read 7983 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 254):
Is your wording fundamentally different from :

I'm not really sure what "objective fatigue" is. Translation issue, perhaps?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-21 07:22:18 and read 7965 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 256):
I'm not really sure what "objective fatigue" is. Translation issue, perhaps?

See for yourself :

"L’enregistrement du CVR permet cependant de faire ressortir que l’équipage de conduite ne présentait pas de signes de fatigue objectifs,"

signes objectifs = objective signs
the plural adjective makes it clear that it concerns **the signs**.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-03-21 07:28:24 and read 7948 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 257):
See for yourself :

If the point is that there were no objective signs of fatigue, I'd agree with that. Of course, there were no objective signs of lack of fatigue either, and I'd probably prefer that that had been said too.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We're just splitting hairs now, though.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-21 07:37:59 and read 7925 times.

To me it means that they can't be sure what level of fatigue the crew was experiencing but they couldn't find any evidence that they were definitely fatigued.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-21 07:58:43 and read 7889 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 255):
I second Kaiarahi. Read the report, including the CVR. Whether or not they were aware that protections had been lost is covered. Whether or not the aircraft told them they were stalling is covered.

Guess we're not that far apart, David L.

You're apparently 'happy' that the 'most probable cause' of the accident was 'pilot error.' I agree, more or less.

But the difference between us appears to be, 'What caused said pilot error'? I think other factors, not just basic 'flying,' may have been involved - you disagree. I further suspect that the aircraft systems contributed; you don't.

To avoid boring most other contributors to the thread to death, guess one option would be that we both ended our debate. But just maybe, we can continue our (up to now, very civilised) discussion, from time to time, as further facts emerge? Provided that we allow plenty of room for other contributors to have their say?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-21 08:57:46 and read 7816 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 256):
I'm not really sure what "objective fatigue" is. Translation issue, perhaps?

A possible definition: "Subjective fatigue" is when you say "I'm not tired. I can drive another 200 miles." "Objectiive fatigue" is when the passenger in the car says "No, you're about to fall asleep at the wheel. Pull over and let me drive."

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-21 10:04:47 and read 7752 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 260):
But the difference between us appears to be, 'What caused said pilot error'? I think other factors, not just basic 'flying,' may have been involved - you disagree.

Absolutely wrong. If you'd been paying any attention to what I've said since day one you would even think of accusing me of such a thing. That is very annoying. After four years and I don't know how many discussions, I don't feel the need to reiterate every step of my thought processes from day one.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 260):
I further suspect that the aircraft systems contributed; you don't.
Based on not having read the report with its accompanying FDR traces and CVR transcript and having shown, on many occasions, that you don't really understand the systems you criticise. The fact that the aircraft systems were present means they "contributed".

Read the report.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Unflug
Posted 2013-03-21 10:31:18 and read 7709 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 260):
But just maybe, we can continue our (up to now, very civilised) discussion, from time to time, as further facts emerge?

I have no idea where further "facts" should come from. Certainly from time to time there will be some journalist picking some pieces of information, take them out of context and create surprising news by doing so. And this will give other people another good opportunity to repeat what they "firmly believe"...

If you are really looking for facts:

Quoting David L (Reply 262):
Read the report.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mandala499
Posted 2013-03-21 15:04:19 and read 7529 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 262):
Based on not having read the report with its accompanying FDR traces and CVR transcript and having shown, on many occasions, that you don't really understand the systems you criticise.

Let me help him with:
http://www.globalsim.web.id/publicservice/AF447/AF447-basicFDRplot.jpg

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 230):
Interesting, Kaiarahi. Given that virtually all aeroplanes had had linked yokes or sticks up to that time, why was there an 'overwhelming preference' for the change? And who demonstrated the preference - pilots, designers, or whoever?
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 241):
So my guess is that it was probably designers/engineers, rather than pilots, who were more in favour of 'simplified' systems.

Over 90% of all Airbus pilots whose first jet line job was on a yoke equipped jet that I have met, prefers the sidestick... these range from those with over 2000hrs on jets to over 10000hrs on jets... left seaters, right seaters... those who had just recently moved to the Bus, or had been on it for years.

