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Topic: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-03-29 07:50:49 and read 13879 times.

"The demonstration comes as Transport Workers Union Local 555 and the carrier are in the midst of contract talks. The union is protesting Southwest proposals to outsource some jobs, among other complaints. The union says the changes “would negatively impact customer service and impose unnecessary concessions” on its members."

"The TWU members were also picketing at Southwest-served airports in Buffalo, N.Y., Baltimore, Chicago, Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood and Tampa, Fla., Houston, Kansas City, Mo., Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Nashville, Oakland, Phoenix, Portland, Ore., and Seattle.
"

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...-picket-at-dallas-love-field.html/

This sign says it all:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/files/2013/03/NB_28LOVEPROTEST01CP_30371206-1024x768.jpg

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-03-29 07:56:03 and read 13860 times.

The days of smooth sailing at WN are over. Their costs are too high and their competitors are all thru BK with lower costs. More and more it looks like WN simply wanted to get rid of FL not to gain access to ATL but to get rid of a low fare competitor.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: slider
Posted 2013-03-29 07:58:01 and read 13857 times.

No, bags fly free because your company couldn't charge for them at some point and are now way past the point of no return on backtracking on it.

Too bad too, because that ancillary revenue might be useful in contract negotiations.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: ItalianFlyer
Posted 2013-03-29 08:17:15 and read 13736 times.

Interesting how what was once unimaginable becomes reality. I think we all agree that the 'LC' part of LCC is no longer applicable. They grew into every medium size city in the USA ten years ago and have to expand their system base to include large traditional markets (LGA,EWR,BOS) and small ones like BKG,ICT and GSP. There is no way they can staff > 10 daily stations with internal staff and make money. However, I see where TWU is coming from with their concerns...today it is BKG....tomorrow is could be BWI.

Welcome to the Big Boys WN....the "labor peace at any price" bill is coming due.

[Edited 2013-03-29 08:25:02]

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: slider
Posted 2013-03-29 08:27:02 and read 13655 times.

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 3):
Welcome to the Big Boys WN.

I think you, me, and scores of others here on this site all recognize that WN is hardly this LCC upstart anymore but a true mature legacy carrier with the same legacy problems. I just wish the media would stop with the teflon darling treatment--it's pathetic, really.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-03-29 08:32:19 and read 13616 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 1):
The days of smooth sailing at WN are over. Their costs are too high and their competitors are all thru BK with lower costs. More and more it looks like WN simply wanted to get rid of FL not to gain access to ATL but to get rid of a low fare competitor.

Isn't that what most acquisitions are about?

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
No, bags fly free because your company couldn't charge for them at some point and are now way past the point of no return on backtracking on it.

Too bad too, because that ancillary revenue might be useful in contract negotiations.

You would be shocked how many employees would support bag fees. It would definitely help them during contract negotiations with the extra revenue. Of course at some point the extra revenue doesn't show up. Right now other airlines immediately match/follow WN's fare adjustments. UA tried to go along last year, WN didn't follow, and all backed out. WN still has significant pricing influence in this country and until that goes away, so does the requirements to increase fees.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-03-29 08:34:04 and read 13603 times.

So basically you're saying that WN is being screwed because other airlines mismanaged themselves into ch11 and could shed all their overhead.
This is why I hate Ch11...if you're bankrupt, then go away and make room for people who can do it right!

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-03-29 09:05:29 and read 13403 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):
So basically you're saying that WN is being screwed because other airlines mismanaged themselves into ch11 and could shed all their overhead.

True, but all those carriers existed long before deregulation, and grew their labor costs and rules to support a regulation environment. When the revenue side pancaked one day to the next, there was not much choice.

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
Too bad too, because that ancillary revenue might be useful in contract negotiations.

On the other hand they'd probably need a lot fewer bag handlers if they instituted bag fees. Could cut both ways...

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Triple7Lr
Posted 2013-03-29 09:08:17 and read 13384 times.

Well hopefully they can work things out before it gets out of hand. WN is officially a legacy carrier. It's only a matter of time before they have bag fees, it's a huge revenue source that they're missing out on. I think they're afraid they'll lose a lot of customers. Who would you choose if all prices were equal WN, DL, UA, B6, or the new AA? The reality is without a price advantage or a perceived price advantage WN loses.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: luvfa
Posted 2013-03-29 09:10:58 and read 13368 times.

555 represents our Ramp, Provisioning and Ground Ops. Some bones of contentions in this contract negotiations are:

Outsourcing, they can outsource any stations opened post 2009 with less than, (I believe) 8 flights. The comnpany is trying to be able to outsource any station, 555 is trying to prevent that!

Ramp is trying to get additional help loading the 800. As as of now, management want s the same number of loaders on all AC whether a 700 or an 800, with the same turn times!

My Union, 556, supports 555 in their pursuit of a fair contract!

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: DCA-ROCguy
Posted 2013-03-29 09:12:48 and read 13346 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):
So basically you're saying that WN is being screwed because other airlines mismanaged themselves into ch11 and could shed all their overhead.
This is why I hate Ch11...if you're bankrupt, then go away and make room for people who can do it right!

Presumably because politicians did not want the disruption of large shuttered airlines. However, Eastern, Braniff, and Pan Am's shutdowns showed that the country can weather a shutdown and adjust just fine.

It's well-known that WN will need to deal with its costs sooner or later. I think within the next two to three years. Their major profit-strategy raison d'etre is being *lower-cost* than legacy competitors. And that means reducing the one biggest cost item over which they have control, and it's no longer oil. Either they get back to lower costs, or their specific major distinguishing factor goes away.

It was also much-discussed here that WN's business passengers had wanted Atlanta. The airline no doubt wanted the profits of serving major business centers from ATL. (Getting rid of a much smaller lower-cost competitor was probably gravy.) Which, to no one's great surprise, they are doing. I just wonder how completely BWI and MDW are going to be able to replace ATL's connecting-hub traffic flows. As long as the medium-size FL stations that are losing ATL get BWI and MDW, they should be fine for Florida, but the directional matches for other station-pairs may not all be ideal.

Jim

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-03-29 10:57:17 and read 13010 times.

What I would tell the WN employees is that as long as failure is rewarded in this country (Chap. 11), successful businesses will be at a disadvantage at some point. That point is now. Why management would "compromise our tradition" is because it may keep WN profitable. It's ugly. It's sad to see success have to pay for failure, but it is what it is. Agree on a deal that both sides have to concede on.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: beechtobus
Posted 2013-03-29 11:07:41 and read 12960 times.

Southwest definitely painted themselves into a corner with their widespread "Bags Fly Free" marketing campaign. Almost reminds me of CO's commercials in the mid 2000's touting free meals at meal times, pillows, and blankets after the rest of the legacies had stopped providing these extras as part of the service. This lasted, what, a year if that. Its hard to believe that Southwest didn't take a page out of this book of what not to do when marketing, especially while their revenue stream was already deteriorating with no longer hugely advantageous fuel hedges, labor costs were way out of line from their peers, and increased costs with seeking out service to expensive, delay prone airports that they once avoided.

Now they have the hard choice of deciding between asking their labor groups for concessions creating decreased morale and increased labor strife or alienating a very loyal passenger base with baggage fees that they were once very publicly against.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):

"So basically you're saying that WN is being screwed because other airlines mismanaged themselves into ch11 and could shed all their overhead.
This is why I hate Ch11...if you're bankrupt, then go away and make room for people who can do it right!"

We actually agree on something! Do keep in mind though that the concessions that were imposed on these other legacies labor groups and relief from creditors through Ch 11 that gave the protected airline an advantage is only part of the revenue stream equation. Southwest does have a huge amount of ancillary revenue opportunities that they haven't tapped that almost all other airlines have tapped and isn't necessarily related to bk protection. They now have the hard task of if and how they will approach tapping this revenue stream.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: MIflyer12
Posted 2013-03-29 11:21:54 and read 12815 times.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 10):
However, Eastern, Braniff, and Pan Am's shutdowns showed that the country can weather a shutdown and adjust just fine.


The degree of concentration in the U.S. domestic airline industry today is a lot higher than in the time of the failures of Pan Am and Braniff.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
True, but all those carriers existed long before deregulation, and grew their labor costs and rules to support a regulation environment. When the revenue side pancaked one day to the next, there was not much choice.

I'm confused by the 'one day to the next' reference. AA had >30 years from the time of deregulation to manage labor costs and productivity; DL, NW, and UA, all > 25 years before their filings for Ch 11. It's not as if adjustment needed to be quick.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: lucky777
Posted 2013-03-29 11:22:39 and read 12797 times.

Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Ramp is trying to get additional help loading the 800. As as of now, management want s the same number of loaders on all AC whether a 700 or an 800, with the same turn times!

And how many men are alloted to work '700's?

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-03-29 11:27:52 and read 12733 times.

I do not think the bags fly free has any bearing, the other airlines who are charging for bags are not using that revenue to pay employees, if that were the case / intention the conditions implemented and benefits lost in Chpt.11 would not be as harsh. If WN were to start charging for bags and use those funds to pay staff, their situation would be no different than it is now, their labour cost would still be higher than their competitiors and one of the items that differentiate them from their competitors would be lost. At present WN has higher productivity from its staff than their competitors, this is what is allowing them to continue to be profitable in the face of higher labour cost and airlines abusing the Chpt.11 process.

The jury of public opinion is still out on whether they are benefitting substantially from their bags fly free campaign.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: luvfa
Posted 2013-03-29 11:31:22 and read 12682 times.

