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Topic: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 11:00:34 and read 10241 times.

So I was looking at the number of flights that each offered and noticed that AA has a much larger presence at a UA fortress hub when compared to UA's presence at DFW. Why is that?

Here are a few details to be observed: Date: Monday April 22nd

UA: IAH-DFW --- 5x ERJ, 3X CRJ 700, 1x A319 = 9
UA: ORD-DFW ---- 4x CRJ 700, 1x A319, 1x A320 = 6
UA: EWR-DFW ---- 1x E170, 1x ERJ, 2x 738, 1x A319, 1x A320 = 6
UA: SFO-DFW ---- 3x CRJ700, 1x 738 = 4
UA: LAX-DFW ---- 3x CRJ700 = 3
UA: CLE-DFW ---- 4x ERJ = 4
UA: IAD-DFW ---- 2x CRJ700, 1x 738 = 3
UA: DEN-DFW ---- 1x E170, 2x A319, 1x 737-700 = 4

Total flights: 39
Total mainline: 12
Total regional: 27

AA: DFW-IAH ---- 6x MD80 = 6
AA:ORD-IAH ---- 4x CRJ700 = 4
AA: MIA-IAH ---- 6x 738 = 6
AA: JFK-IAH ---- 1x 738 = 1
AA: LAX-IAH ---- 3x CRJ700 = 3

Total flights: 20
Total mainline: 13
Total regional: 7

Now looking at the data it is obvious that UA has more flights out of DFW that UA has at IAH, however the ratio between mainline and regional is different. Why is it that AA can sustain 6 daily mainline flights on the DFW-IAH route when UA can only support 1? I also noticed that the reason UA has more flights out of DFW than AA has from IAH is because UA has more hubs than AA. Could that be the reason why AA has more mainline at IAH due to less amount of hubs to funnel passengers?

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 11:23:07 and read 10121 times.

UA is bigger at DFW than AA at IAH and they UA has 50% more frequency on IAH-DFW while AA has 20% more seats.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 11:24:02 and read 10113 times.

 Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):Now looking at the data it is obvious that UA has more flights out of DFW that UA has at IAH, however the ratio between mainline and regional is different. Why is it that AA can sustain 6 daily mainline flights on the DFW-IAH route when UA can only support 1? I also noticed that the reason UA has more flights out of DFW than AA has from IAH is because UA has more hubs than AA. Could that be the reason why AA has more mainline at IAH due to less amount of hubs to funnel passengers?

Offhand I'd say that explains at least part of it -- probably not all, but at least some. On IAH-DFW for instance, UA has decided to go for frequency rather than mainline flights (as we often see these days) so it's not unthinkable that they would put less mainline here, but OTOH they offer total fewer daily seats (not to mention fewer F seats) as well.

So I think you're seeing comparative advantage at play here, where each is leveraging what it perceives as strengths and/or routes of emphasis (some routes will always be more important to you than others).

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 11:29:32 and read 10070 times.

39 UA flights into DFW? Dude, that's one of they're largest outstations!

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 11:31:04 and read 10046 times.

Yes, what are UA's largest nonhub stations? DFW must be upthere.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 11:46:03 and read 9928 times.

 Quoting klwright69 (Reply 4):Yes, what are UA's largest nonhub stations? DFW must be upthere.

I believe LAS and BOS are the two largest UA outstations. MCO is also sizable.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 11:47:35 and read 9925 times.

I'm sorry I did not make myself clear. I was actually referring to the amount of mainline flights and the fact that even though UA has more destinations out of DFW, AA isn't that far behind at IAH with the majority of the flights being mainline. My theory lies in that AA has fewer hubs to funnel passengers through so that could be the reason for more mainline flying. I wanted to see your opinions.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 11:48:33 and read 9899 times.

 Quoting HPRamper (Reply 5): I believe LAS and BOS are the two largest UA outstations. MCO is also sizable.

FLL has to be up there too if you include the Silver Airways flights.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 11:49:47 and read 9899 times.

Not to mention, UA also flies into DAL.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 11:51:09 and read 9885 times.

 Quoting avi8 (Thread starter): So I was looking at the number of flights that each offered and noticed that AA has a much larger presence at a UA fortress hub when compared to UA's presence at DFW. Why is that?

I think the answers is pretty simple: UA has more hubs right now that AA. Once AA and US merge there will be flights to PHX, PHL, CLT and potentially DCA (i'm not sure about perimeter and slots though).

Thus, UA likely has a larger presence is most major cities because they have more hubs to fly to. This will change shortly.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 11:55:21 and read 9838 times.

What you're saying make no sense, as UA at DFW is larger than AA at IAH. But, even if your premise was correct, you would have to look at individual market size and brand loyalty in their respective markets. Plus, you have to look at which point of sale each airline is looking at. Based on the amount of RJs on the AA routes, they seem to be focusing on more O&D while UA wants more connections.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 12:10:41 and read 9742 times.

"Why is AA at IAH so small compared to UA at DFW"

Confusing

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 12:20:22 and read 9664 times.

