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Topic: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: celestar
Posted 2013-03-24 18:56:55 and read 18059 times.

My neighbour who is a EVA pilot told me how profitable their new line of A321 is, given it carries close to 200 pax and it is a 1/3 cost as compared with A332 EVA currently flies. This raised a question in my mind.

Does it makes sense, for regional short flight, where the range of A321 as compared with A332 or B772 or others, is not a consideration, does it make sense to fly in a bigger aircraft than using a Airbus A320 series or B737?
Why would company like CX not having a fleet of A320 or B737 for its intra-Asia destination, is it because of KA being part of the group? What then make sense, to fly B747-400 between Taipei and Hong Kong, aside just because it is sitting there and not being used - aircraft rotation perhaps?

Before this conversation with my neighbour, I thought a long range aircraft with a lot more capacity, carrying lesser of a fuel would be close in terms of cost, as compared with a dedicated short rante regional aircraft, how wrong I was, considering what I have been told? Is that a true statement?

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: Braniff747SP
Posted 2013-03-24 19:55:44 and read 17858 times.

Quoting celestar (Thread starter):
What then make sense, to fly B747-400 between Taipei and Hong Kong, aside just because it is sitting there and not being used - aircraft rotation perhaps?

I'd defer to the airline's management on this one--obviously they find the current system to be equally or superior interms of profitability versus what you propose.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: web500sjc
Posted 2013-03-24 20:09:10 and read 17778 times.

Quoting celestar (Thread starter):
What then make sense, to fly B747-400 between Taipei and Hong Kong, aside just because it is sitting there and not being used - aircraft rotation perhaps?

higher capacity = less flights, especially at a slot controlled airport, like i believe HKG is.

Less aircraft, less aircraft types = reduced capital costs and less training costs.

it probably comes down to whether you can make more money by introducing a new type / plan as compared to the current arrangement

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: BreninTW
Posted 2013-03-24 20:16:55 and read 17719 times.

Also, for carriers like CX, on the TPE-HKG route, they're not flying wide-bodies for the passengers, but for the enormous quantity of cargo that is moved between the two airports.

While the aircraft may often been less than full upstairs, they're pretty much always packed to the gills downstairs.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: sierra3tango
Posted 2013-03-24 21:12:10 and read 17545 times.

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 2):
higher capacity = less flights, especially at a slot controlled airport, like i believe HKG is.

Less aircraft, less aircraft types = reduced capital costs and less training costs.

Maybe also better utilisation of the fleet

EK doesn't have any NBs, the only airline in the region not to. For example the usual equipment on DXB / BAH (~1 hour ew) is a A330 but sometimes its a 777 of whatever sub type. The route probably doesn't warrant a WB maybe 3 daily but assume it ups the fleet utilisation at a marginal additional cost (v a NB)

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: davidho1985
Posted 2013-03-24 23:10:20 and read 17282 times.

Fuel cost is only one factor.

For example, for CX, you don't need to invest in a fleet of NB, therefore, no capital costs; no crew trainning; no spare parts etc.
CX need every WB they have to support their long haul flights. Those WBs will sitting in HKG for the period that are long enought for them to fly the regional flights. The saving from these costs will out-weight the additional fuel cost. Therefore, CX is better off by using WB on the regional flights, in stead of having a fleet of NB.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-03-24 23:21:56 and read 17243 times.

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 2):
less flights, especially at a slot controlled airport

QF use the 767 (and A330) on SYD-MEL/BNE, which are about 1 hour in the air. At certain times a day SYD-MEL is up to every 15 minutes as it is. Going the 737 would require something like an extra 2-3 flights per hour, not a good use of slots.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2013-03-25 01:06:36 and read 16963 times.

With the same price per seat, a modern widebody aircraft when filled will always beat a narrowbody if the widebody is filled.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: TK787
Posted 2013-03-25 01:33:25 and read 16862 times.

TK uses 332/333/343 for domestic flights when needed for flights sometimes only 45min. (IST-ADB comes to mind, only 204 miles)

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: neutrino
Posted 2013-03-25 02:18:57 and read 16715 times.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 4):
EK doesn't have any NBs, the only airline in the region not to.


So does SQ in S.E.A.
Though it's wholly-owned subsidiary Silkair 's fleet is all single aisle, it is still a separate entity nonetheless.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: VV701
Posted 2013-03-25 03:32:33 and read 16084 times.

