Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5751091/

Topic: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-04-29 16:42:33 and read 20931 times.

Ryanair is to connect Sweden with the Canary Islands starting W13. Which means they will become their five longest segments as well:

VST (59°35'22"N 16°38'01"E) TFS (28°02'40"N 16°34'21"W) 230.6° (SW) 2682 mi
NYO (58°47'19"N 16°54'44"E) TFS (28°02'40"N 16°34'21"W) 231.7° (SW) 2655 mi
NYO (58°47'19"N 16°54'44"E) LPA (27°55'55"N 15°23'12"W) 230.1° (SW) 2629 mi
KSD (59°26'41"N 13°20'14"E) TFS (28°02'40"N 16°34'21"W) 226.4° (SW) 2589 mi
KSD (59°26'41"N 13°20'14"E) LPA (27°55'55"N 15°23'12"W) 224.8° (SW) 2566 mi

If I am not mistaken, their longest current route is:

BLL (55°44'25"N 9°09'06"E) TFS (28°02'40"N 16°34'21"W) 224.4° (SW) 2298 mi

At 2682 mi, those segments are shy of some scheduled TATL flights:

Aer Lingus - BOS (42°21'47"N 71°00'23"W) DUB (53°25'17"N 6°16'12"W) 52.0° (NE) 2993 mi
Aer Lingus - BOS (42°21'47"N 71°00'23"W) SNN (52°42'07"N 8°55'29"W) 53.5° (NE) 2895 mi
Air Canada - YHZ (44°52'51"N 63°30'31"W) LHR (51°28'39"N 0°27'41"W) 57.4° (NE) 2857 mi

And effectively longer than some existing TATL flights:

Icelandair - KEF (63°59'06"N 22°36'20"W) EWR (40°41'33"N 74°10'07"W) 257.0° (W) 2601 mi
Icelandair - KEF (63°59'06"N 22°36'20"W) JFK (40°38'23"N 73°46'44"W) 256.6° (W) 2593 mi
Icelandair - KEF (63°59'06"N 22°36'20"W) BOS (42°21'47"N 71°00'23"W) 255.3° (W) 2413 mi
Air Canada - YYT (47°37'07"N 52°45'07"W) LHR (51°28'39"N 0°27'41"W) 63.5° (NE) 2316 mi

I guess it is not commercially viable that Ryanair connects Ireland or the UK with Nova Scotia or Newfoundland. I know another issue is that EU-US flights are "horizontal" so because of the earth's rotation, in one way it takes much longer than Canary Islands - Sweden (which are basically "vertical"). And I am sure ETOPS would be another issue as well. So what changes should FR make in order to fly to NS/NFL/New England from Ireland/UK?

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: B747forever
Posted 2013-04-29 17:02:30 and read 20816 times.

Jeez, that are some long flights on FR. People will suffer on those +6 hrs flights with the terrible seats and only BOB.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: konrad
Posted 2013-04-29 17:09:18 and read 20729 times.

The schedules are not loaded yet, I wonder if they will make it red-eye on the eastbound?

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-29 17:11:02 and read 20718 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Thread starter):
BLL (55°44'25"N 9°09'06"E) TFS (28°02'40"N 16°34'21"W) 224.4° (SW) 2298 mi

Has this stuck around for a while? I honestly don't pay attention to FR, but I'd suspect 4+ hour flights are not their sweet spot.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
Jeez, that are some long flights on FR. People will suffer on those +6 hrs flights with the terrible seats and only BOB.

More importantly FR can only scam all those people out of their money once for its list of fees, versus 2x 3 hour hops or 3x 2 hour hops, etc...

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-04-29 17:20:42 and read 20628 times.

Quoting konrad (Reply 2):
The schedules are not loaded yet, I wonder if they will make it red-eye on the eastbound?

Perhaps, but winter isn't exactly a time when they need the capacity as they park dozens of planes.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
More importantly FR can only scam all those people out of their money once for its list of fees,

Seriously? I thought we'd grown out of this  


Dan  

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-29 17:59:41 and read 20431 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
Seriously? I thought we'd grown out of this

It's pretty straight math--they can either get one checked bag fee on a six hour block flight, or three times that if it's broken into three flights.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-04-29 18:16:40 and read 20330 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
It's pretty straight math--they can either get one checked bag fee on a six hour block flight, or three times that if it's broken into three flights.

