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Topic: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: stratosphere
Posted 2013-04-13 13:48:10 and read 16167 times.

So apparently two African American men are filing a federal discrimination lawsuit against USAIR for denying them boarding in first class until they changed their clothes asking them to remove their baseball caps and change into slacks instead of jeans. They also stated there were a white and a filipino that were allowed on with jeans. Well these two rocket scientists and their equally inept lawyer seem to forget is they both were on a BUDDY PASS given to them by an employee.. There are rules and dress codes when on an employee pass. Those other two who were in jeans you can bet were not riding a pass but leave it to NBC to play the race card that they are so good at playing. I hope the employee that gave them the passes loses his pass privileges permanently for being stupid enough to not educate the people he gives his passes to.

http://www.today.com/video/today/51527403/#51527403

[Edited 2013-04-13 13:48:59]

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: ushermittwoch
Posted 2013-04-13 14:06:13 and read 16067 times.

This will get thrown out in no time.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: maxamuus
Posted 2013-04-13 14:09:37 and read 16060 times.

Wonder if the employee has been fired?

I don't give out buddy passes, in fact when people ask about them I just tell them my airline did away with them.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2013-04-13 14:13:42 and read 16025 times.

Another shining example of why employees should never give out their buddy passes. They are generally not a particularly good deal anyway (at least domestically).

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: cv880
Posted 2013-04-13 14:17:33 and read 16000 times.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 2):
Wonder if the employee has been fired?

Employee should be fired and I would bet that the end of the "buddy pass" will be not too distant thanks to sleazebag attorneys such as this one. NBC should be raked over the coals for giving this credibility.

[Edited 2013-04-13 14:18:32]

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: nwcoflyer
Posted 2013-04-13 14:23:38 and read 15967 times.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 2):
I don't give out buddy passes, in fact when people ask about them I just tell them my airline did away with them.

I often find myself doing the same thing. Do someone a favor- and get shot in the foot. Only very close friends every get my buddy passes, and usually only when I am taveling with them.

Quoting cv880 (Reply 4):
Employee should be fired and I would bet that the end of the "buddy pass" will be not too distant thanks to sleazebag attorneys such as this one. NBC should be raked over the coals for giving this credibility.

I hear you there... I was thinking the same thing. As an employee of US, I have seen some pretty obscene behavior from pass travelers.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: maxamuus
Posted 2013-04-13 14:31:48 and read 15910 times.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 3):
They are generally not a particularly good deal anyway (at least domestically).

They aren't. In fact, a lot of times you can buy a confirmed ticket for less. Not to mention with the loads the way they are these days its sometimes next to impossible for a employee to pass travel, let alone someone on a buddy pass.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-04-13 14:36:36 and read 15873 times.

Delta has a relaxed dress code for all non revenue travel. There are some limitations (no revealing/vulgar etc.), but not many.

I give my buddy pass riders a thorough and complete rundown on what is to be expected of them. Rule number one...NO ARGUMENTS WITH ANYONE FOR ANY REASON. Any problems are to be handled through ME! I am usually online when they're checking in/at the gate and can see what the situation is and am able to let them know ahead of time if there might be a problem. All (6) of my buddy pass riders are experienced and have traveled S4 many times from JFK to STI, GIG, BOG, CDG, BKK, and HKG. They've never been a problem because they know they've got a good thing going.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 6):
Not to mention with the loads the way they are these days its sometimes next to impossible for a employee to pass travel, let alone someone on a buddy pass.

It's either you can't get out or can't get back.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 6):
They aren't. In fact, a lot of times you can buy a confirmed ticket for less

I give them out only on international flights. It's a better value and there's a better chance for an upgrade.

[Edited 2013-04-13 14:48:44]

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: cvg2lga
Posted 2013-04-13 15:29:18 and read 15681 times.

Pass priveleges revoked; maybe.
I can only hope that the employee advised the pass riders of the rules & what to/not to do's. I'm a firm believer that people should be held responsible for themselves. Contrary to what folks like to think, I cannot control the actions/words of my friends & family when I am not with them. With that being said, it is a wise choice that must be made by ourselves on whom to extend our pass priviliges to. The employee should definitely not be fired.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-04-13 15:38:36 and read 15619 times.

NBC's coverage of this is so unbelievably disingenuous it's staggering.

They play this whole thing up and set the stage for outrage; these men were asked to change clothes, they were First Class customers, there were other customers in F that were wearing jeans/hoodies and they didn't receive the same warning from the agent, etc.

Only later does NBC slip in "Oh, and they were traveling on a buddy pass at a 'greatly reduced rate'".

These two assclowns need to be banned from flying US; they've not only abused the buddy pass benefit by calling negative attention to US when they failed to adhere to non-rev policies but also filing a lawsuit based on it.

And the willing lapdog accomplices in the media, eager to gain clicks/eyeballs through a sensationalistic headline, are all too willing to oblige these morons in their quest.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-04-13 15:57:21 and read 15512 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
they were First Class customers,

Well, that is blatantly false of course. Difference between being a customer and being the help. These men (extrapolating?) must be so wealthy, they've never learned about that.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2013-04-13 15:59:59 and read 15500 times.

Quoting stratosphere (Thread starter):
I hope the employee that gave them the passes loses his pass privileges permanently for being stupid enough to not educate the people he gives his passes to.

He will probably have his pass privileges suspended. Not permanently taken away.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 2):
Wonder if the employee has been fired?

Considering the employee didn't directly do anything wrong, I think firing would be over the top, not to mention it would leave US open to an easy wrongful termination lawsuit.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 3):
Another shining example of why employees should never give out their buddy passes.

Notwithstanding the fact that buddy passes are nearly worthless these days, the whole idea of them is to be given away. Close family can usually travel on employee benefits - buddy passes are for just that..."buddies."

Quoting cv880 (Reply 4):
Employee should be fired and I would bet that the end of the "buddy pass" will be not too distant thanks to sleazebag attorneys such as this one.

I don't get where this knee-jerk reaction of "fire him" is coming from. This could have happened to anyone - granted, I don't know how well the employee knew these guys, but almost everyone has had a friend or two who has done something out of the blue that was completely out of character.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-04-13 16:12:22 and read 15435 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
Notwithstanding the fact that buddy passes are nearly worthless these days, the whole idea of them is to be given away.

You make it sound as if the company actively encourages buddy pass use, and that's not true. In fact, airlines that offer buddy passes/guest passes routinely make a point of reminding employees to use extreme discretion on who they give them to.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2013-04-13 16:18:35 and read 15402 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 12):
You make it sound as if the company actively encourages buddy pass use, and that's not true. In fact, airlines that offer buddy passes/guest passes routinely make a point of reminding employees to use extreme discretion on who they give them to.

Giving buddy passes to employees IS actively encouraging their use. Yes, it's up to the employee to use discretion as to who gets them - obviously they aren't advocating giving them to strangers. But the fact remains that you cannot predict with 100% certainty how a person will act. Family members could do the same and there is no policy that states that if the employee's mother misbehaves on a flight, the employee is subject to termination.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: stratosphere
Posted 2013-04-13 16:26:38 and read 15347 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
I don't get where this knee-jerk reaction of "fire him" is coming from. This could have happened to anyone - granted, I don't know how well the employee knew these guys, but almost everyone has had a friend or two who has done something out of the blue that was completely out of character.

I am not advocating his firing but he should have his buddy passes permanently revoked for not educating the people he gave them to on proper dress code for pass riders in F/C. Also I am sure these two told the person they got them from what happened again this should have been an opportunity to educate these guys before they did something even more stupid like filing a discrimination lawsuit. Maybe the employee should have any legal costs UsAir incurs deducted from his/her paycheck that would be a wake up call to anyone who still wants to give someone a buddy pass. When I worked for the pax airlines I usually rode with my pass rider infact NW required it at one point then relaxed the rules then someone would do something stuipid like these guys and that restriction came back for a while. Bottom line don't give a buddy pass to someone you don't know real well and without a through understanding of the rules and what hazards usually accompany pass travel to popular destinations.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: maxamuus
Posted 2013-04-13 16:34:09 and read 15321 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 13):
Family members could do the same and there is no policy that states that if the employee's mother misbehaves on a flight, the employee is subject to termination.

I would suggest you reread your pass policy. Misuse and abuse of passes can and do lead to termination.

I am not suggesting that the employee should be fired, however I would imagine US is a little miffed to see their name in the headlines with a racial discrimination lawsuit on their hands by pass-riders.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-04-13 16:35:03 and read 15319 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 13):
Giving buddy passes to employees IS actively encouraging their use.

I disagree; giving buddy passes to employees is something carriers have been reluctant to do, but have adopted the policy as it has become a standard "benefit" at just about every U.S. carrier.

They've justified the offering of these passes by calling it a benefit - not something that is guaranteed under a CBA, etc. - and also have hopes of potentially turning non-rev customers into full-fare revenue customers at a later time. But make no mistake - this is not something carriers leaped at the opportunity to provide, and it's certainly not "encouraged".

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: sulley
Posted 2013-04-13 16:36:43 and read 15308 times.

Reason 5,238,720 to NEVER give out ANY buddy passes, EVER.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-13 16:51:50 and read 15247 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
Quoting maxamuus (Reply 2):Wonder if the employee has been fired?
Considering the employee didn't directly do anything wrong, I think firing would be over the top, not to mention it would leave US open to an easy wrongful termination lawsuit.
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
Quoting cv880 (Reply 4):Employee should be fired and I would bet that the end of the "buddy pass" will be not too distant thanks to sleazebag attorneys such as this one.
I don't get where this knee-jerk reaction of "fire him" is coming from. This could have happened to anyone - granted, I don't know how well the employee knew these guys, but almost everyone has had a friend or two who has done something out of the blue that was completely out of character.
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 12):
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):Notwithstanding the fact that buddy passes are nearly worthless these days, the whole idea of them is to be given away.
You make it sound as if the company actively encourages buddy pass use, and that's not true. In fact, airlines that offer buddy passes/guest passes routinely make a point of reminding employees to use extreme discretion on who they give them to.
Quoting maxamuus (Reply 15):
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 13):Family members could do the same and there is no policy that states that if the employee's mother misbehaves on a flight, the employee is subject to termination.
I would suggest you reread your pass policy. Misuse and abuse of passes can and do lead to termination.

I am not suggesting that the employee should be fired, however I would imagine US is a little miffed to see their name in the headlines with a racial discrimination lawsuit on their hands by pass-riders.

There IS always the possibility that no matter how much you brief the people you give your buddy passes to, they will completely ignore what you said and go ahead and break the rules, anyway, which is why I don't think the employee should be responsible for those travelers' behavior. More than likely, these people are adults. If they can't follow some simple guidelines, they probably shouldn't be travelling, anyway. This pair doesn't sound like they are very close friends of the employee, anyway, but if they are, I think I would immediately terminate this friendship.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: ozark1
Posted 2013-04-13 18:07:48 and read 14877 times.

I am VERY picky about who I put on my buddy pass list. The bottom line is, the employee is responsible. If they were friends of his, then he needs new friends, or even worse, if he just sold them to make money then that's a whole other investigation. His pass privileges should be immediately revoked.
AND they AREN'T free either!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-04-13 19:08:28 and read 14372 times.

Quoting cv880 (Reply 4):
Employee should be fired

That's rather harsh. No more buddy passes for them for a while, sure, but to lose their job over something they didn't have direct control over is silly.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: JBAirwaysFan
Posted 2013-04-13 19:47:24 and read 14067 times.

This is also assuming the employee didn't brief them on the dos and don'ts of non-rev travel. One can also assume they decided to "go for it" and get on out of dress code. Personally, if I gave out a buddy pass I would tell so and so the dos and don'ts. If I got fired because they didn't listen, they'd owe me money for a long, long time.

You should use discretion over giving out a buddy pass. If I ever had the opportunity to give one out, I'd probably reserve it for extended family who travel often.

Honestly, I'd be more worried about something happening with my parents like this than friends. And boy, if my parents got me fired. Oh, they'd be paying me out the wazoo.

One more thing, I really don't see the need to dress a certain way when traveling in first class. You're not on the job, and you can't readily be identified as an employee of the airline (AFAIK). What's the big deal? Ugh even if I had flight benefits I probably wouldn't use them except for an emergency situation. I'd still be booking flights like anyone else.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-13 20:38:22 and read 13730 times.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 21):
One more thing, I really don't see the need to dress a certain way when traveling in first class.