BA have a fleet of 21 763ERs. Of these seven are configured for short-haul operations. They are scheduled to operate various routes that include LHR-AMS (231 miles), LHR-EDI (331 miles) and LHR-GLA (345 miles). I believe that the only routes on the BA LHR network that are shorter than the longest of these three are to MAN (151 miles), CDG (216 miles), BRU (218 miles), ORY (226 miles) and LUX (320 miles). And when this type entered service with BA in February1990 it initially operated LHR-CDG replacing the L-1011 TriStar. So BA have operated twin-aisle aircraft on short short-haul routes for several decades.

Apart from passenger demand at peak travel times another reason that BA operates the 763ER on many short-haul routes is its large hold. This satisfies cargo carrying demand on many short-haul routes during off peak times.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: b2319
Posted 2013-03-25 04:59:40 and read 15134 times.

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 5):
CX need every WB they have to support their long haul flights. Those WBs will sitting in HKG for the period that are long enought for them to fly the regional flights. The saving from these costs will out-weight the additional fuel cost. Therefore, CX is better off by using WB on the regional flights, in stead of having a fleet of NB.

Can you please back these statements up with some data?

I have contrary information via this link; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21766398 and I quote: "Mr Pratt added that high fuel costs had hurt Cathay's profitability, especially on long-haul routes, which it said were dominated by "older, less fuel-efficient, Boeing 747-400 and Airbus A340-300 aircraft". "

I have seen some crazy offers on CX/KA in the last year, such as CNY 1560 all-inclusive for PVG to BKK, which I took myself. None of these discounted flights were using KA's narrowbodies. I would therefore argue that in times such as these, CX may have been better with some narrowbodies, if they had a crystal ball.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 4):
EK doesn't have any NBs, the only airline in the region not to.

Depends on what you define as 'region'. If you mean the Middle East, then, yes. However, as you quote HKG, you maybe mean Asia. Then, well, CX, would make your argument invalid.

Regards

B-2319

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: LHRXXXLHR
Posted 2013-03-25 06:21:09 and read 14062 times.

A quick look at tomorrow shows that CX will operate 15 flights between HKG and TPE (not including the KA flights, of which there are 3). It's a mix of aircraft so for argument sake let's say those flights average 320 seats. Those 4800 seats would require 24 flights at 200 seats per aircraft. We also have to assume that CX isn't operating these flights with the intent of losing money. Someone (smarter than all of us and with real data in hand) sees a reason for doing exactly what they are doing.

NB: Some of those flight continue on to other destinations (NRT, ICN, FUK, NGO) further complicating the analysis.

[Edited 2013-03-25 06:58:58]

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: sierra3tango
Posted 2013-03-25 06:31:50 and read 13876 times.

Quoting b2319 (Reply 11):
Depends on what you define as 'region'. If you mean the Middle East, then, yes. However, as you quote HKG, you maybe mean Asia. Then, well, CX, would make your argument invalid.

Only one post by me with absolutely no mention of HKG or CX. By region I meant the Middle East, if I had meant the asian continent then I would have included SQ in Singapore as well

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: jumpjets
Posted 2013-03-25 06:40:02 and read 13710 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 10):
BA have a fleet of 21 763ERs. Of these seven are configured for short-haul operations.

What is [slightly  ] interesting is that although they are more densely configured for European/domestic ops they can still do a full longish haul routes.

I seem to recall it was reported on the 'BA Source' that during the Haj season BA substituted the usual long haul configured 767s for the short haul ones on some routes to Saudi to increase short term capacity.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: YYCSpotter
Posted 2013-03-25 06:48:56 and read 13583 times.

Here in Canada, WS uses 737s to fly the same routes that AC flies a DHC-8A on, ex. YYC-YEG, YVR-YLW etc. Also consider AC's Rapidair where they use a mix of their regional, short haul and long haul aircraft, depenging on the time of day

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-03-25 07:13:38 and read 13223 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 10):
They are scheduled to operate various routes that include LHR-AMS (231 miles), LHR-EDI (331 miles) and LHR-GLA (345 miles).

I believe that the only routes on the BA LHR network that are shorter than the longest of these three are to MAN (151 miles), CDG (216 miles), BRU (218 miles), ORY (226 miles) and LUX (320 miles).

And.........don't forget BA's latest addition to its shorthaul network LHR-RTM, a distance of just 185 miles.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: CX Flyboy
Posted 2013-03-25 07:59:16 and read 12476 times.

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 3):
Also, for carriers like CX, on the TPE-HKG route, they're not flying wide-bodies for the passengers, but for the enormous quantity of cargo that is moved between the two airports.

While the aircraft may often been less than full upstairs, they're pretty much always packed to the gills downstairs.

