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Topic: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: skywaymanaz
Posted 2013-05-04 09:31:01 and read 19275 times.

Rainn Wilson, who portrary Dwight Schrute on The Office, and some of his cast mates were left behind in PHL when their connection left early without them. Their flight from LAX was 40 minutes late and it looks like they got to the gate for their Scranton flight to find it left 10 minutes early. Rainn took to twitter to express his rage. At first I was sympathetic but the more I read the more I shook my head. I had the impression from reading what he wrote it was the final flight of the day to Scranton and I'd have a hard time understanding what the US Express gate agent was thinking if that were so. Looks like they were rebooked on a flight that left 3 hours later and there was another one after that. They choose to rent cars instead and drive up to the wrap party for the series there. Any have any more info on this? How close was the connection and what are the policies in these situations?

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/stra...sts_airline_hRevCCiax0Tu1c65w78hYK

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sweair
Posted 2013-05-04 09:45:11 and read 19151 times.

The power of Internet, in the old days no one would know.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: vlad1971
Posted 2013-05-04 09:47:35 and read 19148 times.

Completely agree with US AIRWAYS . Passengers who are not showed up at the departure gate 10 minutes before scheduled departure time are subject to offload . These are the rules . Most of US flights depart earlier to ensure on-time departure which also goes to the DOT. Sorry to tell that but - Late is Late ..... Airlines will not keep aircraft at the gate for misconnect passengers .

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-04 09:57:57 and read 19060 times.

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 2):
Sorry to tell that but - Late is Late ..... Airlines will not keep aircraft at the gate for misconnect passengers .

Sure, but how does that justify the connecting flight leaving *early*?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: CrimsonNL
Posted 2013-05-04 10:05:05 and read 18993 times.

I think the reaction of Mr. Wilson is quite childish. But I do think that this incident is a bad example of an airline-hub functioning. The gate agent should have checked where the inbound passengers were coming from and what time their inbound flight had arrived. If they had left on time without them that's something I would agree with, but 10 minutes seems way too early.

Martijn

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-05-04 10:06:01 and read 18996 times.

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 2):
Sorry to tell that but - Late is Late ..... Airlines will not keep aircraft at the gate for misconnect passengers .

First of all, that's not even true. Many airlines I have flown on do hold connections. Second of all, 10 minutes early is not "late". Third of all, they were not there yet because their flight was late. This is like blaming a passenger for the airline having lost his checked bag.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-04 10:51:17 and read 18719 times.

There is a difference between the flight being closed and actually gone. Having worked connection carrier flights in the past, it's standard practice for almost every airline I know to close (connection) flights 10 minutes prior just so that it can depart on time. The biggest reason being the manual load sheet. The gate has to get the final passenger count to the flight crew as does the ramp has to have the paperwork in including the checked bags, cargo and valet bags so that w&b can be completed before they push. On mainline flights this is all done electronically thus most of the time the flight will close 5 minutes prior. Passenger count is sent via computer as is the fuel and bin weights for a weight and data record.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-04 10:54:22 and read 18667 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 6):
There is a difference between the flight being closed and actually gone. Having worked connection carrier flights in the past, it's standard practice for almost every airline I know to close (connection) flights 10 minutes prior just so that it can depart on time.

That is true and fair, but I have personally witnessed on numerous occasions, flight actually pushing back early without necessarily waiting for connecting pax who might otherwise have just made it. I think leaving early is just as bad as leaving late!

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-04 11:28:22 and read 18449 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 7):
That is true and fair, but I have personally witnessed on numerous occasions, flight actually pushing back early without necessarily waiting for connecting pax who might otherwise have just made it. I think leaving early is just as bad as leaving late!

It is, which is why if a flight gets in too early it isn't considered on time.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: iMissPiedmont
Posted 2013-05-04 11:34:05 and read 18417 times.

Holding the flight in this case would not have made good business sense. The plane was scheduled to be on the ground at AVP for only about 20 minutes and there was a flight later that could accommodate these people. Think about how many others would miss connections and appointments if the flight was late leaving AVP?

Let him rant, US Airways agents made the correct choice.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-04 11:42:47 and read 18354 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 8):
It is, which is why if a flight gets in too early it isn't considered on time.

Is this new? AFAIK, the DOT does not measure "early" arrivals, only on-time and delayed.

