Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5719737/

Topic: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-03-20 19:17:57 and read 28890 times.

The news from Bloomberg today:

Delta Said to Study Order for $4.3 Billion in Wide-Bodies

Quote:
Delta Air Lines Inc. (DAL) is considering buying as many as 20 wide-body jets from Airbus SAS or Boeing Co. (BA) with a list value of at least $4.3 billion, people familiar with the matter said.

The order under study is for 10 to 20 Airbus A330s or Boeing 777s, said the people, who declined to be identified because the negotiations are private. Deliveries would start within a few years, one person said. Delta already has both plane types in its fleet.

Surprising that DL would go for new, but I guess the used market isn't exactly flush with used A330s or 777s at the moment.

[Edited 2013-03-20 19:20:05]

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-03-20 19:23:23 and read 28884 times.

I expect it would be another 77L order, or possibly even the 77W. DL is using its bargaining power to get a better deal from Boeing, as they did with the 739ER order.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: TWA772LR
Posted 2013-03-20 19:27:19 and read 28800 times.

I think DL is studying the 777-8X. It is perfect to replace the 747 and also perfect for growth on trunk routes, allowing other 777s to be used for expansion.

I would say they are looking at the 77W, but with the new 777X's more than likely coming on line in the near future, and DL just having invested in a new interior on the 747s, the newer generation seems more likely IMO.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: nutsaboutplanes
Posted 2013-03-20 19:32:08 and read 28668 times.

Perfect number to replace the 16 744's.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: BD338
Posted 2013-03-20 19:32:23 and read 28672 times.

would they be for expansion? Less than a handful of the existing 777s are more than 4 years old (and only 13 years at the most). The A330s are barely 10 years old at the most. So replacement doesn't seem likely. Seem too big of a replacement for the 767 and those have just been through a cabin refurb. Interesting. Anderson using his usual smarts to get a great deal on a product that's in the A&B line to be replaced? I noticed the article also mentioned a possible narrow body order of existing generation A320/737.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: bomber996
Posted 2013-03-20 19:34:49 and read 28624 times.

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 3):
Perfect number to replace the 16 744's.

Didn't they just finish the cabin mods on those?

Peace   

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-03-20 19:36:35 and read 28598 times.

My guess would be A332s to replace the oldest group of 763ERs. Alternative guess would be 77Ws to replace the 744s.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: SCAT15F
Posted 2013-03-20 19:39:59 and read 28557 times.

My guess would be 747-8's to replace the 747-400's...  Wow!

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-03-20 19:45:45 and read 28509 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 6):
My guess would be A332s to replace the oldest group of 763ERs. Alternative guess would be 77Ws to replace the 744s.

The biggest hint is in this sentence, "Purchasing the jets would bridge Delta’s wide-body needs until the end of the decade … "

If this order will be to cover expected retirements, I'd give the A330 the nod as it's a lighter jet, and there's nothing on the horizon to be retired in the 747/777 fleets by the end of the decade that I'm aware of.

If this order will be for expansion, I'd expect the order to go to the 777.

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 7):
My guess would be 747-8's

Provocative!  

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: B747forever
Posted 2013-03-20 20:09:12 and read 28156 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):
expect it would be another 77L order, or possibly even the 77W

If DL is looking at current generation 777s, why would they order the 77L over the 77W? They certainly have enough 77Ls for their longest routes already, so no need for more long range birds. They need capacity over range.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: SCAT15F
Posted 2013-03-20 20:16:45 and read 28042 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 8):
Provocative!

right on my friend!
  

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-03-20 20:20:09 and read 27978 times.

Reading the article in states:

The order is for either A330 or 777.
This not for A350, 787, 777-X, 748, or any other "paper" aircraft, this is for current generation aircraft.

The question is what exact frames/capacity is this intended to replace?

The 744 fleet only has so many years left, however with the recent cabin upgrades, they are still expecting to get 5-7 years out the fleet. Some of the older frames may go toward the earlier part of that timeframe instead of the end.
However, if this was about replacing 744 capacity, many of the current 744 routes cannot be replaced on a range or capacity basis with the A330. DTW-NRT, ATL-NRT, JFK-NRT, DTW-NGO cannot be reliably be flown with an A330. So why even consider the A330 if this was about replacing 744 capacity?

763ERs, some of the older frames will be approaching the end of their usable life within the next few years. Plus you have the domestic 763s that in theory are going to be replaced by on their routes by 753s. It is possible this order will be to backfill any retirements of 763ERs and domestic 763s, and it may be possible to see some 763ERs pushed down into some domestic flying. Are they doing mods on all of the 763s?

The 777 and A330 are different airplanes with different route profiles. Look back to the early 2000s when NW decided to go with the A330 versus the 777 as to some of the factors to consider. The 777 is likely too much airplane for most of DL's TATL flights, when an A330 is perfectly sufficient on a range & capacity basis. However, they could go 77W which then bridges the gap and becomes more of a 744 replacement. They could split the order. DL by all accounts is very happy with the A330 and could easily use more A332s & A333s. Do they really need more 77E or 77L? Seems like they would be more likely to go 77W if they go with anymore 777s.

[Edited 2013-03-20 20:21:00]

[Edited 2013-03-20 20:22:18]

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: PIEAvantiP180
Posted 2013-03-20 20:33:43 and read 27819 times.

I'm betting that this order is not for replacement. Their entire WB fleet is going thru interior mods and that means they will keep these planes 7-10 years minimum. They also don't need medium range capacity since they have over 110 767-300er,767-400er,A330-200/300 aircraft in their fleet. So we can rule out the A330. They are short on long range capacity with only 16 747-400 and 18 777-200er/lr. Compared to AA and UA that have over 70 777/747 and are better suited to add US-Asia flying. They will have to grow Asia in order to better compete with UA and that means start overlying NRT. My conclusion is 777-200lr/300er, 787-A350 is out of the question unless A or B can find some extremely early delivery slots. I think this order will be for growth, I can see LAX-BNE, MEL and maybe LAX-China plus JFK-HKG, PEK, PVG and maybe back to India BOM, DEL.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: phxa340
Posted 2013-03-20 20:43:27 and read 27718 times.

