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Topic: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: C010T3
Posted 2013-04-29 14:05:41 and read 17245 times.

With LATAM's radical decision to retire 10 TAM A332 this year, routes were bound to be discontinued.
Here are the news from announcements to the touristic trade that can be confirmed through the GDS:

GIG-FRA and GIG-CDG will be axed effective August 12th, 2013. The announcements mentioned August 11th, but they weren't very clear. Sabre still shows availability for August 11th, but not beyond that date. Consider the flights zeroed out.

The news about GIG-LHR came through the HOTRAN filings. Effective July 7th, TAM's GIG-LHR will be downgauged to a 2-class B763. That route will be the first allocation of the ex-LAN birds.

It's not all bad news at GIG though. TAM's GIG-JFK will also be downgauged to a B763 effective August 12th, but it will at least go daily overnight both ways.

http://www2.anac.gov.br/hotran/

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-04-29 14:34:59 and read 17141 times.

So much for Europe Brazil printing money

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: winGl3t
Posted 2013-04-29 14:38:16 and read 17091 times.

There are rumors inside the company that MIA-MAO will also be axed.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: skipness1E
Posted 2013-04-29 14:48:46 and read 16956 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
With LATAM's radical decision to retire 10 TAM A332

Do we know what 10 are going?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: TC957
Posted 2013-04-29 14:54:03 and read 16890 times.

Well, I guess good news for AF, LH and BA then with no direct competition, or less competition in BA's case. Also less seats now available for next summer's football World Cup. Wonder if AF & LH will look to the A380 now to serve GIG.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2013-04-29 16:12:37 and read 16486 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
Do we know what 10 are going?

AFAIK, 4 of them would have their leasing expiring this year. Seems that Latam negotiates to return a little more than that due to light load factors than expected.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 4):
Well, I guess good news for AF, LH and BA then with no direct competition, or less competition in BA's case. Also less seats now available for next summer's football World Cup. Wonder if AF & LH will look to the A380 now to serve GIG.

It would make AF and LH life easier for sure as they will see no competition anymore on CDG-GIG and FRA-GIG. AF can even think about a 3rd flight and LH can upgauge FRA-GIG easily.
As for the A380, i bet AF will be the one looking to fly it to Rio de Janeiro.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-04-29 16:18:25 and read 16439 times.

Has traffic/economy softened so much out of Brazil that LATAM believes this is a good opportunity to consolidate and reduce capacity at this time?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: C010T3
Posted 2013-04-29 16:23:41 and read 16420 times.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
Do we know what 10 are going?

I only know about PT-MVA.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):

Has traffic/economy softened so much out of Brazil that LATAM believes this is a good opportunity to consolidate and reduce capacity at this time?

I don't think so, but LATAM is eagerly pursuing fleet harmonization. They want an all-Boeing widebody fleet as soon as possible.

[Edited 2013-04-29 16:26:53]

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-04-29 17:02:07 and read 16183 times.

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 2):
There are rumors inside the company that MIA-MAO will also be axed.

Well if DL couldn't make MAO work from ATL, there is no way in hell JJ could make it work from MIA      

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: Dellatorre
Posted 2013-04-29 17:07:41 and read 16151 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 8):

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 2):
There are rumors inside the company that MIA-MAO will also be axed.

Well if DL couldn't make MAO work from ATL, there is no way in hell JJ could make it work from MIA      

Oranges and apples... TAM operates this routes for more than a decade... Delta barely did it. Very unfortunate comment.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: java6673
Posted 2013-04-29 17:43:45 and read 15995 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 7):
LATAM is eagerly pursuing fleet harmonization. They want an all-Boeing widebody fleet as soon as possible.

What will be next? change of name to LAN Brazil, perhaps!!

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-04-29 17:48:41 and read 15956 times.

Quoting winGl3t (Reply 2):
There are rumors inside the company that MIA-MAO will also be axed.

I know loads don't tell the whole story, but after seeing how empty AA's MIA-MAO flights leave, I'm not surprised JJ is struggling with the route, too.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 8):
Well if DL couldn't make MAO work from ATL, there is no way in hell JJ could make it work from MIA

You have it backward.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: mia305
Posted 2013-04-29 17:54:16 and read 15923 times.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 9):

AA has MIA-MAO and so far it works for them with a 738.

JJ has a 763 on the MIA-MAO flight could it be they have to big equipment
and downgaudge it to a 320 to make it work?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-04-29 18:31:25 and read 15791 times.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 9):
Very unfortunate comment.
Quoting OB1504 (Reply 11):
You have it backward.

People...it was meant as a joke! eesh!   

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: Fly2yyz
Posted 2013-04-29 18:39:49 and read 15743 times.

I'm with many others on here... where are the A332s going? They aren't old at all are they? Were they outright owned or going back to lessor?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: AF022
Posted 2013-04-29 18:46:23 and read 15675 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
With LATAM's radical decision to retire 10 TAM A332 this year

Was this discussed on another link somewhere?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: SCL767
Posted 2013-04-29 18:52:26 and read 15654 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 7):
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 3):
Do we know what 10 are going?

I only know about PT-MVA.

PT-MVB, PT-MVC and PT-MVD will also leave the fleet.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-29 18:54:48 and read 15613 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Has traffic/economy softened so much out of Brazil that LATAM believes this is a good opportunity to consolidate and reduce capacity at this time?

The results of Brazilian carriers have been surprisingly rough for a while. Very little seems to work for G3 in the international arena, and apparently JJ is having troubles as well. Surprising, considering how much consolidation has been going on

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: G3787
Posted 2013-04-29 19:07:40 and read 15449 times.

