Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5728877/

Topic: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2013-04-02 13:02:15 and read 17921 times.

Hope this doesn't breach rules, I have no affiliation with this venture but thought you guys should know - ATI might operate a passenger flight in the USA (SMF to LAS is the most likely route) with a DC-8 before the type is retired forever in the middle of 2013.

Nothing confirmed but register your interest here -
http://www.henrytenby.com/DC-8charter.html

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-04-02 13:20:48 and read 17820 times.

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
before the type is retired forever in the middle of 2013.

I was reading in the latest Airliner World that there are only 14 DC8's left in service world-wide.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-04-02 13:26:41 and read 17782 times.

Oh that's tempting, $1500 is steep, but what an experience!

Pretty harsh requirements about putting your name down mind, takes me right out as I already have a bunch of meetings during the period. I could re-arrange them, but I can't just blanket out my availability for a whole period like that until a date is decided.


Dan  

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: MEA-707
Posted 2013-04-02 14:06:50 and read 17573 times.

yeah seems a bit amateuristic organization...perhaps Classic Jet Tours should repeat a trip like that again. They write '90% sure' but no fines or fees when you back out... Also they don't seem to sell the middle seats? I am willing to promise not to occupy a window longer then a few minutes inflight if it lowers my ticket price. It was no problem at all at Seans flight last year that all seats were taken, people could and did stroll around in the cargo bay and kitchen so there was plenty of window time for everyone.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: Yflyer
Posted 2013-04-02 14:13:54 and read 17523 times.

It's tempting, especially since this would be local for me, but $1500 is a little too steep for me...

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-04-02 16:25:17 and read 17187 times.

And they don't even have the Polomar seats! Gotta have those for the whole experience.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-04-02 16:49:26 and read 17106 times.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 1):
I was reading in the latest Airliner World that there are only 14 DC8's left in service world-wide.

Wow, that's a rapid decrease even in the past few years. Anyone know how many civilian 707s are left in service?

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: StudeDave
Posted 2013-04-02 17:22:45 and read 17015 times.

I'm good. I've flown on one of those birds twice already~

The first flight was from Singapore to Diego Garcia.
The second was on my return just shy of a year later.

It was something alright!!!




StudeDave

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2013-04-02 17:51:28 and read 16923 times.

Quoting StudeDave (Reply 7):

Did your DC-8 flight have just 32 seats in the aft section of the plane with the majority being cargo between the passenger cabin and the cockpit? I haven't flown on them but several years ago they let me check out the 32 seat passenger cabin.
I wish their DC-8's had the Palomar seats and curtains. Those were the classic DC-8's. I flew on two of them as a kid on Eastern and Delta.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Sam Chui
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ellis M. Chernoff

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: FI642
Posted 2013-04-02 17:51:41 and read 16923 times.

Thankfully I got to fly the DC-8 many times across the North Atlantic.

Flying through turbulence and watching the engines bob up and down.

If you can afford it, and have the time, GO!

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2013-04-02 17:57:45 and read 16884 times.

Quoting FI642 (Reply 9):

Did you ever get to fly on the classic DC-8's, the one with the Palomar seats and curtains on the windows?

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: HAWAIIAN932
Posted 2013-04-03 00:50:28 and read 15907 times.

Back in the late 60's I flew a Delta DC-8 from LAX to SAN. One-way ticket price was $ 7.62. Amazing !! I also got to fly Hawaiian DC-8 from LAX to Kahului in the early 90's. My only other DC-8 flight was with Braniff International from LAX to SFO. I loved flying those old birds. I was lucky enough to fly 707's also. American, Western and Caribbean Airways. I also got to fly the 720 version a few times. Once with Western and once with Continental LAX-Hilo in 1973.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: LCYFlyer
Posted 2013-04-03 01:06:59 and read 15729 times.

Awesome! It's a shame that I can not come along as my finals will be by the end on june.
Thumbs up for taking the time to organize this special flight.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: tonymctigue
Posted 2013-04-03 04:54:13 and read 13806 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 6):
Wow, that's a rapid decrease even in the past few years. Anyone know how many civilian 707s are left in service?