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 14):
And how many men are alloted to work '700's?

I want to say 2, but don't quote me, as I don't work the ramp.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Asteriskceo
Posted 2013-03-29 11:40:20 and read 12555 times.

I'd say most of WN's customers aren't even aware that bags fly free.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-03-29 11:47:14 and read 12510 times.

Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Ramp is trying to get additional help loading the 800. As as of now, management want s the same number of loaders on all AC whether a 700 or an 800, with the same turn times!

Serious? You can't dump a larger plane in the mix and expect it to flow like it's not any different. That's what happens when upper management has lost touch with the realities of the task at hand. Though I don't blame them for trying to keep their costs inline ( even though that ships left port )

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-03-29 12:02:29 and read 12339 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 5):
WN still has significant pricing influence in this country and until that goes away, so does the requirements to increase fees

  
They control the pricing in the markets that they fly to, and they are usually not the cheapest option either. That's why they can afford "bags fly free". It's priced into the air fare and everyone is paying for it, even those who don't carry a bag.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
True, but all those carriers existed long before deregulation, and grew their labor costs and rules to support a regulation environment. When the revenue side pancaked one day to the next, there was not much choice.

WN also existed before deregulation and they didn't need BK to remain competitive after deregulation. Put me in with those who dislike Ch. 11.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-03-29 12:21:13 and read 12127 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 19):
WN also existed before deregulation and they didn't need BK to remain competitive after deregulation. Put me in with those who dislike Ch. 11.

They were only an intrastate carrier until after deregulation, so it never applied to them in any case until they started flying to MSY, after deregulation.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 13):
I'm confused by the 'one day to the next' reference. AA had >30 years from the time of deregulation to manage labor costs and productivity; DL, NW, and UA, all > 25 years before their filings for Ch 11. It's not as if adjustment needed to be quick.

The revenue disappeared from one day to the next. You've seen how hard it is to cut costs with the same speed; all those carriers have been trying for years to reign in costs, and vendors and labor have no short/medium interest in participating in those cuts. Now you can watch live as WN does the same thing--they need cost cuts yesterday, and it's going to be a brutal long time just to keep them them steady.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2013-03-29 12:29:07 and read 12027 times.

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 14):
And how many men are alloted to work '700's?

At the two stations I've work at, 2 agents are staffed at a gate. Neighboring gates are supposed to assist each other making up to 4 agents. However with the way flights are scheduled now, flights file in in banks so it's common to see all gates busy working their own flights leaving no one to assist. Furthermore, not every gate is staffed daily yet flights will still be scheduled at them running the staff even more thin as agents need to be taken from other positions to work those flights.

Quoting par13del (Reply 15):
At present WN has higher productivity from its staff than their competitors

Ha, the union has been told otherwise.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-03-29 12:36:27 and read 11952 times.

I wish there was a public list of grievances. What I've read is so general, it doesn't illustrate if there is a real issue or not.

What does "some jobs" mean with regard to outsourcing? A hundred? A thousand?

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 1):
The days of smooth sailing at WN are over. Their costs are too high

It will be a bit rough, but they'll manage. But WN's costs aren't bad. I had to agree with the 'bags will have fees' crowd, but WN must work on revenue:

Their 2Q2012 CASM (had link):
http://southwest.investorroom.com/20...nes-Reports-Second-Quarter-Results

12.51 cents (including fuel), 7.76 cents without fuel.

For the year, with longer stage lengths, B6 has a 11.65 total CASM and 7.17 without fuel. I'd say about a wash...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/jet...nces-2012-annual-profit-2013-01-29

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
No, bags fly free because your company couldn't charge for them at some point and are now way past the point of no return on backtracking on it.

I rarely fly on airlines that don't have free bags. With small kids, the fees quickly make B6 and WN a bargain.

WN could have bag fees... But they have grabbed most of the customers who want to avoid them.

Judging from the 2010 data, WN's costs are not out of line:
http://www.oliverwyman.com/media/OW_...2011_Airline_Economic_Analysis.pdf

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 3):
There is no way they can staff > 10 daily stations with internal staff and make money. However, I see where TWU is coming from with their concerns...today it is BKG....tomorrow is could be BWI.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: UALWN
Posted 2013-03-29 12:40:41 and read 11909 times.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 13):
I'm confused by the 'one day to the next' reference. AA had >30 years from the time of deregulation to manage labor costs and productivity; DL, NW, and UA, all > 25 years before their filings for Ch 11. It's not as if adjustment needed to be quick.

Not only that, but some of them (CO, US) needed not one but two trips to Ch. 11 to, allegedly, solve those issues stemming from the '70s...

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-03-29 12:41:40 and read 11909 times.

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 17):
I'd say most of WN's customers aren't even aware that bags fly free.

You would be surprised how many do.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 19):
They control the pricing in the markets that they fly to, and they are usually not the cheapest option either. That's why they can afford "bags fly free". It's priced into the air fare and everyone is paying for it, even those who don't carry a bag.

I'm glad someone else finally gets it.   The comments above continue to show how naive a lot of people are when it comes to air fare pricing in this country. Just look back at the history of fare hikes over the last couple of years. Those initiated by WN stuck. Those initiated by others, that WN refused to match, got reversed in under two weeks. If WN needs/wants the additional revenue, they'll just raise fares another $10 per segment and everyone will fall in line and do the same.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 19):
WN also existed before deregulation and they didn't need BK to remain competitive after deregulation. Put me in with those who dislike Ch. 11.

Chapter 11 has its tools, but at some point you need to let it go. Double dipping in BK or staying in for a very long time is just counter competitive. Nearly every major airline during the post-dereg era of aviation has failed. The exceptions? Southwest, Alaska, and JetBlue. Everyone else has gone through bankruptcy at one time or another...sometimes multiple times.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: WesternDC6B
Posted 2013-03-29 13:28:24 and read 11966 times.

Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Who would you choose if all prices were equal WN, DL, UA, B6, or the new AA? The reality is without a price advantage or a perceived price advantage WN loses.

Not in my book. WN has full-sized airplanes, courteous cabin crew, decent to excellent ground agents. For the same price, why would I want to fly on Delta/Pinacle* Airlines' old, cramped, filthy planes or put up with UA's rude employees? I have not flown AA enough to make a judgement and B6 doesn't come here (BHM).

* We call them Pinochle Airlines at the office because it is always a gamble if they will be on time, or delayed.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: wwtraveler99
Posted 2013-03-29 13:38:37 and read 11915 times.

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
Too bad too, because that ancillary revenue might be useful in contract negotiations.
Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Outsourcing, they can outsource any stations opened post 2009 with less than, (I believe) 8 flights.

Actually its fewer than 12 flights

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 12):
Southwest definitely painted themselves into a corner with their widespread "Bags Fly Free" marketing campaign.

What corner? See below concerning profits.

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 12):
labor costs were way out of line from their peers,

How is that the case? According to Wall Street Southwest will make $720,000,000 this year, A RECORD profit. Next year the are projected at $874,000,000. Even with the so called "high" labor costs the still are on pace to make record profits 2 years in a row.Here is current airline unit labor cost adjusted for stage legnth. Shown in CASM.

UA - 6.6
AA - 6.0
DL - 5.0
AS - 4.3
US - 4.1
WN - 3.8 .. record profits to come
B6 - 3.3 ... this is the only airline i would compare to WN
F9 - 2.8
VX - 2.3 and losing money
NK - 2.1 and they charge for everything under the sun

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Now you can watch live as WN does the same thing--they need cost cuts yesterday, and it's going to be a brutal long time just to keep them them steady.

What costs do they need to cut. $720,000,000 isnt enough profit? Southwest should not do what other carriers have done to there employees. That is to make money off the backs of the hard working employees on the ground and in the air.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
What does "some jobs" mean with regard to outsourcing? A hundred? A thousand?

Some jobs mean about 20% of the work to be contracted out to a 3rd party.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
12.51 cents (including fuel), 7.76 cents without fuel.

For the year, with longer stage lengths, B6 has a 11.65 total CASM and 7.17 without fuel. I'd say about a wash...

I agree its a wash...almost. Again I think B6 is the only carrier you can compare to WN.


WW

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: mcdu
Posted 2013-03-29 14:04:11 and read 11750 times.

Do you know the carriers that received ATSB money? Here is hint, it wasn't the two carriers that lost aircraft on 9-11.
In fact of these carriers receiving loans all the ATSB money was repaid. Isn't that what it was intended to do? The ATSB did not give everyone that asked money, as you can also see below. There were some severe politics involved in the process but it was money that was repaid.

Finally of all the carriers that it probably kept from disappearing US and AmWest are the only two that survived to prosper. All the others have had difficulty or are out of business. So the money was repaid and the carriers that couldn't survive died.

Here is an interesting tidbit ATA died because of the WN shell game that the kind folks from LUV perpetuated. Any bad things that happen at WN have been earned over the years with shady dealings.

From Wiki:

Between 2001 and 2003, the ATSB approved applications for loan guarantees from seven carriers: America West Airlines, US Airways, American Trans Air, Aloha Airlines, Frontier Airlines, Evergreen International Airlines, and World Airways. These carriers accepted loan guarantees worth $1.179 billion.
The ATSB denied applications from nine carriers: Ozark Airlines dba Great Plains Airlines, MEDjet International, Corporate Airlines, Gemini Air Cargo, Frontier Flying Service, Spirit Airlines, National Airlines, and both initial and revised applications from United Airlines and Vanguard Airlines.
[edit]

[Edited 2013-03-30 03:42:12 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-03-29 14:08:57 and read 11701 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 5):
Isn't that what most acquisitions are about?