Friendly reminder - DL already has the 787 on order - albeit , they pushed their delivery slots way back.

I don't think it has to be all 777 or 330, I can easily see a split 333/77W order or maybe some 332/77Ws. I think DL is finally going to join the 77W bandwagon though.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: mplsjefe
Posted 2013-03-20 20:55:43 and read 27595 times.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 11):
However, if this was about replacing 744 capacity, many of the current 744 routes cannot be replaced on a range or capacity basis with the A330. DTW-NRT, ATL-NRT, JFK-NRT, DTW-NGO cannot be reliably be flown with an A330. So why even consider the A330 if this was about replacing 744 capacity?

DLs A330s carry more pax than their 777s. It would have to be a range criteria, and not a pax #, if you are correct.

[Edited 2013-03-20 20:56:45]

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: airtechy
Posted 2013-03-20 20:57:41 and read 27585 times.

I can't see Delta adding more wide body aircraft for use over the Atlantic. They seem to be cutting the point to point travel there. Assuming they are not "replacement" aircraft, I could see them using them for more "Narita" overflights from the US.
Depending on the envisioned loads and cargo the 777 might be required vs. the 330.

According to planespotters, American has 122 widebodies ... United has 159 (including 787)...and Delta has 160.

American 70 (767) 52 (777)
Delta 16 (747) 94 (767) 18 (777) 32 (330)
United 24 (747) 56 (767) 74 (777)

It seems like for the long range missions....777 and 747..Delta is lagging. Having said that, I'm sure they are using those 330's optimally on shorter flights.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-03-20 20:58:05 and read 27540 times.

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 14):

DLs A330's carry more pax than their 777s. It would have to be a range criteria, and not a pax # one, if you are correct.

Yes, primarily range.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-03-20 21:15:10 and read 27392 times.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 15):
Depending on the envisioned loads and cargo the 777 might be required vs. the 330.

They could definitely use a 77W on GRU ....they have to keep up with AA in the Brazilian market.

ANd not to stir the pot more.....maybe they will order all 330s and open up a S. American routes from LAX and MIA.   

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: B747forever
Posted 2013-03-20 21:27:33 and read 27259 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 18):
not to stir the pot more.....maybe they will order all 330s and open up a S. American routes from LAX and MIA

With AA getting much stronger and bigger with the merger I doubt DL will ever be able to enter MIA.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-03-20 21:29:03 and read 27240 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 19):
With AA getting much stronger and bigger with the merger I doubt DL will ever be able to enter MIA.


But there will be two years of distractions first. ample time for DL to experiment IMHO

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: AF185
Posted 2013-03-20 21:30:59 and read 27222 times.

I also believe this could go to the A330 for the replacement of older 763's.

I flew a non-retroffited B763 (after 4h delay because of a tech problem) from DTW to GRU last August...a disgrace in comparison to DL's excellent in-flight experience on the 772ER.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: B747forever
Posted 2013-03-20 21:36:27 and read 27157 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 20):
Quoting B747forever (Reply 19):
With AA getting much stronger and bigger with the merger I doubt DL will ever be able to enter MIA.


But there will be two years of distractions first. ample time for DL to experiment IMHO

That would assume DL entering MIA in a matter of weeks, which they will never do. Secondly, Delta would be foolish not to expect AA fighting this to death. I doubt that DL is ready or strong enough to loose millions at MIA. Instead they should focus on building up their current hubs, such as LAX while UA still is the mess it is and AA about to have their hands full with the merger. But AA letting go of MIA will never happen.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-03-20 21:48:29 and read 27063 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 8):
If this order will be to cover expected retirements, I'd give the A330 the nod as it's a lighter jet, and there's nothing on the horizon to be retired in the 747/777 fleets by the end of the decade that I'm aware of.
DL has been spending millions on interior mods on its 763ER fleet, and I really don't think DL is in any hurry to replace them. I predict this order will be for long-range expansion, thus giving the 777 the edge. The 77W is possible, however, DL will likely continue to operate the 744 even if the 77W is ordered.

[Edited 2013-03-20 21:50:30]

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-03-20 22:03:31 and read 26935 times.

Quoting AF185 (Reply 21):
I also believe this could go to the A330 for the replacement of older 763's.

That would be my feeling too; the 763ERs seem to be most urgently in need of replacement, but on the other hand, there are around 90 that need to be replaced (some of these are not -ERs) and that's going to be a huge capital commitment. 10-15 seems like quite a low number to replace these.

How far out can the realistically stretch the 763s? Technically, I'm sure they can go on for a long while, but for pax appeal (given competitors' offerings), the timeframe is presumably a lot shorter?

My prediction would be 15 A330-300Es, with options on several more, and an agreement with Airbus to take these aircraft (and the other A330s) back in 2019-2020, to be replaced by A359s. Given the number of aircraft DL will need to replace, it does not seem realistic to expect that Boeing can/should replace all of them. Given the problems with the 787, I think it would be irresponsible for DL to put all/most of its eggs in that basket.

Let's look down the road a bit and make a few predictions:

777-300ER/779X - to replace 744
A350-900 - to replace 772ER/777LR/some A330s
787-9 - to replace 764/some A330s
787-8 - to replace 763

The A359 seems a bit big to replace the 763 and the A358 really isn't in the game anymore, so I am guessing that the 788 will be replacing most 763s.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: jetjack74
Posted 2013-03-20 22:14:25 and read 27534 times.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 12):
My conclusion is 777-200lr/300er, 787-A350 is out of the question unless A or B can find some extremely early delivery slots. I think this order will be for growth, I can see LAX-BNE, MEL and maybe LAX-China plus JFK-HKG, PEK, PVG and maybe back to India BOM, DEL.

If you want to be more realistic, add SEA-ICN, SEA-HKG, and SEA-LHR and delete the others and you'll have the most likely new routes.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: airtechy
Posted 2013-03-20 22:26:54 and read 28022 times.

