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Topic: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: migair54
Posted 2013-05-04 10:03:31 and read 12884 times.

Hi guys.

I have heard from a friend of mine flying in Singapore, that SIa has requested or is planning to laid off all the expat pilots before summer to reduce the work force because they are over staff and they want to keep only locals as much as possible.

Anyone with more information about this and some link or a way to confirm?? Are they also talking about the Malaysian pilots as well, because i know they have quite a few. Are some of this people going to be transfer to Scott??

Thanks..

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-05-04 10:18:27 and read 12804 times.

A few months back there was a thread about this. Basically they were not renewing contracts when they came due for a percentage of their pilots. I also believe they were offering long term leave of absence to pilots.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: mmo
Posted 2013-05-04 11:32:40 and read 12517 times.

For the expat pilots with mainline, they were ALL told they would be gone by the beginning of July. There has been a concerted effort to place the pilots with Scoot. However, the contract at Scoot is nowhere near which SQ is. There has not been a great deal of takes.

The expat pilots at SQC were told about 6 months ago, there would be no contract renewals. They are going to be taken care of by attrition.

The Malaysian pilots are not considered expat pilots. They are on local contracts which are different than the expat contracts.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-05-04 16:56:26 and read 11982 times.

Quoting migair54 (Thread starter):

I am not sure about the accuracy of this. I can see SQ/SQC going for more local contracts, that is not the same as more local pilots.I do not there are not enough pilots in Singapore to crew their aircraft without expats. Those expats come from place like Malaysia, India, and Indonesia as well farther afield.

Also a number of my friends that were working there, while they were not originally from Singapore, they were PRs (i.e. locals) after working at SQ for many years.

From what I have heard, SQ/SQC have a good reputation of meeting their end of the contract to the letter, expat pilots were typically employed on 5 year contracts, these are not automatically renewed.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: mmo
Posted 2013-05-04 22:05:45 and read 9774 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 3):
I am not sure about the accuracy of this.
http://www.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%.../Story/A1Story20130131-399168.html

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/aec/...eign-pilots-on-expat-30199109.html

Convinced now?????

Obviously, you seem to think this was just dreamed up?????

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: mach92
Posted 2013-05-04 22:31:09 and read 9576 times.

SQ is still asking for any local pilot to take up to a 3 year LOA.

The Cadet problem is also stalled.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: docpepz
Posted 2013-05-04 22:36:26 and read 9516 times.

I think the 76 "expat" pilots are not non Singaporeans but those who are employed on expat contracts which include housing and transport allowances etc. Non Singaporeans who are employed on local terms where they're just paid a lump sum salary are not considered as being under an expat contract. So if you are say an Australian citizen but employed under a local contract, you won't be considered as part of the pool of expat pilots.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-05-04 23:43:53 and read 8999 times.

Quoting mmo (Reply 4):
Convinced now?????

No, SQ has a lot more than 76 expats flying for them, but maybe not more on expat contracts. I did explain that expats in my view means any non-Singaporean, which is not the same as an expat with PR or expat on a local contract. The article actually says "Pilots on local terms are unaffected - for now."

There are a lot of Malaysians flying for SQ, they tend to be on local contracts. There has also been a lot of jealously from locals in SQ why they even need these expats, the think they should be promoted above expats. Locals tend to get to SQ later than people from Malaysia etc because of national service, and they see a lot of expats getting their commands before locals. SQ had requirements on the number of hours, PF sectors etc they needed before getting a command. At the same time, they would take the initiative to go to a fleet which got them these requirements quicker (like the A330), they want to stay on the long haul A380 and ask why other people get their requirements quicker.

Instead of loosing face and going on the less prestigious fleet, they stay on aircraft like the A380 and 744 before, and would be lucky getting 1 or 2 PF sectors a month. It takes a long time then to get 500 sectors. A person on the A330 might get 5-10 sectors a month, thus reaching the command requirements much quicker.

Quoting docpepz (Reply 6):
Non Singaporeans who are employed on local terms where they're just paid a lump sum salary are not considered as being under an expat contract.

Correct, and last time I spoke to people down there, there was not a large difference between the contracts. Pilots on local terms received the 15% I think it was pension scheme which the expats do not. A lot of the pilots I knew down that way were ex-BA and CX that retired at 55 and took a 5 year contract with SQ. SQ had a retirement age of 62.

