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Topic: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: American 767
Posted 2013-03-27 20:55:11 and read 10087 times.

Air France has flown the Airbus A320 and derivatives for now 25 years. The type, which made its maiden flight in 1987, was placed in service in the Spring of 1988. Air France was, then, one of the first airlines to introduce the A320 on short haul routes. The A320 was the first airliner to be flown with joystick controls as opposed to the well known yoke controls, and the first aircraft to be designed with FBW (Fly By Wire) technology. Since then, Air France has flown mostly the A32X on routes within France, Europe and Northern Africa out of its CDG hub. The A320 has replaced the Mercure which only Air Inter has flown, the Boeing 727 and 737-200 Series, and eventually the 737-500 Series. Air France is one of only two airlines, the other being British Airways, flying all four types of Airbus narrow body models: A318, A319, A320 and A321. The A320 fleet at Air France has tremendously grown in the last 25 years, with the take over of Air Inter in the mid 1990s, and the purchase of additional units. Air France will continue to fly the A320 and derivatives for years to come. Will they fly the A320NEO? Time will tell.

I will write a translation in French, for those who live in France:

Air France utilise l'Airbus A320 ainsi que ses derives depuis maintenant 25 ans. Ce modele, qui a fait son premier vol en 1987, a ete mis en service au printemps de 1988. Air france etait, a l'epoque, une des premieres compagnies a mettre en service l'A320 sur les vols "court-courrier". L'A320 etait le premier avion de ligne pilote avec des commandes "joystick" par opposition aux commandes "yoke" que nous connaissons tous, de meme que le premier avion concu avec des commandes de vol electriques. Depuis, Air France a utilise principalement l'A320 et ses derives sur des vols en France, en Europe et Afrique du Nord au depart de sa plaque tournante Roissy Charles de Gaulle. L'A320 a remplace le Mercure que seulement Air Inter a utilise, le Boeing 727, 737-200 et plus tard le 737-500. Air France est une des deux seules compagnies, avec British Airways, a utiliser les quatres variantes d'Airbus "mono couloir": A318, A319, A320 et A321. La flotte A320 a Air France a considerablement grandi dans les 25 derniers annees, entre autre avec le rachat de la compagnie Air Inter au milieu des annees quatre-vingt dix, et l'achat d'exmeplaires supplementaires. Air France continuera d'utiliser l'A320 et derives pour encore longtemps. Vont-ils utiliser l'A320NEO? L'avenir nous le dira.


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Ben Soriano

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-03-27 21:04:46 and read 10060 times.

Thanks for marking this important anniversary; since AF was the first A320 customer, it also marks the 25th anniversary of the A320 in airline service. It's hard to imagine that, even in their wildest dreams, the people behind the A320 would have expected it to be as successful as it has become: over 7,000 sales and with the NEO, many more to come.

Of course, this is about AF and the 320 has clearly made a big difference to it, particularly given the fleet commonality it offers with the larger 330 and 340, both of which AF still operate.

I have to say that when I read the thread title, I immediately thought of the A320 crash at Habsheim, which I know was in the very early stages of AF's A320 operation; indeed, the aircraft - the third in the aircraft's fleet - had not yet been delivered.

As to the future, it's all but impossible to see any other type but the NEO in AF's future; I think it only a matter of time before it takes that jump, though with the success of the NEO, it's probably not a good idea to wait around too long.

Congratulations to AF on this milestone and long may the 320 serve in AF's fleet.

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: AF185
Posted 2013-03-27 21:40:43 and read 9983 times.

Congrats to AF and Airbus for this important milestone!

AF now operate 144 aircrafts of the A320 family:

-> A318: 18 aircrafts
-> A319: 41 aircrafts
-> A320: 60 aircrafts
-> A321: 25 aircrafts

I think it is just a matter of time before we see AF placing an order for the NEO versions.

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: jrfspa320
Posted 2013-03-27 23:22:04 and read 9828 times.

Quoting American 767 (Thread starter):
Air France is one of only two airlines, the other being British Airways, flying all four types of Airbus narrow body models: A318, A319, A320 and A321.