FL wasnt not excess capacity unlike DL/NW. FL was a genuine LCC, NW wasnt. Getting rid of FL capacity had FL not been a LCC isnt enough to raise fares across the industry. Also AA/US isnt about reducing capacity in the way that DL/NW was or even UA/CO

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):
So basically you're saying that WN is being screwed because other airlines mismanaged themselves into ch11 and could shed all their overhead.

Same happened to AA until they BK

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 17):
I'd say most of WN's customers aren't even aware that bags fly free.

I dont think that is true. Youd have to be blind to not know

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-03-29 14:49:58 and read 11282 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
I rarely fly on airlines that don't have free bags. With small kids, the fees quickly make B6 and WN a bargain.

Dude, 'The Delta Skymiles Card from American Express' would give you free bags for you and up to 8 others. You, your kids, your friends, your friend's kids.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: luvfa
Posted 2013-03-29 15:01:14 and read 11149 times.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 30):
Here is an interesting tidbit ATA died because of the WN shell game that the kind folks from LUV perpetuated. Any bad things that happen at WN have been earned over the years with shady dealings.

That wasn't what killed ATA, it was the loss of their military charter(s).

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: mcdu
Posted 2013-03-29 15:43:36 and read 10785 times.

Quoting luvfa (Reply 34):
That wasn't what killed ATA, it was the loss of their military charter(s).

After LUV pillaged ATA there wasn't anything left but the charters. Had the wonderful folks from WN not have done their evil deed to ATA the military loss wouldn't have caused the collapse. But this is WN we are talking about so they are just the poor little airline that is just trying to make everyone LUV them. Most of the FL people I talk to don't seem to be feeling the LUV either....

WN is only reaping what it has sewn.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-03-29 16:07:26 and read 10603 times.

Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Ramp is trying to get additional help loading the 800. As as of now, management want s the same number of loaders on all AC whether a 700 or an 800, with the same turn times!

Does the 800 in WN fleet have the Tel Air cargo loading system? I ask because here at UA the 737-800 do not have that system the 737-900 have the system. However in the 800 you need at least 2 people in each pit in order to load it because do to the length of the aircraft one person can't load a pit by themselves so I can understand WN ramp employees concerns.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 11):
What I would tell the WN employees is that as long as failure is rewarded in this country (Chap. 11), successful businesses will be at a disadvantage at some point. That point is now. Why management would "compromise our tradition" is because it may keep WN profitable. It's ugly. It's sad to see success have to pay for failure, but it is what it is. Agree on a deal that both sides have to concede on.

I don't agree with this statement. The other legacies are not responsible for where WN is at today WN management is. While the other legacies were in bankruptcy forcing huge pay cuts and reducing employee benefits as well as outsourcing work WN employees were given pay raises and better benefits that they rightfully deserved. While other airlines were paying close to full price for 50-70% of their jet fuel needs WN had unbelievable fuel hedges which for the most part protected a large portion of their operation against the volatility in the oil market. WN has been profitable for the past 40 years and their policies and hedges protected them especially in the last decade (2000-2010) in fact in the last decade while the big legacies were cutting tons of flights WN was adding flights all over the U.S..

The reality that WN operated in during the past decade and to be specific (2006-2010) was not the reality that the legacies operated in. How many years ago did jet fuel cost become the number one cost at the legacies surpassing employee wages? When did fuel cost become WN number one cost? I can almost guarantee you at WN their fuel cost did not exceed their employee cost until years after the legacies were already dealing with it. Once the price of oil sky rocketed WN had an advantage but everyone knew that advantage would not last because never again would a hedge fund company allow an airline to hedge fuel at the prices WN negotiated.

My point is WN has benefited from the mismanagement, missteps and miss opportunities the the legacies experienced. From especially 2006-2011 WN took complete advantage of every misstep the legacies made and no one was complaining because huge profits continued to roll in and they constantly met or exceeded Wall Street analyst expectation. So why now are the legacies at fault? With the exception of American Airlines a lot of employees at the other legacies are finally seeing their wages increase, they have better benefits, they are getting profit sharing checks, SOME of the work that was outsourced during the last decade is finally coming back and being performed in house.

The turbulence that WN management and employees are experience today is not the fault of the legacies it is the reality of the market that WN now operates in a reality where almost every decision is made is somehow influenced by the price of oil.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-03-29 17:20:08 and read 9935 times.

Great that DL employees get to enjoy profit sharing, just like WN employees have for nearly every year since 1973 (except for a couple years here and there).

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 31):
FL wasnt not excess capacity unlike DL/NW. FL was a genuine LCC, NW wasnt. Getting rid of FL capacity had FL not been a LCC isnt enough to raise fares across the industry. Also AA/US isnt about reducing capacity in the way that DL/NW was or even UA/CO

Let me make my thoughts a bit clearer. I see the FL acquisition as a way to clean out competition and prevent excess capacity. FL was pretty well saturated east of the Mississippi. They only had one way to grow in the US and that would have started to impact WN even more. IMO, this was a preemptive move to avoid having to deal with FL expanding a lot in the central and western US.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 33):
Dude, 'The Delta Skymiles Card from American Express' would give you free bags for you and up to 8 others. You, your kids, your friends, your friend's kids.

Dude (is it just me, or is that kinda rude? anyway), not everyone wants to sign up for a credit card. I HATE credit cards. I'm a 100% cash guy (even though I have a credit card for those situations when its required) and respect those that refuse to apply to every single credit card opportunity out there.

[Edited 2013-03-30 03:51:20 by SA7700]

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: SJUSXM
Posted 2013-03-29 17:28:11 and read 9821 times.

Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Ramp is trying to get additional help loading the 800. As as of now, management want s the same number of loaders on all AC whether a 700 or an 800, with the same turn times!

The question is though, how many rampers are working a -700 now? I really don't know the answer, but hypothetically, say it's 6. 6 May be grossly too many for a -700. Hypothetically, if UA/AA/DL can load a -800 with six people, I would think WN would say they should be able to do the same thing. Thus the ramp wouldn't need extra people, they already would have TOO MANY people for a smaller plane, but the union would never say that. Again, I don't know what the situation actually is in terms of how many people work now, but I think this needs perspective before we say that management is just being unrealistic.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2013-03-29 17:38:31 and read 9731 times.

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 41):
The question is though, how many rampers are working a -700 now? I really don't know the answer, but hypothetically, say it's 6. 6 May be grossly too many for a -700. Hypothetically, if UA/AA/DL can load a -800 with six people, I would think WN would say they should be able to do the same thing. Thus the ramp wouldn't need extra people, they already would have TOO MANY people for a smaller plane, but the union would never say that. Again, I don't know what the situation actually is in terms of how many people work now, but I think this needs perspective before we say that management is just being unrealistic.

As I stated above, it's between 2-4 agents working turnarounds on all types.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 21):
At the two stations I've work at, 2 agents are staffed at a gate. Neighboring gates are supposed to assist each other making up to 4 agents. However with the way flights are scheduled now, flights file in in banks so it's common to see all gates busy working their own flights leaving no one to assist. Furthermore, not every gate is staffed daily yet flights will still be scheduled at them running the staff even more thin as agents need to be taken from other positions to work those flights.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: beechtobus
Posted 2013-03-29 18:02:53 and read 9547 times.

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 27):

"What corner? See below concerning profits."

Did I ever mention anything about profits? I was merely saying that they essentially locked themselves out of charging for baggage as a revenue stream with their aggressive bags fly free campaign should they decide that that's best.

"How is that the case? According to Wall Street Southwest will make $720,000,000 this year, A RECORD profit. Next year the are projected at $874,000,000. Even with the so called "high" labor costs the still are on pace to make record profits 2 years in a row.Here is current airline unit labor cost adjusted for stage legnth. Shown in CASM."

What?!?! I'm confused, are these numbers labor cost or CASM? 2 entirely different things. CASM numbers on their own tell us nothing at all about labor costs as labor is a fraction of an airline's overall costs. WN can have sky high labor costs and keep costs low elsewhere bringing down overall CASM. If these are labor cost per available seat mile numbers, id like to see where you got these numbers.

"What costs do they need to cut. $720,000,000 isnt enough profit? Southwest should not do what other carriers have done to there employees. That is to make money off the backs of the hard working employees on the ground and in the air."

OK, great numbers. Why are they pushing for these concessions ( less sick days, outsourcing) then. I sense a bit more to this story.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: NWAdeicer
Posted 2013-03-29 18:23:46 and read 9385 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 33):
Dude, 'The Delta Skymiles Card from American Express' would give you free bags for you and up to 8 others. You, your kids, your friends, your friend's kids.

Dude (is it just me, or is that kinda rude? anyway), not everyone wants to sign up for a credit card. I HATE credit cards. I'm a 100% cash guy (even though I have a credit card for those situations when its required) and respect those that refuse to apply to every single credit card opportunity out there.


I actually giggled at the dude comment! Senior citizens trying to be "hip"  

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: ItalianFlyer
Posted 2013-03-29 20:07:55 and read 8609 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 40):
Let me make my thoughts a bit clearer. I see the FL acquisition as a way to clean out competition and prevent excess capacity. FL was pretty well saturated east of the Mississippi. They only had one way to grow in the US and that would have started to impact WN even more. IMO, this was a preemptive move to avoid having to deal with FL expanding a lot in the central and western US.