Hello Avianca: HELP!!!

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: AF185
Posted 2013-04-29 19:29:35 and read 15202 times.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 4):
Wonder if AF & LH will look to the A380 now to serve GIG.

AF-KLM's CEO (Alexandre De Juniac), confirmed in last October they were considerring sending the A380 to GRU and BSB as off 2014.
With TAM pulling out of the GIG-CDG route, I am sure GIG will also be strongly considered depending on the a/c availability.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-04-29 19:36:47 and read 15111 times.

Here is the important question. What engines are being retired? We've had threads on how TAM operates all three engine types on the A330!   

TAM A330 Engine Question (by TR May 10 2005 in Civil Aviation)

So is any one engine type being returned preferentially, or is it a mix? I'm very curious to know the answer to this...

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 1):
So much for Europe Brazil printing money

That was my thought. Is Europe to Brazil saturated? How are the yeilds? Is this a TAM issue or macro economics?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Has traffic/economy softened so much out of Brazil that LATAM believes this is a good opportunity to consolidate and reduce capacity at this time?

Strange to do just 3 years before the Olympics though... business should be growing as Brazil hires contractors to build up the infrastructure for the games... Something does not compute.... If anyone has an economic history, I would appreciate hearing the story.

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 14):

I'm with many others on here... where are the A332s going?

As already noted in post #5 by LipeGIG, they are expired and early returns to leasors. The A332 will be easy to place with another airline.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2013-04-29 20:44:19 and read 14552 times.

In regards to the A332 fleet. MVA is already being prepared to be returned. Other 3 will follow shortly and then the 3 JJ B763. The expectation was that, 7 widebodies would be removed from the fleet, 2 B77W would join, and then LA would transfer 6 B763 (with 30J Flat beds) to fly

GIG-MIA and MIA-MAO-MIA - 2 frames
GIG-JFK - 2 frames
GIG-LHR - 1 frame
CNF-MIA/BSB-MIA - 1 frame
During the day, probably they will fly GIG-EZE.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
Strange to do just 3 years before the Olympics though... business should be growing as Brazil hires contractors to build up the infrastructure for the games... Something does not compute.... If anyone has an economic history, I would appreciate hearing the story.

And one year before the World Cup, considering Rio will be the top destination. In fact they will axe the routes even a few weeks before the Rock in Rio 2013.
Business in Rio is growing, but it seems the reason is the poor load factor systemwide, and they will not cut other hubs...

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 20):
That was my thought. Is Europe to Brazil saturated? How are the yeilds? Is this a TAM issue or macro economics?

We continue to see new businesses coming. Last week i helped one corporation from UK, one from California and another one from New York... all to open new offices in Rio. France is investing billions together with Brazil to build a few submarines for the Brazilian Navy near Rio, Nissan/Renault is building a major plant to produce 200,000 cars a year 100Km south of Rio, audience for the new oil round in Rio was never so busy as it is expected for now... but we grow too much based on credit and we are paying the price.
I would say it is a macroeconomics issue that generate lower LF and not so profitable operations. But flights from Rio, specially Rio-Paris, Rio-London and Rio-New York, are doing very well due to heavy business activity and limited premium seat supply.

The big winner here for sure is Air France as they manage to have a very strong brand in Rio. As i said before i will not rule out a simple and quick upgauge of the daylight to a 772 or 77W, and even a 3rd flight. Latam is probably not expecting a reaction, at this time, and in my view they could be surprised with a mutual one from AF and LH.
7 years to build a secondary hub, and now they will just give up.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-04-29 21:02:02 and read 14416 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
The results of Brazilian carriers have been surprisingly rough for a while. Very little seems to work for G3 in the international arena, and apparently JJ is having troubles as well. Surprising, considering how much consolidation has been going on

= Yup. It continues to amaze me at how many ways Brasil and India are similar. Sad to see LAN Chile destroy JJ's core routes instead of building them up further. Seems like LA is content to funnel everyone through MAD.

Saludos,
Alex

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-04-29 21:10:19 and read 14336 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
The big winner here for sure is Air France as they manage to have a very strong brand in Rio. As i said before i will not rule out a simple and quick upgauge of the daylight to a 772 or 77W, and even a 3rd flight. Latam is probably not expecting a reaction, at this time, and in my view they could be surprised with a mutual one from AF and LH.
7 years to build a secondary hub, and now they will just give up.

So is this standing down a hub? For if AF&LH are ready to expand, did TAM just not have the 'market presence?'

I'm generally curious as LATAM was on a roll...


Lightsaber

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-04-29 21:13:08 and read 14328 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
I'm generally curious as LATAM was on a roll...

= If decisions are made in Santiago, it won't necessarily have GIG's best interest in mind.

I personally will maintain that this is an extremely short-sighted decision. Brasil is the growing economy and the most important in Latin America. Moving out of the 2nd largest city is a very myopic decision.

Saludos,
Alex

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-04-29 22:05:24 and read 14641 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 24):
= If decisions are made in Santiago, it won't necessarily have GIG's best interest in mind.

Isn't LAN starting (or has started already) a SCL-GIG-MIA flight?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: stylo777
Posted 2013-04-29 22:44:18 and read 14535 times.

This will not only positivly effect AF and LH, but also the gulf carriers and TK.
I can also imagine an upgauge on the GRU routes of all carriers.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-04-29 23:31:41 and read 14470 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 25):
Isn't LAN starting (or has started already) a SCL-GIG-MIA flight?