Of the ones who went back to yoke-equipped aircraft, (consisting slightly more of those who didn't like the sidestick on their first Bus job), from whom I've met, 60% went back to the Bus... of the 60%, 1/4 deliberately failed their yoke-equipped type ratings. Of those who stayed to move back to the yoke, 75% were those who had 'problems with management' from their previous Bus job... and 75% of those missed flying the stick.

Which one do they think is safer? Same proportions as above.
It may be different where you are... but that's how it is here.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 231):
Does it make any sense that the NF pilot is required to turn 90 degrees in the cockpit to determine what the PF is doing with his sidestick? If they tracked, he would know that by lightly grasping his sidestick without having to divert his attention away from his panel. Surely, he would want to know this before deciding whether to assume control.

No need. You don't see the ADI and T instruments giving you what you think the aircraft should be doing in the situation, press sidestick priority button, declare it, and make the inputs you think is necessary... and declare giving it back if you want.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 233):
Minor point - but one pilot stalled the aircraft, and the other pilot never attempted to clarify the situation or even point out the aircraft was stalled. Neither pilot ever tried to recover from a stall.

Neither pilot called the stall... neither pilot did the memory item action... etc etc etc etc...

Quoting airtechy (Reply 235):
1: Except for the airspeed, the airplane presented all flight data and alarms as designed and the pilots were unable to interpret them correctly or,

Correct.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 235):
2: The data as designed and presented was subject to misinterpretation by the pilots especially after a stall or,

Correct.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 235):
3. The PNF didn't have a clear picture of what the PF was doing with the controls.

Since we've had two corrects (when we only had the choice of choosing one), is this relevant?

Quoting airtechy (Reply 235):
I can only assume that if the PNF had realized the problem (stall) he would have said something or assumed control.

Correct.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 235):
I just find it hard to believe that the only fix for this accident is better training or more sleep.

Welcome to reality!   

Quoting BenSandilands (Reply 234):
which may have killed more French nationals this century than have all the carriers of Asia combined.

Of course.. just like Afriqiyah Airways had killed more Libyan nationals this century than all the carriers of Africa combined... just like British Airways had killed more Brits this century than all the carriers of Europe combined... just like KLM had killed more Dutch this century than all of the European carriers combined...

Quoting David L (Reply 240):
Unlike the many other crews that have lost airspeed indications, this crew did not follow the procedures or training.

I guess people refuse to look into why this is the case.

Quoting David L (Reply 240):
Contrary to the oft repeated myth that the PF "pulled the stick full aft and kept it there", the side-stick traces show a different story but that the inputs were "generally nose-up". The PNF would not have had a yoke "in his crotch" if the aircraft had been so equipped. Later on, the other two kept telling the PF to stop climbing at to start to descend but they didn't say why

Now we have part of the FDR plot above... the next person who says " PF "pulled the stick full aft and kept it there"" is a troll wannabe!   

Quoting David L (Reply 244):
Do you really believe you have a better understanding than Pihero, Zeke or PGNCS, for example?

FCOMs and FCTMs anyone?

Quoting David L (Reply 247):
The PNF kept telling the PF to stop trying to climb (pretty amazing for someone who allegedly didn't know he was doing it) and to start descending but he didn't say why. If he had explained why, perhaps the PF might have paid more attention to him.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 248):
have 'protections' (that is, systems that 'overrule' the pilot) against things like stalls.

Normal Law, Alternate Law, and Direct Law... regardless of protections... Stall Warning is a memory item regardless of flight control law... it is a memory item regardless of flight control law for a very very good reason!
Over here, fail to recall the memory items in a question by any qualified person, means you just slapped your rating as non-current had have to go through retraining! Yes, it is THAT important.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 248):
Very possibly, the pilots concerned had not been fully briefed/trained on the fact that once the aeroplane went into 'alternate law,' most of those protections stopped operating? And therefore assumed that they were still working?

