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Topic: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-03-24 05:59:44 and read 23470 times.

BAs first few 787s will feature on routes to YYC, YYZ, IAD and EWR.

Although dates are as yet to be confirmed as a result of the current issues, it would appear the temporary schedule is loaded into the system for initial flights from July 16th.

I'm not sure if any of these flights are loaded into the reservations systems as of yet but the info is currently available internally.

Hopefully we will be hearing more in the next few weeks regarding actual launch dates once the battery issue is sorted out!

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: N62NA
Posted 2013-03-24 07:02:44 and read 23230 times.

I suspected EWR would be on the list - the 3x777 seemed like too much for EWR to support and BA has been flying the 763 into EWR the past few years as demand continued to drop, while they continued focusing on JFK.

In fact, looking at the July 30 BA schedule, they're down to just 2x777 (no 787 showing up there yet).

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: KaiTak747
Posted 2013-03-24 14:03:06 and read 21861 times.

Quoting tonystan (Thread starter):
BAs first few 787s will feature on routes to YYC, YYZ, IAD and EWR.

I find YYZ, IAD and EWR surprising.

BA's 787s will not have first class, so by serving these destinations with the 787 the cities will lose first class. I would have thought that the 787s will primarily be replacing 767 routes that do not have the demand for first class, such as Baltimore, Calgary and destinations in Africa.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: planiac787
Posted 2013-03-24 14:28:22 and read 21362 times.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 2):
I find YYZ, IAD and EWR surprising.

BA's 787s will not have first class, so by serving these destinations with the 787 the cities will lose first class. I would have thought that the 787s will primarily be replacing 767 routes that do not have the demand for first class, such as Baltimore, Calgary and destinations in Africa.

With the 787 saving BA fuel I think its a good thing they plan to start with these high yielding routes. Because of the High PAX load and less fuel consumption they can make more money on these routes when compared to the 777 or the heavily fuel consuming 747... They should do a combination of 787 and 777 on these routes..Since there are already multiple 777's deployed on this route they reduce the 777 use and deploy the 787 to cut costs and make money.

Cheers

Pradat

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-03-24 14:36:16 and read 21175 times.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 2):
I find YYZ, IAD and EWR surprising.

BA's 787s will not have first class, so by serving these destinations with the 787 the cities will lose first class.

BA has 2 daily flights to Toronto. The first flight is a 772 and the second flight is a 763 without first class so why should the 787 be a problem, assuming it replaces the 763? Toronto is not a major F class market.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: sunrisevalley
Posted 2013-03-24 14:37:02 and read 21175 times.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 2):
I find YYZ, IAD and EWR surprising.

BA's 787s will not have first class

I think this subject came up before. I have flown BA out of YYZ a few times on 763's , they do not offer first class.

I believe one of the factors that was discussed and would favor a 788 on a city pair is cargo demand. YYZ is such a city.

With only 214 seats , after baggage , there is space for about 16t of cargo based on typical belly cargo density.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: Alsatian
Posted 2013-03-24 14:53:16 and read 20856 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
BA has 2 daily flights to Toronto. The first flight is a 772 and the second flight is a 763 without first class so why should the 787 be a problem, assuming it replaces the 763? Toronto is not a major F class market.

This summer :

BA 93 LHR 1215 - 1520 YYZ 1234567 767
BA 97 LHR 1400 - 1710 YYZ 1---5-7 777
BA 99 LHR 1620 - 1855 YYZ 1234567 744

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: YYCSpotter
Posted 2013-03-24 15:20:10 and read 20371 times.

I am not surprised that BA is utulizing YYC for their 787s. The flights deaprting YYC are almost always full, or almost full. How much of a capacity increase is there from the 763 to the 788?

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-03-24 15:36:11 and read 20136 times.

CURRENT LONG HAUL 763 C24W24Y144

FUTURE 788 CONFIG C35W25Y154

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: N62NA
Posted 2013-03-24 15:44:42 and read 19978 times.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 2):
I find YYZ, IAD and EWR surprising.

BA's 787s will not have first class, so by serving these destinations with the 787 the cities will lose first class

BA is the only airline currently offering First Class on EWR-LHR. Their competition (UA and VS) do not offer First Class.

In addition, BA frequently uses the 763 on one of its EWR-LHR flights and that aircraft does not have First Class either.

EWR doesn't deserve First Class - JFK does.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: B747forever
Posted 2013-03-24 15:53:37 and read 19821 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 9):
EWR doesn't deserve First Class - JFK does.

Care to elaborate?

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 8):

So all markets will see an increase of 10J seats. That is quite a lot.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: N62NA
Posted 2013-03-24 15:58:44 and read 19718 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 10):
Quoting N62NA (Reply 9):
EWR doesn't deserve First Class - JFK does.

Care to elaborate?

Sure.

The primary airline at EWR for many years (CO) did not offer First Class on EWR-LHR. The current primary airline at EWR (UA) continues to not offer First Class on EWR-LHR, though they have added First Class on a few other EWR-Europe routes.

