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Topic: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: fab747
Posted 2013-04-13 22:24:56 and read 21752 times.

It's with great sadness today that marks the end of Qantas to Frankfurt Germany. It will be operated by VH-OJA, their first 747-400 and will be landing in Frankfurt tomorrow at 0615am. It will depart back tomorrow evening ending a long association with Germany and continental Europe. Very sad day for the ground staff, pilots and cabin crew.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-04-13 22:40:21 and read 21701 times.

Sad indeed for many reasons.

It will also take off nbot only a destination but a whoile continent from the map. Time will tell if that was a smart move or not.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: fraspotter
Posted 2013-04-13 22:50:35 and read 21640 times.

I remember that flight when FRA was still my home airport. QF006 I believe used to be the final departure of the night at FRA for awhile...

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-04-13 23:41:25 and read 21449 times.

Yes, I took thaqt flight several times and the usual departure time was 23h30, in the air usually arounf midnight.

Due to that stupid curfew they had to pull this forward. The last workable departure time for long distance flights is now 22h15 to make sure that airborne time is 23h00 sharp. The idiocy is, even when a flight leaves 23:00:01 it must be already shown and listed on the wensite of the Hesse State ministry of economics as delayed past curfew and a reason must be stated, which, in this case usually is "start clearance given prior 23:00:00".


.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: shamrock321
Posted 2013-04-14 00:02:15 and read 21353 times.

PanHAM it's not quite removing a whole continent from its map, it still serves LHR which is in Europe

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-04-14 00:17:06 and read 21298 times.

Quoting fab747 (Thread starter):

Appears to have suffered an aircraft change with QF5 just departing SYD minutes ago operated by VH-OJC

QF5 from Sydney to Frankfurt http://fr24.com/QFA5

Unless we looking at the SYD-SIN-SYD service...?

EK413

[Edited 2013-04-14 00:40:05]

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-04-14 01:22:33 and read 21020 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
It will also take off nbot only a destination but a whoile continent from the map. Time will tell if that was a smart move or not.

Excusé moi bad Angaise. Since my base is FRA, I wrote thos, of course, from my bases's point of view. For better understanding I should have added " from FRA".

Fact is, the Australian continent is no longer served from FRA as of next week.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: TS-IOR
Posted 2013-04-14 01:37:37 and read 20837 times.

Quoting shamrock321 (Reply 4):

LHR is in the UK as you know   and it's in the British Isles, not in mainland Europe  

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-04-14 02:03:43 and read 20406 times.

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 7):
LHR is in the UK as you know   and it's in the British Isles, not in mainland Europe

Come off it - LHR is in Europe. If it isn't in Europe, what continent is it in?

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: ERJ135
Posted 2013-04-14 02:07:39 and read 20326 times.

I used to work for a Qantas that served 7 cities in Europe with their own metal, places like Amsterdam, Zagreb, Athens and Rome. These are all gone by the wayside as unprofitable. And now the final mainland European city draws to a close. As much as I am sadened to see this happen, I can also see the economic rationale. When Virgin Australia announced the tie up with Etihad And then saw the bookings go up as a result in onward traffic to numerous destinations not served by Virgin Aus, I couldn't help but wonder what Qantas should or could do. Clearly they had to do something to compete as VA were gaining market share, and fast. The QF decision to go to bed with the most conectable Arabian airline in the worlds Hub of Dubai now seems a no-brainer. Today I can book on the QF website to at least 50 more cities not previously served by QF and many of those are served by Emirates A380s which most will agree is not a bad propasition. To me this is a good thing and I hope that now QF can begin expanding its direct -ex Syd services on longer thinner routes. If they had the 787 like they were supposed to things may be a little clearer.
As for me I am now well and truley retired, I still consult from time to time but now I have switched sides, I just find VA and Etihad give me more.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: na
Posted 2013-04-14 02:23:17 and read 20042 times.

Very sad that the kangeroo leaves FRA for the last time today. The QF 744 was a welcome everyday sight. I can see that it is rather unprofitable to have a plane parked for ca. 17 hours each day from 6 in the early morning until after 23 in the late evening.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: charliecossie
Posted 2013-04-14 02:34:15 and read 19858 times.

I've worked this flight (QF5/6) every working day for 18 years.
There's been good times, bad times and a few "Qantas are like a hole in the head" times as well but overall they're alright.
I'll miss the 747 (and a 100 Euros a month) hugely. It IS the king of the skies and always will be (Tristar was the queen!).
Dunno what I'm gonna do now apart from switching on an Airbus first thing in the morning. Can't go back to London, can't afford the pay cut.
Still got one more tomorrow.
Bye bye Qantas.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-04-14 02:41:23 and read 19753 times.

Quoting charliecossie (Reply 11):
I've worked this flight (QF5/6) every working day for 18 years.

Nice memories Charlie.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: zkokq
Posted 2013-04-14 02:54:16 and read 19525 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):

It's going to be smart. I can get anywhere in Europe through emirates which is great to travel on. The route was not profitable, so it suffered the axe as it should. I hope QF returns to profit in the international sector and this will be a catalyst. Well done to Qantas for being brave and thinking of the business instead of prestige.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: something
Posted 2013-04-14 02:54:17 and read 19533 times.

Not only does this mean that FRA is losing an iconic airline, with it, it is losing yet another example of an iconic airplane. Not too long ago FRA had 747s of Iran Air, Cathay Pacific, Korean Airlines, Air China, Singapore Airlines, ANA, ANA Cargo, JAL Cargo, Jade Cargo, Air India, Qantas and probably many more I can't think of right now.

The fact that most of those have been replaced by 777s is sad enough but the fact that the QF 744 will replaced by an EK 77W (when do you get a chance to spot those exotic birds?) makes it even better.


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Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: flyingalex
Posted 2013-04-14 02:55:55 and read 19530 times.

The end of an era. I took QF5/QF6 several times between Frankfurt and Singapore, and it was always a good flight. Qantas's onboard product in Economy is about as good as Economy gets. This flight was often fairly empty though, so I can understand why the route is being pulled. That said, I'm still very sad to see them go.

Farewell, Qantas. You will be missed.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: huldoch
Posted 2013-04-14 03:01:06 and read 19405 times.

Glad they changed OJA....interior of that AC is crap!

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: rb211524g
Posted 2013-04-14 03:01:23 and read 19404 times.

Should things pick up for Qantas internationally, could they reintroduce the service? Or given the alliance with Emirates, will they leave things as they are?

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: na
Posted 2013-04-14 03:05:09 and read 19330 times.

Quoting something (Reply 14):

Iagree that FRA has become more and more boring in the last two years with so many now coming with the fat sausage from Seattle instead of the 747 which still ruled here by 2010. I hope EK is sending the A380 soon to FRA, those boring 77Ws are unbearable indeed.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: ClassicLover
Posted 2013-04-14 03:05:18 and read 19324 times.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 13):
The route was not profitable, so it suffered the axe as it should.

Not profitable is an understatement. It was losing tens of millions of Australian dollars annually - so it wasn't a minor loss by any means.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: rb211524g
Posted 2013-04-14 03:07:58 and read 19296 times.

Should things pick up for Qantas internationally, could they reintroduce the service? Or given the alliance with Emirates, will they leave things as they are?

Quoting huldoch (Reply 16):

I flew on OJA in December of 2011 to FRA. I agree, the interior looked tired, old, & crappy!!  

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: something
Posted 2013-04-14 03:18:26 and read 19114 times.

Quoting na (Reply 18):
I hope EK is sending the A380 soon to FRA, those boring 77Ws are unbearable indeed.

Not only is the 777 ugly it is also everywhere! EK will probably go 3x A388 at FRA as soon as deliveries permit.

Quoting rb211524g (Reply 20):
Should things pick up for Qantas internationally, could they reintroduce the service? Or given the alliance with Emirates, will they leave things as they are?

QF announced plans to try Europe flights with JetStar A332s. Maybe you'll see SIN-BER (where EK doesn't have access) at some stage but that is all very speculative. According to the bilateral between Australia and Germany, Qantas can only fly to Germany via Singapore and not via Dubai - so QF flights to BER and STR on behalf of EK (two destinations in Germany EK continually expresses interest in) are not allowed.

That being sad, chances of seeing actual Qantas planes back in Germany are asymptotically approaching 0.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: LZ129
Posted 2013-04-14 03:42:38 and read 18698 times.

Quoting na (Reply 18):

Though it's off topic, I have to disagree. I can't think of an airport with a more diverse fleet. There are daily A318, 319, 320, 321, 300, (sometimes 310), 332, 333, 343, 346, 388, B737, 744, 748 (i and f), 757, 767, 777, (soon hopefully again: 787), and so on...

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-04-14 03:47:22 and read 18623 times.

Quoting something (Reply 21):
Qantas can only fly to Germany via Singapore and not via Dubai - so QF flights to BER and STR on behalf of EK (two destinations in Germany EK continually expresses interest in) are not allowed.

Even more specifically they can only operate into Frankfurt !

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-04-14 04:00:11 and read 18417 times.

