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Topic: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: rickabone
Posted 2013-03-23 13:32:44 and read 10069 times.

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-bl...proved#disqus_thread#ixzz2NYFwJDux

Personally I think the TWA FA's were done a severe injustice by APFA and now there is a great opportunity to correct that injustice... You can't fix all of the damage that was done, but you can at least make a few reparations. At this point it shouldn't even be a big deal for APFA as it's such a small percentage of the workforce, and integration of the TWA FA's seniority would hardly have an effect.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: mjzair
Posted 2013-03-23 13:44:32 and read 10043 times.

So, two wrongs make a right is what you are saying... If you go by the tactics used in the previous merger, then in terms of career expectations, AA should be stapled to the bottom of the US list because AA was the carrier in bankruptcy. If it was legal, just and fair in 2001, it should be fair now.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: seatback
Posted 2013-03-23 14:00:47 and read 9969 times.

Quoting mjzair (Reply 1):
If you go by the tactics used in the previous merger, then in terms of career expectations, AA should be stapled to the bottom of the US list because AA was the carrier in bankruptcy. If it was legal, just and fair in 2001, it should be fair now.

The TWA FA weren't stapled to the bottom of the list because they were in bankruptcy, they were stapled because that's how the APFA chose to handle the matter AND as a note, the assets of the company they worked for were acquired by AA.

Even though AA is now in bankruptcy, they're aren't being acquired as was TWA. They are in a true merger scenario.

Big difference.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2013-03-23 14:35:03 and read 9886 times.

A reordering of the list at this point would probably bring legal action from the US FAs, and rightfully so. Arbitration and McCaskill/Bond will determine how it goes in the end.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-03-23 16:12:20 and read 9684 times.

Quoting seatback (Reply 2):
They are in a true merger scenario.

How much cash is US pumping into AA? It's a merger in name only just because there are more tax benefits to a merger rather than a buyout.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-03-23 16:39:33 and read 9605 times.

Federal law prohibits putting one groups seniority under the other. The Missouri senators passed the law on response to what happened to the TWA crews. Any integration will be mutual or the u ions would be kept separate like the previous US merger.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: YYZbound
Posted 2013-03-23 17:18:56 and read 9503 times.

Excuse me....I'm from RenoAir....and WE were also stapled to the bottom of the seniority list....just in case anyone forgot.

And I don't recall anyone feeling terribly sorry for us when we lost our seniority

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-03-23 21:23:00 and read 9170 times.

Yup...one big happy family at the new US Airways...errr...American...there will be.  

Now all we need is people from AirCal, Piedmont, PSA, Lake Central, Mohawk, all wanting to redo things.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-23 21:31:23 and read 9141 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 8):

"Now all we need is people from AirCal, Piedmont, PSA, Lake Central, Mohawk, all wanting to redo things."


With all due respect, why would they want to redo things, didn't they all receive DOH? Oh add Ozark to that list too.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: rickabone
Posted 2013-03-23 22:44:08 and read 9034 times.

Quoting mjzair (Reply 1):
So, two wrongs make a right is what you are saying... If you go by the tactics used in the previous merger, then in terms of career expectations, AA should be stapled to the bottom of the US list because AA was the carrier in bankruptcy. If it was legal, just and fair in 2001, it should be fair now.

I don't see how that's at all what I was saying.... What I'm saying is that this opportunity should be used to reintegrate the few TWA FA's remaining using their original date of hire... I am not arguing that AA FA's should be stapled to the bottom of the seniority list like they did with the TWA FA's, though that would be a form of justice I guess. Either I'm missing your sarcasm or you completely misread my post.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: seatback
Posted 2013-03-24 09:36:11 and read 7642 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 4):
How much cash is US pumping into AA? It's a merger in name only just because there are more tax benefits to a merger rather than a buyout.



It's a stock swap with the original AA shareholders getting more than 70 percent of the new company with LCC shareholders taking the remaining 30 percent.

I don't believe LCC is "pumping" any money in.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: PRAirbus
Posted 2013-03-24 11:00:31 and read 7276 times.

TWA FA's union agreed to that type of seniority integration when AA bought TWA, their union agreed to that...don't forget that part of the equation in return, TWA FA's were granted AA FA's pay of rates and vacation days, etc according to their TWA date of hire; their seniority was intact regarding pay and vacation. In their case, ex-TWA FA's got a substantial raise when they were acquired by AA. I don't think they've a case, their union did that not AA.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-03-24 11:30:55 and read 7155 times.

Quoting seatback (Reply 2):
Even though AA is now in bankruptcy, they're aren't being acquired as was TWA. They are in a true merger scenario.

Big difference.

I must respectfully disagree. DL acquired NW and we MUTUALLY agreed to merge seniority by straight date of hire. The TWA people were done a grave injustice but it is too late now to change that, unfortunately. It was the DL side that approached us and the DL VP of Inflight that said she would not sign off on anything less. It removed a lot of stress and made it much easier to integrate successfully.

The tactics used by APFA were so terrible that Congress passed a law to prevent it from ever happening again. If I had to hazard a guess, the merge of seniority will be straight date of hire. I was totally shocked, as were my colleauges throughout the industry, at the disrespect shown to some incredibly talented senior TWA people. We simply could not bellieve that any flight attendant would do that to another flight attendant. We may wear different uniforms but were are still one professionand we show each other respect. And to this day no one at APFA will even say "Well, maybe we should have done things a little differently."

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-24 11:40:29 and read 7095 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 13):

And to this day no one at APFA will even say "Well, maybe we should have done things a little differently




Thank you DTWPurserBoy, and actually the president of APFA has publicly stated that it was a mistake and that they really messed up.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-03-24 11:41:53 and read 7093 times.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 12):
TWA FA's union agreed to that type of seniority integration when AA bought TWA, their union agreed to that...don't forget that part of the equation in return, TWA FA's were granted AA FA's pay of rates and vacation days, etc according to their TWA date of hire; their seniority was intact regarding pay and vacation. In their case, ex-TWA FA's got a substantial raise when they were acquired by AA. I don't think they've a case, their union did that not AA.

TWA FA's were shown the door when they were acquired. A "substantial raise" only counts if they actually had jobs in which to reap the benefits of said raise. TWA FA's got the shaft from their own union and from the APFA that were all too eager to staple them to the bottom.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: FURUREFA
Posted 2013-03-24 12:56:36 and read 6827 times.

Quoting seatback (Reply 11):
It's a stock swap with the original AA shareholders getting more than 70 percent of the new company with LCC shareholders taking the remaining 30 percent.

Almost. Original AMR shareholders are getting a small piece of the new company (around 3% of the company, I believe). AA's current bondholders/creditors are receiving many shares in the new AA.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: capejet
Posted 2013-03-24 12:57:32 and read 6828 times.