Quoting iMissPiedmont (Reply 9):
Think about how many others would miss connections and appointments if the flight was late leaving AVP?

But that is if the flight left late. The question and unknown here is whether it pushed back early, and whether The Office cast would have made it if it hadn't pushed back early.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-05-04 11:47:17 and read 18316 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 8):
It is, which is why if a flight gets in too early it isn't considered on time.

Yes it is, at least according to the DOT stats.

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 2):
Airlines will not keep aircraft at the gate for misconnect passengers .

Yes they will, although in my experience PHL seems to be a "no-hold" hub, probably due to congestion issues. Also, his flight left out of Terminal F. Anyone who has flown out of there knows what that's like.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: iMissPiedmont
Posted 2013-05-04 11:59:11 and read 18226 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 10):
The question and unknown here is whether it pushed back early, and whether The Office cast would have made it if it hadn't pushed back early

But trusting the decision making of the ground staff I think they decided that the flight would have left late if they had waited.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: LOWS
Posted 2013-05-04 12:05:25 and read 18186 times.

While I think the US agents made the right choice, waiting three hours would have made little sense considering the drive is only 2 hours or so:

http://goo.gl/maps/yEIUt

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Flaps
Posted 2013-05-04 12:07:05 and read 18178 times.

I'm usually the first to leap on an opportunity to bash US, especially in PHL but not this time. They tell you be there 10 minutes prior for the exact reasons listed above. Just because one pompous ass has a public avenue for his hissy fit doesn't mean that the airline is wrong or that the details he gave are correct. Last summer I was enslaved at the Hotel Hell (Comfort Inn Romulus) several times by DL under the exact circumstances when my inbound flights to DTW were delayed by the runway construction in DTW. It is what it is. Deal with it and move on.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-04 12:23:55 and read 18087 times.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 14):
I'm usually the first to leap on an opportunity to bash US, especially in PHL but not this time. They tell you be there 10 minutes prior for the exact reasons listed above.

But from Wilson's tweet ("“The plane was a 20 seater, missing 7 people who had obviously just landed & it leaves 10 minutes EARLY!"), it is not clear if whether it was just closed 10 minutes prior to departure, or whether it pushed back 10 minutes early. If the former, you point is valid. But if the latter, then US has some explaining to do.

I don't care for Wilson's later tweets either.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-05-04 12:25:19 and read 18080 times.

Rainn Wilson had a similar tirade with Alaska Airlines a few years back because of a mechanical cancellation. He's a tool. Seriously. Maybe he should buy his own plane and then it will be ready to go whenever and wherever he wants without worry of any kind of mechanical failure causing inconvenience ever.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-04 12:39:30 and read 17990 times.

There has to be more to this story. I'm guessing the door was closed ten minutes before departure time (which is SOP). It didn't actually leave the gate 10 minutes early.

I can't stand when passenger rage about issues like this (or weather, etc) regarding a particular airline. This happens everyday, on every airline, all over the world. Suck it up, wait for the next plane or drive, like Wilson ended up doing. Rainn made an absolute fool of himself with his behavior...What a tool

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2013-05-04 12:44:54 and read 17946 times.

Episodes like this lead me to believe that the egotistical character Mr. Wilson plays on the office is not much of stretch for him...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: LV
Posted 2013-05-04 13:07:39 and read 17830 times.

Considering this was for a huge publicity push to close out a popular show on a major TV network I am surprised that the booking wasn't done by either NBC or the production company and handled through VIP services. In that case I would think VIP services would have requested that the flight be held since it was 7 high profile guests.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cschleic
Posted 2013-05-04 15:08:10 and read 17168 times.

Without getting into personalities and plenty of examples of absurd passenger attitudes we've all experienced.... I'm wondering about timing here. They got to the gate to find it had left 10 minutes early. If so, then they were at the gate 10 minutes prior to departure time, which would be in time per some of the above posts. More to the story? Closed flight vs. departed flight?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-04 15:11:59 and read 17164 times.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 14):
doesn't mean that the airline is wrong

Doesn't mean the airline was right... Who is to blame for the flight arriving late to PHL?

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 17):
I can't stand when passenger rage about issues like this (or weather, etc) regarding a particular airline. This happens everyday, on every airline, all over the world. Suck it up, wait for the next plane or drive, like Wilson ended up doing.