Actually we do not often fly full of cargo on the passenger planes between HKG-TPE and vv. There are so many flights plus our 747Fs that we only carry a little cargo on the passenger flights. Not all flights make money but overall the flights do well.

Quoting b2319 (Reply 11):
have seen some crazy offers on CX/KA in the last year, such as CNY 1560 all-inclusive for PVG to BKK, which I took myself. None of these discounted flights were using KA's narrowbodies. I would therefore argue that in times such as these, CX may have been better with some narrowbodies, if they had a crystal ball.

Every airline has a different idea on widebodies vs narrowbodies. CX does carry a lot of cargo in the belly of passenger aircraft and with an ever growing fleet of 777s that can carry a lot of cargo, CX's cargo capability increases. This is an advantage over say an A321. Our passenger load factors are such that we are filling our widebodies. We get 80%+ loads on most of our flights. Loads that narrowbodies cannot take. Besides, we do have a narrowbody fleet in Dragonair. They are used for the 'thin' routes that cannot regularly support a widebody. So your arguement that 'in times like these'...well it isn't really a shortage of passengers that is an issue, it is the yields so for CX so having smaller planes only brings down the revenue. Better to have a widebody filled up!

There will always be the odd flights in CX's network which on that day has a low load which would have been better supported by a narrowbody however as other's have alluded to, the cost of having that widebody sitting on the ground instead of flying has to be taken into account. There are many times of year where every aircraft in our fleet is needed and almost full. This is true for most airlines, so you can either have planes big enough to handle all of the demand when demand is high in the year, but have planes partly empty at quiet times, or have smaller planes which are full almost all the year but that are incapable of taking advantage of peaks of demand. Different airlines have different strategies due to different affecting factors and different managers making decisions. It is hard to say which is right and which is wrong without knowing a lot of figures but no-one can really say that CX is run badly and make bad decisions often.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: amciver
Posted 2013-03-25 10:06:04 and read 10692 times.

I have flown on a Thai 747 from Bangkok to Phuket . They declassified 1st Class in to Business so I paid £123 for a one way Business Class ticket and sat in 1st!

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: Dufo
Posted 2013-03-25 10:10:21 and read 10626 times.

I was on a Frankfurt - Munich flight before continuing to Mauritius on an Air Mauritius A340-300 back in 2007. But I don't think one could book that sector as a separate flight.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: falstaff
Posted 2013-03-25 13:06:19 and read 8166 times.

Quoting Dufo (Reply 19):
A340-300 back in 2007. But I don't think one could book that sector as a separate flight.

Back in 1991 I flew on a TW L1011 ORD-STL. The flight was just about fuill, if I remember correctly. I think the flight originated at LHR, but the ORD-STL segment was bookable.

[Edited 2013-03-25 13:07:35]

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: Channex101
Posted 2013-03-25 16:46:35 and read 5447 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 20):
Back in 1991 I flew on a TW L1011 ORD-STL. The flight was just about fuill, if I remember correctly. I think the flight originated at LHR, but the ORD-STL segment was bookable.

All depends on if you have 5th freedom right, a US carrier can operate LHR-ORD-STL and sell seats on all legs, but if I remember rightly when BA operated LHR-DTW-IAH on the 767 for a while you could only buy seats LHR-DTW or LHR-IAH and not on the internal DTW-IAH leg.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: windowflyer
Posted 2013-03-25 16:49:05 and read 5426 times.

Flew a Thai A340-600 BKK - SIN last summer. (~2 hrs)
No clue why they fly such large aircraft on such short routes, but glad they do as it was my first 600.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: Stratacruiser
Posted 2013-03-25 18:36:41 and read 4401 times.

In the past eighteen months or so I've been on a BR 747-400 combi, 777, and A330 on HKG-TPE flights. I'm never sure why, but each time I've been reseated in the very comfortable premium economy sections of planes even when traveling on dscounted tickets. Also had a similar experience on TK last October flying IST-ATY-IST on A330s.

Dave

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: davidho1985
Posted 2013-03-25 20:06:33 and read 4070 times.

Quoting b2319 (Reply 11):
I have contrary information via this link; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21766398 and I quote: "Mr Pratt added that high fuel costs had hurt Cathay's profitability, especially on long-haul routes, which it said were dominated by "older, less fuel-efficient, Boeing 747-400 and Airbus A340-300 aircraft". "
CX still generated profits in 2012 even the economy is so bad and the fuel cost is so high.

Actually CX stated that at the current fuel price, even a fully loaded 744 long haul flight is not profitable, so they have intentionally assign their 744 to regional flights to free up 77W, which is much more fuel efficient for the long haul flights.