Don't know about the other airlines, but at DL there IS no difference in the dress code (such as it is) between coach and first class. A couple of decades ago, there WAS a dress code and it was different depending on where you were sitting (or wanted to sit). Gradually, the dress code changed and was relaxed, slightly. Then, in about 2006 or 2007 (I'm still talking about DL) it was relaxed completely, for the most part. There are still some things you can't wear, but it's a far cry from the days when you were the only one at MCO wearing a suit and tie.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 21):
You should use discretion over giving out a buddy pass. If I ever had the opportunity to give one out, I'd probably reserve it for extended family who travel often.

I think most of us still do use discretion (threats work, too). You still get people that give them out, willy nilly, with no thought of the consequences. There are also those that sell them, but they'll get caught eventually, too, especially if something like this case happens to them.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-04-13 20:40:40 and read 13715 times.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 21):
Ugh even if I had flight benefits I probably wouldn't use them except for an emergency situation. I'd still be booking flights like anyone else.

  Sure you would  

Why would anyone be at an airline if not for the flight benefits. Certainly not for the pay.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-13 20:46:56 and read 13658 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 23):
Why would anyone be at an airline if not for the flight benefits. Certainly not for the pay.

I knew people that were working there SOLEY for the flight benefits.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: MCOflyer
Posted 2013-04-13 20:58:58 and read 14027 times.

The employee should be liable. He/She gave those buddy passes out knowing their behavior would reflect on him or her. I think firing is over the edge but suspending the privileges is a good idea in this case. Hopefully, other employees do not have to suffer as a result of this suit.

KH

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-13 21:06:11 and read 13977 times.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 25):
The employee should be liable. He/She gave those buddy passes out knowing their behavior would reflect on him or her. I think firing is over the edge but suspending the privileges is a good idea in this case. Hopefully, other employees do not have to suffer as a result of this suit.

Oh, I realize that, with the way the system is set up, now, the employee IS responsible. I just don't think they should be......you could probably talk until you were blue in the face and they still wouldn't follow the rules. I guess if you had doubts, you could refuse to give them out, but what if, they said that they understood and they would be good little boys and girls and they STILL messed up?

I guess the only solution would be to make sure that you only gave them out to people that you trusted, unflinchingly. Otherwise, they might as well be toilet paper.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2013-04-13 21:14:39 and read 14156 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 23):

...but...but...I work there for the pay  

It's true. Nothing beats a confirmed seat.

But it's also true that I would never fly business/first as much as I do if it weren't for the bennies.

That said, I won't give out my passes. And I have lots to give out a year but I'm not risking it

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-04-13 21:17:59 and read 14140 times.

Quoting cvg2lga (Reply 8):
Pass priveleges revoked; maybe.

I guarantee you their flight benefits have been suspended.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
He will probably have his pass privileges suspended. Not permanently taken away.

The last time I heard of someone losing their flight benefits, it was for 2 years, and for way less of an issue than this.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
not to mention it would leave US open to an easy wrongful termination lawsuit.

Hardly. It's stated very clearly that the employee is held accountable for the conduct of their pass travelers, and that any type of abuse, misuse, or violation of stated rules is grounds for discipline up to, and including termination.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 23):


Why would anyone be at an airline if not for the flight benefits. Certainly not for the pay.

I know people that have worked for the airlines for 15+ years and have never had a passport and fly twice a year. The biggest reasons I hear are insurance and flexibility, but mostly insurance.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: bluewhale18210
Posted 2013-04-13 21:20:02 and read 14091 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 22):
There are still some things you can't wear, but it's a far cry from the days when you were the only one at MCO wearing a suit and tie.

Yeah, but back then you can actually GET ON!!!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2013-04-13 21:21:27 and read 14131 times.

I am confused about one thing in this lawsuit, when did US ever fly DEN-LAX? Nothing mentions any kind of connection in PHX. Are they sure they are even suing the right airline?

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-04-13 21:28:45 and read 14049 times.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 27):
But it's also true that I would never fly business/first as much as I do if it weren't for the bennies.

If not for the flight benefits, I wouldn't even SEE the front cabin.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: Schweigend
Posted 2013-04-13 22:49:44 and read 13625 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 26):
I guess the only solution would be to make sure that you only gave them out to people that you trusted, unflinchingly. Otherwise, they might as well be toilet paper.

I would not mind at all if we went back to Buddy travel being employee-accompanied only, as it was originally. I thought the system was meant to benefit the employee who wanted to travel with friends...not to allow friends to get cheap seats and travel alone.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 6):
In fact, a lot of times you can buy a confirmed ticket for less. Not to mention with the loads the way they are these days its sometimes next to impossible for a employee to pass travel, let alone someone on a buddy pass.

And unaccompanied buddy pass riders being confirmed in First is uncommon, especially after all Elites and other higher-priority standbys have been upgraded.

US must have had a very lightly loaded F cabin on the flight in question.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 30):
I am confused about one thing in this lawsuit, when did US ever fly DEN-LAX? Nothing mentions any kind of connection in PHX. Are they sure they are even suing the right airline?

Me too -- a PHX conx would've been unavoidable for these gentlemen.

Did this happen at DEN or PHX? The very poor NBC article states only DEN-LAX, but not where the incident actually took place:

Quote:
they were headed home from denver for los angeles after attending a relative's funeral last august

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-04-13 23:48:06 and read 13394 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 23):
Why would anyone be at an airline if not for the flight benefits. Certainly not for the pay.
Quoting mayor (Reply 24):
I knew people that were working there SOLEY for the flight benefits.
Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 27):
...but...but...I work there for the pay

I'd work for an airline to be around aviation   

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: RIXrat
Posted 2013-04-14 01:43:22 and read 13066 times.

Thanks to my cousin, who is a retired senior VP at DL, my wife and I were able to ride AMS-ATL in business lie down flat on a B764 in 2008. The experience was something else and per instructions from my cousin, I did wear proper slacks and a sports jacket. The connecting flight ended in TUS where we could not get first class, but we behaved well and the whole route cost us $325 each. Not bad, I would say.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: flyingthe757
Posted 2013-04-14 02:03:36 and read 12906 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 23):
Why would anyone be at an airline if not for the flight benefits. Certainly not for the pay.

I work for the buzz of the industry, to deal with customers, and know I'm making a difference and hopefully my customer service skills will bring that customer back. Benefits of course are fantastic, but generally I only use my ticket once a year now. A few friends are on my concessions and they have had the brief on what to do/not do and they understand that.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: jagflyer
Posted 2013-04-14 07:11:46 and read 11203 times.

As someone who has flight passes, I do not understand why jeans would not be allowed. No one on the flight except maybe the flight attendants know who you are and that you're travelling on non-rev passes. I'd be more concerned with trying to get passengers to try and blend in rather than getting them to wear certain types of clothing. There is no dress code for J or F nor Y (as long as you are not topless/scantily clad) so I do not see what the issue is here. Staff travellers on passes should have no special dress codes that regular passengers don't have. If anything it'll keep them from sticking out along the revenue passengers. As long as you are not wearing ripped clothing, tank tops, beachwear, or inappropriate t-shirts you are good to go on passes with my airline.

[Edited 2013-04-14 07:13:24]

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 07:38:11 and read 11002 times.

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 34):
The experience was something else and per instructions from my cousin, I did wear proper slacks and a sports jacket.

Don't know why. IIRC, the dress code on DL, should have already been updated, so a sports jacket and slacks wouldn't have been required in Business Elite, so even jeans would have been ok. I think the dress code was changed in 2006 or 2007.

Quoting jagflyer (Reply 41):

So, what is US dress code, specifically for first class?

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: PanAm1971
Posted 2013-04-14 07:40:56 and read 11006 times.

I have a good friend who is a pilot for US. I was on his list for a long time. I was more than happy to dress up slightly for the privilege. Coming back from Oktoberfest was always interesting though.   My point-it's not that hard to follow the rules.

However, what these guys are saying is-essentially-that whatever the policy may be-it is not a cultural norm for them to dress in the manner the rules state, and as such, unless everyone (meaning all the passengers) is made to dress in exactly the same manner, it amounts to a form of discrimination.... buddy pass or no buddy pass. I hate to tell you... but they have an arguable case. It is not a strong case. But they do have an argument. They'll probably lose (or US will settle). But if it actually sees a courtroom... this is not a 100% slam dunk against the plaintiffs.

[Edited 2013-04-14 07:45:30]

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: EASTERN747
Posted 2013-04-14 07:42:02 and read 11024 times.

I can remember standing by for a PA 747 from JFK-FRA. The flight looked pretty full and I was on a pass working for another airline. Departure time was fast approaching and the gate agent called out a name and mine. The guy in front of me had no tie on and the agent asked if he ad one. He said it was in his bag. I had a suit and tie on. The agent said no time...we are ready. Called out my name and handed me my boarding pass. Seat 1A. As I boarded the door was closed behind me and off we went. I was offered dining in the sky upstairs in the lounge upstairs. That was a real treat.....all because of a tie.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 08:18:08 and read 10691 times.

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 40):
It is not a strong case. But they do have an argument.

Not if they knew the rules going in, before they accepted the buddy passes or even before they used them. That wouldn't work for an airline employee and it wouldn't work for any other pass riders, either.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: davs5032
Posted 2013-04-14 08:30:02 and read 10620 times.

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 40):
However, what these guys are saying is-essentially-that whatever the policy may be-it is not a cultural norm for them to dress in the manner the rules state, and as such, unless everyone (meaning all the passengers) is made to dress in exactly the same manner, it amounts to a form of discrimination.... buddy pass or no buddy pass. I hate to tell you... but they have an arguable case. It is not a strong case. But they do have an argument. They'll probably lose (or US will settle). But if it actually sees a courtroom... this is not a 100% slam dunk against the plaintiffs.

Depending on the nature of their particular claim, I'd say it's as close to a slam dunk as you can get. Keep in mind, (at least from the details shared in the thread), it would appear they're arguing this solely based on *racial* discrimination. If that's indeed the case, I don't see how they can get this very far. The dress code rules (assuming they're plainly laid out) don't discriminate against race in any way, shape, or form, so that's a dead-end argument. If they're arguing that the discrimination is based on some sort of lower class, higher class standard, then that would at least attack the fairness of the rule itself, but even then, it's not likely to have any merit whatsoever, especially given their using the buddy passes, for which the airline is well within its rights to stipulate a certain dress code, whether more stringent than the normal F requirements or not.

I for one hope USair doesn't settle this, as such actions by companies against frivolous claims like this are a sign of "giving in" and only invite more baseless claims like this in the future. Race card, free lunch suits like this have made a mockery of the legal system, and at some point, a principle stance has to be taken as a deterrent. I also wouldn't mind one bit if sanctions were levied against the attorney for stooping to this level.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 09:00:41 and read 10359 times.

I'd say it all depends on whether or not the employee that gave these passes out, told the recipients of the dress code ahead of time. If the employee can verify that he or she, did, then the case is dead, right there. If the employee DIDN'T, then we have a problem. Any employee, no matter the airline, should give someone they give passes to, all the rules and regs that they need to know, basically to CYOA, althought if they just ignore what you say, it doesn't make that much difference, unless it ends up like this.



I'm reminded of a story, not long after DL came out with the buddy pass program. An employee gives out several passes to a group of friends. They use them to fly to Paris. There was still a stricter dress code in play. Before they arrived in Paris, they went to the lavs and changed clothes into non-dress code duds. The F/A caught them and told them to change back. Arguments ensued and when they got to Paris, the station manager met them and tore up their buddy passes, requring them to buy tickets to return home.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: JBAirwaysFan
Posted 2013-04-14 09:05:28 and read 10359 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 23):
 Sure you would  

Why would anyone be at an airline if not for the flight benefits. Certainly not for the pay.

Dead serious. There are more airline employees than those who work the ticket counters or baggage handlers. If you work in the corporate offices you do pretty well depending on the airline, and you still have the flight benefits. I've interviewed for airlines in the past, actually once just recently for a corporate position. The flight benefits were the last thing on my mind. If it was a family emergency (parents and siblings live in FL) I'd use them. However if I was going on vacation, I'd book a flight like anyone else. I really wouldn't want to be standing in the airport all day hoping to get on a flight. I'd rather just know when I'm leaving and get to the airport my usual 1.5 to 2 hours beforehand knowing I have a confirmed seat assignment and go.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 09:19:17 and read 10220 times.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 45):

And yet, thousands of us, active and retired, do just that, every day. Amazing, huh?