= A route that JJ would have done themselves no?

Saludos,
Alex

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: LJ
Posted 2013-04-30 00:58:43 and read 13662 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 21):
The big winner here for sure is Air France as they manage to have a very strong brand in Rio. As i said before i will not rule out a simple and quick upgauge of the daylight to a 772 or 77W, and even a 3rd flight.

I would expect that AMS-GIG will become daily in W13 (or at least an additional upgauge) to funnel connecting or lower yielding traffic via AMS.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: mercure1
Posted 2013-04-30 03:15:17 and read 12524 times.

Yes might be short sighted decision but in practical terms is Brazil economy not cool down much recently?

I just read that Brazil is forecast to be the poorest BRIC performance this year. Forecast growth is down, Real value has shifted, retail spending down, reduced exports, inflation is up, etc.

Here are a couple stories from this week
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...onomy-retail-idUSL2N0CY0HO20130411
http://www.foxbusiness.com/news/2013...-hurt-bottom-line-at-brazil-banks/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoz...nomy-get-ready-for-the-correction/


Maybe LATAM thinks this slowdown is good time to push through these fleet changes, but also curbing capacity?

On subject, has LAN made any mention of placing parts of its large 787 order at TAM?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2013-04-30 03:25:35 and read 12484 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 25):
Isn't LAN starting (or has started already) a SCL-GIG-MIA flight?
Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 27):
= A route that JJ would have done themselves no?

This one and also SCL-GRU-JFK on LA metal were not possible as the US-Chile agreement does not give such right to Chile, nor Brazilian ANAC allows it.
They open the flights for reservations and had to suspend sales. As a lot of tickets SCL-GIG-MIA were sold, Latam had to put a JJ 763 flight/crew to cover the route in select dates.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 29):
Yes might be short sighted decision but in practical terms is Brazil economy not cool down much recently?

Yes. It's colling down a lot. Some government decisions (and lack of some key changes) drive investment down.
We are in a potential trap that probably will show harder effects after the World Cup next year.

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 26):
I can also imagine an upgauge on the GRU routes of all carriers.

AF will go to 2x B77W on CDG-GRU during Iata Winter 2013/2014.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-04-30 04:47:38 and read 11910 times.

TAM started GRU to CDG & MIA in 1998 with A330-200, Varig was still around. Its Surprising TAM wouldn't extend the leases since the oldest planes are only 15 years old. TAM needs every A330 and 777 they can get there hands on. With the World Cup and Olympics in the next 3 years in Rio refleeting with smaller ex-LAN 763 doesn't seem like good planing, LAN Colombia couls use some of those 767's. While admiring LATAM and most of their descisons this one has me scratching my head ?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-04-30 04:48:16 and read 11902 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 1):
So much for Europe Brazil printing money

It does if you're in the right alliance. OW is all wrong for TAM in the Europe-Brazil market. There's no way IAG will let TAM compete with BA and IB in the market. While in *A, TAM had good leverage but in OW they are clearly the #3.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: tonytifao
Posted 2013-04-30 05:02:12 and read 11736 times.

BTW, did I possibly see a TAM 777 at MCO last thursday?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: winGl3t
Posted 2013-04-30 06:28:49 and read 11046 times.

quote=tonytifao,reply=33]BTW, did I possibly see a TAM 777 at MCO last thursday?[/quote]


Sure you did. TAM sent 77W to MCO on April 25th and 29th.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-04-30 07:08:58 and read 10717 times.

Quoting AF185 (Reply 19):
AF-KLM's CEO (Alexandre De Juniac), confirmed in last October they were considerring sending the A380 to GRU and BSB as off 2014.

Sending the A380 to GRU and starting BSB where AF does not fly (not sending the A380 to BSB)  

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: wingman
Posted 2013-04-30 07:16:42 and read 10634 times.

I thought I just saw a TAM 77W at FRA two days ago. Seems like a big plane to be flying on a route about to be axed. Also saw the ANA 787 being moved around one of the apron areas, at least she was moving...not like the sad old LOT 787 I saw two months ago in ORD, covered in snow and looking quite forlorn.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: C010T3
Posted 2013-04-30 07:29:25 and read 10532 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 31):
While admiring LATAM and most of their descisons this one has me scratching my head ?

It actually makes a lot os sense. LATAM's results haven't been great since the merger. Of course, traffic has softened in TAM's international routes, but that's a phenomenon that is not concentrated at GIG, but the reality is that LATAM is taking the chance to chase better results in order to prove to the market that the merger is successful and that it was a good strategic decision. That needs to be done until the middle of next year, that's why capacity is being trimmed now.
Then, it gets interesting. Abandoning GIG like this is not the smartest decision per se when you think long term in the current scenario, but it is if you know what will happen in 2014. GRU will get a new international terminal, which will enable the few prime-time slots available to be used. They were unusable before because the terminal doesn't have the capacity. LATAM wants GRU as a fortress hub, so GIG in that scenario doesn't make sense for now. They will keep flights at GIG to Oneworld hubs, but that's it. Diversification will happen at GRU and fast!

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: crAAzy
Posted 2013-04-30 07:53:25 and read 10256 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 1):
So much for Europe Brazil printing money

Not so much all of Brazil, but more like the more leisure oriented GIG market and realignment away from Star Alliance Hubs.

Quoting mia305 (Reply 12):

AA has MIA-MAO and so far it works for them with a 738.

JJ has a 763 on the MIA-MAO flight could it be they have to big equipment
and downgaudge it to a 320 to make it work?