Quoting docpepz (Reply 6):
So if you are say an Australian citizen but employed under a local contract, you won't be considered as part of the pool of expat pilots.

Correct, last I heard there was just over 110 pilots on expat terms, so the 76 could well be the case now. I know some of the pilots just renewed on local terms.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: mmo
Posted 2013-05-05 00:13:42 and read 8740 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 7):
There are a lot of Malaysians flying for SQ

After spending 10 years flying for SQ, I think I am somewhat qualified to speak about what goes on in SIA group. There are a lot of Malaysians flying for SQ, they are on "local terms" and have PR status. Thus they are considered on the same playing field as Singaporeans. In fact, there is some internal friction as the Malay cadets actually get a jump on the Singaporean cadets as there is no national service in Malaysian.

The amount of expats at mainline is correct. The expat pilots are those pilots who are there under a work visa and on an expat contract. There are expat pilots who have PR (permanent resident) status, but they are on local terms. The company stipulates in your expat contract if you do get PR status, you must accept a local contract. Be aware if you have male children, they are subject to NS!! So, it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Quoting zeke (Reply 7):
Correct, and last time I spoke to people down there, there was not a large difference between the contracts.

There are major differences between the contracts. No school allowance, no housing allowance, different leave, different medical and no provident fund for an expat contract. In reality there are other differences, as an expat and I mean non Singaporean/Malay, overtime is a rare occurrence.

Quoting zeke (Reply 7):
SQ had a retirement age of 62.

True statement, but only partially true. If you elect to fly over 60 you do so with a 10% pay cut. That is for the "costs" associated with having special rules applied for crewing and other safeguards. That is why I elected to leave.

Quoting zeke (Reply 7):
Correct, last I heard there was just over 110 pilots on expat terms, so the 76 could well be the case now. I know some of the pilots just renewed on local terms.

Both SIA and SQC had informed all pilots (Capt and FO) there would be no renewal of EXPAT contracts. The attrition process had begun and this was to alleviate the staffing problems with overages of captains. So, the 76 Captains at SIA is a very good number. The pilots at that time had the option of going to local terms. Most did not because of the perceived disparity between the contracts. To be honest, if you had kids in school it would be tough to send them to an international school in Singapore.

Quoting zeke (Reply 7):
ex-BA and CX that retired at 55 and took a 5 year contract with SQ

If you are current an qualified the only contract is a 3 year contract. If you are not then it is a 5 year contract. Most guys who came from BA/CX were on 3 year contracts.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: Skyguy
Posted 2013-05-05 07:40:41 and read 5305 times.

This is the general trend in Singapore for the last few years, executives and professionals on Expat packages working in companies in Singapore are being told to either accept a lump sum local package or face non-renewal of their contract of employment. There was a time when getting experienced talent to move to Singapore required sweet compensation packages, that is now increasingly a thing of the past as availability of qualified people willing to move to Singapore has increased over the years in tandem with the slow down of the global economy.
The decision by SQ to not renew expat packages is in tandem with the local business practices as it is no longer necessary to offer such expensive contracts to employees except in rare or exceptional circumstances, and nothing against expats themselves.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: mmo
Posted 2013-05-05 11:39:18 and read 4167 times.

Quoting docpepz (Reply 6):
Non Singaporeans who are employed on local terms where they're just paid a lump sum salary are not considered as being under an expat contract.

The "local" contract is not just a lump sum salary. There are various components added in to the base pay, you get a PPA, pilot productivity allowance, aka Flight Pay, you get a MVC monthly variable component which is a monthly bonus that is paid when certain financial targets are met. And, IIRC there is AVC which is the annual variable component which is a set % based on the last year financials. You also get a 13th month pay which is your base pay and then profit sharing paid on a predetermined formula. Add in to that meal allowance paid when you are away from base.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-05-05 16:56:31 and read 3834 times.

Quoting mmo (Reply 8):
There are a lot of Malaysians flying for SQ, they are on "local terms" and have PR status. Thus they are considered on the same playing field as Singaporeans.

You can add Indonesia and Indians in that group as well (more of the Indians in MI).

Quoting mmo (Reply 8):
In fact, there is some internal friction as the Malay cadets actually get a jump on the Singaporean cadets as there is no national service in Malaysian.

