Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5739980/

Topic: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Querosene
Posted 2013-04-16 11:54:09 and read 21639 times.

Aeromexico 767-200 XA-TOJ had a tailstrike at MAD.
Two crew members are hospitalized with minor injuries.

Picture:

https://twitter.com/PabloReinah/status/324217076749312000/photo/1

More info (only in spanish):

http://www.excelsior.com.mx/global/2013/04/16/894218

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: summa767
Posted 2013-04-16 12:17:17 and read 21591 times.

That looks like a nasty scrape. 762s are not particularly long, which one would think would make such an occurrence very unlikely.
Let's wait to hear the cause. A botched up operation or a freak gust of wind..

It is also reported that an Air Europa A330 bound for CCS punctured a nose tyre as a result of debris on the runway from the AM tail strike. It had to circle around MAD before landing back at base.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: clydenairways
Posted 2013-04-16 12:37:14 and read 21527 times.

Ouch! That looks fairly nasty... It will be interesting to hear what caused this. As you say the -200 is probably not particularly prone to tailstrikes.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: gabo787
Posted 2013-04-16 13:22:51 and read 21367 times.

Ouch!! That is a nasty tailstrike.
Considering that this 762 is almost 23 years old do you think it will be repaired or scraped?

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: MayaviaERJ190
Posted 2013-04-16 14:02:32 and read 21093 times.

Ouch! This bird is in need of a serious stay at the hospital.

AeroMexico with one less 767, is now in dire straits awaiting FAA, DGAC and B, as by this time, plans called for the substitution of 767s for 787s to have been well on its way.

767s in the fleet have now to be administered like if it was with a drop counter, as they stretched their use a lot by opening the long awaited slot at Heathrow last December.

If this plane is to be repaired, I suggest they also re-do its registration. XA-TOJ doesn't help at all... and please do not choose XA-MAJ. (Like going from XA-SHT to XA-FKD in Spanish).

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-04-16 14:08:22 and read 21023 times.

Quoting Querosene (Thread starter):
Picture:

https://twitter.com/PabloReinah/status/324217076749312000/photo/1

Too bad! That one won't just buff out! 

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Aesma
Posted 2013-04-16 14:32:41 and read 20918 times.

Look at that door, the skin has been ripped off !

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: AR385
Posted 2013-04-16 15:02:35 and read 20816 times.

Considering the age of the aircraft, and the plans AM had for the 787s, that plane is a WO.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: na
Posted 2013-04-16 15:07:21 and read 20761 times.

Quoting gabo787 (Reply 3):
Considering that this 762 is almost 23 years old do you think it will be repaired or scraped?
Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
Considering the age of the aircraft, and the plans AM had for the 787s, that plane is a WO.

I bet its a write-off. There is no other option than scrapping this old bird. Its short of retirement and hardly a desirable type these days.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-04-16 15:10:34 and read 20729 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
Considering the age of the aircraft, and the plans AM had for the 787s, that plane is a WO.

Keep in mind that decision is for the insurer to make. If somehow it's cheaper to fix it than to give them insured value, it'll be fixed.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-04-16 15:14:09 and read 20693 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
Considering the age of the aircraft, and the plans AM had for the 787s, that plane is a WO.

Knowing AM, they will put some duct tape, crazy glue, and call it a day...

Then again they are going to receive their 787 any day now....   

TRB

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: na
Posted 2013-04-16 15:27:39 and read 20601 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Keep in mind that decision is for the insurer to make. If somehow it's cheaper to fix it than to give them insured value, it'll be fixed.

Sure, but whats a clapped-out 20 year plus 762 worth these days? A million dollars maybe, or less? I bet no insurer will have this repaired.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: tp1040
Posted 2013-04-16 16:22:25 and read 20297 times.

Well, if you going to have a tail strike, might as well do it right. That is nasty looking. I don't think it will buff out.

If that bird doesn't have bulkhead damage, it will be amazing.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2013-04-16 17:22:04 and read 20058 times.

Wow that is a nasty strike... and unusual. As Summa767 wrote, these occurrences are rare in short, stubby aircraft like the 762.

At least the incident happened to an old 762ER and not a 77E, which is the aircraft type that AM usually sends to MAD. Losing a 77E, albeit temporarily, would cause serious problems to AM.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Alnicocunife
Posted 2013-04-16 18:41:10 and read 19833 times.

Is it owned, leased or encumbered with debt? They may have to fix it, it depends of the arrangement. It would be out of service for at least a month. if there is nothing else to cover the flights spending $250-$500K to repair is worth it. Flying the aircraft for 18 months after repair is worth at least $250-$500K.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: LatinPlane
Posted 2013-04-16 19:10:30 and read 19731 times.

Quoting Alnicocunife (Reply 14):
Is it owned, leased or encumbered with debt?

It's lease under contract from SAS since 1999. Interestingly, I think this was one of the birds that was to be returned to the lessor this Summer, but its contract was extended until early next year to cover for delays with the three 787s that AM is supposed to be receiving this year.

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Aeromexico

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: AF185
Posted 2013-04-16 21:31:21 and read 18198 times.