Both airlines are simply flying to their hubs, and it looks like UA has more hubs.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 12:34:37 and read 9609 times.

 Quoting Polot (Reply 7): FLL has to be up there too if you include the Silver Airways flights.
FLL is big for UA but not as big as LAS, MCO, or BOS which have more mainline flights.

Also MCO isn't a base but LAS and BOS are. My recent EWR-FLL flight had BOS crew on the 757.

[Edited 2013-04-21 13:17:30]

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 12:37:22 and read 9603 times.

 Quoting LOWS (Reply 8):Not to mention, UA also flies into DAL.

AA also flies to HOU...

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 13:13:27 and read 9417 times.

Does UA fly more people out of DFW vs AA out of IAH and how does AA do in Hobby Airport vs UA at Love Field in Dallas?

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 13:14:14 and read 9405 times.

 Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):Why is it that AA can sustain 6 daily mainline flights on the DFW-IAH route when UA can only support 1?

One reason. southwest has over 25 daily HOU -DAL Flights. Both AA and UA lose money flying people between Houston and Dallas so both stay relatively small.

Also don't forget UA flies to DAL.

One final reason is the fleet planning at UA prior to the merger. UA dumped its 737 classics right after bankruptcy and outsourced the flying to E170 s andCR7s. UA had a shortage of Mainline narrow bodies. Even large airports in the center of the country went to mostly regional flying. Fortunately all the 737s that CO had and the new airplanes the airline is taking are helping bring mainline back to where it belongs.

[Edited 2013-04-21 13:20:49]

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 13:28:03 and read 9335 times.

First of all, your AA figures are wrong.

IAH-DFW: 8 times daily except weekends where there are 7. (S80)
IAH-MIA: 5 times daily (738)
IAH-ORD: 4 times daily except Saturdays where there are 3 (CR7) (switching to E75 on OCT 1)
IAH-LAX: 3 times daily (CR7)
IAH-JFK: 1 times daily (738)

Chicago and Los Angeles are with American Eagle. All other flights are mainline.

American Eagle also flies 8 times daily to HOU from DFW

This argument really has no standing, but I have found one thing quite interesting. On Dallas-UA hub routes, AA is larger than UA. eg: George Bush Intercontinental, Chicago, EWR, Los Angeles, DEN, all have a larger AA presence even though UA has hubs at the destination. I think this is due to UA reassures being too broad (ie too many hubs).

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 13:31:52 and read 9313 times.

 Quoting tommy767 (Reply 13):My recent EWR-FLL flight had BOS crew on the 757.

UA has a crew/pilot base in BOS?

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 13:35:37 and read 9291 times.

 Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):Fortunately all the 737s that CO had and the new airplanes the airline is taking are helping bring mainline back to where it belongs.

I would love to see more mainline on DFW-IAH. It would be a lot easier for me to go home from college on the weekends than trying to squeeze in (literally and figuratively because I'm 6'2" and I nonrev!) on an RJ!

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 13:42:28 and read 9237 times.

 Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 18):UA has a crew/pilot base in BOS?

Sure do. There is a fair amount of mainline flights there. One of the few smaller UA bases that didn't get shut down during BK, along with SEA and LAS.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 13:47:13 and read 9196 times.

 Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):Sure do. There is a fair amount of mainline flights there. One of the few smaller UA bases that didn't get shut down during BK, along with SEA and LAS.

Is it for pilots, FA's, or both?

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 13:52:12 and read 9165 times.

The reason AA is flying more mainline is because their scope clause has been far more restricted than UA's. I have not done the math, but of you adjust the number of flights to a seat count, I suspect the two will be very close.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 13:55:51 and read 9156 times.

IIRC, both. I could be wrong though. Definitely an F/A base.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 14:34:23 and read 8860 times.

 Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):oth AA and UA lose money flying people between Houston and Dallas so both stay relatively small.

I'd be curious to see whether the percentage of O&D passengers flying on UA/AA between IAH and DFW is noticeably less than the percentage of O&D pax on the other routes of the respective non-hub. I would imagine that the main purpose for those flights are to attract connecting passengers.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 14:46:44 and read 9035 times.

 Quoting us330 (Reply 24):I'd be curious to see whether the percentage of O&D passengers flying on UA/AA between IAH and DFW is noticeably less than the percentage of O&D pax on the other routes of the respective non-hub. I would imagine that the main purpose for those flights are to attract connecting passengers.

I would'nt be surprised to see a larger number in O/D pax as compared to other city pairs. Houston and Dallas have a huge economic cooperation, so, for example, an oil exec. from Dallas may fly to Houston to see whats going on in the HQ or check out a rig of the coast of Galveston, or some other reason.

Also, VFR is huge between the areas. I know TONS of people in Houston that have family in the Dallas area and vice-versa.

Plus there is the occasional college kid like me that flies home to Houston every so often from DFW

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 14:52:50 and read 9012 times.

I think we may have forgotten one major factor here; the Houston metro area is simply larger and more important economically than the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 15:13:33 and read 8947 times.

 Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26):I think we may have forgotten one major factor here; the Houston metro area is simply larger and more important economically than the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.

Me thinks you've just awoken a sleeping giant!!! LOL OK DFW area slightly larger than Houston (we're talking metro areas here, not city proper size) Which one is more economically important, I'd have no idea. I'd imagine that the difference would be miniscule at best. Either way, DFW and Houston are like brothers (think Bo and Luke Duke) that Mama Texas can be equally proud of.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 15:50:53 and read 8562 times.

 Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26): I think we may have forgotten one major factor here; the Houston metro area is simply larger and more important economically than the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.

Wow I assume there is some sarcasm in there. A.net has a fascination with Houston, but DFW serves 30-40% more passengers per year than IAH and despite Houston being a larger city, the Dallas metro area has about a half million more people than Houston.

 Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 25):I would'nt be surprised to see a larger number in O/D pax as compared to other city pairs. Houston and Dallas have a huge economic cooperation, so, for example, an oil exec. from Dallas may fly to Houston to see whats going on in the HQ or check out a rig of the coast of Galveston, or some other reason.

No doubt that there is a lot of O/D between the markets, but southwest owns 75% of the market and has figured out how to make a profit out of \$79 fares.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 15:55:26 and read 8496 times.

 Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28):but DFW serves 30-40% more passengers per year

DFW also is more conveniently located in the middle of the country for connections than IAH, and PAX know that.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 16:02:54 and read 8415 times.

 Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28):Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 25): I would'nt be surprised to see a larger number in O/D pax as compared to other city pairs. Houston and Dallas have a huge economic cooperation, so, for example, an oil exec. from Dallas may fly to Houston to see whats going on in the HQ or check out a rig of the coast of Galveston, or some other reason. No doubt that there is a lot of O/D between the markets, but southwest owns 75% of the market and has figured out how to make a profit out of \$79 fares.

The passengers that make the route profitable and motivate WN to serve it with 25x are not buying \$79 WGA fares.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 16:03:58 and read 8419 times.

 Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 29):Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28): but DFW serves 30-40% more passengers per year DFW also is more conveniently located in the middle of the country for connections than IAH, and PAX know that.

Although a little old, the last numbers I have seen have both DFW and IAH at around 60% connecting passengers each. DFW was 61% and IAH 59%. You are right that DFW serves more connecting passengers, but O/D numbers are also higher at DFW.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 16:16:16 and read 8323 times.

 Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 31):O/D numbers are also higher at DFW.

DFW doesn't have half the local domestic O/D going to another airport like IAH does with HOU. DAL gets some but thanks to the Wright Amendment the bleed is greatly limited in scope...

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 17:00:17 and read 7932 times.

 Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28):Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26): I think we may have forgotten one major factor here; the Houston metro area is simply larger and more important economically than the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. Wow I assume there is some sarcasm in there

Well, you know what they say about assuming...because there was no sarcasm intended. Check out the number of Fortune 500 companies based in or around the Houston metro area vs. those in the Dallas area and get back to me.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 17:14:32 and read 7828 times.

 Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20): Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 18): UA has a crew/pilot base in BOS? Sure do. There is a fair amount of mainline flights there. One of the few smaller UA bases that didn't get shut down during BK, along with SEA and LAS.
 Quoting tommy767 (Reply 23): Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 21): IIRC, both. I could be wrong though. Definitely an F/A base.

Of these cities, only SEA is a pilot domicile.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 17:31:44 and read 7701 times.

WoW, the idea of flying a CR7 between IAH-LAX or DFW-SFO is painful. Happy I flew a 763 today between DFW and SFO on AA; so much more comfortable even if the plane itself is old and lacks the modern amenities.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 17:40:32 and read 7631 times.

I did it DFW-LAX on a CR7 in Y+ and it wasn't terrible, even better than flying IAH-SNA on a 737, and I'm 6'2".

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 18:15:35 and read 7382 times.

 Quoting klwright69 (Reply 4):Yes, what are UA's largest nonhub stations? DFW must be upthere.

DFW is up there. In fact a few years ago UA was sending a lot of their new hires in other OZ (line) stations to DFW for training for the fact that it was a large OZ Station and had all narrow body aircraft types.

Here are some of the larger out stations # of departures are based on tomorrow's (04/22) schedule.

DFW: 39
AUS: 32 (have intl departures to Mexico on select days)
BOS: 47 (excluding Cape Air flights)
LGA: 42
DCA: 32
MCO: 41
LAS: 52 (including PSP & FAT service by Skywest)
SAN: 40 (including LAX service by Skywest)
MSY: 26
TPA: 25
SEA: 37 (including PDX service by Skywest)
PDX: 41 (including SEA, YVR, LMT, RDM, and EUG service by Skywest)
PHX: 26
MSP: 29

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 19:54:03 and read 6652 times.

 Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26): I think we may have forgotten one major factor here; the Houston metro area is simply larger and more important economically than the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.

