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Topic: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2013-05-01 08:21:34 and read 13688 times.

Excluding 9/11, What crash had the most ground fatalities?


This is mainly about commercial accidents......but I think an air show crash back in the 80s killed about 50.......I can't remember where that was.


If I had to guess, that El Al 747 cargo crash near AMS in 1992

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: FoxBravo
Posted 2013-05-01 08:26:00 and read 13704 times.

I believe it was this one (which Wikipedia confirms, for what that's worth): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Air_Africa_crash

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: aloges
Posted 2013-05-01 08:26:45 and read 13676 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):
I think an air show crash back in the 80s killed about 50.......I can't remember where that was.

The Ramstein air show disaster on 28 August 1988 killed 70 people, 67 of those were on the ground.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-05-01 08:32:26 and read 13620 times.

9 were killed on the ground in the PSA crash in 1978.

EL AL crash in Amsterdam killed 43

Ukraine airshow crash killed 77

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-05-01 08:47:46 and read 13518 times.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 1):
Wikipedia confirms, for what that's worth)

Here's Wiki's source for that part:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ground-carnage-after-crash-217951/

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-05-01 08:53:53 and read 13477 times.

Obviously the 9/11 crashes had the most by far. But you are asking about pure accidents.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: xlc
Posted 2013-05-01 09:06:03 and read 13363 times.

Pan Am - KLM crash at Tenerife claimed 583 fatalities.

[Edited 2013-05-01 09:06:50]

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2013-05-01 09:07:51 and read 13367 times.

Five 707 crashes had a high death toll on the ground. (Spookily, the final three had the same number killed in each case: 22.)

13/10/76: N730JP of LAB, Santa Cruz Bolivia, killed 3 crew and 113 on the ground
incorrect power set on takeoff, aircraft overran the runway and crashed into houses

25/12/76: SU-AXA of Egyptair, Bangkok Thailand, killed 52 pax and crew and 72 on the ground
excessive sink rate not corrected, crashed into industrial area

14/12/83 HK-2401 of Tampa Colombia, Medellin Colombia, killed 3 crew and 22 on the ground
operating a three engine ferry to Miami for repairs, lost a second engine on the same side and banked steeply before crashing into factories and houses

21/03/89 PT-TCS of Trans Brasil Airlines, Sao Paolo Brazil, killed 3 crew and 22 on the ground
a crew member extended the spoilers on final approach causing the aircraft to stall and crash short of the runway (this aircraft was used in the filming of the movie "Airport")

22/10/96 N751MA of Million Air, Manta Ecuador, killed 4 crew and 22 on the ground
failed to climb with an engine out, struck a church steeple then crashed into the ground and exploded

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: IslandRob
Posted 2013-05-01 09:09:08 and read 13340 times.

Perhaps the Tenerife disaster in 1977? This is the one where a KLM 747 struck a Pan Am 747. According to Wikipedia, "The resulting collision destroyed both aircraft, killing all 248 aboard the KLM flight and 335 of 396 aboard the Pan Am flight." -ir

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2013-05-01 09:14:32 and read 13284 times.

Quoting xlc (Reply 6):
Pan Am - KLM crash at Tenerife
Quoting IslandRob (Reply 8):
Tenerife disaster in 1977

I think we're talking about people who weren't inside the plane. If we're listing crashes on takeoff that never left the ground (and actually KL4805 was airborne when it hit the other 747) we'll be here all day - Air France 007, Spanair 5022, Comair 5191 et al.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: SoJo
Posted 2013-05-01 09:31:42 and read 13176 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):
Excluding 9/11, What crash had the most ground fatalities?

Don't you find this a morbid kind of question to ask?

I've seen some weird posts on this site but.....

This takes the biscuit IMO. Just sad.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2013-05-01 09:40:38 and read 13091 times.

Quoting SoJo (Reply 10):
Don't you find this a morbid kind of question to ask?

I've seen some weird posts on this site but.....

This takes the biscuit IMO. Just sad.

Care to explain?  

It's just a question. I'm not throwing a contest,:WHO"S GOT THE MOST GROUND FATALITIES???!!! YEEEEEHAAAAAWWW!!!!

I mean, seriously  

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: SoJo
Posted 2013-05-01 10:05:12 and read 12956 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 11):
Care to explain?