Quoting something (Reply 21):
That being sad, chances of seeing actual Qantas planes back in Germany are asymptotically approaching 0.
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 23):
Even more specifically they can only operate into Frankfurt !

The CEO of Qantas thinks they can - and may - operate into Berlin:

http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-tips-...787-routes-beijing-hong-kong-india

"But a bigger reach for the Red Roo isn't wholly reliant on the Boeing 787-9, with Joyce also eyeing off other destinations in the shorter term.

"We're continuing to talk to Emirates about opportunities in continental Europe, and Berlin is one of them" Joyce said. "As this partnership is bedded down we'll be looking at opportunities for both airlines to expand their networks."


mariner

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: flyingalex
Posted 2013-04-14 04:01:24 and read 19185 times.

Quoting something (Reply 21):
Qantas can only fly to Germany via Singapore

I'm not sure what the current bilateral says, but Bangkok also used to be a permitted intermediate stop.

A long time ago (late 80s, early 90s, something like that) QF even flew via both, so SYD-SIN-BKK-FRA.

Australia-BKK-Germany on Jetstar sounds like it might work.

[Edited 2013-04-14 04:02:23]

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-04-14 04:03:47 and read 19214 times.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 25):
I'm not sure what the current bilateral says, but Bangkok also used to be a permitted intermediate stop.

Germany - Bangkok yields already are rock bottom already, so that pairing will not work with the Qantas cost base and lack of feed.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-04-14 04:09:36 and read 19642 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
The CEO of Qantas thinks they can - and may - operate into Berlin:

http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-tips-...787-routes-beijing-hong-kong-india

"But a bigger reach for the Red Roo isn't wholly reliant on the Boeing 787-9, with Joyce also eyeing off other destinations in the shorter term.

"We're continuing to talk to Emirates about opportunities in continental Europe, and Berlin is one of them" Joyce said. "As this partnership is bedded down we'll be looking at opportunities for both airlines to expand their networks."

The CEO thinks he can negotiate the transfer of authority to Berlin - Very different.

The German authorities will probably allow it, however why they would go to Berlin even with Oneworld umbrella and AB really is beyond especially now that UAE have handcuffed them !

The new Berlin will offer nothing other than more low value tourists - No discredit to the city but Berlin is geographically hopeless as a Hub.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: something
Posted 2013-04-14 04:13:05 and read 19520 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 23):
Even more specifically they can only operate into Frankfurt !
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 25):
I'm not sure what the current bilateral says, but Bangkok also used to be a permitted intermediate stop.

Thanks for the corrections.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 26):
Germany - Bangkok yields already are rock bottom already, so that pairing will not work with the Qantas cost base and lack of feed.

If CX were on board, then BER-HKG. If not, BER-SIN. I don't think Germany - Bangkok is bad throughout all classes; economy isn't stellar but performs solidly. Problem is lack of sufficient premium demand. In either way, those routes would all be operated by JetStar on the A332s or 787s. The ''Red Roo'' back in Germany, and on a 747 at that, is just not going to happen.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: flyingalex
Posted 2013-04-14 04:15:11 and read 19411 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 26):
Germany - Bangkok yields already are rock bottom already, so that pairing will not work with the Qantas cost base and lack of feed.

Which is why I specifically mentioned Jetstar rather than Qantas.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-04-14 04:15:55 and read 19455 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 27):
The CEO thinks he can negotiate the transfer of authority to Berlin - Very different.

How is it different? The CEO of Qantas believes his airline can - and may - fly into Berlin.

Whether Emirates would code share on the route - or if it could - is unknown to me, but quite clearly, in the context, Mr. Joyce would do it from Dubai.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-14 04:17:26]

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-04-14 04:21:22 and read 19429 times.

Quoting rb211524g (Reply 20):
Quoting huldoch (Reply 16):

We flew on OJA in December of 2011 to FRA. I agree, the interior looked tired, old, & crappy!!

I flew VH-OJA QF108 JFK-LAX 25/03 J/C & let me tell you the cabin was tired & so was the IFE... Wait, there wasn't any!

EK413

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-04-14 04:23:03 and read 19330 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
How is it different? The CEO of Qantas believes his airline can - and may - fly into Berlin.

Its very different - As of now QF can not fly into Berlin simple.
They have authority to fly to Frankfurt or nowhere else its quite simple !

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-04-14 04:27:51 and read 19259 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 32):
Its very different - As of now QF can not fly into Berlin simple.
They have authority to fly to Frankfurt or nowhere else its quite simple !


That was raised on the Australian aviation thread, but when Mr. Joyce made the statement, no one was ready to contradict him.

But I still don't see how it is "different". It is Qantas returning to a (continental) European city, but from Dubai.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-14 04:29:30]

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-04-14 04:33:45 and read 19135 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
How is it different? The CEO of Qantas believes his airline can - and may - fly into Berlin

Yes, probably, but Australia has little to offer in reverse when LH doe snot intend to fly there.

Most important, they would probably face a problem selling tickets BER/DXB/Indian sub continent.

QF had full traffic rights to SIN as well as BKK , I once flew FRA/SIN with direct connection to KUL and from KUL to Oz afterwards and I remember sitting in a Euro bound 744 at BKK, not sure if FRA was the destination.

But selling QF/EK from BER to -say BOM via DXB is not covered and why should Germany allow EK to sneak in through the back door?

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: something
Posted 2013-04-14 04:37:05 and read 19071 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 32):
Its very different - As of now QF can not fly into Berlin simple.
They have authority to fly to Frankfurt or nowhere else its quite simple !
Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
But I still don't see how it is "different". It is Qantas returning to a (continental) European city, but from Dubai.

Which I believe was the problem. Otherwise QF could just take over EK's 3x into FRA while EK would switch their operations from FRA to BER.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-04-14 04:41:09 and read 18994 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 34):
But selling QF/EK from BER to -say BOM via DXB is not covered and why should Germany allow EK to sneak in through the back door?

I've no idea, nor do I know if they do intend to try and sell BER-DXB-BOM. As I said - I don't even know if a code share with Emirates is possible to Berlin.

I'm just posting what the CEO said - BER - and clearly he thinks it is both possible and desirable.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-14 04:42:11]

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-04-14 04:41:50 and read 19025 times.

Quoting something (Reply 21):
According to the bilateral between Australia and Germany, Qantas can only fly to Germany via Singapore and not via Dubai

The original agreement between Germany and Australia states:

Quote:
II. Route to be operated by an airline designated by the Commonwealth of Australia:

From Australia, via points in Indonesia, Singapore or Malaya, Thailand, Burma or Ceylon, India, Pakistan, Middle East, South and South-East Europe to Frankfurt/M. and beyond to the Netherlands and/or to the United Kingdom, in both directions.

Dubai is in the Middle East.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 32):
They have authority to fly to Frankfurt or nowhere else its quite simple !

In a previous thread discussing the Qantas-Emirates tie up, I posted that Australian designated carriers could also access other destinations in Germany, including München, Düsseldorf or Köln, and Hamburg and that a MoU of (I think) 1998 indicated that Australia could access Berlin, provided that they gave up one of the other named points. The odd thing was that at the time I couldn't find an online link to the amendment that added the above-named destinations, only the link that specified the possible substitution of Berlin. I tried using the search function to find the post but ...

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-04-14 04:45:53 and read 18934 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
But I still don't see how it is "different". It is Qantas returning to a (continental) European city, but from Dubai.

We can play semantics all day.

The FACTs are clear and what is difficult about them - Until the Australian and Germany authorities alter the bilateral QF are only talking about the concept of hope.

I am not questioning the easy with which the traffic rights could/maybe transferred at some future timeframe.

In fact within the next few yearsI expect a far more reaching openskys treaty to be negotiated covering the entire EU-AU traffic rights.

Berlin's new terminal may yet still be 18 months + from opening.

QF are likely to introduce further feeders into Dubai from Perth, Brisbane and second Sydney in 2014 .

When will they receive any 789s who knows !

Fact is the Kangaroo is off of mainland europe for several years

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-04-14 04:49:34 and read 18803 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 37):
MoU of (I think) 1998 indicated that Australia could access Berlin, provided that they gave up one of the other named points.

A framework for negotiation. so as stated they have no traffic rights to Berlin - Case closed.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-04-14 04:51:17 and read 18765 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 38):
Fact is the Kangaroo is off of mainland europe for several years

But - again - that isn't what the article said. The thrust of the article was what would happen when the 787's eventually arrive.

Then at the end of the article, he says:

"But a bigger reach for the Red Roo isn't wholly reliant on the Boeing 787-9, with Joyce also eyeing off other destinations in the shorter term.

"We're continuing to talk to Emirates about opportunities in continental Europe, and Berlin is one of them" Joyce said. "As this partnership is bedded down we'll be looking at opportunities for both airlines to expand their networks."


"The shorter term" means that BER - if it happens - isn't dependent on the arrival of the 787.