It may be slightly, but the difference in importance is going to be small at best. If you want to look at fortune 500 companies alone as an indicator of importance, I hope nobody every hires you as a consultant. Lets look at a more all around perspective huh?:

Top metro areas by fortune 500 compaines

New York City MSA - 66
Bay Area - 30
Chicago MSA - 29
Houston MSA - 25
Los Angeles MSA - 20
Washington D.C. MSA - 20
Dallas - Fort Worth MSA - 18
Minneapolis - St. Paul MSA - 18
Atlanta MSA - 13
Detroit MSA - 13
Boston MSA - 10
Charlotte MSA - 9

So there are 7 more fortune 500's in the Houston area. If you would like to cling to the notion that Fortune 500 are the tell all, I cant wait to hear your explanation on how much more important Minneapolis is than Atlanta.

Now lets look at economy size (gross domestic product):

New York: 1.460 trillion
Los Angeles: 881.2 billion
Washington DC: 575 billion
Bay Area: 544.9 billion
Chicago: 539 billion
Boston: 430.2 billion
Houston: 384.6 billion
Dallas: 377.5 billion
Atlanta: 278.8 billion
Miami: 257.5 billion
Seattle: 254.3 billion
Detroit: 231.5 billion
Minneapolis: 207 billion

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/6615/urban515.jpg

Now lets look at the areas global city index. This was done by the Economist Intelligence Unit based on the cities ties with foreign countries and the ability to attract investors from foreign countries:

New York City 71.4
D.C. 66.1
Chicago 65.9
Boston 64.5
San Francisco 63.3
Los Angeles 61.5
Houston 59.9
Dallas 59.8
Seattle: 59.3
Atlanta: 58.2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_...City_Competitiveness_Index.5B32.5D

All in all, is Houston more important than DFW? Probably yes, but slightly. However, the point youre trying to make is a nonstarter. Trying to say that somehow has to do with the levels of service offered by UA at DFW or AA at IAH, it ridiculous.

 Quoting BC77008 (Reply 27):Me thinks you've just awoken a sleeping giant!!! LOL OK DFW area slightly larger than Houston (we're talking metro areas here, not city proper size) Which one is more economically important, I'd have no idea. I'd imagine that the difference would be miniscule at best. Either way, DFW and Houston are like brothers (think Bo and Luke Duke) that Mama Texas can be equally proud of.

And there you have it.

[Edited 2013-04-21 19:55:09]

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 20:50:51 and read 6305 times.

Seems like most here are stuck on th topic of frequencies. Allow me to calculate the seats for both carriers...

 Quoting avi8 (Thread starter): UA: IAH-DFW --- 5x ERJ, 3X CRJ 700, 1x A319 = 9 (3,976 seats) UA: ORD-DFW ---- 4x CRJ 700, 1x A319, 1x A320 = 6 (3,654 seats) UA: EWR-DFW ---- 1x E170, 1x ERJ, 2x 738, 1x A319, 1x A320 = 6 (4,774 seats) UA: SFO-DFW ---- 3x CRJ700, 1x 738 = 4 (2,464 seats) UA: LAX-DFW ---- 3x CRJ700 = 3 (1,386 seats) UA: CLE-DFW ---- 4x ERJ = 4 (1,400 seats) UA: IAD-DFW ---- 2x CRJ700, 1x 738 = 3 (2,002 seats) UA: DEN-DFW ---- 1x E170, 2x A319, 1x 737-700 = 4 (2,156 seats)

 Quoting BA0197 (Reply 17): IAH-DFW: 8 times daily except weekends where there are 7. (S80) (7,560 seats) IAH-MIA: 5 times daily (738) (5,250 seats) IAH-ORD: 4 times daily except Saturdays where there are 3 (CR7) (1,701 seats) IAH-LAX: 3 times daily (CR7) (1,323 seats) IAH-JFK: 1 times daily (738) (1050 seats)

Assuming the seatcounts published by seatguru, this equals 16,884 seats per week.

So while UA has 86% more departures, they only have 29% more overall capacity. That is still big, but not as big as one might think based on the frequency picture.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 21:00:54 and read 6241 times.

 Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 39):Seems like most here are stuck on th topic of frequencies. Allow me to calculate the seats for both carriers... Quoting avi8 (Thread starter): UA: IAH-DFW --- 5x ERJ, 3X CRJ 700, 1x A319 = 9 (3,976 seats) UA: ORD-DFW ---- 4x CRJ 700, 1x A319, 1x A320 = 6 (3,654 seats) UA: EWR-DFW ---- 1x E170, 1x ERJ, 2x 738, 1x A319, 1x A320 = 6 (4,774 seats) UA: SFO-DFW ---- 3x CRJ700, 1x 738 = 4 (2,464 seats) UA: LAX-DFW ---- 3x CRJ700 = 3 (1,386 seats) UA: CLE-DFW ---- 4x ERJ = 4 (1,400 seats) UA: IAD-DFW ---- 2x CRJ700, 1x 738 = 3 (2,002 seats) UA: DEN-DFW ---- 1x E170, 2x A319, 1x 737-700 = 4 (2,156 seats) Assuming the seatcounts published by seatguru, this equals 21,812 seats Quoting BA0197 (Reply 17): IAH-DFW: 8 times daily except weekends where there are 7. (S80) (7,560 seats) IAH-MIA: 5 times daily (738) (5,250 seats) IAH-ORD: 4 times daily except Saturdays where there are 3 (CR7) (1,701 seats) IAH-LAX: 3 times daily (CR7) (1,323 seats) IAH-JFK: 1 times daily (738) (1050 seats) Assuming the seatcounts published by seatguru, this equals 16,884 seats per week. So while UA has 86% more departures, they only have 29% more overall capacity. That is still big, but not as big as one might think based on the frequency picture.

