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Topic: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: seansasLCY
Posted 2013-04-08 03:59:50 and read 17920 times.

Emirates will begin flying Milan - New York from October 1st.

http://gulfbusiness.com/2013/04/emir...-york-from-october-1/#.UWKf9KJOTTo

This has been rumored before but now its official.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: g500
Posted 2013-04-08 04:23:23 and read 17730 times.

so Alitalia is fighting for survival and the Italian government grants Emirates this route?

European governents seem to like Emirates more than their own airlines. I just don't undertand

as for Emirates, I don't blame them for cashing in on European generosity.. For them Europe is the gift that keeps on giving

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-04-08 04:38:36 and read 17555 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
so Alitalia is fighting for survival and the Italian government grants Emirates this route?

European governents seem to like Emirates more than their own airlines. I just don't undertand

as for Emirates, I don't blame them for cashing in on European generosity.. For them Europe is the gift that keeps on giving

Australia is the island that really keeps on giving to Emirates. European airlines have been invaded by the Gulf airlines but Qantas has received a rectal exam from the Gulf airlines.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: AlitaliaDC10
Posted 2013-04-08 04:57:44 and read 17328 times.

also reported here with more details...

http://www.airlinehubbuzz.com/emirat...alpensa-new-york-kennedy-services/

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-04-08 05:06:36 and read 17215 times.

- dep. MXP 16:00 - arr. JFK 19:00 EK205 0 stop 9h 00min daily
- dep. JFK 22:20 - arr. MXP 12:15 EK206 0 stop 7h 55min daily

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: ZEDZAG
Posted 2013-04-08 05:06:37 and read 17209 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
European governents seem to like Emirates more than their own airlines

I dont know why but Im thinking that politicians like EK s cash flow better than their home carriers

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-04-08 05:12:59 and read 17126 times.

And.... JFK-DXB from 1 October 2013:

- dep. JFK 11:20 - arr. DXB 07:50 EK204 0 stop 12h 30min A380
- dep. JFK 22:20 - arr. DXB 22:05 EK206 1 stop 15h 45min B773
- dep. JFK 23:00 - arr. DXB 19:45 EK202 0 stop 12h 45min A380

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2013-04-08 05:15:06 and read 17093 times.

I remember when they operated DXB-HAM-JFK. Seems a long time ago now.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-08 05:20:08 and read 17013 times.

This will be terrible--I'm not even sure it'll be better than the silly JFKHAM

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-04-08 05:28:42 and read 16920 times.

I thought I was going to have to go tp IAD to see EK's best looking aircraft again. Now I guess I won't have to.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: TheAviator380
Posted 2013-04-08 05:46:45 and read 16772 times.

What I am surprised at > EK spreading their wings every direction on the Planet Earth but why they not spreading the network in US with that speed? There are loads of cities which I would think EK can start for example, Atlanta, IAD, ORD, Florida, etc.

About this new route will be interesting to see how much load factor they get. I can imagine them deploying 380 sooner or later on this DXB-MXP-JFK  

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: SW733
Posted 2013-04-08 05:50:07 and read 16741 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
This will be terrible--I'm not even sure it'll be better than the silly JFKHAM

Hey I loved JFK-HAM the one time I took it  

Yeah, I am not quite sure about this one. It will be interesting to see how the economics work. The thing is, I could see it doing pretty good in the summer...but they're not starting it until October. Seems like an interesting time of the year to start a route like that. But hey, what do I know.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: Azure
Posted 2013-04-08 05:50:43 and read 16721 times.

Quoting seansasLCY (Thread starter):
This has been rumored before but now its official.

The flights are not logged in EK's system yet.


Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
so Alitalia is fighting for survival and the Italian government grants Emirates this route?

European governents seem to like Emirates more than their own airlines. I just don't undertand
Quoting ZEDZAG (Reply 5):
I dont know why but Im thinking that politicians like EK s cash flow better than their home carriers

AZ is not owned by the Italian State which has absolutely no stake in this carrier.
I doubt however that the Italian authorities have just granted EK rights on this route. EK have had them for quite some time I believe (just as many European airlines have rights between the UAE and SE Asia even if they are not using them currently).


Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
European airlines have been invaded by the Gulf airlines but Qantas has received a rectal exam from the Gulf airlines.

I would not use medical wording here (lol) but I agree with your point : QF's operations have been more affected by the ME3 than the European majors.
IAG will take advantage of QR in OW
AFKL is now partnered with EY
Only the LH group seems a bit isolated.