You can second guess the Qantas CEO all you want, but I'm just posting what he said, and I put rather more faith in his view of what Qantas may do than anyone else's.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-14 04:53:06]

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-04-14 04:56:58 and read 18668 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 40):
But - again - that isn't what the article said. The thrust of the article was what would happen with the 787's eventually arrive.

Again when will that be ?

2017 and later even the board is none committal on the Dream(Delay)liner delivery timeframe.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-04-14 05:01:04 and read 18621 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 41):
Again when will that be ?

2017 and later even the board is none committal on the Dream(Delay)liner delivery timeframe.

I've no idea. I don't know if Qantas will ever see the 787's. I deal in what is, not what might be.

And because BER is "in the shorter term", it clearly isn't reliant on the arrival the 787's.

mariner

[Edited 2013-04-14 05:01:34]

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: rutankrd
Posted 2013-04-14 05:08:50 and read 18465 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 42):
I've no idea. I don't know if Qantas will ever see the 787's. I deal in what is, not what might be.

And because BER is "in the shorter term", it clearly isn't reliant on the arrival the 787's.

If we deal with the what is I refer you to my previous comment and supporting evidence from Quokkas then.

Qantas do not have traffic rights at this time to Berlin and therefore its a wish list destination of the CEO.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-04-14 05:42:52 and read 17967 times.

Managed to track down the 1996 amendment which was agreed and is stated to have entered into force on the 19th December 1996.

Quote:
2. Route to be operated by the airline or airlines designated by Australia:

From Australia via intermediate points to Düsseldorf or Cologne, Frankfurt/M., Hamburg and Munich and to an additional point, to be notified from time to time by the Australian aeronautical authorities, in lieu of one of the specified points in the Federal Republic of Germany, and to points beyond in both directions.

If the information shown in the ATS is correct then it would appear that the claim that QF has authority for FRA and nowhere else is false. Of course if AustLII is wrong then Mr Joyce has his work cut out.

Still, haven't been able to find the link to the 1998 text. Sorry.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Semaex
Posted 2013-04-14 06:06:34 and read 17455 times.

Quoting LZ129 (Reply 22):
Though it's off topic, I have to disagree. I can't think of an airport with a more diverse fleet. There are daily A318, 319, 320, 321, 300, (sometimes 310), 332, 333, 343, 346, 388, B737, 744, 748 (i and f), 757, 767, 777, (soon hopefully again: 787), and so on...

I personally also enjoy the now-and then Russian Jets and regular ATRs, Q-Series and Embraers. Not sure Avros still fly FRA.

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
The CEO of Qantas thinks they can - and may - operate into Berlin:
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 27):
The new Berlin will offer nothing other than more low value tourists - No discredit to the city but Berlin is geographically hopeless as a Hub.
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 38):
The FACTs are clear and what is difficult about them - Until the Australian and Germany authorities alter the bilateral QF are only talking about the concept of hope.

Treates can always be discussed.
LH may not like it a lot, but to the City of Berlin, BER, AB and Germany as a whole a one-stop route would be amazing. The government will have no choice but to investigate on the matter. It's a win-win in for a lot of parties. Just not LH, but hey, with QF gone in FRA, they've been handed a delayed Easter present after all.
As to the viability of a QF or Jetstar route to BER.... with the new airport up and running, the right-sized equipment (330 or 787) and a feeder network via OW member AB, why wouldn't it be worth thinking about it at least?

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: something
Posted 2013-04-14 06:38:54 and read 16941 times.

Thank you Quokkas. For those interested, all international air service agreements Australia is currently signatory to can be found here:

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/avi...tion/international/agreements.aspx

Quote:
GERMANY

DESIGNATION STATUS: MULTIPLE

AVAILABLE CAPACITY:
PASSENGER SERVICES
18 frequencies per week with any aircraft type

FREIGHTER SERVICES
In operating dedicated cargo services on the specified route, the designated airline or
airlines of Australia may determine the frequency, capacity and aircraft type to be
operated.

COOPERATIVE MAKETING ARRANGEMENTS:
In operating or holding out the agreed passenger and cargo services on the specified
routes, any designated airline of Australia, whether as the operating or non-operating
airline, may enter into co-operative marketing arrangements such as blocked space,
code sharing or leasing arrangements with
(a) an airline or airlines of Australia
(b) an airline or airlines of Germany, and
(c) an airline or airlines of a third country.
Further information about the conditions applying to such arrangements can be
obtained from the Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and
Local Government.
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/avi...ster_available_capacity_080413.pdf

Also unable to find the supplemental MoU from 1998 - but assuming that it does not further restrict the original bilateral - every Australian designated carrier seems indeed to be permitted to fly to the destinations quoted by Quokkas. It therefore appears possible for Qantas to take over Emirates' flights into FRA and for EK to move their flights to BER.

Such a move would likely suggest a renegotiation of the 1959! air traffic agreement between Germany and Australia though. With no German airline currently flying to Australia, I doubt it would retain its current form.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 45):
Just not LH

And the German treasury. LH earns Germany more in tax revenue than EK does.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 45):
with QF gone in FRA, they've been handed a delayed Easter present after all.
As to the viability of a QF or Jetstar route to BER.... with the new airport up and running, the right-sized equipment (330 or 787) and a feeder network via OW member AB, why wouldn't it be worth thinking about it at least?

QF is not leaving FRA - they simply consolidate their flight with those of EK into FRA. Temporarily capacity will have been reduced, as EK doesn't increase their capacity at FRA accordingly, but they eventually will.

Furthermore, in the light of the QF-EK tie up, connections at BER are completely worthless. EK flies everywhere on their own as it is, or will be within the coming years. Where does AB fly from BER where neither EK (from DXB) nor BA (from any UK airport with EK service) don't? Besides, AB operating feeder flights for QF on behalf of EK and for themselves on behalf of EY? Slight conflict of interest..

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-04-14 07:02:31 and read 16568 times.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 45):
LH may not like it a lot, but to the City of Berlin, BER, AB and Germany as a whole a one-stop route would be amazing. The government will have no choice but to investigate on the matter. It's a win-win in for a lot of parties

What are you talking about?

BER has one stop connections to virtually all large markets worldwide. Via FRA and MUC, DUS as well, via AMS, LHR, ZRH, IST, even via AUH and DOH and that list is not complete.

The market is fully served and offers competetive fares to the general public. It is, due to its peripheric location, not a natural hub like FRA or MUC but still has a few n/s services to the USA, Middle East and leisure destinations.

Whoever still wants to fly EK can do so by connecting train via HAM, or fly to DUS/FRA/;UC, they offer interlining.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-04-14 11:55:37 and read 12334 times.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 43):
If we deal with the what is I refer you to my previous comment and supporting evidence from Quokkas then.

But Quokkas seems to present conflicting evidence.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 43):
Qantas do not have traffic rights at this time to Berlin and therefore its a wish list destination of the CEO.

Since it hasn't been announced, obviously it is his "wish list" - there may be many reasons why it may not eventuate.

I'm simply dealing with the fact that he said it.

mariner

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-04-14 13:40:09 and read 10987 times.

Quoting charliecossie (Reply 11):
I'll miss the 747 (and a 100 Euros a month) hugely. It IS the king of the skies and always will be (Tristar was the queen!).

Amen Charlie. The 747 used to rule the world, like no other aircraft did before. Anyone here claiming loving aviation history cannot forget it.

The 747 was, is, and will remain the king of the skies.

Time will tell if Qantas move was a smart one or not. But something tells me that they purely gave up on the commercial aviation battle, literally.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Semaex
Posted 2013-04-14 14:09:38 and read 10545 times.

Quoting something (Reply 46):
Furthermore, in the light of the QF-EK tie up, connections at BER are completely worthless. EK flies everywhere on their own as it is, or will be within the coming years. Where does AB fly from BER where neither EK (from DXB) nor BA (from any UK airport with EK service) don't? Besides, AB operating feeder flights for QF on behalf of EK and for themselves on behalf of EY? Slight conflict of interest..

EK doesn't fly to a lot of places AB, HG or HE serve in Europe. Smaller places, true, but not on the EK list after all.
I never said that AB should be doing feeder flights for EK. Try quoting me on this point.
I just stated that for AB and QF it would be beneficial to have a connection at BER. You're right, QF is still flying FRA, albeit not on their own metal, however feeding FRA is and will in the future continue to be more difficult for AB than feeding BER.
I'm guessing wildly when I say this, but one reason QF couldn't make the 744 work in FRA might be the lack of feed. Like I said, BER could work.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 47):
BER has one stop connections to virtually all large markets worldwide. Via FRA and MUC, DUS as well, via AMS, LHR, ZRH, IST, even via AUH and DOH and that list is not complete.

I should have phrased more accurately. I meant to say "one-stop connection from BER to Australia". There's nothing as of today. And I know the market isn't huge, but BER has a healthy portion of youngsters wanting to go abroad. Not amazingly high-yielding traffic I admit, but maybe something that could work with Jetstar. And ask any german graduate where he/she wants to go for a year or so to spend time far away and half of them will tell you Australia. I'm not exaggerating.
And if you make it a one-stop on JQ with the stopover somewhere in SE-Asia, then you might even catch a good amount of O&D wanting to go right there too, eg BKK, SIN, KUL, ...