Yep,I tried to express that above. Some of the Malays were getting commands as the local were getting out of YBMC.

Quoting mmo (Reply 8):
The company stipulates in your expat contract if you do get PR status, you must accept a local contract.

Not sure about that, I know immigration changed so that you could get a card that allowed one to remain in Singapore if you had been gainfully employed for at least 2 years.

Quoting mmo (Reply 8):
Be aware if you have male children, they are subject to NS!!

I have been told maybe, age also come into it from what I understand.

Quoting mmo (Reply 8):
No school allowance, no housing allowance, different leave, different medical and no provident fund for an expat contract.
Quoting mmo (Reply 8):
If you elect to fly over 60 you do so with a 10% pay cut. That is for the "costs" associated with having special rules applied for crewing and other safeguards.

I was not aware of the pay cut.

Quoting mmo (Reply 8):
To be honest, if you had kids in school it would be tough to send them to an international school in Singapore.

That is for almost everywhere in Asia.

Quoting mmo (Reply 8):
If you are current an qualified the only contract is a 3 year contract. If you are not then it is a 5 year contract. Most guys who came from BA/CX were on 3 year contracts.

I know people from BA that had 5 year contracts that were current on the 777, they did not like the idea of only 3 years. However I think the requirement was they had to pay a 50k bond.

Quoting Skyguy (Reply 9):
There was a time when getting experienced talent to move to Singapore required sweet compensation packages, that is now increasingly a thing of the past as availability of qualified people willing to move to Singapore has increased over the years in tandem with the slow down of the global economy.

To get one of those contract, you basically needed 10-20 years of airline experience. SQ was importing experience into its ranks where in the SO/FO ranks they have not much experience at all. This has probably wiped out 1000-2000 years of safe airline experience, and is leaving them from what I understand understaffed by 25 captains.

This is not the first time local have tried to "evict" expats from SQ, one of the previous times I recall management produced their rather thick safety report, and highlighted the lack of appearance of events caused by expats in the report.

Now to get expats to move back is going to require even better contracts, and this I think is the first time they are not letting contracts running to their end. I am told all expats will be out by early July regardless if their contract is up or not.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: crownvic
Posted 2013-05-05 20:36:20 and read 3545 times.

Quoting mmo (Reply 8):
Be aware if you have male children, they are subject to NS!! So, it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Please explain what "NS" is.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: ZKSUJ
Posted 2013-05-05 21:29:50 and read 3464 times.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 12):
Please explain what "NS" is.

National Service. 2 years compulsary military training

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: mmo
Posted 2013-05-05 22:20:28 and read 3373 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
Not sure about that, I know immigration changed so that you could get a card that allowed one to remain in Singapore if you had been gainfully employed for at least 2 years.

It is not an immigration issue but a SQ issue. the MOM (Ministry of Manpower) has no position on this but SQ has it in the contract that if you elect to become a PR, then you MUST take a local contract.

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
I have been told maybe, age also come into it from what I understand.

The age is 18. So, if you have male children that will turn 18 while living in Singapore as a PR, they are subject to the requirement of 2 years of NS.

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
I was not aware of the pay cut.

The pay cut is a MOM imposed measure for all workers over 60.

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
I know people from BA that had 5 year contracts that were current on the 777, they did not like the idea of only 3 years. However I think the requirement was they had to pay a 50k bond.

If they paid a bond, then they were not current. If you are current and qualified there is no bond, no bank guarantee and no 5 year contract.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-05-06 07:24:42 and read 3002 times.

Quoting mmo (Reply 14):
It is not an immigration issue but a SQ issue. the MOM (Ministry of Manpower) has no position on this but SQ has it in the contract that if you elect to become a PR, then you MUST take a local contract.

There must have been an in-between step. Something that did not involve SQ to be the sponsor, I was told any employee regardless of who they worked for were eligible for this after 2 years if their income exceeded a threshold. It enabled them to remain in Singapore even if they were not employed by SQ.

Quoting mmo (Reply 14):
The age is 18. So, if you have male children that will turn 18 while living in Singapore as a PR, they are subject to the requirement of 2 years of NS

I know one of the pilots, his youngest had already finished university. These people were typically starting in the 55-57 age bracket.

Quoting mmo (Reply 14):
The pay cut is a MOM imposed measure for all workers over 60.

Thanks, was not aware of that.