This route if confirmed can be successful for EK : there is a fair amount of O&D between NYC and Northern Italy + the plane will already be partly feeded by pax from/to Dubai.

Another thought : it is time for the European Big Three to reconsider their hub strategy and develop long-haul routes from secondary cities, sometimes with the "help" of their ME partners...

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: FSDan
Posted 2013-04-08 06:01:37 and read 16610 times.

That will make four airlines with a daily flight on JFK-MXP: DL, AA, AZ, and EK (+ UA on EWR-MXP). Of those, I would guess that AZ will be out first since they don't have a hub in MXP anyway, and the JFK-MXP service is one of only two longhaul routes they have from MXP (the other being MXP-NRT).

If not AZ, then my bet is AA. I'm sure SkyTeam will maintain a presence on this route.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-04-08 06:02:50 and read 16593 times.

This is actually good news for European carriers. It shows a kink in EK's armour and that EK's strategy of linking every 2 major cities in the world via their DXB hub has it's weakenesses. At the end of the day, Asia-Pacific and N.America are still, and will continue to be the 2 most lucrative airline markets in the World and DXB is not really well positioned to serve either of those.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...12-but-whats-ahead-in-2013-380430/
"Asia-Pacific remains the most profitable region for airlines and is forecast by IATA for a small increase in profit in 2013 to $3.2 billion. But the honour of being the most profitable region is likely to be passed to the North American carriers in 2013 as stagnating cargo weighs heavy on many of its airlines."

If EK want to continue to grow they need Europe, and more so the Europe-US market segment. Now it's up to the Euro carriers to figure out how they want to protect their home turf.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: okapi
Posted 2013-04-08 06:04:57 and read 16562 times.

It could be good news for "SEA" the Milanese Airport Managing company. However, there have been many rumours in the past regarding SQ interested to fly a sililar route. Obviously, that plan failed miserably.
Let's hope EK plans are for long term. I still wonder how good the economics for such a route could be given the fact EK is in no major alliance and most premium pax are already very loyal to Skyteam, Miles and More and even the BA FFP.
Another fact to take into account the preference by Italians to transit through a European hub to avoid the hefty yearly passport tax and we'll see how EK fills up the 777-300ER destined for the route.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-04-08 06:37:23 and read 16254 times.

Quoting okapi (Reply 15):
Let's hope EK plans are for long term. I still wonder how good the economics for such a route could be given the fact EK is in no major alliance and most premium pax are already very loyal to Skyteam, Miles and More and even the BA FFP.

If premium PAXs were loyal to alliances, EK would have never risen the way they have. EK hard product is going to be superior to any of its competitors and J/F in EK is not usually more expensive than Western competitors.

EK likely targets HNWI who pay J/F out of their own pocket or those in more non-traditional industries (major corporations like Renault or Siemens have their own agreements with AF or LH... and so on). And both New York and MXP (Northern Italy/Ticino) have their own good share of wealthy individuals and creative industries (fashion, design...) that are probably more keen on flying on EK. Also, Italians tend to be particularly brand-orientated, and I am sure that in any class, they would rather fly Emirates, that is usually seen (whether it is right or not) as a more "exclusive" product than Western carriers (even if it is a 10-abreast B777 in Economy). You would rather brag with your friends that you flew to NYC on holiday with Emirates and not with Alitalia or Delta  .

Personally, I think that this route could work better than HAM-JFK. My only concern would be competition (4 carriers already... but it must be something of interesting there if SQ wanted to fly it too) and yields (MXP-US tends to be quite cheap).

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: max999
Posted 2013-04-08 06:50:56 and read 16117 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
so Alitalia is fighting for survival and the Italian government grants Emirates this route?

European governents seem to like Emirates more than their own airlines. I just don't undertand

as for Emirates, I don't blame them for cashing in on European generosity.. For them Europe is the gift that keeps on giving

Looking at this from another perspective, the Italian government is looking out for consumers...more competition means better prices. And more flights at lower prices can mean additional economic activity as people travel to and from Milan.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: okapi
Posted 2013-04-08 06:57:40 and read 16038 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 17):

I agree with you about Italians and brands in general, my wife is Italian and a real brand lover as one could expect. When it comes to aviation though, most people don't care if they fly on an Airbus or a Boeing, let alone the concept of airline loyalty. EasyJet and Ryanair have grown very well in Italy.