True, but you shouldn't just multiply x3. In short flights, most passengers don't even check luggage (think about the typical domestic flights in Spain or Italy, or Ireland-UK). I assume for longer segments which are usually a 1-week holiday, most passengers are actually checking and, hopefully for FR, they have to pay for overweight.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: Boeing744
Posted 2013-04-29 18:24:15 and read 20278 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
It's pretty straight math--they can either get one checked bag fee on a six hour block flight, or three times that if it's broken into three flights.

Also, I think people are much more likely to buy food and drink products on a 6 hour flight, versus on a 1 hour flight where they may just decide to wait until after landing. I know I can't last for 6+ hours for food and drink, and carrying a significant amount on can be a massive pain (and contribute to your cabin bag weight).

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-04-29 18:33:23 and read 20235 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Thread starter):
So what changes should FR make in order to fly to NS/NFL/New England from Ireland/UK?

SNN-BOS is only 185 Great Circle NM further than this new longest FR route. SNN-EWR is less than 400nm. Both are less than the increase in range from the 738 to the Max-8 if they ever order it. I think ETOPS aircraft are heavier though, adding fuel reserves for TATL would probably be necessary, and the added costs are not really in FR's model. I believe US customs are already at SNN so that could make cross the boarder a little easier. They would probably have to get more feed into SNN to make that work though.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-29 18:37:17 and read 20216 times.

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 7):
I think people are much more likely to buy food and drink products on a 6 hour flight, versus on a 1 hour flight
Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 6):
True, but you shouldn't just multiply x3.

Ancillary fees wouldn't necessarily be multiplied by the number of additional flights but it'd be more ancillary revenue on two flights than one for sure, plus less competition on shorter flights generally speaking, lower fuel costs, lower crew costs, etc, etc, which all add up to shorter flights being in FR/U2/WN/etc's sweet spot, rather than mid/long hauls. Does FR have many 4+ hour flights? As a percentage of its network?

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: smbukas
Posted 2013-04-29 23:02:03 and read 19497 times.

What about crew rotation? I see that one crew are not able to do such roundtrip flight. Is it something new for FR they are switching the crews on both sides of the route? I am aware previously FR used crews to do a roundtrips only.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: invaders
Posted 2013-04-29 23:21:03 and read 19351 times.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):

Jeez, that are some long flights on FR. People will suffer on those +6 hrs flights with the terrible seats and only BOB.


Its either FR or Thomas Cook/TUI on a charter-flight. I have flown Thomas Cook A32X a few times from BGO to LPA and I actually think FR is a bit better then Thomas Cook. On flights with Thomas Cook you have to pre-order a meal or buy it from the BOB onboard, so tell me how FR is any worse. It's just that everyone loves to hate FR, while charter-planes get away with the same crappy service.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: doug_Or
Posted 2013-04-29 23:25:26 and read 19318 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Thread starter):
I know another issue is that EU-US flights are "horizontal" so because of the earth's rotation, in one way it takes much longer than Canary Islands - Sweden (which are basically "vertical")

???
There are headwinds going from the EU to the US, but the Earth's rotation has no direct effect on this.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: migair54
Posted 2013-04-30 00:49:19 and read 18781 times.

Quoting smbukas (Reply 10):
What about crew rotation? I see that one crew are not able to do such roundtrip flight. Is it something new for FR they are switching the crews on both sides of the route? I am aware previously FR used crews to do a roundtrips only.

I was about to ask the same.... maybe they can carry a third pilot to increase the duty time, but it will be a hell of a flight for the crew operating that...

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: invaders
Posted 2013-04-30 01:47:39 and read 18401 times.

Ryanair have also announced RYG-LPA (1 weekly), RYG-TFN(2 weekly) and TRF-TFN(1 weekly) for W14. First and the latter as a direct competition to DY

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-04-30 02:58:24 and read 18063 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
It's pretty straight math--they can either get one checked bag fee on a six hour block flight, or three times that if it's broken into three flights.