Wondering what feeling passengers must experience on-board..
Has anyone here ever experienced a tail strike? Is it very rough for passengers?

Here they say it is 2 crew members who are injured. I would guess they are the ones sitting at the rear during take off?

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-04-16 23:01:40 and read 17414 times.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 1):
That looks like a nasty scrape. 762s are not particularly long, which one would think would make such an occurrence very unlikely.

There are two other, longer versions of the 767 FYI, the longest of which the -400 is 201 feet 4 inches long and requires one to be quite careful to avoid a tailstrike, as does the -300.


Does anyone know if this occurred on take off or landing ? the damage is as bad as I've seen and several reasons come to mind.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-04-16 23:15:19 and read 17295 times.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 12):
If that bird doesn't have bulkhead damage, it will be amazing.

agreed.

Quoting Querosene (Thread starter):

whoooooaaaaa I was expecting to see a nice little tail strike. That is one of the better ones i have ever seen. APU doors are just about gone.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: LatinPlane
Posted 2013-04-16 23:22:09 and read 17232 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):

Does anyone know if this occurred on take off or landing ? the damage is as bad as I've seen and several reasons come to mind.

The article in Spanish states that the strike on the runway occurred during take off and this suggest the most likely cause to be that the aircraft was overweight for take off. Once airborne the pilots noticed that aircraft wasn't pressurizing and thus decided to turn around and head back to MAD. Meanwhile an Air Europa A330 taking off bound to CCS following this 767 also punctured its front tires on take off due to scattered debris leftover by this 767, which also caused this flight to return to MAD.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-04-16 23:26:13 and read 17167 times.

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 19):

The article in Spanish states that the strike on the runway occurred during take off and this suggest the most likely cause to be that the aircraft was overweight for take off. Once airborne the pilots noticed that aircraft wasn't pressurizing and thus decided to turn around and head back to MAD. Meanwhile an Air Europa A330 taking off bound to CCS following this 767 also punctured its front tires on take off due to scattered debris leftover by this 767, which also caused this flight to return to MAD.

Thank you LP, there has to be more to this than just an overweight take off. To hit the tail on a 762 is almost unprecedented and I hope what really happened is made available soon.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: zschocheimages
Posted 2013-04-17 00:58:33 and read 16403 times.

There is really only one way to have a tailstrike on takeoff - rotate too quickly. As a heavy pilot myself, I always count slowly to four in my head while rotating. I make sure I'm not at my desired takeoff pitch until I get to four. Likely the pilot rotated too quickly for whatever reason and struck the tail as a result. Even if she is an old bird, it's sad to see her like that.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: BreninTW
Posted 2013-04-17 01:02:07 and read 16361 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 13):
At least the incident happened to an old 762ER and not a 77E, which is the aircraft type that AM usually sends to MAD. Losing a 77E

This is an honest question: Was the aircraft a last-minute swap? If so, is it possible that the MAD handling agents were expecting a 77E and thus over-loaded the aircraft or loaded it such that the CoG was too far back?

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Max Q
Posted 2013-04-17 01:25:13 and read 16157 times.

Quoting zschocheimages (Reply 21):
There is really only one way to have a tailstrike on takeoff - rotate too quickly. As a heavy pilot myself, I always count slowly to four in my head while rotating. I make sure I'm not at my desired takeoff pitch until I get to four. Likely the pilot rotated too quickly for whatever reason and struck the tail as a result. Even if she is an old bird, it's sad to see her like that.

Not really true, if they were using incorrect V Speeds (for too low a weight) a normal rotation rate at too slow a speed will hit the tail.


Many possible reasons here:


Overweight


Incorrect Stab Trim, nose low or high.


Incorrect Vspeeds.


Incorrect thrust setting.


Windshear.


Too rapid a rotation.



It's just too early to tell.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: na
Posted 2013-04-17 01:37:53 and read 16056 times.

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 22):
This is an honest question: Was the aircraft a last-minute swap? If so, is it possible that the MAD handling agents were expecting a 77E and thus over-loaded the aircraft or loaded it such that the CoG was too far back?

I do not think that the agents would be so stupid not to notice...

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: clydenairways
Posted 2013-04-17 01:43:30 and read 16793 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 23):
Not really true, if they were using incorrect V Speeds (for too low a weight) a normal rotation rate at too slow a speed will hit the tail.


Many possible reasons here:


Overweight


Incorrect Stab Trim, nose low or high.


Incorrect Vspeeds.


Incorrect thrust setting.


Windshear.


Too rapid a rotation.



It's just too early to tell.

Yep it could be any of those. I'd also add to your list:

Incorrect T/O flap setting

Actual loading distribution different to loading plan.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Dogbreath
Posted 2013-04-17 01:45:53 and read 16736 times.

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 22):
This is an honest question: Was the aircraft a last-minute swap? If so, is it possible that the MAD handling agents were expecting a 77E and thus over-loaded the aircraft or loaded it such that the CoG was too far back?

I don't think that is very likely. And if so, then all concerned would have no place being anywhere near aviation. Not read about any factual evidence of CoG or Gross weight issues with this aircraft.

