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Topic: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: JoePatroni707
Posted 2013-05-04 16:13:08 and read 19423 times.

Seems to me the whole thing got blown out of proportion. Flight attendants tend to do that. However, always two sides to a story...

http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs...line-over-soda-spat-135121857.html

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: FedExFlyerPHL
Posted 2013-05-04 16:32:35 and read 19362 times.

I don't understand what the big deal was about using the console to order. I actually find it more convenient.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: thegoldenargosy
Posted 2013-05-04 16:33:32 and read 19347 times.

I'd like to hear what the flight attendants have to say. After working in the industry I tend to believe the employee over the passenger.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: FlyKev
Posted 2013-05-04 16:39:05 and read 19284 times.

If they called the cops on him, that is over the top - however suing for $500,000 in damages is in no way legitimate compensation for what happened. The original $3000 and even the $5000 VX offered this passenger seemed much more reasonable.
What a joke.

Kevin.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2013-05-04 16:46:22 and read 19202 times.

From the article:


"I'm going to have some kind of record because of a flight attendant fabricating events?" says Bevivino

What recprd???????  

He wasnt arrested!  

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: BMI727
Posted 2013-05-04 17:08:05 and read 19056 times.

No matter what did or did not occur on the flight, this passenger is a blithering idiot. Nobody would know anything about this had he not made a big deal of this by filing suit and taking it to the media. The guy is a moron and and a drama queen.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-05-04 17:24:38 and read 18946 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 4):
"I'm going to have some kind of record because of a flight attendant fabricating events?" says Bevivino

A record of Dutch oven-ing a plane load of people ? We all make choices...

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-05-04 17:37:07 and read 18852 times.

Wow. Well I doubt the crew would call the police on him for nothing... maybe calling the police was over the top for what he really might have done but I'm sure there had to be something... something is fishy...

And boo hoo, cry me a river, I'm sure he wasn't $500,000 traumatized by this ordeal. Some people have way too much time on their hands

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: strangr
Posted 2013-05-04 17:47:29 and read 18783 times.

Typical American attitude I think.

The customer was asked to do it as per policy, but refused and again pressed the call button even after being asked to do it said way.

Its not that hard really to follow the rules, but from my experience in the USA no one is willing to compromise on the fact that I'll do it my way and eventually you'll do what i tell you to cause i am the customer.

$500k lawsuit again typical American attitude, this would be laughed at all the way to the footpath in Australia, but again this keep an over litigated society employed.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: NWAROOSTER
Posted 2013-05-04 17:51:55 and read 18754 times.

The airline should have offered the passenger an apology in writing and paid him the money it originally offered and guaranteed the passenger NO record of the incident would appear in any police or other record that would name or involve the passenger. In other words, the incident should have been "expunged" at the airlines expense. I think the passenger would have accepted it.. I would have, but most likely never fly on that airline again. Involving the police had to be the stupidest thing that could have be done. The airline employees need to be reeducated in passenger relations. The police have better and more important things to handle than petty stupidity. Safety of flight or the crew was never involved.
I think requiring a passenger to order a soda or make any other request electronically is stupid and ludicrous. The flight attendant could have simply told him, he could buy one and charge him for it. The unfortunate thing is now that most airlines now do not trust their employees with cash and require passengers to use electronic terminals , such as the one on the back of the seat, to keep a record of what is sold. Payment also may be required with a credit card. Life, now days is just too complicated and people are required to waste time to do the simplest things. Not everyone will die because they do not have an iPhone, iPad or some other electronic device.
It should be KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid.   

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-05-04 18:03:41 and read 18657 times.

Quoting strangr (Reply 8):
Its not that hard really to follow the rules, but from my experience in the USA no one is willing to compromise on the fact that I'll do it my way and eventually you'll do what i tell you to cause i am the customer.

There is a segment of the population that refuse to follow rules. It's like they are one step out of beat with everyone else. Combine that with a flight attendant who firmly believes "You'll do it the way I tell you to or you'll get nothing" and this is what you get. It becomes a contest of the wills and the drink is no longer a consideration. Who gets their own way is.

Now the bathroom antics, humph. Remember the company CEO who a few years ago urinated and took a dump on a food service cart on a South America to New York flight?

Passenger Jailed: "Abominable" Behaviour In-Flight (by Singapore_Air Dec 18 2003 in Civil Aviation)

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: baexecutive
Posted 2013-05-04 18:15:41 and read 18583 times.

Quoting strangr (Reply 8):

Only in America!!! This guy must have more time on his hands than sense. A few things to consider -

1) Why was he so reluctant to use the process VX have in place to order a drink? Was he intoxicated or on drugs?
2) Why did the crew call the police here, was he verbally abusing them? Threatening behaviour?
3) Where are the other passengers accounts of what has happened?
4) Why did VX offer compensation?

People do need to remember that crew are here primarily to ensure the safety of the aircraft and customers within, not just a flying waiter/waitress who will obey everything a customer asks of them, in an emergency situation, customers need to know thst the crew are in control of the cabin.

Of course if the customer requests a drink and is either unfamiliar or simply requests not to use the automated service then they should have been offered one in the first place. At the end of the day the ordering service is in place for the convenience of the customer ie if it is not convenient to use it then offer an alternative.....simples.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: SocalApproach
Posted 2013-05-04 19:13:37 and read 18317 times.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 9):
I think requiring a passenger to order a soda or make any other request electronically is stupid and ludicrous.

However VX does NOT require any guest to use the RED system to order drinks or food. If a guest presses the call button a inflight teammember will assist the guest with whatever he/she needs and that includes ordering. I have seen it first hand where a teammember will just come to that guest seat and then come back with whatever that guest wanted from the back. Everyone has to understand how ludicrous this sounds to say that electronic ordering is a requirement because that doesn't help VX in promoting guest service which is what VX is all about. You would have to think there is a certain crowd VX is missing out on with such a ridiculous requirement meaning elderly folks. There is a scripted line the inflight teamleader reads after passing 10,000 feet that is along the lines of "we will stay out of your way throughout the flight but just press the call button if you needs and WE will be there" There is no policy or line that is said to guest that ordering from the RED system is a requirement. It is simply a convenience and a very good one at that.

Also to note I have seen first hand where a guest wanted to order a premium drink and they were not sure how to go about doing on the RED system and I saw the inflight teammember order it herself from a vacant seat right behind the guest, slide the credit card herself and get the guest her drink. Very simple and I am sure this happens from time to time. Not every guest is 20 years old and has an iphone,ipad i-whatever.... This guy has no case. I don't know much about suing anyone but maybe this guy is trying to get a much bigger settlement. I hope he gets nothing at all now.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-05-04 19:40:13 and read 18174 times.

Even if everything transpired as the passenger described it (which is possible, but I doubt), that still doesn't merit suing the airline. He's outed himself as a Grade-A Idiot.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: SR117
Posted 2013-05-04 20:20:11 and read 17994 times.

Sounds fishy to me, I doubt the crew would have gone through the whole trouble of calling the police on this guy if all he did was refuse to order through the IFE's order system. He probably had to do something really irritating for the crew to act the way they did. Doing anything of the sort adds to the workload of everyone involved so it seems strange that they would have done it for nothing.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: Jetsgo
Posted 2013-05-04 21:17:43 and read 17430 times.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
However, always two sides to a story...

Three sides.

The fact that VX offered $3k and then $5k gives SOME merit to the loser passenger complaints.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-04 21:30:08 and read 17265 times.

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 2):
After working in the industry I tend to believe the employee over the passenger.

I am sure most passengers would feel differently. Flight attendants with attitudes and on power trips are not uncommon, sadly.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Wow. Well I doubt the crew would call the police on him for nothing...

Well, apparently it was for nothing since no charges were filed, safety or security was not at risk, and the airline offered compensation for the incident.

Oh wait -- maybe they called the police because he supposedly did not flush the toilet. Don't we all know that is a crime these days?

Quoting strangr (Reply 8):
The customer was asked to do it as per policy

There is no such policy. Ordering through the IFE system is an OPTION, it is not a requirement.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 9):
The airline should have offered the passenger an apology in writing and paid him the money it originally offered and guaranteed the passenger NO record of the incident would appear in any police or other record that would name or involve the passenger. In other words, the incident should have been "expunged" at the airlines expense. I think the passenger would have accepted it.. I would have, but most likely never fly on that airline again. Involving the police had to be the stupidest thing that could have be done. The airline employees need to be reeducated in passenger relations. The police have better and more important things to handle than petty stupidity. Safety of flight or the crew was never involved

Exactly! Well said!

[Edited 2013-05-04 21:38:00]

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-05-04 21:34:28 and read 17219 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
that still doesn't merit suing the airline.

I guess that even if the airline's version of events is true, the police would be reluctant to press charges on the basis of "he said, she said." Were there independent witnesses to the "profanities"? Can they prove he didn't flush the lavatory and is that a criminal offence?

On the other hand, if what he claims is true, the shameful behaviour of a crew member who was too lazy to serve a drink, followed by lies told about him to the police when the Captain supports the view that he did not pose a risk to the crew, certainly does warrant an apology. According to the report, no apology was offered but an offer of hush money was made.

Then again, the whole story could be made up. We all know how friendly, cheerful and helpful customer service is the airline's first priority. Despite offering money to go away, the airline spokeswoman says, "and after reviewing the facts of this particular case, we believe our team handled the matter appropriately."

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: milemaster
Posted 2013-05-04 22:05:50 and read 16912 times.

Quoting strangr (Reply 8):
Typical American attitude I think

Fascinating. Hundreds of thousands of Americans get on planes all over the world every day. I look forward to reading the thousands of other in-flight incidents that took place that same day as a result of the typical American attitude. Of course I have to sort through the tens of millions of inflight incidents that took place over the past year first to catch up.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: AY104
Posted 2013-05-04 22:27:40 and read 16701 times.

Not just typical American attitude any more....all over the world now, it seems. Thanks to globalization so many people everywhere act inappopriately.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: MillwallSean
Posted 2013-05-04 22:55:13 and read 16466 times.

Isnt this typical opportunistic legals suits. he sees a chance to make some money. Have some lawyer company handle it all for him for 35% of the money he can make etc?

The fact that Virgin offered him compensation (3000 or 5000 which to me is a large amount) tells me he must have some merit to his claim. They wouldnt offer him such an amount unless they know something isnt right here.