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-04-14 09:57:51 and read 9916 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
but to lose their job over something they didn't have direct control over is silly.

This is too perfect. Employee might have been in on the plan to bamboozle company. It's almost like a lawyer read the policy and hatched the whole plan. It's not that hard to hatch this plan if you read the policy. Doesn't take a genius... just a scumbag.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 21):
What's the big deal?

It's practically free for employees. Do you really want to pay for F and have shabbily dressed people who did not pay to be there? Or a careless low-wage employee and her 4 kids making a non-paying racket? It would drive me nuts in a hurry. It's disrespectful and unfair to the __paying customer__ -- whatever age and/or color they may be. The business cares about the paying customer, full stop.

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 40):
unless everyone (meaning all the passengers) is made to dress in exactly the same manner, it amounts to a form of discrimination.... buddy pass or no buddy pass. I hate to tell you... but they have an arguable case.

That their dress code isn't a 'cultural norm' for African Americans? Maybe it isn't a cultural norm for anybody. It is a dress code for non-paying guests, which is what they are.

If there were white or asian nonrevs in F who didn't have to change, that would be the ONLY case here. This is a racial complaint based on a totally color-blind policy. Complaints like this hurt everyone. It is nothing new for businesses to have a dress code for employees.

If this results in non-revs having the same rights as paying customers, it shifts the tax category of non-revving and you can kiss it all goodbye.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2013-04-14 10:13:19 and read 9785 times.

Quoting cvg2lga (Reply 8):
Pass priveleges revoked; maybe.
I can only hope that the employee advised the pass riders of the rules & what to/not to do's. I'm a firm believer that people should be held responsible for themselves. Contrary to what folks like to think, I cannot control the actions/words of my friends & family when I am not with them. With that being said, it is a wise choice that must be made by ourselves on whom to extend our pass priviliges to. The employee should definitely not be fired.
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 11):
Considering the employee didn't directly do anything wrong, I think firing would be over the top, not to mention it would leave US open to an easy wrongful termination lawsuit.
Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
That's rather harsh. No more buddy passes for them for a while, sure, but to lose their job over something they didn't have direct control over is silly.

I disagree, the employee should be fired! Back in the day, we had paper buddy passes that were much easier to hand out to friends and family. One employee gave it to a friend, to ended up selling it on Craigslist! Once it came back that this non-rev passenger had actually bought the buddy pass, that Employee was terminated and our entire buddy pass system was overhauled.

Buddy Passes and non-rev travel is a privilege, not a right and if you or your buddy cause a scene or misuse the system, you should be terminated. This lawsuit is ridiculous and should be thrown out right away, and these individuals should be barred from ever flying US Airways! And just for the negative press alone, the employee should be FIRED!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 10:25:17 and read 9718 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 47):
It's practically free for employees. Do you really want to pay for F and have shabbily dressed people who did not pay to be there? Or a careless low-wage employee and her 4 kids making a non-paying racket? It would drive me nuts in a hurry. It's disrespectful and unfair to the __paying customer__ -- whatever age and/or color they may be. The business cares about the paying customer, full stop.

Well, there virtually is NO dress code for paying pax and, depending on the airline, almost none or a very relaxed one for the employees and pass riders. Most employees should know the ropes on how to fly and not advertise who or what they are. Same thing applies for the people they give passes to.




The point is, these people are flying standby, with the rules and regulations that apply to that, which are the same as what apply to the employees when they fly. Simple as that. If this pair KNEW of the rules and regulations, beforehand, then they have nothing to stand on. If they didn't, the airline handled it badly, BUT the rules and regs are still there. Either way, there was NO discrimination involved in it, no matter how much they would like to make us think there was.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: flyingthe757
Posted 2013-04-14 10:27:37 and read 9672 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 48):
Buddy Passes and non-rev travel is a privilege, not a right and if you or your buddy cause a scene or misuse the system, you should be terminated. This lawsuit is ridiculous and should be thrown out right away, and these individuals should be barred from ever flying US Airways! And just for the negative press alone, the employee should be FIRED!

I don't agree. Terminate the persons staff travel, of course, but to fire him....No way....

He was not there, he was not on the plane, he was not involved personally in the issue that took place. Discipline the person of course, but firing is way too harsh

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 10:34:56 and read 9627 times.

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 50):
I don't agree. Terminate the persons staff travel, of course, but to fire him....No way....

He was not there, he was not on the plane, he was not involved personally in the issue that took place. Discipline the person of course, but firing is way too harsh

Not sure how US is set up, but at DL this is exactly what can happen. Employees are responsible for the actions of the people they give passes to. Even though I don't agree with this, it's the way things are. Sometimes I feel that employees completely ignore these warnings and this is what happens.

If the employee explained the rules, etc. beforehand, then they shouldn't be punished. If they didn't, well, that's a different story.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2013-04-14 10:42:51 and read 9559 times.

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 50):
I don't agree. Terminate the persons staff travel, of course, but to fire him....No way....

He was not there, he was not on the plane, he was not involved personally in the issue that took place. Discipline the person of course, but firing is way too harsh

If the incident happened at the gate and the passengers refused to change at that's all the farther it went, then yes I can see it just being the pass benefits that get revoked, maybe even a short suspension.

But strictly because this went public and is now going to court and is costing US Airways legal and attorney fees and the bad press that the PR department will now have to deal with, this employee 100% should be and most likely, WILL be fired! Buddy passes can come back to bite you hard and this is a perfect example of your buddies not knowing the proper non revenue procedures and dress codes for the flight. You as an employee are responsible for your friends traveling on the flight and if any issues arise, you bare all of the consequences, up to and including termination. That is the way buddy passes have and continue to work to this day and that is the reason so many employees are extremely hesitant to give them out!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-04-14 10:45:17 and read 9541 times.

There should be some sort of printed form that a buddy pass rider has to sign before the buddy pass is issued. Delta has a list of procedures here : http://travelinfo.delta.com/dlnonrev/TravelGuide.htm

Click on the right for more details

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2013-04-14 10:47:34 and read 9452 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 51):
If the employee explained the rules, etc. beforehand, then they shouldn't be punished. If they didn't, well, that's a different story.

I think Northwest back in the day made the actual employee travel with the pass rider. While that is not always practical and is surely an inconvenience to the employee, it would make sure problems like this never arise!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 10:53:35 and read 9394 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 52):
But strictly because this went public and is now going to court and is costing US Airways legal and attorney fees and the bad press that the PR department will now have to deal with, this employee 100% should be and most likely, WILL be fired! Buddy passes can come back to bite you hard and this is a perfect example of your buddies not knowing the proper non revenue procedures and dress codes for the flight. You as an employee are responsible for your friends traveling on the flight and if any issues arise, you bare all of the consequences, up to and including termination. That is the way buddy passes have and continue to work to this day and that is the reason so many employees are extremely hesitant to give them out!

And this is exactly why the employee shouldn't be fired because he wasn't involved. If he explained the rules and regs to these people and they understood, then they deliberately ignored what they were told. How is the employee responsible for this? However, if he failed to explain what was going on, then beware. Like I mentioned, earlier, threats might work when explaining the rules.

And you're right.....this is exactly why employees or retirees are hesitant to give them out. They just can't take that chance.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2013-04-14 11:10:47 and read 9236 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 55):
And this is exactly why the employee shouldn't be fired because he wasn't involved. If he explained the rules and regs to these people and they understood, then they deliberately ignored what they were told. How is the employee responsible for this?

Because he was involved, as in the buddy passes were under his name. I understand he was not there at the gate, traveling with the passengers in question, but in the end, someone will have to pay the consequences for these individuals and it always goes back to the employee who issued these buddy passes. At the same time, it's the employees fault for also not using better judgment when giving these passes out. It's a crazy, stupid system I agree, but at the end of the day, the airline will have to punish someone for what happened and quite frankly, besides the employee their is no one else to punish.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know the position that this employee worked for at US Airways? If the employee is a Pilot or Flight Attendant or is otherwise unionized, he might have a chance to keep his job. But I hate to say it, but if this employee is a baggage handler or something, I still say he will will be terminated, based on my experiences from major, public, non-rev issues like this!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: XT6Wagon
Posted 2013-04-14 11:18:01 and read 9198 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 55):
And this is exactly why the employee shouldn't be fired because he wasn't involved.

He WAS involved. It was his pass(es) that were used. He is responsible for the people that he allows to use his benifits.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: billreid
Posted 2013-04-14 11:21:25 and read 9184 times.

This is actually a great story that raises some interesting questions.
I for one believe that "buddy Passes no longer work, and the airlines could generally care less if they ever get used. In most cases it would be next to impossible for a Pass to get into 1st anyway.

However.....
What if the pass travelers were not aware of the policy?
What if the pass travel was more expensive than the revenue passengers paid?

I had a tiff with a SA)">UA gate agent in the mid 90's regarding pass travel.
I worked for a Cargo airline and had a ID-50 PS ticked on SA)">UA. They closed the door just before I arrived from a connection a good 15 minutes before scheduled departure in SFO, they closed the door after all revenue passengers were on board I was told. I argued with the agent that "that is fine but do you find a $517 Pass ticket non-revenue?"
He called a supervisor and the supervisor agreed that I was positive space and a revenue passenger.
The aircraft left ten minutes late with 27 empty seats, and sat at the gate for 25 minutes with the door closed.
I had to wait over six hours for the next flight anyway.
So much for industry travel and revenue respect...
The point is that pass travel is not always revenue-neutral. Is a $300 pass not a source of revenue for the airline, and thereby should the passenger be treated any different than the passenger that only paid $178 for the same class of service?

I always abided by pass rules especially as a industry traveller on another companies equipment I was always at the mercy of a company employee who usually could care less if SA got on board. It is more interest when positive space industry discount is denied boarding.

A hint for pass travelers that do not work for that company. Bring some sort of token to say thanks to staff serving you. Staff will appreciate the gesture and treat other airline staff better. Same applies to buddy pass, a nice gesture goes a long way.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 11:54:11 and read 8966 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 56):
It's a crazy, stupid system I agree, but at the end of the day, the airline will have to punish someone for what happened and quite frankly, besides the employee their is no one else to punish.

Why does anyone have to be punished? If the employee explained the rules to these people and they still do this, why should he be punished?

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 57):
Quoting mayor (Reply 55):And this is exactly why the employee shouldn't be fired because he wasn't involved.
He WAS involved. It was his pass(es) that were used. He is responsible for the people that he allows to use his benifits.

I've argued this for years, ever since the buddy pass program started at SA)">DL. If the pass user is familiar with the rules or has been instructed in the rules and they STILL break them, I don't feel like the employee should be punished, even though that's the way the system is set up. I've advocated for the system being changed.

Quoting billreid (Reply 58):
I had a tiff with a SA)">UA gate agent in the mid 90's regarding pass travel.
I worked for a Cargo airline and had a ID-50 PS ticked on SA)">UA. They closed the door just before I arrived from a connection a good 15 minutes before scheduled departure in SFO, they closed the door after all revenue passengers were on board I was told. I argued with the agent that "that is fine but do you find a $517 Pass ticket non-revenue?"
He called a supervisor and the supervisor agreed that I was positive space and a revenue passenger.
The aircraft left ten minutes late with 27 empty seats, and sat at the gate for 25 minutes with the door closed.
I had to wait over six hours for the next flight anyway.
So much for industry travel and revenue respect...
The point is that pass travel is not always revenue-neutral. Is a $300 pass not a source of revenue for the airline, and thereby should the passenger be treated any different than the passenger that only paid $178 for the same class of service?

Slippery situation, there, however, that would also mean that someone on a pass from another airline would get treated better than their own employee. That hardly seems fair. Even though revenue is taken in, I know when we sent our traffic stats in for each flight, ALL passes, whether they had a fee or not, were considered "non-rev". I'm sure the rules that the gate agents abide by, are the same way.

However, what the gate agent did to you in SFO was just wrong, especially with seats open. Sounds more like laziness on their part, as much as anything.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2013-04-14 12:05:42 and read 8898 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 59):
Why does anyone have to be punished? If the employee explained the rules to these people and they still do this, why should he be punished?

Because Court fees, Attorney Fees, the PR nightmare and everything else that is associated with this mess will not be swept under the rug. As I said before, if the passengers did not file a Discrimination lawsuit, this story would have stayed internal and that would have been the end of that. Because it went public and these non rev guys are making a big deal out of nothing, someone will have to pay the price.