Quoting zschocheimages (Reply 21):
There is really only one way to have a tailstrike on takeoff - rotate too quickly.

I tend to agree here. Or the PF may have trimmed the elevator nose-up during the rotation. A big NO-NO on my flightdeck!

Whilst a tailstrike can happen to any of us, the aircraft is designed to prevent a catastrophic failure of the fuselage and tail section. There is a Tailstrike Checklist in the QRH to prevent further damage and guidance to land at the nearest suitable airfield. My shock and dismay about this whole episode is what were the Madrid Air Traffic Controllers doing during this incident. A tail scrape of the magnitude that occurred to this B767 would have been pretty damn obvious to the Tower Controller. So did he/she see this or not? If so, then why wasn't the runway closed for an inspection. If not, then they're not monitoring the aircraft they have on their runway. Whatever happened, they allowed an A330 to depart from a contaminated runway and suffer damage. This could easily have been a disaster and everyone is fortunate that only the nose wheels were damaged. The Air France Concorde comes to mind.

Having operated in and out of Madrid for a while now, my disgust with the professionalism of Spanish ATC and in particular Madrid is at about boiling point. I can't understand why EASA and AENA won't get of their backsides and sort this mess out.

Rant over.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: btblue
Posted 2013-04-17 02:24:15 and read 16891 times.

Oh my, that looks like a very nasty tail scrape. Must have been dragging that thing along the ground for a good few seconds and looking at the tail, it's been given a fair old bump and then a good old drag. Looks like over rotation or a gust of wind.

Sure that's a W/O. How sad.

An interesting article from Boeing:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...rticles/qtr_1_07/article_02_1.html

[Edited 2013-04-17 02:26:35]

[Edited 2013-04-17 02:27:21]

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: TheAviator380
Posted 2013-04-17 02:30:01 and read 16784 times.

Does any one know about any runway damage result of this nasty tail strike? could possible isn't it?

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: bennett123
Posted 2013-04-17 02:47:34 and read 16757 times.

Reply 17

"Once airborne the pilots noticed that aircraft wasn't pressurizing".

Combined with everything else, this sounds as if the Rear Pressure Bulkhead has been punctured.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: shufflemoomin
Posted 2013-04-17 03:38:29 and read 16254 times.

The lack of pressurisation was their warning? Seriously? They didn't notice an impact severe enough to cause this damage and cause injuries in the cabin?

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: YWG747
Posted 2013-04-17 04:48:10 and read 15423 times.

That is one heck of a skid mark

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-04-17 05:45:27 and read 14707 times.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 30):
The lack of pressurisation was their warning? Seriously? They didn't notice an impact severe enough to cause this damage and cause injuries in the cabin?

I bet the reports a factually wrong, they had injured in the Aircraft and came back, and in the mean time they noticed the leak on the bulkhead... I cant imagine ANYONE trying to fly for 11 hours with 2 injured people onboard.

That pilot, really wanted to carve his initials on the tarmac!!! or as we say in México:

"En la penca de un maguey...grabe tu nombreeee"

Translation: In a tree I carved your name !!!

TRB

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-04-17 06:43:33 and read 13934 times.

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 22):
This is an honest question: Was the aircraft a last-minute swap? If so, is it possible that the MAD handling agents were expecting a 77E and thus over-loaded the aircraft or loaded it such that the CoG was too far back?

The Handling agent in Madrid should know they were getting a 767 since they had 12 hours notice. Its not like they were told it was a 777 and got a surprise when a 767 appeared at Barajas airport.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: AM744
Posted 2013-04-17 06:59:24 and read 13684 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 23):

It's just too early to tell.

Speaking of which. How are these incidents investigated? Looks pretty serious to me.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 30):
The lack of pressurisation was their warning? Seriously? They didn't notice an impact severe enough to cause this damage and cause injuries in the cabin?

I don't think that was the case. Sounds like lousy journalism to me.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-04-17 07:01:26 and read 13654 times.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 25):
Actual loading distribution different to loading plan.

I thought about that too, but it didn't fit in well with the idea that the pilots didn't notice the tail strike.

If they had an aft of limits CG that itself should have been noticeable, no?

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: clydenairways
Posted 2013-04-17 07:19:48 and read 13374 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 35):

I thought about that too, but it didn't fit in well with the idea that the pilots didn't notice the tail strike.

If they had an aft of limits CG that itself should have been noticeable, no?

True, but at the moment anyway i'm not buying the report that a Tail strike of the magnitude to do this amount of damage was undetected by the crew until they noticed the aircraft wasn't pressurising.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: summa767
Posted 2013-04-17 07:27:25 and read 13342 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 32):
I bet the reports a factually wrong, they had injured in the Aircraft and came back, and in the mean time they noticed the leak on the bulkhead..

In a Televisa report, I heard a passenger described what happened. In his words: A very very hard impact, then normal flight until the oxygen masks dropped passing 10.000 feet. A pilot made an announcement about wearing the masks.

It will be good to know the communications with MAD ATC to see at what point there was an indication of the intention to hold and return.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Braniff747SP
Posted 2013-04-17 07:31:43 and read 13314 times.