If they had not been fully briefed/trained that alternate law has alternate law 1 (with protections) and alternate law 2 (no protections), they wouldn't even pass their type ratings (and if that was the case and Pihero was checking them on the simulator I wouldn't be surprised if Pihero would use them as chocks on his next flight).

The report did mention the crew being aware of "ALTERNATE LAW NO PROTECTIONS"...

I guess you want to go to the details but not read the details? What's the point?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-21 17:50:08 and read 7367 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 230):
Interesting, Kaiarahi. Given that virtually all aeroplanes had had linked yokes or sticks up to that time, why was there an 'overwhelming preference' for the change? And who demonstrated the preference - pilots, designers, or whoever?

It is called progress. Without it, we would still be on our belly and shifting our weight from side to side in order to bend the wing.
Using flight controls that have been present on the Ford Trimotor and refusing any new philosophy, in my opinion smacks of some rather conservative mindset.

And by the way, the main architects of the Airbus EFCS were test pilots, who happened to be also graduates of the **Sup Aero** school that has nothing to envy from any university of technology anywhere in the world. Research Bernard Ziegler's biography on the net.

The reasons they adopted the now well-known architecture go a lot farther than just making a difference from generally accepted way of doing things... They took the principles of electonic flight controls and realised that they could go a lot further in terms of safety, piloting comfort, fuel savings... etc...
Then they went exploring all the possible scenari of flight control anomalies (jammed / broken... lines and so forth , incapacited pilots leaning on the yoke...
Examples : a jammed control on the A300/737/... means that the link has to be broken -----> Result is you've lost half of your control surfaces and you're in for a day of hard labour... and only one pilot has flight control
- a dead weight of an incapacited pilot on the control wheel and you'd think this won't really another day at the office.
For both situations,on the 'Bus, take priority and lock-out the other stick... Which means : just-press-a-red-button .

Of course you may find one of the rare anti-stick pilots: I flew some time ago with one who told me the system was dangerous as in turbulence on an LHR short final, they had the stick to the lateral stop and couldn't control the aeroplane so they went around. I told him he was in all probability PIOing, which he took as an insult.
As it happened I was right..

So, I'm afraid you'll have to study a lot more on this subject... and pop mec won't help you.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-21 19:35:29 and read 7269 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 264):
I guess you want to go to the details but not read the details? What's the point?
Quoting Pihero (Reply 265):
So, I'm afraid you'll have to study a lot more on this subject..

Looks like the BEA, in its report, rather agrees with me that the more experienced pilot could not easily see what the PF was doing with his sidestick; and also identifies the lack of an 'Angle of Attack' gauge as another significant factor:-

"Although the PF’s initial excessive nose-up reaction may thus be fairly easily understood, the same is not true for the persistence of this input, which generated a significant vertical flight path deviation.

"It would also seem unlikely that the PNF could have determined the PF’s flight path stabilisation targets. It is worth noting that the inputs applied to a sidestick by one pilot cannot be observed easily by the other one and that the conditions of a night flight in IMC make it more difficult to monitor aeroplane attitudes (pitch attitude in particular).

"The crew never formally identified the stall situation. Information on angle of attack is not directly accessible to pilots. The angle of attack in cruise is close to the stall warning trigger angle of attack in a law other than normal law. Under these conditions, manual handling can bring the aeroplane to high angles of attack such as those encountered during the event. It is essential in order to ensure flight safety to reduce the angle of attack when a stall is imminent. Only a direct readout of the angle of attack could enable crews to rapidly identify the aerodynamic situation of the aeroplane and take the actions that may be required."

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-21 20:23:48 and read 7225 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 266):
Looks like the BEA, in its report, rather agrees with me that the more experienced pilot could not easily see what the PF was doing with his sidestick

And that's all it says. Don't read more into it than is there. A side stick or yoke is not a flight instrument.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: art
Posted 2013-03-22 01:09:01 and read 7046 times.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 246):
Consider this: An aircraft moving forwards at 100kts, and descending at 100kts (~12000ft/min), with its nose exactly on the horizon. The deck angle (which is what your artificial horizon will show you) will be zero, but the alpha will be 45 degrees

Had not thought of that, thanks. But I think it comes under my 3rd query below. I have never stalled anything I have flown (except intentionally when learning stall recovery, doing stall turns) so I have never been in a sustained stall but if I were aware I was losing altitude fast and did not know why I am sure that the possibility of a stall would loom large (even more so if a wing dropped) and if altitude allowed, I would get the nose down. Can't understand that with loads of altitude and time to react neither the PF nor PNF did this.