The primary airline at EWR has determined that First Class is not required on EWR-LHR. They have also determined that narrowbody aircraft on all but one of their flights on EWR-LHR are adequate.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2013-03-24 16:21:09 and read 19410 times.

Quoting planiac787 (Reply 3):
With the 787 saving BA fuel I think its a good thing they plan to start with these high yielding routes.

With the 787 having markedly better fuel economy thatn the 763, I would expect it to go on to the longer routes first, thus saving the most fuel possible.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 11):
The primary airline at EWR has determined that First Class is not required on EWR-LHR. They have also determined that narrowbody aircraft on all but one of their flights on EWR-LHR are adequate.

Just because CO determine that EWR - LHR should be a single aisle aircraft with no F, means that they not only have a relatively low passenger demand, but also that their passengers won't pay for F. Meanwhile its up to BA to make their own analysis.
Different airlines look at things in different ways, one example being that BA see a good demand for F ex LHR with most of their LHR long haul fleet featuring F, whilst VS see no viable demand for F at all.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: N62NA
Posted 2013-03-24 16:31:12 and read 19280 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 12):
Just because CO determine that EWR - LHR should be a single aisle aircraft with no F, means that they not only have a relatively low passenger demand, but also that their passengers won't pay for F. Meanwhile its up to BA to make their own analysis.

BA already has. They've operated the 763 on EWR-LHR quite often.

It is a bit odd that the airport serving the half of the population (roughly) of the NYC area that is west of the Hudson river doesn't have very much demand for First Class on EWR-LHR, when the other airport serving the population east of the Hudson river has a huge amount of First Class seats available.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: falkerker
Posted 2013-03-24 16:52:24 and read 18986 times.

Will BA use the frames that will be replaced by the 787 to open new routes or will they add capacity to high demand routes?

I'd love to see BA back in BOG

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: transaeroyyz
Posted 2013-03-24 17:39:38 and read 18455 times.

Will YYZ be the most 787 diverse, Ethiopian, LOT, BA, AC, in the future Aeroflot, Transaero, JetAirways, Korean, AirFrance/KLM possibilities maybe only NY having more..

[Edited 2013-03-24 17:48:08]

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-03-24 18:58:08 and read 17717 times.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 2):
I find YYZ, IAD and EWR surprising.

BA's 787s will not have first class, so by serving these destinations with the 787 the cities will lose first class. I would have thought that the 787s will primarily be replacing 767 routes that do not have the demand for first class, such as Baltimore, Calgary and destinations in Africa.

= Canada overall is a rather low yielding market. Before someone goes on some patriotic rampage, check the amount of airline that does not fly FCL to Canada. Or better yet, look at AC  .

Good choices with the 787. Only IAD is surprising to me. Losing the WB/IMF type exclusive contract must not have been good.

Saludos,
Alex

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: ely747
Posted 2013-03-24 19:49:43 and read 17241 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 12):
With the 787 having markedly better fuel economy thatn the 763, I would expect it to go on to the longer routes first, thus saving the most fuel possible



Is it no because in the beginning BA will only have a few 787 available, both EWR and Posted 2013-03-24 19:58:36 and read 17144 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 12):
With the 787 having markedly better fuel economy thatn the 763, I would expect it to go on to the longer routes first, thus saving the most fuel possible.

Is it not because in the beginning BA will only have a limited number of 787 available and both EWR and YYZ can be served by one frame per day wheres going longer routes would require two for a return trip
?

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: threepoint
Posted 2013-03-24 20:25:57 and read 16933 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 16):
Canada overall is a rather low yielding market. Before someone goes on some patriotic rampage, check the amount of airline that does not fly FCL to Canada. Or better yet, look at AC

Nice comment, but a bit unnecessary. Nobody questioned the BA decisions (one person, not Canadian, mused about Toronto in reply 2) and I didn't get a sniff of "patriotic rampage" when reading these posts.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: blrsea
Posted 2013-03-24 20:51:04 and read 16757 times.

Any plans to send these to Indian cities?

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: TheAviator380
Posted 2013-03-24 23:16:20 and read 15864 times.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 20):

India is good yield market for BA (I know there is lot of competition on this route but still BA doing well). BOM and DEL has got good connectivity for pax traveling to US which includes first class which 787 wouldn't have so I doubt BOM or DEL will get 787 immediately. To me LHR-BLR would be better to begin with.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-03-25 01:50:17 and read 14600 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 13):
They've operated the 763 on EWR-LHR quite often.

Yes but only on the third flight of the day. The other two are both four class 777s.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 13):
half of the population (roughly) of the NYC area that is west of the Hudson river doesn't have very much demand for First Class on EWR-LHR

It's not that simple, and you know it is. For a start, a lot of the passengers that BA carry up front are inbound, LON originating. Needless to say most of those would go to JFK if their business was in Manhattan.

That NJ sees less premium demand than Manhattan is hardly ground breaking news, but that doesn't mean that there isn't any at all. Start with the pharmas along the turnpike...