Another article (only in Spanish) with a different image:

http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/04/16/madrid/1366138187_611595.html

Not pretty... Did some serious damage.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: r2rho
Posted 2013-04-17 07:34:47 and read 13219 times.

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 26):
A tail scrape of the magnitude that occurred to this B767 would have been pretty damn obvious to the Tower Controller. So did he/she see this or not? If so, then why wasn't the runway closed for an inspection. If not, then they're not monitoring the aircraft they have on their runway. Whatever happened, they allowed an A330 to depart from a contaminated runway and suffer damage. This could easily have been a disaster and everyone is fortunate that only the nose wheels were damaged. The Air France Concorde comes to mind.

To me that is one of the main concerns, the following A330... the tailstrike "can happen", ok. But leaving debris behind for the next aicraft...
However, if the aircraft was taking off on one of the 36's, I assume any debris could not be seen from the tower, as the rotation would happen at the farther end of the runway, within line of sight but too far to recognize any small object. And it seems that the Aeromexico was not aware of the tailstrike until later (wasn't there a recent LH tailstrike like that as well?), so that ATC was not notified about it, and gave takeoff clearance to the next aircraft.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 37):
In a Televisa report, I heard a passenger described what happened. In his words: A very very hard impact, then normal flight until the oxygen masks dropped passing 10.000 feet. A pilot made an announcement about wearing the masks.

It will be good to know the communications with MAD ATC to see at what point there was an indication of the intention to hold and return.

If that is so, then a) the crew really did not seem to notice and continued with climb or b) the crew noticed, told ATC, were given a holding pattern above 10000ft, upon which the masks deployed, indicating damage to the bulkhead. We'll have to know more about the comunications that were going on.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: AM744
Posted 2013-04-17 08:15:09 and read 12625 times.

Quoting na (Reply 11):
Sure, but whats a clapped-out 20 year plus 762 worth these days? A million dollars maybe, or less? I bet no insurer will have this repaired.

Plus, if there was indeed damage to the bulkhead, there would be some risk associated with a potential repair, wouldn't it? Wasn't the JAL 747 crash in the 80s caused by a faulty bulkhead repair?

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2013-04-17 08:25:22 and read 12570 times.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 23):
Not really true, if they were using incorrect V Speeds (for too low a weight) a normal rotation rate at too slow a speed will hit the tail.


Many possible reasons here:


Overweight


Incorrect Stab Trim, nose low or high.


Incorrect Vspeeds.


Incorrect thrust setting.


Windshear.


Too rapid a rotation.



It's just too early to tell.

  

It's also worth noting that the "counting to 4" on rotation that one person mentioned roughly approximates to a 3 degree per second rate of rotation to a standard takeoff pitch attitude, which is the standard recommendation for every transport category aircraft I've flown. Tailstrike angle is probably somewhere in the 14-15 degree range, assuming the mains are still planted on the ground.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: SR117
Posted 2013-04-17 08:30:55 and read 12479 times.

Definitely a nasty strike. Not surprising that you had people hurt and bulkhead damage.

Here's another view I haven't seen posted:

Ouch...

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2013-04-17 08:48:45 and read 12136 times.

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 22):
This is an honest question: Was the aircraft a last-minute swap?

No, it wasn't a last-minute swap. As a matter of fact, Aeroméxico has been deploying the 767 along with the 777 to MAD for a couple of weeks now.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: henpol747
Posted 2013-04-17 09:29:07 and read 11585 times.

Sorry if this is a stupid question but:

If the pilot DID rotate too quickly and is at fault here, what happens next? a simple reprimand? a more serious "punishment"?

Thank you for your inputs .....

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: ghost77
Posted 2013-04-17 09:42:01 and read 11485 times.

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 22):
This is an honest question: Was the aircraft a last-minute swap? If so, is it possible that the MAD handling agents were expecting a 77E and thus over-loaded the aircraft or loaded it such that the CoG was too far back?
Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 43):
No, it wasn't a last-minute swap. As a matter of fact, Aeroméxico has been deploying the 767 along with the 777 to MAD for a couple of weeks now.

It's just been 2 weeks.

Why?

A grounded 777 in CDG under MX.

What's a real shame is that AM was gaining market share in the MEX-MAD and shit like this happen! The media is doing a lot of noise. So bad, so sad, but the worse is that AM has no 767. Hope for once and for all bring 2 more 767s for the further 787 delays (which I have confirmed information and MAYBE it won't even be delivered this year) and to have enough 767 and a spare aircraft and 2 more 767 will give them the chance to fly more MEX-SCL and CUN-GRU which is doing great and it's been flown with 737's.

Here XA-TOJ in happy days:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ricardo Morales - Aviation Photography of Mexico



I have the sequence of this picture, if possible I'll later upload few seconds before:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ricardo Morales - Aviation Photography of Mexico



It was a little close, I remember that if it had pulled more it might have been XA-TNS tail striking in the news a few years ago.

g77

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: ghost77
Posted 2013-04-17 09:42:57 and read 11433 times.

And another close one while landing also few years ago:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ricardo Morales - Aviation Photography of Mexico



g77

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: hivue
Posted 2013-04-17 11:29:53 and read 9714 times.