You know what I mean. Scam - come on.

Quoting smbukas (Reply 10):
What about crew rotation? I see that one crew are not able to do such roundtrip flight. Is it something new for FR they are switching the crews on both sides of the route? I am aware previously FR used crews to do a roundtrips only.

Well easyJet use one crew on their longest routes to Egypt, as do other carriers. They are around the same distances.

Quoting invaders (Reply 11):
Its either FR or Thomas Cook/TUI on a charter-flight. I have flown Thomas Cook A32X a few times from BGO to LPA and I actually think FR is a bit better then Thomas Cook.

Seat pitch is the same, it may effectively be more of TCX have the older seats. Compared to other carriers FR offer more pitch - Monarch for instance is just 28-29 inches.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: clydenairways
Posted 2013-04-30 04:21:21 and read 17675 times.

I really don't see what all the fuss is about. Ryanair are hardly pioneering anything new here and there are certainly longer flights than this every day to the canaries.

Charter flights have operated since the 1970's with the same seat pitch, and probably less actual legroom when you factor in FR seat design.

Food, either bring your own or BOB. A traditional crappy charter meal was hardly anything substantial anyway.

Crew duty- like nearly every other operator today these are all single out and back duties.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: YYZatcboy
Posted 2013-04-30 04:48:40 and read 16988 times.

Shorter than WestJet's YYC-YYT summer flights. Plus for the return YYT-YYC you are fighting the headwinds.

YYC (51°06'50"N 114°01'13"W) YYT (47°37'07"N 52°45'07"W) 70.3° (E) 2695 mi

According to Great Circle Mapper.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: aerdingus
Posted 2013-04-30 05:02:34 and read 16618 times.

Quoting SCQ83 (Thread starter):

These flights will be lucrative for FR. Scandinavians love to spend on these flights! From GRO - KSD, SFT, MMX, JKG, VST etc & also Finnish flights they buy a lot of hot food, & often the bars run empty.

Quoting smbukas (Reply 10):
What about crew rotation? I see that one crew are not able to do such roundtrip flight. Is it something new for FR they are switching the crews on both sides of the route?

I'm guessing they will have to overnight. A friend based in TFS told me when going to BLL the crew would sometimes have to overnight.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: flyingturtle
Posted 2013-04-30 05:12:02 and read 16429 times.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 16):
Food, either bring your own or BOB. A traditional crappy charter meal was hardly anything substantial anyway.

And on a 6 hour flight, I would mind less about buying my own food on the plane than on a 1.5 hour flight. Aviation was decimated by LCC, and we can't turn back time. Possibly we'll see a flights-on-demand concept where passengers can state their interests (for example LTN - NAP between June 20th and June 30th, return before July 5th), and then the booking software tries to shoehorn as many passengers into its planes (with stopovers or not), and flights happen on an ad hoc basis.

I've traveled for 6 hours on long-distance buses within Germany, with less seat pitch (so I think) and a worse meal service. BOB or bring your own. And such bus lines actually fill a niche (at least to me): If I'm tired enough to sleep and or have a good book with me, I prefer the bus over the train.


David

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: BA777
Posted 2013-04-30 07:16:45 and read 14009 times.

We're probably talking about block times of six hours for these flights at the least. I highly doubt it will be done as a red eye flight, however they will need to be careful with flight duty limitations for crews which will be sensitive to how early and/or how late these flights arrive/depart.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: invaders
Posted 2013-04-30 08:06:14 and read 13010 times.

Quoting BA777 (Reply 20):
We're probably talking about block times of six hours for these flights at the least. I highly doubt it will be done as a red eye flight, however they will need to be careful with flight duty limitations for crews which will be sensitive to how early and/or how late these flights arrive/depart.

DY is doing LPA-TOS-LPA in their winter-program with a flight-time of around 7 hours. I wonder how they do it with the crew rotation since it operates from their base in LPA. Departs 8am and returns 11.05pm.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-04-30 08:08:09 and read 12958 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 15):

You know what I mean. Scam - come on.