Quoting ely747 (Reply 18):
both EWR and YYZ can be served by one frame per day

That's a good point, but I would that if that was the criterion then I would have thought that BWI, say, would be higher up the list.

To turn the "no F" argument on its head, maybe it is because EWR and YYZ are somewhat premium markets, and they want to offer the latest generation J   

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: thenoflyzone
Posted 2013-03-25 04:53:27 and read 13012 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 16):
Canada overall is a rather low yielding market.

Take it easy there ! You just said a whole lotta' beef, without much bone to back it up !.....

First class is a dying breed, and this is happening worldwide, not just in Canada. The gap between Business class and First has narrowed in recent years, and people (along with companies) no longer feel the need to pay the premium for F class. Pure and simple. It has nothing to do with low yields to Canada. (which, in itself, is a false statement !)

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2013-03-25 04:59:06]

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: mastermis
Posted 2013-03-25 04:59:07 and read 12946 times.

I sure hope we see the 787 on the LHR-NAS-GCM route (currently a 767)

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-03-25 05:24:51 and read 12977 times.

The reason the "primary airline at Newark" fails to offer F to London was that historically they didn't have a product to offer!!!!

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: blrsea
Posted 2013-03-25 11:12:27 and read 12129 times.

Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 21):
To me LHR-BLR would be better to begin with.

Yup, I agree. I feel 787-9 will be a good fit on this role. on the few times that I have flown this route, I observed that it has decent J loads, and not much F loads, with Y getting filled up seasonally. It is a 744 right now, which I feel is a overkill for this route.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-03-25 11:30:33 and read 12252 times.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 26):
Yup, I agree. I feel 787-9 will be a good fit on this role. on the few times that I have flown this route, I observed that it has decent J loads, and not much F loads, with Y getting filled up seasonally. It is a 744 right now, which I feel is a overkill for this route.

And no one can give even a best guesstimate as to when the B789 will be available !

At the current rate the A359 will be in service well before hand !

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: blrsea
Posted 2013-03-25 13:40:52 and read 12012 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 27):
And no one can give even a best guesstimate as to when the B789 will be available !

I am optimistic that 789 might be in service close to 359.   788 might be a bit short on capacity for LHR-BLR.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: usairways85
Posted 2013-03-25 13:44:06 and read 12004 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 1):
In fact, looking at the July 30 BA schedule, they're down to just 2x777 (no 787 showing up there yet).

Yes, BA is dropping EWR to 2x daily.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: N62NA
Posted 2013-03-25 16:47:53 and read 11682 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 22):
Quoting N62NA (Reply 13):
They've operated the 763 on EWR-LHR quite often.

Yes but only on the third flight of the day. The other two are both four class 777s.

And many times they can't even get enough demand to run the third flight.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 22):

That NJ sees less premium demand than Manhattan is hardly ground breaking news, but that doesn't mean that there isn't any at all. Start with the pharmas along the turnpike...

I'm keeping my comments on EWR-LHR in this topic. Certainly there are some European airlines that serve EWR and do offer First Class.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 25):
The reason the "primary airline at Newark" fails to offer F to London was that historically they didn't have a product to offer!!!!

Because... the "primary airline at Newark" made the decision not to equip their aircraft with First Class.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-03-25 18:10:38 and read 11561 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 30):
And many times they can't even get enough demand to run the third flight.

You'll have to excuse my 'limited' experience of operating said flights to EWR on all the various aircraft they operate (including those with First) but EWR in my opinion has always been pretty successful with good loads. I honestly have no idea of actual yield achieved but none the less its been one of those trips I assume will be chockers on ALL cabins until I turn up on the day and discover differently!!!!

Remember BA operate a a significant network east of LHR and a large percentage of passengers on the EWR are often connecting from elsewhere to EWR. This helps fill all the premium cabins also making First I'm sure popular certain flights!

Very unfair to claim EWR doesn't 'deserve' First!

[Edited 2013-03-25 18:18:01]

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-03-25 19:00:04 and read 11508 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 30):
many times they can't even get enough demand to run the third flight.

I agree. The third flight is an oddball. EWR/northern NJ is CO/UA territory, so BA will have little draw in the region, especially for corporate. Therefore a lot of their passengers are LON originating rather than EWR. Indeed, and I know this is meaningless, the three times that I've flown BA LHR-EWR I don't think I've heard a single American accent.

This comes back to the NJ v NY thing. Most people heading to NYC would go to JFK, those heading to EWR (presumably) want to go to Newark/NJ. I'm not sure that there are many people in the UK who want to go to New Jersey!

Quoting N62NA (Reply 30):
Certainly there are some European airlines that serve EWR and do offer First Class.

Yes, including BA.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: kiramakora
Posted 2013-03-25 21:02:43 and read 11398 times.

Canadian patriots are amusing. No wonder respected members stay away. Haha. Look at the gateways.

YVR - Does not get Asia's most premium airlines - NH or SQ. One of the last markets to see CX re-config. Indian carriers say no. KE sends old configuration. LH

YYC - BA sends a old 767. LH pulled out saying lack of premium yields.