Quoting AM744 (Reply 34):
The lack of pressurisation was their warning? Seriously? They didn't notice an impact severe enough to cause this damage and cause injuries in the cabin?


I don't think that was the case. Sounds like lousy journalism to me.
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 36):
True, but at the moment anyway i'm not buying the report that a Tail strike of the magnitude to do this amount of damage was undetected by the crew until they noticed the aircraft wasn't pressurising.
Quoting summa767 (Reply 37):
In his words: A very very hard impact, then normal flight until the oxygen masks dropped passing 10.000 feet. A pilot made an announcement about wearing the masks.

So even if they missed the crunching tail did no one notice the injured crew members? Somehting is very strange here.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: PW100
Posted 2013-04-17 11:45:08 and read 9475 times.

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 26):
My shock and dismay about this whole episode is what were the Madrid Air Traffic Controllers doing during this incident. A tail scrape of the magnitude that occurred to this B767 would have been pretty damn obvious to the Tower Controller. . . The Air France Concorde comes to mind. . . .Having operated in and out of Madrid for a while now, my disgust with the professionalism of Spanish ATC and in particular Madrid is at about boiling point. I can't understand why EASA and AENA won't get of their backsides and sort this mess out

I think you are way overreacting without having any facts AT ALL.

ATC will not necessarily look at each aircraft during rotation. They do have many things to worry about, and many responsibilities. However visual check confirmation that none of the 700 daily departures experiences a tail strike is definitely not one of them.

First, it is up to the cockpit crew of the departing aircraft to report they had a problem. Or possibly the next departure if they are ready and lined up - if they are still in opposite direction on the taxiway taxiing down to the runway, obviously they will have no visual contact with the previous departure.

It is entirely possible, and even likely that ATC will give take-off clearance if they were not informed on the tailstrike. Again, nobody in the tower will be sanctioned for not seeing the tailstrike. It is not part of their responsibilities.

Visual confirmation by ATC of a tailstrike is not the main safety net; it is considered a bonus, but not part of their duties.

Rgds,
PW100

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: clydenairways
Posted 2013-04-18 02:19:40 and read 8308 times.

Some more updates on AV herald with a couple of eyewitness reports added.

http://avherald.com/h?article=460db38a&opt=0

One of these seems to suggest an early rotation which could narrow down the list of possible reasons a bit.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 48):
Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 26):
My shock and dismay about this whole episode is what were the Madrid Air Traffic Controllers doing during this incident. A tail scrape of the magnitude that occurred to this B767 would have been pretty damn obvious to the Tower Controller. . . The Air France Concorde comes to mind. . . .Having operated in and out of Madrid for a while now, my disgust with the professionalism of Spanish ATC and in particular Madrid is at about boiling point. I can't understand why EASA and AENA won't get of their backsides and sort this mess out

I think you are way overreacting without having any facts AT ALL.

ATC will not necessarily look at each aircraft during rotation. They do have many things to worry about, and many responsibilities. However visual check confirmation that none of the 700 daily departures experiences a tail strike is definitely not one of them.

First, it is up to the cockpit crew of the departing aircraft to report they had a problem. Or possibly the next departure if they are ready and lined up - if they are still in opposite direction on the taxiway taxiing down to the runway, obviously they will have no visual contact with the previous departure.

It is entirely possible, and even likely that ATC will give take-off clearance if they were not informed on the tailstrike. Again, nobody in the tower will be sanctioned for not seeing the tailstrike. It is not part of their responsibilities.

Visual confirmation by ATC of a tailstrike is not the main safety net; it is considered a bonus, but not part of their duties.

Yeah nice little rant by someone jumping to conclusions without having the facts. It's now been established that the rotation point is 4km from the tower view so you wouldn't be able to see detail like a tail striking off the ground. They saw the 767 climbing away and nothing was reported from the crew so they assumed a normal T/O.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Dogbreath
Posted 2013-04-18 03:59:47 and read 8116 times.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 49):
It's now been established that the rotation point is 4km from the tower view so you wouldn't be able to see detail like a tail striking off the ground.

Ever heard of binoculars??

I'm not, nor have I ever been an Air Traffic Controller, but during my military days, spent quite a bit of time hanging out with my ATC mates in the control tower, and in every case the tower controller had his/her eyes on the departing/arriving traffic from take off roll to airborne and vice versa. Funnily enough they used binoculars from time to time. But hey!! Admittedly I've never been in a Spanish tower, so can't comment on their procedures.


Quoting PW100 (Reply 48):
ATC will not necessarily look at each aircraft during rotation. They do have many things to worry about, and many responsibilities. However visual check confirmation that none of the 700 daily departures experiences a tail strike is definitely not one of them.

Can you confirm that with fact?

Whether we like it or not, the facts are that a departing aircraft suffered a tailstrike and fragged the runway. According to reliable sources several aircraft were then cleared to depart from the same runway. Unfortunately one of those aircraft then suffered nosewheel damage caused by the contaminated runway state. Is this acceptable in this day and age? In my opinion NO not ever.