AF and BA are also the only two airlines to have flown both the A320-100 and A320-200 ( i think)

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: goldorak
Posted 2013-03-27 23:50:57 and read 9748 times.

What Airbus has achieved with the A320 is extraordinary. Congratulations to them and to AF to have trusted this airplane   

Quoting American 767 (Thread starter):
I will write a translation in French, for those who live in France:

Thank you for doing this  

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: RamonKok
Posted 2013-03-28 00:21:07 and read 9685 times.

In 2,5 hours my first A320 family flight and also first AF flight.
First a A321 from AMS to CDG and then a A318 from CDG to STR. Realy looking forward to it.

I didn't know that those A32x were around since 1988, that makes them a year older then me 

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2013-03-28 00:47:05 and read 9579 times.

BA has also operated the A320 for 25 years. Unlike AF, however, BA was at best a reluctant launch customer having inherited its initial 10 aircraft (5 A320-111s and 5 A320-211s) through its takeover of British Caledonian. Indeed the first couple of aircraft were painted in BCal colours, but were delivered to BA at LGW during 1988 in Landor colours. BA subsequently transferred the aircraft to LHR in late 1988, and the fleet reached the initial 10 ordered by 1990.

For a long while there were rumours BA would dispose of its small A320 fleet, either completely or to TAT European which BA held a large stake in during the early 1990s before eventually acquiring a majority stake in that airline. The A320 also lost out to the Boeing 737-436 in the early 1990s when BA placed an order for 27 of those aircraft. Things changed in the late 1990s though when BA went to modernise its shorthaul fleet and the A320 family won out over the 737NG.

BA's franchise carrires GB Airways and BMed also ordered A320s, and in a number of cases I think did so by using BA options with Airbus. Today, the original 10 A320s with BA (G-BUSB to G-BUSK) are now retired, but the BA A320 family fleet currently stands at 112 aircraft, with a further 10 on order.

2 x A318-112
44 x A319-131
48 x A320-232 (+ 10 on order)
18 x A321-231


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Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: Azure
Posted 2013-03-28 03:26:37 and read 9217 times.

Quoting American 767 (Thread starter):
Will they fly the A320NEO? Time will tell.
Quoting AF185 (Reply 2):
I think it is just a matter of time before we see AF placing an order for the NEO versions.

AF has been "studying" the NEO since 2011 and we have seen no order yet... As a matter of fact, a former AF CEO (P-H Gourgeon) stated that AF did not really need the NEO because it is best suited for routes longer than 3,500 kms when AF deploys its narrow-bodies on much shorter routes. That did not stop LH to order the NEO though... And for AF the NEO could be useful for their Middle-East operations for instance (Amman, Tel Aviv, or even Beyrouth from Nice and Marseille). The European LCCs want to be present on this market and the competition will get tougher in the next years.
It can be added that AF has always been very careful in their fleet building and they have made no mistake in this matter so far...
I am just under the impression that AF is in no hurry to place orders at Airbus right now, but this is only my personal 2 cents...

I have found one article (in French) on this subject (Does AF need the NEO ?) : http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...e-l-a320-d-airbus-remotorise-.html

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-28 12:38:17 and read 7455 times.

Quoting American 767 (Thread starter):
the first aircraft to be designed with FBW (Fly By Wire) technology

Several test and military aircraft plus the Space Shuttle used digital FBW earlier. The Concorde was the first commercial airliner to use FBW (analog). The A320 was the first commercial ailiner to use digital FBW.

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-03-28 13:52:48 and read 6679 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 7):
It can be added that AF has always been very careful in their fleet building and they have made no mistake in this matter so far...

Do you also add to this the A350 order that was put under pressure by French assembly? AF always had to order some Airbus while ordering Boeing in a matter of "hurting" no one.

The Nice, Marseille and Toulouse A320 bases are probably going to shut down by the end of the year, it's just a matter of time, and AF Short/Medium Haul network is being to be transfered partially to TO.
So I believe the only reason for AF not ordering the NEO is that no one inside is currently able to say how much aircraft AF will need in a near future.