Again what I cant understand is how a trained service professional ends up in a situation like this over such a trivial thing?
I mean the FA is trained in service, its her/his main purpose onboard this flight (unless an emergency situation develops then the primary tasks shifts). If the passenger refuses to use the system, just do it for him, smile and explain that its company policy with the system and that if not done that way the company might suspect the FA of being dishonest, smile five more times, excuse yourself for leaning over the passenger when making the order using his system. Ask three questions about his day, his work while doing it. Constantly smile.
Problem solved.
Professional attitude and service isn't that hard and over a situation like this I cant for the life of me understand why it gets so completely out of hand. A professional should never let it reach this level.
if the day has been rough, the passengers hell, then walk away for 1 minute and take 10 deep breaths and return and make the order, make a silly excuse smile and think of the paycheck, the family or whatever. Its just a job.


What always fascinates me is
A. people saying flight attendants are there for security purposes mainly. (I have yet to meet one senior airline manager that agrees with that point. Hint most waitresses at a cruiseship also participate in an evacuation - few of us believe they are mainly on board for safety...)
Security is one important part of the work as an FA. But it sure isn't the main reason airlines hire flight attendants or the main task expected from that profession.
I have come to believe that the indoctrination of security as such an important point for US based flight attendants is the major reason we see so many of these instances happening in the US. The idea that service first, second and third seemed to have been forgotten in all this security talk.

Calling the police for this should result in another lawsuit. the police actually have more important things to do in society than handle arguments between two adults behaving like kids in a playground. Disgraceful use of public resources.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-04 23:13:08 and read 16318 times.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 20):
Security is one important part of the work as an FA. But it sure isn't the main reason airlines hire flight attendants or the main task expected from that profession.

The main tasks of FAs all over the world are Safety AND Service. Both EQUALLY important. But in some parts of the world, especially the US, the Safety part is now too often taken as an excuse to justify poor or no service. The balance has been lost.

Of course there are exceptions, such as the lovely Delta crew I had on JFK-LHR last month. But unfortunately these fantastic FAs are let down by their power-tripping colleagues who given them all a bad name.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: koruman
Posted 2013-05-04 23:18:20 and read 16248 times.

The passenger's attitude of entitlement is obnoxious, obviously. The airline would be within its rights to refuse to transport him ever again.

However, this lawsuit is not about soda. It's about vengeful cabin crew misusing actions intended for terrorists as a means of getting revenge against an obnoxious passenger. And that is not okay, and insults the memory of the victims of actual terrorism.

The shadow of 9/11 has left US aircrews with the power to settle vendettas with concocted claims of threats or suspicious behaviour.

There need to be checks and balances. And devastating consequences for airline employees crying "Wolf" to settle scores.

Obviously 99.999% of passenger hostility or threats are witnessed by other passengers.

So the US needs a federal "Abuse of Power" law stating that any case of a pilot offloading a passenger on the say-so of cabin crew without witness corroboration from passengers not employed by the airline will lose his pilot's licence forever, without any right of appeal, face a long custodial prison sentence for his own act of air piracy, and pay a seven figure fine. Similar sanctions should apply to the cabin crew involved.

At the moment, it's too easy for a flight attendant who is tired and annoyed by a passenger to settle the argument by invoking anti-terror measures. There is no disincentive.

But if it was going to cost the person their livelihood, their life-savings and a long stretch in jail, they just might conclude that no, this annoying passenger cannot be taught a lesson by being treated as a suspected terrorist.

[Edited 2013-05-04 23:23:03]

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-04 23:26:28 and read 16181 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 22):
The passenger's attitude of entitlement is obnoxious, obviously. The airline would be within its rights to refuse to transport him ever again.

Why? They offered him compensation so there is some acknowledgment they screwed up. Are you suggesting they ban him for daring to file a lawsuit (however opportunistic the lawsuit may seem to us)?

Quoting koruman (Reply 22):
However, this lawsuit is not about soda. It's about vengeful cabin crew misusing actions intended for terrorists as a means of getting revenge against an obnoxious passenger. And that is not okay, and insults the memory of the victims of actual terrorism.

Agree 1000%!

Quoting koruman (Reply 22):
the US needs a federal "Abuse of Power" law stating that any case of a pilot offloading a passenger on the say-so of cabin crew without witness corroboration from passengers not employed by the airline will lose his pilot's licence forever, without any right of appeal, face a long custodial prison sentence for his own act of air piracy, and pay a seven figure fine. Similar sanctions should apply to the cabin crew involved.

Very extreme  , but again I agree 1000% with the underlying point you are making.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: 737tdi
Posted 2013-05-04 23:45:08 and read 16054 times.

Quoting strangr (Reply 8):
Typical American attitude I think.

The customer was asked to do it as per policy, but refused and again pressed the call button even after being asked to do it said way.

Its not that hard really to follow the rules, but from my experience in the USA no one is willing to compromise on the fact that I'll do it my way and eventually you'll do what i tell you to cause i am the customer.

$500k lawsuit again typical American attitude, this would be laughed at all the way to the footpath in Australia, but again this keep an over litigated society employed.




Really, you want to attack an entire nation for one idiots indiscretions? You don't know me and I don't know you and we will never meet but that is the most asinine comment I have ever heard. You don't have Idiots in Australia? Visit and you will see exactly what America is like. I am not talking NY or SF, visit the people and places that make this country what it is. I take offense to that comment and hope you get a chance to visit the real America.

I have visited your country several times and find that y''all are full of less then spectacular people yourselves.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-04 23:57:17 and read 16296 times.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 24):
You don't have Idiots in Australia? Visit and you will see exactly what America is like. I am not talking NY or SF, visit the people and places that make this country what it is. I take offense to that comment and hope you get a chance to visit the real America.
Quoting 737tdi (Reply 24):
I have visited your country several times and find that y''all are full of less then spectacular people yourselves.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Was with you till I read the second quote above.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: shufflemoomin
Posted 2013-05-05 00:46:00 and read 15849 times.

I actually agree with the passenger here. He's not suing because they didn't bring him a soda, he's suing because he claims they made up lies and had him detained by the police. He must have belief in his actions or he wouldn't take it to court. If he was lying about what he did, I doubt he'd want it under the close scrutiny of a lawsuit. Besides, even if does turn out that he swore at the crew, that's STILL no reason to call the police and have him detained. How over-sensitive can people be? I actually hope he wins, because I'm getting incredibly tired of US cabin crew acting like they're special human beings who are allowed to call the police for every little incident or believing that they have some sort of power over the public.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-05-05 01:11:36 and read 15706 times.

well, this story depends on hear-say. But if it is true that a FA pointed at the passenger and then at the screen, motioning him to order his soda that way, this would be extremely bad manner.

Running an airline is still a service industry and passengers are guests who pay the salary of the flight attendants and the pilots. Ordering through a screen is an option, asking the FA politely for a soda is another option. Passengers are not trained monkeys. Actually, such a behaviour by an empöloyee is an insult to the passenger.

I would indeed also express my dis-satisfaction should that happen to me. I would tell that politely of course. if that leads to an interview by half a dozen armed cops at the destnaiton airport, suing the airline would be more than reasonable.

.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: toobz
Posted 2013-05-05 01:53:18 and read 15338 times.

Shuffle..unfortunately in the US people bring frivolous lawsuits to court every day and all day. Even if they don't have a claim, they hope for the company they are suing to settle out of court due to negative publicity and at least get some kind of pay check.
It's a very sad system but it was designed that way.

It's laughable at best to us for foreigners but after living in the states for over 20 years I guess I'm getting used to ridiculousness lol

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: VCy
Posted 2013-05-05 02:05:53 and read 15218 times.

Wow all this mess just for a soda! Sounds like someone needs to get a life... Just let it go! Don't they have real problems to deal with? Seeking 500k because they told him to use the remote to order. They could also have to do this because the company wants to keep track of the stock? I'm just guessing.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-05-05 02:12:10 and read 15149 times.

Quoting VCy (Reply 29):
Seeking 500k because they told him to use the remote to order.

He is not suing because he was told to use a remote ordering system. He is suing because they allegedly caused him to be detained by the police and lied to them about him. If the allegations are true, unless you think that defamation is acceptable behaviour from a service provider, that seems a pretty good reason to sue .

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: raffik
Posted 2013-05-05 02:25:30 and read 15026 times.

I think it's a stupid policy to force people to use the onboard system to purchase a drink.
What about the elderly, visually impaired or somebody who just does not know how to use the system?
Odd that an airline would make it awkward for a customer to spend their money onboard!

However, I do think security has gone over the top in America. Arranging for police officers to caution the
man upon arrival is a gross misuse of power and resources. Surely the crew onboard are supposed to be
trained in dealing with problematic passengers. It reminds me of a person on here kicked off a flight for
taking a picture in the cabin and then claiming that the guy was rude and abusive to the crew when he wasn't.

I understand that crew should not have to put up with bad behaviour but you get this in all instances where somebody has to work with the general public. Since 9/11 America is understandably on edge but it was 12 years ago, time to ease off and get on with life now.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: HELFAN
Posted 2013-05-05 03:31:51 and read 14493 times.

Quoting milemaster (Reply 18):
What always fascinates me is
A. people saying flight attendants are there for security purposes mainly. (I have yet to meet one senior airline manager that agrees with that point. Hint most waitresses at a cruiseship also participate in an evacuation - few of us believe they are mainly on board for safety...)
Security is one important part of the work as an FA. But it sure isn't the main reason airlines hire flight attendants or the main task expected from that profession.
I have come to believe that the indoctrination of security as such an important point for US based flight attendants is the major reason we see so many of these instances happening in the US. The idea that service first, second and third seemed to have been forgotten in all this security talk.

  

It's not only in the US - unfortunately. Very much the same over here. Once I discussed it with an F/A and according to her this was explicitly told to them in their training. Some members of the crew then seem to take that literally as if they couldn't be combined. Of course safety is of primary importance but it does not need to come at the cost of service. I just think the passengers here in Northern Europe are more quiet and shy to challenge the crew with such an attitude and therefore there are not so many reports of such incidents

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: jedward
Posted 2013-05-05 04:50:02 and read 13855 times.

Can anyone comment on what the actual VX policy is?

Per the article it would appear the policy is for a FA to take a drink order "one-on-one" if a customer elected not to use the console.

Quote:
"Not long after, Bevivino said he called Virgin Customer Service and asked for their ordering policy on flights. "I was told that if I elect not to use the console, the flight attendant has to provide you with one-on-one service," he said."

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-05-05 05:25:07 and read 13548 times.