Agreed. 763 and a 738 were too much capacity on the route and JJ is going to need the 763s to replace it's widebody Airbus. However, if JJ leave MIA-MAO entirely it may be a nice route for an AA 757.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: aloges
Posted 2013-04-30 09:04:35 and read 9644 times.

Quoting wingman (Reply 36):
I thought I just saw a TAM 77W at FRA two days ago. Seems like a big plane to be flying on a route about to be axed.

That one would have come in from GRU. GIG-FRA is the A330 flight.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: IrishAyes
Posted 2013-04-30 10:07:39 and read 9141 times.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 38):
Not so much all of Brazil, but more like the more leisure oriented GIG market and realignment away from Star Alliance Hubs.

GIG is not purely a leisure market. At all, in fact. It is a massive O&D center and draws a lot of high-yielding business traffic.

GIG is not CUN, FCO nor BCN.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 30):
They open the flights for reservations and had to suspend sales.

.

Oy. What a mess.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
AF can even think about a 3rd flight and LH can upgauge FRA-GIG easily

I can see the logic behind upgauging FRA-GIG, but a 3rd daily GIG-CDG, wouldn't that be overkill?

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 37):
LATAM wants GRU as a fortress hub, so GIG in that scenario doesn't make sense for now. They will keep flights at GIG to Oneworld hubs, but that's it.

Seems to me like a vaguely defined strategy. Why place all your eggs into one basket and make GRU your primary TATL gateway?

LATAM has a lot going for it in terms of the placement of its hubs in Latin America and the future potential for capturing the high-yielding clientele and traffic flows between South America and Europe/North America. The million dollar question is, do they have a concrete network strategy in place?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2013-04-30 10:12:11 and read 9091 times.

What are the chances of LA/JJ/IB/BA applying for an ATI/JSA type deal on the South Atlantic? Would really give oneworld serious leverage across the Atlantic if it could get such a deal through.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 37):
LATAM wants GRU as a fortress hub, so GIG in that scenario doesn't make sense for now. They will keep flights at GIG to Oneworld hubs, but that's it. Diversification will happen at GRU and fast!

If such a ATI/JSA type deal was made, I could see JJ withdrawing from GIG-LHR in favour of BA alone (possibly with a 744 or 77W vice the current 772) and launching a second GRU-LHR that it could jointly market with BA (giving BA/JJ an effective three times daily GRU-LHR service). Makes you wonder if LHR-GRU would become a BA A380 route if that happened.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: Atlflyer
Posted 2013-04-30 10:26:38 and read 8979 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 7):

Doesn't TAM have A350s on order??? So why does getting rid of the Airbus widebodies make sense?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2013-04-30 10:35:38 and read 8914 times.

What are the chances of LA/JJ/IB/BA applying for an ATI/JSA type deal on the South Atlantic? Would really give oneworld serious leverage across the Atlantic if it could get such a deal through.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 37):
LATAM wants GRU as a fortress hub, so GIG in that scenario doesn't make sense for now. They will keep flights at GIG to Oneworld hubs, but that's it. Diversification will happen at GRU and fast!

If such a ATI/JSA type deal was made, I could see JJ withdrawing from GIG-LHR in favour of BA alone (possibly with a 744 or 77W vice the current 772) and launching a second GRU-LHR that it could jointly market with BA (giving BA/JJ an effective three times daily GRU-LHR service). Makes you wonder if LHR-GRU would become a BA A380 route if that happened.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: VV701
Posted 2013-04-30 10:41:34 and read 8896 times.

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 14):
I'm with many others on here... where are the A332s going?

BD were operating two 330-200s on lease when they were bought by IAG and merged into BA. Both aircraft were returned to their lessor last October.

G-WWBD was deregistered on 4 February as "permanently withdrawn from use". It was reported parked without engines at SFB in Basic BD livery with its titles and Star Alliance logo painted out on 17 February.

G-WWBM was returned to its lessor and ferried to VCV where it is still parked. It is still registered and it has been reported that Thomas Cook Airlines (MT) will lease it later this year.

So there is a market for used 332s even if it is not very viobrant.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: C010T3
Posted 2013-04-30 11:01:09 and read 8755 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 40):
3rd daily GIG-CDG, wouldn't that be overkill?

I also believe it would. AF-KL should focus in making AMS-GIG daily, then perhaps upgauge the existing AF flights

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 42):
Doesn't TAM have A350s on order??? So why does getting rid of the Airbus widebodies make sense?

Rumour has it that it will be cancelled, which wouldn't be that difficult considering that they're all-Airbus narrowbody. Airbus would surely accept converting those orders to the A320 family.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: jumpjets
Posted 2013-04-30 11:46:04 and read 8490 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
TAM's GIG-LHR will be downgauged to a 2-class B763

Interesting that the LHR route wasn't cancelled. Wonder why that was?

LHR is a stronger market just now?
BA doesn't offer the same volume of seats as do AF and LH so competition for traffic is less?
or
LATAM are slot sitting until LAN is ready to send us a 787 from SCL or LIM to LHR? [maybe wishful thinking]

Any thoughts?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: LJ
Posted 2013-04-30 12:04:51 and read 8372 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 44):
So there is a market for used 332s even if it is not very viobrant.

SN Brussels is in teh market for two additional A330s, though the rumours are that teh've already an eye on their 9th (not an ex JJ). Moreover, UX maybe in the market for some.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 45):
I also believe it would. AF-KL should focus in making AMS-GIG daily, then perhaps upgauge the existing AF flights

I agree, though after the current increase KL is already at 5 times weekly...