Yes indeed. It was only a few years ago when there were still a surprisingly large number of DC-8s in service (something on the order of 50) comfortable outnumbering the number of in service B707s at the time. Douglas certainly did know how to build them to last. They used to visit SNN on a resonably regular basis, normally transporting race horses if I'm not mistaking. I think like so many of the classics that outlived their original intended useful lifespan the recent hike in fuel prices that we've all accepted is here to stay not to mention how diffucult it must be to come by spares these days has finally caught up with these birds. I'd say the DC-10 will follow pretty soon.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-04-03 06:02:22 and read 12956 times.

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 13):
I'd say the DC-10 will follow pretty soon

That is why I am sooooo thankful FX brings the -10 into ROC during evening daylight ! I always try to run down and get some shots when work and the sun cooperate. Soon enough they will be replaced by the 763's .

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: SJCMSP
Posted 2013-04-03 06:28:43 and read 12606 times.

Wow, that would be cool! My last DC-8 flight was in 1987. It was a UA flight ORD-SJC. I flew that route on DC-8s several times as a kid in the early 80s.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-04-03 07:30:09 and read 11727 times.

I have flown three times on a DC-8, and frankly the most vivid recollection I have is the disappointing lack of windows. I once had a window seat, only to discover that it was useless as the seat was aligned with a blank wall. While I appreciate the ruggedness of the DC-8, I certainly would not pay $1500 to fly on one.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: MD80Nut
Posted 2013-04-03 07:44:26 and read 11552 times.

Man, I'd love to go, but there's no way. Not only is $ 1,500.00 a little steep, I'd also have to fly from Miami to Sacramento to catch the DC-8-62. Plus I'd have to schedule it well in advance, not knowing the dates for the charter is a problem. Too bad, that's the only DC-8 size I haven't flown.

I got to fly DC-8s with Eastern (-21, -51, -61), Delta (-51,-61,-71), Viasa (-52 or -53, -63), KLM (-52 or -53) and Capitol (-61). A great airplane for sure.

Cheers, Ralph

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: MrBuzzcut
Posted 2013-04-03 09:30:21 and read 10222 times.

Wow, the ticket price if you were paying your own way (which rarely happened) for HNL-AWK or AWK-HNL was $1360 on ATI just a couple of years ago, and that's a 4.5 hour trip. No way I'd pay $1500.
So, if you want a DC-8 ride, get a job at AWK soon, before ATI retires the type...I think they're still operating a between Hickam and Kwaj as well, though I'm not totally sure about that one.

It is a nice ride, and the crews are friendly and attentive. There was even hot meal service

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-04-03 09:54:31 and read 9934 times.

Even though he said "irregardless", it would be an attractive offer for someone who had never flown on a DC-8, and this likely would be the last opportunity.

It has been many decades since a Palomar equipped DC-8 carried passengers. I am trying to figure out when the last Palomar DC-8 flew, any guesses? By my best guess, AC's last one carried passengers in 1977/78.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: PI4EVER
Posted 2013-04-03 10:03:40 and read 9812 times.

The March 2013 issue of Airliner World has a report on the May 2012 trip this organization made on the ATI DC-8 trip SMF-LGB. All 30 seats were supposedly sold out on the first day of sale, and yes the center seats were occupied. "California Dreaming DC-8 Style" begins on page 56 with a well written narrative with pictures.
Airliner World is sold at Barnes & Noble.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: cschleic
Posted 2013-04-03 10:51:29 and read 9080 times.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
perhaps Classic Jet Tours should repeat a trip like that again

Seems like there's more than adequate demand and, as long as the ATI plane can be chartered, seems like it could be a win-win for everyone.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: StudeDave
Posted 2013-04-03 10:53:19 and read 9050 times.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 8):
Did your DC-8 flight have just 32 seats in the aft section of the plane with the majority being cargo between the passenger cabin and the cockpit?


Yup- just 32 seats. As far as I can remember- all the ATI flights on/off the island were those birds.
The only 'all pax' stuff I saw was the monthly 'rotator' (a North American 767) and the quarterly A-340 from Philippines Airlines.




StudeDave

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-04-03 11:17:53 and read 8685 times.

Now if it were a 727 or 747SP......  

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-04-03 15:29:34 and read 6878 times.

Quoting HAWAIIAN932 (Reply 11):
Back in the late 60's I flew a Delta DC-8 from LAX to SAN. One-way ticket price was $ 7.62.