I don't even see the basis for the action. Half a million dollars just because you don't get soda? That is nuts.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: DexSwart
Posted 2013-05-05 05:32:44 and read 13459 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 34):
I don't even see the basis for the action. Half a million dollars just because you don't get soda? That is nuts.

What is nuts is that this guy is getting his 15 minutes of fame out of it.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 05:59:04 and read 13225 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 34):
I don't even see the basis for the action. Half a million dollars just because you don't get soda? That is nuts.

Okay, so you think VX would have offered him $3,000 in compensation if it was really only about not giving him soda?

Obviously it is about the way he was treated during and after the soda incident -- especially after the flight landed.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: nightfox365
Posted 2013-05-05 06:04:08 and read 13150 times.

The guy just wants a quick way to get rich. It is a typical way to get rich, make a phony lawsuit and hope the ruling goes in your favor. I just hope the judge sees sense, and throws it out.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 06:09:25 and read 13121 times.

Quoting nightfox365 (Reply 37):
The guy just wants a quick way to get rich. It is a typical way to get rich, make a phony lawsuit and hope the ruling goes in your favor. I just hope the judge sees sense, and throws it out.

So based on what is known, which part of the lawsuit is phony? We may not agree with it or with the amount, but clearly he is not making the incident up.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: nightfox365
Posted 2013-05-05 06:18:54 and read 13022 times.

He is asking for 500K after being asked twice to use the seat back screen to order a soda? Which most likely costs only a few dollars? He is also claiming he has depression, you don't get depression from that. People make a lot of things up just to make a quick buck, they want to make things sound worse then they actually were. He has blown what could have easily been made a lot easier if he had just followed the instructions.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 06:24:52 and read 12948 times.

Quoting nightfox365 (Reply 39):

You appear to have missed the point completely. Quite obviously the lawsuit is not about the soda. And it is not like he is making the incident up.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-05 06:35:27 and read 12841 times.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 34):
I don't even see the basis for the action. Half a million dollars just because you don't get soda? That is nuts.

Guys, read the article.

It has nothing to do with not getting soda.

The airline called authorities on him over his decision to not use the touch screen to order and insisting on a verbal order.

He is suing for that. Argue the merits over that. READ AN ENTIRE ARTICLE.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: koruman
Posted 2013-05-05 06:39:25 and read 12804 times.

A number of posters in this thread seem to have major comprehension deficits.

The lawsuit has nothing to do with the argument about soda.

The lawsuit claims that the crew sought to settle scores at the end of the flight by abusing anti-terror powers to have an obnoxious passenger arrested, humiliated and inconvenienced.

And as I wrote earlier, the sort of anti-terror powers available to bitter or angry flight crews in the USA require checks and balances to prevent this sort of absurd air piracy by angry crews.

If the crews cannot provide independent witnesses from the rest of the passengers on board - not including on-duty or off-duty colleagues - they need to face the severest deterrents possible: loss of their livelihood, lengthy jail sentences and seven figure fines.

If they really did abuse their powers to settle scores, a Singapore-style punishment code might be:

Pilot: 10 years jail for air piracy, $3 million fine, lifelong loss of licence.
Flight attendant: 10 years jail for air piracy, $1 million fine, lifelong ban from aviation industry.

Crews would very, very quickly learn not to abuse the anti-terror powers they have.

And if my penalties sound extreme, they are soft by Singapore standards. Crews abusing anti-terror powers there would probably also be caned, and the death penalty could potentially be sought. Consequently, even though their anti-terror laws are if anything stronger than the USA's, the crews know perfectly well not to abuse them to settle scores.

But rarely a week passes when we hear of a pilot somewhere in the USA invoking anti-terror powers to offload a high-maintenance passenger at the behest of an enraged flight attendant. And there need to be life-changing consequences for that sort of abuse of power. Jail time, unemployment and a seven figure fine. At least.

[Edited 2013-05-05 06:56:10]

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: SCQ83
Posted 2013-05-05 06:40:23 and read 12777 times.

For me there are two sides in this story.

One, the passenger probably knew beforehand that while VX asks you to order through the screen, they also have the option to do it traditionally, yet they never exercise it. So, the guy just wanted to challenge (and he was right) VX.

Then he became a bit rude (not flushing the toilet and I assume, being "ironic" about it), and the FAs called the police. The captain agrees that he never posed a security issue.

So who has overreacted? For me clearly VX. The passenger could be rude and unpolite, but I am sorry, that is the FA's job to deal with it as far as he doesn't pose a problem to the security in the flight or their own security or integrity. If you are a FA you work in a service-oriented industry and you will have to deal with rude customers. That's it. Are you going to call the police everyone is rude at you? Should hotels or restaurants call the police every time a customer argues about the service, price or anything else? This is over the top. He has a good case, otherwise VX wouldn't have offered him already a few thousand bucks.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: shufflemoomin
Posted 2013-05-05 06:46:46 and read 12733 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 42):
And as I wrote earlier, the sort of anti-terror actions available to bitter or angry flight crews in the USA require checks and balances to prevent this sort of absurd air piracy by angry crews.

Exactly. Crew like to bang on about how they're security/safety personal and have a duty of care to the aircraft, but of all these "cops were called on arrival" stories we read, how many of those actually involved issues of safety? Usually it's something minor and the crew's feelings of self-importance that were the only thing damaged. I'd be interested to know how the police feel about being called to crap like this. I mean, did they honestly call the police and say "this guy wanted a soda, he didn't flush the toilet and was rude to us"? Would you turn up if you were told that? I'm not even sure what law is claimed was broken to justify detaining him. Again, I hope he continues with the lawsuit and I hope he wins. It might make US airlines think about stopping this self-important power trip that some of its staff is on.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 08:31:13 and read 11604 times.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 44):
It might make US airlines think about stopping this self-important power trip that some of its staff is on.

I agree completely!

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-05-05 10:50:57 and read 10119 times.

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 15):
The fact that VX offered $3k and then $5k gives SOME merit to the loser passenger complaints.

Or they just don't wanna deal with paying their own lawyers to fight it

Quoting sankaps (Reply 16):
Well, apparently it was for nothing since no charges were filed, safety or security was not at risk, and the airline offered compensation for the incident.

That doesn't mean he didn't do anything, does it?

Honestly, I agree with the poster that said there are 3 sides. I think the passenger was being a jerk, I think the crew overreacted, and I think this whole lawsuit is silly. I can maybe see him getting a bit of money, probably should've taken the $3000-5000, but $500,000 is absurd and just for the nerve of that I hope he loses (unless there is something egregious we don't know about)

That all being said, we don't have enough facts obviously, so I hope the truth prevails

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-05 11:37:02 and read 9656 times.

The OP's link had this guy escorted off the plane by officers. That implies quite a bit more that we're seeing. I want to hear the other side. Either way, being rude is not worth a half million. It might be a FA's job to deal with the rude, but there are lines not to be crossed. He was given a little lesson to be more polite and for

Quoting FlyKev (Reply 3):
he original $3000 and even the $5000 VX offered this passenger seemed much more reasonable.

VX was obviously trying to cut costs avoiding a legal spat. Now its real oney Time to sue the idiot back for legal fees.


Heck, if VX delays this long enough, there won't be any money for him to take.  

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 11:43:33 and read 9592 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
The OP's link had this guy escorted off the plane by officers. That implies quite a bit more that we're seeing.

No, it says officers were waiting in the jetway.

And it implies nothing, since we have repeatedly seen FAs call the police for no reason since 9/11, using "safety" as an excuse to abuse their power against pax who may have genuine service grievances (or indeed, may just be sitting minding their own business, but appearing suspicious to others because of their ethnicity, dress, what have you).

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
VX was obviously trying to cut costs avoiding a legal spat.

Well, offering real cash (instead of miles or a service recovery voucher) suggests they realized this guy may have actually had grounds to file a case against them, and they were trying to buy him out of doing that,

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-05-05 12:45:41 and read 8955 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 48):
Well, offering real cash (instead of miles or a service recovery voucher) suggests they realized this guy may have actually had grounds to file a case against them, and they were trying to buy him out of doing that,

Wouldn't be the first time an airline has thrown real money at a frivolous claim. Again, it might not be frivolous, but no one can say there is any merit to this just based on the info we've seen

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-05-05 12:53:55 and read 8851 times.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
Nobody would know anything about this had he not made a big deal of this by filing suit and taking it to the media. The guy is a moron and and a drama queen.

He was detained for no reason. It sounds like the crew lied about what he had said.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: lweber557
Posted 2013-05-05 12:55:53 and read 8841 times.

This whole thing could have been avoided had the flight attendant just went and got him a soda. It sounds like the flight attendant handled the situation extremely rudely and unprofessionally. If it turns out that the "obscenity and bathroom incident" is proven to be fictional than that flight attendant should be fired. The passenger sounds like an asshole too and in my opinion is asking for a ridiculous amount of compensation. An apology and a free flight would be enough for his troubles.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-05-05 12:59:22 and read 8776 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
Or they just don't wanna deal with paying their own lawyers to fight it

Actually large corporations outsource legal operations to a law firm on fixed price. So it won't cost them money per case. If this guys wins again insurance company pays the amount as long as company put enough effort defending their case. They also have internal legal counsel, who is a paper tiger, never argued in front of a judge, ready to offer opinion and always want to settle. He is just good to rough up (not literally) any misbehaving employees.

Other side the business, law firms love to have large clients, unless their client wants them fight too many cases.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: BMI727
Posted 2013-05-05 13:24:40 and read 8494 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 50):
He was detained for no reason. It sounds like the crew lied about what he had said.

He obviously has ulterior motives. The guy said he was worried about having an arrest record for an incident in which he was not arrested. There was no record for him to be concerned about, so if the concern was having the incident get attention, filing a lawsuit and going to the media does the exact opposite of what he says he wants.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-05-05 13:38:48 and read 8321 times.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 52):
Actually large corporations outsource legal operations to a law firm on fixed price. So it won't cost them money per case.

For what it's worth, this isn't the type of case that is likely to be subject to the type of agreement you describe. It's too low volume and fact intensive. To your point about insurance, a lot of insurance policies don't cover defamation, if that's what he sued for. Defending it is likely to cost VX money.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: CoachClass
Posted 2013-05-05 13:41:19 and read 8300 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
well, this story depends on hear-say.

No hearsay here. You have direct witness testimony. If it goes to trial the trier of fact will determine what the facts are and who's telling the truth. The only hearsay would be the police report which could come in under an exception.