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 46):
Interesting that the LHR route wasn't cancelled. Wonder why that was?

I think you the asnwer is already given.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 37):
LATAM wants GRU as a fortress hub, so GIG in that scenario doesn't make sense for now. They will keep flights at GIG to Oneworld hubs, but that's it.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-04-30 12:09:12 and read 8344 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 32):
It does if you're in the right alliance. OW is all wrong for TAM in the Europe-Brazil market. There's no way IAG will let TAM compete with BA and IB in the market. While in *A, TAM had good leverage but in OW they are clearly the #3

WHY is OW the "wrong" alliance for TAM ? They have been in all alliances at one point or another. First when they started flying to Paris they code shared with Air France then then they joned the Star alliance and with the LATAM merger they are going to OW. Is the correct answer the alliance that TAP is in ? TAP controls that franchise and nothing is stopping TAM from flying to Lisbon, it would be good use of LA 767. OW helps TAM to Spain, the most important Latin to Europe market, and the UK, not a very strong market from Brazil.

TAM should be able to do lots with IB and BA, they only fly to GRU & GIG and do not fly to all the regional airports TAP flies to. Feed will improve lots for IB and BA in Brazil, how is that a bad thing ?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: Azure
Posted 2013-04-30 12:36:47 and read 8151 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 37):
LATAM wants GRU as a fortress hub/

Indeed. TAM have just announced they will operate 2 777s on the GRU-CDG sector as of August 20th (capacity increase : +63% !). This is a clear indication on their plans for GRU, the busiest airport in Brazil and where most of the premium traffic is.




Quoting jumpjets (Reply 46):
Interesting that the LHR route wasn't cancelled. Wonder why that was?

Because it is a oneworld hub, with multiple possibilities for onward connections with their (new) alliance partners.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: nicode
Posted 2013-04-30 12:40:39 and read 8093 times.

I'm really surprised about this...

About GIG, SS will open GIG in December 2013.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: SASDC8
Posted 2013-04-30 13:04:04 and read 7962 times.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 4):
Wonder if AF & LH will look to the A380 now to serve GIG.

I am quite sure AF will at some point upgrade to the 380.

LH on the other hand will more likely upgrade to a 340-600 or 747-400.

IMHO quite a strange move by LANTAM.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2013-04-30 16:48:16 and read 7417 times.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 46):
Interesting that the LHR route wasn't cancelled. Wonder why that was?

GIG-LHR have a lot of premium traffic, much better than GIG-FRA.
During the past 3-5 years, more than 100 different UK corps opened offices in Rio de Janeiro area, a lot of them from the oil & gas, industry and finance areas.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 40):
Seems to me like a vaguely defined strategy. Why place all your eggs into one basket and make GRU your primary TATL gateway?

They probably will try to have the very best in terms of economy of scale.
Amazing that 9 months ago, Latam CFO was trying to build "the GIG hub" with Lima, more Santiago, and additional domestic services. I believe also the state operated GIG lag behind in approve key domestic flights such as NVT, JOI, GYN and others, all that could feed better GIG.
When the economic situation become worse, "the GIG hub" seems to become an operation like LIM, UIO or GYE with just flights to OW hubs.

As Coiote pointed out, seems that Latam will make GRU their hub, while the secondary hubs will have operations only to OW hubs (MAD, MIA and JFK). As for the location, LIM gets LAX/SFO while GIG gets LHR.

So i would expect that they will announce later a MAD-GIG flight before the World Cup.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: Dellatorre
Posted 2013-04-30 17:48:04 and read 7293 times.

Quoting Azure (Reply 49):
Indeed. TAM have just announced they will operate 2 777s on the GRU-CDG sector as of August 20th (capacity increase : +63% !). This is a clear indication on their plans for GRU, the busiest airport in Brazil and where most of the premium traffic is.

If you consider that GRU-CDG was flown double daily not too long ago, I'd say it's more of a capacity adjustment.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: Reffado
Posted 2013-04-30 18:17:43 and read 7226 times.

Good to see the older frames leaving the fleet. LAN's 763's are really nice. As to the loss of the 4 F seats on some routes, I really never ever saw one of those occupied. Anyone know the LF's for, say, GIG-LHR?

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 29):
On subject, has LAN made any mention of placing parts of its large 787 order at TAM?

Not that I know of. JJ has a bunch of A359s on order, so wouldn't make much sense IMO. Also, the new 763s will mean a capacity increase in Y class for the routes in which they replace the older 3 767's. Current config is 30J (not flat and no IFE) and 175Y, and the new ones from LAN are 30J, 191Y.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2013-04-30 18:32:00 and read 7275 times.

Quoting Reffado (Reply 54):
Good to see the older frames leaving the fleet. LAN's 763's are really nice. As to the loss of the 4 F seats on some routes, I really never ever saw one of those occupied. Anyone know the LF's for, say, GIG-LHR?

GIG-JFK is around 75%, many times 100%
GIG-LHR and CDG performs very well on F also. GIG-FRA was a bad performer on both F and J after LH improved their product to daily and redeye both ways.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-05-01 07:11:12 and read 6672 times.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 38):
Not so much all of Brazil, but more like the more leisure oriented GIG market and realignment away from Star Alliance Hubs.

GIG is far from a leisure market. For starters it's one of the world's top energy capitals.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 48):
WHY is OW the "wrong" alliance for TAM ?