Valid point....it also helped that Forano & Co. were eager to cut and run after the failed ATA asset play in MDW and Midwest takeover in MKE. They knew those were the last, best opportunities to grow the network outside of ATL and Florida. They did not have the cash on hand building an organic hub in say....MCI or STL. I strongly suspect that FL was the one who made the first overtures to get this merger done.
Just an assumption....if anyone knows the inside intel I am quite curious.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-03-29 20:20:21 and read 8523 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 40):
is it just me, or is that kinda rude? anyway

I'm sorry, was I talking to you? BTW, it IS just you, as it has been used on this forum many times and you're the first I've seen to complain. I hope that didn't give you a reason not to like me. Obviously, whether you do or not is totally irrelevant.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 40):
not everyone wants to sign up for a credit card. I HATE credit cards. I'm a 100% cash guy (even though I have a credit card for those situations when its required) and respect those that refuse to apply to every single credit card opportunity out there.

Did lightsaber say he refused to sign up for a card or are you talking for him? I merely pointed out that....

'The Delta Skymiles card from American Express gives you the first bag free for you and up to 8 others traveling with you'.

Apply TODAY !!

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: cjg225
Posted 2013-03-29 20:21:26 and read 8515 times.

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
I think you, me, and scores of others here on this site all recognize that WN is hardly this LCC upstart anymore but a true mature legacy carrier with the same legacy problems. I just wish the media would stop with the teflon darling treatment--it's pathetic, really.

I am still amazed at how pervasive the idea is that WN is still this truly low-cost carrier that shames the legacy carriers. I don't religiously price shop my flights since I'll pay for convenience, but I will take good deals. WN very, very rarely has lower prices for what I fly. WN is often *above*-average cost when I am checking around.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-03-29 20:39:55 and read 8372 times.

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 43):
Did I ever mention anything about profits? I was merely saying that they essentially locked themselves out of charging for baggage as a revenue stream with their aggressive bags fly free campaign should they decide that that's best.

I would say calculated risk. The system in place is more than capable of charging for bags, but they didn't want to go that route. As stated before, there is no need to charge for bags when other carriers immediately match your fare increases - every single time.

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 43):
OK, great numbers. Why are they pushing for these concessions ( less sick days, outsourcing) then. I sense a bit more to this story.

I think we just need to look at where WN is having to expand going forward. The days of launching markets with 10-12 daily flights is over. When they go international, they'll need to have this flexibility for stations that will only have a flight or two a day. Also domestically there aren't anymore large cities to go into that can support a lot of capacity. The DSMs, DAYs, and BKGs are where the growth will be.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-03-29 21:15:43 and read 8205 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 33):
The Delta Skymiles Card from American Express' would give you free bags for you and up to 8 others. You, your kids, your friends, your friend's kids.

Fair enough. That opens one more option...

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 46):
Did lightsaber say he refused to sign up for a card or are you talking for him? I merely pointed out that....

I took no offense. I just ignore credit card offers after getting a few good cards...

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: jethawk
Posted 2013-03-29 23:37:21 and read 7578 times.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 42):
As I stated above, it's between 2-4 agents working turnarounds on all types.

I would have thought your precious union would protect you from breaking a sweat. I hope you at least park planes with two wing walkers.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2013-03-29 23:45:32 and read 7562 times.

Quoting jethawk (Reply 50):
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 42):
As I stated above, it's between 2-4 agents working turnarounds on all types.

I would have thought your precious union would protect you from breaking a sweat. I hope you at least park planes with two wing walkers.

I'm sorry...what's your point?

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: justlump
Posted 2013-03-30 01:31:36 and read 7257 times.

Quoting jethawk (Reply 50):

No, unfortunately we only get one wing walker.

As others have pointed out, flights are worked using 2 to 4 rampers depending on the schedule, time of day, etc.

The Union is concerned with outsourcing employees, cutting sick time, two-tiered wages, and adequate staffing for the 800s.
WN rampers are loyal, productive, and hard-working. We are aware of the changes to the industry and want to keep WN competitive.
One thing to remember is that with the "Bags Fly Free" policy, WN rampers are getting hammered. I used to work for Continental/United and I can honestly say that the 737 bag loads at WN are easily DOUBLE what I experienced at CO/UA. Since the bags are free...our customers take EVERYTHING with them. Add a maxed-out bag load with a 25min turn and you are putting a serious strain on your workforce. That is extra wear and tear on your body, extra fatigue, and a greater chance of injury.
For example, a couple of weeks ago during Spring Break we unloaded a full 73G while two gates away United rampers unloaded a full 753. Both flights terminated and were completely unloaded. Talking to some United rampers afterward, I found out that both airlines downloaded approximately the same amount of bags! Thats right, a UA 757-300 had the same bag load as a WN 737 (and we downloaded ours in half the time!)!
So, considering our productivity and work load, we just want a fair contract. But don't get me wrong, we want Southwest to be successful and competitive as well.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2013-03-30 03:10:45 and read 6969 times.

Quoting justlump (Reply 52):
One thing to remember is that with the "Bags Fly Free" policy, WN rampers are getting hammered. I used to work for Continental/United and I can honestly say that the 737 bag loads at WN are easily DOUBLE what I experienced at CO/UA. Since the bags are free...our customers take EVERYTHING with them.

   Bag loads have easily doubled in the 8 years I've been at WN! Size and weight if each individual bag has gone way up as well.

Quoting justlump (Reply 52):
No, unfortunately we only get one wing walker.

We get one wing walker on pushback (except for extremely tight gates), none for parking arrivals. I wouldn't be surprised if more wing walkers are required in the future as WN has adopted just about every traditional procedure in the name of safety since the FL deal. But a 2 wing walker requirement would be a NIGHTMARE. We already find plenty of situations where individual agents are supposed to be at two places at the same time out there, so there's really not enough staff for that kind of requirement.

[Edited 2013-03-30 03:13:13]

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-03-30 03:19:47 and read 6961 times.

Quoting luvfa (Reply 9):
Outsourcing, they can outsource any stations opened post 2009 with less than, (I believe) 8 flights. The comnpany is trying to be able to outsource any station, 555 is trying to prevent that!

If the union Is so convinced of the superiority of their workforce vs. what a contracted vendor could provide, why not have a clause where the union has the right to bid on any potentially-outsourced work and stay within X percent of the vendor?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 22):
WN could have bag fees... But they have grabbed most of the customers who want to avoid them.

  

There hasn't been a discernible shift in market share toward WN since bag fees came into widespread existence at other carriers. In fact, that's why AS eventually chose to go with bag fees - those "goodwill bookings" of customers defecting from fee-charging carriers never materialized.

Quoting justlump (Reply 52):
Since the bags are free...our customers take EVERYTHING with them. Add a maxed-out bag load with a 25min turn and you are putting a serious strain on your workforce. That is extra wear and tear on your body, extra fatigue, and a greater chance of injury.

You're actually making an excellent argument for charging bag fees; fewer customers would check bags, they'd be lighter on average, and OJI/LTI rates would decrease.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: vegas005
Posted 2013-03-30 04:54:52 and read 6617 times.

The government needs to close the loophole for ancillary fees such as baggage fees as the revenue is not taxed. Once this is in done we would see the true price to fly. As it is now it is a crap shoot.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-03-30 05:03:16 and read 6623 times.

Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 37):
Senior citizens

Not there yet! Closing in fast, though.   

And you, whippersnapper (at 15), aren't anywhere near a DL (NW doesn't exist anymore) ramp.  

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: beechtobus
Posted 2013-03-30 08:31:04 and read 5562 times.

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 48):

"The government needs to close the loophole for ancillary fees such as baggage fees as the revenue is not taxed. Once this is in done we would see the true price to fly. As it is now it is a crap shoot."

Where does this nonsense of ancillary revenue not being taxed come from? This is absolutely wrong, ancillary revenue is taxed as income on a regular sale of a good or service so these charges see a tax of 7 or so percent. Airlines pay taxes on ancillary revenue, period. The regular base fare incurs roughly a 20% tax, which for what ever reason is more than so called sin taxes (I.e. liquor, tobacco) that a high to discourage their use. If ancillary fees by regulation are to be rolled back into the base fare of a ticket, these items are effectively going to be taxed at a 20 percent rate instead of a 7 percent rate. I promise that the airlines wont eat this and the increased tax will be passed on to the customer, stifling demand, hurting everyone. I'm not sure why you are so set on passengers being forced to pay more tax on their airfare for extras they may or may not use.

Also regarding seeing the true price to fly is a ridiculous notion. By and large, in every segment of the retail sector (not just the airlines), products are being unbundled as disposable income is eroding and people want to choose what they pay for. The one price fits all approach is fast becoming an old school mentality. As long as airlines disclose these fees when passengers book (which all airlines I've experienced do), I really don't see the problem with doing this. If some airlines still chose not to unbundle, fine, more power to them, but don't force everyone into this pricing structure. Also I have no clue what the tax rate for ancillary revenue has to do with seeing the true price to fly.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: 737tanker
Posted 2013-03-30 08:59:35 and read 5511 times.

Quoting slider (Reply 2):
No, bags fly free because your company couldn't charge for them at some point and are now way past the point of no return on backtracking on it.


WN has always charged for the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and more bags. Also if the 1st and 2nd bag was overweight they do, and always have, charge for that. To say that WN didn't charge for bags because they couldn't is ludicrous.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Triple7Lr
Posted 2013-03-30 09:03:50 and read 5482 times.