[Edited 2013-04-18 04:15:10]

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-04-18 04:09:15 and read 8078 times.

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 50):
I'm not, nor have I ever been an Air Traffic Controller, but during my military days, spent quite a bit of time hanging out with my ATC mates in the control tower, and in every case the tower controller had his/her eyes on the departing/arriving traffic from take off roll to airborne and vice versa. Funnily enough they used binoculars from time to time. But hey!! Admittedly I've never been in a Spanish tower, so can't comment on their procedures.

To be fair, I've been in both NATS and RAF towers in the UK, and the procedures in this area do seem to be different. I can't say with any certainty if there are, indeed, different requirements. BUT I have seen RAF controllers watching everything as you describe (yes, with binoculars if necessary) whereas NATS [i.e. civilian] don't. Indeed it appeared to me that NATS controllers won't necessarily even be looking at the runway once they've issued clearance, as they might well have to play with strips etc.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Dogbreath
Posted 2013-04-18 04:26:24 and read 8099 times.

Thanks RyanairGuru. I've been informed by a mate that some of the major airfields have a ground based radar that scans the runways for debris. Do they have such a device in Madrid? If so was it being used?

For those who've never seen binoculars in use before.

www.airliners.net/uf/78503/thumbs/phpKGM4SA.png" width="100" height="63" border="0"/>

Big version: Width: 1280 Height: 800 File size: 823kb
Big version: Width: 1280 Height: 800 File size: 823kb


[Edited 2013-04-18 05:27:41]

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-04-18 06:21:42 and read 7902 times.

Well I did not want to jump for conclusions but there are some facts emerging, PX on that plane:

All of them they were kept out of the loop, meaning there was no announcement from the crew as what was going on. One FA sufered a neck injury due to the strike, the other had a nervous breakdown. (those were the 2 admisions to hospitals in MAD).
There was calm on board but the plane kept going and everyone was nervous, after they passed 10000 feet, the oxigen mask deployed and the 767 headed back to MAD, some pax crying and a very tense atmosphere in the plane and a weird smell. FA running around with oxygen masks and tanks, but ZERO INFO to pax.

They Landed and PAX were cursing the Crew, some were taking pictures of the damage and one noticed extensive damage to the left main landing gear.

I my opinion, the whole ordeal was handle unprofessionally by the crew, and MAD tower must get someone to learn how to use binoculars or change procedures about runway debris.

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/917513.html

Just look at the damage!!! holy cow!

TRB

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: clydenairways
Posted 2013-04-18 07:17:10 and read 7755 times.

Quoting Dogbreath (Reply 50):

Ever heard of binoculars??

I'm not, nor have I ever been an Air Traffic Controller, but during my military days, spent quite a bit of time hanging out with my ATC mates in the control tower, and in every case the tower controller had his/her eyes on the departing/arriving traffic from take off roll to airborne and vice versa. Funnily enough they used binoculars from time to time. But hey!! Admittedly I've never been in a Spanish tower, so can't comment on their procedures.

I'm sure they have binoculars but i've not seen any busy civilian airport where the entire take-off roll, rotation and initial climb out of each movement is observed in it's entirety by ATC personnel.

The deficiencies of ATC in Madrid are well discussed but i fail to see any of this applying to this incident given the facts available so far.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: summa767
Posted 2013-04-18 07:28:53 and read 7710 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 53):
I my opinion, the whole ordeal was handle unprofessionally by the crew, and MAD tower must get someone to learn how to use binoculars or change procedures about runway debris.

There is certainly a question as to how the crew managed the situation and in particular with communicating what was going on. If that lack of communication prevented the runway inspection and so caused the Air Europa incident it is serious in itself. After reading the passenger accounts, one by a passenger who claims that he was sitting in the first row, of a loud impact on take off, it cannot be that the crew did not realise there was a tail strike.
If they did intend to go on to cross the pond hoping for the best and only stopped in their tracks by the de-pressurisation, it would be very worrying indeed.

On the MAD ATC, I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to follow with binoculars every take off. The tower is very far away and even with binoculars in rainy or foggy days, any smoke from a tail strike would not be seen.
It is crews that have to report any debris problems that they encounter.
There is still a question on whether there was a delay in getting the runway checked after an Air Europa crew (not the one of the incident) reported seeing objects on it. All of that will have to be investigated.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: AR385
Posted 2013-04-18 07:59:01 and read 7614 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 53):
I my opinion, the whole ordeal was handle unprofessionally by the crew,

So far the only basis you have to say that, are statements from passengers and maybe a hysterical FA. So far you have no idea how complicated the situation was for the cockpit crew.

1) Maybe they had no time to communicate with the passengers
2) Maybe the PA system was disabled, as the impact with the runway if we are to believe the passengers, was very hard.

Just two plausible scenarios I´m throwing out there.