Again, these were his buddy passes and he is ultimately responsible for the actions of his friends that use his non rev benefits!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 12:18:33 and read 8797 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 58):
Because Court fees, Attorney Fees, the PR nightmare and everything else that is associated with this mess will not be swept under the rug. As I said before, if the passengers did not file a Discrimination lawsuit, this story would have stayed internal and that would have been the end of that. Because it went public and these non rev guys are making a big deal out of nothing, someone will have to pay the price.

Again, these were his buddy passes and he is ultimately responsible for the actions of his friends that use his non rev benefits!

If the employee screwed up in this situation, then, yes......he should be punished, but I don't believe that they should pick out a scapegoat to punish, especially if all they did was give out the passes. Especially if he told them the rules.



That's why I think the system is wrong and I've always thought that way. If I failed to instruct them in the ins and outs of non-rev travel, yes......I should be punished. However, if I took the time to tell them what to do or not to do and they STILL failed to follow the rules, why should the employee be punished. Is there no personal responsibility in this for those using the passes? Are they not adults and should be responsible for their own actions? Even though I abide by the system, the way it is, you'll never convince me that it's the correct way to go.

Then, of course, you have the people.... employees, retirees and the pass riders, themselves, that screw around with them and ruin it for everyone else.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: cv880
Posted 2013-04-14 12:24:21 and read 8759 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 52):
But strictly because this went public and is now going to court and is costing US Airways legal and attorney fees and the bad press that the PR department will now have to deal with, this employee 100% should be and most likely, WILL be fired!

This, in itself, is why the Employee should be held accountable. US is going to spend 10's of thousands to make this go away. Is the Employee going to cough up the money to compensate the Company over this? If so, let him keep his job. How do we know that the Employee didn't "sell" the passes to these guys? Too many unanswered questions at this point, but the bottom line is that the incident and bad reporting by NBC is going to cost US some big bucks. Ditching the buddy pass system is probably a good idea as it's a pain to deal with when load factors are high, and the cost is not that great of a deal these days.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 12:31:55 and read 8711 times.

Quoting cv880 (Reply 60):
This, in itself, is why the Employee should be held accountable. US is going to spend 10's of thousands to make this go away. Is the Employee going to cough up the money to compensate the Company over this? If so, let him keep his job. How do we know that the Employee didn't "sell" the passes to these guys? Too many unanswered questions at this point, but the bottom line is that the incident and bad reporting by NBC is going to cost US some big bucks. Ditching the buddy pass system is probably a good idea as it's a pain to deal with when load factors are high, and the cost is not that great of a deal these days.

Well, my point is, that, if the employee did everything he should have in regards to these passes then he shouldn't be punished because he did all that and just gave the passes out. However, if he screwed up and either sold them or failed to tell these folks the rules, then he should be punished. It wasn't the fault of the employee that the media got ahold of this or that the pass riders decided to file suit, thereby bringing attention to it.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: cv880
Posted 2013-04-14 12:40:13 and read 8661 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 61):
Well, my point is, that, if the employee did everything he should have in regards to these passes then he shouldn't be punished because he did all that and just gave the passes out.

Well, You and I both know what would happen to us if it were DL.........no passes for life (as we're too old to get fired).
I can't believe that these idiots would not have consulted the employee first before filing the lawsuit and again more unanswered questions.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 12:48:20 and read 8604 times.

Quoting cv880 (Reply 62):
I can't believe that these idiots would not have consulted the employee first before filing the lawsuit and again more unanswered questions.

The more I read and think about it, I'm thinking that this employee either sold them the passes or it was done thru a third party. In that case nobody told anybody about the rules. Not sure about US system, but in our case, since it is all done thru DeltaNet and we have control over it, it shouldn't happen to us.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2013-04-14 13:08:46 and read 8493 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 63):
Not sure about US system, but in our case, since it is all done thru DeltaNet and we have control over it, it shouldn't happen to us.

US is the same; its all done electronically via US Wings and the employee has to process it.

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 38):
However, what these guys are saying is-essentially-that whatever the policy may be-it is not a cultural norm for them to dress in the manner the rules state, and as such, unless everyone (meaning all the passengers) is made to dress in exactly the same manner, it amounts to a form of discrimination.... buddy pass or no buddy pass. I hate to tell you... but they have an arguable case. It is not a strong case. But they do have an argument. They'll probably lose (or US will settle). But if it actually sees a courtroom... this is not a 100% slam dunk against the plaintiffs.

That is really stretching it. The fact that they had appropriate clothes to change into shed doubts upon the "cultural norms" argument. Plus, having been to many African American funerals, I guarantee that they did not show up at the church dressed like that.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: billreid
Posted 2013-04-14 13:44:09 and read 8265 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 57):
However, what the gate agent did to you in SFO was just wrong, especially with seats open. Sounds more like laziness on their part, as much as anything.

He claimed they were working on ontime performance and closing the door 15 minutes before dept was a new rule. I would guess as soon as three 1K's bitched that was over.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-04-14 14:00:10 and read 8194 times.

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 48):
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 48):Buddy Passes and non-rev travel is a privilege, not a right and if you or your buddy cause a scene or misuse the system, you should be terminated. This lawsuit is ridiculous and should be thrown out right away, and these individuals should be barred from ever flying US Airways! And just for the negative press alone, the employee should be FIRED!

I don't agree. Terminate the persons staff travel, of course, but to fire him....No way....

As someone who is part of the management team for an airline - and has overseen several investigations of employee pass travel abuses - I'd support termination in this instance.

The carrier makes their rules regarding the pass travel benefits very clear; either the employee didn't take them seriously, or their "buddies" using their passes didn't and their choice of who to give these passes to was a poor one. Either way, this represents a big lapse in judgment on the employee's part, and just about every airline has a rule of conduct that stipulates the need to conduct yourself in ways that don't reflect negatively on your employer, or refrain from engaging in actions that reflect negatively on their employer.

Yes, there are times where suspension of travel privileges is a good "first step" however based on the scope and severity of this pass policy violation, the employee should be discharged.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-04-14 15:20:15 and read 8063 times.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 32):
Quoting Schweigend (Reply 32):

Quoting mayor (Reply 26):
I guess the only solution would be to make sure that you only gave them out to people that you trusted, unflinchingly. Otherwise, they might as well be toilet paper.

I would not mind at all if we went back to Buddy travel being employee-accompanied only, as it was originally. I thought the system was meant to benefit the employee who wanted to travel with friends...not to allow friends to get cheap seats and travel alone.

Agreed. The behavior / dress of clueless buddy pass pass riders has been the bane of many a gate agent for a long time.

On dress codes in general, they have been greatly relaxed over the years for F and Y. No longer is Sunday Best required, just basic decency / courtesy. Given the negative publicity and legal costs this has caused US Airways, I would hate to be the employee.

The truly unbelievable part of this story is that there were seats in F/C for those at bottom of the SB list. These days it's rare for 25 year employees to clear in F/C!

[Edited 2013-04-14 15:31:12]

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 15:29:21 and read 8062 times.

Quoting billreid (Reply 65):
He claimed they were working on ontime performance and closing the door 15 minutes before dept was a new rule.

I guess that might be a good excuse until you see that the a/c was still sitting there. At DL, on time meant that the plane had to push.......I guess UA has a new definition.  
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 66):

Glad I wasn't working for you. If the employee actually did something wrong, I could see it, but we really don't know, do we?
Maybe the employee thought he was using good judgment and thought everything was ok and he still gets screwed, first by his "buddies" and then by managment. I can't see firing him for something like this.

However, if we were to find out that he just gave them out, with no thought of what might happen or if he sold them thru a third party, then, yes......fire him.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: KBJCpilot
Posted 2013-04-14 16:13:15 and read 7995 times.

I have traveled on UA, F9, and WN with buddy passes in the past 24 months and every time my employee friends makes it clear that I am to dress, act, and represent myself as if I were an employee of the airline. I am not to wear certain clothes, shoes, or anything that is not at least business casual. When I have been in First Class I am excessively polite to the staff and do not ask for extra help or attention. It is a privilige to use the passes when I need to get somewhere quickly without having to pay the expensive last minute fares.

I try to dress in dress slacks, dress shirt, or golf shirt. I wear nice shoes. I don't wear a t-shirt or jean shorts. I use please and thank you from TSA to the time I leave the aircraft.

I do not want to draw attention to myself or do anything to place my friends in a situation where I have affected their buddy pass priviliges. It's the right thing to do.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2013-04-14 17:37:12 and read 7880 times.

My sister in law made the mistake of giving my father in law passes on AS to use for a fishing weekend in I think Sitka. After the scene he apparently made at the airport on his return due to being bumped, I'm surprised she didn't lose her pass privileges. I know that she was/is very clear about expectations, but he's not one to let that stop him from ranting.

It was a long time before she'd reven talk to him, and he will never get that privilege again. It is proof, though that AS isn't out to unfairly punish someone for their passes being misused. You can't expect every situation to go perfectly because we're all human. However, were the situation as described in the initial post accurate, I'd want to see some repercussions for the employee. Otherwise, what's the point of having rules ang guidelines?

-Dave

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-04-14 19:23:19 and read 7661 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 68):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 66):
Glad I wasn't working for you.

Thanks for trying to make this about me.   

Quoting mayor (Reply 68):
Maybe the employee thought he was using good judgment and thought everything was ok and he still gets screwed, first by his "buddies" and then by managment. I can't see firing him for something like this.

However, if we were to find out that he just gave them out, with no thought of what might happen or if he sold them thru a third party, then, yes......fire him.

It doesn't matter. Again, if the employee thought they were using good judgment or not is irrelevant here; the fact is that their judgment, rightly or wrongly, led them to give passes to someone who, it turns out, should absolutely NOT have been using them based on their decision to not follow the pass policy, and then escalated things and made a public spectacle over the policy.

It's made crystal clear to each employee that when you give your passes to someone, their behavior directly reflects back on you and any violations by your guest can result in disciplinary action up to and including termination of employment, so you're taking a risk each time you give one to someone. I'd be stunned if the employee retained their job after this.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 19:48:14 and read 7635 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 71):
It's made crystal clear to each employee that when you give your passes to someone, their behavior directly reflects back on you and any violations by your guest can result in disciplinary action up to and including termination of employment, so you're taking a risk each time you give one to someone. I'd be stunned if the employee retained their job after this.

Oh, I KNOW all that. I worked for DL for 33+ years. Maybe it was a difference in culture, but in my experience, DL wouldn't have treated in such a black & white, way. They'd have looked at the situation and given their judgment after that and if the employee did whatever they could and the pass riders still screwed it up, the punishment would more than likely been lighter than the lynching some of you have in mind.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 71):
It doesn't matter. Again, if the employee thought they were using good judgment or not is irrelevant here; the fact is that their judgment, rightly or wrongly, led them to give passes to someone who, it turns out, should absolutely NOT have been using them based on their decision to not follow the pass policy, and then escalated things and made a public spectacle over the policy.

Next time, maybe this employee will call YOU first before they make any judgments and you can be the one to decide. Sheesh!!

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 71):
Quoting mayor (Reply 68):Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 66):
Glad I wasn't working for you.
Thanks for trying to make this about me.

You're the one that stated what you would do in this case, not me.




Let me ask you this.....at your airline do you punish employees if they make what they think is a good judgment but things don't work out right?

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: maxamuus
Posted 2013-04-14 19:50:22 and read 7585 times.

Pass privileges are just that, a privilege. While the employee did nothing directly wrong, when you extend those privileges to others you are totally responsible for them and their actions.

This is why in my almost 20 years at my airline I can count on one hand how many I have give out, and those were to immediate family members usually in the case of a death somewhere. I gave them a strong talking too about them. You will dress as if your going to church, you will be as quiet as a church mouse, and you will address every airline employee as if they were the virgin Mary herself.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 20:18:19 and read 7511 times.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 73):
I gave them a strong talking too about them. You will dress as if your going to church, you will be as quiet as a church mouse, and you will address every airline employee as if they were the virgin Mary herself.

And after all that, if they had still screwed up, how would you have felt if you got fired because of it?

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: maxamuus
Posted 2013-04-14 21:00:41 and read 7448 times.

They wouldn't have screwed up, or I wouldn't have given them the passes in the first place.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-14 21:05:35 and read 7457 times.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 75):
They wouldn't have screwed up, or I wouldn't have given them the passes in the first place.

Wow, that's amazing. You KNOW what they're gonna do before they do......want to get a couple of lottery tickets for me?  

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: maxamuus
Posted 2013-04-14 21:19:07 and read 7465 times.