FR is a bit of a scam to all the parties involved, but then again you can't scam the willing 
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 16):

Crew duty- like nearly every other operator today these are all single out and back duties.

Can FR do a 6 hour out and back with only one crew?

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-04-30 08:49:01 and read 12102 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
FR is a bit of a scam to all the parties involved, but then again you can't scam the willing

The willing... you bet people are willing because there is no 'scam', simple as that. If you don't agree to their terms and conditions, don't fly them - it's the customer's choice and the numbers who fly Ryanair and are satisfied says it all.

Take my last trip; I needed to get out to MAH at about three weeks notice. Monarch wanted (IIRC) around £360rtn, Ryanair £24 return. With Ryanair I could check in online 15 days before my flight and go straight to the gate, having paid a £5 fee to board the aircraft first and select a window seat. With Monarch I can only check in online if I pay £5.99 to select a seat in advance. I arrived at MAH 25 minutes early, my neighbor who came on Monarch arrived 3 hours late. Looking to go back again in the middle of next month, Monarch want £360 one way, Ryanair £31.

Doesn't look like a scam to me...


Dan  

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: babybus
Posted 2013-04-30 11:17:43 and read 9366 times.

They are long flights and hence would be very expensive on a schedule airline. It's good for the people of Sweden to be able to get to the Canary islands comparatively cheaply and get out of the bitter cold of a Scandinavian winter.

That has always been the great thing about Ryanair; students, low paid workers, pensioners and the lot can all now travel for leisure and be with their friends and relatives. What a great achievement that is.

Can cabin crew really do a 10 hr return trip in one day? Where's the health and safety laws?

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: starrymarkb
Posted 2013-04-30 13:10:26 and read 7776 times.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
Can FR do a 6 hour out and back with only one crew?

Easyjet do UK-Sharm El Sheik as a day trip with 30 min stop in Sharm. IIRC The crews must have the day before and after as rest.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: aerdingus
Posted 2013-04-30 13:28:13 and read 7389 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 24):
Can cabin crew really do a 10 hr return trip in one day? Where's the health and safety laws?

12 hours is the max

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-04-30 13:37:23 and read 7356 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 24):
Can cabin crew really do a 10 hr return trip in one day? Where's the health and safety laws?

Many airlines do significantly longer same-day turnarounds than 10 hours. AC has some close to 12 hours. For example. YYZ-SJO-YYZ, 2030 nm each way. Outbound flight (A319) leaves YYZ at 1000 and the return flight arrives back in YYZ at 2140. Block times 5:15 southbound and 5:25 northbound. Turnaround SJO 1 hour.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: anplatinum
Posted 2013-04-30 15:51:59 and read 5012 times.

What is everyone complaining about? Ryanair sounds wonderful.

I have had to take several 8 – 10 hour bus trips to towns that have no air or train service. The bus seats have less leg room than any airline that I have travelled on and the seats do not recline. The noise level is higher and there is zero service. By law the driver must take a 20 minute rest stop every 2 hours and invariably they stop at a greasy joe’s roadhouse with terrible food. The only plus is that you can take as much luggage as you want.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: mon
Posted 2013-04-30 17:17:49 and read 4156 times.

Not sure what Irish rules are, but I would be surprised if they are much less than British rules and thus not restrictive in the above.

British rules are that (on the least restrictive departure times) the flight deck can do a maximum of 13 1/4 hours from reporting to duty to second sector on chocks time so realistically a 14 hour duty.

The above figure can be rostred by a further hour by using level 2 rules to give 14 1/4 hours to on chocks second sector. It can also be extended by using augmented crews (i.e. additional flight deck). The cabin crew can do an additional hour to the pilot rules.

All of the above can be extended (but not rostered) further if things do not go according to plan.




As an aside the possible looming new EU rules may well make these duties longer.

Topic: RE: Ryanair To Start Their 5 Longest Routes
Username: lollomz
Posted 2013-05-01 00:19:57 and read 3716 times.

Who can think to fly on that seats for 6 hours??????? I'll never do it........


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/