There are two kinds of travellers (if not many more of course), those who pay for their own ticket and those who don't. Nowadays, many business people will fly on company tickets in economy, no matter the distance. Budgets are tight hence yields for airlines. As you mentionned it, the MXP to US routes are not generating super profits. I'm pretty sure the finance department at EK has done its homework very well and their recent large lounge opened there is a proof of their vision, however, I doubt their customer base will be that loyal, unless they speed up their intended agreement with easyJet to feed in more passengers on its routes.
I'm just wondering how a 773 can generate more profit on a route from MXP to JFK instead of flights to the DXB hub. Maybe the Emirates route has reached its capacity. Or maybe, the recent moves by Etihad and Skyteam has some kind of relation to these new flights.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: incitatus
Posted 2013-04-08 07:02:36 and read 15975 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 17):
EK hard product is going to be superior to any of its competitors

For 90-pound women the EK hard product is superior in 10-abreast coach. Indeed.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-04-08 07:09:44 and read 15899 times.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 13):
Of those, I would guess that AZ will be out first since they don't have a hub in MXP anyway
Quoting FSDan (Reply 13):

If not AZ, then my bet is AA.

Highly doubtful....my bet is that EK will get out first  . All the others have point-of-sale advantage on one or both sides of the Atlantic. EK has none...as has been mentioned, no matter how good a product a carrier may have, such fifth freedom flights are usually problematic for an 'outsider' (people will not think of EK as a 'go-to' airline for travel between NYC and Milan for example). On top of that, EK's schedules aren't particularly convenient (especially the eastbound with such a late arrival into MXP) for most business travelers (on either side of the Pond)...

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 17):
EK hard product is going to be superior to any of its competitors

Hmm...2-3-2 in J on EK, vs direct-aisle-access on either DL or AZ?. 3-4-3 in Y on EK vs 2-3-2 on DL/AA/UA or 2-4-2 on AZ? Don't think so...

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-08 07:21:07 and read 15778 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 17):
If premium PAXs were loyal to alliances, EK would have never risen the way they have. EK hard product is going to be superior to any of its competitors and J/F in EK is not usually more expensive than Western competitors.

This is more of a myth than anything. EK has publicly said it has trouble filling F and its J product is a mixed bag at best. The reason EK is successful has little to do with its premium product.

Quoting panamair (Reply 22):
.my bet is that EK will get out first

   They will have to fill the flight on the local market alone, plus low yield DXB traffic that EK doesn't want to take on the nonstop, and even lower double connecting traffic. There's no reason for EK to be in this market.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-04-08 07:53:26 and read 15193 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 12):
Another thought : it is time for the European Big Three to reconsider their hub strategy and develop long-haul routes from secondary cities, sometimes with the "help" of their ME partners...

They've been doing that for a long time in the form of JV's. BOS-LHR for AF/DL is one such example. Althought LHR is not a secondary city, it is also not a SkyTeam hub. UA's EWR-LIS or EWR-TXL is as much a LH flight as is a UA flight.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: hohd
Posted 2013-04-08 08:37:00 and read 14451 times.

I think this is the first time EK will fail. This flight is timed only for JFK-MXP passengers, only very few will go on this to DXB, so it needs nearly good yield and load to MXP. They have recenty devalued their frequent flyer awards, by introducing fuel surcharges on the award flights and the Skywards program is not that good anyway. It is easier to woo passengers to Middle East, India, SE Asia, Africa, but to Europe it will be more difficult. Lately EK is not the lowest cost option either (except for last minute tickets, which are not many).

I think they would be better served on a route like BOS-MAN-DXB or BOS-MXP-DXB (a new American city to DXB, plus BOS-MAN had some airline flying it, but now discontinued, so there will a fair amount of traffic).

And what happend to QRs Athens-JFK service, is it still on ?

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-04-08 08:39:44 and read 14383 times.

Quoting hohd (Reply 25):
I think this is the first time EK will fail.

Well, they already tried JFK-HAM-DXB some years back and that failed.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: TheAviator380
Posted 2013-04-08 09:18:19 and read 14187 times.

Quoting hohd (Reply 25):

Do you really think MAN-BOS route is that big to utilize 77W ? unless EK decide to use A330-200 ! Apart from that MAN-DXB is already on 3 flight daily 77W + 380 + 77W. I think it won't work. They can choose Brussels as a hop as 9W are doing well on BOM-Brussels-Newyork route.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-04-08 09:54:42 and read 13614 times.