Its actually quite simple. Like I said I didn't give them to acquaintances or my sister's boyfriends cousin etc. The passes I gave away were to my grandparents, my brother, my uncle and a cousin. I use extreme caution in who I give them too, because I know that their actions reflect on me, my pass privileges, and my job.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2013-04-15 00:07:00 and read 7315 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 42):
I'd say it all depends on whether or not the employee that gave these passes out, told the recipients of the dress code ahead of time.

In my opinion, the consequences for the airline employee should be exactly the same as if he was one of the individuals who started that lawsuit, whatever they may be. When you hand out a benefit from your employer to someone else, I believe that you are responsible for how it is being used, whether it is the airline industry or any other industry. That is the risk you take when you allow someone else to use some of your benefits/perks.

Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 69):
I do not want to draw attention to myself

And yet you dress up, smile and behave politely?!? If you really don't want to attract attention, wear jeans and a tshirt, and make flight attendants repeat everything they tell you at least once. Then you'll blend in...
  

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: airportugal310
Posted 2013-04-15 00:44:29 and read 7289 times.

HA's dress policy for all cabins is very simple: dress like our guests

I travel in first a lot too...plenty of rev pax dress island-like. Nothing wrong with that!

Just don't wear a bathing suit (which is specifically singled out)

Your going to Hawai'i, after all  

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: barney captain
Posted 2013-04-15 00:54:01 and read 7287 times.

Upgraded to First on a buddy pass - and yet these two still feel discriminated against. The mindset of entitlement truly has no bounds.

[Edited 2013-04-15 00:56:10]

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2013-04-15 05:56:33 and read 7056 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 72):
Oh, I KNOW all that. I worked for DL for 33+ years. Maybe it was a difference in culture, but in my experience, DL wouldn't have treated in such a black & white, way. They'd have looked at the situation and given their judgment after that and if the employee did whatever they could and the pass riders still screwed it up, the punishment would more than likely been lighter than the lynching some of you have in mind.

I call BS on this statement! Not to sound racist, but my guess is these guys walked on with tattered jeans, ridding so low on their waist that every time they turned around they would moon you. I have flown non rev numerous times on Delta, and no way are the standards as low as you claim they are. From a uniform perspective, the Delta crews have some of the most rigorous uniform policies and you claim any clown can non rev with them??

And I seriously think you are missing the bigger picture here. This isn't just some dispute between a gate agent and a buddy pass rider, this is a law suite filed by these pass riders. I would put money on the fact, if your buddy pass riders were kicked off a flight for inappropriate attire and then filed a lawsuit for discrimination, you would be in a lot more trouble then just your pass benefits, even if you had been at Delta for 50 years!

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 70):
My sister in law made the mistake of giving my father in law passes on AS to use for a fishing weekend in I think Sitka. After the scene he apparently made at the airport on his return due to being bumped, I'm surprised she didn't lose her pass privileges. I know that she was/is very clear about expectations, but he's not one to let that stop him from ranting.

But again, this is an internal thing and not some public, drawn out lawsuit like this case.

I still claim this employee should and likely will get fired!!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-15 08:11:26 and read 6900 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 81):
I have flown non rev numerous times on Delta, and no way are the standards as low as you claim they are. From a uniform perspective, the Delta crews have some of the most rigorous uniform policies and you claim any clown can non rev with them??

I'm not "claiming" anything.......here is the dress code, in its entirety:


Dress Code
You and your pass riders represent Delta when using your pass travel privileges. Looking good means being well-groomed, neat, and clean. Here are a few things to remember:

1.Look down – Bare feet are not acceptable; shoes are required unless prohibited due to a disability or physical condition.
2.Keep it clean – Your clothes, hair, and overall appearance should be clean. Avoid dirty, stained, or excessively torn clothing.
3.Keep it clean, part 2 – Avoid clothing that is vulgar, offensive or suggestive. This includes clothing that is sheer or inappropriately revealing.
4.Bikinis and trunks are for the pool and beach – Swimwear, underwear and pajamas have their place – but it isn't on a plane.


Simple, eh? Virtually NO dress code except for these 4 exceptions.



BTW, I think you mistake what I was saying.........I was referring to how EA CO AS airline would have handled it compared to how I think DL would have handled it. I was NOT referring to the culture of these two pass riders but to the culture at DL.


Anyway, I KNOW how the system is set up, now, that the employee or retiree is responsible for the pass rider's actions. I get all that and I abide by it. That doesn't mean that I agree with the way the system is set up and I haven't, from the day that DL started the buddy pass program. That's probably the reason that, in 20+ years of the buddy pass program, I've probably only given out, maybe, a dozen of them.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-04-15 09:06:28 and read 6777 times.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 6):
They aren't. In fact, a lot of times you can buy a confirmed ticket for less.

Why does everyone keep saying this? The cheapest weekend Fri-Sun fares right now for ORD-LGA-ORD are $348. At my airline the buddy pass is ~$55 each way, or roughly 1/3 of the price...I'd say that's a screaming deal if you're okay with the uncertainty. That said, I do not let buddies travel unaccompanied unless they've made trips with me before and understand the risks and requirements.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: maxamuus
Posted 2013-04-15 09:37:18 and read 6705 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 83):
Why does everyone keep saying this?

Just checked WN website and with 3 weeks advance MDW-LGA-MDW is 147.00. So why would anyone want to endure the headaches of nonreving to save 30 bucks (probably less as I bet the 55 dollars doesn't include tax)

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-04-15 10:08:35 and read 6639 times.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 84):
Just checked WN website and with 3 weeks advance MDW-LGA-MDW is 147.00. So why would anyone want to endure the headaches of nonreving to save 30 bucks (probably less as I bet the 55 dollars doesn't include tax)

That is so misleading. You chose a 6am out of LGA on Sunday and the latest into LGA on friday. If you look at the more optimal times it's $303 leaving at 515 (so you get there with any useful time in the night) and come back even just at 950am on sunday which is the enxt cheapest flight.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-15 10:23:24 and read 6608 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 85):
That is so misleading. You chose a 6am out of LGA on Sunday and the latest into LGA on friday. If you look at the more optimal times it's $303 leaving at 515 (so you get there with any useful time in the night) and come back even just at 950am on sunday which is the enxt cheapest flight.

Using the time frame you mentioned, a buddy pass on DL LGA-ORD-LGA (no MDW service) is $161.80 round trip, with taxes.......more than the WN fare mentioned LGA-MDW-LGA.

[Edited 2013-04-15 10:24:45]

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: maxamuus
Posted 2013-04-15 10:28:52 and read 6574 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 85):

That is so misleading. You chose a 6am out of LGA on Sunday and the latest into LGA on friday. If you look at the more optimal times it's $303 leaving at 515 (so you get there with any useful time in the night) and come back even just at 950am on sunday which is the enxt cheapest flight.

The funny part is, on these optimal times you want you likely wouldn't be able to get on as a buddy pass anyway. Heck even a employee is lucky to get on the optimal times these days.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: RDH3E
Posted 2013-04-15 11:06:51 and read 6502 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 86):
Using the time frame you mentioned, a buddy pass on DL LGA-ORD-LGA (no MDW service) is $161.80 round trip, with taxes.......more than the WN fare mentioned LGA-MDW-LGA.

Because it's DL and requires a connection. What about ATL-LGA-ATL?

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 87):
The funny part is, on these optimal times you want you likely wouldn't be able to get on as a buddy pass anyway. Heck even a employee is lucky to get on the optimal times these days.

People here do it every week. UA has hourly service ORD-LGA, it's really not an issue.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: art
Posted 2013-04-15 11:19:45 and read 6456 times.

Disingenuous of these two to drop their (ex-?) buddy in the s**t after he/she had done them a favour. I'm talking about them choosing to turn this into a legal case.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-04-15 11:56:50 and read 6408 times.

Wow... a lawsuit over buddy passes. At a minimum, the dress code will become *far* more strict.

It isn't as if pass travel dress code is an unknown and the current code is *far* more lenient than it used to be. Employees and buddy passes are supposed to bring up the level of attire in the cabin.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 66):
The carrier makes their rules regarding the pass travel benefits very clear; either the employee didn't take them seriously, or their "buddies" using their passes didn't and their choice of who to give these passes to was a poor one.

   Someone made a big mistake and that is the employee. They didn't make sure their "buddies" took the rules seriously.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 78):
In my opinion, the consequences for the airline employee should be exactly the same as if he was one of the individuals who started that lawsuit, whatever they may be. When you hand out a benefit from your employer to someone else, I believe that you are responsible for how it is being used, whether it is the airline industry or any other industry. That is the risk you take when you allow someone else to use some of your benefits/perks.

That is the rules. At a minimum, a long buddy pass suspension. I would also recommend an employee suspension. If a repeat offense (or a trouble employee), then termination.

Its not as if buddy passes require suits anymore...

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: EASTERN747
Posted 2013-04-15 12:50:38 and read 6311 times.

When I started to get passes on SW, as a retiree, on the first trip I was going on I called them and asked for the dress code. The agent started to laugh. I asked why are you laughing. She said they expect you to be civil, but there were really no restrictions. So I asked what if I showed up in a wife beater shirt, cut off and flip flops. I was told, so I guess you are going to LA.....lolololol. But really shorts are ok, especially the summer and destinations, and I guess flip flops. My feeling are flip flops are for the beach, so go ahead and flame me. When I was an active employee and traveled the rule was shirt and tie...and yes it was what it was. But so what,,,F/C was $12 and Y/c was $6. But I certainly looked stupid in FLL in a shirt and tie. My parents were always dressed properly....My grandmother flew to FLL one year for Christmas....50% POS space F/C. When Nana got off the flight she looked like a million bucks..(first flight). The F/As were so impressed they came with her inside the gate!!!!!!!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: art
Posted 2013-04-15 13:27:24 and read 6252 times.

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 91):
wife beater shirt, cut off

Not being American, what is a wife beater shirt, please? And a cut off - leather jacket with no arms?

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: alfa164
Posted 2013-04-15 13:40:46 and read 6225 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 88):
Quoting mayor (Reply 86):Using the time frame you mentioned, a buddy pass on DL LGA-ORD-LGA (no MDW service) is $161.80 round trip, with taxes.......more than the WN fare mentioned LGA-MDW-LGA.

Because it's DL and requires a connection. What about ATL-LGA-ATL?




Really? DL offeres non-stop Shutle flights from LGA to ORD... no stops in Atlanta.

Maybe UA hasn't noticed they have competition... that could explain why UA suffers while DL is on the rise....

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: barney captain
Posted 2013-04-15 14:16:38 and read 6158 times.

Not that long ago, the ONLY way you were getting on as a non-rev (coach or otherwise) was to be in a suit and tie. It was always easy to tell how many non-rev's were waiting in the gate area.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-04-15 15:07:38 and read 6083 times.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 83):
Why does everyone keep saying this? The cheapest weekend Fri-Sun fares right now for ORD-LGA-ORD are $348. At my airline the buddy pass is ~$55 each way, or roughly 1/3 of the price...I'd say that's a screaming deal if you're okay with the uncertainty.

I've seen full fare tickets on other airlines cheaper than guest passes on my airline a number of times.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2013-04-15 15:25:23 and read 6080 times.

What I don't understand is why hardly anyone is questioning non-rev dress codes to begin with. The very idea that a group of people is expected to "dress nicely" in order to "dress up" the cabin implies that that group might not normally look as "nice" as the passengers they are traveling with. That is the very definition of classism, whereby one class of people (airline employees) is being asked to change their behavior to make another group (revenue passengers) feel as though they are important and have status. And why should anyone feel they need to change the way they normally dress in order to make others feel good about themselves? If First Class passengers are really so shallow and insecure that they actually care about how others are dressed, they have more problems than a commercial air carrier can solve. The idea of denying someone a seat on an aircraft because of the kind of clothes they wear is incredibly crass. It's basically telling those people they aren't good enough to fly with the others because of their clothes. If those clothes define those people as belonging to a specific socioeconomic group or race and an airline is saying those clothes aren't acceptable, that is discrimination.

Quoting art (Reply 92):
Not being American, what is a wife beater shirt, please? And a cut off - leather jacket with no arms?