It seems to me the AA/TW integration was done correctly. AA was buying the assets of a failed company (TW). IF you are an AA F/A with 2 years seniority then you have been paying dues to the APFA for 2 years, right? Then the APFA has a legal obligation to make sure your interests are represented. That means placing the TW F/A with 25 years below the AA F/A with 2 years in seniority. Here is why, if there are layoffs (and there were) you cant have the F/A from the failed company keep working, covering the trips of the F/A from AA who has just been laid off. That would only make sense in a true merger. It was unfortunate the TW F/A's got laid off, but they are lucky they had a company to go back to at recall time (AA), unlike the people flying at PanAm (another failed company) who had no one to call them back.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: questions
Posted 2013-03-24 13:09:13 and read 6750 times.

Were other work groups from TWA integrated into AA? If so, how did that work?

Quoting capejet (Reply 17):
unlike the people flying at PanAm

When DL acquired PA's European routes, they did not hire PA FA's?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-24 14:23:39 and read 6595 times.

Not that it matters in the way an integration of workforces should be properly integrated but the fact is that TWA agreed to enter into BK as condition of the acquisition....which does not change the fact that the apfa and its lawyers on more than one occasion have admitted to making a mistake, to wrongdoing considering the integration of the TWA flight attendants. No matter how you look at the merger/acquisition/buyout the fact remains that the "SIA integration" was not, in hindsight successfully decided...hence the fact that it is still an issue 12 years later.
I repeat that apfa and it's lawyers have publicly confessed that they made a mistake in the way they handled the integration. Period.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-03-24 15:17:04 and read 6506 times.

Quoting tothestars (Reply 9):
With all due respect, why would they want to redo things, didn't they all receive DOH? Oh add Ozark to that list too.

With all due respect, I'm sorry you missed the part where I'm highlighting the absurdity in all of this. AA/TW is done. It sucked but it is time to move on.

Quoting seatback (Reply 11):
It's a stock swap with the original AA shareholders getting more than 70 percent of the new company with LCC shareholders taking the remaining 30 percent.

Watch your wording. Original SHAREholders are being wiped out. Existing STAKEholders that have helped to support AMR in Chapter 11 are getting 70% whereas LCC SHAREholders are getting 30%.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-03-24 16:08:44 and read 6411 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 18):
When DL acquired PA's European routes, they did not hire PA FA's?

DL DID take PA FA's. And they kept their original hire dates intact. A former FA friend of mine just retired from DL and she took her Pan Am 1970 seniority date with her.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: Prost
Posted 2013-03-24 16:12:21 and read 6400 times.

I really hope for the sake of all employees at the new AA, their customers, and their shareholders, that the attitudes being expressed on this board never see the light of day on board an aircraft

AA has the potential of being a fierce competitor with an enviable route system. The magic ingredient is employees who strive to serve their customers. I hope old wounds get licked, the scars are remembered, but the employees pull together to do the awesome job they are capable of.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: michman
Posted 2013-03-24 17:09:04 and read 6309 times.

Quoting mjzair (Reply 1):
I must respectfully disagree. DL acquired NW and we MUTUALLY agreed to merge seniority by straight date of hire.

I will disagree with you. DL and NW was a merger, not an acquisition. Was it a merger of equals? No, clearly DL was the larger entity. Nonetheless it was a mutual decision where both parties worked together willingly. Neither DL nor NW were in bankruptcy at the time. Neither was under any financial duress at the time. AA acquired TWA as an asset acquisition while TWA was in bankruptcy. TWA was very unlikely to emerge from their bankruptcy whole. In all likelihood, the alternative would have been an asset liquidation much like Pan Am, Eastern, and Braniff met their final fates. Sorry, but they are completely different scenarios.

[Edited 2013-03-24 17:09:33]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-24 17:47:26 and read 6335 times.

Quoting michman (Reply 24):

" AA acquired TWA as an asset acquisition while TWA was in bankruptcy,"

Wrong. TWA was not in bankruptcy until the AA take over was agreed to.

Excerpt from a letter written by Robert A. Pastore
Former Member, TWA Board of Directors
Former Chairman, TWA Master Executive Council, Air Line Pilots Association.

To
The Honorable Kay Bailey Hutchison
United States Senator

Some of your comments are misleading or lack a factual basis. Please allow my perspective.

You said, in response to Senator Talent?s motion for a Sense-of-the-Senate Amendment,
"I am very sad and very sorry about the situation with the TWA employees. It was a difficult situation when TWA was in bankruptcy. A number of airlines sought to take over TWA. American was the one that was willing to do it."

TWA was not in bankruptcy prior to American?s purchase. The bankruptcy filing by TWA was a condition of the Asset Purchase Agreement as written and proposed by American. Both Boards of Directors accepted the Asset Purchase agreement at about 5p.m. EST on January 9, 2001 and in compliance with the terms and conditions of the Agreement, immediately filed bankruptcy later that evening or early the next morning. One purpose of the bankruptcy filing was to evict Carl Icahn?s onerous Karabu Ticket Agreement. I have attached the Asset Purchase Agreement and call your attention to the Recitals.

At the time of the American purchase, TWA was in the midst of negotiations to merge with America West Airlines. The American deal was not mentioned to the TWA Board until January 9th, 2001 and came as a bit of a surprise, to say the least.

http://www.smilinjack.com/cgi/ultima...ebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000671

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-03-24 18:06:12 and read 6326 times.

Quoting tothestars (Reply 25):
Wrong. TWA was not in bankruptcy until the AA take over was agreed to.

This totally debunks the whole "TWA would have liquidated if AA didn't ride in on a white horse and save their employees from losing whatever they had left" theory, therefore, will quickly be dismissed and ignored as though your post was never made. Ignorance as to the facts about TWA run rampant on this and other boards frequented by armchair airline CEO's.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-03-24 18:34:56 and read 6398 times.

Quoting Prost (Reply 23):

One of the best posts that I have seen. American can be a great company. Fortunately labor laws have changed so what happened to the TWA employees can't happen again. With that said, nothing can be completely fair. Compromise is hard to come by and we saw it with the messy US Airways America West merger. Seniority integration did not work well then and the compromise has effected customers.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-03-24 18:46:38 and read 6358 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 13):
I must respectfully disagree. DL acquired NW and we MUTUALLY agreed to merge seniority by straight date of hire.

This is how it should be in all mergers, none of this, we want date of hire +5 years because we don't think the other guy did as hard or as good of a job then we did. You work for Airline X and now the people of airline Y do also, end of story.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: superjeff
Posted 2013-03-24 19:21:45 and read 6331 times.

Quoting seatback (Reply 11):

It's a stock swap with the original AA shareholders getting more than 70 percent of the new company with LCC shareholders taking the remaining 30 percent.