Certainly. Have you seen the video of the 747 crashing at Bagram? Not a nice thing to see. There have been numerous crashes over the years involving the loss of human life. In a lot of cases it has lead to aviation becoming a lot safer. But the human cost is terrible. I am not having a go at you personally, but I did find your post to be rather sick. This is just my opinion and I am not here to start any kind of conflict. I reacted to the post in my own way. Hope you understand.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2013-05-01 10:19:09 and read 12888 times.

Quoting SoJo (Reply 12):
Certainly. Have you seen the video of the 747 crashing at Bagram?

   That is exactly what inspired me to ask the question. I meant no disrespect to anyone that has lost a loved one to any aviation tragedy. This is an aviation forum and I feel that it is not out of bounds to ask ANY question related to aviaition accidents. I hope YOU understand my take......LET"S MOVE ON   

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: SEPilot
Posted 2013-05-01 10:26:26 and read 12851 times.

Quoting xlc (Reply 6):
Pan Am - KLM crash at Tenerife claimed 583 fatalities.

Yes, the planes (or at least one of them) were still on the ground. But all of the fatalities were passengers-I think the intent of the OP was to ask about fatalities among non-passengers (although when I first saw this thread my first thought was Tenerife). When you come down to it, almost all aviation fatalities happen on the ground-they usually don't die until they hit it (there are exceptions of course; i.e. midair explosions.)

[Edited 2013-05-01 10:27:52]

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: HELyes
Posted 2013-05-01 16:08:23 and read 12450 times.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 7):
25/12/76: SU-AXA of Egyptair, Bangkok Thailand, killed 52 pax and crew and 72 on the ground
excessive sink rate not corrected, crashed into industrial area

Actually 19 died on the ground, 72 was the total number.

http://planecrashinfo.com/1976/1976-86.htm

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: cedarjet
Posted 2013-05-01 16:11:09 and read 12441 times.

Quoting SoJo (Reply 10):
Don't you find this a morbid kind of question to ask?

If you don't like it, stay out of the topic. It's a perfectly reasonable question - accidents and disasters are probably the biggest driver of progress in safety. When I'm around pilots, they talk about crashes and incidents constantly. It's not morbid, it's part of the story of humans learning to fly. I didn't spend ages researching those 707 crashes for the thread to be hijacked by a superficial discussion of what's appropriate for conversation, especially when it's something as mainstream as air safety. Let's get back to the topic or stay out of it.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-05-01 16:23:07 and read 12386 times.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 16):
When I'm around pilots, they talk about crashes and incidents constantly.

   They show us crash videos all the time in training. It's one thing to hear "be careful with your weight and balance," it's another thing to see a video why. A good chunk of what I learned came from crash videos, and in a way, seeing the videos and learning from their mistakes will save lives and the previous deaths won't be quite in vain...

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: moose135
Posted 2013-05-01 16:35:08 and read 12331 times.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 16):
It's a perfectly reasonable question - accidents and disasters are probably the biggest driver of progress in safety.

A hundred years ago, when I was in Air Force pilot training, they gave us a book with details on a couple of dozen military air crashes (mostly fatal) with the story of what led to the crash, and the lessons learned. It was sobering reading for a bunch of 20-somethings who thought we owned the world because we managed to keep from killing ourselves on T-37 solo flights...

"Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself. "

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: CairnterriAIR
Posted 2013-05-01 17:07:53 and read 12233 times.

This one's pretty brutal....Took place on 2-1-63 in Ankara Turkey...a midair collision between a Turkish Air Force DC-3 and an MEA Viscount. 17 killed aboard the two aircraft, 87 killed on the ground and 50 injured.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2013-05-01 17:43:43 and read 12133 times.

Viasa DC-9-30 on March 16, 1969. 84 on the DC-9 and 71 on the ground...

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19690316-0

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-05-01 17:47:16 and read 12116 times.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 16):
It's not morbid, it's part of the story of humans learning to fly.

And it's why even some airlines, like JAL, put their accidents on display for the world to see: http://www.jal.com/en/flight/safety/center/

A visit there is a requirement for all of the airline's employees, and it's open to the public as well.