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 50):

Actually airlines don't pay taxes on ancillary revenue. The senate has debated this subject ever since airlines started charging for bags. Here's an article discussing it:

http://transportation.nationaljourna...7/should-airline-fees-be-taxed.php

Here's another more descriptive one by the WSJ.
Posted 2013-03-30 09:28:15 and read 5435 times.

Quoting justlump (Reply 45):

Oh, come on..........you're doing no more now than we used to do on a 727 turnaround to/from ATL in SLC (before the DL/WA merger). Park the plane (TWO wing walkers at all times), unload it (FULL of bags), unload the bags in the bagroom, go upstairs and clean and restock the a/c, load the cargo and bags (typically 250+ of just connecting bags), close it up, push it back and let her go. That was with a crew of 3 or 4. Then, during the winter, add in de-icing as another part of the job.


So, while I'm not trying to disparage the job you do, because I've done it, but, for that same reason, you won't get alot of sympathy from me. Somehow, people try to make it sound like the job, today, is more difficult than it use to be. Somehow, I sincerely doubt it. If anything, the job should be easier, now.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: mcdu
Posted 2013-03-30 09:30:32 and read 5415 times.

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 52):
Actually airlines don't pay taxes on ancillary revenue. The senate has debated this subject ever since airlines started charging for bags. Here's an article discussing it:

I believe that is exactly what beech was referring to. The airlines don't pay the 20% excise tax, however they do pay regular taxes on the ancillary fees.

In effect rolling the ancillary fees under the excise tax will see an increase in the amount of fees to cover the tax increase. You would in effect be asking for higher airfares to GIVE the government MORE taxes versus the current plan.

If that is the case that you are so in favor of taxes. Perhaps you are in favor of elimination of fuel hedging, slot gifting and various other WN benefits over the past several years?

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-03-30 09:31:22 and read 5410 times.

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 52):
Actually airlines don't pay taxes on ancillary revenue.

Airlines pay income tax on ancillary revenue, but they don't pay the U.S. Transportation Tax on it, like is assessed upon airfares. Two separate taxes.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-03-30 09:56:03 and read 5364 times.

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 51):
To say that WN didn't charge for bags because they couldn't is ludicrous.

Ludicrous indeed. But it's also true. They can't charge for the 1st or 2nd (which is a lot more common than 3-4-5+) in a consistent enough way that they are able to do it online and at the airport. It's been explained many times on here in a much better way than I can. It's the same reason they can't assign seats.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 54):
You would in effect be asking for higher airfares to GIVE the government MORE taxes versus the current plan.

  

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):

There hasn't been a discernible shift in market share toward WN since bag fees came into widespread existence at other carriers. In fact, that's why AS eventually chose to go with bag fees - those "goodwill bookings" of customers defecting from fee-charging carriers never materialized.

   The idea of "share shift" because of no bag fees is so looney tunes for so many reasons I can't believe anyone honestly gave it any consideration.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: 737tanker
Posted 2013-03-30 10:21:13 and read 5324 times.

MavericM11
You are right and Gary Kelly is wrong! WN doesn't charge for the 1st and 2nd bag because they can't, not because they don't want to. WN can only charge for more than two bags, overweight bags, pets, and UMs, but the are incapable of charging for the 1st and 2nd bag. I guess they also don't charge a change fee, like the other airlines, because they can't not because they don't want to. Also the assigned seat experiment WN tried in SAN a few years ago didn't happen because WN can't assign seats.
WN does things differently because WN's management (even in the days of Herb) wants to do it differently not because they can't.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: vegas005
Posted 2013-03-30 10:23:12 and read 5319 times.

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 50):

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 48):

"The government needs to close the loophole for ancillary fees such as baggage fees as the revenue is not taxed. Once this is in done we would see the true price to fly. As it is now it is a crap shoot."

Where does this nonsense of ancillary revenue not being taxed come from? This is absolutely wrong, ancillary revenue is taxed as income on a regular sale of a good or service so these charges see a tax of 7 or so percent. Airlines pay taxes on ancillary revenue, period. The regular base fare incurs roughly a 20% tax, which for what ever reason is more than so called sin taxes (I.e. liquor, tobacco) that a high to discourage their use. If ancillary fees by regulation are to be rolled back into the base fare of a ticket, these items are effectively going to be taxed at a 20 percent rate instead of a 7 percent rate. I promise that the airlines wont eat this and the increased tax will be passed on to the customer, stifling demand, hurting everyone. I'm not sure why you are so set on passengers being forced to pay more tax on their airfare for extras they may or may not use.

Also regarding seeing the true price to fly is a ridiculous notion. By and large, in every segment of the retail sector (not just the airlines), products are being unbundled as disposable income is eroding and people want to choose what they pay for. The one price fits all approach is fast becoming an old school mentality. As long as airlines disclose these fees when passengers book (which all airlines I've experienced do), I really don't see the problem with doing this. If some airlines still chose not to unbundle, fine, more power to them, but don't force everyone into this pricing structure. Also I have no clue what the tax rate for ancillary revenue has to do with seeing the true price to fly.

Sorry but you are completely wrong. A nice story you wrote, but incorrect. Part of the reason airlines love ancillary fees is that they're not taxed. Some fees, such as the "peak travel" surcharges, which are essentially part of your ticket, are subject to the 7.5 percent excise tax levied against fares. But ancillary fees such as checked-bag fees are not considered by the IRS to be related to the transport of a person, and therefore not taxed at all. I know this for a fact so let's don't debate...look it up.

Cheers.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-03-30 10:40:51 and read 5276 times.

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 58):
But ancillary fees such as checked-bag fees are not considered by the IRS to be related to the transport of a person, and therefore not taxed at all. I know this for a fact so let's don't debate...look it up.

But is it not still considered "income" by the IRS and therefore the airline is taxed, that way?  

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-03-30 11:11:07 and read 5223 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 53):
So, while I'm not trying to disparage the job you do, because I've done it, but, for that same reason, you won't get alot of sympathy from me. Somehow, people try to make it sound like the job, today, is more difficult than it use to be. Somehow, I sincerely doubt it.

Turnaround times have gone down, that much we know. And I don't recall DL's turnaround times (or anyone else's for that matter) ever being shorter than WN's. Same amount of work but less time to do it in does equal a more demanding job.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-03-30 11:21:06 and read 5201 times.

Quoting kcrwflyer (Reply 18):
Serious? You can't dump a larger plane in the mix and expect it to flow like it's not any different. That's what happens when upper management has lost touch with the realities of the task at hand.
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 46):
But a 2 wing walker requirement would be a NIGHTMARE. We already find plenty of situations where individual agents are supposed to be at two places at the same time out there, so there's really not enough staff for that kind of requirement.

I know the feel, guys. We went through the same "growing pains" a few years ago, and still have to deal with understaffing occasionally.

We had one field station where there was nobody to work fleet launch one day, because the new contract guys weren't scheduled correctly for the first day. The sad thing was, the contracted workgroup is a wholly-owned subsidiary.

Quoting mayor (Reply 59):
But is it not still considered "income" by the IRS and therefore the airline is taxed, that way?

For the base ticket fare, the tax is paid directly by the passenger. Ancillary revenue is not directly taxed on anyone. If the airline makes a profit, they pay the income tax on that profit, no matter where the money comes from.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-03-30 11:39:02 and read 5175 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 61):
If the airline makes a profit, they pay the income tax on that profit, no matter where the money comes from.

That's what I was talking about.

Quoting Mir (Reply 60):
And I don't recall DL's turnaround times (or anyone else's for that matter) ever being shorter than WN's.

As I recall, the standard time for a "thru" flight was 25 minutes or less (depending on type of a/c) and 35 minutes for a turnaround. Now, on a turnaround, the schedule could be more than this, but we always had at least that amount.

Quoting Mir (Reply 60):
Same amount of work but less time to do it in does equal a more demanding job.

Do you also clean and re-stock the cabin? Deliver and unload the local bags in the bagroom? Not counted in this mix (because they don't affect the turnaround) are delivering the mail and cargo, maintaining and repairing the ground equipment, etc. The point is, the job isn't really all that much more difficult (if any) than it used to be, no matter the airline. When our flights changed from a 727 to a 757, we still operated with the same number of people and I have, on occasion, been in the rear bin of a 757, by myself, loading and unloading.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2013-03-30 11:55:17 and read 5155 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 62):
The point is, the job isn't really all that much more difficult (if any) than it used to be, no matter the airline.

Well the workload at WN has increased in the last 3-5 years, that is fact. Flights are heavier than they ever used to be.

But I get your point, and coworkers who have worked at other airlines in the past tend to agree with your point. But regardless, getting a WN flight out on time these days is no easy task. Nearly mpossible with the minimum of 2 agents.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: PDX88
Posted 2013-03-30 13:14:27 and read 5033 times.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 63):

What is the percentage roughly of flights you work a day (excluding RONs) that you offload 100% of the bags? For most WN flights I figured a decent amount of bags stay on the plane untouched for a thru flight. I ask only of curiosity.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-03-30 14:20:03 and read 4921 times.

Quoting justlump (Reply 45):
One thing to remember is that with the "Bags Fly Free" policy, WN rampers are getting hammered. I used to work for Continental/United and I can honestly say that the 737 bag loads at WN are easily DOUBLE what I experienced at CO/UA.
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):
There hasn't been a discernible shift in market share toward WN since bag fees came into widespread existence at other carriers.

How exactly do we reconcile the comments above?
If no market shift, the increased baggage is simply due to existing pax now checking bags because the first two are free?