It took the third flight attendant to get the guy a free soft drink. It was in my mind an unfriendly and not service oriented crew. I've flown them a number of times between FLL and SFO and have had friendly to surly FA's. I think working in that "mood light" affects their mood! For those who haven't flown Virgin, the atmosphere is like sitting in a dark bar for 6 hours.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: AA767400
Posted 2013-05-05 15:03:21 and read 7584 times.

The guy has legit claims - and the flight attendant went too far with the whole situation. This from reading the article. The amount of money is insane, but reflects the culture here in America.

Culturally in America, I find that the flight attendant job is deemed low grade. It pays next to nothing - and you have to deal with hundreds of angry travelers everyday. When treated poorly so many times, they turn to defending their jobs by making everything a safety issue. It's a rough crowd out there, with TSA drama, and long lines - everyone's angry. Add to the fact that after doing it for so long, many become even more bitter.

This is not all flight attendants, but a good portion in my opinion fit this category. I also find most passengers today could care less about anyone else - including FAs. So it's a two way street. You got anger coming from all sides, and the end result is more and more situations like these.

Is the guy a dick? Sure. But just give him the can of soda and call it a day. Ain't nobody got time for that!

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 19:06:26 and read 6755 times.

Quoting lweber557 (Reply 51):
The passenger sounds like an asshole too and in my opinion is asking for a ridiculous amount of compensation

Filing a suit for $500,000 does not mean he thinks he will win $500,000. It is to teach the airline a lesson, to make the point that he felt humiliated. If it goes to trial, the jury will decide the actual penalty, and will adjust it up or down depending on the facts and their judgment,

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: klkla
Posted 2013-05-05 19:11:08 and read 6742 times.

This is a fairly easy issue. The company should do an in depth investigation and interview other passengers on the aircraft as well as re-interview employees to make sure they were telling the truth. If it turns out ANY of the employees lied in any way or falsified reports they should be fired immediately and appropriate charges placed against them for lying to the authorities as a message to other airline employees that this behavior will not be accepted.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-05-05 19:40:39 and read 6645 times.

Quoting klkla (Reply 58):
The company should do an in depth investigation and interview other passengers on the aircraft as well as re-interview employees to make sure they were telling the truth.

Do you really think the airline would contact other passengers, wherever they may be in the world? Is it even possible to track most of them down without violating any privacy laws?

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: type-rated
Posted 2013-05-05 20:54:53 and read 6522 times.

What I am interested in is why the F/A was so insistent that he use the onboard drink ordering system? He certainly pushed it.
Could it be that when the passengers use the system all totals are tallied up and the liquor inventory adjusted leaving the F/A with just an automated report? Could it be that if this F/A had gotten the customer a drink the normal way he would have had to complete a adjustment ticket to keep the money & liquor inventory straight?

Also, was any evidence taken? Like did someone grab a poop sample for evidence in the court room to ensure it was from the person who supposedly left it? Sorry, I just had to ask.

And good luck trying to get any passengers on that flight into a courtroom for use as witnesses. Most people involved have probably already forgotten what happened.

And finally, watch it. Some people use their poop as a weapon as we found out with that high powered guy who pooped on the food service cart in the story linked above.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-05-05 20:57:25 and read 6525 times.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 20):
The fact that Virgin offered him compensation (3000 or 5000 which to me is a large amount) tells me he must have some merit to his claim. They wouldnt offer him such an amount unless they know something isnt right here.

I disagree. If he was threatening them with legal action then $5,000 is lost change behind the couch compared to paying $100,000 in legal fees and court costs.

What's more, I agree with:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 54):
For what it's worth, this isn't the type of case that is likely to be subject to the type of agreement you describe. It's too low volume and fact intensive. To your point about insurance, a lot of insurance policies don't cover defamation, if that's what he sued for. Defending it is likely to cost VX money.
Quoting sankaps (Reply 48):
Well, offering real cash (instead of miles or a service recovery voucher) suggests they realized this guy may have actually had grounds to file a case against them

Not neccessarily. There only objective is to make him shut up and go away. If he is threatening legal action then they probably know that isn't enough. Also, their in-house counsel is a lawyer, "damages" is what they specialise in, not FF benefits.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 24):
Really, you want to attack an entire nation for one idiots indiscretions?

To be fair to strangr, the USA has more lawyers than the rest of the world combined. While broad generalizations are unfair, it is a fact that trivial litigation is more likely there.

And before you take this as an Anti-American statement,

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 24):
visit the people and places that make this country what it is

I used to live in North Carolina, I absolutely love the USA and its people. It is, honestly, my favourite country.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 24):
find that y''all are full of less then spectacular people yourselves.

Too true, but I don't see how that's relevant.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-05 21:46:48 and read 6447 times.

A Virgin America spokesperson said the company would not comment on ongoing litigation, but had reviewed the case and thought the crewmembers acted appropriately.
http://www.thedailymeal.com/man-files-500k-suit-over-airline-soda

Are we going to hear the FA's version? Why all the anger to FAs? I have not seen one abuse their authority as some imply. I've seen them do things non-professional, but in general call officers unnecessarily.

But I have seen many fraudulent lawsuits. Everyone knows not to pick a fight on a plane. If there is an issue, file a complaint. But seriously, not willing to adapt how one orders a soda? Something doesn't jive as a man who refused to use the screen for THREE FAs is obviously a troublemaker.


Quoting sankaps (Reply 48):
offering real cash (instead of miles or a service recovery voucher) suggests they realized this guy may have actually had grounds to file a case against them

Real cash? VX spent more on the lawyers making the offer. Seriously, $5000 won't pay for more than a day of lawyer time. Going to trial will get expensive quick for VX.

Quoting klkla (Reply 58):
The company should do an in depth investigation

Why should VX do a witch hunt that would demoralize crew? The case was reviewed by VX and the conduct of the FAs was found to be appropriate. VX should collect evidence so that the man gets to pay VX's legal bills... For this will get expensive quick.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-05 22:36:22 and read 6363 times.

I have enough of the defense of the FA. I understand that many on a.net are aircrews and defend their own.

But you start to forget the first rule of business: The customer is King. Why? He pays the bill.

The pax asked for a soda, big deal. The FA could have just brought him one.
We have heard now several times that ordering electronically is an option not a rule on VX.
By not bringing the soda the FA refused service.
Is that acceptable for the FA?
Is it a safety reason to refuse service? (Every strange reaction of an airliner crew seems to be explained by safety reason.)
If you get bad service on board, why is it a crime to complain on board?
A big enough crime to get arrested?

Get down to reality again. There seems to be agreement about that the FA refused to bring a soda.
First bad service than calling the police if the customer complains.

The reaction of VX is offering money but no apology. Big mistake.

The amount of 500.000 USD is understandable, every civil action in the US starts off with a crazy amount, otherwise the other side does not take it seriously.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-05-05 22:47:15 and read 6333 times.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):

Again, we're you there?? No one on here knows the full story. It sounds very fishy to me, and although I think the FA overreacted, maybe not. We can all speculate, but absolute statements shouldn't be used

It just doesn't make much sense that the crew would call the police for not flushing the toilet and not ordering the drink from the electronic menu. I'm thinking there was something else involved and it may be legitimate (I'll be honest, I'm leaning towards your side) but we can't say anything for certain. We know how woefully wrong the media can be sometimes

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-05-05 22:53:23 and read 6319 times.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):
First bad service than calling the police if the customer complains

The article is very vague on this issue, but it appears that the police were called after he used profanities against the crew. Neither I nor you know if he did or didn't, but if he did then I don't see how the crew "over-reacted".

We can not even begin to objectively assess the conduct of either party without hearing the FA's story. Either way, there seems to me that there is more to this than poor Mr Bevivino would have us believe.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):
The customer is King

I won't open a can of worms, but I don't fully agree. During normal circumstances then sure, so long as requests are reasonable.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-05 23:47:08 and read 6228 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 64):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):

Again, we're you there?? No one on here knows the full story. It sounds very fishy to me, and although I think the FA overreacted, maybe not. We can all speculate, but absolute statements shouldn't be used

It just doesn't make much sense that the crew would call the police for not flushing the toilet and not ordering the drink from the electronic menu. I'm thinking there was something else involved and it may be legitimate (I'll be honest, I'm leaning towards your side) but we can't say anything for certain. We know how woefully wrong the media can be sometimes
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 65):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):
First bad service than calling the police if the customer complains

The article is very vague on this issue, but it appears that the police were called after he used profanities against the crew. Neither I nor you know if he did or didn't, but if he did then I don't see how the crew "over-reacted".

We can not even begin to objectively assess the conduct of either party without hearing the FA's story. Either way, there seems to me that there is more to this than poor Mr Bevivino would have us believe.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 63):
The customer is King

I won't open a can of worms, but I don't fully agree. During normal circumstances then sure, so long as requests are reasonable.

We only have the article, the airline will not comment.

The question is really is the ordering through the red system optional? Several posts here do say so.
If it is optional the FA starts out in the wrong and it is a bad service issue.
I went to the homepage of VX and I found out that you can not use cash and that a soda is provided free of charge.
In FAQ it is not mentioned, if the red system is the only way to order.
My father, still traveling widely being 92 years old, would never use an electronic system.
As you do not have to pay for a soda, I find it strange that the FA did not just bring one.

What I also find suspicious is, the police coming, talking to everybody for a while and disappearing again.

In all my own travels I have found 99.9% of the FAs to be friendly, helpful and all around nice, but there are the 0.1 or something %.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 01:19:11 and read 6097 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 62):
Why all the anger to FAs? I have not seen one abuse their authority as some imply.

You are incredibly lucky. I have been at the receiving end myself for having had the temerity to try to explain to the Lead FA that the hand-written seat number on my BP was hand-written by the gate agent, not by me. She called me a liar and threatened to call the cops!

I have also witnessed several incidents of crew abusing their authority. As I have said before, it is a minority of cabin crew who do this, but it gives them all a bad name.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 62):
Real cash? VX spent more on the lawyers making the offer. Seriously, $5000 won't pay for more than a day of lawyer time. Going to trial will get expensive quick for VX.

But if they are confident of winning, then the pax will likely have to pay damages and costs. So why worry if they have a strong case?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 62):
Why should VX do a witch hunt that would demoralize crew? The case was reviewed by VX and the conduct of the FAs was found to be appropriate.

Absolutely does not gel with the fact VX offered the pax $3-5k as cash compensation. If all threats of lawsuits without merit resulted in such offers, then VX would be bankrupt even sooner than we expect!