A "wife-beater" is a euphemism for a white, ribbed tank top, which is a t-shirt with the shoulders and sleeves cut out. It also has a low neckline. The reason it is called a "wife-beater" is because domestic violence is often associated with unemployed, blue-collar men who sit around all day in one of those shirts drinking beer and yelling at their wives. Such labeling is potentially classist, just like non-rev dress code restrictions.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: maxamuus
Posted 2013-04-15 16:17:18 and read 5980 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 96):
What I don't understand is why hardly anyone is questioning non-rev dress codes to begin with. The very idea that a group of people is expected to "dress nicely" in order to "dress up" the cabin implies that that group might not normally look as "nice" as the passengers they are traveling with. That is the very definition of classism, whereby one class of people (airline employees) is being asked to change their behavior to make another group (revenue passengers) feel as though they are important and have status. And why should anyone feel they need to change the way they normally dress in order to make others feel good about themselves? If First Class passengers are really so shallow and insecure that they actually care about how others are dressed, they have more problems than a commercial air carrier can solve. The idea of denying someone a seat on an aircraft because of the kind of clothes they wear is incredibly crass. It's basically telling those people they aren't good enough to fly with the others because of their clothes. If those clothes define those people as belonging to a specific socioeconomic group or race and an airline is saying those clothes aren't acceptable, that is discrimination.

If you don't like the policy there is a simple way around it. Buy the seat! Then you can show up in your droopy pants around your %$#, your hat cocked sideways and some basketball jersey big enough to fit three people.

You, like them and their ambulance chasing lawyer is trying to make this into some socioeconomic racial thing, when its nothing of the sort.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2013-04-15 16:53:39 and read 5917 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 96):

I am at a loss at why the non-rev dress code is a problem? If a company is basically letting you use their service for chump change, is it too much to ask you to dress appropriately? Just because many people think swim trunks are proper attire doesn't mean that it IS proper attire, ESPECIALLY when seated with people who have either ponied up the big bucks or earned the upgrade in most cases.

It's called respect.

-Dave

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-15 17:14:28 and read 5880 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 96):
If First Class passengers are really so shallow and insecure that they actually care about how others are dressed, they have more problems than a commercial air carrier can solve. The idea of denying someone a seat on an aircraft because of the kind of clothes they wear is incredibly crass.

Well, the dress code, such as it is, also applies to flying in coach class. How you dress doesn't affect whether you fly in first or economy.........whether a seat is open and seniority date (at least with DL) affects where you get to sit....that and your pass priority. Apparently, these guys didn't even meet the minimum dress code requirements for flying as a pass rider on US. Thousands of airline employees fly every year, abiding by whatever dress code their airline imposes. It's not crass.....it's the price you pay to fly free (or at a reduced rate).

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: alfa164
Posted 2013-04-15 19:03:33 and read 5780 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 99):
Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 96):
Reply 96, posted s_lt(1366064723, 'l F j Y H:i:s');Mon Apr 15 2013 17:25:23 your local timeMon Apr 15 2013 15:25:23 UTC (3 hours 27 minutes 37 secs ago) and read 302 times:

What I don't understand is why hardly anyone is questioning non-rev dress codes to begin with. The very idea that a group of people is expected to "dress nicely" in order to "dress up" the cabin implies that that group might not normally look as "nice" as the passengers they are traveling with. That is the very definition of classism, whereby one class of people (airline employees) is being asked to change their behavior to make another group (revenue passengers) feel as though they are important and have status. And why should anyone feel they need to change the way they normally dress in order to make others feel good about themselves? If First Class passengers are really so shallow and insecure that they actually care about how others are dressed, they have more problems than a commercial air carrier can solve. The idea of denying someone a seat on an aircraft because of the kind of clothes they wear is incredibly crass. It's basically telling those people they aren't good enough to fly with the others because of their clothes. If those clothes define those people as belonging to a specific socioeconomic group or race and an airline is saying those clothes aren't acceptable, that is discrimination.

You've got to be kidding! Just like (almost) every company has some sort of "dress code" for work, they certainly may have a dress code when their employees - and, by extension, their employees' friends and family - are enjoying the benefits their job gives them. While the days of "coat-and-tie required" are gone, it is still reasonable to expect decency when travelling. Employees (and again, by estension, their friends and family) are representing the airline when they travel, even if their role is never known by the other passengers.

Heck, even some shopping centers have dress codes now - and some airlines (WN immediately comes to mind) have denide boarding to revenue passengers based on their clothing. It isn't a case of first-class passengers being "shallow and insecure"; it is a case of employees, friends, and family accepting that being decently dressed is a simple requirement to take advantage of these travel benefits.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2013-04-15 19:55:11 and read 5666 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 98):
If a company is basically letting you use their service for chump change, is it too much to ask you to dress appropriately?

Airlines benefit immensely from employee travel programs by substituting leftover seats for a certain amount of salary, thereby saving themselves money in terms of overall employee compensation. If they did not offer those perks, they would never have as many people applying to work for them. As a result, travel benefits are part of an airline employee's compensation and are dependent upon their employment. Employees should therefore feel free to dress however they wish within certain societal norms (no bare chests or feet, etc.) when using flight privileges, as they are using their earned benefits on private time.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 100):
Employees (and again, by estension, their friends and family) are representing the airline when they travel, even if their role is never known by the other passengers.

Yes, but you're not addressing the point I was making, which is that the rationale behind non-rev dress codes is classist. Dressing up to maintain a sense of "decorum" plays to standards applied to one group of people while another is exempt purely because of their roles within the capitalist system (seller vs. buyer, with cash as king). "Representing the airline" means attempting to look as though one is not poor or does not have poor taste although many employees are in fact poor; this demonizing of poverty is inherently classist.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-15 20:19:01 and read 5701 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 101):
Airlines benefit immensely from employee travel programs by substituting leftover seats for a certain amount of salary, thereby saving themselves money in terms of overall employee compensation.

Untrue.........I consistently made the #1 or #2 salary rate for ramp/cargo in the airline industry while at DL and still had, IIRC, the best travel benefits in the industry.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 101):
Yes, but you're not addressing the point I was making, which is that the rationale behind non-rev dress codes is classist

The point is that most airlines don't HAVE a strict dress code, any more.......it's minimum, at best. Here's DL's current dress code:


Dress Code
You and your pass riders represent Delta when using your pass travel privileges. Looking good means being well-groomed, neat, and clean. Here are a few things to remember:

1.Look down – Bare feet are not acceptable; shoes are required unless prohibited due to a disability or physical condition.
2.Keep it clean – Your clothes, hair, and overall appearance should be clean. Avoid dirty, stained, or excessively torn clothing.
3.Keep it clean, part 2 – Avoid clothing that is vulgar, offensive or suggestive. This includes clothing that is sheer or inappropriately revealing.
4.Bikinis and trunks are for the pool and beach – Swimwear, underwear and pajamas have their place – but it isn't on a plane.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 88):
Quoting mayor (Reply 86):Using the time frame you mentioned, a buddy pass on DL LGA-ORD-LGA (no MDW service) is $161.80 round trip, with taxes.......more than the WN fare mentioned LGA-MDW-LGA.

Because it's DL and requires a connection. What about ATL-LGA-ATL?

Nope....no connecting flight called for LGA-ORD-LGA.....nonstop.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 101):
Employees should therefore feel free to dress however they wish within certain societal norms (no bare chests or feet, etc.) when using flight privileges, as they are using their earned benefits on private time.

Feel free and see how long you last with the company after breaking company rules. When you sign on, you're telling the company that you will maintain and abide by certain policies as it is with ANY company.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 101):
Yes, but you're not addressing the point I was making, which is that the rationale behind non-rev dress codes is classist. Dressing up to maintain a sense of "decorum" plays to standards applied to one group of people while another is exempt purely because of their roles within the capitalist system (seller vs. buyer, with cash as king). "Representing the airline" means attempting to look as though one is not poor or does not have poor taste although many employees are in fact poor; this demonizing of poverty is inherently classist.

The airline has virtually no control over how the pax dress (within reason), but they do have a semblance of control over how the employees dress, whether it's when on a pass or when working. Besides, if you're so poor that you are unable to dress nicely and neatly, maybe you shouldn't be travelling, anyway.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: KBJCpilot
Posted 2013-04-15 20:28:44 and read 5670 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 101):
Yes, but you're not addressing the point I was making, which is that the rationale behind non-rev dress codes is classist. Dressing up to maintain a sense of "decorum" plays to standards applied to one group of people while another is exempt purely because of their roles within the capitalist system (seller vs. buyer, with cash as king). "Representing the airline" means attempting to look as though one is not poor or does not have poor taste although many employees are in fact poor; this demonizing of poverty is inherently classist.

Give me a break. I am not rich by any means and have only flown first class when I was provided a buddy pass from a friend. But I know better than to bring attention to my friends who have provided their passes for me to fly. Demonizing of poverty is not why airlines ask that their pass holders dress nicely and for you to suggest so says volumes.

Again, I will reiterate it for those who don't understand. Flying on a buddy pass is a privilige. It is not a right or expectation. If you cannot abide by simple rules governing how you are to dress, behave, and respect the cabin crew then pay full price for a ticket and behave and look the way you want. When I receive comp'd seats to a sporting event such as an NBA game I dress a little nicer in an effort to show that I appreciate the gift. When I am given a buddy pass to fly I do the same.

When did looking and behaving like a cultured adult go out the window?

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: blueflyer
Posted 2013-04-15 22:00:42 and read 5576 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 101):
Employees should therefore feel free to dress however they wish within certain societal norms (no bare chests or feet, etc.)

The dress code is an airline's way to ensure its employees dress within your certain societal norms, if for no other reason than "societal norms" is far too vague in legal terms, subject to multiple interpretations with different outcome from employee to employee, or even city to city. You cannot easily fire an employee for not complying with societal norms, since it lacks a single, undisputed meaning, but you can fire one for ignoring the dress code, because it does not.

What you are arguing is that certain airlines aren't adapting their societal norms to the current world fast enough...

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: JoePatroni707
Posted 2013-04-16 01:56:50 and read 5441 times.

This is the silliest thing I have ever heard. I cannot believe an attorney is even taking this case. I hope these two guys spend thousands of dollars on attorney fees to be finally left broke and empty handed. Whats real sad is that if the case does not get thrown out, US will probably settle out of court

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-04-16 02:55:40 and read 5404 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 101):
travel benefits are part of an airline employee's compensation and are dependent upon their employment. Employees should therefore feel free to dress however they wish within certain societal norms (no bare chests or feet, etc.) when using flight privileges, as they are using their earned benefits on private time.

Keep telling yourself this; maybe someday it'll be true. And see how long you last at any airline with that "I can dress however I want when flying as a non-rev" attitude.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-04-16 03:08:40 and read 5420 times.

Let me explain 4 things about traveling first class.

1) I have flown first class many times, 99% of the time I was upgraded. Once I was rebooked in first class when my flight from NRT-SEA was delayed due to winds. I have paid for these flights. I never have taken discounts, or any sort of "incentive." I never fly on buddy passes or on non-rev. I PAY to fly and as a loyal DL customer, they graciously bump me up to first class.

2) IN FIRST CLASS, or rather, in ANY class of an airplane, you are expected to fly with courtesy and politeness. Being rude, loud, or obstructive only makes you look like a total dipsh** and also hurts the experience of those around you, who have no time for your crap (if you;re acting rude.)

3) FLYING FIRST CLASS...or flying in general...IS A PRIVILEGE, NEVER A RIGHT. ESPECIALLY!!!!!! Flying on a buddy pass. A buddy pass is simply a benefit privilege given to you by your employer. GIVEN. Not purchased! Be gracious, presentable, and a good employee or guest to your employer.

4) These men 1) did not buy a ticket 2) did not act in a presentable way 3) are making the flying experience for everyone who wants to fly US Airways right now a total pain, because in turn the NAACP lawyers representing them, and NBC's bile-spewing news thinks this will rake in cash.

Pathetic.

I wish American society can be more like Japan   

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-04-16 08:01:50 and read 5226 times.

I hope US does not settle. These idiots don't deserve a penny. I hope they get stuck with US attorney bills as well as getting nada. The entitlement that some folks seem to have is astounding....

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-16 08:47:17 and read 5190 times.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 105):
This is the silliest thing I have ever heard. I cannot believe an attorney is even taking this case. I hope these two guys spend thousands of dollars on attorney fees to be finally left broke and empty handed. Whats real sad is that if the case does not get thrown out, US will probably settle out of court
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 107):
4) These men 1) did not buy a ticket 2) did not act in a presentable way 3) are making the flying experience for everyone who wants to fly US Airways right now a total pain, because in turn the NAACP lawyers representing them, and NBC's bile-spewing news thinks this will rake in cash.
Quoting toobz (Reply 108):
I hope US does not settle. These idiots don't deserve a penny. I hope they get stuck with US attorney bills as well as getting nada. The entitlement that some folks seem to have is astounding....