I've often wondered where American sends all those 777's. It's not Asia or Europe.....must be South America where they aren't required for range. The loads must be really high.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: PIEAvantiP180
Posted 2013-03-20 22:47:10 and read 28157 times.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 25):

Yes but only one of those routes requires aircraft of 777 size and that is SEA-HKG, the rest can be done with 767/330 and can start tomorrow. We are talking about deliveries starting in two years and going for 2-3 years. I fully believe that by 2015-2017 time frame DL will need to launch some of those routes to stay competitive. Those routes may not work right now but I believe in 3-4 years time the traffic and economy will increase enough to warrant the flights. If they don't I fully expect that AA will. They will not win NYC unless they expand to China, India, Hong Kong and their competitors do, UA is already there in all those markets out of EWR.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: questions
Posted 2013-03-20 22:57:24 and read 28250 times.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 13):
I think DL is finally going to join the 77W bandwagon though.

Let's hope they don't join the 3-4-3 bandwagon!

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: jporterfi
Posted 2013-03-20 23:18:17 and read 28120 times.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 12):
back to India BOM, DEL

Would DL fly this route from JFK or ATL? I know they tried it from ATL serveral years ago with a 77L. I would say ATL because it has more connecting feed and a sizable number of Indians live in Atlanta, and although more Indians live in the NYC area, it is already well-served by UA via EWR and AI via EWR and JFK.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: B747forever
Posted 2013-03-20 23:27:59 and read 27968 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 28):

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 13):
I think DL is finally going to join the 77W bandwagon though.

Let's hope they don't join the 3-4-3 bandwagon!


Well that would assume passengers paying more for 3-3-3,which we all now they dont.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: Asiaflyer
Posted 2013-03-21 00:46:38 and read 27771 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 11):
Reading the article in states:

The order is for either A330 or 777.
This not for A350, 787, 777-X, 748, or any other "paper" aircraft, this is for current generation aircraft.


  
I wish everyone read the article before replying...

According to several reports, Delta is looking for 20 NBs as well. The original article only mentions NBs worth of USD 1 Bio.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...a-planeorder-idUSBRE92K03A20130321

"Potential orders involve about 20 each of the planemakers' most popular families of jets - the Airbus A320 or Boeing 737 in the medium-haul, narrow-body class and the Airbus A330 or Boeing 777 in the long-range, wide-body category, the people said."

[Edited 2013-03-21 00:50:22]

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: Wingtips56
Posted 2013-03-21 00:50:01 and read 27642 times.

Quoting airtechy (Reply 26):
I've often wondered where American sends all those 777's. It's not Asia or Europe.....must be South America where they aren't required for range. The loads must be really high.

AA does use 777 on all of their Asian routes, and many of their LHR routes, along with EZE and GRU. The 77W is in service to Brazil, just starting JFK-LHR and this fall LAX-LHR. (They only have received four of them so far, so just wait for the fleet to build.) As the 77W fleet builds, expect some of the 772ERs to start replacing the 763 on more volume Euro and South American routes. As the AA 772s are reconfigured and upgraded to full-flat Business, DL will need to match their product to compete, so I see them going with the 77W too.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: RWA380
Posted 2013-03-21 02:01:21 and read 27215 times.

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 7):
My guess would be 747-8's to replace the 747-400's...

Very nice suggestion, I hope it comes true. It would be sad to not have one American carrier flying the 747 any longer.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 8):
The biggest hint is in this sentence, "Purchasing the jets would bridge Delta’s wide-body needs until the end of the decade … "

If this order will be to cover expected retirements, I'd give the A330 the nod as it's a lighter jet, and there's nothing on the horizon to be retired in the 747/777 fleets by the end of the decade that I'm aware of.

If this order will be for expansion, I'd expect the order to go to the 777

If indeed they are trying to bridge a gap between now and 2020, and no 744's or 777's are scheduled before 2020, then my assumption is that DL wants a direct 767 replacement, therefore I'd expect A330's, even though I think DL is ripe for the 77W.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 25):

If you want to be more realistic, add SEA-ICN, SEA-HKG, and SEA-LHR and delete the others and you'll have the most likely new routes.

I think you are right, if International expansion is indeed the reason for some new widebodies, then I'd expect DL will start building up their Seattle hub. I know they have SEA-ICN with Skyteam on KE, If DL does send it's own metal it will likely be a 767 or 330, at least at first, that is hard to compete with those carriers flying larger 777 or 747 aircraft.

The same idea for SEA-LHR unless DL wants to operate a 777, BA will always have the upper hand on the route with a 744, twice daily during the summer. But DL would likely start with a 763 or 330 for LHR, and once again how well does DL stack up vs BA on this route? I think this was in part the issue with the first attempt SEA-LHR, the other being the flight times.

With SEA-HKG, I think DL would start with a 77L or 744, just due to the flight distance, but also the cargo possibilities.
Since there is no direct competition on this route, it could be a winner, however it has been flown by United on DC-10-30's and again by NW on 747's in the past, and it's still vacant, I think there must be a reason why.

It's my understanding that these new aircraft would help bridge a gap of retiring 767's and new aircraft delivery next decade.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-03-21 02:12:03 and read 27235 times.

Over the next 5-10 years, Delta biggest international need is to continue building a Pacific network that isn't centered on NRT. I'd think that would provide some clues.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: DLPMMM
Posted 2013-03-21 02:25:45 and read 27150 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 32):

FYI, all of DL's 777s, 764s and 747s already have full flat business. Delta is also in the process of converting the rest of their 763 ERs to full flat. I think an announcement was also made about the A330s to also get full flat, but I am not positive. AA is the carrier playing catch-up in the biz class hard product.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: realsim
Posted 2013-03-21 04:19:40 and read 25523 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 18):
They could definitely use a 77W on GRU ....they have to keep up with AA in the Brazilian market.

ANd not to stir the pot more.....maybe they will order all 330s and open up a S. American routes from LAX and MIA.
Quoting yellowtail (Reply 18):
But there will be two years of distractions first. ample time for DL to experiment IMHO

That would be valid if DL gets all the new aircraft right now, but as the article states, "deliveries would start within a few years", so we have to assume that when they start taking delivery of these new aircraft, AA/US will be fully integrated (and hopefully expanding).