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-03-28 14:03:09 and read 6582 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 8):
Several test and military aircraft plus the Space Shuttle used digital FBW earlier. The Concorde was the first commercial airliner to use FBW (analog). The A320 was the first commercial ailiner to use digital FBW.

Thanks for correcting this. The Concorde was actually the first designed commercial airliner to use FBW.

I'd also add that behind this sorta nice anniversary, AF was somewhat "forced" to order A320s, despite a promising Dassault design to improve the existing Mercure, that has been put to the trash bin for some political reasons. Not that I'm feeling bitter with it, but the fact that the A320 was far from being safe and accomplished, and AF crews had to finish the flight test while flying it in "normal" operations....
If you get the luck to discuss it with pilots who first flew the plane, they have pretty amazing stories to tell, I tell you
(some well know bug was the one where, if you deselected more than 5 u/s VORs on the FMGC, you got the cabin to depressurize...!).

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: Azure
Posted 2013-03-28 15:12:05 and read 6030 times.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 9):
Do you also add to this the A350 order that was put under pressure by French assembly?

What order ? It is not confirmed yet. Although the order for 25 B787 is confirmed. And please explain how the French assembly (I suppose you are talking about the Assemblée nationale) can force AF to order an aircraft ! Please also state your sources for such an info ! I hope you understand that an order in such conditions would be an infringement to free trade and competition as guaranteed by France's membership to the EU and the WTO...
Furthermore when it comes to renew its A340/B777 fleet, AFKL seems well inspired to place an order at both A and B. Relying on one manufacturer seems a bit risky in the current time (re : NH and JAL)  
Quoting airproxx (Reply 9):
So I believe the only reason for AF not ordering the NEO is that no one inside is currently able to say how much aircraft AF will need in a near future.

Really ? Based on what ? All orders by AF/KL and their subsidiaries are made by the holding company and are dispatched accordingly (re : the 787 order which KL will benefit first). Of course AFKL knows how many NB it will need in the future even if it has not made a decision on the subsidiary that should receive the new aircraft.
I am more under the impression that AF is not convinced by the NEO for their short/medium-haul network and again that it is not in a hurry to place an order at Airbus...


Quoting airproxx (Reply 10):
I'd also add that behind this sorta nice anniversary, AF was somewhat "forced" to order A320s, despite a promising Dassault design to improve the existing Mercure

If I read you correctly AF has been forced to order all the Airbuses they have in their fleet, right ?
With your theory the fact that their long-haul fleet consists in mainly Boeings (unlike LH) remains a huge mystery...
 

[Edited 2013-03-28 15:31:10]

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-03-28 15:23:48 and read 5925 times.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 10):
Quoting hivue (Reply 8):
Several test and military aircraft plus the Space Shuttle used digital FBW earlier. The Concorde was the first commercial airliner to use FBW (analog). The A320 was the first commercial ailiner to use digital FBW.

Thanks for correcting this. The Concorde was actually the first designed commercial airliner to use FBW.

The A310 (first flight 1982) also had fly-by-wire secondary flight controls (spoilers and not sure what else), as did the A300-600 which was closely related to the A310.
http://www.airbus.com/company/histor...e-narrative/fly-by-wire-1980-1987/

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-28 18:52:48 and read 4767 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
The A310 (first flight 1982) also had fly-by-wire secondary flight controls (spoilers and not sure what else), as did the A300-600 which was closely related to the A310.

The A310 has a lot more electrically-signalled flight controls than most people imagine :
- The Slats / Flaps system
- The spoilers in all functions, including the five outboard panels for roll control
- The rudder trim
- The aileron trim.
I think it is fair to say that the combination of FBW and clasic yoke + linkage + jam protection... paved the way for a more drastic all-FBW flight control system for the A320.

In terms of history, the A320 entered service with Air France on a social *field of ruins* : The pilot and FE unions had just lost the two-man cockpit war, with the split of the main union - the SNPL - who lost nearly half their troops with the creation of the SPAC who remained true to their alliance with the FEs of the SNOMAC...