$7.62 in the 1960s is equivalent to $50 to $60 today with inflation.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2013-04-04 03:20:21 and read 6750 times.

According to the organiser, the aircraft will be grounded when it runs out of hours sometime before the end of July (June is more likely) before a heavy check, which ATI won't do. They need to schedule the remaining flight hours carefully to ensure they can fulfil their obligations to their dayjob, flying for the USAF. Therefore this flight has to be confirmed asap. Right now it hasn't hit the numbers. If you're interested, write in now, or if you know people who might be interested, contact them now.

This is it - the DC-8 window is about to close forever. Are you going to take one last look?

[Edited 2013-04-04 03:49:07]

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: ImperialEagle
Posted 2013-04-04 04:35:02 and read 6652 times.

This sounds like a great opportunity for those who have never experienced an -8.
There is nothing quite like them.
At least the -62 is an original model. If the aircraft lacks the pneumatic start sounds of the -50 series or the old Palomar seats it shouldn't be a deterrent. Half a sale is better than no sale at all! If you are sitting behind the wing on a -62 the thrust is so powerful on take-off it will rattle the windows. Also if you are sitting far enough aft you might see a fire-ball or two during reverse thrust as there is a tendency for compressor-stall. It's all good.

Go for it!

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: b2319
Posted 2013-04-04 05:40:53 and read 6701 times.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 23):
Now if it were a 727 or 747SP......

It would be MUCH easier to fly as a passenger in 2013.

Trust me.

B-2319

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: beechnut
Posted 2013-04-04 12:48:19 and read 6413 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 19):
Even though he said "irregardless", it would be an attractive offer for someone who had never flown on a DC-8, and this likely would be the last opportunity.

It has been many decades since a Palomar equipped DC-8 carried passengers. I am trying to figure out when the last Palomar DC-8 flew, any guesses? By my best guess, AC's last one carried passengers in 1977/78.

I flew on a Palomar DC-8 in either Dec. 81 or Jan. 82. I can't recall which, as it was over the Christmas holidays, and I don't recall if I came home before or after Jan. 1st. The flight was YVR-YOW, on CP Air, and was one of the last short-body CP DC-8 flights as I believe they were all gone by early '82. The trip out had been on a -63 which soldiered on a while longer.

At the time I was a newly minted C172 driver; didn't know much about DC-8s and certainly didn't know anything about Palomar seats but I vividly recall thinking how weird the seats were, with the air vent in the seat back etc. I don't recall the aircraft being anything spectacular, but the DC-8-63 was a real beast, and produced one of the roughest landings I've ever experienced on an airliner; the shorty was a real greaser by comparison. I knew a CP DC-8 captain quite well and he confirmed that the 63 was, indeed, a beast to fly, easy to score a tail strike with it. He thought he'd been promoted to heaven when he went from the DC-8 to the DC-10.

Beech

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: MrBuzzcut
Posted 2013-04-04 14:50:43 and read 6283 times.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 25):
According to the organiser, the aircraft will be grounded when it runs out of hours sometime before the end of July (June is more likely) before a heavy check, which ATI won't do.

From what I understand, that's what they've been doing with all of the combis...retire them as they come up for their next HMV (which is why their 70-series combi aircraft are gone now-one of those was my last ride out of AWK, have some good take off video of it).

Is there anywhere you could even get a heavy check done on a DC-8? I wonder what the cost would be.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2013-04-04 18:17:03 and read 6159 times.

Quoting beechnut (Reply 28):
At the time I was a newly minted C172 driver; didn't know much about DC-8s and certainly didn't know anything about Palomar seats but I vividly recall thinking how weird the seats were, with the air vent in the seat back etc. I don't recall the aircraft being anything spectacular, but the DC-8-63 was a real beast, and produced one of the roughest landings I've ever experienced on an airliner; the shorty was a real greaser by comparison. I knew a CP DC-8 captain quite well and he confirmed that the 63 was, indeed, a beast to fly, easy to score a tail strike with it. He thought he'd been promoted to heaven when he went from the DC-8 to the DC-10.

I wouldn't call the DC-8-63 a beast - more like a Mack truck. I flew DC-8s of all sizes almost 5,000 hours - it was my first jet.