Thanks for showing some real "numbers"!

While much smaller, what are the AA numbers for HOU-DFW and the UA ones IAH-DAL?

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 21:15:24 and read 6154 times.

 Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 40):While much smaller, what are the AA numbers for HOU-DFW and the UA ones IAH-DAL?Bye Bye Windjet

AA at HOU:

9 50-seaters to DFW= 450 seats/day

UA at DAL:

7 50-seaters to IAH= 350 seats/day

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 21:26:04 and read 6087 times.

Ummm, UA flies to EVERY hub that AA does from IAH. The way you word it, you make it sound as if AA is flying to all of these places from IAH, thus has a larger presence, but in actuality, AA is only flying to IAH from DFW and their other hubs. Now, look at any of those AA hubs listed, and I guarantee you UA flies to them ALL from ALL of their hubs. So the argument makes no sense. UA serves DFW more than AA serves IAH.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 22:50:07 and read 5732 times.

 Quoting BA0197 (Reply 17):IAH-DFW: 8 times daily except weekends where there are 7. (S80)

AA only operates around 4 or 5 flights a day to IAH from DFW. On weekends its no different.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-21 22:58:49 and read 5721 times.

 Quoting 4engines4lnghll (Reply 43):AA only operates around 4 or 5 flights a day to IAH from DFW. On weekends its no different.

No, aside from the fact BA0197 is an AA agent at IAH, go to aa.com and type in DFW to IAH for tomorrow.

You get 8 daily M80 departures
7am
9:40am
11:25am
12:30pm
2:45pm
4:25pm
6:15pm
8:50pm

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 03:04:33 and read 5215 times.

It changes quite a bit. At one point DFW-IAH was down to 5 flights a day.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 03:36:40 and read 5136 times.

 Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 25): would'nt be surprised to see a larger number in O/D pax as compared to other city pairs.

 Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28):No doubt that there is a lot of O/D between the markets, but southwest owns 75% of the market and has figured out how to make a profit out of \$79 fares.

Having grown up in Dallas, I'm very aware that taking Southwest out of Love for intra-Texas trips is a borderline innate consumer habit, and I doubt that many who live closer (or equidistant) to Love than to DFW are willing to schlep out to DFW for a hop down to San Antonio, Austin, or Houston.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 04:26:36 and read 4974 times.

 Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 38):Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26): I think we may have forgotten one major factor here; the Houston metro area is simply larger and more important economically than the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. It may be slightly, but the difference in importance is going to be small at best. If you want to look at fortune 500 companies alone as an indicator of importance, I hope nobody every hires you as a consultant. Lets look at a more all around perspective huh?: Top metro areas by fortune 500 compaines New York City MSA - 66 Bay Area - 30 Chicago MSA - 29 Houston MSA - 25 Los Angeles MSA - 20 Washington D.C. MSA - 20 Dallas - Fort Worth MSA - 18

First off, the personal slam was uncalled for. No need to be petty and insulting.

Second, I note from your profile that you're in Plano, part of the Dallas MSA. You'll forgive me if I take your opinion with a grain of salt the size of a Rubik's Cube as a result.

Third, by your own numbers here in comparison to Dallas, Houston has roughly THIRTY PERCENT MORE FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES. That's not insignificant.

You say you hope no one ever hires me as a consultant, yet this thread proves that for some reason, AA feels the need to have more lift to/from IAH than UA does from DFW. Are their consultants wrong too?

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 05:26:38 and read 4741 times.

 Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 22):The reason AA is flying more mainline is because their scope clause has been far more restricted than UA's.

We have a winner.

The reason why AA has a relatively large mainline presence at IAH - like many of its outstations in large metro areas - compared to similarly large metro outstations at DL and UA is that AA has more mainline period in its overall network. While AA's pilot union refused for years to accept it, and/or tried as hard as possible to resist it, AA is a decade behind the wave of shifting mass amounts of the network to regional. As such, it has catching up to do. Take a look at the "[Airline] hub departures" threads to see how stark the comparison is - the mainline share of operations as a proportion of the overall network is substantially higher at AA than its main competitors. IAH is just one microcosm of that.

 Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):First off, the personal slam was uncalled for. No need to be petty and insulting.

Is it really necessary to have this argument again? The DFW metro is large than Houston, but the two are close. Economically, both are vast metropolitan economic zones with enormous commercial activity. DFW's commercial activity is perhaps slightly more diversified, but also more domestically-oriented, while Houston's is somewhat more concentrated (energy-centric), but also definitely more international.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 05:40:34 and read 4646 times.

 Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):

I love how you ignored 2/3 of the factual data provided and zeroed on on Fortune 500 companies instead. Since you think number of fortune 500 companies is the be all tell all for how important a city is, what's your explanation for Minneapolis being more important than Atlanta? Is Detroit a more important city than Boston?

Second, your initial claim was tha Houston had a much larger economy than Dallas. Well, that is technically true, but the Houston economy is .0018% larger than the DFW economy. You want to tell me with a straight face that is significant?

Third, I posted global city data which you ignored. Both are very similar in that regard as well, though Houston does get more international O&D due to oil industry ties.

Fourth, I suggest suggest you check out reply number 39. The OP in this thread posted hastily and had his facts wrong. UA is significantly larger at DFW than AA is at IAH by seat count. So if the consultants said that AA should be larger at IAH tha UA at DFW, yes they would be wrong.

Fifth, you can take my opinion with a grain of salt, I don't care. I don't think highly of yours either. But you've been given hard facts. How are you going to dismiss those?

[Edited 2013-04-22 05:47:54]

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 06:03:37 and read 4535 times.

 Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 44):No, aside from the fact BA0197 is an AA agent at IAH, go to aa.com and type in DFW to IAH for tomorrow. You get 8 daily M80 departures 7am 9:40am 11:25am 12:30pm 2:45pm 4:25pm 6:15pm 8:50pm

 Quoting 4engines4lnghll (Reply 45):It changes quite a bit. At one point DFW-IAH was down to 5 flights a day.

We have NEVER had less than 6 daily departures to DFW (at least in the last 20 years).

 Quoting 777222LR (Reply 42):Ummm, UA flies to EVERY hub that AA does from IAH. The way you word it, you make it sound as if AA is flying to all of these places from IAH, thus has a larger presence, but in actuality, AA is only flying to IAH from DFW and their other hubs. Now, look at any of those AA hubs listed, and I guarantee you UA flies to them ALL from ALL of their hubs. So the argument makes no sense. UA serves DFW more than AA serves IAH.

Except JFK, so not "ALL".

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 06:50:47 and read 4313 times.

 Quoting BA0197 (Reply 50):We have NEVER had less than 6 daily departures to DFW

I have a family member who works for AA and commuted out of IAH for 23 years and has actually just moved to base. All im saying is that there has been 5 flights a day to Houston at one point. Not for a long time but yes there has  . It fluctuates a lot.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 07:58:24 and read 3943 times.

It's aircraft size and lack of variety, plain and simple.

To be competitive in the market AA has to have frequency but due to the market they also know that F class is necessary. With not a lot of CR7s in the system to move around for that type of flying, they end up flying larger than necessary aircraft. It's the reason why ORD-LGA, DFW-ORD, DFW-IAH are almost entirely S80s.

Virasb Vahidi explained this exact situation when the A319s and E175s were ordered. He actually used ORD-DFW as an example of how UA can right size an aircraft to the market and time of day, AA has little ability to do that so they stick with their smallest mainline aircraft. Once the new aircraft arrive you will notice AA really mixing fleet types on routes.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 10:02:00 and read 3438 times.

 Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):UA: IAH-DFW --- 5x ERJ, 3X CRJ 700, 1x A319 = 9
 Quoting avi8 (Thread starter):AA: DFW-IAH ---- 6x MD80 = 6
 Quoting BA0197 (Reply 17):IAH-DFW: 8 times daily except weekends where there are 7. (S80)

IAH isn't a UA hub - it is a CO hub that UA is working into their network.

Many of the UA flights you mentioned out of DFW are UA flights (i.e. ORD), but the IAH flights are from the CO marketing plan.

And you left out the ESSENTIAL element in the DFW/DAL - IAH/HOU market - WN.

Both AA and UA/CO DFW-IAH flights compete with the WN DAL-HOU flights. Which is 25 B737's per day.

AA decided years ago that a few targeted larger aircraft at certain time windows was better than trying to match some of the WN frequency.

Since the IAH / HOU physical layout is a bit different than DFW / DAL - CO felt that more frequency with some smaller aircraft was a better option.

Neither is right or wrong - if it works for their marketing plans and revenue expectations.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 10:20:46 and read 3343 times.

 Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):One reason. southwest has over 25 daily HOU -DAL Flights. Both AA and UA lose money flying people between Houston and Dallas so both stay relatively small.

Also, don't forget that NK has recently entered in DFW-IAH. Not a huge game changer, but still relevant to mention.

 Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):Second, I note from your profile that you're in Plano, part of the Dallas MSA. You'll forgive me if I take your opinion with a grain of salt the size of a Rubik's Cube as a result.

So, you call someone out for making a personal slam, yet you resort to the same tactic in retaliation?

 Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):You say you hope no one ever hires me as a consultant, yet this thread proves that for some reason, AA feels the need to have more lift to/from IAH than UA does from DFW. Are their consultants wrong too?