It's no more morbid to talk about this than it would be to ask which war resulted in the most civilian deaths. There are a lot of valid reasons a person may ask such a question, but the most important thing to remember is that the worst thing we could do would be to sweep it all under the rug. *Not* talking about it and acting as if it didn't happen is not helpful to anybody interested in aviation.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-05-01 18:15:10 and read 12006 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 21):

And it's why even some airlines, like JAL, put their accidents on display for the world to see: http://www.jal.com/en/flight/safety/center/

A visit there is a requirement for all of the airline's employees, and it's open to the public as well.

An honest and admirable thing for the company to do. IIRC there were two JAL officials who took their own lives after the tragedy.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: maxpower1954
Posted 2013-05-01 18:57:14 and read 11690 times.

For many years, United had a large room, kept under lock and key at the Stapleton MX facility which was a collection of United crash debris from 50 years of operations, complete with detailed descriptions and pictures of the accidents and causes The most haunting was a blood-stained captain's seat. Every new hire pilot was given the tour as part of initial training. Last I heard this practice was discontinued in the late 1980s because a few female new hires were distressed by the graphic photos that were part of the display.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: alberchico
Posted 2013-05-01 20:08:17 and read 10869 times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sknyliv_air_show_disaster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyB5FL3NZYI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpC-SSmUw_Q

This accident didn't get a lot of attention because it happened in a remote part of the world but it was the worst military airshow accident....

[Edited 2013-05-01 20:09:09]

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: greg3322
Posted 2013-05-01 20:11:07 and read 11188 times.

Not the most with 15 ground fatalities, but the 1986 Aeromexico DC-9 mid-air over Cerritos, CA, USA (Near Los Angeles)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Cerritos_mid-air_collision

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: olddominion727
Posted 2013-05-01 23:52:42 and read 9488 times.

The Sept 11 attacks!

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: olddominion727
Posted 2013-05-01 23:57:24 and read 9665 times.

I would need to agree the KL/PA flights. But have there not been other mid-air collisions? What about JL domestic route (I think TYO-OSA) and crashed into Mt. Fujii? I was very young, so I am sorry if I don't remember clearly. But I do remember hearing 500 people died on that 747 because it was a single class all coach.

I think that is the biggest SINGLE AIRCRAFT disaster to date.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: AR385
Posted 2013-05-02 00:03:33 and read 9662 times.

Quoting SoJo (Reply 10):
I've seen some weird posts on this site but.....

This takes the biscuit IMO. Just sad.

You are free to stay out of it, and read some of the other threads in the forum. You´ve waited until 10 responses were given, so it´s not like you are the most indicated to pontificate on "morbid"

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 16):
If you don't like it, stay out of the topic. It's a perfectly reasonable question

     

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-05-02 01:25:25 and read 8940 times.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 26):

The Sept 11 attacks!


Literally the first words of the thread: "Excluding 9/11..."

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 1):
I believe it was this one (which Wikipedia confirms, for what that's worth): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Air_Africa_crash

Assuming that the death count is correct, then this is the accident with the most ground casualties.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: AA777
Posted 2013-05-02 06:24:54 and read 6431 times.

Quoting SoJo (Reply 10):

I for one don't think his post was sick. He was curious. How would this be any different than asking what plane crash had the most fatalities? It doesn't mean he was celebrating those deaths or thinking of them as anything but a tragedy.

So what, he had a "morbid" question. We have to avoid all the scary or negative, or simply REAL aspects of human existence just so you feel more comfortable?

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: KL577
Posted 2013-05-02 06:48:51 and read 6157 times.

Another tragic event was the EAS Airlines crash in the middle of Kano, Nigeria in 2002. At least 74 people died on the ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EAS_Airlines_Flight_4226

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-05-02 07:19:58 and read 5756 times.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 16):

  

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 23):
Every new hire pilot was given the tour as part of initial training.

Or they could read the book; "The Unfriendly Skies" by Rodney Stich. It's focus appeared to be on how unsafe United Airlines was.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: ardian
Posted 2013-05-02 07:20:45 and read 5746 times.

I just stumbled upon this article posted on this very own website:
The forgotten disaster in Zaire

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: SmittyOne
Posted 2013-05-02 11:59:23 and read 4544 times.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 23):
Last I heard this practice was discontinued in the late 1980s because a few female new hires were distressed by the graphic photos that were part of the display.