Not quite. AA's CREDITORS are getting 72% of the merged company. AA's shareholders lose everything. And AA was quite a bit larger than US, so that makes sense. But for all intensive purposes, this is a reverse merger, just like when America West took over US Airways, keeping the latter's name.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: michman
Posted 2013-03-24 19:53:58 and read 6259 times.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 26):
This totally debunks the whole "TWA would have liquidated if AA didn't ride in on a white horse and save their employees from losing whatever they had left" theory, therefore, will quickly be dismissed and ignored as though your post was never made. Ignorance as to the facts about TWA run rampant on this and other boards frequented by armchair airline CEO's.

While they may or may not have ultimately ended up in a Chapter 7 liquidation, they were certainly headed for bankruptcy. Why would they agree to it if they weren't already headed that way. Just look at their finances, they were on a completely unsustainable path. So, yes, they "might" have emerged whole from a Chapter 11, but the odds against were quite high which is likely why they saw the AA offer as their best option.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: rickabone
Posted 2013-03-24 21:29:31 and read 6185 times.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 12):
TWA FA's union agreed to that type of seniority integration when AA bought TWA, their union agreed to that...

Actually this is completely wrong... TWA's FA's were told that their seniority would be integrated based on date of hire and then APFA decided not to honor their 'promise.'

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-03-24 21:30:10 and read 6171 times.

Quoting michman (Reply 30):
While they may or may not have ultimately ended up in a Chapter 7 liquidation, they were certainly headed for bankruptcy. Why would they agree to it if they weren't already headed that way. Just look at their finances, they were on a completely unsustainable path. So, yes, they "might" have emerged whole from a Chapter 11, but the odds against were quite high which is likely why they saw the AA offer as their best option.

They agreed to it because it was a condition of the takeover. It was a condition of the takeover because AA didn't want anything to do with the KARABU agreement and that was the only way to make sure they weren't bogged down by it. America West was also sniffing around TWA and, apparently, AA made a better offer. It was clear TWA needed to do something but, as you said (and thank you for at least acknowledging it), liquidation was never a sure thing absent AA. Not with other airlines knocking on their door as well.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: rickabone
Posted 2013-03-24 21:43:14 and read 6147 times.

Quoting tothestars (Reply 25):
" AA acquired TWA as an asset acquisition while TWA was in bankruptcy,"

Wrong. TWA was not in bankruptcy until the AA take over was agreed to.

Excerpt from a letter written by Robert A. Pastore
Former Member, TWA Board of Directors
Former Chairman, TWA Master Executive Council, Air Line Pilots Association.

To
The Honorable Kay Bailey Hutchison
United States Senator

Some of your comments are misleading or lack a factual basis. Please allow my perspective.

You said, in response to Senator Talent?s motion for a Sense-of-the-Senate Amendment,
"I am very sad and very sorry about the situation with the TWA employees. It was a difficult situation when TWA was in bankruptcy. A number of airlines sought to take over TWA. American was the one that was willing to do it."

TWA was not in bankruptcy prior to American?s purchase. The bankruptcy filing by TWA was a condition of the Asset Purchase Agreement as written and proposed by American. Both Boards of Directors accepted the Asset Purchase agreement at about 5p.m. EST on January 9, 2001 and in compliance with the terms and conditions of the Agreement, immediately filed bankruptcy later that evening or early the next morning. One purpose of the bankruptcy filing was to evict Carl Icahn?s onerous Karabu Ticket Agreement. I have attached the Asset Purchase Agreement and call your attention to the Recitals.

At the time of the American purchase, TWA was in the midst of negotiations to merge with America West Airlines. The American deal was not mentioned to the TWA Board until January 9th, 2001 and came as a bit of a surprise, to say the least.

http://www.smilinjack.com/cgi/ultima...ebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000671

Thanks for digging that up... A little research goes a long way... Unfortunately facts don't phase some people. TWA was on a path to being quite successful prior to Flight 800, and then again it was starting to turn the boat at the time of the buyout by AA with the acquisition & orders of loads of new aircraft and refocusing on a more domestic route structure, though without getting rid of the Karabu agreements with Gordon Gekko er... um... Carl Icahn, TWA was always going to be handicapped. Now maybe they wouldn't have had time to turn the boat before they ran out of money or maybe they would have, we'll never know, but the idea that they were days from being liquidated when AA swooped in and galantly saved the day is a quite a stretch of the imagination at best.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: questions
Posted 2013-03-24 21:52:25 and read 6143 times.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 32):
It was a condition of the takeover because AA didn't want anything to do with the KARABU agreement and that was the only way to make sure they weren't bogged down by it.

I was wondering what the KARABU agreement was and found this:

For Those Who Ask, "What Is Karabu?" And TWA (by Acvitale Jun 12 2000 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: thegoldenargosy
Posted 2013-03-24 23:42:25 and read 6078 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 22):

Pan Am FA's did not keep their DOE at Delta. They lost some seniority. This is something many of the Pan Amers are still upset about.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: rickabone
Posted 2013-03-25 00:44:27 and read 6001 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 34):

I was wondering what the KARABU agreement was and found this:

It was one of the ways that Carl Icahn could ensure that he would be able to suck every last drop out of the airline even after he was forced to divest interest from it. Carl Icahn was one of the inspirations for the Gordon Gekko character and in my opinion, he's worse. He's the very definition of a vulture capitalist.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2013-03-25 05:56:20 and read 5881 times.

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 35):
Pan Am FA's did not keep their DOE at Delta. They lost some seniority. This is something many of the Pan Amers are still upset about.

Delta didnt merge with Pan Am. It was an asset purchase. Plain and simple. Pan Am had to die, and good riddance. Delta picked the best remaining cheries for itself, and let the rotten ones die.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-03-25 06:06:51 and read 5892 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 18):
When DL acquired PA's European routes, they did not hire PA FA's?
Quoting tothestars (Reply 14):
Thank you DTWPurserBoy, and actually the president of APFA has publicly stated that it was a mistake and that they really messed up.

The PA f/a's had to interview for the jobs and many of the questions were so outrageous that it made "Sixty Minutes." The headline of one major New York newspaper was "We Love to Pry and It Shows." Those hired lost some seniority but they had good jobs.

I appreciate the clarification on the APFA's president's statement.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2013-03-25 07:01:43 and read 5769 times.

Quoting rickabone (Reply 35):
Carl Icahn was one of the inspirations for the Gordon Gekko character and in my opinion, he's worse. He's the very definition of a vulture capitalist.

Funny you mention that....at my Investment Company the other day I was compared to Icahn, Gekko, Trump, AND Lorenzo.