YYZ - AF sends leisure product on many days. AY sends their 757. KE sends old configuration. Even EY sends 2 class aircraft.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: ykaops
Posted 2013-03-25 21:15:43 and read 11355 times.

Any longhaul carrier operating into YYZ will be operating the 788! They have to save costs somehow on the astronomical fees the GTAA charges .. It is afterall, if not the most expensive airport in the world to operate into, its a close 2nd!      

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-03-25 21:49:18 and read 11313 times.

Quoting kiramakora (Reply 33):
YYC - BA sends a old 767. LH pulled out saying lack of premium yields.

In fairness to BA they did launch the route with a 777 but alas it just didn't pull in its weight so they downsized to a more economical alternative. Now they are upsizing it to a far more superior product as there is clearly a market for it!

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: Speedbird2155
Posted 2013-03-25 23:37:33 and read 11218 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 32):
I agree. The third flight is an oddball. EWR/northern NJ is CO/UA territory, so BA will have little draw in the region, especially for corporate. Therefore a lot of their passengers are LON originating rather than EWR. Indeed, and I know this is meaningless, the three times that I've flown BA LHR-EWR I don't think I've heard a single American accent.

Flying the route 3 times doesn't mean that you know the passenger profile or how successful the route is. Indeed, you could not possibly have heard every person on those flights speak so that is no proof of the passenger profile. EWR is a very successful and strategic city for BA. Indeed, BA recently invested heavily in the lounge product at EWR.

Also, with regards to the number of flight and aircraft type used, BA will often vary aircraft and number of flights on certain routes to match the demand. This also happens at JFK where some flights are switched between 777 and 747. LAX sees a variation in the number of flights at different times of the year, same for CPT. Across the network this happens. That does not mean that these routes are any less important.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-03-26 00:36:14 and read 11106 times.

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 36):
ou could not possibly have heard every person on those flights speak

I am well aware of that, which is why I said "I know this means nothing". It was just noticeable to me, compared with BA to MIA or SFO (the other two routes BA US routes I've flown)

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 36):
EWR is a very successful and strategic city for BA

I don't dispute that, and that post should be read in conjunction with #22 when I disagree with N62NA about the importance of EWR both as an airport and the important business community (esp pharmaceuticals) in NJ.

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 36):
recently invested heavily in the lounge product at EWR.

I didn't know that, it's good to know.

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 36):
with regards to the number of flight and aircraft type used, BA will often vary aircraft and number of flights on certain routes to match the demand

Again, I'm disagreeing but from what I've heard the 3rd flight does experience softer demand than the other two.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-03-26 00:53:50 and read 11081 times.

I can only assume that Doha and Bahrain will also see a 787 shortly.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2013-03-26 03:40:54 and read 10902 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 31):
You'll have to excuse my 'limited' experience of operating said flights to EWR on all the various aircraft they operate (including those with First) but EWR in my opinion has always been pretty successful with good loads. I honestly have no idea of actual yield achieved but none the less its been one of those trips I assume will be chockers on ALL cabins until I turn up on the day and discover differently!!!!

Remember BA operate a a significant network east of LHR and a large percentage of passengers on the EWR are often connecting from elsewhere to EWR. This helps fill all the premium cabins also making First I'm sure popular certain flights!

I always get the impression that EWR is to New York what LGW is to London for BA., i.e. a fairly low yielding port which serves as a useful channel for Avios spending.

Often when I've tried a J redemption to New York, JFK is often zeroed out and the only option is EWR.

That alone could be reason enough to maintain a EWR operation.

Rgds

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-03-26 05:24:08 and read 10723 times.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 39):

Sounds like a very inefficient way to maintain a route!
I don't think BA are as fond as Exec Club and Avios any more than they are to excessive spends in at other form of marketing, it's merely a necessary evil!

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2013-03-26 06:12:30 and read 10639 times.

Quoting tonystan (Reply 40):
Sounds like a very inefficient way to maintain a route!

If it keeps prices and yields up on JFK, it might be a shrewd idea I guess, which might make it....

  

Quoting tonystan (Reply 40):
it's merely a necessary evil!

   Agreed 

Rgds

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: scrappy27
Posted 2013-03-26 06:17:10 and read 10624 times.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 39):

I can only assume that Doha and Bahrain will also see a 787 shortly.

Don't be so sure on that one.... F loads can be very good on that route!, hence being using the 17F seat config 777's.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: ACT7
Posted 2013-03-26 07:33:17 and read 10535 times.

Quoting kiramakora (Reply 33):
Canadian patriots are amusing. No wonder respected members stay away. Haha. Look at the gateways.

YVR - Does not get Asia's most premium airlines - NH or SQ. One of the last markets to see CX re-config. Indian carriers say no. KE sends old configuration. LH

YYC - BA sends a old 767. LH pulled out saying lack of premium yields.

YYZ - AF sends leisure product on many days. AY sends their 757. KE sends old configuration. Even EY sends 2 class aircraft.

No more amusing than any other country's "patriots". Do you have a source for your "leisure product" comments?