Because IAG will protect IB's Latin America network to the death   While neither TP not LH had much interest in expanding in Latin America so TAM was a very valuable partner in Lat. America. Not to mention the cozy relationship that TAM had with TP, to not compete with eachother, hence why TAM never flew to LIS.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-05-01 07:20:01 and read 6639 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 56):

GIG is far from a leisure market. For starters it's one of the world's top energy capitals.

It depends from where--yes there are a few high yield energy markets to GIG, but overall it is much smaller and much more leisure oriented than GRU.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-05-01 09:44:55 and read 6425 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 56):
Because IAG will protect IB's Latin America network to the death While neither TP not LH had much interest in expanding in Latin America so TAM was a very valuable partner in Lat. America. Not to mention the cozy relationship that TAM had with TP, to not compete with eachother, hence why TAM never flew to LIS.

Since IAG looks like its NOT buying TAP the time has come for TAM or LAN to fly to Lisbon, its too big a market from Brazil to ignore. TAM should have no problem transferring its FF over to its flight whent hey do fly to Portugal.

Whatever TAP or LH do in Latin America will not get too much help from TAM, even if it stayed in Star, in northern South America. Avianca help in the north and in a few years in Brazil too.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2013-05-01 13:47:09 and read 6207 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 57):
It depends from where--yes there are a few high yield energy markets to GIG, but overall it is much smaller and much more leisure oriented than GRU.

So how you classify the huge leisure market originated in Sao Paulo looking for cheap flights to go to Miami, New York, Paris and others ? Why AA handle extra flights during IATA winter ? To handle the leisure originated in Sao Paulo.
Sao Paulo have financial markets and industrials, but also have a huge local leisure.

Here in A.net we tend to look into one side only.
Rio is a destination for leisure, as much as any large city is origin for leisure. There's always two sides in a flight.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-05-01 13:58:15 and read 6205 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 59):
So how you classify the huge leisure market originated in Sao Paulo looking for cheap flights to go to Miami, New York, Paris and others ?

Just look at the average fares for those markets, versus GIG. It's night and day, and the major differentiator is premium/business demand.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: incitatus
Posted 2013-05-01 16:05:05 and read 5989 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 60):
Just look at the average fares for those markets, versus GIG. It's night and day, and the major differentiator is premium/business demand.

I think therein lies an additional difference - not simply business travel vs. leisure travel. Sao Paulo has a concentration of international banking and consulting businesses that are huge consumers of F/C class travel and Rio does not. A greater share of Rio's business travel is back of the bus.

The perception of Rio as a leisure market in a.net is still unrealized potential.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: SCL767
Posted 2013-05-06 00:17:10 and read 5298 times.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 25):
Isn't LAN starting (or has started already) a SCL-GIG-MIA flight?

During January, LAN planned on launching SCL-GIG-MIA daily with the B763 for the high season.  Due to the grounding of the 787s, LAN had to cancel the service due to a shortage of wide-body a/c.  The B763s were needed to operate the SCL-LIM-LAX and SCL-LAX routes.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 46):
LATAM are slot sitting until LAN is ready to send us a 787 from SCL or LIM to LHR? [maybe wishful thinking]

Well LAN has two more 787s arriving this year and 7 787s arriving during 2014. SCL desperately needs a new non-stop service to a oneworld hub in Europe  .

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 52):
seems that Latam will make GRU their hub, while the secondary hubs will have operations only to OW hubs (MAD, MIA and JFK). As for the location, LIM gets LAX/SFO while GIG gets LHR.

Indeed, as previously mentioned GRU will be the "fortress hub" for LATAM in Brazil and will be the launching point for new destinations in Europe; i.e. BCN and FCO. LIM is a primary hub for LAN and will continue to grow with new services. Certain potential new routes via LIM will operate to non-oneworld hubs in North America.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 52):
So i would expect that they will announce later a MAD-GIG flight before the World Cup.

IMO, LATAM and IAG will strengthen their relationship in the near-term; especially since TAM will join the oneworld alliance and will enter into code-share agreements with IAG. I would not be surprised to see IB eventually increasing frequency on the MAD-GIG route while LAN eventually increases frequency on the SCL-MAD and LIM-MAD routes and launches BOG-MAD.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: FCAFLYBOY
Posted 2013-05-06 00:24:28 and read 5270 times.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 46):

It will be interesting so see what happens when BA increase LHR-GIG which I believe will happen, without a doubt. BA is doing excellent on its Latin America routes, Brazil in particular I hear,

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: SCL767
Posted 2013-05-06 00:36:10 and read 5279 times.

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 63):
It will be interesting so see what happens when BA increase LHR-GIG which I believe will happen, without a doubt

BA will increase frequency on the LHR-GIG route from 6x weekly to 7x weekly. BA operates LHR-GRU daily; perhaps BA will increase frequency and/or capacity on the route?

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 63):
BA is doing excellent on its Latin America routes, Brazil in particular I hear,

Interestingly, it's rumored that BA's LHR-EZE service does not perform as well as their routes to Brazil. Hopefully BA will look at opening new routes to Latin America in the future since their network to the region is pathetic compared to AF-KL, AZ, LH, etc.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: VV701
Posted 2013-05-06 06:20:30 and read 4852 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 64):
Hopefully BA will look at opening new routes to Latin America in the future since their network to the region is pathetic compared to AF-KL, AZ, LH, etc.

How can you compare AF-KL with BA instead of with IAG?