If you are losing indicated altitude and believe your altimeter reading what could be responsible for that?

- the air through which you are flying is descending?

- you have a nose-down attitude?

- lift generated by the aircraft is less than its mass?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rwessel
Posted 2013-03-22 01:50:24 and read 6994 times.

Quoting art (Reply 268):
Had not thought of that, thanks. But I think it comes under my 3rd query below. I have never stalled anything I have flown (except intentionally when learning stall recovery, doing stall turns) so I have never been in a sustained stall but if I were aware I was losing altitude fast and did not know why I am sure that the possibility of a stall would loom large (even more so if a wing dropped) and if altitude allowed, I would get the nose down. Can't understand that with loads of altitude and time to react neither the PF nor PNF did this.

If you are losing indicated altitude and believe your altimeter reading what could be responsible for that?

- the air through which you are flying is descending?

- you have a nose-down attitude?

- lift generated by the aircraft is less than its mass?

Well, that *is* the fundamental mystery of AF447 - how did they fail to understand they were in a stall. At the end of the day, they sat baffled in a perfectly functional, but stalled aircraft, for *four* minutes (with the stall warning blaring a fair bit of that time), while the ocean came up to swat them.

Mind you, though, that a proper stall recovery (once this was fully developed) would have been a rather dramatic event – they would have had to push the nose something like 30 degrees below the horizon, unless a combination of a lesser nose-down angle and engine power could have combined to reduce the alpha below the critical value.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-22 02:55:03 and read 6919 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 266):
Looks like the BEA, in its report, rather agrees with me that the more experienced pilot could not easily see what the PF was doing with his sidestick

No, there are some significant differences. You have continually stated that neither pilot can see what the other is doing with the side-stick. The BEA also provides a lot of context in the form of the rest of the report.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 266):
and also identifies the lack of an 'Angle of Attack' gauge as another significant factor:-

From the links I provided earlier, are you familiar with the reasons that most modern airliners are not equipped as standard with an AoA indicator?

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-22 04:30:29 and read 6823 times.

Quoting David L (Reply 270):
From the links I provided earlier, are you familiar with the reasons that most modern airliners are not equipped as standard with an AoA indicator?

I'm afraid that I'm not, David L. Must have missed them. Please re-post the relevant link(s)?

Maybe please also explain why, if AOA is no longer necessary, the BEA included this in their report?

"Only a direct readout of the angle of attack could enable crews to rapidly identify the aerodynamic situation of the aeroplane and take the actions that may be required."

[Edited 2013-03-22 04:41:01]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-22 05:55:47 and read 6733 times.

Quoting art (Reply 268):
but if I were aware I was losing altitude fast

While the standby altimeter was unwinding like a fast clock in a movie, the VSI was very quickly pegged to the maximum limit. Only late in the fall does it appear from the CVR that the pilots began to understand that they were actually falling.

The CVR has several references to the PF 'climbing'. A word of warning - that might not be the correct translation due to the context of the statement and cultural references.

But it appears to me that the two pilots initially did not realize the aircraft was falling, probably for at least half of the fall, maybe more.

When the Captain returns to the cockpit, he appears to recognize the aircraft is falling. Both the PF and the PNF state that they do not trust any readings from the instruments.

Quoting art (Reply 268):
even more so if a wing dropped

The aircraft kept trying to roll. The PF kept the aircraft stable with significant left and right stick movements. Which might have masked his nose-up and nose-down pitch inputs. The aircraft made a near 270 degree right descending turn as it fell.

(That's one reason the aircraft was not located for so long. It was several miles back on the flight track and to the west of the initial loss of contact position.)

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-22 07:27:43 and read 6644 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 271):
Maybe please also explain why, if AOA is no longer necessary, the BEA included this in their report?