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: B707MT
Posted 2013-04-14 14:53:02 and read 10077 times.

Hear, hear, fab747, Charlie, Airproxx, and others above - it's important to maintain some sentiment in a cold-blooded commercial real world.

This is a l-o-n-g relationship - of what? almost 53, 54 years? - which is coming to an end. (Does anyone have info about the first QF services to FRA? I've been able to find only passing references to historical QF European services in the forums.)

My family and I have been regular QF5/QF6 users for many years, and it is sad to say good-bye. My part of the relationship began in 1978, with the QF15/QF16 rotation, as it was then, with the 15 arriving FRA mid-morning after a multi-stage overnight from SIN via BAH, ATH and VIE, and Gerhard's classic image of ochre-striped EBM brilliantly captures this memory for me.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerhard Plomitzer
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marc Lehmann



It always gave goosebumps to an Aussie far from home, returning the rental car in the late afternoon, to see the red-and-white 'roo peeking over the fence on the south side of FRA, knowing in a few hours I'd be aboard, exhanging a few weeks of "Guten Tag" for a laid-back "G'day" and heading home.

Vale, Qantas FRA.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: airproxx
Posted 2013-04-14 15:16:33 and read 9679 times.

Quoting B707MT (Reply 51):

Thanks for sharing.

Though I do not have the same foreign history as you have, my first aviation emotion took place years ago when my father took me for a trip to NYC. I went CDG-JFK on a 747-100. The journey, the airports, the jet lag, and so on, for a 6 years old boy leaded me all way to be a pilot today, and the 747 sight, made me be a pilot today. I was born this day.

Amazing to see how people can be nostalgic of an era.... I'll miss such a sight...
The least I can do is to remember.

Thanks mate  

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: B707MT
Posted 2013-04-14 15:59:31 and read 9311 times.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 52):
airproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted Mon Apr 15 2013 08:16:33 your local time (10 minutes 41 secs ago) and read 90 times:

Quoting B707MT (Reply 51):

Thanks for sharing.

1978 was an amazing first-time visit for a 15 year old - I had hand-made and hand-painted models of every aircraft Qantas had flown, which had been exhibited around Australia and in AKL. QF brought the exhibition to FRA for display in their city office window, so my first act - after a 30 hour, 5-stop, 2 -aircraft journey from BNE - was to crawl around inside the glass frontage setting up the 30 or 40 models in their display stand!

Quite an unusual way of handling jet-lag - being stared at by passing Hausfrauen, feeling like a goldfish in an aquarium, but too young to be anything other than excited by the novel experience!



Just to forestall any questions (and prevent this from going off-topic): no, I'm afraid my polystyrene and timber creations have long ago GTG, so the exhibition memories are no more than a few scanned newspaper clippings and photos.

So, you see, tonight's final departure of QF6 will be an especially poignant time for me.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-04-14 16:08:25 and read 9236 times.

Quoting rb211524g (Reply 20):
Should things pick up for Qantas internationally, could they reintroduce the service? Or given the alliance with Emirates, will they leave things as they are?

The world changed so QANTAS have chosen to

Quoting something (Reply 21):
Not only is the 777 ugly it is also everywhere!

Well I disagree strongly and the hard product in a new B777 is way better than the old B744. The dynamic is change or die, flying "icons" about is what killed Pan Am.

Quoting something (Reply 46):
QF is not leaving FRA - they simply consolidate their flight with those of EK into FRA.

Wrong, Qantas are leaving FRA in the same way LH left SYD and the same way BA left every other Australian and New Zealand port except Sydney. Accept a strategic retrenchment for what it is. A withdrawal.

Emirates need to fill these A380s and funnelingl OZ-Europe traffic over Dubai is a key part of that. Qantas will be allowed to feed from the Australian end and sell connections but make no mistake, this is *not* a relationship of equals. QF have postponed their last two A388s and the B787s are going to Jetstar.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: mariner
Posted 2013-04-14 16:47:05 and read 8947 times.

Quoting airproxx (Reply 49):
Time will tell if Qantas move was a smart one or not. But something tells me that they purely gave up on the commercial aviation battle, literally.

We went through much the same debate when Air New Zealand dropped HKG-LHR.

The world down here has changed. China has now replaced the UK as the second largest source of overseas visitor arrivals (New Zealand is first).

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@....s/961B6B53B87C130ACA2574030010BD05

And that seems to be continuing:

http://www.etravelblackboard.com/art...vals-match-departures-in-australia

"Australia's relationship with Asia Pacific (APAC) countries continues to be strengthened, with ABS statistics revealing increased visitation from countries such as China and Singapore.

Chinese visitors accounted for almost one in five of all international visitors to Australia in February 2013."


If were Qantas, I know where I'd be flying.

mariner

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: ABpositive
Posted 2013-04-14 16:53:10 and read 8876 times.

In the past I used FRA used to be my regular destination with QF because you could book and conveniently connect with ICE from the airport. Will QF continue to have the arrangements with DB?

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: trent1000
Posted 2013-04-14 17:26:04 and read 8626 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
Fact is, the Australian continent is no longer served from FRA as of next week.

How about on TG or SQ FRA/BKK or FRA/SIN/PER, ADL, MEL, SYD, BNE ??
How about Australia to FRA via NRT, PVG, TPE, ICN, HKG to name a few alternatives to QF?

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-04-14 17:28:17 and read 8604 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 44):
If the information shown in the ATS is correct then it would appear that the claim that QF has authority for FRA and nowhere else is false. Of course if AustLII is wrong then Mr Joyce has his work cut out.

Thanks for that, I'm glad someone has finally found that as I really struggled and got nowhere.

Quoting something (Reply 46):
For those interested, all international air service agreements Australia is currently signatory to can be found here:

Unfortunately the one provided by the Department of Infrastructure is the out-of-date FRA only one. What that says about government efficiency I'll leave to you to interpret!

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 38):
QF are likely to introduce further feeders into Dubai from Perth, Brisbane and second Sydney in 2014

Source?

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 54):
the B787s are going to Jetstar.

No, no, no, no!!! The initial batch are going to Jetstar, but the majority are going to end up with mainline.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-04-14 21:33:17 and read 7084 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 54):
Wrong, Qantas are leaving FRA in the same way LH left SYD and the same way BA left every other Australian and New Zealand port except Sydney. Accept a strategic retrenchment for what it is. A withdrawal.

The same way KL, AZ, OA, GF, OS dropped the Australiasian routes...

EK413

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-04-14 22:03:57 and read 6889 times.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 50):
I meant to say "one-stop connection from BER to Australia". There's nothing as of today. And I know the market isn't huge, but BER

There is voia AUH, AB/EY and Berliners are still better served as people from Bremen, Cologne, Nuremberg, Dresden Leipzig who have minimum 2 stops on the way to down under

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 57):
How about on TG or SQ FRA/BKK or FRA/SIN/PER, ADL, MEL, SYD, BNE ??

We are talking about direct flight. There are no longer direct flights from the European continent to Australia.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: flyabr
Posted 2013-04-14 22:20:03 and read 6765 times.

Quoting LZ129 (Reply 22):
Though it's off topic, I have to disagree. I can't think of an airport with a more diverse fleet. There are daily A318, 319, 320, 321, 300, (sometimes 310), 332, 333, 343, 346, 388, B737, 744, 748 (i and f), 757, 767, 777, (soon hopefully again: 787), and so on...

Me thinks you neglected to mention one of my favorite aircraft...the MD11! yes yes...i know...and so on!  

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: na
Posted 2013-04-14 22:33:44 and read 6694 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 54):
Well I disagree strongly and the hard product in a new B777 is way better than the old B744.

Sorry, but you dont know what you´re talking about. For passengers travelling in first or business even an older 744 is better than a new 777 if the seats are up-to-date. The "hard product" cabin architecture of a 777 is inferior to any 747.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: LZ129
Posted 2013-04-14 22:38:41 and read 6657 times.

Quoting flyabr (Reply 61):

:D Indeed I omitted quite a lot of a/c types - and the fact that I was able to skip so many only supports my argument :P

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: na
Posted 2013-04-14 22:48:23 and read 6635 times.

Quoting LZ129 (Reply 22):

Quoting na (Reply 18):

Though it's off topic, I have to disagree. I can't think of an airport with a more diverse fleet. There are daily A318, 319, 320, 321, 300, (sometimes 310), 332, 333, 343, 346, 388, B737, 744, 748 (i and f), 757, 767, 777, (soon hopefully again: 787), and so on...

In general you are right, I only referred to the shrinking number of 744s in FRA vs more 77Ws popping up.

Quoting flyabr (Reply 61):
Me thinks you neglected to mention one of my favorite aircraft...the MD11! yes yes...i know...and so on!  

Lots of MD11 here, mostly LH, but also Fedex. Others rare.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: something
Posted 2013-04-15 01:52:29 and read 6226 times.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 50):
I never said that AB should be doing feeder flights for EK. Try quoting me on this point.
I just stated that for AB and QF it would be beneficial to have a connection at BER.