Seems like erveryone forgot this one, but to me this announcement sounds like a smash on AF/KL CEO's face, after this:

"AF-KLM CEO Calls On Restrictions For Gulf Carriers"

Discussed on this thread some days ago.... :

AF-KLM CEO Calls On Restrictions For Gulf Carriers (by g500 Mar 31 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Would be interesting to see or hear an AF/KL reaction after this, as, after all, AZ is part of their game now...

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-04-08 10:05:00 and read 13815 times.

In 2012, MXP market sizes to NYC were as follows:

JFK...274,000 passengers

EWR...71,000 passengers

In comparison, HAM-NYC was 77,000 for EWR and 43,000 for JFK

So in hindsight, MXP-NYC is literally speaking 3 times bigger market sized segment than HAM-NYC + on MXP-JFK sector, only 76% (208,000) of the traffic is carried by the nonstop carriers hence what EK will do is badly hurt the carriers that have large one stop market share which include BA, IB, LX and LH as well as poach market share more away from AZ than the others as the others have large scale hubs at JFK to provide decent feeder service along with O&D.

Also note that via JFK, EK code shares with B6 so it will be targetting secondary U.S. cities too for this new flight.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-08 10:08:19 and read 13670 times.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 28):
Would be interesting to see or hear an AF/KL reaction after this, as, after all, AZ is part of their game now...

EK is going to be the biggest loser in this, but it could be a shot across the bow for AF/KL

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-04-08 10:23:54 and read 13387 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):

EK is going to be the biggest loser in this,

Well, I hope you're right, but I fear that EK will take the biggest market share out of MXP to NYC... Unless their product is far below competition and prices are drastically higher, I don't see why it couldn't work...

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-04-08 10:31:28 and read 13237 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 27):
poach market share more away from AZ than the others as the others have large scale hubs at JFK to provide decent feeder service along with O&D.

AZ and DL essentially operate as one between MXP and JFK since they have a metal-neutral JV; AZ isn't going to suffer more since it does have the same benefit as DL on the JFK side....

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-04-08 10:53:37 and read 12860 times.

Quoting panamair (Reply 20):
Highly doubtful....my bet is that EK will get out first . All the others have point-of-sale advantage on one or both sides of the Atlantic. EK has none...as has been mentioned, no matter how good a product a carrier may have, such fifth freedom flights are usually problematic for an 'outsider' (people will not think of EK as a 'go-to' airline for travel between NYC and Milan for example).

Don't underestimate EK's brand name / aura, at least in Europe (where is undoubtedly more powerful than in the US). Certainly for many Europeans, the perception is that Emirates (or SQ or QR) is a superior product (whether they are right or not) than your average Euro/US carrier. And in the case of the MXP-JFK you have Alitalia (an airline abhorred by many Italians) and DL/UA which are not particularly well-known for the average Italian, and probably are seen just like the less bad of the options. I agree that selling it on the US side might be more complicated (two US airlines... the average NYorker will not care whether there is a new route in their airports)

So you have a brand that needs to further presentation in Italy (Emirates) and the same for the destination (New York). Making potential customers think as EK an airline to fly them to the US instead of Asia might take some more time, but Emirates is quite good at flooding cities with advertisements. And even the media!... I remember when SQ started BCN-GRU... how the local media was every other day with how Singapore Airlines bet on BCN, and how now you could fly a "5-star carrier" to Sao Paulo instead of flying IB... at the end Iberia pulled out BCN-GRU and SQ is still flying even after the demise of JK.

[Edited 2013-04-08 10:55:16]

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: reifel
Posted 2013-04-08 11:29:32 and read 12246 times.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 13):
That will make four airlines with a daily flight on JFK-MXP: DL, AA, AZ, and EK (+ UA on EWR-MXP). Of those, I would guess that AZ will be out first since they don't have a hub in MXP anyway, and the JFK-MXP service is one of only two longhaul routes they have from MXP (the other being MXP-NRT).

Not that sure. AZ can feed in JFK with DL and although they do not have a hub in MXP, they do feed there. I flew several times via MXP, no matter if it's from NRT, PRG, BRU, AUH... It all fits.
AA can feed in JFK, but has difficult feed in MXP (basically only AB), DL is similar to AZ (they codeshare anyway).
EK would really be only O/D demand, and the rates will be probably very low. Well they have this strange Easyjet corporation, but this is probably useless.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: LOWS
Posted 2013-04-08 12:31:25 and read 11496 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 12):
Only the LH group seems a bit isolated.