The aircraft was further refused - and rubbished - by a good portion of the pilot population who clearly resented the perceived fact that Airbus was destroying their careers with the 2-man cockpit and an aircraft that would take away most of their * rules of the art*, another grandiose name for *airmanship*.

What is quite funny is that the main gripe against the 320 was Bernard Ziegler ( Airbus VP OPS and chief test pilot ) 's comment that *airline pilots were just glorified taxi drivers ".

Another problem was that AFhadn't -and nor did LH - fully realised that they needed some important changes in their A320 maintenance ; they just were still in the 747 era : the dispatch reliability wasn't great, the outstations weren't equipped with electronic spares... Air Inter who seriously prepared the 320 EIS didn't have any of these problems and had a seamless introduction, reaching reliability of 95 % +. As a matter of fact, only the entry of UTA engineers and pilots who tool example on Air Inter for their introduction of the 340 brought the changes sufficient enough to turn the 320 OPS into modern times.

For the pilots, the philosophy change was about showing that the 320 was just another aircraft by devoting the first two sim sessions to flying in direct law, and then " as you've seen the DC-3, now you'll discover flying the 320 with her complete features, protections and al ". Some change !

Of course, with such a new philosophy, there were bound to have a few mishaps due to incomplete understanding of the avionics : of these some turned into tragedy : Bangalore and Mont Sainte Odile were such. One as caused y sheer careless show-off : Habsheim.
Nowadays, the 320 is very much the main part of AF operations, both in terms of aircraft numbers and for the preparation it gives to the long-haul fleet : the 330 / 340 and the 380 are basically bigger versions with only a few différences to the philosophy Airbus introduced 25 years ago... and the FCOM is now very close to the Airbus manual.

[Edited 2013-03-28 18:55:45]

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: SEA
Posted 2013-03-28 18:59:56 and read 4723 times.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 10):
I'd also add that behind this sorta nice anniversary, AF was somewhat "forced" to order A320s, despite a promising Dassault design to improve the existing Mercure, that has been put to the trash bin for some political reasons.

Promising Dassault design to improve the Mercure? Are you talking about the proposed CFM-56 version (the Mercure 200)? That was scrapped by Dassault themselves, mostly due to concerns about the viability of the CFM-56. At that time (1975), there hadn't been a single order for the -56. It was nothing political. Though hindsight is 20/20, I can't fault Dassault for not wanting to be the first customer for a new powerplant. If there had been major reliability issues, it could have been the end of Dassault. The result today is about the same, but again, hindsight is 20/20.

I think it's a bit over the top to suggest that AF could have chosen the Mercure 200 over the A320 considering the Mercure ended production in 1975, before the A320 was even a pipe dream. If anything, the 727 and 737 were more of a threat to the Mercure than anything else.

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: francoflier
Posted 2013-03-28 19:50:15 and read 4520 times.

Quoting RamonKok (Reply 5):
In 2,5 hours my first A320 family flight and also first AF flight.
First a A321 from AMS to CDG and then a A318 from CDG to STR. Realy looking forward to it.

So, how was it? Enjoyed the croissant?

The A318 is a pocket rocket...
I once got to ride a rear facing cabin crew seat. On take off, I thought I was hanging from the ceiling by the harness.

There are few airlines in the world with such and extensive experience on A32X operations for sure. Though LH, BA, US Airways and United also spring to mind when talking about large and long serving fleets.

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: RamonKok
Posted 2013-03-29 01:17:05 and read 4148 times.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 15):

Well I realy liked the service on board, very friendly crew. The only strange thing is that I had more room inside the A318 then in the A321, probably because they had a different interior and no reclining seats but compared to a 737 I thought it was a smoother ride.