CX still need 744 for the capacity, so they can't be removed from the fleet now. Without NB in the fleet, those 744 can be used in the regional flights, or not, either 744s or the NBs will be sitting on the ground without generating profits for CX, which will cost CX a lot.

In addition, CX is well-known for using WB on regional flights (in order to fully utilize their WB fleet and save all the costs related to have a dedicated regional fleet of NB), and they are one of the most profitable airlines in the world for a long time, no doubt this stategy works, at lease for CX.

[Edited 2013-03-25 20:08:02]

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: tonymctigue
Posted 2013-03-25 21:28:40 and read 4084 times.

One of the more puzzling regional routes that saw frequent widebody services was SNN-DUB but that was because of an idiotic government reasons that insisted any airlines who operated transtlantic from Ireland had to offer equal capacity fro both airports. Rather than sending two aircraft, it was easier and cheaper to use a single aircraft and stopover at SNN. Airlines and aircraft included EI (A330, B747 and both the B767 and MD11 for brief periods), DL (L1011, B767 I think??), AC (B767) and there was probably a few DC 10 operators in there too.

EI used to selll SNN-DUB tickets for anyone who wanted them (mostly passengers seeking to connect to other EI services at DUB) but I am pretty sure none of the other carriers were allowed to do so. EI finally stopped selling SNN-DUB tickets about three years ago when they stopped flying transatlantic from SNN during the winter and dropped the summer daily frequences to SNN-BOS 4x weekly and SNN-JFK 3x weekly and based a single A330 at SNN to operate these services. This meant the aircraft didn't have to be dispatched from DUB and there was enough demand to profitably operate this level of capacity without needing DUB originating pasengers to fill some of the capacity. It used to be handy for us enthusiasts in Ireland though because it was a cheap option of testing out new EI long haul aircraft without having to pay for a transatlantic air fare.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: carpethead
Posted 2013-03-26 05:24:39 and read 3766 times.

Quoting Stratacruiser (Reply 23):
BR 747-400 combi, 777, and A330 on HKG-TPE flights. I'm never sure why

BR didn't have a single narrow-body flight until the arrival of the A321 a few months ago.
If you look at other airlines, widebodies dominate on the HKG-TPE route. CX flies nothing but widebodies. KA its primarily A330s. CI is anything from the tiny A343 to 744s.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: VV701
Posted 2013-03-26 05:42:29 and read 3779 times.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 14):
What is [slightly ] interesting is that although they are more densely configured for European/domestic ops they can still do a full longish haul routes.

I seem to recall it was reported on the 'BA Source' that during the Haj season BA substituted the usual long haul configured 767s for the short haul ones on some routes to Saudi to increase short term capacity.

Yes.

There were four BA flights at the time of the last Hadj back last autumn where the airline scheduled a 252 seat, short-haul configured 763 for the usual 192 seat long-haul aircraft to increase the number of pilgrims they could carry. The two outward bound "pilgrimage" flights operated LHR-(ATH)-JED-LHR. The two (later) inbound rotations operated LHR-JED-(ATH)-LHR. The technical stop at ATH was for refuelling. This indicates that the 763ER did not quite have the legs to operate the 2,951 miles between LHR and JED with 252 passengers, their luggage and what I assume was a normal freight load.

However back on 11 March 2011 for the same rotation (BA133/32) BA made a late substitution of a short-haul configured 763, G-BNWB, for the long-haul version that was scheduled to operate to JED because of a shortage of in-service long-haul aircraft. On that occasion the aircraft operated LHR-JED-LHR presumably because BA had sold a maximum of 192 seats plus a normal freight load.

It is not that a rare occurrence for a short-haul BA 763 to operate a long-haul service. However the substitution is usually made on one of the two shortest BA 763ER long-haul routes, either LHR-DME or LHR-TLV..

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: JHCRJ700
Posted 2013-03-26 05:53:01 and read 3750 times.

I flew the 787 EWR-IAH ( I know I know it was just a familiarization flight), but I flew a 762 back and at the time (back in November) there was two other flights a day on 764s between IAH-EWR.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: b2319
Posted 2013-03-26 06:06:00 and read 3715 times.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 13):
Only one post by me with absolutely no mention of HKG or CX. By region I meant the Middle East, if I had meant the asian continent then I would have included SQ in Singapore as well

My mistake entirely; you quoted HKG from someone else.   

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 17):
CX Flyboy: It is great to get some insider information which must be bordering on the proprietary/confidential side. Many thanks for this excellent post!