LH has TK in Star.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 16):
You would rather brag with your friends that you flew to NYC on holiday with Emirates and not with Alitalia or Delta

Who really says "Oh I flew Emirates/Delta/Ryanair and did XYZ in New York" versus "Oh, I stayed at the SwissĂ´tel in New York and did ABC in New York" ?

Hint: people on this website would say the first one, normal people say the second one.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: N62NA
Posted 2013-04-08 13:50:18 and read 10483 times.

Why is EK ignoring EWR and the entire half of the NYC area west of the Hudson River?

There's lots of strong competition at JFK, there's just 1 airline to compete with at EWR.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-04-08 14:02:38 and read 10385 times.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 34):
Why is EK ignoring EWR and the entire half of the NYC area west of the Hudson River?
There's lots of strong competition at JFK, there's just 1 airline to compete with at EWR.

I actually asked this question to a former EK Country Manager based in North America in 2008 and she immediately said "according to hdq, yield and prestige at JFK is better than EWR".

Maybe 5 years down the road if EK decide on making NYC 4 daily, they might consider the new flight headed to EWR instead of JFK.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: okapi
Posted 2013-04-08 14:04:18 and read 10334 times.

Here's the official link to the Emirates press release: http://www.theemiratesgroup.com/engl.../news-details.aspx?article=1185653

Apparently, EK is very much interested in giving its passengers a third option between New York and Dubai but another non-stop flight might not be justified. Picking up passengers en-route in a city where there is both a demand and the conditions to operate seems to be the right move. To be honest, I still don't understand why the Italian politicians have allowed such a move. For sure, no other country in EU would have allowed that, not even the UK (through LHR).

Cargo will also play an important role in this new venture and probably help cover the losses of a still very weak market.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 27):

True, there's a big market ex-MXP towards US East Coast, however, yields are generally very poor in low season. If I remember correctly, AA used to fly its route only half the year. That said, I'm pretty sure the EU majors will know how to fight back. Many US passengers do prefer flying BA for linguistic reasons while both budget conscious and premium pax do enjoy the premium offers by LX, LH or even AF/KL (mainly for miles reason).
EK will surely generate more traffic than it will "steal" from the well established players.

As usual, time will tell.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: by738
Posted 2013-04-08 15:08:44 and read 9615 times.

If they're starting this, could we see others ?

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: WROORD
Posted 2013-04-08 17:26:25 and read 8596 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 12):
This route if confirmed can be successful for EK : there is a fair amount of O&D between NYC and Northern Italy + the plane will already be partly feeded by pax from/to Dubai.

They count on B6 giving them some feed at JFK and EZY in MXP.

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
so Alitalia is fighting for survival and the Italian government grants Emirates this route?

Shouldn't this be also up to FAA to approve as EK is not a EU carrier and open skies provisions are not applicable here.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-04-08 17:44:20 and read 8486 times.

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
European governents seem to like Emirates more than their own airlines. I just don't undertand

They like Emirates and the European aerospace industry, I don't think EK would've ordered 160 A380s/350s without generous access to Europe. Plus when you're so wealthy most folks "like" you and want to be your "friends", this rule not only applies to individuals but countries as well.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: AF185
Posted 2013-04-08 21:45:38 and read 7100 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 16):
You would rather brag with your friends that you flew to NYC on holiday with Emirates and not with Alitalia or Delta

It is undeniable Emirates has created a real strong PR and "trendy model", also thanks to the rise of Dubai has an International city hub. This attracts passengers, even if some were before using more efficient P2P services instead of 1 connection.

But, I believe every trend becomes boring and start losing its appeal eventually (like consumer goods), and I now hear many friends actualy bragging around the fact they fly direct and have shorter flight time, even if they have to pay USD100/200 more..

EK will be very sustainable in the long term, but we can't rule out that one day it may actually sound kind of lousy to say "I'm flying through Dubai" instead of "I'm flying direct"

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-04-08 21:48:29 and read 7080 times.

9W should have done this when they had a chance  .

Saludos,
Alex

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: Mah4546
Posted 2013-04-08 22:01:12 and read 7017 times.

Quoting okapi (Reply 36):
True, there's a big market ex-MXP towards US East Coast, however, yields are generally very poor in low season.

It is the reverse. The market is quite small - and the demand is pretty much NYC and Miami (LA and SF are the next two largest, but both lag quite behind those two), but yields are the best in Italy, and arguably all of Southern Europe, unlike the rest of Italy, it can fill a J cabin in the winter.

Quoting okapi (Reply 36):
If I remember correctly, AA used to fly its route only half the year.