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-05-06 02:04:13 and read 6031 times.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 66):
As you do not have to pay for a soda, I find it strange that the FA did not just bring one.

If that much is true, then we agree 100% that the conduct of the FA is not on.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 66):
What I also find suspicious is, the police coming, talking to everybody for a while and disappearing again.

True, although it could be a case of evidence. He said - she said cases aren't looked favorably upon by prosecutors, at least not in Australia (jurisdiction I have knowledge about).

Also, we are again taking the customer's word at face value. For a start maybe there are criminal proceedings being considered that he (or his lawyer) doesn't want to share with the media because it would harm his case. I agree that seems unlikely, but even so who's to say that a police officer who attended the scene won't be called as evidence by the airline? (NB: I'm not sure if that is possible in civil proceedings in California)

Quoting sankaps (Reply 67):
the pax will likely have to pay damages and costs. So why worry if they have a strong case?

In normal life I would agree with you, but that's not how the legal mind works. Get done with the case and you don't have to bother with the court room at all. Even if the airline has a solid case from a legal perspective, who's to say that a jury won't buy into the story of poor, beaten, downtrooden customer vs big, bad, evil corporation? There are too many unknowns with going to court.

Incidentally, I'd say that the nominal damages of $5,000 prove that the airline's lawyers think that they will win. If they didn't they would offer something like $50-100,000 in damages in return for settlement.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-05-06 02:48:32 and read 5963 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 65):

The article is very vague on this issue, but it appears that the police were called after he used profanities against the crew. Neither I nor you know if he did or didn't, but if he did then I don't see how the crew "over-reacted".

even if, it hardly justifies a police presence in that size.

Pointing at the guy and at the screen is rude behaviour of an employee in a service industry. If a waiter in a restaurant does that, you should leave the place. Similar to the question "Whaddayawant? To which the correct answer is_ friendly service.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 65):
. During normal circumstances then sure,

what is "unnormal" about the circumstances? Passengers have passed security, just want to go from A to B and feel thirsty so they order a soda. If a regular passenger who has been screened in an already questionable procedure poses a threat to aviation per se, I can only recommend to handcuff and chain all pax as a precaution and gang march them on and off the fliught.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 02:53:25 and read 5953 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 69):
If a regular passenger who has been screened in an already questionable procedure poses a threat to aviation per se, I can only recommend to handcuff and chain all pax as a precaution and gang march them on and off the fliught.

Shhhhh....! Don't give them ideas!  

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: Eagleboy
Posted 2013-05-06 03:11:45 and read 5913 times.

"noting that he has since experienced, "depression, worry, and anxiety surrounding his detention by law enforcement."................

Really? How sensitive is this guy. He was asked to wait and answer some questions, then allowed to make he way on after 20 mins.

"............ "They're being given too much power. That's what concerns me. The only thing I have is my reputation. Lies just irk me........."

I think this media story will ruin his reputation more than any internal airline record.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-05-06 03:15:13 and read 5901 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 69):
what is "unnormal" about the circumstances?

Swearing at crew? That amounts to verbal abuse.

And happy Anet birthday  

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-05-06 03:53:35 and read 5832 times.

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 71):
Really? How sensitive is this guy. He was asked to wait and answer some questions, then allowed to make he way on after 20 mins.

I have never been questioned by police in my life, never held for any amount of time. If that story had happened to me I would sue them as well. That has nothing to do with being sensitive

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 72):
And happy Anet birthday

Thanks, would not have noticed that.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 72):
Swearing at crew? That amounts to verbal abuse.

yes, and what? If you are mis-treated by a crew member, assuming that it is correct that a FA pointed at the paqssenger and then at the screen, assuming that this passenger sweared at this crew member, that would be a spontaneous and normal reaction.

Swearing at a a crew member has nothing to do with the safety of the flight.

The whole problem in America is, that laws which have been passed after 9/11 to fight air piracy and terrorism are applied to normal passengers. However, neither is a rude FA nor a passenger reaction to rudeness of FAs anything close to be a threat to aviation or terrorrism.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2013-05-06 04:42:15 and read 5749 times.

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 12):
I have seen first hand where a guest wanted to order a premium drink and they were not sure how to go about doing on the RED system and I saw the inflight teammember order it herself from a vacant seat right behind the guest, slide the credit card herself and get the guest her drink. Very simple

Very simple? Very simple would be to take the dollar bill(s) and bring back her drink. This is like a scene from a Dilbert cartoon when people sitting in the same room are sending e-mails to each other instead of just talking. Infantile fascination with gadgets which in the end does not makes things any easier.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 44):
I'd be interested to know how the police feel about being called to crap like this.

I was thinking about the same thing... what a PITA it must be to be a cop assigned at an airport when most of your shift you have to deal eiter with products of power tripping flight attendands and/or the abuse of power by the clowns from the TSA. What a relief it must be to have the opportunity to jump in a patrol car and go for a while harrass a bunch of planespotters conducting "suspicious" activity at the fence perimeter.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73):
The whole problem in America is, that laws which have been passed after 9/11 to fight air piracy and terrorism are applied to normal passengers. However, neither is a rude FA nor a passenger reaction to rudeness of FAs anything close to be a threat to aviation or terrorrism.

+1

[Edited 2013-05-06 04:46:58]

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: jfk787nyc
Posted 2013-05-06 05:13:22 and read 5688 times.

Ok, It seems that alot of people here are missing the point the passenger is trying to make -

The passenger was working on his computer as he usually does on VX - instead of ordering on the screen he might of seen the flight attendant and tried to order a soda - She refused to provide him the soda.

What if this particular customer flies VX from San Francisco to Philadelphia frequently and always on VX and this is the first time ever they refused to serve him? If he flew 25 times on VX and this particular situation got him very mad that all of a sudden they cannot get him a soda and the other attendants backed up the flight attendant that was wrong and made a huge scene on the airplane trying to prove that the passenger was a disturbance going all the way to stopping the plane and not letting anyone off until a Airport Police Officer escorts the passenger first off of the airplane?

I see this all the time, But honestly I see it more often on non-unionized airlines such as VX, Spirit, Jetblue and Airtran.
I travel at least 5 times a month for business for the last 10 years and I have seen my share of things the last couple of years.

I myself got into a fight with a Delta gate agent boarding my flight to Miami just two weeks ago - It was 8am and I just arrived from an overseas trip, and there were a million people trying to board - I am a Delta Diamond and when they called priority boarding I happened to be on the other side of the ropes of regular boarding, I asked the gate agent to please open the rope for me and my pregnant wife to board and he flat out said no go around and I went off on him, When I picked up the rope myself and I gave him my boarding pass he did not want to take it and started general boarding without even looking at me. I ended up taking out my Diamond card and made a huge deal about it out of principal - I am sorry but when situations like this occur there should be a certain line of customer service

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-05-06 05:21:25 and read 5676 times.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73):
Swearing at a a crew member has nothing to do with the safety of the flight

I refer to the VX Conditions of Carriage:

Quote:
Any Guest whose conduct is disorderly, offensive, harassing, abusive or
violent, or:
a. Commits, or threatens to commit, any act which would be detrimental to
the safety of any Virgin America flight and/or its Guests or Team
Members;
b. Appears to be intoxicated or under the influence of illegal drugs;
c. Attempts to, or has been known to attempt to, interfere with any member
of the flight crew; or
d. Refuses to obey instructions from any flight crew member or to comply
with federal regulations or security directives
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73):
a FA pointed at the paqssenger and then at the screen, assuming that this passenger sweared at this crew member, that would be a spontaneous and normal reaction.

I'm not sure that I agree that swearing at an FA is the appropriate conduct in such a situation, but that's a discussion for another time and place.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-05-06 05:30:27 and read 5645 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 76):
I'm not sure that I agree that

yes and everyone who is under the affluence of incahol should not pose as a flight attendant.

Rude behavior by a person (FA) can provoke a rude reaction., Simple fact of life .

I have heard someone quoting Sch.. LH which equals F... VX or similar and no police came., This is a simple matter for the cabin manager , chief purser or whatever he or she is called to say a few friendly words and calm down the situation.

Even police in Germany is trained to de-escalate any given situation before bringing out force.

Forcing that passenger and possibly others to wait in an aircraft until police gets there is the opposite of de-escalation. .

And - are you seriously telling me that a passenger has to "obey" the instructions of a FA to order his drink via a touch screen instead of the FA saying simply acknolwedging with a polite "of course sir" and serving the soda?

Just look at my reply 73 and apply some common sense, please.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 05:33:15 and read 5644 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 76):
I refer to the VX Conditions of Carriage:

... which is why, I guess, passengers need lawyers to fight for their rights. Otherwise everything is justified by pointing to the small print.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-06 05:54:04 and read 5593 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 72):
Swearing at crew? That amounts to verbal abuse.

  
This guy is acting as if charges were pressed!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 73):
I have never been questioned by police in my life, never held for any amount of time. If that story had happened to me I would sue them as well.

First, happy a.net 8 years!

Its standard practice in the USA for the police to question if there was an event that was perceived as an altercation. That way, if there is a lawsuit later, there is a record. Did the officer file the information? Has anyone paid the $2/page and is willing to scan so we can read it?

Quoting jfk787nyc (Reply 75):
What if this particular customer flies VX from San Francisco to Philadelphia frequently and always on VX and this is the first time ever they refused to serve him?

Unlikely. Two flight attendants refused. That implies VX proceedure.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 76):
I refer to the VX Conditions of Carriage:

Quote:
Any Guest whose conduct is disorderly, offensive, harassing, abusive or
violent, or:

I'm glad that this happened. People are getting RUDE and need to be reminded they have responsibilities under the contract of carriage.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 77):
And - are you seriously telling me that a passenger has to "obey" the instructions of a FA to order his drink via a touch screen instead of the FA saying simply acknolwedging with a polite "of course sir" and serving the soda?

If the process is to use the screen to order (e.g, for tracking purposes), than that is how one gets a soda. We're starting to see that in restaurants (very rare as of yet in the US, but my brother LOVES those restaurants in Japan). This is done so that route by route the airline knows the customer preferences and thus can stock fewer drinks on board which saves fuel. Every kg saved is $500 dollars per decade saved. While that might not sound like much, airlines must improve their margins.

If you want agreement that this could have been handled better, the answer is I agree. But turning down reasonable first offers shows this man is greedy. In no way was a $500,000 offense committed. Unfortunately, here in the USA, verbal abusers use lawsuits to get back at people they have abused. Its a situation where they need power control. We need to stop rewarding bad behavior.