I can't stand when passengers are made responsible for airlines shortcomings. Did the airline sell the connection?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: ASFlyer
Posted 2013-05-04 16:21:48 and read 16235 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):
I can't stand when passengers are made responsible for airlines shortcomings. Did the airline sell the connection?

Remember you said that the next time you're sitting on an airplane at some hub in the country waiting on 7 people to get there. What makes the 7 people's plans anymore important that the plane full of other people that would have to sit there and wait? It's public transportation, it's not perfect but what are the airlines supposed to do? They have to be concerned with the rest of the passengers too and they can't just whip a plane out for the 7 people that were late arriving. Sounds like US Airways handled it well. Rainn Wilson seems to think his needs trump the needs of everyone else. Because he's delayed, everyone else should be?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-05-04 16:30:32 and read 16125 times.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 22):
Remember you said that the next time you're sitting on an airplane at some hub in the country waiting on 7 people to get there. What makes the 7 people's plans anymore important that the plane full of other people that would have to sit there and wait? It's public transportation, it's not perfect but what are the airlines supposed to do? They have to be concerned with the rest of the passengers too and they can't just whip a plane out for the 7 people that were late arriving. Sounds like US Airways handled it well. Rainn Wilson seems to think his needs trump the needs of everyone else. Because he's delayed, everyone else should be?

I by no means fly a lot (maybe 4 or 5 trips a year max) but even I can think of times where the flight I have been on has been slightly delayed at times to allow connecting passengers to make the flight. I can also think of a time where the flight I was on was late and they let connecting passengers off the plane first because they were holding other flights for them.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: strandedinbgm
Posted 2013-05-04 16:37:55 and read 16032 times.

That has NEVER happened to me when I have flown US through PHL. Especially when we were told that they would be holding the flight for those whose connections were late. I have never had to talk to a police officer after getting into a heated discussion with a gate agent.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: DLD9S
Posted 2013-05-04 17:46:13 and read 15634 times.

When I first read the title I thought this thread was about the employees of the US HQ in Arizona.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-05-04 17:59:38 and read 15547 times.

[/quote]

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 6):
There is a difference between the flight being closed and actually gone. Having worked connection carrier flights in the past, it's standard practice for almost every airline I know to close (connection) flights 10 minutes prior just so that it can depart on time. The biggest reason being the manual load sheet. The gate has to get the final passenger count to the flight crew as does the ramp has to have the paperwork in including the checked bags, cargo and valet bags so that w&b can be completed before they push. On mainline flights this is all done electronically thus most of the time the flight will close 5 minutes prior. Passenger count is sent via computer as is the fuel and bin weights for a weight and data record.

Great points indeed, something that most passengers do not know. Oddly enough, there is more manual paperwork for the ramp and gate agents, as well as the crew, for a 19 seat Express flight than for an A321! Once the door is closed, it will not reopen, or the load sheet and W/B would have to be done over, resulting in a delay.

Also keep mind that a gate agent or supervisor (or even a manager) has no authority to hold a flight.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2013-05-04 18:15:20 and read 15546 times.

Quoting vlad1971 (Reply 2):

  

To the cast, TS! Sorry to sound callous but if you hold for them, you could be delaying the rest of the operation, your crew could time out. Heck, I'm being a Rabbi to the congregation. Most of us know this. BTW, good riddins to the Office. I felt it was not that funny. Never was a fan of British TV shows adopted to this side of the pond. And yes, there are times I've felt we should have held a flight for connecting passengers but the folks responsible for our operations felt otherwise. They are the professionals in this situation. Hopefully the Hollywood hacks were able to rent cars and have a safe drive to Scranton. If that's the worst thing that happens to them in their lives they should consider themselve's blessed. And I'm sure Raine whatever his last name is will whine, cry and have kittens on all the so called entertainment trashy news shows and when he makes his Leno or Fallon appearance. These prima donnas should have bit the bullet and chartered a private bird to take them to beautiful booming Scranton. But, I guess they'd rather save their coins for their habits.   