QF is not flying to Europe independently any longer. All of their flights now route via DXB (as opposed to SIN) in a joint-venture-like enterprise with EK, therefore a Qantas flight from SYD-DXB-BER would also be an Emirates flight SYD-DXB-BER. Consequentially, if AB feeds QF at BER (or wherever else), they feed EK.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 50):
I meant to say "one-stop connection from BER to Australia". There's nothing as of today.

Yes there is. Qatar flies BER-DOH and Air Berlin flies BER-AUH. Both of which enable one-stop connections to Australia.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 54):
Well I disagree strongly and the hard product in a new B777 is way better than the old B744.

777s are extremely loud and ''creeky'' on the inside and they're not as wide as the 744. They also don't have an upperdeck. Oh, they're also boring as can be.

Obviously they're a great technological achievement - but such rational considerations mean less than nothing to my passion for aviation.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-04-15 02:07:37 and read 6187 times.

When did QF last serve Europe independently? They swapped a BA JV for an EK one, SIN for DXB. I am also passionate about aviation but the lack of inches wider or an upper deck doesn't bother me. As for creakiness, well try a 20+ year old BA B744 like I did recently and listen.....

If they're really that boring to you, it's time to stop. We all have our eras, and I don't mean that in a bad way. The future's twin not quad. Besides Europe is now one stop on QF tickets (not metal) rather than two or three as per BA. It's a no brainer in the marketplace. QF main issue is they didn't buy the B77W ten years ago!

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: something
Posted 2013-04-15 02:28:21 and read 6095 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 66):
When did QF last serve Europe independently?

They were the operating airline on SYD-SIN-FRA which they now no longer will be. Any discretions as to the actual product lay ultimately with them. I doubt British Airways had any measureable impact on their SIN-FRA-SIN flights while the same can hardly be said for EK's DXB-FRA-DXB.

I am not arguing on the economical merits of this decisions at all. In fact, I am quite surprised this flight has managed to last as long as it actually did. Not only is there competition from the ME3 but also from the mainland Chinese airlines. It is only a matter of time until China Southern will start up FRA and offer A380 connections to SYD via CAN.

Qantas is based in a civilized first world democracy. The others in dictatorships and China. There's no way they can compete. Qantas operates on profits not on their sugar daddy's credit card and I welcome every decision, every move they make in order to preserve their brand. That is what they exist for.

But that doesn't change the fact that I'll miss seeing Qantas' 744 at FRA and that I've found reason #2109382 to dislike Emirates.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: na
Posted 2013-04-15 02:29:32 and read 6081 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 66):

You´re not talking from a passengers perspective, your post rather sounds like a mouthpiece of the 777 sales department. I regularly fly business longhaul, and will do so again on wednesday, and I can only repeat it again and again, the 747 is superior here to any 777. Its totally irrelevant if the basic plane is 40something when the basic architecture is still second to none.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-04-15 03:18:56 and read 5927 times.

Quoting na (Reply 68):
I regularly fly business longhaul, and will do so again on wednesday, and I can only repeat it again and again, the 747 is superior here to any 777. Its totally irrelevant if the basic plane is 40something when the basic architecture is still second to none.

Hello Na, Actually I was speaking from a passenger standpoint, you are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. I went all the way to Oz on a B744 last month, it was clean but creaky and showing it's age.
I don't see a huge difference from a B744 to a B772 and if the market as a whole had done so, Boeing would not have sold so many. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not a fanboy and I don't work for Boeing, and be assured I don't sell B777s for a living. There are a minority of the travelling public who care whether it's a B744 or a B777, of that minority a fraction cares for one over the other. Hence the majority don't seem to mined either way and hence the more modern platform wins out. You love the B747 as I do but I've flown on enough of them and they're now nostalgic. LH has gone and bought the B747-8i so I am sure you will be able to fly on one for decades to come if you really need to, personally I am looking forward to the B777-X and the A350. It would be a boring world if we all thought the same....

Quoting something (Reply 67):
Qantas operates on profits not on their sugar daddy's credit card

Actually that's a misconception around Emirates as numerous threads and posters on here will show. Sure they had help at the start but being located at such a crossroads really helps.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: na
Posted 2013-04-15 03:33:47 and read 5912 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 69):
Hello Na, Actually I was speaking from a passenger standpoint, you are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. I went all the way to Oz on a B744 last month, it was clean but creaky and showing it's age. I don't see a huge difference from a B744 to a B772 and if the market as a whole had done so

I agree if that opinion is limited to Economy Class, and only if its 9 abreast in a 777. Then its doesnt really matter if you sit in a 747 or 777. But as its possible and "trendy" to cramp in 10 now even in Eco the 777 becomes more and more inferior here too. The average pax who flies longhaul once every tow years or so just doesnt know and doesnt check. He´s just a dump payng animal.
I disagree from a standpoint as a high-yield passenger, and I doubt that you are one. A 777 offers no match for the front compartment or upper deck of a 747. That a 777 usually offers better seats is only because so many are new, and does speak zero in favour of the plane itself. And if fuel economy and quietness is key, then everyone should take the A380, the 777 is "not fish nor meat" as we Germans say.
Dont get me wrong, I agree the 777 is an engineering marvel, but I have failed to find a single point were it comes first. Its just a clever compromise, nothing more.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: B707MT
Posted 2013-04-15 03:47:20 and read 5846 times.

Quoting B707MT (Reply 51):
This is a l-o-n-g relationship - of what? almost 53, 54 years? - which is coming to an end. (Does anyone have info about the first QF services to FRA? I've been able to find only passing references to historical QF European services in the forums.)

It turns out that this relationship ends four days short of its 61st anniversary with the departure of QF6 in a few hours from now.

Emails today have revealed the first QF service landed at FRA on 19 April 1952.

That would almost certainly have been an L749 Constellation, as they were stalwarts on the Kangaroo Route and also began service to South Africa in 1952, when an additional trio (on top of the initial QF order for four) enabled further international expansion and replacement of the post-war Lancastrians.

When VH-OJC begins its roll down Runway 18 tonight, it will mark the end of a service which has lasted for more than half the history of powered flight.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: allrite
Posted 2013-04-15 04:29:56 and read 5754 times.

I was so tempted to blow my FF points to book seats on the SIN-FRA-SIN and buy the SYD-SIN legs. Not even staying in FRA for a night! Just for that last opportunity to fly to Europe on a QF 747. Only flown to LHR on QF. My flights with Qantas and their 747s have always been magic and I do love those Asian transits. I hope they find a way back, someway or another, and also that Dubai turns out to be an exotic but reasonably easy transit experience.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: B707MT
Posted 2013-04-15 04:48:15 and read 5706 times.

Quoting allrite (Reply 72):

I was so tempted to blow my FF points to book seats on the SIN-FRA-SIN and buy the SYD-SIN legs. Not even staying in FRA for a night! Just for that last opportunity to fly to Europe on a QF 747.

Amen to that, mate! I'm supposed to be in Germany in October and was going to build my itinerary around the final QF6 out of FRA according to the original announcement ... then the cut-off was brought forward to mid-April and that was the end of that.

Ah well ... have to make do with an early morning coffee and watching a few pixels of light appear on FR24 for the last time ...

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-04-15 04:48:40 and read 5737 times.

Quoting na (Reply 70):
He´s just a dump payng animal.

That's really offensive, you need to edit and rephrase.

Quoting na (Reply 70):
I disagree from a standpoint as a high-yield passenger, and I doubt that you are one.

You're not winning friends on here are you? I'm no stranger to the front of an aeroplane sir, play the ball not the man.

BA have put a whole now F cabin on some of their oldest B744s, however that doesn't make the platform anymore reliable and fuel efficient. I also disagree that the majority of people on a flight and I assume on these boards are dumb animals. That's just ludicrous and you should apologise.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: gemuser
Posted 2013-04-15 05:26:23 and read 5617 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 74):
That's really offensive, you need to edit and rephrase.

Not in my opinion. I think it is a very fair comment on squeezing 10 abreast into a B777 and NOT at all offensive.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-04-15 05:30:20 and read 5607 times.

Calling Economy Class passengers "dumb paying animals" is not offensive to you? Just me then??

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: gemuser
Posted 2013-04-15 05:51:25 and read 5550 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 76):
Calling Economy Class passengers "dumb paying animals" is not offensive to you? Just me then??

Seems a fair comment for many of them, however I think he was actually referring to many airlines opinion of discount Y pax, a reference I agree with whole heartedly.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-04-15 06:32:01 and read 5459 times.

Well, as a dumb paying passenger, I could have spent more money, made a greater number of connections and, in some instances spent more time in transit than travelling, but as a dumb paying passenger I chose the most practical and expedient route at the time. Admittedly in one instance I did choose a longer layover in DXB because it gave me free accommodation and the chance for sightseeing due to a long layover but I would have still had long layovers elsewhere without the accommodation, unless I paid extra. Horses for courses?