Good for them. I reckon there were plenty of dudes distressed by those photos who didn't have the balls to say something about it. In a lot of areas adding women into the mix has given us a convenient pretext to cut out things that we probably shouldn't have been doing in the first place.

Given United's outstanding safety record since the late 80s, it would seem that the ritual was superfluous or even counterproductive to begin with.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-05-02 16:32:26 and read 4238 times.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 34):
Good for them. I reckon there were plenty of dudes distressed by those photos who didn't have the balls to say something about it. In a lot of areas adding women into the mix has given us a convenient pretext to cut out things that we probably shouldn't have been doing in the first place.

I saw those photos when they were hanging on the walls of a conference/training room at DEN-TK. While they did show some blood stains on wreckage, they didn't show any bodies or things of that nature. I didn't find anything objectionable about it. You'd find worse photos on the front page of a daily newspaper.

As far as women go they want men to be all cuddly and emotional and then they complain that men just aren't men anymore.
It is what it is. If the women didn't like the photos, they should go find another job doing something else.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: SmittyOne
Posted 2013-05-03 04:52:05 and read 3916 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 35):
As far as women go they want men to be all cuddly and emotional and then they complain that men just aren't men anymore.

Haha, agreed (though for the record my wife does not have this complaint   ).
Quoting type-rated (Reply 35):
It is what it is. If the women didn't like the photos, they should go find another job doing something else.

I'd agree with this and with including some sort of 'gore' component in the training program if the job actually involved dealing with crash sites or someone could show me how pilots have some deficiency in terms of 'taking the risks of their job seriously' without it.

Edit: Removed a point because I don't want to take this too far off the topic!

[Edited 2013-05-03 05:20:39]

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-05-04 09:04:57 and read 3397 times.

Those photos must have served a purpose otherwise UA would not have had them hanging on a training room wall. I can see the diagnostic and investigation value of them. To think that they should be taken down because it makes someone uncomfortable is ridiculous. There wasn't anything bad in the photos except for some bent aircraft.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 36):
Quoting type-rated (Reply 35):
As far as women go they want men to be all cuddly and emotional and then they complain that men just aren't men anymore.

Haha, agreed (though for the record my wife does not have this complaint ).


You got a good one then. Congratulations!

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-05-04 10:19:31 and read 3306 times.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 34):
Given United's outstanding safety record since the late 80s, it would seem that the ritual was superfluous or even counterproductive to begin with.

How do you think UA got that way? Presumably UA had that stuff for the same reason JAL has their safety center - to try to change the culture at the airline (Boeing did the repair, but JAL missed both the faulty repair and the cracking in years worth of further maintenance and C checks). But without constant reminders, corporate culture can easily get lax again.

When I was in high school and learning to drive, part of the training was watching a film of actual drunk driving accidents, complete with blood and gore, even bodies. (I presume the families had signed off on that, to try to prevent further drunk driving deaths.) The idea was to make us viscerally aware of the consequences of not taking driving seriously enough. Obviously I still remember that, 25 years later. These sorts of airline displays serve the same purpose for employees. I think it's a shame that UA got rid of its display.

[Edited 2013-05-04 10:20:35]

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-05-04 10:25:42 and read 3274 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 38):

Honestly, I think there is no black or white answer, I think to some it really works and to others it's just grizzly and unnecessary. I do learn a lot myself from seeing the aftermath... it is very sobering and it makes me fear the complacency that often kills these crews and passengers.

In the end though, I'd support sending the employees through... best case for the employee, it makes them learn and may prevent future mishaps. Worst case is it upsets their stomachs and makes them angry or something. Then again, their airline, their rules, respect UA's decision to show and their decision to stop showing

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: SmittyOne
Posted 2013-05-04 13:32:45 and read 3105 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 38):
How do you think UA got that way? Presumably UA had that stuff for the same reason JAL has their safety center - to try to change the culture at the airline (Boeing did the repair, but JAL missed both the faulty repair and the cracking in years worth of further maintenance and C checks). But without constant reminders, corporate culture can easily get lax again.