No croissant unfortunatly, but nice biscuits and something else. Terminal F at CDG nice terminal much lighter then AMS

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-03-30 21:54:36 and read 3571 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):

What order ? It is not confirmed yet. Although the order for 25 B787 is confirmed. And please explain how the French assembly (I suppose you are talking about the Assemblée nationale) can force AF to order an aircraft ! Please also state your sources for such an info ! I hope you understand that an order in such conditions would be an infringement to free trade and competition as guaranteed by France's membership to the EU and the WTO...
Furthermore when it comes to renew its A340/B777 fleet, AFKL seems well inspired to place an order at both A and B. Relying on one manufacturer seems a bit risky in the current time (re : NH and JAL)

The order is upcoming, and it's just a matter of time until it is confirmed. We all know it.
Yes I was talking about French Assembly (Assemblée Nationale pour les puristes de la langue) and Mr Carayon in particular. Pressions were put on AF-KL by some Deputees to choose the A350 over the B787.

>Asking for a link? Here it is: (Pihero's gonna be happy this time): From French financial newspaper "Les Echos" (not the usual dirty tabloid) :

http://www.lesechos.fr/09/06/2011/Le...ion-pour-choisir-l-airbus-a350.htm

>Another link (sorry everything on french):

http://www.challenges.fr/economie/20...pression-sur-sa-mega-commande.html

Part of it is quiet clear;

"Tuesday, June 14, Secretary of State for Foreign Trade Pierre Lellouche told AFP he summoned the CEO of the airline, Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, asking for explanations on his next order of a hundred long-haul Airbus or Boeing. "I'll ask Mr. Gourgeon pass me," said Pierre Lellouche. And clarify that he expected the Air France-KLM he "passes the buck" after "helped a lot when he had problems with Brussels."

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
I am more under the impression that AF is not convinced by the NEO for their short/medium-haul network and again that it is not in a hurry to place an order at Airbus...

Agreed, and add to this the fact that AF is carrying a huge debt due to all investments these past few years, combined to not so good results, and AF is definitely not in a hurry, to say the least...

Quoting Azure (Reply 11):
If I read you correctly AF has been forced to order all the Airbuses they have in their fleet, right ?
With your theory the fact that their long-haul fleet consists in mainly Boeings (unlike LH) remains a huge mystery...

No you read me bad, and AF operates an mixed fleet of Airbus and Boeing on their long haul operations, and it has always been.
Though AF operates something like 62 B777 currently, a fleet of 8 A380 + 28 A330/A340 remains, adding the 7 744 pax versions. Not really a "mainly Boeing" fleet, so don't worry, no huge mystery here.

In reverse, I don't get why some people here try to defend at all prices the reputation of a manufacturer like Airbus.... THAT is a huge mystery ....

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-31 06:52:46 and read 3371 times.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 17):
(Pihero's gonna be happy this time): From French financial newspaper "Les Echos" (not the usual dirty tabloid)

So, what's your point ? That the French members of parliament are posturing, but nearly not as much as their US counterparts ?
And where is the result of *the petition* ? ( remember that it was in 2011).. orders for the 787 !
Some pressure !
Problem is this governement is only about posturing. Nothing else except sensationalistic PR.
ordersYou also could tell us when was the last A330 /340 order by AF for AF... and the list of 777 orders, very probably pushed by some governmental **pressure**, I suppose.   

Quoting airproxx (Reply 17):
The order is upcoming, and it's just a matter of time until it is confirmed. We all know it.

To think that's a done deal is, to say the least myopic : There are too many variables and the discussions between AF and RR are certainly not going toward a nice settlement. So your **we all know it** is nothing more than wishfull thinking... for the moment.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 17):
In reverse, I don't get why some people here try to defend at all prices the reputation of a manufacturer like Airbus....

Because, unlike you, some of us could talk about meaningful comparisons : I flew 737s, ,747s of all types bar the SP, the 767 on an evaluation duty (some 85 hrs ), the Lockheed L-1011 and I flew the whole A320 family and the 330... so yes, my preference is for Airbus, philosophy and all. That philosophy is even as we speak filtering into Boeing airplanes : the 787 already has a flight envelope protection that curiously resembles what one finds on all Airbus FBW types.

But I have no agenda, except putting in perspective the uninformed ramblings of a few Airbus haters.

[Edited 2013-03-31 06:54:07]

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2013-03-31 07:28:20 and read 3294 times.