If I am flying from PER to HAM I will take EK not because I am dumb but because it is a simple one stop and offers a twice daily service. No other airline can or chooses to offer that. Why would I want to mess about back-tracking from Heathrow? Why would I want to fly to Frankfurt to only then have a very tight connection that I might miss or have to catch a train? Why the additional complication when there is a far more simple and practical alternative? That I need to ask these questions is proof enough of how dumb I am.

Fortunately airlines, and indeed many businesses, thrive on dumb paying customers like me because without them they would go out of business very quickly. Of course the risk for those businesses is how far they take the dumbness that they assume. Push people too far and they might just choose the second most convenient.

While I don't think any passenger is dumb - I don't know them so how can I judge them to be? - it is true that many people in the industry and in this forum do have very negative opinions of those who ultimately pay their wages.

Now some facts rather than opinions. Internal cabin width 747 is 6.1 metres. Internal cabin width 777 is 5.86 meters, according to Boeing. Assuming aisle width identical, potential extra seat width is 24mm (approx. 1"). A quick check on typical configuration is that seat width is 17.5" on a 747 and 17" on an EK 777. I do question the accuracy of Seat Guru but according to their figures EY with 9 abreast on the 777 still has 17". BA claims 17.5", which is the same as on the 747.

Back to opinions. Now for some people an extra half inch makes a lot of difference. For others it won't. Personally, the only time I have noticed a feeling of being cramped is when eating meals and typically one doesn't do a lot of that on a ten or twelve hour flight. But I have also noticed that on SQ when flying to CDG and ZRH on both types from PER.

[Edited 2013-04-15 06:32:40]

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-04-15 06:35:44 and read 5440 times.

not a splendid translation from German to English, but put it in the category like "self loading cargo" or, "cattle class", just to mention 2 expressions in English that would be fitting.

He certainly did not mean to offend someone personally.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: trent1000
Posted 2013-04-15 06:41:56 and read 5423 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
We are talking about direct flight. There are no longer direct flights from the European continent to Australia.

What direct flight routes from Europe to Australia previously operated and when?

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-04-15 06:45:48 and read 5402 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 79):
"self loading cargo" or, "cattle class"

I'm not sure being condescending to the majority of people on the aicraft is in any way appropriate.

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 80):
What direct flight routes from Europe to Australia previously operated and when?

There's quite a history of European legacies operating to Australia but the competitve advantage of Emirates and co eroded prfotability to the extent only BA and VS remain on LHR-xyz-SYD. Sadly this is the same reason QF became uncompetitive to Europe as Emirates just offers many more opttions.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-04-15 06:52:46 and read 5378 times.

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 80):
What direct flight routes from Europe to Australia previously operated and when?

Do not confuse direct and non-stop. A direct flight may include a stop en-route.

QF has offered direct flights to both FRA and LHR but they were routed via SIN. Those flights did continue on the same metal and under the same flight number and so in the industry they are regarded as direct. The layover in SIN did afford travellers from other ports in Australia to join or travellers headed to other destinations in Australia to transfer to connecting flights.

For example, a flight routed SYD-SIN-LHR operated under the same flight number from SYD to LHR. But I was able to fly from PER and join it in SIN. My routing was with two QF flight numbers but a passenger from SYD would have just the one.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: AngMoh
Posted 2013-04-15 07:08:35 and read 5335 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 82):
For example, a flight routed SYD-SIN-LHR operated under the same flight number from SYD to LHR. But I was able to fly from PER and join it in SIN. My routing was with two QF flight numbers but a passenger from SYD would have just the one.

And I think QF killed their European profitability when they reduced or eliminated the feed from cities other than SYD and MEL down under and LHR in Europe. Their scissor hub in SIN worked very well (from a passenger standpoint, don't know how it was financial) in the 80s and 90s. To me it was a prime example of cost cutting yourself to death.

Now they have the concept back in working order although it is fully run by EK with QF in a support role.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-04-15 07:14:14 and read 5326 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 81):
I'm not sure being condescending to the majority of people on the aicraft is in any way appropriate

Uncle Roger, featured in "Flight", a 100+ year old institution in aviation (Flight, not necessarily Uncle Roger) has used these terms many times over the decades I read this magazine. I have heard these two and many other expressions about Y class over and over again and they are standards in the industry. Similar about F and J as well of course. Enough said about that.

Quoting trent1000 (Reply 80):
What direct flight routes from Europe to Australia previously operated and when?

IIRC the last European carrier to give up the direct route from the European continent to Oz was Austrian, which inherited the route from Lauda Air. Before that, by memory in in geographical order, Europe to Oz was operated by KLM, Lufthansa, JAT, Olympic and Alitalia as well. Air France flew from Tahiti to SYD and the direct flight was by UTA from France to down under.

Of course, BOAC/BA but they fly from England which is not the continent, as we all know......
 

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-04-15 07:28:06 and read 5271 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 84):
Of course, BOAC/BA

Thank you for reminding me. Many years ago, but so long ago that dinosaurs hadn't been invented, I flew out of PER on a BA 747 on the upper deck. On this particular aircraft it was configured as an economy cabin. It came as a surprise because as a 19 year old I was holding a Y ticket and still believed the upper deck was an decadent place with a bar. No such luck, to my everlasting disappointment, but at least we were served complimentary drinks at Paya Labar when there were problems with number three engine. Still, it was nice to be sitting in a less cramped space with a good passenger to crew ratio.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 84):
England which is not the continent, as we all know......

I recall the infamous headline joke: Fog in channel - Europe cut off. I always thought that the fog was particularly thick in Whitehall.  

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: CaptainCrackers
Posted 2013-04-15 07:30:36 and read 5265 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 82):
Do not confuse direct and non-stop. A direct flight may include a stop en-route.

I've always considered this to be splitting hairs. What real passenger advantages do direct, one-stop flights have over two flights operated by cooperating partners? I can't think of any. What does everybody else think?

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-04-15 07:41:49 and read 5227 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 85):
I recall the infamous headline joke: Fog in channel - Europe cut off. I always thought that the fog was particularly thick in Whitehall.

I visit that country since 1967 regularly and I love them for that. Not only that, but the list would be too long....  
Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 86):
I've always considered this to be splitting hairs. What real passenger advantages do direct,

Don't know about other countries, but German tourists szued airlines and tour operators after they found out that their "direct" flight was not non-stop. "Direct" means same airline same aircraft from A to B and it may stop at an intermediate point.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-04-15 07:41:55 and read 5221 times.

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 86):
I can't think of any. What does everybody else think?

1. Well you are likely to have the same seat throughout the flight. That may or may not matter to some passengers.
2. More importantly, your luggage will not need to be off-loaded and transferred to another aircraft, reducing the risk of loss and damage.
3. In days gone by, you could stay on the aircraft at some locations so no need to take all your hand luggage, clear security and reboard. I don't know if that option is still available in large countries like the US and Canada, so I would welcome input on that.
4. Pricing sometimes makes a difference but not always and less common.


Edited: I missed the most obvious. You will never miss a connection!

[Edited 2013-04-15 07:46:48]

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: TC957
Posted 2013-04-15 07:57:35 and read 5203 times.

Given QF's loss to FRA, should LH re-launch SYD ? I would have thought with all their regional and domestic feed they could make a SYD service work, but I guess the question might be via where they operate it.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Semaex
Posted 2013-04-15 08:06:17 and read 5173 times.

Quoting something (Reply 65):
QF is not flying to Europe independently any longer. All of their flights now route via DXB (as opposed to SIN) in a joint-venture-like enterprise with EK, therefore a Qantas flight from SYD-DXB-BER would also be an Emirates flight SYD-DXB-BER. Consequentially, if AB feeds QF at BER (or wherever else), they feed EK.

I don't know why you keep on suggesting that I meant DXB as a gateway for BER-Australia traffic, because I didn't.
A QF or JQ flight Australia -> SE Asia -> BER v.v. would have nothing to do with EK. Absolutely nothing.
I realize QF doesn't do Europe Ops on their own metal anymore. But I'm not bound to think inside the box and seeing the status quo as the ultimate future. I'm referring to opinion, as we all do.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-04-15 08:15:23 and read 5170 times.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 89):
Given QF's loss to FRA, should LH re-launch SYD ? I would have thought with all their regional and domestic feed they could make a SYD service work, but I guess the question might be via where they operate it.

LH offers Australia via BKK (TG) and SIN (SQ) and they would lose their shirts if they intend to fly their own metal just to one destination in Oz. Tying up 3 aircraft simply does not do the trick anymore and the fares are dictated by carriers which have a cost base some 40% below that of LH..

Even if there would be an aircraft available flying nn-stop it would just serve one destination,,, Can't beat the scissor hubs.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: something
Posted 2013-04-15 08:55:34 and read 5051 times.