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-03-21 04:25:36 and read 25445 times.

With Delta's Asian routes 777 would be better then A330's. The A330 are good for the Atlantic and deep Latin America, with the 767ER fleet DL has more then enough planes to cover that, but not for Asia if DL future is to over fly Japan. Detroit to beyond Japan needs a 777.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: PIEAvantiP180
Posted 2013-03-21 04:48:08 and read 24946 times.

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 29):
Would DL fly this route from JFK or ATL?

I think they will try this out of JFK, if nothing else then just because of shorter stage length then flying this route out of ATL. JFK is linked with all the major US population centers that have large O&D traffic flows to and from India. I'm sticking to my belief that these aircraft will be for expansion and that expansion will be directed towards Asia and that's why this order will be 777-200LR/300ER. The 773ER should be a perfect aircraft for JFK-BOM, DEL. Part of the reason why the last attempt failed was that 772LR is the wrong plane for the route CASM wise. India is long stage lengths and low yields. So a 773ER with the same business section as the DL 772LR and large economy class is the way to go on these routes, that should bring the CASM down and possibly make this flight profitable. If DL sticks to 9 abreast in Y i believe we can expect the 773ER to have about the same amount of seats as a Air Canada 773ER with around 350 seats, that would be about 80 seats more then DL 772LR with roughly the same trip costs, perfect aircraft for low yield large volume destinations.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: rbgso
Posted 2013-03-21 05:09:40 and read 24526 times.

Maybe they could dust off some of the L1011s in the desert and refurb those...... 

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2013-03-21 05:36:09 and read 23901 times.

As they already operate 333 and 777 a small top up order for each seems likely.

Anyone know if they have paid for options on either and if so how many?

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: ERJ170
Posted 2013-03-21 05:38:36 and read 23912 times.

In my humble opinion, this is a 777 order and not a 330 order... Time will tell but DL has had option to buy 320 family for narrow body and went 737... I believe this will be the same... They wil go 777 with the intention that some of these replacing some 330s later on... They will more than likely take up the 787 to replace their 767, eventually when DL feels the 767 is ready to go..

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-03-21 05:40:35 and read 23819 times.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 40):
Anyone know if they have paid for options on either and if so how many?

They have both near-term 777 options (enough to make a difference) and 737 options. I think the first fact probably comes into play here.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: Coronado
Posted 2013-03-21 06:27:39 and read 22679 times.

Could they be looking toward the JV with Virgin and roll out a common transatlantic 330 fleet offering?

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: goldenstate
Posted 2013-03-21 06:30:58 and read 22611 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 34):
Over the next 5-10 years, Delta biggest international need is to continue building a Pacific network that isn't centered on NRT. I'd think that would provide some clues.

   Agreed. I would add this: if you think about what that network looks like, there is probably a sweet spot in terms of exactly how much lift/range is needed. Which is to say, there is such a thing as more than necessary.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 42):
They have both near-term 777 options (enough to make a difference) and 737 options. I think the first fact probably comes into play here.

Agreed here as well, although engines could be an issue. Incumbency with multiple OEMs is certainly the best way to determine which one is better.

Certainly will be interesting to see what the outcome is.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-03-21 06:32:30 and read 22586 times.

Best part of a.net is speculating on aircraft orders, IMHO.

DL has said they intend to keep the 747-400 through the later part of this decade. I bet that Boeing would make them a great deal to keep the 747-8i line running with relatively fast delivery dates. Also, Airbus would sell their corporate kidney to get the A380 on the property of a U.S. Carrier. I tend to go with those who see these as primarily growth frames--they will probably retire some of the older 767-300ER's. Pacific capacity is critical, particularly to China and our Asian customers are very sensitive to state-of-the-art aircraft with all the bells and whistles. They might go with a few 77W's but I don't see them adding more 77L's to the fleet. DL definitely wants more growth from JFK and LAX.

One thing I don't think I have seen mentioned is freight capacity, always a profitable area. For years I heard "if the freight holds are full, the flight is paid for. The passengers are pure profit at that point." With current fuel prices I am not so sure that is true anymore.

I could see DL "cherry-picking" a few South American cities but I don't think they want to get in a battle with AA. The opening of additional Brazilian slots might have some interest in the DL boardroom.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-03-21 06:38:23 and read 22444 times.

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 44):
there is probably a sweet spot in terms of exactly how much lift/range is needed. Which is to say, there is such a thing as more than necessary.

If DL bought the 77W, they'd be able to right-size virtually any international market going into the 2020s with a long haul fleet consisting of:

752 - 763 - 764 - A332 - A333 - 77E - 77L - 77W - 744

Something of almost everything (except A340 & A380) to hit any sweet spot.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: bkflyguy
Posted 2013-03-21 06:50:38 and read 22138 times.

I fully expect Delta to announce an international expansion out of JFK once the new T4 comes on line this summer. Especially JFK to Asia flights. They likely need those to win corporate contracts in NYC. I would also expect a slight increase in JFK to South America flights. Not a massive expansion but a few destinations and maybe more frequencies. They have more than enough 767ERs to fly Europe pt2pt if and when the European economy recovers. I also think there will be a modest expansion out of LAX and SEA. Depending on the routes, maybe a split order between A333 and 777? Will be fun to see.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2013-03-21 07:17:37 and read 21551 times.

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 7):
My guess would be 747-8's to replace the 747-400's...

I've just converted to a DL diehard...as far-fetched as it seems, some of the longer 744 routes would be perfect for the 747-8i, and in my opinion, the 8i would look fabulous with a widget on it!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 8):
If this order will be to cover expected retirements, I'd give the A330 the nod as it's a lighter jet, and there's nothing on the horizon to be retired in the 747/777 fleets by the end of the decade that I'm aware of.

If this order will be for expansion, I'd expect the order to go to the 777.

I would tend to agree with this, but that being said, Im crossing my fingers for more 330's.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 11):
763ERs, some of the older frames will be approaching the end of their usable life within the next few years. Plus you have the domestic 763s that in theory are going to be replaced by on their routes by 753s. It is possible this order will be to backfill any retirements of 763ERs and domestic 763s, and it may be possible to see some 763ERs pushed down into some domestic flying. Are they doing mods on all of the 763s?