Oy.

To settle the seat count situation for ONCE and for ALL, here are the numbers:

AA @ Houston: (week of APR 22 12 - APR 28 12)

IAH: 35,050
HOU: 6,160

Total 41,210

UA in Dallas/Ft. Worth

DFW: 40,062
DAL: 4,164

Total 44,226.

So, to answer your question, UA provides more ASMs into DFW on a weekly basis over AA into IAH, and more ASMs into the North Texas region over Houston.

This obviously makes more sense given 1). UA has more hubs and 2). SCOPE, as mentioned above.

For those interested, here are some more data points on capacity shares (for this week). One thing I find interesting is that both AA and UA keep the market share percentage (relative to each airport in the same MSA) roughly the same.

UA @ DAL: 2.7% of total system capacity
UA @ DFW: 2.7% of total system capacity (interesting!)

AA @ HOU: 4.0% of total system capacity
AA @ IAH: 3.9% of total system capacity (interesting!)

Total Houston: 1,047,649 total seats (IAH + HOU)
Total Dallas: 1,615,688 (DFW + DAL)

AA % of Houston: 41,210/1,047,649 = ~3.9%
UA % of Dallas/Ft. Worth: 44,226/1,615,688 = ~2.7%

So there you have it. UA provides more seats into North Texas, but relative to overall market share, AA has more "lift" in Houston compared to overall ASMs

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 10:51:33 and read 3172 times.

 Quoting JDairCEO (Reply 52):To be competitive in the market AA has to have frequency but due to the market they also know that F class is necessary. With not a lot of CR7s in the system to move around for that type of flying, they end up flying larger than necessary aircraft. It's the reason why ORD-LGA, DFW-ORD, DFW-IAH are almost entirely S80s.

I can confirm that last year (when we had 7 daily departures), we achieved an average load factor of 84.9% IAH-DFW. We were awarded an 8th frequency at the start of this summer season. AA definetly needs the super 80 (if not the 738 on peak services).

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 10:58:05 and read 3126 times.

 Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 53): IAH isn't a UA hub - it is a CO hub that UA is working into their network.

What are you talking about? It's definitely a UA hub

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 11:16:24 and read 3052 times.

 Quoting tommy767 (Reply 56): It's definitely a UA hub

So you are saying that UA dumped all the history, load factors, marketing and frequency information that Continental acquired over the years. They started with a clean sheet and decided how to operate from IAH.

I think not.

The way the original question was framed was that IAH was just like DEN and ORD in that UA developed their frequency, aircraft types and marketing for the IAH hub internally.

The UA operation at IAH today still runs largely on the CO business plan and history. It is evolving, but it is going to be a long time before IAH is a pure UA hub.

We must always remember how much history and the past influences today's operations.

[Edited 2013-04-22 11:17:10]

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 11:35:52 and read 3010 times.

BOS is a crew base for PMUA f/as only. No pilots or PMCO

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 11:43:05 and read 3008 times.

 Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 57):So you are saying that UA dumped all the history, load factors, marketing and frequency information that Continental acquired over the years. They started with a clean sheet and decided how to operate from IAH. I think not.

Let it go. CO is gone.

Well you are clearly living in denial because the airport is without a doubt a United hub. And as a matter of fact, it's looking a lot like a PMUA hub because last time I was there it was filled with PMUA 757 and A320 instead of E145s like CO did back in the day.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 11:50:53 and read 2972 times.

 Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):Should the thread title be "Why is AA at IAH so small compared to UA at DFW" Confusing

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 11:53:33 and read 2961 times.

True, but I have noticed that there are more sCO aircraft at IAH than sUA aircraft.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 21:13:17 and read 2651 times.

 Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 61):True, but I have noticed that there are more sCO aircraft at IAH than sUA aircraft.

And ORD still has more PMUA Airbii and PW-powered 757s than PMCO equipment. Both of these are to be expected as the full integration is still ongoing - as mentioned above, none of the hubs will become full-on "new UA" for a few more years. In the interim, they will still retain a bit of their old PM character.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-22 23:25:35 and read 2563 times.

 Quoting commavia (Reply 48):Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47): First off, the personal slam was uncalled for. No need to be petty and insulting. As opposed to your comments about an entire metro area.

How was saying that the Houston area was larger and had a larger economy than the Dallas area petty or insulting? Or personal, for that matter? Geez..

 Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 54):Your information is NOT substantiated. To settle the seat count situation for ONCE and for ALL, here are the numbers: AA @ Houston: (week of APR 22 12 - APR 28 12) IAH: 35,050 HOU: 6,160 Total 41,210 UA in Dallas/Ft. Worth DFW: 40,062 DAL: 4,164 Total 44,226. So, to answer your question, UA provides more ASMs into DFW on a weekly basis over AA into IAH, and more ASMs into the North Texas region over Houston. This obviously makes more sense given 1). UA has more hubs and 2). SCOPE, as mentioned above.