First of all, you all need to chill out with the ''economy passengers are dumb'' comment. That is clearly not what he meant but rather that airlines treat them like dummies (that'll accept everything) because their purchasing decision is driven by price, not by quality primarily. If you find his comment offensive, then you find capitalism offensive where people get what they pay for.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 90):
I don't know why you keep on suggesting that I meant DXB as a gateway for BER-Australia traffic, because I didn't.
A QF or JQ flight Australia -> SE Asia -> BER v.v. would have nothing to do with EK. Absolutely nothing.
I realize QF doesn't do Europe Ops on their own metal anymore. But I'm not bound to think inside the box and seeing the status quo as the ultimate future. I'm referring to opinion, as we all do.

Because according to the CEO of Qantas, SIN is their hub for Asia flights. Europe flights are henceforth routed via Dubai.

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
The CEO of Qantas thinks they can - and may - operate into Berlin:

http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-tips-...787-routes-beijing-hong-kong-india

"But a bigger reach for the Red Roo isn't wholly reliant on the Boeing 787-9, with Joyce also eyeing off other destinations in the shorter term.

"We're continuing to talk to Emirates about opportunities in continental Europe, and Berlin is one of them" Joyce said. "As this partnership is bedded down we'll be looking at opportunities for both airlines to expand their networks."

mariner

This contract is tentatively limited to a five years period after which it is to be re-assessed and -negotiated.

Aside from Qantas' commitment to the Dubai hub (they even renamed this service from the Kangaroo to the Falcon route), I'm not sure their scissor hub at SIN offers enough connections to make such an enterprise economically feasible. A BER-HKG flight with onwards connections could work. BER-BKK as the first leg has way too little premium demand to work. If QF were allowed to only sell tickets via Dubai to Australia, the service to Berlin couldn't be sustained.

If Qantas starts flying to BER, it will be via Dubai and in cooperation with EK. Therefore, every feed onto this flight would be feed into the EK network. But for all we know, QF may not even receive the necessary permissions to code-share with EK as that would blatantly circumvent the air service agreement between Germany and the UAE.

If, however, QF gets the green light to commence DXB-BER-DXB jointly with EK, there is no chance they'll start it via any other airport - all of which are less than promising propositions to begin with.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-04-15 08:59:38 and read 5056 times.

OK in all seriousness, does anyone think QANTAS will ever launch a new route to Europe? Non Jetstar on a VH- registered aicraft? I think the key question is how do you get the numbers to add up for them in a way that Emirates don't insist on doing with an A6- registered B777.

Again, this is not a relationship of equals IMHO. I think QF will remain dominant domestically in Australia but everything else may be on the table going forward.

[Edited 2013-04-15 09:06:02]

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-04-15 09:21:27 and read 4991 times.

Quoting something (Reply 92):
If you find his comment offensive, then you find capitalism offensive where people get what they pay for.

This statement I find offensive because it assumes too much. I'll overlook the exhortation to chill for the simple reason that I wasn't heated in the first place.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone expressing an opinion but I will respect one more if it is based on verifiable data rather than assumptions. Your claim is an example of making an assumption. I do not make assumptions on why particular individuals make a particular booking, I do not know these people, the reason for their travel, the ability to pay for a higher fare, the time they have available or any other contributing factors. I do not even know if they made the booking or whether somebody else did on their behalf: a company making a booking for an employee, for example.

To describe such people as "dumb" may be widespread within the industry but it is no more justified than describing black people as niggers, gay people as faggots or Israeli citizens as Yids. People have their own reasons for making particular and individual flight choices. I have attempted to illustrate some of mine although I don't suggest they are the case in every circumstance but I suspect that they are not uncommon.

In the particular circumstances I fail to understand why the airline would see me as dumb when what they are offering coincides with my needs in a way that other airlines are unwilling or unable to match. I also fail to see why I should be regarded as dumb if they provide what I actually want. How can an airline that provides what passengers actually want be accused of treating its passengers as dumb?

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: joost
Posted 2013-04-15 09:32:18 and read 4988 times.

Quoting CaptainCrackers (Reply 86):
I've always considered this to be splitting hairs. What real passenger advantages do direct, one-stop flights have over two flights operated by cooperating partners? I can't think of any. What does everybody else think?
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 88):
Edited: I missed the most obvious. You will never miss a connection!

After having flown AMS-SIN-DPS recently, a direct flight, I can also say that it has advantages over a connection. Indeed, it's worry-free because you don't have to worry about missing a connection or luggage, or find out where the connecting flight leaves from. Even when you need to leave the aircraft, it's more comfortable as you don't have to walk to another gate: the aircraft just stays where it is.

Also, transfer-times are typically short (for the aforementioned flight, 1:15) because it's just refueling and cleaning. I was pleasantly surprised about the concept.

The sole disadvantage I can think of is that there's no additional registration to be logged  
Quoting na (Reply 70):
That a 777 usually offers better seats is only because so many are new, and does speak zero in favour of the plane itself.

For cabin architecture: the 777 (and 330, 787) can fit the latest seat designs like the Cirrus reverse herringbone seat (US 330, CX 330/777, AA 77W) or the EADS Solstys (EY 332, AB new seats) offering direct aisle access to every seat, without loss of cabin space.

This compared to alternative full-flat seats without direct aisle access for any seat (B/E Diamond, Thompson Vantage, other older designs).

Due to it's specific architecture (narrowbody equivalent width on the upper deck, pointy nose), these seats don't fit well in the 747. In the case of DL, they have decided to install the seats anyway but with great loss of space. The only efficient lay-out here is the VS Upper Class Suite, but that one hasn't been very popular recently (CX and AC replacing it, DL not using it after the 777).

Apart from DL, other airlines with a recent offering in their 747s (LH, KL new seats, UA) have traditional lay-outs in a 2-2 config, so no direct aisle access for every seat.

Of course, it's a matter of supply & demand, but there isn't an efficient seat for the 747 hence you won't see it.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: something
Posted 2013-04-15 10:15:04 and read 4893 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 94):

Allow me to remind you of what na actually said:

Quoting na (Reply 70):
I agree if that opinion [that both 747 and 77W offer equal traveller comfort] is limited to Economy Class, and only if its 9 abreast in a 777. Then its doesnt really matter if you sit in a 747 or 777. But as its possible and "trendy" to cramp in 10 now even in Eco the 777 becomes more and more inferior here too. The average pax who flies longhaul once every tow years or so just doesnt know and doesnt check. He´s just a dump payng animal.

He said that a 77W and 747 are equal in travel comfort in economy class, provided the configuration of the former places 9 seats abreast. There is a difference however in configurations that feature 10 seats abreast, as has become commonplace. But even that is negligble as a factor, as passengers of those classes ''travel once every two years'' (ie aren't familiar with different airlines, aircraft, etc.). Those people's purchasing decision is based on factors other than comfort aboard or more specifically, the comfort of certain aircraft. He [na] does however contend that the same does not applies to

Quoting na (Reply 70):
high-yield passenger

and that the loss of 747s over 77W does not only bother him aesthetically

Quoting na (Reply 18):
FRA has become more and more boring in the last two years with so many now coming with the fat sausage from Seattle

but also as a ''high yield passenger'' who sees inferior comfort levels on 77Ws than on the 747s

Quoting na (Reply 70):
A 777 offers no match for the front compartment or upper deck of a 747

Sure, following your argument that

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 94):
I will respect one opinion more if it is based on verifiable data rather than assumptions.

you could question the veracity of his claim, as its foundation lacks ''verifiable data''. However, I would side with common sense and (anecdotal) experience in this case and agree that ''the average traveller'' indeed barely knows what airline they fly with, let alone the aircraft type.

Which is why, according to na the 77W proves so economically successful - people are willing to travel on it because it's cheap and it's cheap because it offers less comfort than other aircraft. ''The average traveller'' doesn't know about that and airlines exploit this ignorance - hence his characterization of them as ''dumb animals'' (in the eyes of airlines).

Your entire argument is predicated on the notion that people are presented with a variety of parameters that factor into their purchasing decision and that not all travellers are ''dumb''. Neither of which are part of na's argument. All he said was that 77Ws offer inferior comfort levels than 747s or A380s and that everybody who knows the difference, avoids 777s in favor of either of the aforementioned aircraft. The scientific merits of the methodology he employed to arrive at such conclusions may be open for debate indeed, but fixating on his choice of words has lead you and others to misinterprete his actual argument - which was not that economy passengers are stupid, but that the average economy class traveller, due to financial constraints, will make his purchasing decision dependend on the fare and not the aircraft. Premium passengers with greater price elasticity in their consumption patterns will act differently. And yes, this theoretical example is based on the economic principle of ''ceteris paribus'', ie everything else (total travel time, number of layovers, etc.) equal.

In essence, he was saying that economy passengers either can't afford to fly on ''nicer'' aircraft or that they simply don't fly often enough to even know the difference. Airlines exploit that ignorance by creating cheaper flights at the expense of inflight comfort levels.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-04-15 11:09:24 and read 4777 times.

Firstly I did not fixate on "his choice of words" but the conclusion that you drew from those who disagreed to them.

The inference from your conclusion, but I accept that maybe not have been the intent, is that passengers are too dumb to understand what is on offer.

While I opened myself up for criticism on selecting the last part of your sentence that you wrote, let me remind you of what you actually said.