Finally, some blame goes to the actual perpetrators of this whole stupid thing.  

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: jagflyer
Posted 2013-04-16 08:56:51 and read 5180 times.

Quoting art (Reply 92):

A wifebeater shirt is basically a white undershirt which is (outside of the US) worn normally only as an undergarment when wearing a collared shirt. It is sleeveless. It's a very trashy looking thing that to me is akin to wearing underwear with nothing over it. The name comes from the stereotypical image of a wife abusing husband who wears one with nothing on top of it (very trashy looking person).

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: flyingthe757
Posted 2013-04-16 09:03:27 and read 5158 times.

Any more news on this case?

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: skywaymanaz
Posted 2013-04-17 00:02:45 and read 4964 times.

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 111):
Any more news on this case?

I was pleased to see USA Today of all outlets seems to have gotten this story correct. Their headline was "Discrimination or Rule Breaking?" Article seemed to make it clear dress code is standard throughout the industry on pass travel. Somehow I have a feeling we've probably seen the last of this case in the news.

Sadly I can believe that if it happened say last Friday it could have gone viral by Monday and that might be more understandable. Unfortunately with this happening in August last year it makes me think these two guys know they got their friend in trouble, what the rules are and how foolish they must really look. They're still sticking by their perceived injustice anyway. Unfortunately US probably will settle because it comes down to 4 or 5 figures to do so, 5 to 6 to fight and 6 to 7 if they lose. I'm sure this attorney has been trying to find pass riders that were wearing a hoodie in First. May not be common but I'd bet it has happened a few times for whatever reason even though it shouldn't have.

The one thing I'm really curious about is whether or not they were put in First to begin with because those were the last two seats or if the gate agent was just trying to be nice to them. They were returning from a funeral so I could believe the gate agent was trying to extend a courtesy at a bad time for them. A friend of mine pass riding on HP years ago got bumped to First because his mother he was going to see was dying.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2013-04-17 01:57:41 and read 4880 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 23):
Why would anyone be at an airline if not for the flight benefits. Certainly not for the pay.

Perhaps for the joy of working there?

Stop laughing!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: 4engines4lnghll
Posted 2013-04-17 02:18:11 and read 4875 times.

When you fly using buddy passes or whatever your airline may call them, you must fallow the rules accordingly. It annoys me when people try to use their race for an excuse for many things and in this circumstance having to wear the proper clothing for first class. Whom ever they received the buddy passes from its that persons fault for not telling them they had to wear slacks, nice shoes, and button down shirt. I'm sure those two pax they pointed out were not using buddy passes and im sure the media was not going to mention that.When you pay FULL fare for a ticket the airline doesn't care what you look like, its just another stupid reason for a "lawsuit". I've flown standby on AA many times while using a friends passes and if your sitting in coach you must wear jeans and if you want to fly first you must have the slacks, button shirt, etc. Their humiliating themselves and should know the rules before they fly. I love the part when they said they dont want any money from the lawsuit    yeah right....

[Edited 2013-04-17 02:18:58]

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-04-17 02:30:22 and read 4868 times.

Quoting cv880 (Reply 62):
Well, You and I both know what would happen to us if it were DL.........no passes for life (as we're too old to get fired).

I don't think it would be nearly as cut and dry as you make it.

Quoting mayor (Reply 63):
I'm thinking that this employee either sold them the passes or it was done thru a third part

in which case, at DL your gone.

Quoting mayor (Reply 68):
Glad I wasn't working for you. If the employee actually did something wrong, I could see it, but we really don't know, do we?

agreed. Way to much guessing here.

Quoting mayor (Reply 68):
Maybe the employee thought he was using good judgment and thought everything was ok and he still gets screwed, first by his "buddies" and then by managment. I can't see firing him for something like this.

same here. I believe Delta would sit the employee down and get the story then make a judgement.

Quoting mayor (Reply 72):
Maybe it was a difference in culture, but in my experience, DL wouldn't have treated in such a black & white, way

agreed. (as long as the pass wasn't sold, in which case is one of the few things that will get your ass fired very quickly at Delta)

Quoting mayor (Reply 72):
They'd have looked at the situation and given their judgment after that and if the employee did whatever they could and the pass riders still screwed it up, the punishment would more than likely been lighter than the lynching some of you have in mind.

agreed. If the person did all they could and the pass rider still filed the law suit....what is the employee to do? put a gun to thier head?

Quoting mayor (Reply 72):

Next time, maybe this employee will call YOU first before they make any judgments and you can be the one to decide. Sheesh!!

this

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 75):
They wouldn't have screwed up, or I wouldn't have given them the passes in the first place.

whoa. So every single person you give passes to is perfect?

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 79):
I travel in first a lot too...plenty of rev pax dress island-like. Nothing wrong with that!

and nothing about this is against Delta's dress code.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 81):
I call BS on this statement! Not to sound racist, but my guess is these guys walked on with tattered jeans, ridding so low on their waist that every time they turned around they would moon you. I have flown non rev numerous times on Delta, and no way are the standards as low as you claim they are. From a uniform perspective, the Delta crews have some of the most rigorous uniform policies and you claim any clown can non rev with them??

two things.
wow you failed on the none racist thing. Big time. Thus your credit has already completely gone right out the window.
second, Delta has a very, very lack dress code(10x compared to what I grew up on. Basically I still wear a tie to fly because it just doesn't feel right, even on a paid ticket. I did shorts one time and i kept expecting my granddad(whos pass i use to fly on) to show up and stick a foot in my ass) any ways, now you can basically wear anything you want. No jeans that are super cut up(but can be somewhat cut up) no flip flops, no PJs, no swimming suits. No ass or breast hanging out. uhhhh no wording your mother would like.....thats about it. (oh word of advice. I have spent a solid 15 years non-reving on Delta, Mayor much long than that. I know the rules like the back of my hand and I know he does too. I wouldn't go about calling BS on people like him. just sayin)

good luck with the fight mayor. Clearly everyone on here already knows exactly what happened and has already made a judgement. (and a lot of them are amazingly perfect in life. hell i hope im that cool when i grow up haha  )

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: art
Posted 2013-04-17 02:58:38 and read 4844 times.

Quoting jagflyer (Reply 110):
A wifebeater shirt is basically a white undershirt which is (outside of the US) worn normally only as an undergarment when wearing a collared shirt.

Thanks for the explanation..

Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 103):
Flying on a buddy pass is a privilige. It is not a right or expectation. If you cannot abide by simple rules governing how you are to dress, behave, and respect the cabin crew then pay full price for a ticket and behave and look the way you want.

If you are offered a gift with strings attached (dress code) then I think as you do.

What surprises me having read the replies in this thread is that almost none refer to the way in which the two concerned were prepared to disregard the welfare of their buddy and benefactor. They appear to have repaid the favour of their buddy by showing a complete disregard for that person's interest due to their desire for financial gain.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: skywaymanaz
Posted 2013-04-17 04:58:45 and read 4776 times.

Quoting art (Reply 116):
What surprises me having read the replies in this thread is that almost none refer to the way in which the two concerned were prepared to disregard the welfare of their buddy and benefactor.

I never cease to be amazed at how ungrateful some people are. I doubt they're on speaking terms with this friend now. I had a friend once whose parents were selling their house. He wanted my help to fly there on a buddy pass and help with packing up his stuff from the house to drive back cross country. It was the only buddy pass I ever got on TWA after my flight benefits as a dependent of an employee expired. He wanted to bring his dog along so I was insistent that the only option available to him was to depart on the 130a PHX-STL red eye. He was very angry with me over that and thought I was being unreasonable because I wouldn't even consider any other flight. Well no I wouldn't, it almost always had a light load and we'd have all day in STL to make the connection to CLE. This was in the middle of summer. I didn't want his dog baking on the tarmac or waiting forever in the kennel at baggage claim. Let's face it the dog had a better chance of making the flights then we did. A lot of airlines wouldn't take a pet in PHX in the summer. Also TWA had gotten some bad press recently at the time for a lot of dogs baking on a plane at MCI and needing to be put down. I really did not want to push that one tiny little bit on a buddy pass. So I heard complaining about that red eye the whole way there and the whole way back. Not one thank you even to my parents when we stopped by on the way back and my father had gotten us the buddy passes to begin with. My friend was more upset my mother didn't want to let his dog in the house. At least he wore a collared shirt on the plane though but yeah I never got a buddy pass offer ever again.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: flybry
Posted 2013-04-17 05:36:32 and read 4745 times.

The two guys who filed this lawsuit are pathetic. I don't think the employee should be fired, but his buddy pass privileges should be suspended. I think it's sad these two guys are saying this is racial discrimination when it is obviously not. It's a slap in the face to anyone who has ever suffered racial discrimination.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: COPolynesianPub
Posted 2013-04-17 08:09:16 and read 4660 times.

My first thought when I read the headllne was: First Class? How did they manage that? I can barely get a center seat after 35 years seniority!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-18 08:54:06 and read 4394 times.

Quoting COPolynesianPub (Reply 119):
after 35 years seniority!

Almost as a rule, the people that I've given buddy passes to, have fared better, seating wise, than I have. I tell them no to expect business elite or first class and sure enough, that's what they get.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: cbphoto
Posted 2013-04-18 11:47:36 and read 4320 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 115):
two things. wow you failed on the none racist thing. Big time. Thus your credit has already completely gone right out the window. second, Delta has a very, very lack dress code(10x compared to what I grew up on. Basically I still wear a tie to fly because it just doesn't feel right, even on a paid ticket. I did shorts one time and i kept expecting my granddad(whos pass i use to fly on) to show up and stick a foot in my ass) any ways, now you can basically wear anything you want. No jeans that are super cut up(but can be somewhat cut up) no flip flops, no PJs, no swimming suits. No ass or breast hanging out. uhhhh no wording your mother would like.....thats about it. (oh word of advice. I have spent a solid 15 years non-reving on Delta, Mayor much long than that. I know the rules like the back of my hand and I know he does too. I wouldn't go about calling BS on people like him. just sayin)

How did I fail on the race card? Have you been out in society recently and seen the styles out there? People of every race and color are wearing their pants well below their butt, it's the style today, and I fail to see how it was a racist comment?

Delta might have a laid back dress code, heck mine does as well, but their are limits to even the most laid back of dress codes. Walking onto an airplane as a non rev in tattered jeans, riding below your waste line and in a shirt that may or may not be appropriate for the flight doesn't cut it. You even said it yourself what those limits are and you are saying it's ok that these guys did no follow the rules and are now claiming a discrimination lawsuit? No way is what these guys did is right in anyway and yes, I still think the employee should be held accountable for his or her actions and face the consequences, which could include termination.

I am glad you and Mayor have spend 15+ years non-revving and I have been non-revving a good chunk of my life as well, but todays society has changed. It drives me nuts seeing people walk onto my airplane in their PJs as if hey just rolled out of bed at the gate. I can't say or do anything, but when it comes to non-revs I am happy that these sort get kicked off and put in their proper place! As a non-rev, you are a guest of the company and your attire and attitude need to reflect that!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-18 16:45:45 and read 4146 times.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 121):
Delta might have a laid back dress code, heck mine does as well, but their are limits to even the most laid back of dress codes.

Did you manage to see DL's dress code in my post #102? That's it.....that's all there is to it.





The point of this whole thing is this......IF the employee told these two about the dress code and they still broke it, that employee should be blameless. Punished, maybe, but not terminated. Yeah, yeah, I know what the rules say, but I'll say it again.........I've never gone along with the way those rules are written. If the pass riders KNOW the rules and still are bent on breaking them and screwing their employee friend, then it's THEM that should be punished, not the employee. However, if the employee simply gave them the passes without any warnings of the rules, then HE should be punished. Now, I'll still abide by the way they're written, because I don't have any choice but it also means that I don't give many of them out.

From what I can gather about this, apparently US has a slightly different dress code for first class than they do for coach.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-04-18 22:56:44 and read 3994 times.

Quoting 4engines4lnghll (Reply 114):
if your sitting in coach you must wear jeans

No, you don't have to wear jeans.