I´m not saying you are wrong. Maybe they WERE unprofessonal. I´m just saying it´s too early to say that.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: AM744
Posted 2013-04-18 08:09:22 and read 7592 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 53):
I my opinion, the whole ordeal was handle unprofessionally by the crew,

I'm extremely worried and upset by this. Would the unions have something to do with this? As in 'save yourselves and we'll deal with it later'. By all accounts, the crew left the passengers on their own in the DC-9 accident in MTY that overran the runway and most tragically in a DC-9 that caught fire after landing in CUU in the 80s. There's a pattern here. Sad.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: EddieDude
Posted 2013-04-18 08:18:53 and read 7553 times.

How does an incident that happened in 1980-something under a completely different ownership and management (and likely different union leadership too) and a situation that took place in 2013 where facts have not been yet ascertained and liabilities have not been established make a pattern?

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: bennett123
Posted 2013-04-18 08:31:43 and read 7523 times.

IMO, any failure to report this incident lies on the flight deck.

Surely they knew that a tail strike had taken place.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-04-18 08:47:04 and read 7506 times.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 59):
IMO, any failure to report this incident lies on the flight deck.

Surely they knew that a tail strike had taken place.

That is MY POINT !!!
Of course the Captain and the F/O are complete morons (and I know quite a few of them and consider them good friends and great pilots), in this situation MAD tower doesnt have to look for tail strikes on every flight, but the crew reported the problem to tower??? I bet my left nut they did not because if that was the case MAD tower would have checked the runway and also used binoculars to check the AM002 .

I can be certain the silence for the cockpit is a liability in this case, I have been to 2 emergency landings and both were handled by the crew informing us about the situation the emergency landing procedures, positions, removing sharp objects and such. Even they explained the F/O would open a panel in the floor to see if the gear was down, so we would not freak out of a guy with a wrench popping up the floor !!! My point is that the more info and reasurance the PAX have the better, if you see as a PAX a FA loosing its marbles it only adds to the fear and confusion.

The PAX reporting were on rows 1 and 2 and if they heard the strike, it was heard everywhere....

Sad thing because that bird will go to the scrappers .... the damage is quite extensive and I bet LOTS of debris were droped by this 762.


Best Regards
TRB

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: AM744
Posted 2013-04-18 10:37:22 and read 7279 times.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 58):
How does an incident that happened in 1980-something under a completely different ownership and management (and likely different union leadership too) and a situation that took place in 2013 where facts have not been yet ascertained and liabilities have not been established make a pattern?

The MTY accident happened in the Aerovias de Mexico era, but I agree, let's wait for the facts. I'll leave it at saying that in general, our companies seem to do ok when everything goes as expected, but training must be upgraded. The apparent inaction on behalf of the crew doesn't sound right.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: intsim
Posted 2013-04-18 12:25:58 and read 7037 times.

Would a tail strike like this be visible to other aircraft on the ground in the area if someone happened to be watching that aircraft rotate?

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-04-18 12:56:59 and read 6965 times.

Quoting intsim (Reply 62):

Would a tail strike like this be visible to other aircraft on the ground in the area if someone happened to be watching that aircraft rotate?

Absolutely. There would've been sparks and smoke associated with this tail strike that anyone watching in the vicinity could've noticed...

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: TC957
Posted 2013-04-18 13:51:34 and read 6782 times.

What ! No spotters there at the time to witness this ??

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-04-18 14:19:53 and read 6723 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 53):
All of them they were kept out of the loop, meaning there was no announcement from the crew as what was going on. One FA sufered a neck injury due to the strike, the other had a nervous breakdown. (those were the 2 admisions to hospitals in MAD).

This is what I don't understand - if the FA's were actually injured during the tailstrike, surely they would have informed the cockpit crew? In that case, I couldn't imagine the pilots ignoring it.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 59):
IMO, any failure to report this incident lies on the flight deck.

Surely they knew that a tail strike had taken place.

Agreed that it was probably their failure but you'd be surprised at the amount of severe tail-strikes that happen without the crew being aware.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 60):
Of course the Captain and the F/O are complete morons

... Of course? We know that for sure, do we?

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-04-18 14:39:55 and read 6656 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 53):

Well I did not want to jump for conclusions but there are some facts emerging, PX on that plane:

All of them they were kept out of the loop, meaning there was no announcement from the crew as what was going on.

As reassuring as it might be for the pax to hear from the flight deck in this situation, they have other priorities to take care of in an emergency situation. I want the captain and the FO to be completely focused on assessing the situation and determining how to best handle it than make small talk over the P/A system to appease the pax.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: summa767
Posted 2013-04-18 14:58:42 and read 6615 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 66):
As reassuring as it might be for the pax to hear from the flight deck in this situation, they have other priorities to take care of in an emergency situation. I want the captain and the FO to be completely focused on assessing the situation and determining how to best handle it than make small talk over the P/A system to appease the pax.

Personally I was more intrigued about the lack of proper communication with ATC.
According to spanish media, MAD ATC have criticised AM's crew for not reporting of the tail strike, the injured crew and not requesting emergency services.
http://www.telemadrid.es/noticias/so...e-provocar-una-tragedia-en-barajas

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-04-18 15:05:58 and read 6573 times.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 67):
Personally I was more intrigued about the lack of proper communication with ATC.
According to spanish media, MAD ATC have criticised AM's crew for not reporting of the tail strike, the injured crew and not requesting emergency services.