"Only a direct readout of the angle of attack could enable crews to rapidly identify the aerodynamic situation of the aeroplane and take the actions that may be required."

This paragraph in the BEA report also points out that "The angle of attack in cruise is close to the stall warning trigger angle of attack in a law other than normal law." It therefore also is close to stall AOA. The BEA seemes to be suggesting that because, in this type of situation, the margins are so narrow, direct AOA information provided to the crew could be useful (although the AF447 CRM seems to have been so dysfunctional that it may not have helped in that case).

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: captainmeeerkat
Posted 2013-03-22 09:16:26 and read 6550 times.

This story has now been picked up by the Irish newspaper (Irish Independent), infactually reporting the same sensationalist headlines as the original article in the OP stated.

I attempted to comment twice that it was infactual and twice my comment was removed. It goes to show exaclty the mindset of the fourth estate - those who are charged to uncover truth! Idiocy reigns supreme as always  

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: mandala499
Posted 2013-03-22 12:03:32 and read 6417 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 266):
Looks like the BEA, in its report, rather agrees with me that the more experienced pilot could not easily see what the PF was doing with his sidestick;

It does not. What you quoted does nto agree with what you think it means.
It cannot be determined beyond doubt what the PF was chasing in the pitch angle.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 271):
Maybe please also explain why, if AOA is no longer necessary, the BEA included this in their report?

How useful is the AoA if you're in a high altitude stall? With no training on it, useless. You can't train for high-altitude stalls in simulators, because the post-stall behaviour depends on so many variables you can't calculate it... it's problematic. Both Boeing and Airbus agree on that.

As useful as the AoA gauge is, recovery from post-stall in high altitude... is not easy... it also require changes in how recovery from approach to stall is made. Gone are "power then nose down... minimize height loss", in comes "nose down then power... trade altitude to gain speed."

You want to rapidly put the nose down to unload the AoA and try to quickly gain airspeed? Bad news mate... you risk putting the rear wing into the disturbed airflow and vortices of the main wing... prolonging the recovery. In high-altitude stalls... patience is crucial.

Both Airbus and Boeing agree that avoiding a stall in a situation like AF447 is crucial, and more important than post-stall recovery... the argument on whether sidesticks or yokes would be better, whether one can see what the other is doing, is therefore irrelevant in my opinion in relation to AF447, flight with unreliable airspeed and stall recovery. Pitch and Power is the mantra to avoid, and prompt memory action for stall warnings, are until today, still the only effective and trainable way to avoid a repeat of AF447.

If one does not take appropriate action to the stall warning, there is little chance post-stall recovery is possible, no matter if you got sticks, yokes, or AoA gauges.

If you think I'm kidding... well... http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ned-by-limits-of-knowledge-383565/

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-03-23 06:04:37 and read 6068 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 274):
As useful as the AoA gauge is, recovery from post-stall in high altitude... is not easy.....

there is little chance post-stall recovery is possible

Just to add to your comment on NAV20's repeated questions.

I've long been of the opinion that recover of AF447 was probably not possible after about 1 minute into the incident. There are many highly experienced pilots on this forum who disagree with me.

From the FDR information, we know that pitch down input resulted is a SLOW response movement of the aircraft. There was simply not enough air moving across the wings and control surfaces for normal control inputs to result in normal aircraft behavior.

I believe that it would have taken at least a full minute of full nose down pitch before the aircraft gained sufficient attitude to begin to respond normally to the flight controls.

That would have increased the 10,000+ FPM descent rate significantly, and cut their time to the water surface. When they would have had to begin such a maneuver was before they crossed 30,000 ft, and it would have taken close to 15,000 or 20,000 ft of descent to hold the pitch down until the aircraft began to respond normally.

At that point the crew would have passed through 10K with some positive control of the aircraft, and attempting to pull out of what was now a steep dive.

Instead the crew crossed through 10K with the aircraft in a deep stall/ mush, very unresponsive to the controls which did not have sufficient authority to change the aircraft attitude in a positive manner.