If I remember correctly, the A320 came out of the Joint European Transport (JET) program to replace the Caravelle, Trident and other smaller single-aisle airliners. Since it had to be fuel-efficient and meet new noise regulations, the result was the A320, which became a huge best-seller, especially when the orders from United, America West, and Northwest ensured its worldwide success.

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-03-31 09:11:12 and read 3198 times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
So, what's your point ? That the French members of parliament are posturing, but nearly not as much as their US counterparts ?
And where is the result of *the petition* ? ( remember that it was in 2011).. orders for the 787 !
Some pressure !
Problem is this governement is only about posturing. Nothing else except sensationalistic PR.
ordersYou also could tell us when was the last A330 /340 order by AF for AF... and the list of 777 orders, very probably pushed by some governmental **pressure**, I suppose.

My point is, as I must always translate everything for you, that if French parliament didn't tampered AF decision in buying rather A vs B, or B vs A, the order result would have probably been different.
For having a talk about it with a coworker of Pierre Vellay (who was back in 2011, AF fleet executive director), AF was rather interested in B787, and A350 was off-sided, as the 777NG would show up soon.
And now, I'm witnessing 2 things; after a deputy and the 2011 french trade secretary of state ( a usual "sensationalistic PR" addict to your eyes I suppose!) asked Mr Gourgeon to consider a bigger Airbus order, we now have a A350 back in the order book, with as you said, a difficult engine option for AF/KL.
I also remember the same kind of pressure back in 2000 when AF decided to order some B77W; and as you're fond of it, I have a present for you!! I have the source!!!! Here it is! Enjoy:

http://www.lepoint.fr/salon-du-bourg...-airbus-20-06-2011-1343888_375.php

(Sensationalistic PR you'll say....)

Extract: "The last pressure at which Air France had to resist from the year 2000, when large orders of Boeing 777-300ER jets were placed. The government of the era would have preferred to sign the Air France Airbus A340-600, a four engined proved expensive to operate, a real marketing mistake with rising fuel prices".

So no pressure exists.... You're right.... Simple "persuasion" I assume....? Or maybe you're getting to blind to admit that your dear manufacturer is not as clean as you expected it to be, especially when reading, from the same article;

"Recently, an advisor to Thierry Mariani, Secretary of State for Transport, and publicly urged Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, CEO of Air France, signed with Airbus. Thierry Mariani also hard to BEA for the investigation report on the crash of the Airbus A330 from Rio to Paris so before the Paris Air Show, which technically would not be serious. Minister seeks to whitewash the image of Airbus in the accident. His entourage will even declare that the aircraft manufacturer is responsible for 5% of the AF447 crash and crew company with 95%".

Nice.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
To think that's a done deal is, to say the least myopic : There are too many variables and the discussions between AF and RR are certainly not going toward a nice settlement. So your **we all know it** is nothing more than wishfull thinking... for the moment.

"The order is a done deal!" "No it's not a done deal".... "Yes!!".... "No !!!"......

Funny. But it is. And for one time, I wish you were right....

Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
Because, unlike you, some of us could talk about meaningful comparisons : I flew 737s, ,747s of all types bar the SP, the 767 on an evaluation duty (some 85 hrs ), the Lockheed L-1011 and I flew the whole A320 family and the 330... so yes, my preference is for Airbus, philosophy and all.

Simply because you "flown" these aircraft as a pilot makes you an expert on it? I already noticed you had a very high opinion of yourself.... But unfortunately, having flown many aircraft doesn't grant you any ability to "judge" one or another aircraft. Especially when it's for saying nonsense.
But I also noticed that when a "source" is going your way, you take it for stone settled, but when a press release or a source doesn't make you happy, soon it becomes a "sensasionalistic PR".... Your ill-faith is just as big as your arrogance and vanity. And the best illustration of this is:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
That philosophy is even as we speak filtering into Boeing airplanes : the 787 already has a flight envelope protection that curiously resembles what one finds on all Airbus FBW types.

Bingo!! So now Boeing is just a bad copy of Airbus to your eyes.... Impressively objective. Really.

To paraphrase you, I think that this post is lowering your always falling credibility, again.