AA has never operated JFKMXP - one of its top performing trans-Atlantics - less than year-round.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: hohd
Posted 2013-04-09 06:20:54 and read 4733 times.

Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 25):

The BOS-MAN-DXB assumes that atleast half the passengers go on to DXB from BOS so they need to fill up only 1/2 the plane for BOS-MAN. The same is not true with JFK-MXP-DXB where very few will be going to DXB, since they have a choice of two other nonstop flights plus one of them is just an hour later and arrives earlier.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-09 06:54:21 and read 4624 times.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 38):

They count on B6 giving them some feed at JFK and EZY in MXP.

This would result in less than a handful of pax on the JFK end, and near zero with U2. Only 400 more seats to go 
Quoting AF185 (Reply 40):
It is undeniable Emirates has created a real strong PR and "trendy model",

Where has "PR" or "trendiness" ever translated into success for an airline, ever?

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 41):
9W should have done this when they had a chance

It's not going to work for EK and it definitely would not work for 9W.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: TheAviator380
Posted 2013-04-09 07:28:59 and read 4547 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 41):

I think they wanted to start DEL-MXP or BOM-MXP few months ago, isn't it? They doing well India-US/Canada flights via Brussels so why would they want to change it to MXP? only BOM or DEL-MXP would do they using their A330's.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-04-09 07:35:27 and read 4528 times.

Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 25):

Do you really think MAN-BOS route is that big to utilize 77W ?

If EK can make DXB-LIS work with a 77W they sure as heck can make DXB-MAN-BOS work   As Tim Clark as said many times, they create their own market.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-09 07:42:22 and read 4493 times.

Quoting TheAviator380 (Reply 45):

I think they wanted to start DEL-MXP or BOM-MXP few months ago, isn't it?

DELMXP just ended in JAN13

Quoting airbazar (Reply 46):
As Tim Clark as said many times, they create their own market.

To DXB and beyond, yes. Standalone tags, no. They're human just like everyone else.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-04-09 08:21:18 and read 4356 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
Where has "PR" or "trendiness" ever translated into success for an airline, ever?

It did a lot for JetBlue. From the inflight TV, to the blue chips, JetBlue got a lot of marketing buzz in it's early years. Of course, they also had low costs and a bunch of NYC markets in need of competition.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
This would result in less than a handful of pax on the JFK end,

Not so sure about that. B6 could conceivably feed you 40-50 passengers a day on a route like that. Certainly not enough to fill a 777, but a start.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-04-09 08:29:50 and read 4348 times.

EK has 5th freedom traffic rights on CDG-LAX which is currently dominated by AF (17 weekly B777s) and TN (Air Tahiti) daily A343.

Market size is 390,000 pax in 2012 and AF controls 50% of it where as TN has 18% market share.

If EK's A380s cannot operate nonstop with a full payload to/from LAX, I would suggest the 2nd daily service to be a daily an A380 daily from DXB via CDG. The product of EK's A380 along with its capacity will definitely make it a serious contender on this route as it will first eat into the 32% one stop market share held by other airlines (125,000 pax) plus as well TN's in particular more so than AFs.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: context
Posted 2013-04-09 08:46:22 and read 4284 times.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 11):

I think you're right that this isn't great for leasure travelers but it's perfect for the fashion industry. This will be just in time for the Spring / Summer shows which are in the first part of September this year in Milan.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-09 08:58:44 and read 4254 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 48):
It did a lot for JetBlue. From the inflight TV, to the blue chips, JetBlue got a lot of marketing buzz in it's early years. Of course, they also had low costs and a bunch of NYC markets in need of competition.

I don't know that the PR made much of a difference; ultimately they were CHEAP in a market that until B6 wasn't that cheap.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 49):
it will first eat into the 32% one stop market share held by other airlines

The fare for this traffic is terrible.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-04-09 10:59:01 and read 4065 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 51):
The fare for this traffic is terrible.

not really...average economy class fare for CDG-LAX-CDG in 2012 was $1200 for the one stop carriers and for AF it was $1500

Also with regards to an earlier query, other MXP-USA market sizes in 2012 were as follows:

MIA 81,000
LAX 42,000
SFO 34,000
ORD 26,000
BOS 14,000
ATL 12,000
IAD 7,000
IAH 6,000
CLT 6,000
MCO 6,000
DFW 6,000
PHL 5,000

[Edited 2013-04-09 11:09:25]

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-04-09 11:14:54 and read 3992 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 51):
I don't know that the PR made much of a difference; ultimately they were CHEAP in a market that until B6 wasn't that cheap.