My view is that the aircraft would have been more likely to recover from the deep stall by applying maneuvers more common to aerobatics aircraft or military fighters. Such as a steep wing over maneuver of 60 degrees + of roll.

Along with that, I realize no pilot in the world is going to try such a maneuver in a heavy long haul transport aircraft with a couple hundred people on-board.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: NAV20
Posted 2013-03-23 06:39:23 and read 6022 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 275):
I've long been of the opinion that recover of AF447 was probably not possible after about 1 minute into the incident.

'For the record,' rfields5421, agree entirely. Once they were in a deep stall the chances of 'recovery' were very thin indeed.

But that isn't my point. I meant, rather, that if the more experienced PNF had known - from linked sidesticks and/or AoA indications - that his colleague was - wrongly - hauling the nose way up and taking the aeroplane up to about 37,000 feet - he might have been able to take control immediately, and hopefully set things to rights.

But - due, in my opinion, to the lack of stick-linking AND of any AoA information - he didn't know. And instead, apparently, seems to have applied himself to calling up the relevant checklist. By which time, I agree, it was probably (and sadly) too late to do anything much..........

[Edited 2013-03-23 06:57:59]

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-23 07:17:43 and read 5974 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 275):
From the FDR information, we know that pitch down input resulted is a SLOW response movement of the aircraft. There was simply not enough air moving across the wings and control surfaces for normal control inputs to result in normal aircraft behavior.

True, but that slow initial reaction to control inputs of the aeroplane would rather quickly accelerate, hence some of the recovery difficulties.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 275):
believe that it would have taken at least a full minute of full nose down pitch before the aircraft gained sufficient attitude to begin to respond normally to the flight controls.

From personal experience, with sim exercises print-outs, 20 to 30 seconds would have been enough.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 275):
That would have increased the 10,000+ FPM descent rate significantly, and cut their time to the water surface.

Let's talk here about the now recommended stall recovery technique that both big OEMs have agreed upon, and based on personal experience and observation of a few dozen pilots :
With a constant pitch angle - ~5° down -, the ROD first increses to some 12-13000 ft/min and then rapidly decreases. Recovery is achieved within 10,000 ft (my best effort was 8,500 ft altitude loss and it can be improved, probably by another 1000 feet )... From a starting altitude of 38,000 ft, it's nothing.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 275):
My view is that the aircraft would have been more likely to recover from the deep stall by applying maneuvers more common to aerobatics aircraft or military fighters. Such as a steep wing over maneuver of 60 degrees + of roll.

If you looked in the archives of the accident thread, that's the recoivery technique I envisaged... But in terms of piloting technique it is beyond the ability of someone who hasn't done advanced aerobatic training, ands it's made even more difficult by the - vey - reduced flight control authority on all axes, which then augment rapidly, with the danger of over correction and falling into a sucession of stalls.
Moreover, the stresses induced increase the load factors and the stall speed.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: CamiloA380
Posted 2013-03-23 07:19:08 and read 5970 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 276):
But that isn't my point. I meant, rather, that if the more experienced PNF had known - from linked sidesticks and/or AoA indications - that his colleague was - wrongly - hauling the nose way up, he might have been able to take control immediately, and hopefully set things to rights.

The "Sidestick" thing has been discussed ridiculously many times. Read previous threads (or even here) on AF447 and you will find out.

Same thing regarding the AoA. You have not read the report, not even the FDR plots Mandala499 provided in reply #263. Because they ignored the stall warning, which is based on AoA, why would they not trust o stall warning but trust on AoA? AoA is quite useless post-stall as it only works above 60kts.

The PNF did not know what "his colleague" was AIMING at. The PNF did nothing when the stall warning came on, he didn't press the red button and take over. This would have still been the outcome, linked sidestick or not. Period.

Topic: RE: Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2013-03-23 07:19:54 and read 5980 times.

As this reaches more than 250 posts, we opened a new one in which we ask you all to post further comments.
This one will be locked.


Captain Of AF447 Only Had 1 Hour Of Sleep - Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 23 2013 in Civil Aviation)



Any posts after this will be deleted for housekeeping purposes, as a result of system lag.




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Felipe
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