Quoting rickabone (Reply 32):
TWA was on a path to being quite successful prior to Flight 800, and then again it was starting to turn the boat at the time of the buyout by AA with the acquisition & orders of loads of new aircraft and refocusing on a more domestic route structure, though without getting rid of the Karabu agreements with Gordon Gekko er... um... Carl Icahn, TWA was always going to be handicapped. Now maybe they wouldn't have had time to turn the boat before they ran out of money or maybe they would have, we'll never know, but the idea that they were days from being liquidated when AA swooped in and galantly saved the day is a quite a stretch of the imagination at best.

Ever since we began the re-imaging of TWA in 1995/96, we were climbing out the hole Icahn, Wilson, and Erickson put us in. It was almost as if a light bulb came on and the employees started working their butts off again. Certainly, while the new members of the fleet helped out a lot, so did the increased passenger levels. If I remember correctly, we won the JD Power awards for best on-time and best Domestic Carrier a couple of years in a row (or something to that effect, my memory is hazy). Towards the end of 1999 or so, upper managements vision began to get darker, and change. By mid-2000 or so...the BOD had an almost singular goal with the urge to merge or sell the airline. By December, AA was the only one that offered anything for us.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 25):
This totally debunks the whole "TWA would have liquidated if AA didn't ride in on a white horse and save their employees from losing whatever they had left" theory, therefore, will quickly be dismissed and ignored as though your post was never made. Ignorance as to the facts about TWA run rampant on this and other boards frequented by armchair airline CEO's

Amen...

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: ripcordd
Posted 2013-03-25 07:27:17 and read 5729 times.

Sure it sucks TWA was stapled to the bottom but without AA and there was nobody else they all would have been on the street and what good is any seniority on the street. TWA employees had about 3 days left before the doors were locked and they were put on the street that was until AA came in and thru them a life line. So if they feel they can go back in time and adjust lets adjust AA not buying TWA at all.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-25 07:40:24 and read 5694 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 37):

"I appreciate the clarification on the APFA's president's statement."


Thanks DTWPurserBoy, i do try and back up my statements with documentation.
The following is an excerpt taken from the APFAs very own web sight from an interview with the Forth Worth Star Telegram. Note the use of the word "merger" by Ms. Glading.

http://www.apfa.org/content/view/2301/929/

"ST: There were seniority integration issues with the American-TWA merger. Who gets seniority if US Airways/American Airlines are merged?
Glading: I’ll take that one. Because we really screwed up on that big time with the flight attendants. When we merged with TWA, the company did give them top pay but we stapled them to the bottom of our seniority list. That was a mistake. But we did. So before at that time though there wasn’t the Allegheny–Mohawk provision was not legislated. Since then in December of 2007, McCaskill–Bond put together an amendment to the omnibus bill that said that seniority integration has to be agreed upon by the parties, if it’s not it goes to this binding arbitration process. So now we have this backstop."

So essentially what she's saying is as a result of APFA screwing TWA, a bill was passed that means that now APFA can't be screwed...so lets just move on.

[Edited 2013-03-25 08:37:00]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-03-25 09:41:57 and read 5567 times.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 38):
Sure it sucks TWA was stapled to the bottom but without AA and there was nobody else they all would have been on the street and what good is any seniority on the street. TWA employees had about 3 days left before the doors were locked and they were put on the street that was until AA came in and thru them a life line. So if they feel they can go back in time and adjust lets adjust AA not buying TWA at all.

Hogwash. You're just repeating stuff that you've heard here and at other sites, not any of it with anything real to back it up.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: AA767400
Posted 2013-03-25 12:43:26 and read 5456 times.

This is a very serious issue for TW flight attendants. And rightfully so.

I will say that AA's purchase of TW was a big mistake. AA dismantled TW, and kept next to nothing. Essentially eliminating a competitor. All that is left of said merger is a handful of flights out of STL - additional M80s, and former TW employees.

The APFA stapled them to the bottom of the seniority list, and in turn - created discord amongst it's own work group. It's hard for former TW FAs to just "let it go". And sadly - even if APFA decides to grant them their DOH seniority, the damage is done. And that's something they'll never forgot. Out of an initial 4000 - 900 remain. Hopefully they do get their DOH seniority, and hopefully all involved can move on.

Where would TW be if AA had not purchased it? Who knows? In the end no one knows what would have become of them. But in this industry, it's ALL about seniority. Seniority is a great perk, but I dare say it also creates a system where people don't retire. I know I'll be flamed for this, but there should be a retirement age. Or an evaluation of the employee. Becuase let's be honest, there's some very entitled and complacent FAs out there. Most being pretty senior.

Just my two cents.   

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-25 12:50:51 and read 5432 times.

I respect your views AA767400 and I might add that in some cases I've seen a softening and empathy from some AA people. Maybe hardship does make one more caring to the plight of others. " There but for the grace of God go I."

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-03-25 13:42:23 and read 5394 times.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 40):
You're just repeating stuff that you've heard here and at other sites, not any of it with anything real to back it up.

TW didn't have much to look forward to, other than hubs in STL, JFK, LAX, and SJU, with B6 and WN clobbering them from every angle, and a fleet of 717/318s on the way to make matters worse. It wasn't assured liquidation, but there was no light at the end of the tunnel.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-25 13:47:18 and read 5370 times.

We got it, but this is not about that subject.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: questions
Posted 2013-03-25 20:48:58 and read 5180 times.

Sorry if I missed this. Did the APFA represent FAs at TW and AA or just AA? If both, why did APFA screw its own people?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: chepos
Posted 2013-03-25 21:10:55 and read 5156 times.

APFA did not represent TWA'ers prior to the acqusition, not sure who represented them. It would be the right thing to do (give them their seniority back), however I doubt it will happen.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-03-26 05:50:52 and read 5044 times.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 41):

I will say that AA's purchase of TW was a big mistake. AA dismantled TW, and kept next to nothing. Essentially eliminating a competitor. All that is left of said merger is a handful of flights out of STL - additional M80s, and former TW employees.

Curiously, IIRC, APFA did not do this to the former Reno Air or Air California flight attendants. How were they integrated--on a rank/ratio basis? And AA dismantled both of those carriers, too.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-03-26 06:04:14 and read 5020 times.

Quoting tothestars (Reply 44):
We got it, but this is not about that subject.

I think it's pretty important to consider. I assume most unions have a structure in place to merge with another union, but what do they plan if they are acquiring a union out of bankruptcy? That could change the calculus of mergers both on the labor side and on the management side, and not in a good way.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-26 06:05:18 and read 5036 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 47):
Curiously, IIRC, APFA did not do this to the former Reno Air or Air California flight attendants. How were they integrated--on a rank/ratio basis? And AA dismantled both of those carriers, too.