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-03-30 14:20:26 and read 4930 times.

Quoting justlump (Reply 45):
One thing to remember is that with the "Bags Fly Free" policy, WN rampers are getting hammered. I used to work for Continental/United and I can honestly say that the 737 bag loads at WN are easily DOUBLE what I experienced at CO/UA. Since the bags are free...our customers take EVERYTHING with them. Add a maxed-out bag load with a 25min turn and you are putting a serious strain on your workforce. That is extra wear and tear on your body, extra fatigue, and a greater chance of injury.

I can understand exactly what you are saying because every since UA started charging customers for their checked bags our total number of bags that we are checking in at the check in counter has dropped. And United does not have 25 minute turns and when you are talking about a 737-800 you really don't realize how long that aircraft is until you get inside the pit. When UA and CO first merged UA was use to having a lead and 2 or 3 ramp guys on each gate and when you only are dealing with A320/19 and 757 you have enough people because the A320 and 757 both have cargo loading systems and the A319 is so short that one person can load each pit with out any help. However once UA employees started working CO 737-800 no one understood why gate leads started asking for more help at the gates with those trips. I had no idea how long the cargo pits inside the 737-800 were until I looked inside one and it became clear that one person can't load the 800 by themselves because our 800 do not have a cargo loading system. Now UA has 5-6 guys loading a 737-800, so its understandable that Southwest employees need more people when they are loading their 737-800 especially seeing that they put a lot more bags on their planes than UA puts on ours.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: flyibaby
Posted 2013-03-30 14:36:11 and read 4897 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 62):
Do you also clean and re-stock the cabin? Deliver and unload the local bags in the bagroom? Not counted in this mix (because they don't affect the turnaround) are delivering the mail and cargo, maintaining and repairing the ground equipment, etc. The point is, the job isn't really all that much more difficult (if any) than it used to be, no matter the airline. When our flights changed from a 727 to a 757, we still operated with the same number of people and I have, on occasion, been in the rear bin of a 757, by myself, loading and unloading.

Absolutely - you put the nail on the head! I don't quite understand the WN ramp complaint. The most staff I ever get for a 737 (any size) and A320 is 5 people. Now these five as Mayor states above, have to unload all bags and get them to claim in 14mins for first bag and 20 for last, with all priority bags obviously down first, and all bags scanned at the claim belt. While this is going on, 2-3 people have to complete the turn clean, which depending upon the trip time, might require a full complement of blankets and pillows in ever single seat - no F/A's cleaning for us. When they get done, they have to come down and service the water and lavatories, then collect the 20+ gate checked bags while others are clearing the bagroom for last bags (because there isn't an additional 3-4 people working in the bagroom listening to the stereo while they stand next to the belt like there is in many WN bagrooms - I've seen and heard it too many times for coincidence) From this point, one person gets to go inside and send the weight and balance, while the rest of the team is busy disconnecting air & power, removing chalks, cones, guiding jetways, and yes - actually wingwalking an aircraft!

Everyday I drive down the service road on the ramp, and this single "overworked" WN wingwalker while waiting for push (at least in my station on the West Coast) can normally be seen wearing his wireless headset, sitting on the side of a beltloader without a care in the world, playing with his wands, and finally when the aircraft is already pushing, he/she finally gets off their rearend and starts a slow lesuirly stroll to disconnect the towbar after pushback.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: mtnwest1979
Posted 2013-03-30 15:30:19 and read 4816 times.

Quoting flyibaby (Reply 67):
Absolutely - you put the nail on the head! I don't quite understand the WN ramp complaint. The most staff I ever get for a 737 (any size) and A320 is 5 people. Now these five as Mayor states above, have to unload all bags and get them to claim in 14mins for first bag and 20 for last, with all priority bags obviously down first, and all bags scanned at the claim belt. While this is going on, 2-3 people have to complete the turn clean, which depending upon the trip time, might require a full complement of blankets and pillows in ever single seat - no F/A's cleaning for us. When they get done, they have to come down and service the water and lavatories, then collect the 20+ gate checked bags while others are clearing the bagroom for last bags (because there isn't an additional 3-4 people working in the bagroom listening to the stereo while they stand next to the belt like there is in many WN bagrooms - I've seen and heard it too many times for coincidence) From this point, one person gets to go inside and send the weight and balance, while the rest of the team is busy disconnecting air & power, removing chalks, cones, guiding jetways, and yes - actually wingwalking an aircraft!

Everyday I drive down the service road on the ramp, and this single "overworked" WN wingwalker while waiting for push (at least in my station on the West Coast) can normally be seen wearing his wireless headset, sitting on the side of a beltloader without a care in the world, playing with his wands, and finally when the aircraft is already pushing, he/she finally gets off their rearend and starts a slow lesuirly stroll to disconnect the towbar after pushback.

Wow ,sounds like you are working at the wrong company then.....  

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-03-30 15:34:25 and read 4803 times.

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 38):
I strongly suspect that FL was the one who made the first overtures to get this merger done. Just an assumption....if anyone knows the inside intel I am quite curious.

WN approached FL.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2013-03-30 15:53:19 and read 4775 times.

Quoting flyibaby (Reply 67):
Absolutely - you put the nail on the head! I don't quite understand the WN ramp complaint.

Due to the relatively quick turnaround times and high frequency, tasks are divided up. The two gate agents do not do everything you described above because that is simply IMPOSSIBLE in 25-35 minutes.

We typically have things set up like this:

-T-Point (Bag Room) has it's own staff of agents sorting through the flights. At SAN we have 4 zones, each with one agent handling about 6 or more flights per zone at any given time. T-point has become a target for pulling agents to fill other spots like working flights at unstaffed gates.

-Most gates are staffed with 2 dedicated agents responsible for bringing the plane in, getting in the bins for offloading/loading, deciding how to split the load, paperwork, hooking up and unhooking ground power and PC air etc. and pushing out the aircraft. I say most gates because at SAN, we have two gates that are not staffed yet have flights scheduled at them meaning agents get pulled from other duties to work those flights.

-Local Bag Runner/Driver who meets the flight, helps offload and delivers bags to baggage claim. They are assigned to flights, not gates. Conflicts are common as many times a local driver will have two flights on the ground at the same time, causing problems.

-A Transfer Runner/Driver who is responsible for collecting and delivering transfer bags to their connections. This position has been targetted recently for pulling the agent to fill in somewhere else. Transfer tasks are then given to local drivers who have to deliver connecting bags first, then drop local bags incresing time before bags get to customers.

SAN has a provisioning department so they handle stocking the aircraft with snacks, drinks, dumping trash etc. At non-provisioning stations, the gate agents are responsible for provisioning duties.

The above describes the way things are done at most medium to large stations. Smaller stations will have a couple agents doing all of the duties much like you described at your airline.

The system I just mentioned works great if every position is staffed and everything is on time. That never happens anymore. Flights are scheduled closer than ever these days so there is no room for error. (one flight a few minutes late conflicts with another arriving early, etc.) Then you have this new thing where they don't want to fill every spot. Someone calls in sick, instead of filling it with overtime they pull agents from one task and assign them to another. Not uncommon for say, gate 5's agents being pulled from gate 5 to unstaffed gate 3, and while they are working gate 3 Operations will move a flight from another gate because of a conflict to gate 5. Now you don't have anyone working gate 5. It's a constant shuffle...a cluster-F... BUT WE MAKE IT WORK. Which, obviously, is why they continue to run things that way. But every day we are being pushed closer to the limit.

And by the way, these aren't complaints from me. I'm describing how things are done because people asked earlier in this thread.

[Edited 2013-03-30 16:04:28]

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: beechtobus
Posted 2013-03-30 16:03:37 and read 4733 times.

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 48):

Sorry, you're incorrect. Airlines collect income from selling extras such as drinks, food, baggage handling, priority seating, etc. Here in America income is taxed. There is no hiding this income from the IRS. Income from these sales don't go into a magic pot that the IRS doesn't see and airlines are not charitable or religious organizations exempt from paying tax on income. In some cases some of these items are also subject to local and/or state sales taxes. How can you insist that these items aren't taxed? Whether these items are included in the base price or not, the airline receives income on these items that is taxed. Had you said that as a result of unbundling these items from the base fare makes them not subject to the federal excise tax and other taxes that the base fare is subject to, then there would be no debate, but that was not your assertion. You said that ancillary fees are not taxed, there is no debating that this is wrong. The income from these items are subject to being taxed just like a Slurpee that 7-11 sells or a back rub that Massage Envy sells, bottom line.

But let's pretend that you are correct, and say that airlines pay no tax from the income or sale of these items. Why do you feel that passengers should have to pay an average of 20 percent tax on all items? Sure, the airline has to fit this bill initially but these taxes are passed on to the passengers. Do you not agree that demand will negatively be affected if passengers are essentially forced to pay %20 tax on %100 of their fare instead of %20 some amount less than %100 of their fare. You claim that forcing the entire fare to be taxed at this rate will presumably create some kind of transparency in airfares but you never say how, nor do you say who exactly this benefits.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: nutsaboutplanes
Posted 2013-03-30 16:18:55 and read 4701 times.

Two agents is tight in my opinion. My carrier has crews or 3, one team lead and 2 assists. This is a standard crew for 737's, A319's, and A320's. An additional agent is added to the A321 and B757 due to the logistics of the bin.

For MOST airlines, checked bag #'s are down historically.....flights that used to have 180 bags now have 140 etc.....I would be willing to bet that WN has not seen the same trending in this statistic.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Triple7Lr
Posted 2013-03-30 16:40:47 and read 4654 times.