As has been mentioned, first class is a dying breed and many airlines are moving towards hybrid models of , economy, premium economy and J class configurations, a la AC. Your analysis of Canada's hubs is also interesting considering EK, 9W, TK to name a few all fly their premium products to YYZ, and soon Egyptair, Aeroflot, and Saudi will be doing the same.

KE is looking to upgauge YVR to their A380 as well.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: BlueShamu330s
Posted 2013-03-26 08:24:36 and read 10441 times.

Quoting scrappy27 (Reply 42):
Don't be so sure on that one.... F loads can be very good on that route!, hence being using the 17F seat config 777's.

You quoted the wrong person.

Rgds

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-03-26 08:34:30 and read 10417 times.

Quoting scrappy27 (Reply 42):
Don't be so sure on that one.... F loads can be very good on that route!, hence being using the 17F seat config 777's.

I think it's a 767 at present.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: AADC10
Posted 2013-03-26 10:22:28 and read 10281 times.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 2):
I find YYZ, IAD and EWR surprising.

BA's 787s will not have first class, so by serving these destinations with the 787 the cities will lose first class.

I think most passengers do not realize how awful the 787 is to fly in. They only hear the hype and do not realize that an old hat 772 is more comfortable, at least until they convert them to 10 abreast. Passengers may even pay extra to take a 787 instead of a 777 initially.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: N62NA
Posted 2013-03-26 10:39:33 and read 10228 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 37):

I don't dispute that, and that post should be read in conjunction with #22 when I disagree with N62NA about the importance of EWR both as an airport and the important business community (esp pharmaceuticals) in NJ.

To clarify: I'm happy that at least BA offers F on EWR-LHR. At least somebody does!

What is interesting is that if EWR were of the same "stature" as JFK, BA would never offer a flight that doesn't have F. That's the crux of my point.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: flyyul
Posted 2013-03-26 10:40:58 and read 10213 times.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 43):
No more amusing than any other country's "patriots". Do you have a source for your "leisure product" comments?

As has been mentioned, first class is a dying breed and many airlines are moving towards hybrid models of , economy, premium economy and J class configurations, a la AC. Your analysis of Canada's hubs is also interesting considering EK, 9W, TK to name a few all fly their premium products to YYZ, and soon Egyptair, Aeroflot, and Saudi will be doing the same.

KE is looking to upgauge YVR to their A380 as well.

It's very true. Canada is a good business class but not a very good F class market.

BA sends non-F aircraft to YYC/YUL/YYZ
LH sends non-F to YVR/YYZ in the winter
AF no more F cls to Canada (incl YUL)
CX sends 2 cls airplane to YYZ/YVR (no F)

You will often hear carriers like LH/LX complain about the lack of F demand in Canada

Canada is not a country with a large number of ultra-wealthy that can buy these types of fare

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: scrappy27
Posted 2013-03-26 13:22:50 and read 9940 times.

Apologies Blue Shamu....

and BestWestern it defintely isn't on the 767 at present. Its 777.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: GSTBA
Posted 2013-03-26 13:30:05 and read 9964 times.

Quoting Alsatian (Reply 6):
This summer :

BA 93 LHR 1215 - 1520 YYZ 1234567 767
BA 97 LHR 1400 - 1710 YYZ 1---5-7 777
BA 99 LHR 1620 - 1855 YYZ 1234567 744

This info is not correct BA's summer YYZ schedule has been for some time showing as:

BA 93 LHR 1215 - 1520 YYZ 767 D
BA 97 LHR 1400 - 1710 YYZ 767 15
BA 97 LHR 1405 - 1710 YYZ 767 7
BA 99 LHR 1620 - 1855 YYZ 744 D

BA 92 YYZ 1855 - 0705+1 LHR 767 D
BA 98 YYZ 2055 - 0850+1 LHR 747 x1
BA 98 YYZ 2120 - 0915+1 LHR 747 1
BA 96 YYZ 2245 - 1100+1 LHR 767 15
BA 96 YYZ 2255 - 1115+1 LHR 767 7

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-03-26 14:52:08 and read 9776 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 47):
What is interesting is that if EWR were of the same "stature" as JFK, BA would never offer a flight that doesn't have F. That's the crux of my point.

In which case we are agreed  

Sorry, for singling you out

To conclude this little episode, I believe that EWR is a distinct and valuable station. It is, however, no JFK.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: N62NA
Posted 2013-03-26 15:33:46 and read 9710 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 51):
In which case we are agreed

Sorry, for singling you out

To conclude this little episode, I believe that EWR is a distinct and valuable station. It is, however, no JFK.

Glad we came to an agreement!  

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: YTZ
Posted 2013-03-26 15:40:44 and read 9700 times.

Quoting kiramakora (Reply 33):
Canadian patriots are amusing. No wonder respected members stay away. Haha. Look at the gateways.

I flagged your post, simply for the taunting tone. You could have easily made your point without the flamebait.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: YTZ
Posted 2013-03-26 16:03:51 and read 9631 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 48):
Canada is not a country with a large number of ultra-wealthy that can buy these types of fare.