APFA stapled the Reno f/a as well. Reno Airlines was only 5 years old so although they were stapled to the bottom of the seniority list, AA was hiring and soon 4000 TWA f/a's stapled beneath them would push them up the seniority list. I'm not sure if they ever did anything to try and remedy this placement, but ultimately IMHO they did okay
Air Cal was given DOH.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-03-26 06:19:56 and read 5010 times.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 24):
This totally debunks the whole "TWA would have liquidated if AA didn't ride in on a white horse and save their employees from losing whatever they had left" theory, therefore, will quickly be dismissed and ignored as though your post was never made. Ignorance as to the facts about TWA run rampant on this and other boards frequented by armchair airline CEO's.

That is probably true, but would they truly have survived long-term (even after BK exit) after what Carl Icahn's pillaging of that airline did to TWA?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-26 06:33:48 and read 5004 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 50):
That is probably true, but would they truly have survived long-term (even after BK exit) after what Carl Icahn's pillaging of that airline did to TWA?


TWA entered BK to rid themselves of Karabu. This was a condition of the American acquisition. TWA was not in BK at the time the take over was announced.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: sccutler
Posted 2013-03-26 06:48:55 and read 4979 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 4):
How much cash is US pumping into AA? It's a merger in name only just because there are more tax benefits to a merger rather than a buyout.

US is pumping exactly zero dollars; it is a merger. US could not under any rational scenario afford to buy AA.

Not that it really matters.

Quoting tothestars (Reply 51):

TWA entered BK to rid themselves of Karabu. This was a condition of the American acquisition. TWA was not in BK at the time the take over was announced.

True enough; they were merely broke, down to hours, not days, of working capital.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-03-26 07:19:57 and read 4952 times.

Was the APFA/TWA decision rendered by APFA or an arbitrator? I can't see an arbitrator allowing it to stand.

If two AFA carriers merge it is their policy that it goes straight date of hire. Lord onlyknows why it took so long in the US/HP case.

With and APFA/AFA merging I would assume it would be arbitrated unless they agree to DOH. And once an arbitrator rules that is the end of the line. There is no appeal. You never know what they will do.

When Northwest Orient acquired Republic airlines we had an arbitrated decision. Us NW people said "Hey--we are bringing 747's, DC-10's, lots of 757's and long haul international flying to the table. Republic has a bunch of DC-9's, Convair 580's and a handful of 757;s--all short haul aircraft.. Obviously the NW "career" expectations for a NW person were that we would be flying long-haul international trips while the best the Republic folks could expect was a 757 to New York or Florida. When North Central bought Hughes Air West they "rank/ratioed" them in and that caused no end of animosity (and sometimes still does). But that is the seniority decision their arbitrator handed them and it has stood for many years.

Our arbitrator for the NW/NC merger essentially said "The flight attendant job is the same no matter what type of airplane you are flying" and he went straight date of hire. Needless to say the NW people were LESS than pleased and to make matters worse, NW and NC both used 5 digit employee numbers. NW's answer to that problem was to add a "0" to the front of the original NW folks and a "!" to the front of the NC people. You instantly had a visual indicator of who came from where and you would not believe the fights that caused!

DL, on the other hand, issued all 80,000 employees brand new 9 digit numbers so there is no visible indicator of who came from where. Very smart move, IMHO. But it took a while--a LONG while, to memorize a 9 digit number!

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-03-26 07:20:15 and read 4951 times.

Quoting tothestars (Reply 49):
APFA stapled the Reno f/a as well. Reno Airlines was only 5 years old so although they were stapled to the bottom of the seniority list, AA was hiring and soon 4000 TWA f/a's stapled beneath them would push them up the seniority list. I'm not sure if they ever did anything to try and remedy this placement, but ultimately IMHO they did okay
Air Cal was given DOH.

How does APFA decide how to treat the incoming FAs, whether to go by DOH, staple, or another formula?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-26 07:31:12 and read 4946 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 53):
Was the APFA/TWA decision rendered by APFA or an arbitrator? I can't see an arbitrator allowing it to stand.
AA offered a promised arbitrator but the APFA refused to meet with them and refused to respond to any contact attempts by the TWA f/a union. There was no arbitrators decision, " Glading: Because we really screwed up on that big time with the flight attendants. When we merged with TWA, the company did give them top pay but we stapled them to the bottom of our seniority list. That was a mistake. But we did.

[Edited 2013-03-26 07:35:22]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-26 08:06:12 and read 4926 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 54):
How does APFA decide how to treat the incoming FAs, whether to go by DOH, staple, or another formula?

From APFA website:
SENIORITY INTEGRATION
1. How will seniority be determined at the New American?
A. In accordance with the McCaskill Bond Amendment, APFA and AFA-CWA will
be meeting to reach a fair and equitable agreement to integrate the seniority lists.
We expect those negotiations to be amicable and straightforward and to result in
an agreement. If, in the unlikely event, an agreement is not achieved, the matter
will be submitted to an arbitrator who, in a final and binding decision, will
determine how the seniority lists are integrated.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-26 08:16:51 and read 4914 times.

Excerpt:

Statement of Jim Tuller
Spokesperson, Former TWA Flight Attendants

Before the U.S. House Committee on the Judiciary
Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform,
Commercial and Antitrust Law

Hearing on “Competition and Bankruptcy in the Airline Industry:
The Proposed Merger of American Airlines and US Airways”

February 26, 2013
The Association of Flight Attendants, (AFA) is the union for USAirways and is the largest flight attendant union in the AFL-CIO and in the country with over 60,000 members. AFA’s full support of our position is noted in the June 16, 2011 letter sent to Chairman Rockefeller as we attempted to get legislation passed to close the loophole in the McCaskill-Bond legislation to include us prospectively. The AFA noted, “It is wrong that the very people whose treatment necessitated a change in the law were not protected by that law. Former TWA flight attendants have suffered extraordinary harm from the ill-advised seniority stapling…. Should American merge again, former TWA flight attendants will be further disadvantaged as the only group to receive no seniority integration whatsoever…. We encourage Congress to take legislative action to end this injustice.” (Tab #7, AFA letter to Senator Rockefeller, emphasis added).

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-03-26 08:21:16 and read 4890 times.

Quoting tothestars (Reply 56):
From APFA website:
SENIORITY INTEGRATION

Even if a carrier acquires another in bankruptcy or parts of a nonviable carrier?

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-03-26 08:54:56 and read 4863 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 58):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 58):
Quoting tothestars (Reply 56):
From APFA website:
SENIORITY INTEGRATION

Even if a carrier acquires another in bankruptcy or parts of a nonviable carrier?

Seniority integration is determined by the unions. Due to APFA's past actions they will be required to abide by McCasill-Bond in any future Merger/Acquisitions.

The National Mediation Boards legal definition of Merger:
Merger is a consolidation, merger, purchase, lease, operating contract,
acquisition of control, or similar transaction of two or more business
entities.