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 71):

Everyone's right and wrong.

Some fees, such as the "peak travel" surcharges, which are essentially part of your ticket, are subject to the 7.5 percent excise tax levied against fares. But ancillary fees such as checked-bag fees are not considered by the IRS to be related to the transport of a person, and therefore NOT TAXED AT ALL.


http://www.smartertravel.com/blogs/t...irlines-ditch-them.html?id=5180858

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: wwtraveler99
Posted 2013-03-30 17:11:17 and read 4594 times.

Quoting beechtobus (Reply 36):
What?!?! I'm confused, are these numbers labor cost or CASM?

Its exactly how I described them it is airline employee until cost as part of their total CASM. Of course 3.8 cents is not the total CASM for WN. The 3.8 cent represents the labor portion only.



WW

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-03-30 17:21:42 and read 4583 times.

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 73):
But ancillary fees such as checked-bag fees are not considered by the IRS to be related to the transport of a person, and therefore NOT TAXED AT ALL.

Do you seriously want us to believe that those ancillary fees, are not considered, by the IRS as INCOME? I think you're confusing what we are saying. Those fees are NOT directly taxed, but they certainly are, once they become income. How could it be any other way?  

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: 737tanker
Posted 2013-03-30 18:21:04 and read 4511 times.

Quoting flyibaby (Reply 67):
Everyday I drive down the service road on the ramp, and this single "overworked" WN wingwalker while waiting for push (at least in my station on the West Coast) can normally be seen wearing his wireless headset, sitting on the side of a beltloader without a care in the world, playing with his wands, and finally when the aircraft is already pushing, he/she finally gets off their rearend and starts a slow lesuirly stroll to disconnect the towbar after pushback.


You do realize that this WN wingwalker and his tug driving partner were the 2 who marshalled the aircraft in, attached the ground power; plugged in and turned on the conditioned air; brought the strollers and personal wheelchairs up to the passengers in the jetway; unloaded the aircraft; loaded the aircraft; brought down from the jetway any strollers, personal wheelchairs, and carryons that didn't fit in the overhead bins; disconnected the conditioned air; and then disconnected the ground power. When you saw him sitting he was waiting for the pilots to finish their "Before Push Checklist" before the pilots asked ATC for permission to pushback.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2013-03-30 18:22:15 and read 4508 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
The revenue disappeared from one day to the next. You've seen how hard it is to cut costs with the same speed; all those carriers have been trying for years to reign in costs



It doesn't matter which airline. My possible fix would be for all the airlines to get together and charge premium higher fares to such expensive, congested, out of date revenue robber airports such as EWR, JFK and LGA and BOS to name a few. One could also add a few more to this bunch. The demand is so high for these airports but due to substandard facilities and congested air lanes these destinations cause nothing but aggravation, delays and money flying out the emergency exit. Demand is quite high for flying to the above mentioned airports. So, I say if you want to fly into the big three NYC airports and ORD then you should pay for it. Bags can still fly free but lets even up the playing field. This would also divert business to the smaller less expensive airports. As long as there are a plethora of RJ flights for $59 fares you are going to bleed money like a side of beef carcass slit at the meat packing plant.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-03-30 18:57:42 and read 4454 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 75):
Do you seriously want us to believe that those ancillary fees, are not considered, by the IRS as INCOME? I think you're confusing what we are saying. Those fees are NOT directly taxed, but they certainly are, once they become income. How could it be any other way?

Corporations do not pay income taxes the same as individuals do.

If the airline takes in, say, 30 million dollars in baggage fees, but posts a net loss of 5 million dollars, they pay zero taxes on that 30 million dollars.

If the airline takes in 30 million in bag fees and posts a net profit of 5 million dollars, they are only taxed on that 5 million.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-03-30 19:56:07 and read 4377 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 62):
been in the rear bin of a 757, by myself, loading and unloading.
Quoting 737tanker (Reply 76):
Quoting flyibaby (Reply 67):
Everyday I drive down the service road on the ramp, and this single "overworked" WN wingwalker while waiting for push (at least in my station on the West Coast) can normally be seen wearing his wireless headset, sitting on the side of a beltloader without a care in the world, playing with his wands, and finally when the aircraft is already pushing, he/she finally gets off their rearend and starts a slow lesuirly stroll to disconnect the towbar after pushback.


You do realize that this WN wingwalker and his tug driving partner were the 2 who marshalled the aircraft in, attached the ground power; plugged in and turned on the conditioned air; brought the strollers and personal wheelchairs up to the passengers in the jetway; unloaded the aircraft; loaded the aircraft; brought down from the jetway any strollers, personal wheelchairs, and carryons that didn't fit in the overhead bins; disconnected the conditioned air; and then disconnected the ground power. When you saw him sitting he was waiting for the pilots to finish their "Before Push Checklist" before the pilots asked ATC for permission to pushback.

And freezing his butt off in the winter waiting for the tower to give clearance to push. Or in summer, waiting in the hot sun...just standing there....waiting. And then comes his next flight that has to wait for his current flight to depart from the gate. So, no break in between flights. I've had it happen dozens of times. Flights back to back to back to back to back. Standing there not doing anything is not as 'easy' as it looks!

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-03-30 20:25:39 and read 4321 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 78):
If the airline takes in 30 million in bag fees and posts a net profit of 5 million dollars, they are only taxed on that 5 million.

And if that 30 million in bag fees wasn't collected, then they wouldn't have made a profit of 5 million and they would have paid NO taxes. My point is that those fees, somewhere along the line, contributed to the INCOME of the company......income that was taxed.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: beechtobus
Posted 2013-03-30 20:31:13 and read 4304 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 75):

  

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2013-03-30 20:45:20 and read 4297 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 79):

Yawn...for those of us who have actually been rampers, you're not convincing anyone.

It's called "part of the job you signed up for"

Some days it's easy, some days it's not. But you left that part out (easy days) conveniently...

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2013-03-30 21:00:45 and read 4271 times.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 82):
Some days it's easy, some days it's not. But you left that part out (easy days) conveniently...

I agree. However the easier days, at my WN station at least, are becoming fewer and far between.

A slow, "easy" day gets much harder because those are great days for them to run us even thinner on staff.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-03-30 21:15:50 and read 4223 times.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 83):
I agree. However the easier days, at my WN station at least, are becoming fewer and far between.

A slow, "easy" day gets much harder because those are great days for them to run us even thinner on staff.

The trouble is, in my experience, that the weird, strange crap always happens on the "slow, easy" days.  

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-03-30 22:04:32 and read 4167 times.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 82):
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 79):

Yawn...for those of us who have actually been rampers, you're not convincing anyone.

Are you saying I've not been a ramper? Sorry to disappoint you, I have plenty of experience as a ramper. In the heat, in the cold, in the rain, in the snow, in the bin, loading, unloading, pushing. Been there, done that! If I don't convince you, oh well.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2013-03-31 05:08:39 and read 3990 times.

Quoting jethawk (Reply 43):
I would have thought your precious union would protect you from breaking a sweat. I hope you at least park planes with two wing walkers.

Even the legacies don't always have that...

Quoting par13del (Reply 65):
If no market shift, the increased baggage is simply due to existing pax now checking bags because the first two are free?

Simple: The people who are regularly checking bags have shifted to WN while the people who rarely check bags have shifted to other carriers BECAUSE while WN does not charge a bag fee, their base fare is higher than the lower-end advance, discounted fares offered by UA, DL, and AA. So, if you're buying ahead of time and not taking bags, it's cheaper to fly a legacy. If you're buying in advance and will be checking bags or buying very close to the travel date, it's cheaper to fly WN.

Quoting mayor (Reply 84):
The trouble is, in my experience, that the weird, strange crap always happens on the "slow, easy" days.

Yeah, pretty much. The oddest day of all is an easy day where nothing crazy happens. I had one of those today. My supervisor did not. He had to deal with 4 flights while only being staffed to work two right before I came in. I was walking across the ramp as the last one taxied out.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-03-31 05:34:11 and read 3954 times.

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 86):
while the people who rarely check bags have shifted to other carriers BECAUSE while WN does not charge a bag fee, their base fare is higher than the lower-end advance, discounted fares offered by UA, DL, and AA. So, if you're buying ahead of time and not taking bags, it's cheaper to fly a legacy. If you're buying in advance and will be checking bags or buying very close to the travel date, it's cheaper to fly WN.

So are these numbers of pax not offset by those travellers who purchase tickets at the last minute where WN is always cheaper?
Walk up fares on WN are capped at less than $1,000.00, in addition to always getting a 737 size a/c versus props and RJ's the numbers should be a wash, I guess in time some number may be published but I somehow doubt it, this will always be a cause for discussion.
If WN were to start charging for first bags the number of I told you so threads would make the DC9 look small  

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: T5towbar
Posted 2013-03-31 08:13:45 and read 3834 times.

Quoting justlump (Reply 45):
For example, a couple of weeks ago during Spring Break we unloaded a full 73G while two gates away United rampers unloaded a full 753. Both flights terminated and were completely unloaded. Talking to some United rampers afterward, I found out that both airlines downloaded approximately the same amount of bags! Thats right, a UA 757-300 had the same bag load as a WN 737 (and we downloaded ours in half the time!)!
So, considering our productivity and work load, we just want a fair contract. But don't get me wrong, we want Southwest to be successful and competitive as well.