This. Companies pay for J travel. I don't know a single person who is entitled to F at work. Which means most F is out-of-pocket. And I would think virtually anybody who can pay for that probably has a 8 figure net worth.

Being military, as far as government rules are concerned you have to be at the very top (Colonel or above usually) to be entitled to J. Or your trip has to be over 8 hours of flying time or total travel is more than 12 hours. But the reality is that most senior officers I know don't even fly J when entitled so that they don't blow the unit's travel budget on themselves. Usually cheaper to book in a day or night stopover somewhere. For example, when travelling from Ottawa to Canberra for a meeting, it's common to spend a night in Hawaii. The night's hotel charges, per diems, and lost productivity is still cheaper than a J ticket.

I know the private sector was more generous for the longest time. But I know that since the recession hit that was one of the first perks to go. And it doesn't look likes it's coming back. I think Y+ will be the new choice of business travelers everywhere.

If only we had the same number of Russians and Arabs stashing money in London we might just have more F service......Alas Toronto will never be on par....and we probably should be grateful for that!

By and large though, I just don't see the point of F when you can get a lie-flat in J. Then again, I don't have moolah to spend $10k to upgrade from a lie-flat to a slightly better lie-flat and some champagne. So maybe I'm missing the point.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-03-26 16:41:14 and read 9513 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 54):
when travelling from Ottawa to Canberra for a meeting, it's common to spend a night in Hawaii. The night's hotel charges, per diems, and lost productivity is still cheaper than a J ticket.

That makes a lot of sense, as it would be two daylight flights arriving in CBR in the evening allowing a nights sleep before a morning meeting. If you fly overnight from YVR or LAX you would arrive in CBR at about 9am. You don't sleep that well, even in J!

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-03-26 17:07:00 and read 9466 times.

Quoting kiramakora (Reply 33):
YVR - Does not get Asia's most premium airlines - NH or SQ.

SQ did serve YVR for years, but their problem is that Canda-SIN is a very small O&D market and SIN is not well-located to serve as a hub for traffic to/from North America except for even smaller markets like Indonesia and Malaysia. It's too far south. As a result most traffic on SQ flights to YVR was very low yield 5th freedom traffic YVR-ICN-YVR.

Canada-Japan also isn't a big enough market to warrant 3 nonstop carriers.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-03-26 17:22:27 and read 9441 times.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 43):
Your analysis of Canada's hubs is also interesting considering EK, 9W, TK to name a few all fly their premium products to YYZ, and soon Egyptair, Aeroflot, and Saudi will be doing the same.

= Yet, EY does not send their premium F product to YYZ - unlike say JFK where there is FCL.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 48):
It's very true. Canada is a good business class but not a very good F class market.

= Absolutely. And, I think the best evidence comes from AC and their being a 2 (now Y+) model. If the home carrier which arguably knows the market the best doesn't think there is FCL demand, then there is not. Moreover, I'd argue that there is a decent part of AC's JCL being made up or NRSA/upgrades/redemption/6th freedom US traffic ...

Quoting YTZ (Reply 54):
If only we had the same number of Russians and Arabs stashing money in London we might just have more F service......Alas Toronto will never be on par....and we probably should be grateful for that!

By and large though, I just don't see the point of F when you can get a lie-flat in J. Then again, I don't have moolah to spend $10k to upgrade from a lie-flat to a slightly better lie-flat and some champagne. So maybe I'm missing the point.

= That is your view point. There are plenty of countries out there that warrants FCL travel. You might be OK with JCL, but if an airline can create an unique FCL demand, and there is market for it (in Canada, there is not), what's the issue?

Quoting YTZ (Reply 53):
I flagged your post, simply for the taunting tone. You could have easily made your point without the flamebait.

= I do not think it was any less taunting than your comment about Russians and Arabs stashing money.

Saludos,
Alex

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-03-26 17:24:51 and read 9455 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 56):
SQ did serve YVR for years, but their problem is that Canda-SIN is a very small O&D market and SIN is not well-located to serve as a hub for traffic to/from North America except for even smaller markets like Indonesia and Malaysia. It's too far south. As a result most traffic on SQ flights to YVR was very low yield 5th freedom traffic YVR-ICN-YVR.

= YVR was VERY weak for SQ due to the lack of premium demand. Keep in mind SQ also served it when the Gulf carriers were weak and they could have leveraged their ISC network as well. But again, YVR demand (like overall Canada) is just not there for enough premium.

It is the perfect market for Scoot however ...

Saludos,
Alex

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-03-26 18:04:41 and read 9376 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 57):
Quoting flyyul (Reply 48):
It's very true. Canada is a good business class but not a very good F class market.

= Absolutely. And, I think the best evidence comes from AC and their being a 2 (now Y+) model. If the home carrier which arguably knows the market the best doesn't think there is FCL demand, then there is not.