As far as tail strikes went, you always made the initial rotation to 9 degrees pitch until solidly airborne, then continued up to 15 degrees or so. This worked in all DC-8 sizes. I was with a captain that had only flown the short body models and he wanged the tail skid good on takeoff from PHL to FRA. But the tail skid was designed with a hydraulic strut built in and it didn't hurt a thing. The airplane did reverberate like a tuning fork, though!

The only thing about landing the -61/-63 was similar to the 727 - don't even think about pulling the power off until the flare was well established. I will admit that the DC-8 required the most effort to do a smooth job of any jet I've ever flown. But I love the old girl. Taxing out at BWI last month in my current ride, the A321 I saw an ATI -63 takeoff. It may well have been the last time I watched a DC-8 thunder into the sky...

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-04-05 10:05:22 and read 5801 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 19):
It has been many decades since a Palomar equipped DC-8 carried passengers. I am trying to figure out when the last Palomar DC-8 flew, any guesses? By my best guess, AC's last one carried passengers in 1977/78.

In 1988, I flew on Faucett Peru from Lima to Cuzco roundtrip. Ex UAL DC-8 both ways, complete with Palomar seats (and UAL logos next to the reading lights).


It would be great to get my hands on a set of Palomar seats, would look great in the living room.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-04-05 10:12:20 and read 5776 times.

Quoting b2319 (Reply 27):
Quoting United_fan (Reply 23):
Now if it were a 727 or 747SP......

It would be MUCH easier to fly as a passenger in 2013.

Trust me.

B-2319

I meant spending the $1500 part. Though neither are in abundance anymore. Geez,I remember when we would get 727's everyday in ROC.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2013-04-05 11:00:17 and read 5751 times.

Latest news is Henry Tenby only had 20 sign-ups, so it looks like the flight won't happen. He needed 32. If you know 12 people who would like to fly on this old girl, better email them right now! Otherwise - as looks likely at this point - it won't happen, and Sean Burris' Classic Jet Tours trip last year from Sacramento to Long Beach on 26 May 2012 was history's last bookable DC-8 flight. Remember that date for the history books folks!

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: spinkid
Posted 2013-04-05 12:51:48 and read 5649 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 19):
Even though he said "irregardless", it would be an attractive offer for someone who had never flown on a DC-8, and this likely would be the last opportunity.

haha, that was my first reaction upon seeing that word as well.

$1500 is still pretty steep, but I appreciate them putting up the effort.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-04-05 13:12:16 and read 5646 times.

Quoting beechnut (Reply 28):
I flew on a Palomar DC-8 in either Dec. 81 or Jan. 82. I can't recall which, as it was over the Christmas holidays, and I don't recall if I came home before or after Jan. 1st. The flight was YVR-YOW, on CP Air, and was one of the last short-body CP DC-8 flights as I believe they were all gone by early '82. The trip out had been on a -63 which soldiered on a while longer.

It couldn't possibly have been a CP DC-8 with the original Palomar seats in 1981/82. Those seats disappeared around 1973/74 when all CP's short-body DC-8s had new interiors installed, including new seats, wall panels (replacing the curtains with sliding window shades), ceiling panels, overhead bins (not very big, much like those on many Boeing narrowbodies starting in the late '70s), and an inflight entertainment system (audio only). The new interiors made the CP DC-8-43s (and one -53) look like new aircraft inside.

The -63s also got new seats, overhead bins and the audio-only IFE system but they didn't need the new wall panels as all 60-series DC-8s were built with sliding window shades to replace the curtains on early models..

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: cubastar
Posted 2013-04-05 14:02:23 and read 5585 times.

Quoting FI642 (Reply 9):
Flying through turbulence and watching the engines bob up and down.

We used to get a good many passenger comments on those engines on the -51's and -61-s. They truly wallowed and bounced around in even light turbulence. The DC-8 did not have speed brakes, but the inboards (#2 and 3) could be reversed in flight to slow down and/or to aid in descent. Quite interesting for the pax to seek the engine fan doors open up while in reverse in flight.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-04-05 14:30:27 and read 5547 times.

Quoting cubastar (Reply 36):
Quoting FI642 (Reply 9):
Flying through turbulence and watching the engines bob up and down.

We used to get a good many passenger comments on those engines on the -51's and -61-s. They truly wallowed and bounced around in even light turbulence.