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-04 19:00:58 and read 15072 times.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 22):
Remember you said that the next time you're sitting on an airplane at some hub in the country waiting on 7 people to get there. What makes the 7 people's plans anymore important that the plane full of other people that would have to sit there and wait? It's public transportation, it's not perfect but what are the airlines supposed to do? They have to be concerned with the rest of the passengers too and they can't just whip a plane out for the 7 people that were late arriving. Sounds like US Airways handled it well. Rainn Wilson seems to think his needs trump the needs of everyone else. Because he's delayed, everyone else should be?

I've been there often enough. I do not care one bit about how much the departure is delayed. I do care about when we arrive but the airlines frequently remind me that I should expect to be delayed . I have no problem waiting a few minutes so that others are not delayed hours.

But none of that is the issue I commented on. My comment was in regards to that passengers should not complain about airlines failure to deliver . That passengers should always bend over and take whatever the airlines manage to provide.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: freakyrat
Posted 2013-05-04 19:35:27 and read 14703 times.

The airlines do hold international flights for their connecting passengers. Northwest held an airlink flight in MSP to Edmonton for me and others because it was their only flight for the day and their were ground delays at that time in MSP due to a runway closure and low ceilings and rain.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2013-05-04 19:49:26 and read 14537 times.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 29):
The airlines do hold international flights for their connecting passengers.

Not true, I have seen travellers miss many an international connection. It all depends on the circumstances and what the plane/crew have going on downline...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: swacle
Posted 2013-05-04 20:01:58 and read 14419 times.

Not saying this problem is isolated to US or to PHL, but the shuttle to the express gates is absolutely terrible at Philly. Just a couple weeks ago it took me almost an hour to get from my arrival on B to my departure gate on F. We were in the gate at 12:35 and I got to F as they were clearing standbys 15 before departure. Several passengers from our flight were connecting to Toronto, I think, at the gate across the hall and they all missed, 5-6 passengers. The plane pushed 10 early leaving 10% of the passengers behind.

There is -no- excuse the leave early when passengers are enroute, ESPECIALLY when your own transportation is to blame.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2013-05-05 06:34:24 and read 10512 times.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Thread starter):
They choose to rent cars instead and drive up to the wrap party for the series there.
Quoting swacle (Reply 31):
Not saying this problem is isolated to US or to PHL, but the shuttle to the express gates is absolutely terrible at Philly.

You're all being way too kind -- PHL is one of the world's most dysfunctional airports. As a matter of fact, this is a replay of a USAirways flight I had -- LAX-PHL-DCA. Our LAX-PHL leg arrived late -- understandably due to thunderstorm activity, but they docked us A-13, at the very tip of A-East Concourse. The shuttle to F Concourse, which left A-East Gate 1, departed with people coming down the escalator (utterly inexplicable). When we arrived at F Concourse, our gate agent informed us the door had been closed and would not be reopened. Several of the elites were given boarding passes for the next morning and a cheery "Make yourselves comfortable." I took a shuttle bus over to the rental car center and stood in a line for a car. This scenario apparently happens so often at PHL that Avis has one-way cars with built-in EZ-Pass boxes for the trip down the Delaware Turnpike.

PHL can justifiably be termed as one of the world's hellhole airports.

[Edited 2013-05-05 06:39:14]

[Edited 2013-05-05 06:40:55]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: MSJYOP28Apilot
Posted 2013-05-05 07:17:23 and read 10048 times.

There are many different groups that need to agree normally for a flight to be held for connections. If its a regional partner airline, their SOC needs to be contacted and sign off on holding it. This is because the mainline or contract company that does the ground handling and passenger care doesn't have access to the tail routings and crew legalities or potential weather issues at the outstation.

Flights don't get held for no reason. The flights that do get held for connections are normally the last flight of the day and flights where there wont be any downline delays and missed connections and where crew scheduling and weather aren't a factor. On many flights, if you hold it for connections it can be the difference between a crew or destination airport weather going illegal.

At some airlines that do outstation maintenance, the plane needs to get there on time in order for maintenance to do scheduled work on the aircraft overnight. If its late arriving, maintenance gets to the plane late and thus the morning flight out and downline legs are also likely delayed.

If there are multiple flights on a route per day, an airline will not likely hold the connection.

Remember, when a plane leaves late it often has an effect on the operation the rest of the day. A plane may fly 5-8 legs or more per day.