Wasnt DL one of the earliest 763ER customers?

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 11):
The 777 and A330 are different airplanes with different route profiles. Look back to the early 2000s when NW decided to go with the A330 versus the 777 as to some of the factors to consider. The 777 is likely too much airplane for most of DL's TATL flights, when an A330 is perfectly sufficient on a range & capacity basis. However, they could go 77W which then bridges the gap and becomes more of a 744 replacement. They could split the order. DL by all accounts is very happy with the A330 and could easily use more A332s & A333s. Do they really need more 77E or 77L? Seems like they would be more likely to go 77W if they go with anymore 777s.

Heck they may split it up to the point where they pick 332's, 333's, and a mix of 777's.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 18):
They could definitely use a 77W on GRU ....they have to keep up with AA in the Brazilian market.

They just announced they are upgauging all 763 flights to Brazil to a 744. Im not sure on the time frame though...

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: L1011TGU
Posted 2013-03-21 07:31:11 and read 21085 times.

Quoting rbgso (Reply 39):
Quoting rbgso (Reply 39):
Maybe they could dust off some of the L1011s in the desert and refurb those...... 

I would have to be in favor of this proposition...

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: AngMoh
Posted 2013-03-21 08:01:51 and read 20449 times.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 41):
In my humble opinion, this is a 777 order and not a 330 order... Time will tell but DL has had option to buy 320 family for narrow body and went 737... I believe this will be the same... They wil go 777 with the intention that some of these replacing some 330s later on... They will more than likely take up the 787 to replace their 767, eventually when DL feels the 767 is ready to go..

It depends what market it is for, but an A330 order will fit the Delta pattern of choosing a relatively efficient plane towards its end of production at a low capital outlay.

DL has clearly mentioned in the past that their business model is based on low CAPEX.

Of course, if the new fleet needs to cross the pacific, only the 77W will work....

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: infiniti329
Posted 2013-03-21 08:03:04 and read 20393 times.

I think it will be a spilt order. This should make airbus happy as they havent scored anything with DL since the merger.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: Gonzalo
Posted 2013-03-21 08:15:33 and read 20238 times.

Ed Bastian is saying DL is not going to place any WB order in the foreseeable future.

He says Delta's policy of "updating and modernising" its aircraft means it has the youngest widebody fleet among the major US carriers, with an average age of 12 years, and as such it has no "additional needs".

"We made a decision several years ago that we were not going to be growing that widebody fleet," he adds, noting that the airline recently invested around $1 billion on refurbishing its aircraft interiors.


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...new-widebody-order-bastian-383726/

Rgds.
G.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-03-21 08:22:27 and read 19877 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 52):

Ed Bastian is saying DL is not going to place any WB order in the foreseeable future.

Which means zero international growth for Delta between now and sometime in the mid-2020s, seeing as the 787s coming online are mainly for fleet replacement. Who believes that? Zero international growth for the next 10-15 years? I sure don't.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2013-03-21 08:30:49 and read 19648 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 53):
Which means zero international growth for Delta between now and sometime in the mid-2020s, seeing as the 787s coming online are mainly for fleet replacement. Who believes that? Zero international growth for the next 10-15 years? I sure don't.

Delta's in a pretty good spot Internationally right now...but, as with all businesses, we'll see in the next few years. The new mods work, and the current fleet is amazing (except the 763's, but only because I've had too many segments on them), but we'll see what happens in the near future.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: UA787DEN
Posted 2013-03-21 08:53:29 and read 19186 times.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 51):

I think it will be a spilt order. This should make airbus happy as they havent scored anything with DL since the merger.

I would hope so, but due to the size of the order and the potential planes this order is replacing, I doubt it.
I have to agree its either a 332 order to replace the oldest 763ERs, or some sort of 777 order (77W or -8X) to replace the 744s.

777-8X Launch Customer?

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-03-21 09:20:55 and read 18706 times.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 48):
They just announced they are upgauging all 763 flights to Brazil to a 744. Im not sure on the time frame though...

We're you here that? This is news to me..

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-03-21 09:38:35 and read 18309 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 45):
For years I heard "if the freight holds are full, the flight is paid for.

That has been said a few times on Anet, but no one has ever given numbers that would show that to be true. The cargo revenue is a goodsuplement to the pax revenue on a passenger aircraft but would never pay for the flight expences.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-03-21 10:01:55 and read 17793 times.

I wonder, why do so many users here think this order will be to replace existing aircraft? Fact is, DL has spent millions of dollars upgrading the interiors of its existing widebody fleet, and is in no hurry to replace them. I can ensure with 99% confidence that this order will be for international expansion, thus giving the 777 the advantage over the A330. DL is just using its bargaining power to get a better deal on the 777.

[Edited 2013-03-21 10:03:27]

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-03-21 10:02:14 and read 17755 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 56):
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 45):
For years I heard "if the freight holds are full, the flight is paid for.

That has been said a few times on Anet, but no one has ever given numbers that would show that to be true. The cargo revenue is a goodsuplement to the pax revenue on a passenger aircraft but would never pay for the flight expences.

Probably as a general statement, it may not hold water, but I think that, in some cases, it depends on the type of equipment, destination, what KIND of cargo you are hauling.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2013-03-21 10:03:32 and read 17765 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 55):
We're you here that? This is news to me..

The first place I read it in was last months Airways magazine on the state of each of the majors. The secon place I heard it from was from my Travel Agent Skyteam Update. I've gotta ig through my mail to find it, but Ill get it.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-03-21 10:33:39 and read 17165 times.

Perhaps a DL option is to go for 'substitution' rather than 'replacement'.

DL could choose to order new A333 and/or B777 aircraft to substitute aircraft on existing A332 routes or B763 routes, and use the freed B763 and A332 to commence new services.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: cv880
Posted 2013-03-21 11:36:11 and read 15979 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 33):

Over the next 5-10 years, Delta biggest international need is to continue building a Pacific network that isn't centered on NRT. I'd think that would provide some clues.