I don't like Airbus. Conversely to you, I never said arbitrarily that B is better than A, while my preference goes for the US manufacturer, for a lot of reasons.

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-03-31 11:15:04 and read 3082 times.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 20):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
That philosophy is even as we speak filtering into Boeing airplanes : the 787 already has a flight envelope protection that curiously resembles what one finds on all Airbus FBW types.

Bingo!! So now Boeing is just a bad copy of Airbus to your eyes.... Impressively objective. Really.

I think it's safe to say that Boeing was a bit late to the robust envelope protection party. They didn't even have a FBW product until the 777 (and my guess would be that the majority of airplanes coming off their assembly lines today are non-FBW). And FBW flight control systems providing robust protection certainly seem to represent the future. To give Airbus their due, they have been farsighted in their long devotion to this concept.

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-03-31 12:03:17 and read 3009 times.

Quoting hivue (Reply 21):
I think it's safe to say that Boeing was a bit late to the robust envelope protection party. They didn't even have a FBW product until the 777 (and my guess would be that the majority of airplanes coming off their assembly lines today are non-FBW). And FBW flight control systems providing robust protection certainly seem to represent the future. To give Airbus their due, they have been farsighted in their long devotion to this concept.

Understood, but I have a slightly difference opinion on Boeing's policy over FBW.

-Boeing's philosophy, as I see it, is to always give the hand to the pilots, whatever the situation is. And this for many reasons, first of them probably is, FBW are computer imputs, and computers, like pilots, are NOT always 100% safe... Now, considering Boeing's policy about flight envelope protections, there's a big difference between their products and Airbus ones, as to be seen on the 777 (that was, as you mentioned, the first Boeing aircraft feated with FBW); a little guarded switch, right overhead the captain's seat, enabling the crew to turn off flight protection, and to revert to some king of "direct law" command. I can't imagine this feature isn't the fruit of many times of study of what other manufacturers, like Airbus did with their own FBW products.

-Airbus, from the design of the Airbus 320, the engineers immediately went on an assumption: since most air accidents have a human origin, it was necessary to give maximum powers to the computer by holding the pilot aside, in order to avoid his error... We know now the limits of such a pilosophy...
Since the onboard computers would assume most of the safety of the flight, the Airbus engineers and pilots were uninterested in the man-machine interface, although it had been regarded as an absolute necessity in the design of all preceding aircraft in the world.

This can explain why Boeing didn't rush into the civilian FBW market...

From a pilot's prospective, this is more reassuring...

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: David L
Posted 2013-03-31 13:31:20 and read 2869 times.

If AF's Airbus purchases are due to "pressure" from successive French governments, why do so many airlines in so many other countries have such significant Airbus fleets? The government is entitled to encourage support for local industries and it happens in other countries. There's a difference between "urging" or "persuading" and "applying pressure". What would be the consequences if AF doesn't order what the French government "pressures" them to order?

As for the way Airbus FBW works, as I said in another recent thread, thousands of them have been flown by thousands of pilots for a quarter of a century, just as safely as other comparable types. A very significant number of those pilots like flying them - if it isn't 100% then, so what? It's time to get over it. If you really believe the BEA have falsified accident reports then that's a matter for another thread, even though it's been discussed in great detail many times.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 23):
Quoting airproxx (Reply 20): .... But unfortunately, having flown many aircraft doesn't grant you any ability to "judge" one or another aircraft.
Oh yes it does

Yes, I was a bit surprised by that response.

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: Pihero
Posted 2013-03-31 13:36:36 and read 2876 times.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 15):
There are few airlines in the world with such and extensive experience on A32X operations for sure. Though LH, BA, US Airways and United also spring to mind when talking about large and long serving fleets.

To come back to a hijacked subject :
Air France has used the whole 320 family with some rather extrraordinary models : The A319 "Dedicate" was an extraordinary plane : used as a high-end long-hauler to some quite exotic destinations for the so-called "Petroleum Club".
With one -or two at a time - ACT -, it could reach places as far as Pointe Noire.
Unfortunately for the crews, the development of AFKL long haul network saw them disappear from Eastern Europe, Africa and the Middle East.
The ACTs have been removed, the cabins reconfigured and they're now part of the European Division.