Quoting mayor (Reply 59):
If I failed to instruct them in the ins and outs of non-rev travel, yes......I should be punished. However, if I took the time to tell them what to do or not to do and they STILL failed to follow the rules, why should the employee be punished.
Quoting mayor (Reply 122):
The point of this whole thing is this......IF the employee told these two about the dress code and they still broke it, that employee should be blameless. Punished, maybe, but not terminated. Yeah, yeah, I know what the rules say, but I'll say it again.........I've never gone along with the way those rules are written. If the pass riders KNOW the rules and still are bent on breaking them and screwing their employee friend, then it's THEM that should be punished, not the employee. However, if the employee simply gave them the passes without any warnings of the rules, then HE should be punished.

(Q)How can an employee PROVE that he told the non-revenue/buddy pass rider the rules?

(A)There should be a new form developed explaining the rules and expectations of non-revenue travel. The form could be printed at the check-in kiosk. Have non-revenue pass riders sign that form and have the gate agent collect and include that form with the gate sheet at the end of a flight. If the non-revenue pass rider doesn't provide/sign that form, they can't board the flight. If they don't have the form, the gate agent should be able to print one, similar to a MDLEO or MDPUM form.

That way, no non-revenue pass rider can claim ignorance of the rules. They also waive legal recourse.

Problem solved.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: 4engines4lnghll
Posted 2013-04-19 02:16:13 and read 3924 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 123):
No, you don't have to wear jeans.

When flying on buddy passes or standby , you sure do... That is if you want a seat  

[Edited 2013-04-19 02:17:36]

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-04-19 05:19:36 and read 3866 times.

Quoting 4engines4lnghll (Reply 124):
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 123):
No, you don't have to wear jeans.

When flying on buddy passes or standby , you sure do... That is if you want a seat

So, if you're wearing dress pants you can't fly on a buddy pass but if you've got jeans on you can?

'Sorry sir, you're not allowed to wear that 3-piece suit to fly using a buddy pass, you MUST change into jeans.'

What airline requires that? Do tell us, please. That's like reverse discrimination!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-04-19 05:23:28 and read 3855 times.

Of course, blue jeans are not required in coach for NRSAs. Get a grip, folks.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-19 08:03:49 and read 3849 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 123):
(Q)How can an employee PROVE that he told the non-revenue/buddy pass rider the rules?

There's no way, of course......you'd hope that the employee would be honest enough to say what happened.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 123):
(A)There should be a new form developed explaining the rules and expectations of non-revenue travel. The form could be printed at the check-in kiosk. Have non-revenue pass riders sign that form and have the gate agent collect and include that form with the gate sheet at the end of a flight. If the non-revenue pass rider doesn't provide/sign that form, they can't board the flight. If they don't have the form, the gate agent should be able to print one, similar to a MDLEO or MDPUM form.

That way, no non-revenue pass rider can claim ignorance of the rules. They also waive legal recourse.

Problem solved.

Good luck with that. Gate agents, with the advent of the new dress code (or lack, thereof), just gave up their job of "fashion police". I doubt if they're going to want to be collecting these forms AND making sure there's one for every non rev on board. On some "non-rev" specials, there's upwards of 60+ non-revs on the flight. You could end up with a file, several inches thick. Gate agents can be swamped as it is, just taking care of revenue pax.........the company is not going to add on to their burden AND take away from them helping the revenue pax, just for the non-revs. Not gonna happen.

Maybe the solution is to just eliminate the buddy pass program or require them to fly with the employee, as it used to be.

[Edited 2013-04-19 08:04:30]

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: FI642
Posted 2013-04-19 09:48:29 and read 3807 times.

When I non-rev? Suit and tie. Call me old school, but that's how I do it.

I gave a friend of mine a hard to get positive space F pass I'd won. He showed up
in a ratty T-shirt and cut off sweats. Obviously I not only heard about it, but got a
letter from the company regarding it. (and he heard about it from me!)

Moral of the story, unless you fly as their baby-sitter, folks are gonna do what they
want. As far as a law suit? Americans are litigation crazy. There is a major
misconception that air carriers have piles of cash laying around for such frivolity.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: Schweigend
Posted 2013-04-19 21:53:11 and read 3659 times.

Quoting COPolynesianPub (Reply 119):
My first thought when I read the headllne was: First Class? How did they manage that? I can barely get a center seat after 35 years seniority!

Indeed. That flight must not have had many F pax to begin with.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 112):
I could believe the gate agent was trying to extend a courtesy at a bad time for them.

For all we know, the two fellows might have been confirmed in Y and were told by the agent that he or she could upgrade them if they changed their clothes. Because the agent felt compassion for them.

IDK. Would their originally "inappropriate" outfits also have been unsuitable for Coach? What exactly were they wearing, anyway?

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 123):
(Q)How can an employee PROVE that he told the non-revenue/buddy pass rider the rules?

(A)There should be a new form developed explaining the rules and expectations of non-revenue travel. The form could be printed at the check-in kiosk. Have non-revenue pass riders sign that form and have the gate agent collect and include that form with the gate sheet at the end of a flight. If the non-revenue pass rider doesn't provide/sign that form, they can't board the flight. If they don't have the form, the gate agent should be able to print one, similar to a MDLEO or MDPUM form.

That way, no non-revenue pass rider can claim ignorance of the rules. They also waive legal recourse.

Problem solved.

Well, I just looked at an ePass ticket receipt from United, and the Pass Travel Attire guidelines are printed right there on the page, along with other suggestions and guidelines. After the ePass has been issued, the receipt is emailed or faxed almost immediately, so I don't see how it could be claimed that the "Buddies" didn't know the dress code, unless US doesn't include such advisements in their ePass receipts, or perhaps the US employee had the receipts sent to himself only, and didn't pass them on to these "Buddies".

Quoting mayor (Reply 127):
Maybe the solution is to just eliminate the buddy pass program or require them to fly with the employee, as it used to be.

     

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-19 22:44:45 and read 3641 times.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 129):
Well, I just looked at an ePass ticket receipt from United, and the Pass Travel Attire guidelines are printed right there on the page, along with other suggestions and guidelines. After the ePass has been issued, the receipt is emailed or faxed almost immediately, so I don't see how it could be claimed that the "Buddies" didn't know the dress code, unless US doesn't include such advisements in their ePass receipts, or perhaps the US employee had the receipts sent to himself only, and didn't pass them on to these "Buddies".

Now that you mention it, the same thing happens with a buddy pass on DL.......I wonder if US' system is the same way?

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: Schweigend
Posted 2013-04-19 23:37:59 and read 3621 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 130):
I wonder if US' system is the same way?

That is a central question. I wish someone knowledgeable about US's policies and procedures regarding Buddies would chime in...but I could understand why that someone might not want to expose themselves here.

In the old days, I'd give buddy pass riders a printed sheet with all the guidelines on it, but that is no longer needed with everything being spelled out on the ePass receipt. Nonetheless, BP riders still receive a clear and strong verbal advisement from me personally about what's what!

Cheers

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-04-20 11:08:44 and read 3506 times.

Quoting 4engines4lnghll (Reply 124):

When flying on buddy passes or standby , you sure do... That is if you want a seat

At some airlines, yes. At others, no.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: 4engines4lnghll
Posted 2013-04-20 11:36:41 and read 3489 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 125):

What im saying is that if you're wearing something less than jeans its most likely you wont get on.... Depending on the airline. No need to be sarcastic.  

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-04-20 12:47:02 and read 3450 times.

Quoting 4engines4lnghll (Reply 133):

There was a need, you were stating something ambiguous as fact. I used sarcasm to show how your statement couldn't possibly be correct. Now that you've cleared up the ambiguity and redefined your statement, I'll tone down the sarcasm....but only just a little bit.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-04-21 02:08:59 and read 3298 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 123):

(Q)How can an employee PROVE that he told the non-revenue/buddy pass rider the rules?

(A)Doesn't matter. The employee accepts and then gives out passes with the understanding any misbehavior or failure to adhere to non-rev policies by people traveling under their buddy passes will reflect on the employee, and can result in disciplinary action up to and including termination.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-21 07:43:05 and read 3178 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 135):
(A)Doesn't matter. The employee accepts and then gives out passes with the understanding any misbehavior or failure to adhere to non-rev policies by people traveling under their buddy passes will reflect on the employee, and can result in disciplinary action up to and including termination.

We KNOW how the system is, NOW.......we've all admitted that and stated that we abide by the rules. I also stated that I never agreed with the way the system was set up, from the beginning, but I still abide by it because there's no other choice. My original statement regarding this was that I thought that the employee should not be held responsible IF it can be proven that he told the pass recipients the rules and regs.........but, that's if the system was different, not the way it is, NOW.


Over on Facebook, someone was asking for a high seniority buddy pass, if anyone had any left. When no one responded, they had a difficult time understanding why we wouldn't want to give one out to a perfect stranger and, for the most part, it's because of the policy of the employee being completely responsible for the recipient's actions.

[Edited 2013-04-21 07:46:20]

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-04-21 14:50:25 and read 3047 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 136):
I also stated that I never agreed with the way the system was set up, from the beginning

And guess what? If you don't agree with it - and see if you can follow along with me, here - you have the option to NOT GIVE ANY PASSES OUT.

I don't see what's so difficult about that. And again, I wouldn't advocate disciplinary action in every single case of buddy pass travelers being idiots. Seeing as this resulted in such negative public attention, the punishment (termination) fits the crime.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-04-21 18:46:28 and read 2967 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 127):
Maybe the solution is to just eliminate the buddy pass program or require them to fly with the employee, as it used to be.

[Edited 2013-04-19 08:04:30]

Eliminating the programs is rather drastic. But truly making them "companion" passes for the employee to take a companion along would save a lot of headaches, albeit at the cost of flexibility. Any gate agent can tell you horror stories about clueless unaccompanied buddy pass travelers.

A gate agent's job is tough enough, with full flights, oversales, monitoring carry-on, the relentless pressure for on-time, and the insipid marketing announcements at some carriers. Dealing with buddy pass riders who are ignorant of - or unwilling - to comply with the rules should not be included.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-04-21 19:22:46 and read 2903 times.

Making an employee travel with a buddy pass rider takes a seat away from someone who might otherwise have gotten on.

Simply do as I do, MAKE SURE the buddy pass rider KNOWS the rules/policies before issuing the buddy pass. As stated in a prior post, all of my buddy pass riders are WELL experienced in the trials and tribulations of buddy pass travel. They've ALL experienced some form of problem and have learned to deal with it. Even so, whenever I issue a buddy pass to these same people, I STILL read the riot act even though they know it well enough to read it to ME! I am confident that my buddy pass riders will behave and act according to policy. They've got a good thing going, and they KNOW IT!

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: copter808
Posted 2013-04-21 19:55:18 and read 2862 times.

Quoting cv880 (Reply 4):
Employee should be fired

Why are people here so quick to call for anyone making a mistake to be fired? What would be your thoughts if it was one of YOUR pass riders?

People make mistakes. If everyone was "fired" every time they made a mistake, nobody would be employed!

More importantly, in a field like aviation, the accident rate would soar as everyone tried to cover their mistakes and we never learned from them.

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-21 21:52:26 and read 2817 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 137):
And guess what? If you don't agree with it - and see if you can follow along with me, here - you have the option to NOT GIVE ANY PASSES OUT.

Oh, I follow you fine.......I just don't agree with you....that IS okay, right?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 137):
Seeing as this resulted in such negative public attention, the punishment (termination) fits the crime.

And since the buddy pass riders in this case were idiots, how is the fact that there's negative public attention the fault of the employee? That's no more his fault than the fact that his "friends" have seen fit screw him, in public. On top of that, if this comes out negatively for the employee, NOTHING will happen to those two guys other than they won't get to ride on a buddy pass anymore, either from the same employee or another (nobody would be stupid enough to give them to them).

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-04-22 00:31:17 and read 2772 times.

Notes to those above regarding the dress code:
If you pay that money for the ticket, or get upgraded, you definitely deserve to wear whatever you want as long as it isn't offensive of course....hell when I flew first class from SEA-SLC-PHX when I was rebooked cuz of my japan arrival coming in late, I reeked of travel related body odor, and was wearing a band t shirt and jeans. Nobody at DL gave a crap because they all knew I was loyal traveler who paid for my travel.

These guys again didn't.

Quoting mayor (Reply 109):
Finally, some blame goes to the actual perpetrators of this whole stupid thing.

I've been blaming them the whole time, and same have a lot of us....where have you been? Lol

Topic: RE: Discrimination Lawsuit Filed Against US Air
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-04-22 08:05:40 and read 2664 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 142):

I've been blaming them the whole time, and same have a lot of us....where have you been? Lol

Right here, bubba.........watching the lynch mob form up for the employee


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