Quoting something (Reply 92):
because their purchasing decision is driven by price, not by quality primarily.

Now while I agree that that price may be "a" determining factor, in the absence of any objective assessment of the reasons for travel, it is neither the sole factor nor necessarily "the" determining factor. That isn't a fault of yours but simply a reflection of the fact that booking engines to not require a reason for travel.

In some instances that may be true but there is no reliable data to prove it one way or another. If you have a "dumbometer" collated by airlines or governments I would welcome a link.

I am not assuming that there are not passengers who may make ill-informed decisions. I am not assuming that there are not passengers who might have made better choices. The only assumption that I am making is that many passengers can and do make decisions that best suit their circumstances. I also make the assertion that in the long run any airline employee or director who assumes that passengers are by definition dumb will find themselves out of a job.

There are plenty of airlines that made various assumptions that are no longer offering services on some routes and in some cases gone out of business.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: something
Posted 2013-04-15 13:41:12 and read 4570 times.

20:15 20:32t 20:32E LF QFA6 B744 EDDF WSSS VH-OJC Qantas

http://www7.pic-upload.de/15.04.13/kyhtrmpr8r8q.jpg

There she goes. Farewall Qantas!

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: B707MT
Posted 2013-04-15 13:52:05 and read 4528 times.

Yep, officially off-blox @ 2201 local, according to QF website, and airborne off 18 around 2235, as near as I can get it, thanks to FR24 http://www.flightradar24.com/ -

Final QF6 airborne Rwy 18 FRA - 15Apr13


Never see that again.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: lh526
Posted 2013-04-15 14:58:18 and read 4393 times.

After walking the ramp and a visit to the gate I've been on the Affenhügel at Starbahn West with a fellow A.netter and we waved QF Farewell ... despit it being a 20°C spring day we had a 4 minutes rain shower just when VH-OJC lifted off!

Farewell QF  

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: gemuser
Posted 2013-04-15 16:02:09 and read 4261 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 93):
OK in all seriousness, does anyone think QANTAS will ever launch a new route to Europe?

At this exact temporal location, who knows?
IMHO there is a good chance when the Boeing 7-late-7s arrive that you could see QF aircraft routing BNE/ADL/PER to DXB. That makes 3 DXB - Europe routes possible on QF metal. If that makes them economically viable, is entirely another question, the answer to which I have no idea.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-04-15 17:40:48 and read 4144 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 93):
OK in all seriousness, does anyone think QANTAS will ever launch a new route to Europe? Non Jetstar on a VH- registered aicraft?

In all seriousness, probably not before 2016 at the earliest. This is due to aircraft availability. Assuming they go ahead with the latest 767 retirement plan (gone by the end of next year IIRC) then they will be very very tight for wide body aircraft until the 787s and deferred A380s arrive.

There are a number of other variables that could free up some heavy metal, notably keeping more than the 9 planned 747s (which looks very unlikely, they're retiring them at a rate of knots) or ordering more 737s to take over domestic flying which would free up A330s. I guess another 737 top-up order is possible, but they ordered 5 just a couple of months ago, so it would appear that they're not interested in ordering the 30 frames they would need to replace the 767s (assuming 1:1.5 ratio)

Of course it is quite possible that they're planning to not retire all of the 767s after all. The plan before the current one had them remaining in the fleet until 2019/20, and knowing QF they will probably change it at least another two times before they stick to a plan.

If they do come up with a 767 solution (most likely keeping them them or ordering 737s) then we might see some European expansion.

Clearly EK is keen to push QF into markets they can't serve themselves. BER is one, I imagine STR, HAJ, CGN etc might be others considered in time. AMS might be another, I don't know what the Australia-Netherlands bilateral says (I'll look it up when I have time) but EK is maxed out with their 1 daily frequency. The A330 could make PER-DXB, so QF could hypothetically launch Europe pre-787 if they were able to play the numbers to make it work.

Don't forget that if they were to expand as EmiratesLink or EKConnection at DXB, it would most likely be with Dubai based crew hired on pretty favorable contracts. LHR crew base would be closed, and the DXB-Europe leg could be operated with a much lower cost base than QF mainline. This could improve the viability of the routes, even though QF's costs would still be higher than EK's

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-04-15 18:52:18 and read 4085 times.

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
"We're continuing to talk to Emirates about opportunities in continental Europe, and Berlin is one of them" Joyce said. "As this partnership is bedded down we'll be looking at opportunities for both airlines to expand their networks."

I remember the early discussions on the QF/EK alliance I was a HUGE proponent of QF using their latent bilateral rights for mutual gain. I was sad to see only FRA rights. Now it is either changing or in negotiation flux. Adding BER and STG to DXB would be of high value. I wonder if QF will pull it off?


Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-04-15 20:35:09 and read 3980 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 103):
I was sad to see only FRA rights. Now it is either changing or in negotiation flux.

It has emerged that the bilateral that we were working off, and [bizarrely] the one that the Australian Departing of Infrastructure and Transport links on its website, is in fact out of date. There have been revisions which would allow Australian carriers to fly to DUS, CGN, FRA, HAM, MUC + 1 other point. Obviously DUS, FRA, HAM and MUC wouldn't be of interest to EK, but it does allow QF to fly to CGN and BER/STR/HAJ. I expect BER might happen at some point, as Joyce indicated, but possibly not pre-2016.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-04-16 17:21:12 and read 3409 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 37):
The original agreement between Germany and Australia states:

Quote:
II. Route to be operated by an airline designated by the Commonwealth of Australia:

From Australia, via points in Indonesia, Singapore or Malaya, Thailand, Burma or Ceylon, India, Pakistan, Middle East, South and South-East Europe to Frankfurt/M. and beyond to the Netherlands and/or to the United Kingdom, in both directions.

Dubai is in the Middle East.

Except when that agreement was reached DXB didn't even have an airport, and when the original airport opened the following year (1960) the runway was made of compacted sand.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: gemuser
Posted 2013-04-16 17:34:33 and read 3387 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 105):

Except when that agreement was reached DXB didn't even have an airport, and when the original airport opened the following year (1960) the runway was made of compacted sand.

True, but so what? DXB IS in the Middle East and thereby allowed under the bi-lateral (assuming the info above is correct).

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-04-16 17:52:56 and read 3360 times.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 106):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 105):

Except when that agreement was reached DXB didn't even have an airport, and when the original airport opened the following year (1960) the runway was made of compacted sand.

True, but so what? DXB IS in the Middle East and thereby allowed under the bi-lateral (assuming the info above is correct).

I would question that interpretation when it involves an airport that didn't exist at the time the agreement was made. How could an agreement bind the parties to future conditions that weren't even foreseen at the time of the agreement? Something for the lawyers to debate.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-04-16 17:53:14 and read 3364 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 105):
Except when that agreement was reached DXB didn't even have an airport,

The agreement did not specify individual airports - note it says Pakistan and not Karachi, India and not Bombay? It states Middles East and not Abu Dhabi or Amman. Within the meaning of the agreement DXB can be included, despite the fact that the airport was not built at the time.

By the time that the 1996 Exchange of Notes accepting an amendment was made DXB was open. That amendment is far more liberal in that it does actually limit the route(s) that may be followed but simply states:

"2. Route to be operated by the airline or airlines designated by Australia:

From Australia via intermediate points to Düsseldorf or Cologne, Frankfurt/M., Hamburg and Munich and to an additional point, to be notified from time to time by the Australian aeronautical authorities, in lieu of one of the specified points in the Federal Republic of Germany, and to points beyond in both directions."

The "intermediate points" can be in any country that Australia has access to and that includes the UAE and Dubai.

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: gemuser
Posted 2013-04-16 18:17:20 and read 3325 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 107):

I would question that interpretation when it involves an airport that didn't exist at the time the agreement was made. How could an agreement bind the parties to future conditions that weren't even foreseen at the time of the agreement?

I take your point, but I don't think its a very strong one. The treaty defines areas, not airports. If your point held only airports in existence at the time of the treaty would be included. Not feasible and not normal practice.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 107):
Something for the lawyers to debate.

Actually bi-lateral International Treaties, in the aviation area, at least, only very rarely get to the courts. The governments involved usually send in the diplomats to sort it out.

Gemuser

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-04-16 22:18:28 and read 3191 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 107):
How could an agreement bind the parties to future conditions that weren't even foreseen at the time of the agreement?

I would argue that the deliberate use of geographic zones, rather than specific cities, was done precisely to not bind the parties to particular ports, and to build in room for future flexibility.

It is an interesting question, but in the circumstances I would respectfully suggest that the inclusion of DXB would fall within the scope of the parties' intention at the time that the agreement was made.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 109):
The governments involved usually send in the diplomats to sort it out.

On the basis of what their armies of lawyers tell them to do  

Topic: RE: Qantas Last Flight To Frankfurt: 14/04/13
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-04-16 22:23:57 and read 3180 times.

Correction:

In my post above


"that it does actually limit the route(s)"

should read

"that it does not actually limit the route(s)"


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