And if DL wants to remain even or move ahead of the competition, this would involve more Pacific routes from both JFK and LAX, which would require the 77W as in CX. No other current aircraft, other than the 748, makes sense.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-03-21 11:43:50 and read 15892 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 57):
I wonder, why do so many users here think this order will be to replace existing aircraft?

For me it's because the simple fact is that the oldest 763ER will turn 24 years old next month. New interior or not, there's not too many more years on those airframes. And if you don't start replacing some of the fleet now, you'll soon hit a time when you're continuously spending money replacing aircraft. You don't want to get into that scenario.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: Spacepope
Posted 2013-03-21 12:07:25 and read 15457 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 62):
For me it's because the simple fact is that the oldest 763ER will turn 24 years old next month. New interior or not, there's not too many more years on those airframes. And if you don't start replacing some of the fleet now, you'll soon hit a time when you're continuously spending money replacing aircraft. You don't want to get into that scenario.

And from the FAA, as of November, N171DN had over 104,000 hours and 15,000 cycles on it. Budget about 4000 hours a year and you're in replacement territory very soon.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: Prost
Posted 2013-03-21 12:10:36 and read 15353 times.

Isn't there slack in 767 fleet? As some of the frames max out, do they need to be replaced at all? The oldest 747-400s also are hitting 24 years, first flying in 1989. Delta seems to have a lot more flexibility in the 200-300 seat category than they do with the 325+ seat category.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-03-21 12:39:49 and read 14793 times.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 63):
And from the FAA, as of November, N171DN had over 104,000 hours and 15,000 cycles on it. Budget about 4000 hours a year and you're in replacement territory very soon.

I figured the hours on that one must be high, but not that high. Wow. Yeah, there's not too much flying life left on it.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-03-21 12:44:34 and read 14666 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 57):
I can ensure with 99% confidence that this order will be for international expansion, thus giving the 777 the advantage over the A330

Two questons. Why are you 99% sure that the aicraft will be for international expansion and what advantage dos the 777 have over the A330 for this new service?

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: dergay
Posted 2013-03-21 12:54:49 and read 14484 times.

Quoting rbgso (Reply 38):
Maybe they could dust off some of the L1011s in the desert and refurb those.....

No such luck - having just seen an RAF L-1011 rise from MLA, it brought back memories of a magnificent aircraft that I enjoyed travelling in, both within Europe and across the pond.............
Thanks for the memories   

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-03-21 12:59:01 and read 14415 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 66):
Two questons. Why are you 99% sure that the aicraft will be for international expansion and what advantage dos the 777 have over the A330 for this new service?

The 777 has more range and can open up more new destinations. Also Delta has fewer 777s than AA or UA, and I am pretty sure that DL would like more of them. DL has plenty of aircraft in the 767 and A330 size and range categories, and doesn't really need any more.

Fact is, DL was using their bargaining power before they ordered the 737-900ER, and they are likely doing the same to get a better deal on more 77Ls or the 77W.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: B757forever
Posted 2013-03-21 13:08:07 and read 14217 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 65):
Yeah, there's not too much flying life left on it.

The cycles are relatively low and that is what matters the most. The 767 overall has aged well with very few chronic structural maintenance issues. The DL 767s including ship 171 will soldier on for more years than most seem to think.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 39):
Anyone know if they have paid for options on either and if so how many?

DL currently has options for 16 777 aircraft and 30 737 aircraft. I suspect this may eventually become orders for 777s to replace the 747-400 and possibly an additional 30 737-900ERs.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-03-21 13:13:24 and read 14158 times.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 69):
The cycles are relatively low and that is what matters the most. The 767 overall has aged well with very few chronic structural maintenance issues. The DL 767s including ship 171 will soldier on for more years than most seem to think.

Also remember that the 767 has a higher cycle limit than most widebody aircraft, since it was designed with both domestic and international routes in mind, giving airlines a balanced option.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: compensateme
Posted 2013-03-21 13:15:21 and read 14131 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 68):
The 777 has more range and can open up more new destinations. Also Delta has fewer 777s than AA or UA, and I am pretty sure that DL would like more of them. DL has plenty of aircraft in the 767 and A330 size and range categories, and doesn't really need any more.

Fact is, DL was using their bargaining power before they ordered the 737-900ER, and they are likely doing the same to get a better deal on more 77Ls or the 77W.


Spot on! Delta needs more 777 to compete with AA & UA's larger fleets. But whatever fleet type DL chooses. we need to address the important questions:

- Will Delta finally install the "Cozy Suites," or will it continue to utilize Weber 5751 seating with integrated Panasonic Eco9i monitors?
- Will Delta continue to include air vents within its PSUs?
- Will Delta install its award-winning 3D seat markers, or will it continue with its flat, hard-to-read 2D seat markers?
- Will these planes feature new mood lighting?

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: goldenstate
Posted 2013-03-21 13:18:42 and read 13998 times.

Quoting compensateme (Reply 71):

Spot on! Delta needs more 777 to compete with AA & UA's larger fleets. But whatever fleet type DL chooses. we need to address the important questions:

- Will Delta finally install the "Cozy Suites," or will it continue to utilize Weber 5751 seating with integrated Panasonic Eco9i monitors?
- Will Delta continue to include air vents within its PSUs?
- Will Delta install its award-winning 3D seat markers, or will it continue with its flat, hard-to-read 2D seat markers?
- Will these planes feature new mood lighting?

You forgot the most important question: will there be one with pink leather seats?

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-03-21 13:35:43 and read 13681 times.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 69):

The cycles are relatively low and that is what matters the most. The 767 overall has aged well with very few chronic structural maintenance issues. The DL 767s including ship 171 will soldier on for more years than most seem to think.

In this case the hours will be the limiting factor. At this rate it will be pushing all-time airliner records in 5-6 years.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-03-21 13:50:24 and read 13469 times.

Quoting L1011TGU (Reply 48):
Quoting rbgso (Reply 39):
Maybe they could dust off some of the L1011s in the desert and refurb those...... 

I would have to be in favor of this proposition...

Where do I buy my L1011 tickets? COUNT ME IN!!!