Ironically, my verbally abusing (classic case) ex-wife loves VX. Actually, so do her verbally abusing friends and relatives... Unfortunately I have learned far too much about verbal abuse. For those who want to know more, start with Patricia Even's "The Verbally Abusive Relationship."

Quoting sankaps (Reply 78):
I guess, passengers need lawyers to fight for their rights.

A right such as other passengers not having to hear his abuse? How would you have felt if you were on that flight with your children? I judge people by if their behavior is something I want my children to copy. This man obviously isn't worth emulating.

The poor FAs, they go through hell. Saying its their job isn't the same as making it easy. Be polite. I am. There is no need bo bully the FAs. I'm amazed how service improves with a compliment and a smile. On my last flight, I fell asleep and woke up to find a 'bag of goodies" for my girls. (I had talked about my kids with the FA for about 20 seconds.)


Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-05-06 05:58:48 and read 5585 times.

"Loyalty. It's hard to earn, and easy to lose. We promise to always keep that in mind when serving you, constantly striving to give you the kind of Virgin America experience you came to us for in the first place.

"Our goal is to always provide you with an unforgettable experience that adds value to your trip. One that is included in your best travel memories, nestled right next to your first trip to the beach and your photo at the Statue of Liberty.

"If there ever comes a time when we're not being as Virgin America as we could, we will do everything in our power to remedy the situation and put a smile back on your face."

and

"Virgin America ... is on a mission to make flying good again,"

Such is the blurb on the VX web site. This clear implication is that VX offers a welcoming experience combined with a high standard of customer service. It is therefore reasonable on the part of the customer to expect a simple request to be met without fuss.

As a matter of interest, are "implied conditions of contract" recognised in US law? An implied condition may be one that is based on custom or be so obvious that it need not be spelt out. In any service orientated business the customer normally expects courteous service, and the excerpts from the VX web site would tend to reinforce that expectation with regard to the services that they offer. If US law recognises implied conditions, then it could be argued that VX were in breach of their own contract and that the claimant is entitled to compensation for the allegedly rough treatment he suffered at their hands.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-05-06 06:17:58 and read 5532 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
If the process is to use the screen to order (e.g, for tracking purposes), than that is how one gets a soda. We're starting to see that in restaurants (very rare as of yet in the US,

It I about "obedience" and the conditions of contract. In case of emergency, it makes perfect sense to follow the instructions of the FA. If a FA asks me to pull down the window shades, I do it.

If a FA points first at me and then at the screen I not not have to be "obedient" , neither by the conditions of contract nor by common sense. An aircraft is not a gimmick restaurant one goes to by choice. I select restaurants for the quality of food and avoid gimmicks and high towers because of that. I fly because I want to go from A to B and if I am thirsty i ask a FA to bring me a soda. I do not want a FA teachiung me how to order something.

BTW, If I had been the passenger and school mastered in that way I would have thought that she could, well, you know what, and done without that damn soda.



.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-06 06:28:08 and read 5521 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
Unlikely. Two flight attendants refused. That implies VX proceedure.

Why, the soda is free according to website of VX. No payment involved.

Several posts stated that the ordering by the red system is optional.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-05-06 06:30:58 and read 5515 times.

Gimme a break. Another guy trying for a money grab. Hope he loses and gets hit with court costs. Three thousand was absurd--five thousand a joke. HINT: the crew will win every time. If the captain calls for the authorities it is an official incident.

I have said it before and I will say it again--just make life easy on yourself and comply with instructions. With air travel on full planes with little private space we are all stressed out and it is too easy for someone to snap. Those video touch consoles are a godsend--USE THEM! VX spent a fortune putting them in just for this purpose because it prioritizes requests and people get served in the order requested.

Kind of reminds me of when I am in the grocery store with a carton of milk and one or two other items in the "Ten items or less" express lane and the person in front of me has a full shopping cart. I am playing by the rules--why can't you? (Slightly off topic but don't you think that should be a capital offense? Especially when they wait for the whole order to be rung and THEN start digging for their CHECKBOOK!)

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-05-06 06:39:17 and read 5471 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
Gimme a break.

You're right, why shouldn't we all be trained monkeys instead of responsible citizens. Do what the head monkey tells you.

Now, jump out of that door....

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-05-06 06:46:54 and read 5446 times.

What happened to common sense approach to deal with rude passengers. FA could wear nauseous perfume(believe it or not, there is a top 10 list), tell passenger "No Problem, I will order for you, but I have to do from your terminal", spend five minutes ordering as he is drowns in awful smell, once is nauseated, charge $8.99 for ginger ale(he already got his free soda). I could have added one more thing, but I guess all VX FAs are good looking.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 06:55:55 and read 5421 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
Unlikely. Two flight attendants refused. That implies VX proceedure.

Incorrect. It is not a required procedure, it is an option. As has been pointed out by several people earlier in this thread.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
I'm glad that this happened. People are getting RUDE and need to be reminded they have responsibilities under the contract of carriage.

So when FAs are rude, people have to just shut up and accept it? As they do not have anything in the CoC protecting their rights, Iguess it is no surprise they are turning to other legal options!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
If the process is to use the screen to order (e.g, for tracking purposes), than that is how one gets a soda.

For goodness sake, repeating this repeatedly does not make this claim accurate. The screen process is an OPTION!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
In no way was a $500,000 offense committed

The amount of the lawsuit is not the same thing as the amount that will be awarded by a jury. The amount is to express outrage at being met by the police for this incident.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
HINT: the crew will win every time. If the captain calls for the authorities it is an official incident.

Got data to back that up?

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
I have said it before and I will say it again--just make life easy on yourself and comply with instructions.

It would be so much better for society in general if customer facing staff with attitudes such as this just found another line of work.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
Those video touch consoles are a godsend--USE THEM! VX spent a fortune putting them in just for this purpose because it prioritizes requests and people get served in the order requested.

Again, they are NOT required, they are an OPTION!

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
Kind of reminds me of when I am in the grocery store with a carton of milk and one or two other items in the "Ten items or less" express lane and the person in front of me has a full shopping cart. I am playing by the rules--why can't you?

Completely irrelevant and pointless analogy, as there is NO RULE that requires VX customers to order by the IFE system only.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 07:27:22 and read 5332 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
A right such as other passengers not having to hear his abuse? How would you have felt if you were on that flight with your children? I judge people by if their behavior is something I want my children to copy. This man obviously isn't worth emulating.

So you somehow know for a fact that this guy was verbally abusing, and doing it loud enough for others to hear? I guess like TS sufferer "screaming" the word "bomb" as was claimed on the other thread? Why is it that for so many airline employees, the customer is always wrong and his / her story is always not credible?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 79):
Be polite. I am. There is no need bo bully the FAs.

Works both ways. I am always polite, please, thank you, smiles etc -- and I can tell you that more often than not, when I smile and say "Thank You" there is no acknowledgement of any kind whatsoever. When there is, I am delighted!

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: CoachClass
Posted 2013-05-06 07:34:49 and read 5304 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
HINT: the crew will win every time. If the captain calls for the authorities it is an official incident.

Not so fast. The police investigated, presumably got witness statements from the crew and if necessary from other passengers, and of course interviewed the passenger in question. No charges filed! To be "hauled downtown" so to speak out of vindictiveness is an abuse of power by the crew as I see it.

[Edited 2013-05-06 07:35:30]

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: shufflemoomin
Posted 2013-05-06 07:52:20 and read 5230 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 83):
I have said it before and I will say it again--just make life easy on yourself and comply with instructions.

Don't be ridiculous. If it doesn't affect safety, I'm not just "complying". Regardless of what some flight attendants think of themselves, you do NOT have power or authority over other people. I wouldn't let a waiter in a restaurant tell me what to do and I certainly wouldn't let a flight attendant do it. If they're rude to me, I'll be rude right back. Only an idiot would call the police over someone being rude or swearing at them.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: United_fan
Posted 2013-05-06 07:55:04 and read 5223 times.

" He and his lawyer sent Virgin a Letter of Demand, noting that he has since experienced, "depression, worry, and anxiety surrounding his detention by law enforcement." "

What a cry baby clown  

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: koruman
Posted 2013-05-06 08:00:12 and read 5196 times.

The lack of corroboration by any independent witnesses is crucial here, and is why the crew should at the very least be facing jail time for abusing anti-terror powers.

This did not occur in a remote area of a parking lot, it occurred in a narrow and densely-packed tube of aluminium. The passenger is clearly an obnoxious PITA but that doesn't entitle staff to settle scores by abusing anti-terror powers.

On reflection, my earlier suggestions of jail time, dismissal and a heavy fine are insufficient for deliberate misuse of anti-terror provisions.

If the crew made false and vexatious claims of a security nature they should be immediately transported to Guantanamo Bay and afforded the same rights as other inmates there. I suspect that that would be the last time we would ever see an enraged crew misuse anti-terror provisions to teach an annoying passenger a lesson.

There are only two options here. Either the passenger committed security offences, or the crew committed air piracy by crying wolf so that he could suffer the indignity of being treated as a suspected terrorist.

Either way, someone should have ended up in jail.

It is utterly unacceptable that there are no consequences at present in the USA for deliberate abuse of anti-terror powers. It disrespects the memory of the real victims.

[Edited 2013-05-06 08:03:43]

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-05-06 08:15:11 and read 5159 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Wow. Well I doubt the crew would call the police on him for nothing... maybe calling the police was over the top for what he really might have done but I'm sure there had to be something... something is fishy...

And boo hoo, cry me a river, I'm sure he wasn't $500,000 traumatized by this ordeal. Some people have way too much time on their hands

The way it works is that you find a sleazebag lawyer who will represent you (there are plenty out there) and the amount of the lawsuit is greatly exaggerated to garner further attention and allow for a greater settlement. Nobody sues an airline for $5000 when lawyer fees alone will likely exceed that.
Once the media picks up on it, that is to the plaintiff's advantage because I can guarantee you VX just wants this to go away - they'll likely settle for closer to $50K and not $500,000. The lawyer gets his (sizeable) cut and the Benevivo will still net a decent amount from what should have been a non-issue. Getting asked questions by the cops certainly does not constitute a half-million dollar lawsuit and my feeling is that he was no saint on the aircraft either.