When I was in high school and learning to drive, part of the training was watching a film of actual drunk driving accidents, complete with blood and gore, even bodies. (I presume the families had signed off on that, to try to prevent further drunk driving deaths.) The idea was to make us viscerally aware of the consequences of not taking driving seriously enough. Obviously I still remember that, 25 years later. These sorts of airline displays serve the same purpose for employees. I think it's a shame that UA got rid of its display.

Sure, all very sensible in theory. But keep in mind what I was responding to was this:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 35):
It is what it is. If the women didn't like the photos, they should go find another job doing something else.

If the pictures served a valid training purpose then United was wrong to take them down, even if some women did object (if that is indeed what really happened).

On the other hand, if the pictures or tour had the side effect of discouraging women from flying for UA then it's a fair question of whether or not it was productive or necessary. And the apparent lack of pilots tearing up UA airliners in the nearly THIRTY years since the tours stopped suggests to me that it wasn't. Or that "liking the photos" was a logically defensible employment requirement for female pilots at UA.

Hell, for all I know I could be wrong...UA is less safe today and those female pilots who couldn't handle crash photos are awful. If that is true, or even if it's just a case of guys don't like working with them because they're not guys, then go ahead and say so instead of alluding to it.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-05-04 14:45:58 and read 3027 times.

But the crash photos on the wall showed no dead bodies or body parts at all. The worst was a piece of interior sidewall with some blood spray on it. And the photos were in B&W. Mostly they were photos of where the aircraft crashed and the damage to the parts of the aircraft. That's all. I did notice that most of the photos were from the old prop days. During my class they were never mentioned at all even though they were up on the wall. (737 Systems) Maybe a different class?

The thing I found even more fascinating was "the book". It was a thick book where all incidents at UA were listed and categorized No photos, but a nice description of what happened. Most of them were things like "woman passenger gets finger caught in seat recline mechanism and had to go to the hospital for 3 sutures in her finger" Another one was "passenger was deplaning and his/her hat was blown off by the wind and sucked into the aircraft engine. (727). It made you realize all the different things that could happen to people while traveling in an aircraft. This was back in 1972.

After I had been flying for a few years I thought I may want to go with the NTSB and get into crash investigations. Usually they are looking for pretty high time pilots with engineering backrounds, but that can vary. About a year ago the NTSB did have an opening for a crash investigator. Under the job description was wording like "in addition to the educational requirements the applicant must be willing to work in adverse conditions such as climbing mountains with minimal equipment, moving about in a swamp in up to 6 feet of water, etc. I'm way too old for that now.

I know years and years ago old NTSB crash reports used to report what kind of injuries the victims of air crashes had. But that practice was stopped sometime in the late 60's. Haven't seen that section in a report in years and years. I imagine if anyone wanted more info about that kind of stuff they could just contact the medical examiner who was called in for that accident.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: cschleic
Posted 2013-05-04 15:02:06 and read 2978 times.

There's an incredible culture of safety in most parts of the aviation business. While I'm only a private pilot, every GA magazine has regular columns or articles on some sort of accident or incident, as do seminars and on-line services. And, yes, pilots talk about them all the time. The whole point is to learn from others' mistakes, and make sure you learn how to avoid bad situations, or get yourself out of one if necessary.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-05-04 16:23:15 and read 2875 times.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 42):
The whole point is to learn from others' mistakes, and make sure you learn how to avoid bad situations, or get yourself out of one if necessary.

Exactly. Because if it happened to somebody else it certainly can happen to you. If you read a lot of the NTSB reports you'll see that often a small problem becomes a big problem quite quickly. It's all part of the ongoing education of aviation.

Topic: RE: What Crash Had The Most Ground Fatalities?
Username: SmittyOne
Posted 2013-05-05 10:06:03 and read 2542 times.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 41):
But the crash photos on the wall showed no dead bodies or body parts at all. The worst was a piece of interior sidewall with some blood spray on it. And the photos were in B&W. Mostly they were photos of where the aircraft crashed and the damage to the parts of the aircraft. That's all. I did notice that most of the photos were from the old prop days. During my class they were never mentioned at all even though they were up on the wall. (737 Systems) Maybe a different class?

Good stuff. If that's all there was to it I'd be skeptical of the claim about the new hires being distressed. Could just as easily been a rogue PR guy afraid of how it "looked" LOL


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