[Edited 2013-03-26 08:59:37]

[Edited 2013-03-26 09:02:38]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: ripcordd
Posted 2013-03-26 09:13:16 and read 4833 times.

This will be very simple I don't why people are over thinking it. You will be slotted in with your seniority in your job class. There is no more TWA all TWA employees with AA have a new seniority date and that's the date that will be used.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2013-03-26 10:02:50 and read 4759 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 53):
When North Central bought Hughes Air West

Didn't Republic buy Hughes Air West? I thought by then North Central had already merged with Southern to form Republic.
At any rate, I would expect the outcome of the US and AA F/A's to be very different from AA and TWA.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: B727FA
Posted 2013-03-26 10:37:54 and read 4732 times.

Quoting YYZbound (Reply 6):
Excuse me....I'm from RenoAir....and WE were also stapled to the bottom of the seniority list....just in case anyone forgot.

And I don't recall anyone feeling terribly sorry for us when we lost our seniority

  

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 7):
Now all we need is people from AirCal, Piedmont, PSA, Lake Central, Mohawk, all wanting to redo things.

Careful now...Allegheny/Mohawk DID do DOH. And TWA/Ozark...

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 11):
TWA FA's union agreed to that type of seniority integration when AA bought TWA, their union agreed to that...don't forget that part of the equation in return,

Patently false.

Quoting michman (Reply 22):
AA acquired TWA as an asset acquisition while TWA was in bankruptcy. TWA was very unlikely to emerge from their bankruptcy whole.

Untrue. It was a pre-packaged deal STRICTLY for the sake of the "merger/acquisition."

Quoting rickabone (Reply 29):
Actually this is completely wrong... TWA's FA's were told that their seniority would be integrated based on date of hire and then APFA decided not to honor their 'promise.'

  

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: NWAESC
Posted 2013-03-26 11:13:45 and read 4685 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 53):
DL, on the other hand, issued all 80,000 employees brand new 9 digit numbers so there is no visible indicator of who came from where. Very smart move, IMHO. But it took a while--a LONG while, to memorize a 9 digit number!

Haha. Yes it did...

Not for nothing, I still have to use my NW number fairly often at work... We still have some PC's on a PMNW server...

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-03-26 11:20:26 and read 4678 times.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 52):
True enough; they were merely broke, down to hours, not days, of working capital.

Where do you find this information - and don't just say that it was common knowledge. Show me where you see that.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: ripcordd
Posted 2013-03-26 12:16:56 and read 4631 times.

ASFLYER here you go
In fact, in February 2001 Compton testified before the Senate Commerce Committee, saying that he had approached every major airline in the United States. “No one was interested in TWA as a going concern,” he said. “Most recognized that they would benefit from TWA’s demise and decided they would sit back and let it happen.”

And it would have happened—soon. “The cash position was such that had American not stepped up to the deal on the day that they did, on the next day we would have shut down the airline,” says Abels.
http://www.stlmag.com/St-Louis-Magaz...ctober-2005/TWA-Death-Of-A-Legend/

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: rickabone
Posted 2013-03-26 14:18:27 and read 4560 times.

Quoting tothestars (Reply 39):
Sure it sucks TWA was stapled to the bottom but without AA and there was nobody else they all would have been on the street and what good is any seniority on the street. TWA employees had about 3 days left before the doors were locked and they were put on the street that was until AA came in and thru them a life line. So if they feel they can go back in time and adjust lets adjust AA not buying TWA at all.

You clearly didn't read any dozen or so of the posts immediately prior to yours that proves your post to be 100% factually inaccurate.  

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: flyfree727
Posted 2013-03-26 14:27:22 and read 4560 times.

Quoting rickabone (Reply 66):
You clearly didn't read any dozen or so of the posts immediately prior to yours that proves your post to be 100% factually inaccurate.

And perhaps you didn't read this one:

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 65):
In fact, in February 2001 Compton testified before the Senate Commerce Committee, saying that he had approached every major airline in the United States. “No one was interested in TWA as a going concern,” he said. “Most recognized that they would benefit from TWA’s demise and decided they would sit back and let it happen.”

And it would have happened—soon. “The cash position was such that had American not stepped up to the deal on the day that they did, on the next day we would have shut down the airline,” says Abels.
http://www.stlmag.com/St-Louis-Magaz...gend/

AA ORD

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: rickabone
Posted 2013-03-26 14:28:44 and read 4551 times.

^That was actually a quote of ripcordd... I don't know why it has it as quoting 'tothestar'

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-03-26 15:40:25 and read 4484 times.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 65):
ASFLYER here you go
In fact, in February 2001 Compton testified before the Senate Commerce Committee, saying that he had approached every major airline in the United States. “No one was interested in TWA as a going concern,” he said. “Most recognized that they would benefit from TWA’s demise and decided they would sit back and let it happen.”

And it would have happened—soon. “The cash position was such that had American not stepped up to the deal on the day that they did, on the next day we would have shut down the airline,” says Abels.
http://www.stlmag.com/St-Louis-Magaz...gend/

This is from the same article. It's all a matter of perspective it sounds like.

Depending on whom you ask, the American purchase was either inevitable or borderline criminal. Compton, the pilot-turned-executive who orchestrated the sale and claimed it was TWA’s only option, is described variously as a good-hearted savior, a bumbling naïf and a turncoat who sold out the employees for personal profit.

“We were actually making progress, good progress,” says Darnall. “Our costs were among the lowest in the industry. The only thing that was keeping us from showing profit was Carl Icahn’s ticket agreement, and that was scheduled to expire in September 2003. We were very close to getting out from under that burden. We all knew that the winter of 2000 was going to be a difficult time. Winters were difficult times for all airlines. Our cash position was not flush, but we were convinced that TWA was going to make it without too much difficulty.”

“I was pretty surprised by the bankruptcy announcement,” says Struyk. “When the press release came out, it made it sound a lot more bleak than I thought it was.”

Given that reaction, it’s a pretty safe bet that Compton isn’t spending his days hanging out with his old TWA flying buddies, who sum up their feeling about his role in the sale with one word: betrayal.


One pilot speculates that Compton’s motives in setting up the sale were more personal than professional, “a defensive move so that he was not replaced as CEO.”

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-03-27 05:39:12 and read 4233 times.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 63):

Haha. Yes it did...

Not for nothing, I still have to use my NW number fairly often at work... We still have some PC's on a PMNW server...

Perhaps we should start a thread on DL's IT department. What can you say about a major airline that is still using dot matrix printers in 2013? You still have to rip all the holes off the sides of the paper.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: rickabone
Posted 2013-03-27 12:47:22 and read 4073 times.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 69):
Quoting ripcordd (Reply 65):
ASFLYER here you go
In fact, in February 2001 Compton testified before the Senate Commerce Committee, saying that he had approached every major airline in the United States. “No one was interested in TWA as a going concern,” he said. “Most recognized that they would benefit from TWA’s demise and decided they would sit back and let it happen.”