So if VX setltes for $50K, it's still $50K too much in my opinion, but that's the way the legal system works. VX could fight the case on principle but it would probably cost more in defense attorney fees (and the potential of further bad press) than it would cost just to settle. That's the American legal system for you.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: SmittyOne
Posted 2013-05-06 09:17:10 and read 5042 times.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 89):
Don't be ridiculous. If it doesn't affect safety, I'm not just "complying". Regardless of what some flight attendants think of themselves, you do NOT have power or authority over other people. I wouldn't let a waiter in a restaurant tell me what to do and I certainly wouldn't let a flight attendant do it. If they're rude to me, I'll be rude right back. Only an idiot would call the police over someone being rude or swearing at them.
Quoting United_fan (Reply 90):
What a cry baby clown

Yep, the consummate douche. Wants to be a tough guy with the crew and then it's all "boo hoo hoo" once he realizes he brought a knife to a gun fight!

Maybe the crew was wrong and this was some sort of miscarriage of justice, but I have no problem with seeing this joker suffer. I don't care who you are, there's no call to get into an altercation over a soda...he showed his lack of class and paid the price for it. I hope they start ejecting the people who insist on stuffing everything that they have ever owned into the overhead bins next.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-05-06 09:19:24 and read 5038 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 22):
The passenger's attitude of entitlement is obnoxious, obviously. The airline would be within its rights to refuse to transport him ever again.

However, this lawsuit is not about soda. It's about vengeful cabin crew misusing actions intended for terrorists as a means of getting revenge against an obnoxious passenger. And that is not okay, and insults the memory of the victims of actual terrorism.

The shadow of 9/11 has left US aircrews with the power to settle vendettas with concocted claims of threats or suspicious behaviour.

There need to be checks and balances. And devastating consequences for airline employees crying "Wolf" to settle scores.

Obviously 99.999% of passenger hostility or threats are witnessed by other passengers.

So the US needs a federal "Abuse of Power" law stating that any case of a pilot offloading a passenger on the say-so of cabin crew without witness corroboration from passengers not employed by the airline will lose his pilot's licence forever, without any right of appeal, face a long custodial prison sentence for his own act of air piracy, and pay a seven figure fine. Similar sanctions should apply to the cabin crew involved.

At the moment, it's too easy for a flight attendant who is tired and annoyed by a passenger to settle the argument by invoking anti-terror measures. There is no disincentive.

But if it was going to cost the person their livelihood, their life-savings and a long stretch in jail, they just might conclude that no, this annoying passenger cannot be taught a lesson by being treated as a suspected terrorist.

And what happens when the passenger really does act in a way that is not appropriate, in an area that may not be in view of any other passenger, and then denies his actions? Should the crew just let them have their way out of fear of losing their job, their home, their families while they are sitting in jail? What you propose pretty much leaves the crew powerless to do anything other than serve Cokes. While some here would love that idea, I think it's insane. I'm a Flight Attendant. I have had the police meet the plane exactly twice in over 13 years. Once there was physical violence directed at myself and another passenger, the other time there was an express verbal threat of physical violence. As I read some of the posts here I wonder who these "power tripping FA's" are that everyone seems to encounter on every flight they take within the U.S. I don't often work with them. I have worked with some that have no business dealing with people, and I don't enjoy that any more than the passengers do, but none that get off on threatening and intimidating passengers. Maybe some are out there but I've yet to see them and I would certainly intervene if I had the misfortune of working with them. Your proposal is over the top ridiculous. On nearly every single flight I work there are one or two folks that insist on using their cell phones despite having been asked several times to put turn them off. People completely ignore the seat belt sign unless they themselves believe there would be a threat to their physical safety. Those are just little rules that people ignore, the point is, people want to do what they want to do. Flight Attendants are tasked by the FAA with ensuring compliance. Not every passenger responds favorably when being asked multiple times to comply. It's not surprising to see these kinds of stories from time to time given the sheer numbers of people flying these days - is it really hard to believe that the passenger in question may be at fault rather than the crew?

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 09:23:37 and read 5026 times.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 93):
Maybe the crew was wrong and this was some sort of miscarriage of justice, but I have no problem with seeing this joker suffer. I don't care who you are, there's no call to get into an altercation over a soda...he showed his lack of class and paid the price for it.

Couldn't the exact same words also apply to the FA who got into an altercation over a soda? And remind us, who is the customer, and who is the service provider here?

The FAs got their "revenge" by calling the cops on him for a trivial issue that any customer service employee should be able to de-escalate. The pax is now getting his "revenge" by suing the airline.

Needless escalation? Yes. But both sides contributed to this. Only one side however is the customer. It is inexcusable that the service provider allowed things to escalate in the first place, and then pulled the safety / security card.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-05-06 09:24:16 and read 5023 times.

Quoting koruman (Reply 91):
The lack of corroboration by any independent witnesses is crucial here, and is why the crew should at the very least be facing jail time for abusing anti-terror powers.

This did not occur in a remote area of a parking lot, it occurred in a narrow and densely-packed tube of aluminium. The passenger is clearly an obnoxious PITA but that doesn't entitle staff to settle scores by abusing anti-terror powers.

On reflection, my earlier suggestions of jail time, dismissal and a heavy fine are insufficient for deliberate misuse of anti-terror provisions.

If the crew made false and vexatious claims of a security nature they should be immediately transported to Guantanamo Bay and afforded the same rights as other inmates there. I suspect that that would be the last time we would ever see an enraged crew misuse anti-terror provisions to teach an annoying passenger a lesson.

There are only two options here. Either the passenger committed security offences, or the crew committed air piracy by crying wolf so that he could suffer the indignity of being treated as a suspected terrorist.

Either way, someone should have ended up in jail.

It is utterly unacceptable that there are no consequences at present in the USA for deliberate abuse of anti-terror powers. It disrespects the memory of the real victims.

This isn't about "anti-terror" policies? The police have always been available to intervene once on the ground if a passenger becomes abusive towards the crew. It's not as though they are available in the air. The rule about not intimidating or interfering with a crew member was not a result of 9-11, it existed long before that. I also would like to point out that the passenger doesn't provide any kind of witness corroboration either. You're going all kinds of crazy about something you know one side of - the passenger and his lawyers side. Maybe you should settle down and wait to hear the other side, which may or may not include witness corroboration.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-06 12:27:36 and read 4794 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 86):
Incorrect. It is not a required procedure, it is an option.

I missed that. Mea Culpa. That changes my opinion. The FA should have said "I can get that for you."

I still don't approve of the man verbally abusing the FAs. Two wrongs do not make a right...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 81):
If a FA points first at me and then at the screen I not not have to be "obedient" , neither by the conditions of contract nor by common sense. An aircraft is not a gimmick restaurant one goes to by choice.

Fair enough, I missed that the 'red system' was optional.

But due to low profits for airlines, the "gimmick" will become standard as many technologies have over the years. Not for F or J, but for Y.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 95):
Needless escalation? Yes. But both sides contributed to this.

Now that I know the red system was optional, I can agree to that. Both sides should have not escalated. Both are at fault.


But I still think the lawsuit was excessive. The man should have taken the $5k or $8k and toasted his easy victory. $500k is real money and a precedent VX cannot afford to start. The only winner will be the lawyers...

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 93):
there's no call to get into an altercation over a soda...

Yea. Coffee is far more important.  

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 13:21:37 and read 4673 times.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 94):
And what happens when the passenger really does act in a way that is not appropriate, in an area that may not be in view of any other passenger, and then denies his actions?

Why go into what ifs? We are talking of this incident. The cops were called, they found nothing occurred that required further action from them, the captain said there was never a safety of security issues, the airline offered compensation.

I think this clearly suggests the scenario you describe above does not apply in this case.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 97):

I still don't approve of the man verbally abusing the FAs. Two wrongs do not make a right...

We don't know this happened for sure. I doubt the cops would have let him go just like that, and the airline offer $5k compensation, if indeed that was proven to be the case.

[Edited 2013-05-06 13:22:59]

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 13:27:03 and read 4653 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 97):
But due to low profits for airlines, the "gimmick" will become standard as many technologies have over the years. Not for F or J, but for Y.

You know, I wonder about that. If people start using the system heavily, it will just significantly add to the FA workload and create resistance from them. Analogous to the pax hitting the call button repeatedly and randomly throughout the flight. We all know how well THAT goes down with most FAs.

So I remain to be convinced this system will actually take off (no pun intended).

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: SmittyOne
Posted 2013-05-06 13:54:41 and read 4597 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 95):
Couldn't the exact same words also apply to the FA who got into an altercation over a soda?

I suppose it all depends on whose story is true per usual!  

[Edited 2013-05-06 13:58:51]

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: DTW2HYD
Posted 2013-05-06 14:08:05 and read 4552 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 97):
But due to low profits for airlines, the "gimmick" will become standard as many technologies have over the years. Not for F or J, but for Y.

As technology improves they can use the space where oxygen masks are stowed currently to lower the soda ordered. No need for FAs in Y.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: N766UA
Posted 2013-05-06 15:04:43 and read 4460 times.

This guy needs to get a life. If this "incident" has caused him half a million dollars worth of anxiety, he has a lot more going on than this story can explain. Can I sue my ex girlfriend for 500 grand because she has caused me anxiety and worry?

We suck as a country.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: SmittyOne
Posted 2013-05-06 15:44:28 and read 4390 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 102):
Can I sue my ex girlfriend for 500 grand because she has caused me anxiety and worry?

2 Million at least.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 102):
We suck as a country.

Indeed, but there's some consolation in excelling individually!

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-05-06 16:06:03 and read 4335 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 98):
Why go into what ifs? We are talking of this incident. The cops were called, they found nothing occurred that required further action from them, the captain said there was never a safety of security issues, the airline offered compensation.

I think this clearly suggests the scenario you describe above does not apply in this case.

I went into what if's because there are a whole slew of posts here that suggest that FA's are power tripping drama queens and they are basing that all on "what if" type scenarios. In particular, I was referring to the post that I responded to that suggested that pilots and FA's should be fired, have their licenses taken away, fined heavily and face a mandatory jail term when a passenger is detained by police after a flight but not cited. The overwhelming majority of FA's are not power tripping drama queens, just as the majority of passengers are not awful human beings.