But our sCO 753's are Telair equipped. One person in the bin. (unless the carpet is busted, than it's a nightmare)
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 46):
We get one wing walker on pushback (except for extremely tight gates), none for parking arrivals. I wouldn't be surprised if more wing walkers are required in the future as WN has adopted just about every traditional procedure in the name of safety since the FL deal. But a 2 wing walker requirement would be a NIGHTMARE. We already find plenty of situations where individual agents are supposed to be at two places at the same time out there, so there's really not enough staff for that kind of requirement.

One wingwalker is very dangerous, especially dealing with the 737. I rather push a 777 any day of the week. You can see in front of you. With any 737 you can't and you definitely have to depend on your wingwalkers.

Quoting mayor (Reply 62):
As I recall, the standard time for a "thru" flight was 25 minutes or less (depending on type of a/c) and 35 minutes for a turnaround. Now, on a turnaround, the schedule could be more than this, but we always had at least that amount.

No one turns a 800 in 25-30 mins. Too many bags and not enough time. Even Telair equipped (which ours are not.) I load them (and that bastard 752 every day) At least the sUA birds (752 and Airbuses) have the nesting system which makes life a whole lot easier.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 66):
I can understand exactly what you are saying because every since UA started charging customers for their checked bags our total number of bags that we are checking in at the check in counter has dropped. And United does not have 25 minute turns and when you are talking about a 737-800 you really don't realize how long that aircraft is until you get inside the pit. When UA and CO first merged UA was use to having a lead and 2 or 3 ramp guys on each gate and when you only are dealing with A320/19 and 757 you have enough people because the A320 and 757 both have cargo loading systems and the A319 is so short that one person can load each pit with out any help. However once UA employees started working CO 737-800 no one understood why gate leads started asking for more help at the gates with those trips. I had no idea how long the cargo pits inside the 737-800 were until I looked inside one and it became clear that one person can't load the 800 by themselves because our 800 do not have a cargo loading system. Now UA has 5-6 guys loading a 737-800, so its understandable that Southwest employees need more people when they are loading their 737-800 especially seeing that they put a lot more bags on their planes than UA puts on ours.

Yeah. we work shorthanded on the sCO side. A lead and 2 agents. Sometimes get lucky for a third agent. sUA found out the hard way about our 752 and 800. Now they staff appropriately. We still dont (on the sCO side).

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 79):
And freezing his butt off in the winter waiting for the tower to give clearance to push.

Oh, I've been know to tell the crew to go back to the breakroom because the captain is taking waaaay too long to run pre-push checklist. Call OPS and tell us when you are ready.

Quoting mayor (Reply 84):
The trouble is, in my experience, that the weird, strange crap always happens on the "slow, easy" days.  

You are so right, Mayor!

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: usa330300
Posted 2013-03-31 08:38:12 and read 3789 times.

Disconcerting at best with the gentleman of Local 555 believing that bags fly free because of him and him alone. Seems a little pompous. In reality the bags do not fly free. The cost is bundled in to the cost of the fare. The same fare that pays Mr. Local 555's salary and benefits. His sign should read, "I have a job due to loyal passengers."

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2013-03-31 09:12:15 and read 3745 times.

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 88):
One wingwalker is very dangerous, especially dealing with the 737. I rather push a 777 any day of the week. You can see in front of you. With any 737 you can't and you definitely have to depend on your wingwalkers.

I suppose it depends on the gate layout and complexity of the push. More complicated pushes in tight quarters do require two wing walkers at WN. Generally though, pushes are out in the open onto a taxiway or a wide open alley. If the one wing walker stands far enough back, he can see the wingtip on the far side. The driver also has a view of the side opposite of the wing walker. Most potential hazards are obvious and can be seen coming. We also use a new wireless headset system so driver and wing walker are communicating verbally as well as listening to the conversation with the driver and flight crew.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: nutsaboutplanes
Posted 2013-03-31 09:45:13 and read 3689 times.

[quote=Silver1SWA,reply=90]Quoting T5towbar (Reply 88):
One wingwalker is very dangerous, especially dealing with the 737. I rather push a 777 any day of the week. You can see in front of you. With any 737 you can't and you definitely have to depend on your wingwalkers.

At all four major airlines where I have worked, two wing walkers is a MUST. I didn't know that any current mainline operator only used 1 wing walker until I read this thread........

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-03-31 09:52:13 and read 3679 times.

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 91):
At all four major airlines where I have worked, two wing walkers is a MUST. I didn't know that any current mainline operator only used 1 wing walker until I read this thread........

How many wing-walker related incidents has WN had versus what have other airlines incurred? How many "normally" for airports and/or airlines (I assume that certain airports have conditions that are more hazardous then others).

Tugg

[Edited 2013-03-31 09:56:03]

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-03-31 09:54:48 and read 3678 times.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 90):
I suppose it depends on the gate layout and complexity of the push. More complicated pushes in tight quarters do require two wing walkers at WN. Generally though, pushes are out in the open onto a taxiway or a wide open alley. If the one wing walker stands far enough back, he can see the wingtip on the far side. The driver also has a view of the side opposite of the wing walker. Most potential hazards are obvious and can be seen coming. We also use a new wireless headset system so driver and wing walker are communicating verbally as well as listening to the conversation with the driver and flight crew.

Sorry, but it sounds more like management's rationalization of why there aren't enough agents on the gate rather than why it's not necessary to have enough wing walkers. At some point, during the push, the driver is blind to one side or the other and that's why you need TWO wing walkers. At DL, I believe they still use a driver, signalling agent and two wing walkers. Seems old fashioned, I know, but probably very necessary. You never cut corners on safety.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-03-31 09:58:16 and read 3661 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 93):
Seems old fashioned, I know, but probably very necessary. You never cut corners on safety.

But does it actually cut safety? I understand the idea of "do everything" but do the numbers support it? Is there a real reduction in safety or just a perceived, an imagined reduction?

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-03-31 10:08:20 and read 3636 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 94):
Quoting mayor (Reply 93):
Seems old fashioned, I know, but probably very necessary. You never cut corners on safety.

But does it actually cut safety? I understand the idea of "do everything" but do the numbers support it? Is there a real reduction in safety or just a perceived, an imagined reduction?

Well, I guess you don't know until something happens, but, then it's too late, isn't it? Safety precautions are set up with "perceived" safety problems in mind for that very reason. Better to plan ahead than to be shaking your head, later, saying "how did that happen?".

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2013-03-31 10:09:07 and read 3639 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 93):
Sorry, but it sounds more like management's rationalization of why there aren't enough agents on the gate rather than why it's not necessary to have enough wing walkers. At some point, during the push, the driver is blind to one side or the other and that's why you need TWO wing walkers. At DL, I believe they still use a driver, signalling agent and two wing walkers. Seems old fashioned, I know, but probably very necessary. You never cut corners on safety.

That's my own rationalization as someone who performs the task daily.

Quoting tugger (Reply 94):
But does it actually cut safety? I understand the idea of "do everything" but do the numbers support it? Is there a real reduction in safety or just a perceived, an imagined reduction?

In my opinion, it's the latter.

But anyway, like I said WN has adopted just about every other traditional procedure in the name of safety in recent years. Safety vests, bypass pins, cones in front of engines...wing walkers are next I'm sure, but they'll have to staff appropriately.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-03-31 10:16:40 and read 3622 times.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 96):
In my opinion, it's the latter.

See my reply #95

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 96):
But anyway, like I said WN has adopted just about every other traditional procedure in the name of safety in recent years. Safety vests, bypass pins, cones in front of engines...wing walkers are next I'm sure, but they'll have to staff appropriately.

Sounds like WN was late to the game with these safety procedures. Actually, you would think it would be easier to set up safety programs at WN because all the a/c are virtually the same and working around them should be the same.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Silver1SWA
Posted 2013-03-31 10:32:40 and read 3573 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 97):
See my reply #95

I think we were posting at the same time.  

I don't think we have a higher rate of incidents than everyone else. Things happen, but almost always because procedures in place aren't followed properly.

[Edited 2013-03-31 10:43:17]

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: Kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-03-31 11:21:36 and read 3514 times.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 96):
But anyway, like I said WN has adopted just about every other traditional procedure in the name of safety in recent years. Safety vests, bypass pins, cones in front of engines...wing walkers are next I'm sure, but they'll have to staff appropriately.

Bypass pins! Were they pushing engines-off for all those years?

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: nutsaboutplanes
Posted 2013-03-31 11:50:32 and read 3460 times.

Quoting tugger (Reply 92):
How many wing-walker related incidents has WN had versus what have other airlines incurred? How many "normally" for airports and/or airlines (I assume that certain airports have conditions that are more hazardous then others).



I am sure there is no way to obtain accurate data on this.........most "incidents" are not officially reported outside of a company's own Safety department.

In my opinion, the 737 is one of the more difficult aircraft to push because it sits so low that you lose your line of sight very easily and at multiple points during a more complex push. Then there is the gate issue, some gates are so poorly set up that airlines use them as "last resort" gates or for the AM peak flight activity or RONS only.....I believe SEA's D12 was like that for AS and I know pushing off of the low A gates in SEA is not exactly easy either.

In today's safety conscious environment, I was just surprised to see that WN only uses one wing walker.

Topic: RE: Southwest Airlines Ground Employees Picket At DAL
Username: 737tanker
Posted 2013-03-31 14:17:50 and read 3314 times.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 99):
Bypass pins! Were they pushing engines-off for all those years?


No the engines were started and running during the push, but the "A" Hydraulics were off until we saw the the tug was leaving with the towbar.


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