And it would have happened—soon. “The cash position was such that had American not stepped up to the deal on the day that they did, on the next day we would have shut down the airline,” says Abels.
http://www.stlmag.com/St-Louis-Magaz...gend/

This is from the same article. It's all a matter of perspective it sounds like.

Depending on whom you ask, the American purchase was either inevitable or borderline criminal. Compton, the pilot-turned-executive who orchestrated the sale and claimed it was TWA’s only option, is described variously as a good-hearted savior, a bumbling naïf and a turncoat who sold out the employees for personal profit.

“We were actually making progress, good progress,” says Darnall. “Our costs were among the lowest in the industry. The only thing that was keeping us from showing profit was Carl Icahn’s ticket agreement, and that was scheduled to expire in September 2003. We were very close to getting out from under that burden. We all knew that the winter of 2000 was going to be a difficult time. Winters were difficult times for all airlines. Our cash position was not flush, but we were convinced that TWA was going to make it without too much difficulty.”

“I was pretty surprised by the bankruptcy announcement,” says Struyk. “When the press release came out, it made it sound a lot more bleak than I thought it was.”

Given that reaction, it’s a pretty safe bet that Compton isn’t spending his days hanging out with his old TWA flying buddies, who sum up their feeling about his role in the sale with one word: betrayal.


One pilot speculates that Compton’s motives in setting up the sale were more personal than professional, “a defensive move so that he was not replaced as CEO.”

Bingo!!!!
The quotes and soundbites used to suggest that TWA was days or even hours from shutting down prior to the acquisition were made by people who were promoting the sale and stood to reap great personal benefit from it.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: B727FA
Posted 2013-03-27 12:52:17 and read 4056 times.

To be fair, gate printers at MANY carriers are dot-matrix...in fact, those printers are still made and are available to buy new. Many high-volume, low quality requirement print environments still use dot matrix b/c the paper is cheap (pulp) and the ink/ribbons are sturdy.

That said, the DL IT has been behind the curve and NW's IT was far superior. That's getting addressed and in the last 12 months alone $150M has been invested in IT upgrades alone. Now...back to my Commodore 64...I have a dispatch to write. LOL

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-03-27 12:54:52 and read 4068 times.

Quoting rickabone (Reply 71):

Bingo!!!!
The quotes and soundbites used to suggest that TWA was days or even hours from shutting down prior to the acquisition were made by people who were promoting the sale and stood to reap great personal benefit from it.

However, with hindsight it's pretty clear TW's goose was cooked. STL didn't work. They would have been incinerated at JFK by B6, and their hopes were pinned on hyper competitive, low fare focus cities in LAX and SJU. They had one foot in the grave and one foot on a banana peel. Same goes for QQ--there was no long term plan there that would have worked either.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: rickabone
Posted 2013-03-27 13:12:32 and read 4046 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 73):

However, with hindsight it's pretty clear TW's goose was cooked. STL didn't work. They would have been incinerated at JFK by B6, and their hopes were pinned on hyper competitive, low fare focus cities in LAX and SJU. They had one foot in the grave and one foot on a banana peel. Same goes for QQ--there was no long term plan there that would have worked either.

I think your hindsight is looking a bit too far forward... AT THE TIME of the acquisition, TWA would have been turning a healthy profit were it not for the Karabu agreements. Now looking forward to today, you are correct, but who's to say that TWA wouldn't have gone through several major changes to change with the times.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-03-27 14:04:28 and read 4020 times.

Quoting rickabone (Reply 74):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 73):

However, with hindsight it's pretty clear TW's goose was cooked. STL didn't work. They would have been incinerated at JFK by B6, and their hopes were pinned on hyper competitive, low fare focus cities in LAX and SJU. They had one foot in the grave and one foot on a banana peel. Same goes for QQ--there was no long term plan there that would have worked either.

I think your hindsight is looking a bit too far forward... AT THE TIME of the acquisition, TWA would have been turning a healthy profit were it not for the Karabu agreements. Now looking forward to today, you are correct, but who's to say that TWA wouldn't have gone through several major changes to change with the times.

What he said. Also wanted to add that since TWA has gone away, every major airline has had to shift their focus and reinvent themselves... including Southwest and Jet Blue. There's nothing saying that TWA wouldn't have done the same. I don't actually believe they would still be around today though, I think America West would have bought them and they would be part of a stronger airline.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: NWAESC
Posted 2013-03-28 11:34:48 and read 3820 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 70):
Perhaps we should start a thread on DL's IT department. What can you say about a major airline that is still using dot matrix printers in 2013? You still have to rip all the holes off the sides of the paper.

"When will DL retire the OkiDatas?" could become the new "When will NW retire the DC9?" thread-wise.  
Quoting B727FA (Reply 72):
To be fair, gate printers at MANY carriers are dot-matrix...in fact, those printers are still made and are available to buy new. Many high-volume, low quality requirement print environments still use dot matrix b/c the paper is cheap (pulp) and the ink/ribbons are sturdy.

That said, the DL IT has been behind the curve and NW's IT was far superior. That's getting addressed and in the last 12 months alone $150M has been invested in IT upgrades alone. Now...back to my Commodore 64...I have a dispatch to write. LOL

Behind the curve= Understatement of the year, IMO...

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2013-03-31 03:20:01 and read 3537 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 70):
Perhaps we should start a thread on DL's IT department. What can you say about a major airline that is still using dot matrix printers in 2013? You still have to rip all the holes off the sides of the paper.

That's pretty standard in a lot of airlines (and other industries). Large corporations are slow to adopt new technology unless their business is technology. It was only last decade that several airlines switched to Windows-based systems with a portal to their res system in place of the old greenscreen units.


Quoting B727FA (Reply 72):
To be fair, gate printers at MANY carriers are dot-matrix...in fact, those printers are still made and are available to buy new. Many high-volume, low quality requirement print environments still use dot matrix b/c the paper is cheap (pulp) and the ink/ribbons are sturdy.

Similar to why a lot of retailers still use scanners and registers designed in the 80s.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-03-31 03:38:48 and read 3537 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 20):

DL DID take PA FA's. And they kept their original hire dates intact. A former FA friend of mine just retired from DL and she took her Pan Am 1970 seniority date with her.
Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 33):
Pan Am FA's did not keep their DOE at Delta. They lost some seniority. This is something many of the Pan Amers are still upset about.