My information is that IB that, of course, is the other arm of IAG, is quite strong in Latin America. For example according to Chart 52 in the IAG Capital Markets Day presentation of 11 November 2011, in the year to end October 2011 no less than 22 per cent of IAG's capacity measured in ASKs was committed to their "Latin America and Caribbean" routes. Compare this figure with just 18 per cent committed to "Europe" international routes. (The remaining 60 per cent was: "Asia Pacific" 9 per cent, "Africa, ME and Southern Asia" 16 per cent, North America 31 per cent and "Domestic (UK & Spain)' 4 per cent.)

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: jumpjets
Posted 2013-05-06 08:51:36 and read 4641 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 64):
Interestingly, it's rumored that BA's LHR-EZE service does not perform as well as their routes to Brazil.

Without being political, given the state of relations between the UK and Argentina I can't say I am surprised that air traffic between the two countries is less successful than with Brazil.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: FCAFLYBOY
Posted 2013-05-06 09:50:20 and read 4542 times.

As if on queue... In reference to my earlier post about BA expanding LHR-GIG

New thread on the forum, BA are to introduce the 77W with F class now reintroduced on the route. Sorry wont let me post thread link on my iPhone grrrr.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: VC10er
Posted 2013-05-06 17:36:23 and read 4232 times.

Interesting. I relied on TAM often as I am chained to Star Alliance. I knew I would have to switch to TAP and Lufty once JJ left Star. So this makes me feel less bad.

The issue is that as bad as TAM J seats are, they are better than LH or TAP.

Do we see non-stop fares to/from GIG shooting up?

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: af086
Posted 2013-05-06 17:40:47 and read 4207 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 64):
BA will increase frequency on the LHR-GIG route from 6x weekly to 7x weekly. BA operates LHR-GRU daily; perhaps BA will increase frequency and/or capacity on the route?

BA already serves GIG daily for quite some time.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-05-06 23:16:53 and read 4004 times.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 61):
I think therein lies an additional difference - not simply business travel vs. leisure travel. Sao Paulo has a concentration of international banking and consulting businesses that are huge consumers of F/C class travel and Rio does not. A greater share of Rio's business travel is back of the bus.

That just further underlines the strength of the GRU market vs GIG, with the latter being smaller and much more price sensitive, for whatever reason: whether it's more leisure or more price sensitive business (which I doubt), the end result is the same.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: abrelosojos
Posted 2013-05-06 23:55:25 and read 3961 times.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 62):
SCL desperately needs a new non-stop service to a oneworld hub in Europe  .

= But, at the expense of abandoning a stronger and far more potential growth market in GIG? Is this really how LAN Chile wants to move forward?

Saludos,
Alex

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: incitatus
Posted 2013-05-07 06:35:21 and read 3713 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 71):
= But, at the expense of abandoning a stronger and far more potential growth market in GIG? Is this really how LAN Chile wants to move forward?

To its detriment, TAM is being managed from SCL. LAN could pipe SCL traffic through GIG but wants to build up SCL long-haul because of national pride.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 70):
whether it's more leisure or more price sensitive business (which I doubt), the end result is the same.

A lot of for-business travel happens in coach - not necessarily price sensitive, but per travel policies.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-05-07 06:55:45 and read 3665 times.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 72):
To its detriment, TAM is being managed from SCL. LAN could pipe SCL traffic through GIG but wants to build up SCL long-haul because of national pride.

LAN did not achieve what it did out of "national pride" and dumb business decisions, it did so from smart decisions. It merged with TAM so that it could be huge in Brazil. What European flights make sense from Santiago nonstop should be nonstop but there are going to be cases when a connection over GRU makes sense. Brazil is just going to have more flights to Europe, its just plain geography.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: RAGAZZO777
Posted 2013-05-07 06:57:44 and read 3668 times.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 72):
LAN could pipe SCL traffic through GIG but wants to build up SCL long-haul because of national pride.

That's hardly true. If anything, LATAM is going to build up GRU long-haul. As a matter of fact, that was mentioned in the presentation when LAN and TAM announced their merger. The GRU hub has the potential to open up new routes to Europe and Africa.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: VV701
Posted 2013-05-07 07:44:52 and read 3593 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 70):
That just further underlines the strength of the GRU market vs GIG, with the latter being smaller and much more price sensitive, for whatever reason: whether it's more leisure or more price sensitive business (which I doubt), the end result is the same.

According to the UK CAA the LHR/GRU market is a little more than twice as big as the LHR/GIG market. They report 413,291 passengers travelling between LHR and GRU in 2012 against 201,305 on flights to and from GIG.

However the growth figures for these two markets depict a totally different picture. Compared to 2011 the CAA reports that an additional 42,328 passengers (+11 per cent) flew between GRU and LHR while the absolute growth in passenger numbers between GIG and LHR was 9 per cent higher at 46,165 (+30 per cent). At least some of this additional growth may reflect travel created by the Olympic relationship between London 2012 and Rio de Janeiro 2016.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: incitatus
Posted 2013-05-07 10:02:53 and read 3449 times.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 73):
LAN did not achieve what it did out of "national pride" and dumb business decisions, it did so from smart decisions. It merged with TAM so that it could be huge in Brazil. What European flights make sense from Santiago nonstop should be nonstop but there are going to be cases when a connection over GRU makes sense. Brazil is just going to have more flights to Europe, its just plain geography.

It is not only plain geography. The economy of the SP metro area is twice the size of all of Chile. That is not even including other areas that surround it and are heavy users of its airports. Even the small Rio de Janeiro state economy is bigger than Chile's. That is not counting geography, and opportunity for domestic connections in Brazil, and the leisure travel potential of Rio. The potential for Rio is much bigger than Santiago.