But isn't that largely true for EK as well. They'll have the PR (whatever it's worth) and they'll be cheap. I'm guessing they can undercut DL/AZ by a significant margin.

That's not to say EK will make money on this route. DL/AZ obviously have alliance advantages and hub connectivity that EK does not have. I suspect EK will be lucky to break even on this venture, but in the process they could really trash yields for DL/AZ.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: Mah4546
Posted 2013-04-09 11:19:31 and read 3993 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 52):
Also with regards to an earlier query, other MXP-USA market sizes in 2012 were as follows:

That doesn't account for LIN. LINMIA alone is close to 25-30,000 annual boardings.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 52):
not really...average economy class fare for CDG-LAX-CDG in 2012 was $1200 for the one stop carriers and for AF it was $1500

Round-trip? Those fares suck.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-04-09 11:57:22 and read 3884 times.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 54):
Round-trip? Those fares suck.

yes round trip economy class but I dont understand why you would say that? You pay less to fly LAX-DXB/IKA/CAI/India/HKG/MNL which are much longer flights than LAX-CDG.

In addition, these are average economy class fares and there is a lot of J class demand too on this sector which in turn increases the overall average fare of this route.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 54):
That doesn't account for LIN. LINMIA alone is close to 25-30,000 annual boardings.

LIN-MIA in 2012 was 23,000...correct  

Other big LIN-USA markets were:

JFK 35,000
LAX 31,000
SFO 23,000
BOS 17,000
ORD 16,000
IAH 12,000
EWR 11,000
IAD 9,000

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: Mah4546
Posted 2013-04-09 12:00:10 and read 3883 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 55):
yes round trip economy class but I dont understand why you would say that?

Because that's $600 each-way. Which is only ok from the East Coast and terrible from the West Coast.

Want good EU-U.S. fares? Look at IAHAMS, IADBRU, MIAZRH, and just about anywhere from London. Those are good farse. $600 each way from the West Coast sucks.

The fact that you pay less to fly those other markets from LA just means those markets have average fares that suck even worse.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-09 12:04:08 and read 3848 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 52):
not really...average economy class fare for CDG-LAX-CDG in 2012 was $1200 for the one stop carriers and for AF it was $1500

It is, and EK will get a discount to the prevailing far since it has zero footprint in either Paris or Los Angeles, and no ability to revenue manage since it has no flow opportunities on either end

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-04-09 12:15:48 and read 3806 times.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 56):
Want good EU-U.S. fares? Look at IAHAMS, IADBRU, MIAZRH, and just about anywhere from London. Those are good farse. $600 each way from the West Coast sucks.

With the exception of LON, all the other markets you have mentioned do not have the sheer volume that CDG-LAX has hence naturally the fares would average out to be lower as IAH-AMS, IAD-BRU and MIA-ZRH have higher yielding clientele and very little VFR/leisure (which CDG-LAX has a lot of).

As far as LHR is concerned, its average fares in economy class round trip to LAX/SFO in 2012 were as follows:

LHR-LAX...US$ 1104 r/t so cheaper than CDG-LAX my friend

LHR-SFO...US$ 1300 r/t

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-04-09 12:34:46 and read 3755 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 35):
she immediately said "according to hdq, yield and prestige at JFK is better than EWR".

I'll ignore prestige, but is yield lower at EWR as CO/UA has the market sewn up? I expect EK to eventually fly to EWR, but when? Without knowing their profits (yeilds) at JFK, I cannot make a good estimate.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 41):

9W should have done this when they had a chance

   With empty F seats on their 777s?  
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 48):
B6 could conceivably feed you 40-50 passengers a day on a route like that.

At least that many. I see no reason they couldn't fill more. Once B6 has domestic F, I think they'll be a far more attractive code-share partner. This is a win-win tieup. But is it enough? EK's 77Ws have 360 seats and they won't have DL's connections for the market.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: N62NA
Posted 2013-04-09 12:35:37 and read 3755 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 35):
I actually asked this question to a former EK Country Manager based in North America in 2008 and she immediately said "according to hdq, yield and prestige at JFK is better than EWR".

Wow, that's quite a bold statement (and a correct one). The EWR fans here at a.net will be dismayed.