As a pilot's point of view, the type-rating covers all models . There is basically no difference flying a 319 or a 320 .
One would always know one was on a 321 which has a definite greater inertia than the 320 , or an A318 which is twitchy in turbulence. But before takeoff, the briefing would always start with :"We are on a.... to remind us that there are a few differences we should keep in mind : the 321 restricted geometry at takeoff, its fuel system...

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: Azure
Posted 2013-03-31 14:19:53 and read 2810 times.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 17):
>Asking for a link? Here it is: (Pihero's gonna be happy this time): From French financial newspaper "Les Echos" (not the usual dirty tabloid) :
http://www.lesechos.fr/09/06/2011/Le...0.htm

Thanks for the link. But if you quote the reputable "Les Echos", then quote it adequately : "However, it is doubtful that such a threat [the MP's petition] be effective. With only 15.7% of the capital and 3 administrators out of 15, the [French] State has no power [in AF]... The case is even more complicated that it will be the first common order by Air France and KLM. However, the two companies do not have the same needs. KLM operates aircraft with less than 300 seats, the maximum capacity of the 787, while the Air France fleet is rather around 350 seats, the maximum capacity of the A350...In the end, Air France-KLM is likely to make a split order between the A350 and the B787, the Airbus for Air France, and the 787 for KLM. A distribution which has the advantage of better matching the needs of both companies, while leaving aside national interests."
Things can't be clearer, right ? The pressure that 50 members of the French parliament (out of 550 members or so) tried to exercice on AF was hopeless anyway...
And as Pihero stated, look at the current situation : 25 firm orders + 25 options for the 787, and 0 order and 0 option for the A350 at today's date ! Now talk about a successful pressure on AF...


Quoting RayChuang (Reply 19):
the A320, which became a huge best-seller, especially when the orders from United, America West, and Northwest ensured its worldwide success.

The success of the A320 would be due only to the orders of US airlines ? Funny ! The top 10 operators today are :
- US Airways : 237
- Easyjet : 213
- China Southern : 187
- China Eastern : 173
- United : 152
- Lufthansa : 146
- Air France : 144
- TAM : 132
- Jetblue : 127
- Delta : 126
4 american, 3 european, 2 asian, 1 south american...

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-03-31 15:09:40 and read 2731 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 26):
The success of the A320 would be due only to the orders of US airlines

He isn't referring to today, but rather 1988-1991. HP, NW and (the icing the cake) UA orders established the A320 as a "legitimate" aircraft, both in the USA and around the world.

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-03-31 17:15:15 and read 2617 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 26):
And as Pihero stated, look at the current situation : 25 firm orders + 25 options for the 787, and 0 order and 0 option for the A350 at today's date ! Now talk about a successful pressure on AF...

And I'm glad with it. We woud be living in Soviet Union otherwise. But still, these pressures shouldn't exist, and if today the result is arguable, I doubt AF/KL will neglect an A350 order, and I can't help but thinking that this is the result of political influence. Time will tell you'll say...

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: SA7700
Posted 2013-03-31 18:05:21 and read 2526 times.

There are particular users posting in this thread, that choose to resort to personal insults and attacks. This stops immediately or you run the risk of this thread to be shut down. Please debate the topic and not other users.

Thanks for your co-operation.


SA7700

Topic: RE: Air France A320: 25 Years.
Username: TheSultanOfWing
Posted 2013-03-31 19:40:58 and read 2473 times.

I thought the Airbus A320 crash at the Mulhouse-Habsheim airfield was pretty mind boggling, especially since this pilot still seems to think he is kind of innocent (?!!) until this very day, but otherwise Airbus and AF have done a great job in developing this grafting people-hauler.
My favorite Narrow-body; although the other week I happened to jump on a brand spanking Sky Interior B738 which was pretty nice too!

Resurrect the A318 is what I say, use something called NEO......though production is pretty much stopped and smaller planes run rings around it.....yes yes, I know! Alas!


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