Former Pan Am FAs who were taken on by Delta in 1991 kept their original Pan Am DOH for many purposes (e.g., non-rev priority) but not for trip bidding. In the latter scenario, Delta protected their top 3000 FAs (since PA FAs were more senior than the DL FAs in general), and slotted the first Pan Am FA in at #3001. From there, it was one PA FA for every three DL FAs. As a result, for trip bidding purposes, the most senior PA FAs lost about half their seniority (e.g., a 1970 Pan Am hire came in as a 1980 hire) while the more junior PA FAs (e.g., those hired in 1988 by Pan Am when they had their last FA hiring push) lost less (a 1988 PA hire became a 1989 hire)....

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: tothestars
Posted 2013-04-01 06:52:57 and read 3334 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 78):

"Former Pan Am FAs who were taken on by Delta in 1991 kept their original Pan Am DOH for many purposes (e.g., non-rev priority) but not for trip bidding. In the latter scenario, Delta protected their top 3000 FAs (since PA FAs were more senior than the DL FAs in general), and slotted the first Pan Am FA in at #3001. From there, it was one PA FA for every three DL FAs. As a result, for trip bidding purposes, the most senior PA FAs lost about half their seniority (e.g., a 1970 Pan Am hire came in as a 1980 hire) while the more junior PA FAs (e.g., those hired in 1988 by Pan Am when they had their last FA hiring push) lost less (a 1988 PA hire became a 1989 hire)..."


That's still a lot better than being stapled behind someone who was 3 days out of training.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-04-01 07:03:21 and read 3306 times.

Quoting rickabone (Reply 74):
I think your hindsight is looking a bit too far forward... AT THE TIME of the acquisition, TWA would have been turning a healthy profit were it not for the Karabu agreements. Now looking forward to today, you are correct, but who's to say that TWA wouldn't have gone through several major changes to change with the times.

That is like saying VX will be making healthy profits if they didn't have to pay for fuel. Or Eastern would have been making healthy profits if they didn't have to pay employee salaries. The fact of the matter is that TWA had to deal with the Karabu agreement, and they were still saddled to if for over two years if AA hadn't acquired them (plus, with hindsight, a major terrorist attack crippling demand). So saying that they would have been profitable without it is completely meaningless as that is living in a fantasy world - we don't really know if that is true because there was no Karabu less TWA in 2000/early 2001.

[Edited 2013-04-01 07:05:00]

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: BA0197
Posted 2013-04-01 07:10:51 and read 3296 times.

This is the thing that will be a bother. At IAH, just becuase that is where I work, we (AA) have an a average senority of 1998. US, on the other hand had an average of 2009. If they were to directly merge the lists (which is only fair to us at AA), US would be livid. The US agents are not happy already. But we are trying to make the best of it (we had a party to celebrate the merger).

I've often been told that US ground staff are rather junior, yet their cabin crew and pilots are rather senior (when comparing to us at AA). I do wonder how they will intergrate the contracts together.

I hope that we keep our way of non-reving (D1, D2 etc.) instead of the list being based only on senority.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-04-01 07:24:55 and read 3282 times.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 24):
This totally debunks the whole "TWA would have liquidated if AA didn't ride in on a white horse and save their employees from losing whatever they had left" theory, therefore, will quickly be dismissed and ignored as though your post was never made.

So you're actually suggesting that TWA wouldn't have had to file for bankruptcy at some point, anyway? I find that farfetched.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 27):
AA's shareholders lose everything.

Not according to most recent press reports, which indicate AMR may - for perhaps the first time in airline industry history, and certainly for the first time among the large bankruptcies of the last decade - be able to return some value back to shareholders in the plan of reorganization.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 30):
They agreed to it because it was a condition of the takeover.

And why do you suppose TWA agreed to the takeover? Were they not desperate?

Quoting rickabone (Reply 31):
TWA was on a path to being quite successful prior to Flight 800, and then again it was starting to turn the boat at the time of the buyout by AA with the acquisition & orders of loads of new aircraft and refocusing on a more domestic route structure, though without getting rid of the Karabu agreements with Gordon Gekko er... um... Carl Icahn, TWA was always going to be handicapped. Now maybe they wouldn't have had time to turn the boat before they ran out of money or maybe they would have, we'll never know, but the idea that they were days from being liquidated when AA swooped in and galantly saved the day is a quite a stretch of the imagination at best.

I find this fascinating - never heard this narrative before. So the entire previous story about TWA propagated for a decade, including by TWA management, was a lie? TWA was not "weeks away" from filing bankruptcy, or at least wasn't on an economically unsustainable path? If TWA had even survived through the summer of 2001, 9/11 wouldn't have forced them into bankruptcy?

Again - I, frankly, find that very hard to believe. TWA's fortunes may have been improving, but not nearly fast enough, and if the hindsight of the last decade is any guide, I see absolutely no way TWA could have survived 9/11 and its aftermath.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-01 07:40:19 and read 3265 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 82):
Again - I, frankly, find that very hard to believe. TWA's fortunes may have been improving, but not nearly fast enough, and if the hindsight of the last decade is any guide, I see absolutely no way TWA could have survived 9/11 and its aftermath.

It's really comical to think about it...a bunch of high CASM new aircraft coming (318s, 717s), declining international exposure, buildups in the lowest fare hubs of the universe (LAX, SJU), WN like white on rice in STL, B6 in JFK and later SJU, fuel spiking, declining relevance....what could have gone wrong?? The best thing they had going for them was Ricky Martin on the cover of one of their last timetables.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: rickabone
Posted 2013-04-01 11:36:09 and read 3159 times.

We can debate TWA's prognosis at the time of the merger/acquisition til the cows come home... There are sources to support multiple sides of the debate... The point is, however, that TWA FA's should get there original DOH in this new merger with US since everyone else is and that is now the law.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: EIDL
Posted 2013-04-01 11:47:35 and read 3129 times.

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 76):
"When will DL retire the OkiDatas?" could become the new "When will NW retire the DC9?" thread-wise.  

The day the 3320 goes out of airports is the same day I likely have to quit my own job (in one of the other last industries to use the damn things). Have installed at least ten new ones in 2013!

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-04-01 16:24:28 and read 3005 times.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 81):
I've often been told that US ground staff are rather junior, yet their cabin crew and pilots are rather senior (when comparing to us at AA)

I think you will find that the cabin crew and pilots (for East at any rate) have pretty similar seniority over all with AA. West is generally more junior, although there are people who have been there for 30 years and still flying A320s. DOH would be fairest to them because they would finally be able to move up, although East are pretty adamant that West aren't going anywhere near something heavy, even with the joint list for the merger.

Topic: RE: AA/US Merger & TWA FA's Seniority Intergration
Username: chepos
Posted 2013-04-01 16:44:17 and read 2979 times.

I would not consider ground personnel at US to be junior, at least at some stations. IAH would be an exception, predominantly east stations have some very senior people.


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