This "case" as we all know it now, has been described by the passenger and his lawyer and we know that side only. Any courtroom would afford both sides the opportunity to voice their experiences. The courtroom of Airliners.net is not the same however, as you and everyone else are quick to judge based on one side of the story. We don't know what the passenger did or didn't do out of view of the other passengers - we know only what the passenger is saying and I don't know what makes him any more trustworthy than the crew. As for the offer of compensation, airlines routinely offer it to get people out of their hair and to avoid any negative publicity because, as we see now, right or wrong, airlines will be judged in the public court. Usually based on one sides story. The story that is linked here doesn't quote anyone other than the passenger and several statements from the police report. There were no witnesses quoted and this man doesn't even suggest that he has any. He's going to go to court and rely on his good word over the good word of the crew - we'll see who a judge believes.

[Edited 2013-05-06 16:18:02]

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-05-06 16:09:33 and read 4324 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 98):
We don't know this happened for sure. I doubt the cops would have let him go just like that, and the airline offer $5k compensation, if indeed that was proven to be the case.

The local police don't have jurisdiction over what happens in the air. They can detain someone while the federal government (namely the FAA) processes charges, but in the case of someone being verbally abused, they typically aren't going to get involved beyond getting the persons name and address and making a report of the incident. We don't know that they didn't do that and whether the flight crew filed a report with the FAA and they are following up. The FAA can impose a fine for this passenger interfering with the flight crew and intimidating them - not the local police.

[Edited 2013-05-06 16:10:20]

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 20:23:35 and read 4118 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 102):

We suck as a country.

No, the fact that this man is not taking this incident lightly actually gives me hope that we have not yet as a country give up on our rights and freedoms. That we don't just shut up, sit, down, mindlessly follow instructions, and not do anything that might annoy the crew as some who work in the industry have suggested. That we don't mutely subject ourselves to be questioned by police in public in public for every little thing. The day we actually stop fighting for our rights is the day we will suck as a country.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 104):
As for the offer of compensation, airlines routinely offer it to get people out of their hair and to avoid any negative publicity because, as we see now, right or wrong, airlines will be judged in the public court

Incorrect. We are not talking of some FF miles or a $250 future flight discount voucher. Those are routinely offered to people to make up for lapses in customer service. Airlines do NOT routinely hand out $3k-5k for customer service issues just to keep customers quiet, or they'd all be out of business by now. The amount offered is unusually high, and while lower than what legal proceedings would cost, is at a level where it indicates they know the customer actually has a case strong enough to take it to court, and they want to avoid that for obvious reasons.

[Edited 2013-05-06 20:26:42]

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: airtechy
Posted 2013-05-06 20:23:56 and read 4115 times.

What us troubling about this...and similar...incidents is that it comes down to he/she said against at least one and possibly all the flight attendants and the captain who in some cases has no direct knowledge of the problem. Once the plane lands, unless it is a major incident, the remaining passengers will depart and leave the he/she to face the police/TSA and the crew..

I can see that in these cases the accused passenger would have no reasonable way to defend himself. It would be very easy for the crew to "circle the wagons" and support the flight attendant/s involved. Maybe we should all carry an audio recorder so that we have a record of all flight attendant interactions.

The postings of flight attendants here would seem to warrant this precaution.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: Quokkas
Posted 2013-05-06 20:34:50 and read 4095 times.

I find it less worrying that some cabin crew seem to think that they are gods than that there are many people here who appear to agree with them. Obviously some crew do not see themselves as being in a customer service role and nor do their cheer-leaders.

While it is true that cabin crew are employed first and foremost for safety reasons - an aircraft capable of carrying more than a certain number of passengers and operating passenger services is by law required to maintain a prescribed passenger-crew ratio - it is typically a part of their job description that they will provide a service to the passengers, whether it be included as part of the fare or BOB. The excerpt from VX's website that I quoted above makes it clear that the customer can expect a high standard of customer service. If the allegations made are true then it seems that at least two crew members were not prepared to do what they are paid to do because it was all too much bother for them or that the blurb on the web site is just that, blurb not to be taken seriously.

Just how is requesting a soda an imposition? Just how is simply saying "you're here, can't you just bring the soda instead of forcing me to pointlessly use a remote" considered interference or intimidation of the crew? Nowhere in the 36 pages of the Conditions of Carriage does it state that ordering a soda (which is described by VX as "on the house") must be done electronically. That they should compound the lack of customer service by calling the police and telling lies should, if true, lead to the termination of their contract.

As to the idea that an airline installed remote ordering to ensure passengers are served in order, that is at best questionable. The main reason to introduce it is to improve stock control and eliminate cash-handling, saving the airline money. This may be commendable in terms of reducing costs and improving efficiency but let us not pretend that it was primarily done to make the passenger's life easier.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-05-06 22:17:40 and read 4022 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 106):
Incorrect. We are not talking of some FF miles or a $250 future flight discount voucher. Those are routinely offered to people to make up for lapses in customer service. Airlines do NOT routinely hand out $3k-5k for customer service issues just to keep customers quiet, or they'd all be out of business by now. The amount offered is unusually high, and while lower than what legal proceedings would cost, is at a level where it indicates they know the customer actually has a case strong enough to take it to court, and they want to avoid that for obvious reasons.

Also incorrect. Airlines have teams of people that decide what something is worth to them. It is not a statement about whether they were right or wrong. If something has the potential to give them a black eye they will step up the offer - even if they were never in the wrong. It happens routinely. I am keenly aware of this myself through first hand experience.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 22:36:08 and read 3995 times.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 109):
If something has the potential to give them a black eye they will step up the offer - even if they were never in the wrong.

Let's agree to disagree on this.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: PanHAM
Posted 2013-05-06 22:43:39 and read 3992 times.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 108):
I find it less worrying that some cabin crew seem to think that they are gods than that there are many people here who appear to agree with them. Obviously some crew do not see themselves as being in a customer service role and nor do their cheer-leaders.

        

absolutely correct, as the rest of the post. How much fear has a justice system cemented in the heads of people ? It may be semantics, but "obey" belongs into families, schools and the military but not in terms of contract between a civilian company and their customers. It should be replaced with "comply". passengers have to comply with the instructions..... when it comes to safety and security. Makes sense and should be udnerstood by anyone.

Ordering a soda or a cup of coffee has nothing to do with security nor safety and a passenger has in no way to obey or comply with crew instructions. Either I get a soda or not.

Where has common sense gone?

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-05-07 00:45:07 and read 3899 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 106):
Airlines do NOT routinely hand out $3k-5k for customer service issues just to keep customers quiet,

Yes they do, practically every corporation does to avoid litigation.

If you walk into Walmart, slip on the floor, and bang your head, then I can assure you that they will offer you a lot more than a $10 gift card. Quite probably without you even asking for it.

Given the circumstances, the amount is so low it shows that VX are pretty certain that they would win in open court.

[Edited 2013-05-07 00:56:57]

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-07 05:37:57 and read 3694 times.

I think we have the same problem with persons having power and authority anywhere, in any system.

Somebody in authority abuses his/her power everybody in the brotherhood circle the wagons, power abuse? never heard, never seen.

Than suddenly you get a video or an outside witness and this never, never brakes down. We have seen it with police and so on.
You give a group of people some power and it will be abused by somebody.

That said, most of the FA and flight crews will be, professional, friendly, service minded and all around just plain nice people.
But to imply that there is not the possibility of a very few bad apples in between, is just plain crazy.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-07 05:42:13 and read 3686 times.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 105):
but in the case of someone being verbally abused, they typically aren't going to get involved beyond getting the persons name and address and making a report of the incident.

Unfortunately that is true. If anyone here is verbally abused, ABR (always be recording). Verbal abusers are amazingly good liars... Unfortunately via my ex, I know.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 109):
If something has the potential to give them a black eye they will step up the offer - even if they were never in the wrong.

        

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 112):
Given the circumstances, the amount is so low it shows that VX are pretty certain that they would win in open court.

   But it will cost VX $20k in lawyer fees easy.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: koruman
Posted 2013-05-07 05:56:42 and read 3657 times.

ASflyer,
I take a dozen or more domestic flights in the USA every year.

As you describe, I encounter some obnoxious passengers. I find that 90% of cabin crew are polite and respectable, although levels of customer service in general are despicable in any tip-free area of US service industries, and civil aviation ain't no exception.

Your main concern with my proposals is that innocent crew could be victimised. How? A plane is a confined space, and pretty much all passenger-crew conflict is witnessed, although the current system enables the 0.1% of cabin crew who are vindictive and happy to abuse their powers to do so without corroboration and with impunity.

I grew up in the UK amidst terrorism, by white Irish people on both sides of a conflict, who looked like the general population and attacked civilian targets every single day.

But we never over-reacted by implementing the bizarre security which the US appears to have imported from its other best friend from the Middle East. Israel has little choice, because rightly or wrongly it is surrounded by enemies. It's only Tuesday, and they have already been in armed conflict in the territory of two neighbours this week! They live in a dangerous neighbourhood.

But in the USA we hear all the time about this sort of incident. And it doesn't surprise me: returning to my earlier experiences I find that 90% of cabin crew seek to de-escalate irate passengers (usually over carry-on luggage) but 10% don't even bother and just threaten them from the outset.

Your current laws and practices are there for a good reason but are too easy for rogue cabin crew to abuse.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-05-07 06:52:14 and read 3577 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 102):
This guy needs to get a life. If this "incident" has caused him half a million dollars worth of anxiety, he has a lot more going on than this story can explain. Can I sue my ex girlfriend for 500 grand because she has caused me anxiety and worry?

Yes, if she doesn't sleep with you.

I'm joking of course. But come to think of it, I'm pretty sure there has been a lawsuit for this.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-07 09:43:24 and read 3450 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 112):
If you walk into Walmart, slip on the floor, and bang your head, then I can assure you that they will offer you a lot more than a $10 gift card.

And they do that because they do have a legal liability is a customer slips and falls inside their store.

In the case of VX if so many of you are so adamant that VX made no mistake, why pay out $3-5k instead of the usual $250 off voucher? Only one answer to that: Because thy know that their crew was a party to a needlessly escalated situation, and abused their powers by calling the cops for a service, not safety, issue.

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: NicholasJet
Posted 2013-05-08 02:13:58 and read 2957 times.

the world has gone mad!

Topic: RE: Man Sues VX Over Soda
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-05-08 07:25:21 and read 2761 times.

The main point is that flight attendants inform, they do not enforce. If you want to be an enforcer, apply for a job as a cop. Once you have informed a passenger of something your job is done. Just walk away. Makes life so much easier.

Grabbing a coke for the guy would have taken all of ten seconds and would have saved a lot of time, effort and money.

(Frankly, I think he should have taken the five thou and RUN!)


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