Regards

B-2319

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: jumpjets
Posted 2013-03-26 10:29:09 and read 3550 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 27):
The two outward bound "pilgrimage" flights operated LHR-(ATH)-JED-LHR

Ah, I hadnt realsied they had to stop in Athesn for a top up.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: davidho1985
Posted 2013-03-27 00:30:24 and read 3133 times.

Quoting carpethead (Reply 26):
BR didn't have a single narrow-body flight until the arrival of the A321 a few months ago.
If you look at other airlines, widebodies dominate on the HKG-TPE route. CX flies nothing but widebodies. KA its primarily A330s. CI is anything from the tiny A343 to 744s.

BR has wet-lease some MD90 from Uni Air, their subsidiaries for regional routes

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: BreninTW
Posted 2013-03-27 00:39:21 and read 3116 times.

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 31):

BR has wet-lease some MD90 from Uni Air, their subsidiaries for regional routes

Additionally, BR also leased some A32x from GE for a while -- the aircraft were painted in full BR colors.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: BSRadar
Posted 2013-03-27 03:31:36 and read 2900 times.

South African has used their long-haulers on the short domestic JNB - CPT for years now. The predominant aircraft on the route is the B737-800, but a quick look for next week shows the A332/343/346 all scheduled to put in an appearance on the route. I'm pretty sure the topic has been discussed before, but South African's long range route network has the aircraft standing around for lengthy periods. Utilisation on these shorter routes may be a necessity to help keep crew flight hours up. I know South African management has been discussed before on here, so whether these long haulers appearing on the short haul network is prudent or expedient, I don't know. Suffice to say that back in 2006, the Upper Deck of a B747-400 was a wonderful place from which to view the Karoo Desert and then Table Mountain on approach to CPT (total occupancy of flight around 50"%), and then the return flight in the rear of a full A342 as it tried to dodge the thunderheads of the High Veldt was just a white knuckle contrast!

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: connies4ever
Posted 2013-03-27 06:16:03 and read 2725 times.

Quoting YYCSpotter (Reply 15):
Here in Canada, WS uses 737s to fly the same routes that AC flies a DHC-8A on, ex. YYC-YEG, YVR-YLW etc. Also consider AC's Rapidair where they use a mix of their regional, short haul and long haul aircraft, depenging on the time of day

Indeed. I've been on 2 763ERs operating YOW-YYZ for Rapidair, latish asfternoon. You can also see them YUL-YYZ at times. AC have also operated A320s YVR-YYJ from time to time (38 miles).

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: VV701
Posted 2013-03-27 06:21:07 and read 2706 times.

I suspect that the use of long-haul wide bodies when there is a shortage of short-haul single aisle aircraft is far from uncommon.

For example BA has two flights from LGW to AGP that are scheduled 75 minutes apart and are usually both operated by 734s. If they experience a shortage of 734 capacity they sometimes combine these two flights and operate them with a 772.

They cancelled the earlier (BA2714) flight and operated a 772 on the later (BA2716) LGW-AGP flight on the following dates:

14 Jul. 2011 (BA2716 operated by G-VIIP)
10 Sep. 2011 (G-VIIF)
7 Oct. 2011 (G-VIIO)
27 Jun. 2012 (G-VIIR)
14 Sep. 2012 (G-VIIO)
15 Sep. 2012 (G-YMMF)

The first of the above flights operated by 'IP was preceded by a LGW-MAN rotation (BA2096/97) operated by the same 772.

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: davidho1985
Posted 2013-03-27 08:31:57 and read 2587 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 35):
I suspect that the use of long-haul wide bodies when there is a shortage of short-haul single aisle aircraft is far from uncommon.

I think the focus of the discussion is the use of long haul WB on regional flights intentionally, not the equipment change due to the irregularity of the operation

Topic: RE: Long Range Aircraft Used On Regional Route
Username: sierra3tango
Posted 2013-03-27 09:24:20 and read 2523 times.

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 36):
I think the focus of the discussion is the use of long haul WB on regional flights intentionally, not the equipment change due to the irregularity of the operation

With the exception of BA's shorthaul 767s and the use of shorthaul WB in Japan (& maybe China - don't know the market) there doesn't seem to much any more

Widebody shorthaul was a regular event in Europe in the 70s / 80s, it was the original purpose of the A300. Can't remember going LHR/ORY on anything but a WB

The 783 is no more (which the Japanese wanted) and LHR is slotted out and I suspect China & India will sooner or later start to hit airport capacity limits.

Can anyone see a SH WB coming to market, if so in what form?


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