Right now I think most PAX care more about price than the age of the aircraft, a lot of people I know may fly a super old 737-200 with new interiors and leather, and think its better than a 738 with worn interiors...

Delta will squeeze all they can from their fleet before changing it, the name of the game is COST cutting, and they will also use their buying power to make very sweet deals be it A or B.

BTW there is no chance in hell an american carrier will order a 380...

Regards

TRB

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-03-21 14:09:43 and read 13063 times.

Quoting compensateme (Reply 71):
Spot on! Delta needs more 777 to compete with AA & UA's larger fleets. But whatever fleet type DL chooses. we need to address the important questions:

- Will Delta finally install the "Cozy Suites," or will it continue to utilize Weber 5751 seating with integrated Panasonic Eco9i monitors?
- Will Delta continue to include air vents within its PSUs?
- Will Delta install its award-winning 3D seat markers, or will it continue with its flat, hard-to-read 2D seat markers?
- Will these planes feature new mood lighting?

I would really like to know the answers to these questions also!

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: Spacepope
Posted 2013-03-21 14:11:15 and read 13025 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 73):
In this case the hours will be the limiting factor. At this rate it will be pushing all-time airliner records in 5-6 years.

Indeed, I have a feeling that it'll serve until it's due for its next heavy check and then it's done. IIRC the Martinair ones scrapped recently were pushing 110,000 hours.

That being said, adding a few in the 70-80,000 hour range wouldn't be all that bad of an idea. Heck, the non-ERs that DL flies have less than 80,000 on them.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-03-21 14:22:03 and read 13088 times.

Quoting compensateme (Reply 71):
- Will Delta finally install the "Cozy Suites," or will it continue to utilize Weber 5751 seating with integrated Panasonic Eco9i monitors?
- Will Delta continue to include air vents within its PSUs?
- Will Delta install its award-winning 3D seat markers, or will it continue with its flat, hard-to-read 2D seat markers?
- Will these planes feature new mood lighting?

Answers:
- DL has scrapped the Cozy Suite plans a long time ago. If ordered, they will either have Weber 5751 or B/E Aerospace Pinnacle with the Panasonic Eco 9i monitors.
- I presume yes, since the 77L order had them, and I have actually heard that the 76Gs will be retrofitted with them after mods.
- This one I am not sure. DL has largely backed away from the 3-D seat markers in favor of a less 3-D version, including in all EC seats.
- Probably, since the 739ERs will have it.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-03-21 14:24:34 and read 13016 times.

DL ia historically a very aggressive competitor. I think they are watching the AA/US deal closely to see what happens and determine why synergies result, then they will make their decision.

I agree with the write that said DL did not invest so heavily in T4 at JFK without obvious plans for its use. Also the new international terminal in ATL. They have already said they want to expand LAX and SEA internationally.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-03-21 14:27:08 and read 12983 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 78):
I agree with the write that said DL did not invest so heavily in T4 at JFK without obvious plans for its use. Also the new international terminal in ATL. They have already said they want to expand LAX and SEA internationally.

Four corners of growth. Count on it.

Its going to get interesting.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: trex8
Posted 2013-03-21 15:08:33 and read 12396 times.

Denied by Bastian

"
Speaking to journalists at a press conference in London, he described reports that the airline is studying a purchase of further Airbus A330s and Boeing 777s as "interesting", but said he did not see such an order as "necessary in the near future"."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...new-widebody-order-bastian-383726/

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: Prost
Posted 2013-03-21 15:24:19 and read 12116 times.

It may not be necessary, but if it afforded growth in profits above the cost of acquiring the aircraft, it might be optimal.

Notice he didn't come outright and say "we are not negotiating for any additional widebody aircraft at this time" This is how conspiracy theories begin.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-03-21 15:38:17 and read 11945 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 32):
With SEA-HKG, I think DL would start with a 77L or 744, just due to the flight distance, but also the cargo possibilities.
Since there is no direct competition on this route, it could be a winner, however it has been flown by United on DC-10-30's

The 3 DC-10-30s leased by UA from CP for 3 or 4 years for use on the SEA-HKG route were -30ER models with an extra fuel tank in the cargo compartment.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 47):
Wasnt DL one of the earliest 763ER customers?

DL was the 11th customer to order the 763ER and the 13th to take delivery.

DL was the 2nd customer for the non-ER standard 763 (after JAL).

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 57):
why do so many users here think this order will be to replace existing aircraft? Fact is, DL has spent millions of dollars upgrading the interiors of its existing widebody fleet, and is in no hurry to replace them.

Interior upgrades are required for competitive reasons but those expenses are minor in comparison with the cost savings and increased revenue-generating abilities of current-generation aircraft like the 77W.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: BDL757
Posted 2013-03-21 18:25:43 and read 10029 times.

I've also been hearing about a possible A321 order lately.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: PSU.DTW.SCE
Posted 2013-03-21 19:05:48 and read 9583 times.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 52):
Ed Bastian is saying DL is not going to place any WB order in the foreseeable future.
Quoting Spacepope (Reply 76):
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 73):
In this case the hours will be the limiting factor. At this rate it will be pushing all-time airliner records in 5-6 years.


Indeed, I have a feeling that it'll serve until it's due for its next heavy check and then it's done. IIRC the Martinair ones scrapped recently were pushing 110,000 hours.

Yep, it will ultimately come down to the economics of doing HMVs on aircraft of that age/cycles. They'll fly until they come due.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 80):
Denied by Bastian

"
Speaking to journalists at a press conference in London, he described reports that the airline is studying a purchase of further Airbus A330s and Boeing 777s as "interesting", but said he did not see such an order as "necessary in the near future"."

Either:
A) Bastain is doing the oh-so-typical "corporate non-speak" where DL is not in a position to make a public disclosure on the matter.
B) Someone leaked a story to the media where they probably shouldn't have - usually caused some very sternly worded emails/messages to the people who are involved with the study/deal to keep their mouths (or keyboards) shuts.
C) The media ran with an unsubstantiated rumor (wouldn't be the first, nor will it be the last time)

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 83):
I've also been hearing about a possible A321 order lately.