But much less than on 707s. Engines on 707s seemed to have very flexible pylon structures. The DC-8 engines in turbulence seemed stiff in comparison with the 707.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: LCYFlyer
Posted 2013-04-15 14:33:18 and read 4856 times.

So any news on this?

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: Dazed767
Posted 2013-04-15 20:49:21 and read 4611 times.

Email I got from him over the weekend, only 21 interested and needed 40 interested to proceed, so looks like a no go.

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: milesrich
Posted 2013-04-15 21:57:29 and read 4528 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 19):
It has been many decades since a Palomar equipped DC-8 carried passengers. I am trying to figure out when the last Palomar DC-8 flew, any guesses? By my best guess, AC's last one carried passengers in 1977/78.

My last Palomar Seat DC-8 flight was on United in 1979. Delta retired the last of their DC-8-51 in 1981 and they all had Palomar Seats. Does the United DC-8-52, N8066U, at the museum in Los Angeles still have an interior in it?

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: United727
Posted 2013-04-16 04:50:50 and read 4242 times.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 40):
Does the United DC-8-52, N8066U, at the museum in Los Angeles still have an interior in it?

I just sent a request for information to the museum to get your answer. Funny thing is, that plane IS NOT listed on the museums active aviation display list. Is it mainly just a gate guard now? We'll see!  

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: beechnut
Posted 2013-04-16 07:42:49 and read 4036 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
It couldn't possibly have been a CP DC-8 with the original Palomar seats in 1981/82. Those seats disappeared around 1973/74 when all CP's short-body DC-8s had new interiors installed, including new seats, wall panels (replacing the curtains with sliding window shades), ceiling panels, overhead bins (not very big, much like those on many Boeing narrowbodies starting in the late '70s), and an inflight entertainment system (audio only). The new interiors made the CP DC-8-43s (and one -53) look like new aircraft inside.

The -63s also got new seats, overhead bins and the audio-only IFE system but they didn't need the new wall panels as all 60-series DC-8s were built with sliding window shades to replace the curtains on early models..

You're probably right. It's been, after all, 31 years so my memory probably fails me. But for sure the return flight was on a short-bodied 8 (outbound it was a Skybus -63, and I was literally... in the back of the bus). Looking at the CP Air fleet disposals it would appear it could only be CP's lone -53 which was retired in June 1982 (CF-CPM, Empress of Lisbon). I was heading out to Vancouver and back to visit my girlfriend. I'm happy to report that she has been my wife for the last 25 of those 31 years  

Beech

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-04-16 07:54:08 and read 4010 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
The new interiors made the CP DC-8-43s (and one -53) look like new aircraft inside.

Any possibility you have pictures of this conversion?

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-04-16 11:49:25 and read 3862 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 43):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
The new interiors made the CP DC-8-43s (and one -53) look like new aircraft inside.

Any possibility you have pictures of this conversion?

Unfortunately not, but I found an item on this Flight International page from October 1972 re the conversion:
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1972/1972%20-%202643.html

The new interiors were very similar to the Boeing "widebody" look interior that was then becoming common on 707s and 727s, both factory deliveries and retrofits. Examples from British Caledonian and AA (both retrofits) below. Those angled bins made the cabin seem very spacious but they couldn't hold much more than coats and some small bags, certainly much too shallow for the types of bags passengers now expect to carry on.

http://www.british-caledonian.com/images/PBowell002.jpg


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ellis M. Chernoff



[Edited 2013-04-16 12:09:47]

[Edited 2013-04-16 12:11:50]

Topic: RE: DC-8 Passenger Flight In 2013
Username: United727
Posted 2013-04-16 14:12:19 and read 3781 times.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 40):
Does the United DC-8-52, N8066U, at the museum in Los Angeles still have an interior in it?

I have your answer! According to the museum:

Yes, the DC-8 was re-positioned when the former Armory Building was remodeled to become the Science Center School. It sits on pylons in a circular driveway where parents drop off their students for school.

I can tell you that even if the plane was easy to access, the interior has been pretty much gutted and the seats and full interior removed for weight purposes. It's a mere shell now!

Regards,


Paula Wagner | 4INFO@cscmail.org
California Science Center Foundation
California Science Center
700 Exposition Park Drive, Los Angeles, CA 90037
CaliforniaScienceCenter.org


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/