CP was the first Canadian international carrier to drop F class and replacit with a very high quality J class prodict which actually used the same seats that were once used for F class (prior to introducing reclining sleeper seats). CP's action forced AC to do the same not long after.

I remember KLM (which still offered F class then) complaining that CP's new J product was too good to be offered at the same fare as KLM's business class product at the time (in those days the bilateral required that CP and KL agree on fares between Canada and the Netherlands).

KLM also complained about CP calling their new longhaul J produce "Royal Canadian Class", since KLM had used "Royal Class" as their brand for F class for many years. If memory correct it wasn't long after that KLM became one of the first major European carriers to drop F class.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: ACT7
Posted 2013-03-26 20:00:30 and read 9282 times.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 48):
Canada is not a country with a large number of ultra-wealthy that can buy these types of fare

I disagree - there was a report yesterday that placed Canada 8th in the world with the highest number of individuals with a net worth of over $30 million. So you're wrong on that one. Canadians may be more subtle than others (which was part of a commentary regarding that report) so that may be why there is less F demand.

But I agree with what was said about F class not being relevant when J class on several airlines already resembles F class, with lie flats, etc. There's no difference.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: GSTBA
Posted 2013-03-26 20:23:39 and read 9286 times.

Quoting falkerker (Reply 14):
Will BA use the frames that will be replaced by the 787 to open new routes or will they add capacity to high demand routes?

The 788's are planned to replace the 767 fleet. BA currently operate 14 longhaul configured 767's. Over the next two years this number is set to drop to just 7.

BA are still hoping to take delivery of there first 4 788's this year. Although no official announcement has yet been made, the first 4 routes were expected to be EWR, IAD, YYC and YYZ.

BA plan to take delivery of it's second batch of 788's between mid 2014 and late 2014. Two of the new aircraft are expected to be used to operate routes currently operated by the 767. The other two aircraft are expected to be used to launch two new routes which are to be launched in late Sep or Oct 2014.

The two new routes are currently being evaluated but I have heard from someone close to the project that that KUL, SGN and SCL are three of the destinations currently being looked at.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: VV701
Posted 2013-03-27 02:13:36 and read 9047 times.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 43):
As has been mentioned, first class is a dying breed and many airlines are moving towards hybrid models of , economy, premium economy and J class configurations, a la AC.


If F Class is a dying breed then someone ought to tell the other airlines. Look at ALL the current and near future 380 operators, None are going down the AC route. All of them, AF, BA, LH, QF, SQ, TG and even EK have or will install an F Cabin in their 380s. Some are even going to the additional expense of installing F Suites further developing the m arket by tempting passengers who might otherwise have used a Biz Jet.

So do not write an F Class obituary too soon.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2013-03-27 03:57:04 and read 8932 times.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 43):
As has been mentioned, first class is a dying breed and many airlines are moving towards hybrid models of , economy, premium economy and J class configurations, a la AC

J will always be too mass market for many high profile celebrity passengers. A typical F section with 12 or so passengers gives them the reasurance that they will not be bothered during the flight. A J section with 40 or more seats can put them close to their fans demanding autographs etc.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: YTZ
Posted 2013-03-27 07:20:25 and read 8706 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 62):
If F Class is a dying breed then someone ought to tell the other airlines. Look at ALL the current and near future 380 operators, None are going down the AC route. All of them, AF, BA, LH, QF, SQ, TG and even EK have or will install an F Cabin in their 380s.

I often wonder if that's more a function of having A380s with all that space.

I can see a future where F will largely be restricted to flights between a handful of cities worldwide (London, Paris, New York, Shanghai, Dubai, Tokyo, and such major global centres) and largely only be an A380/747 occurrence.

Clearly if EWR finds it tough to support F on multiple carriers, I can't imagine there will be all that many F pax to places like ORD or DEN or BWI cities in Canada. You may well see TATL F restricted to LAX-LHR, MIA-LHR and JFK-LHR in the future. I would not be surprised to see that happen.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: sierra3tango
Posted 2013-03-27 08:01:18 and read 8660 times.

Reading on another thread,

FAA Could Limit 787 Range, Etops (by Gonzalo Mar 27 2013 in Civil Aviation)

It could be that ETOPS for the 787 might be limited initially

Might not BA be better utilising them on overland routes to Africa & Asia initially to avoid the issue?

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: VV701
Posted 2013-03-27 09:17:16 and read 8561 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 64):
I often wonder if that's more a function of having A380s with all that space.


Probably not.

For example BA are fitting the same number of F Class seats - fourteen - in their smaller, less spacious 77Ws as they will fit in their more spacious 380s. The difference is that in the 77Ws it is 14 out of a total of 297 seats (4.7 per cent) but on the 380s 14 out of 469 seats (3.0 per cent). In other words the F Class seat density in a BA 77W is more than 1.5 times that in a BA 380.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: YTZ
Posted 2013-03-27 09:41:34 and read 8501 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 66):

I should have been more clear. I didn't just mean the A380. I meant the VLAs in general.