Ugh. From pilots and a.net. This rumor has been out there for awhile with no basis specifically for A321s and it continues to get dusted-off.

The study for additional narrowbodies was at least acknowledged by DL a few months ago nowhere did it say any particular type.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-03-21 19:12:01 and read 9564 times.

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 3):

Perfect number to replace the 16 744's.

Except 4.3 billion divided by 20 is a long way off the list price of a 748, the price would suggest 787-8 sized aircraft.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: compensateme
Posted 2013-03-21 19:13:28 and read 9580 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 79):
Four corners of growth. Count on it.

Its going to get interesting.

The 777 is simply too large an aircraft to overfly NRT from DL's trunk hubs. Ultimately, DL was able to fill DTW/HKG with the assistance of bucket shops but obviously not at fare levels that proved sustainable ... transitioning the flight to SEA or ATL isn't going to solve the problem. The 787 would be better suited to develop these routes (DTW/ATL-HKG, MSP-ICN, etc.); and although less efficient, the 763 is already capable of serving most anything from SEA.

Overflying NRT from JFK & LAX adds little network value and relies almost exclusively on competing for the local markets. If DL could successfully compete against the establishments, it'd reap big rewards ... but if it's unsuccessful, it winds up with billions of dollars in aircraft that it has little use elsewhere for (and given their end-of-design-life status, could rapidly depreciate).

Although over the past several years, DL's cut most secondary Atlantic routes from ATL & (seasonally) JFK and reallocated most of that capacity across the system to AMS & CDG. I don't see that strategy changing anytime soon. Perhaps DL wants to upgauge capacity on these truck hub->hub routes to most efficiently compete.

But personally, I wouldn't place my bets on a DL 333/777 order.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: compensateme
Posted 2013-03-21 19:14:41 and read 9550 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 1):
I expect it would be another 77L order, or possibly even the 77W. DL is using its bargaining power to get a better deal from Boeing, as they did with the 739ER order.

I hope DL chooses the 777 over the 330. DL passengers much prefer aircraft with pivot bins  .

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: flyabr
Posted 2013-03-21 20:22:03 and read 9179 times.

Bastian quote from the article:

“opportunities in the marketplace selectively to add to our wide bodies.”

That almost sounds like adding used aircraft to me!

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-03-21 23:09:24 and read 8790 times.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 84):
Either:
A) Bastain is doing the oh-so-typical "corporate non-speak" where DL is not in a position to make a public disclosure on the matter.
B) Someone leaked a story to the media where they probably shouldn't have - usually caused some very sternly worded emails/messages to the people who are involved with the study/deal to keep their mouths (or keyboards) shuts.
C) The media ran with an unsubstantiated rumor (wouldn't be the first, nor will it be the last time)

I think that of these A or B is most likely; Bastian knows better than all of us that time is running out for the 763 fleet and if they want to be in a position to replace all of them and still be competitive/attractive to the flying public, then they need to start thinking of that sooner rather than later. Votes for waiting until 2020 for the first 763 replacement? Not too many - though no doubt DL's competitors would be delighted by the prospect.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: VictorKilo
Posted 2013-03-22 04:48:33 and read 8294 times.

Of Delta's 58 strong 767-300ER fleet, 19 of them are 20 years old or older (including the 6 -3P6 variants), and the next oldest aircraft is Delta's only -324 variant. I think this would be a good starting point for retirement with any new widebody aircraft order.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: JerseyFlyer
Posted 2013-03-22 06:25:10 and read 7844 times.

Quoting flyabr (Reply 88):
Bastian quote from the article:

“opportunities in the marketplace selectively to add to our wide bodies.”

That almost sounds like adding used aircraft to me!

AI 77Ls?

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: dbo861
Posted 2013-03-22 07:29:41 and read 7630 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 89):
Bastian knows better than all of us that time is running out for the 763 fleet and if they want to be in a position to replace all of them and still be competitive/attractive to the flying public, then they need to start thinking of that sooner rather than later.

Have you been on one of their 763s with the updated interior? It's like riding on a brand new aircraft. I'd take that over an A330 any day. They wouldn't invest millions of dollars for new interiors if they're going to be replaced in the near future.

Besides, this rumored order isn't to replace 763s, that's what the 787 is for when they start arriving in 2020.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: Prost
Posted 2013-03-22 08:55:49 and read 7421 times.

In this article:

http://finance.yahoo.com/video/delta...air-lines-ceo-state-201000208.html

On CNBC Richard Anderson talks a out the rumors.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: redzeppelin
Posted 2013-03-22 09:19:32 and read 7278 times.

Quoting Prost (Reply 93):
On CNBC Richard Anderson talks a out the rumors.

"I would buy a 787-1000 today if they were ready for production." Interesting.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: Hypoxik
Posted 2013-03-22 09:29:26 and read 7216 times.

Mix 77L/W is what is being thrown around ATL.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: FreshSide3
Posted 2013-03-22 14:53:38 and read 6631 times.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 32):
I think you are right, if International expansion is indeed the reason for some new widebodies, then I'd expect DL will start building up their Seattle hub. I know they have SEA-ICN with Skyteam on KE, If DL does send it's own metal it will likely be a 767 or 330, at least at first, that is hard to compete with those carriers flying larger 777 or 747 aircraft.

Keep in mind, though, there is Russian factor...........most of the Russians that live in Seattle are from places in the East...like Khabarovsk, Sakhalin, Nahodka, Vladivostok, etc..........SU used to have flights out of SEA/SFO/ANC to KHV but haven't existed in a few years. There are not that many connection options.....and most of them happen to be at ICN on either KE or OZ. Only other way to get to those places is to go to Moscow--which incidentally has no direct flight, so you're taking the real "long way"----which often happens. You will get a certain amount of people that would be willing to pay extra for a more convenient route.

Topic: RE: Delta Studying 10-20 Widebodies Order
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-03-23 13:43:16 and read 5591 times.

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 94):
"I would buy a 787-1000 today if they were ready for production." Interesting.

Except there is no such thing. But, of course, there is an A350-1000!   


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/