You are right that LAN got where they are by managing their business well. But I would not go for thin logic that says past good decisions mean present good decisions.

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 74):
That's hardly true. If anything, LATAM is going to build up GRU long-haul. As a matter of fact, that was mentioned in the presentation when LAN and TAM announced their merger

GRU is not getting the axe. GIG is. Pretty obvious TAM would be a worthless purchase if GRU were to be cut down. And as an aside, presentations about mergers are some of most worthless pieces of info out there.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-05-07 11:30:17 and read 3339 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 75):
However the growth figures for these two markets depict a totally different picture.

GIG is growing like a weed, no question, and doesn't have the capacity limitations that GRU does. At least until the aforementioned GIG cuts...

Quoting incitatus (Reply 72):

A lot of for-business travel happens in coach - not necessarily price sensitive, but per travel policies.

I think we're getting into the weeds here--GIG's business market is without question growing steadily, but its seasonality, fares, and size are much more indicative of leisure traffic

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: VC10er
Posted 2013-05-07 18:23:32 and read 3108 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 77):

I was told by United GIG employees that United is seriously now considering EWR to GIG non-stop.. I double checked with my FA's on the tag link and they confirmed that. Apparently some sort of notice from Chicago. I presume United (of this is accurate news) wouldnt consider it unless it felt the pax numbers were there. Also, losing TAM's JFK (pricy) non-stop is going away, perhaps they will gain most of those ex-VARIG, Star Alliance people. And that flight is always packed when I'm on it.

I know this thread is about LATAM and GIG to Europe, but me thinks Rio is Hot! I do live there half the year.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: LipeGIG
Posted 2013-05-07 20:52:29 and read 2994 times.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 71):
= But, at the expense of abandoning a stronger and far more potential growth market in GIG? Is this really how LAN Chile wants to move forward?

Their concept is ... they will accept the connection... the reality is that foreign Airlines will further increase their offer and create good options that for people travelling late night, a connection is not a good option.
The result is... they will lose customers. Do they care ? Not now, but may be in the near future.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 75):
However the growth figures for these two markets depict a totally different picture. Compared to 2011 the CAA reports that an additional 42,328 passengers (+11 per cent) flew between GRU and LHR while the absolute growth in passenger numbers between GIG and LHR was 9 per cent higher at 46,165 (+30 per cent). At least some of this additional growth may reflect travel created by the Olympic relationship between London 2012 and Rio de Janeiro 2016.

Easy to explain as GIG got additional capacity and still operate smaller planes.
UK investment in Rio is huge, and AFAIK and as per Labor Ministry in Brazil, Rio receives more Britain workers (qualified) than ALL other states together and 50% more than the second one. This is fact and we are talking about business, not leisure. Not just one year, at least just since 2008 and even without non-stop flights.
Oil & Gas, Insurance, Finance, Shipping, Industry, Events..... they come from all areas.

I can't say X passengers come for business or leisure.

Airlines are just reacting to business activity.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 77):
GIG is growing like a weed, no question, and doesn't have the capacity limitations that GRU does. At least until the aforementioned GIG cuts...

Cuts because of TAM financials and general performance not because of the local market.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 77):

I think we're getting into the weeds here--GIG's business market is without question growing steadily, but its seasonality, fares, and size are much more indicative of leisure traffic

Long time ago we could say that seasonality made a great difference in Rio. IATA winter use to come with charters and additional frequencies or upgauges. Not anymore. Last year only US deployed larger equipment, all the others deal with IATA winter the same way they deal with March, July or September which means they see the leisure as a component to fit the business absence.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-05-07 22:38:15 and read 2922 times.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 79):

Cuts because of TAM financials and general performance not because of the local market.

If it was anything other than the local market, LATAM would have found ways to salvage the market, or at least some of them, unless JJ's costs are much higher than LH/AF/BA, which I highly doubt.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: C010T3
Posted 2013-05-08 06:40:15 and read 2641 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 80):
If it was anything other than the local market, LATAM would have found ways to salvage the market, or at least some of them, unless JJ's costs are much higher than LH/AF/BA, which I highly doubt.

That's the thing. They're restructuring the network to something they believe will deliver better results, which is linking GIG to oneworld hubs. It never made sense to have a scattered presence in Europe with non-daily flights to FRA, CDG and LHR. Consolidation at LHR and MAD is what they're aiming for. That is all happening while the fleet is also being restructured.
British Airways and Alitalia have already responded to TAM's retreat with capacity increases. If the local market were the problem, that wouldn't have happened.

Topic: RE: TAM Axes GIG-FRA, GIG-CDG, Downgauges GIG-LHR
Username: incitatus
Posted 2013-05-08 07:05:54 and read 2607 times.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 81):
It never made sense to have a scattered presence in Europe with non-daily flights to FRA, CDG and LHR.

I always saw TAM's long-haul expansion at GIG as a pre-emptive move. Rio as a market is still five times larger than any other market inside Brazil, save SP. If TAM does not cover GIG, there is absolutely no doubt that another airline at some point would come in and establish a large presence in GIG - Gol, or Azul or whoever comes along. As a temporary situation, less than daily flights to main European destinations seemed the right way to make GIG into a secondary hub, using those second tier markets (CNF, BSB, VIX, CWB, etc) in Brazil to help fill the capacity. The opening of SDU to non-shuttle flights probably played a role in diverting capacity away from GIG that would have added connections to Europe.


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