I was really just referring to the flight deck communicating with the pax. They are the lowest on the totem pole in a situation like this (hopefully because the captain/FO are working with ATC)! I do completely agree with you if what is stated in this article is true. The AM crew is quite lucky the Air Europa plane following them only blew a tire. Imagine if that had been worse...

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-04-18 17:54:55 and read 6340 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 66):
I want the captain and the FO to be completely focused on assessing the situation and determining how to best handle it than make small talk over the P/A system to appease the pax.

It may be a non event for you, but believe me, people get really anxious when things get out of the ordinary. Example: you are relaxed and then all oxygen masks, drop, and when you took off, you hear a very loud BANG!, I guess you would be as calm as a fish? NOPE I guarantee you you wont, The 727 that did not lower the gear (that I WAS ON) was full of pilot on F dead heading to MIA, they were very anxious and one of them had its seat all wet from his hands!!!! And he was a Pilot !!!.... Sorry I dont buy it, You would really want to know what is going on, and it takes 1 minute to explain to the CREW what is going on and they relay the info to the PAX in case things are busy on the flight deck.

Quoting summa767 (Reply 67):
Personally I was more intrigued about the lack of proper communication with ATC.

This is the most glaring part and why I called them morons, because they endangered not only the plane and PAX by their mistake (mistakes happen and that is not part of my blame since I am 100% sure they did not try to have a tail strike), but their failure of communication about the tailstrike and the posibility of debris on the tarmac, then later on not informing the Tower to check with binoculars if there was any damage, and more so if they had injured Crew to ignore... hence Ii called them morons, I have the utmost respect for pilots because we put our lives in their hands, but in this case i CANT imagine all the nervousness they felt when they were ignored and did not know what was going on.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 68):
The AM crew is quite lucky the Air Europa plane following them only blew a tire. Imagine if that had been worse...

My thoughts exactly, procedure review for these guys is in order, more so after seeing that a very large part of the outer skin was ripped offf...

No wonder PAX were angry and vocal, about this.

TRB

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-04-18 18:56:33 and read 6230 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 69):
It may be a non event for you, but believe me, people get really anxious when things get out of the ordinary. Example: you are relaxed and then all oxygen masks, drop, and when you took off, you hear a very loud BANG!, I guess you would be as calm as a fish? NOPE I guarantee you you wont, The 727 that did not lower the gear (that I WAS ON) was full of pilot on F dead heading to MIA, they were very anxious and one of them had its seat all wet from his hands!!!! And he was a Pilot !!!.... Sorry I dont buy it, You would really want to know what is going on, and it takes 1 minute to explain to the CREW what is going on and they relay the info to the PAX in case things are busy on the flight deck.

You missed my point. I never said anything about not being concerned if this happened on an aircraft I was on. I would be nervous as hell, but I want the pilots to be focused on managing the situation and not wondering how the passengers feel. What would they say anyways? "We smashed the hell out of the tail of our aircraft and the plane won't pressurize. Enjoy the rest of the flight!"

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-04-18 20:02:14 and read 6152 times.

I dont expect the crew to come personally and calm me down, but a 30 sec announcement from the cockpit does wonders, They could have said, that they are going to return to MAD, to check the aircraft since they think the tail struck the runway, just a safety measure, thanks ....

In my flight the pilot said, " We seem to have a problem with the landing gear, we executed a missed aproach so the tower could check with binoculars if we had lowered landing gear, but since its late they could not be sure, so the Co pilot will take a small wrench and open a panel in the floor to check it visually from the cabin, its standard procedure so you dont need to worry about, just a safety measure" He said it non chalantly, with very clear words, no hurry, everyone on board was a lot more tranquilized, then he proceded to tell us we would dump fuel and if we saw the wings it should look great with the moon light outside. !!!

The main thing is that they did fail to comunicate to the tower, and then failed to comunicate with their crew... not good in my book.

TRB

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: SSTeve
Posted 2013-04-19 07:56:12 and read 5706 times.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 71):
I dont expect the crew to come personally and calm me down, but a 30 sec announcement from the cockpit does wonders, They could have said, that they are going to return to MAD, to check the aircraft since they think the tail struck the runway, just a safety measure, thanks ....

Make sure whatever is said, is said with a West Virginia drawl.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: mtyfreak
Posted 2013-04-23 12:12:12 and read 4841 times.

The Economy cabin configuration of the XA-TOJ is so uncomfortable that if the insurance company decides to call it a W/O it would do a big favour for passengers.

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: TheRedBaron
Posted 2013-04-23 20:11:52 and read 4380 times.

Quoting mtyfreak (Reply 73):
The Economy cabin configuration of the XA-TOJ is so uncomfortable that if the insurance company decides to call it a W/O it would do a big favour for passengers.

Jadec reports as a possible Write off... maybe it is a blessing in disguise !!!

I guess they can lease another torture chamber for 9 months till the 787 arrives

TRB

Topic: RE: Aeromexico 767 Tailstrike At MAD
Username: Marcus
Posted 2013-04-25 13:58:55 and read 3897 times.

Are there any more news on this incident? preliminary report? pilots comments?


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/