Fair enough, as I didn't have those numbers at hand. More importantly, if you read my original statement I was offering up size and economic stature as a potential reason why AA may have offered more lift to/from IAH than UA did to/from DFW, which the OP maintained was the case.

I never asserted that was the case but merely offered a reason why that may be the case (if it were actually so, and appears not to be) since that's what the OP was asking.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-23 05:55:08 and read 2452 times.

 Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 63):

And you ignored all the evidence that shows that Houston and DFW have almost identical sized economies on every level.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-23 07:00:20 and read 2399 times.

 Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 57):The UA operation at IAH today still runs largely on the CO business plan and history. It is evolving, but it is going to be a long time before IAH is a pure UA hub.

I see what you're saying. IAH was the primary east-west and Latin America hub for Continental, while at United it takes a role of less importance as an east-west domestic hub with DEN and ORD arguably better positioned to capture most traffic flows. The 'outrage' over the decision of HAS to allow WN international flights out of HOU was simply whitewash over the fact that IAH was necessarily going to be downsized somewhat in view of its evolving role in the network.

With that said, it's still a well-positioned hub for a booming, highly profitable region (Latin America) and has a massive, very international local market with a healthy, expanding industry driving a substantial part of the O&D business market.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-23 08:51:39 and read 2303 times.

I was mainly focused on the IAH-DFW and IAH-DAL traffic. The aircraft used, schedule times, number of seats - those are all legacy decisions based on the CO usage of the route(s).

Yes, UA has made some changes at IAH, and will in the future. Houston is an excellent primary O&D market - with its population being the 10th largest MSA in the US - over 6 million, compared to Denver having a little over 3 million. It is also an excellent location for a Point-Point distribution hub for regional market.

But geographically, it is poorly placed as a thru connector hub compared to DEN, ORD, or DFW.

I really don't care that CO is gone. I'm a bit disappointed that the UA name survived, but I understand the marketing reasons to use United for the non-US customer base.

Frankly, I think UA could do a lot with IAH and South America, though there isn't really a strong local South America market like MIA or even the Southern California area. (That's why DFW is secondary to MIA on the AA South America business.)

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-23 12:08:50 and read 2194 times.

 Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 64):Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 63): And you ignored all the evidence that shows that Houston and DFW have almost identical sized economies on every level.

More whining from small-town boy. That can be ignored.

The evidence still shows Houston's economy is larger.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-23 12:23:09 and read 2170 times.

I'm not getting in this Houston vs Dallas debate, but just a question for you guys: What does population of Fortune 500 companies have to do with airline hubs/ state of airports. Explain DEN, ATL and SLT.

Wrong argument for the wrong reasons. Please stop this mindless banter.

There are too many variables to properly asses the question.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-23 12:56:36 and read 2116 times.

 Quoting BA0197 (Reply 68):There are too many variables to properly asses the question.

Thats the whole point Ive been trying to make from the get go. You cant take one factor and make an assumption (which some people cant seem to grasp). There are many aspects to economic relevance.

 Quoting BA0197 (Reply 68):What does population of Fortune 500 companies have to do with airline hubs/ state of airports. Explain DEN, ATL and SLT.

By itself, nothing. What matters is the total size of the economies and where the economy in question has ties to. If you take Houston and DFW (since those are the places in question), you have two economies that are virtually identical in size. The difference is that Houston's economy is more one-sided but more international. Dallas and DFW's economy is much more diverse, but its more domestically tied.

[Edited 2013-04-23 12:58:22]

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-23 14:59:09 and read 2014 times.

 Quoting BA0197 (Reply 68):I'm not getting in this Houston vs Dallas debate, but just a question for you guys: What does population of Fortune 500 companies have to do with airline hubs/ state of airports. Explain DEN, ATL and SLT. Wrong argument for the wrong reasons. Please stop this mindless banter.

As I said earlier, it's not a debate; I merely offered up the fact that Houston's economy is larger and that they have more Fortune 500 companies as one possible, potential reason for the (apparently erroneous) difference in AA @ IAH lift vs UA @ DFW lift. LAXdude is the one making this an exercise of Dallas vs. Houston penis envy.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-23 16:53:20 and read 1939 times.

 Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 67):More whining from small-town boy.

"Small town boy" despite the fact that DFW metro is larger than Houston metro. So sad that some see the need to devolve these discussions into this kind of stuff with such unnecessarily sarcastic (and categorically false) rhetoric.

Again - no need to get into any kind of a debate. Both markets are huge and growing, and each market's respective hub carrier has a relatively strong presence in the other market as a result of how large both are.

Topic: RE: Why Is UA At DFW So Small Compared To AA At IAH?
Posted 2013-04-23 18:58:11 and read 1822 times.

Not sure where Houston's economy being one sided comes from? Oil and gas, Medical, port of Houston?

Anyways, both are large markets. True. but that does not further the discussion.

Based on Gross Domestic Product per capita and employment change Houston is the highest ranked economy in the US according to Brookings.
http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/global-metro-monitor-3

To put it another way Houston probably has the highest standard of living in the US if not the world among major metros.

[Edited 2013-04-23 19:00:35]

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