How much F will you see on 787s going forward? (though I'm sure there will be some excepions....I mean as a general rule)

My second thesis was that you'll largely see F restricted to travel between major centres and a very select few other locations. I doubt, for example, you'll see much F to SAN for example.

Combine the two trends. I believe you'll see mostly VLAs flying between major centres. And it'll mostly these aircraft offering F.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: YTZ
Posted 2013-03-27 09:53:12 and read 8478 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 57):
That is your view point. There are plenty of countries out there that warrants FCL travel. You might be OK with JCL, but if an airline can create an unique FCL demand, and there is market for it (in Canada, there is not), what's the issue?

Never said there was. Just said that I personally don't see the point since J is rather luxurious these days and the distinction between F and J today isn't that great.

Remember the discussion started with the idea that F is increasing rare. I don't think that's a particularly out of place concept. F is increasingly rare. Certainly F is less common today than in year's past.

As for Canada, I suspect there are a number of unique trends. Our high air fares, thanks to the protectionist market, probably discourages F to begin with. J fares ex Canada are not all that far from F fares ex USA. Next, I strongly suspect there is at least some cultural aversion in Canada to flying F even for those who have the money. Unlike other developed countries, you are less likely to find wealthier Canadians flaunting their wealth, and flying F may just be viewed as ostentatious. It's my theory anyway. But I do think there maybe legs to it. Just look at Toronto. It survived a banking crisis that did lots of damage to New York and London. But you still won't find hundreds more Ferraris downtown than you did before.

[Edited 2013-03-27 09:54:10]

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: YTZ
Posted 2013-03-27 09:55:21 and read 8493 times.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 65):
Might not BA be better utilising them on overland routes to Africa & Asia initially to avoid the issue?

Why?

BA 787s could get across the North Atlantic with 120 minutes ETOPS.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: sierra3tango
Posted 2013-03-27 10:01:37 and read 8460 times.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 69):
Why?

BA 787s could get across the North Atlantic with 120 minutes ETOPS.

Dunno - from your answer I assume they could- correct?

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-03-27 16:48:59 and read 8171 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 62):
If F Class is a dying breed then someone ought to tell the other airlines. Look at ALL the current and near future 380 operators,

The A380 is a bit of an exception considering it's current "flagship" status. In the longer term I'm sure you will see A380 operators operating them in higher-density configurarions without F class on certain routes where there's little or no F class demand.

It was much the same with the 747. When it first went into service virtually all 747 operators offered F class service. Many eventually dropped it.

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: marco
Posted 2013-03-27 22:48:27 and read 7992 times.

There is still a considerable difference between business class, even the new ones with direct aisle access, and first class with an enclosed suite. Some people value their privacy, prefer better catering than business and can afford it. I don't know why or on what basis those people are labelled ostentatious or showy.

Alot of my friends who are always in first are more down to earth than those that fly business! If Canadians don't want to pay for first (for whatever reasons), that's fine and dandy but the rest of the developping (and developped) world should be able to make that decision without the fear of being judged or labelled!

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-03-28 05:16:36 and read 7786 times.

The hilarious thing is how this thread moved from the launch of a new aircraft to a debate about routes with no first class! To be honest this aircraft on those initial routes is nothing peculiar as BA have operated non-first class configured aircraft on those routes for many years!!!!!

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: ACT7
Posted 2013-03-31 15:08:24 and read 7148 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 62):
If F Class is a dying breed then someone ought to tell the other airlines. Look at ALL the current and near future 380 operators, None are going down the AC route. All of them, AF, BA, LH, QF, SQ, TG and even EK have or will install an F Cabin in their 380s. Some are even going to the additional expense of installing F Suites further developing the m arket by tempting passengers who might otherwise have used a Biz Jet.

So do not write an F Class obituary too soon.

This isn't an article about BA or first class as such but it reinforces the point that F class is a dying breed. Scroll down about half way to see CAPA's report on it...

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...as-new-government-austerity-103059

Topic: RE: Initial BA 787 Routes.
Username: VV701
Posted 2013-04-01 05:28:55 and read 6821 times.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 74):
This isn't an article about BA or first class as such but it reinforces the point that F class is a dying breed.

Not to me. Note the last seven words of this quote from the article:

'that long-haul profits for Chinese airlines are "very difficult". Most long-haul routes %u2013 even from higher-yielding cities like Shanghai %u2013 are loss-making, while they are profitable for international competitors'

So my reading of this article is that CZ is finding competing against the superior First Class Suites of SQ and other new, innovative F Class products like BA's New First difficult. So, as a result of the Chinese government's austerity programme, they are CONSIDERING discontinuing their F Class service rather than upgrading it to make it competitive. I do not see that the article that implies that the F Class Cabins are profitable for CZ's international competitors reinforces "the point that F class is a dying breed'. Indeed to me the article suggests that airlines like SQ and BA - that is CZ's "international competitors" - that have recently invested heavily in their F Class product made the right decision and are winning the battle for premium class passengers.

I certainly would back the route taken by successful international airlines like SQ and BA in preference to that induced by the policies of any country's government, particularly those of a communist government like that of the PRC.


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