But I do think it's only a matter of years before they do serve EWR too - probably with their smallest aircraft.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: behramjee
Posted 2013-04-09 12:46:34 and read 3723 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 59):
I'll ignore prestige, but is yield lower at EWR as CO/UA has the market sewn up? I expect EK to eventually fly to EWR, but when? Without knowing their profits (yeilds) at JFK, I cannot make a good estimate.

remember QR launched NYC via GVA with flights to EWR initially using A330s...they switched to JFK too within a couple of years of launching EWR in spite of them having a big code share deal with CO at that time.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-09 12:59:44 and read 3654 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 61):
remember QR launched NYC via GVA with flights to EWR initially using A330s...

Well, that was just dumb much like HAMJFK or MXPJFK

Quoting behramjee (Reply 58):
As far as LHR is concerned, its average fares in economy class round trip to LAX/SFO in 2012 were as follows:

What source are you using?

Quoting N62NA (Reply 60):
Wow, that's quite a bold statement (and a correct one). The EWR fans here at a.net will be dismayed.

It's more complex than that--yields out of EWR can be just as strong if not stronger, and there certainly is less B6 in town.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: L0VE2FLY
Posted 2013-04-09 13:55:47 and read 3515 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 41):
9W should have done this when they had a chance .

Instead of flying all over the place 9W should focus on their BRU hub, with AI's exit from LAX there's no direct flights between the US West Coast & India, they should be able to make it work if not with a 77W definitely with an A332.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: AF185
Posted 2013-04-09 20:44:09 and read 3195 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
Where has "PR" or "trendiness" ever translated into success for an airline, ever?
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 48):
It did a lot for JetBlue. From the inflight TV, to the blue chips, JetBlue got a lot of marketing buzz in it's early years. Of course, they also had low costs and a bunch of NYC markets in need of competition.

"PR" alone is obviously worthless, but once backed with a solid product/service, right pricing and differentiated offer, it becomes a key factor to attract passengers; especially for newly launched or "emerging" airlines.

VS used "PR" extensively in order to promote their in-flight experience, and trendiness. Virgin name and SRB appearing in a serie like "FRIENDS" is an example.

TK and EK also use sport teams and players to promote their airlines, and create some trendiness (Football clubs sponsoring, European Basketball league, Lionel Messi, Kobe Bryant among others).

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: upwardfacing
Posted 2013-04-09 23:49:42 and read 2974 times.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 35):
I actually asked this question to a former EK Country Manager based in North America in 2008 and she immediately said "according to hdq, yield and prestige at JFK is better than EWR".

Is this dynamic the same today in 2013 as it was in 2008?

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: Aquila3
Posted 2013-04-10 00:35:38 and read 2910 times.

I see not much interest of Italians to this thread, so , here is my humble opinion:
I very welcome this new EK route, since gives us a new choice for MXP- North-East USA. I would likely to give it a try next winter. That's one of the few positive news that I have heard from a city (Milan) and a Country that seems in full demise otherwise.
The competition on the route is not so strong anyway, I feel.
AZ is obviously not so interested in MXP and anyway has a very low appeal to many people in Italy and especially here in the North. Rightly so I would say. Anyway it seems so that AZ would not be a problem (for their competitors, not for us unfortunately) for long time more.
The other American Carriers operating the route really do not shine for their products, while being miles ahead of AZ/AF, easy task.
Then you are left with a stopover in CDG (God forbid!) or AMS (hopefully much better, but probably with the risk to fly AZ on the domestic route). For me the alternative and best choice has always been a Star ticket either via FRA, MUC or ZRH . But anyway that's not a direct flight and and your timing would be affected.
All the above is true especially for a business trip in J or F, since going overseas 10-abreast for me (I am quite oversized) is not an option if I have to work the day after.

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: ekgold
Posted 2013-04-10 02:22:04 and read 2753 times.

Dont be surprised is this is Freight driven. The 77W is a wonderful freighter that has the benefits of carrying Pax as well. EK are not averse to flying these highly capable aircraft on shorter missions to take advantage of higher MTOW that the 77W provides

Topic: RE: EK Launch Milan - New York
Username: BA677
Posted 2013-04-10 04:01:39 and read 2614 times.

I think that this has a good possibility to work as Emirates has a good strong brand awareness in Europe now days. Maybe this could be a start of a new development strategy for them and they are testing the waters. We could see maybe more routs announced if it goes well. Also for many members of Skywards program based in Europe, they will have more opportunities in earning miles and status with them on the Europe North America route. Their only other option they have on the program is TAP at the moment involving a connection.

Lets hope maybe we could see daily A380 even from the likes of LGW JFK and MAN JFK.  


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