Quoting mmo (Reply 14):
If they paid a bond, then they were not current. If you are current and qualified there is no bond, no bank guarantee and no 5 year contract.

I deffo know one pilot from BA that that was current on the 777 when he retired, and then produced a guarantee from a bank where he had funds deposited as a term deposit. He explained to me that he was getting over 10% return on the funds between the bank and SQ. I had no reason to doubt him, and from what I could gather there was no difference in the course if they were or were not type rated. Just the line training.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: mmo
Posted 2013-05-06 08:08:04 and read 2897 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I know one of the pilots, his youngest had already finished university. These people were typically starting in the 55-57 age bracket.

If the dependent is of legal age, when the PR is granted, then there is no NS. However, the dependent is no longer a "dependent" in the eyes of Singapore and can only enter on a visitor visa. In addition, in the case you refer to, I would imagine the dependent is already at Uni above 18 and not living in Singapore. There were several pilots who got burned by taking PR and then trying to send their children back to the UK/EU for Uni. The did not qualify for Home/EU rates and had to pay the international tuition fees.

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
I had no reason to doubt him, and from what I could gather there was no difference in the course if they were or were not type rated. Just the line training.

There is a difference in the training course. The line training is identical. To be honest, what you were told does not make sense. Returns were not anywhere close to 10%

Quoting zeke (Reply 15):
There must have been an in-between step. Something that did not involve SQ to be the sponsor, I was told any employee regardless of who they worked for were eligible for this after 2 years if their income exceeded a threshold. It enabled them to remain in Singapore even if they were not employed by SQ.

Not really, it is a contractual issue that if you are granted PR status you MUST go on a local contract. The biggest reason is because you are now covered by a provident fund. On a expat contract, there is no provident fund. So, if you were granted PR status, then you would be on the higher paying contract an getting a provident fund. Not going to happen!!!!

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-05-06 09:09:52 and read 2805 times.

Quoting mmo (Reply 16):
However, the dependent is no longer a "dependent" in the eyes of Singapore and can only enter on a visitor visa.

That seems logical.

Quoting mmo (Reply 16):
In addition, in the case you refer to, I would imagine the dependent is already at Uni above 18 and not living in Singapore.

The youngest was post graduate, on scholarship in the UK.

Quoting mmo (Reply 16):
There were several pilots who got burned by taking PR and then trying to send their children back to the UK/EU for Uni. The did not qualify for Home/EU rates and had to pay the international tuition fees.

I did hear of many pitfalls,people getting large tax bills in the UK.

Quoting mmo (Reply 16):
To be honest, what you were told does not make sense. Returns were not anywhere close to 10%

It was a bank based in India with a rate of around 5% (around Parkway Parade), plus SQ paid so much per year at the end of the contract.

Quoting mmo (Reply 16):
Not really, it is a contractual issue that if you are granted PR status you MUST go on a local contract.

I looked it up, I think the person I was thinking of was on a Personalised Employment Pass, it allowed them to another employer without having to get a letter from SQ.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: mmo
Posted 2013-05-06 09:17:35 and read 2781 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
It was a bank based in India with a rate of around 5% (around Parkway Parade), plus SQ paid so much per year at the end of the contract.

I know of no expat that ever volunteered to pay a bond. The other part of the story is not only is there a cash bond to be paid but you also sign a bank guarantee for a training bond. So, you are on the hook for a great deal of money and the bank guarantee does come at a cost. So, again, something is not correct.

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
The youngest was post graduate, on scholarship in the UK.

In that case they were over 18 and not living in Singapore to begin with. I know of several expats who when their sons turned 18, they had to do NS. Came as a big surprise. Also caused a lot of political problems since they were from the US and it is a criminal offense to serve in another country's military while retaining your US citizenship.

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
I looked it up, I think the person I was thinking of was on a Personalised Employment Pass, it allowed them to another employer without having to get a letter from SQ.

When I was there all expat Captains had the PEP. Again, it is not a MOM issue but a contractual issue with SQ.

Topic: RE: SQ Expat Pilots.
Username: crownvic
Posted 2013-05-06 21:16:56 and read 2399 times.

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 13):
Quoting crownvic (Reply 12):
Please explain what "NS" is.

National Service. 2 years compulsary military training

Thank you...It amazes me the similarities of this country and Israel. How many other small countries like this have such fire power  


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