Some flights are given priority for being on time just for this reason. Most are the first flights of the day that aircraft flies, often to a hub airport. If the kickoff goes out late, the schedule for the whole day will be messed up.

A gate agent and the direct supervisor for them have little authority in holding the plane. A gate agent gets in serious trouble if the plane goes out late on account of passenger service or if they get the passenger and bag count wrong in doing the weight and balance paperwork.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: widget1580
Posted 2013-05-05 08:17:57 and read 9463 times.

Quoting LV (Reply 19):
In that case I would think VIP services would have requested that the flight be held since it was 7 high profile guests.

VIP, whatever. They are C-list celebrities with some washed up sense of entitlement. Too much has to be done within that ten minutes to get the flight out. I completely agree that US made the right choice.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 08:26:04 and read 9320 times.

Quoting widget1580 (Reply 34):

VIP, whatever. They are C-list celebrities with some washed up sense of entitlement. Too much has to be done within that ten minutes to get the flight out. I completely agree that US made the right choice.

So you know for a fact the flight did not actually push back early?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-05 08:30:27 and read 9261 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 28):
But none of that is the issue I commented on. My comment was in regards to that passengers should not complain about airlines failure to deliver . That passengers should always bend over and take whatever the airlines manage to provide.

I agree with you 100% that passengers have every right to complain. I'll admit my previous statement was too broad, but my point was that this happens at every airline, which is why it drives me nuts when people single out the specific airline they are flying that day, especially when they go to social media.

On another note, if the plane was held up to accommodate the Office cast members, that plane would in turn be late and would piss off the 21 other passengers that made it to the plane when they were supposed to. I'm sure Rainn would've tweeted the same drivel about his bags not making it to his Scranton connection if they held the plane for them. Lose-lose for the airlines...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 08:35:23 and read 9227 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 36):

On another note, if the plane was held up to accommodate the Office cast members, that plane would in turn be late and would piss off the 21 other passengers that made it to the plane when they were supposed to.

So you too know for a fact the aircraft did not push back early? And these 7 were late **because** their incoming US flight was late. Given that the flight to Scranton was a terminating flight, would it really have been such a big deal to wait 5-7 minutes? Those other pax did not have connections to catch in Scranton, did they?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: NW747-400
Posted 2013-05-05 08:48:20 and read 9067 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 6):
The biggest reason being the manual load sheet.

Just a quick side bar, I don't know of many regionals in the US doing manual weight and balance anymore. Maybe RP and some of the turboprop operators, but I believe all of US Express jet operators have ACARS weight and balance programs. We can close the main cabin door at exactly departure time and then enter the W&B numbers into ACARS.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-05-05 08:57:57 and read 8963 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 6):
I know to close (connection) flights 10 minutes prior just so that it can depart on time.

What if I told you, "depart on time" means nothing if the passengers aren't allowed onboard?

This is just taking govt statistics - chasing. The most flagrant example is when you arrive on a connection -- say 5 people -- and the airline fails to hold a flight, even for 2 minutes for 5-10 customers.

It is a training fail and a customer service fail. Chasing the statistic while totally screwing lots of real people.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: widget1580
Posted 2013-05-05 08:59:39 and read 8934 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 35):
So you know for a fact the flight did not actually push back early?

If the flight was closed ten minutes prior and the flight left early, yes, I still agree with US. I was not completely clear - if it left more than 10 minutes early then US is at fault. Do you know when the flight left? Do not come at me like that. It is clearly stated in its contract of carriage (chapter 6) "It is US Airways’ policy to close the boarding doors ten minutes prior and the aircraft doors five minutes prior to scheduled departure." If they do not agree with it, they can rent a car and drive, which is what they did.


Source: http://www.usairways.com/en-US/about...omersfirst/contractofcarriage.html

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-05 09:00:47 and read 8934 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 37):
So you too know for a fact the aircraft did not push back early? And these 7 were late **because** their incoming US flight was late. Given that the flight to Scranton was a terminating flight, would it really have been such a big deal to wait 5-7 minutes? Those other pax did not have connections to catch in Scranton, did they?

Do you know how late their flight from LAX was? Waiting 5-7 minutes would turn into a much bigger delay. The crew and ground staff would most likely have to redo their weight and balance paperwork and possibly wait for bags. There is nothing in an airline's Conditions of Carriage that says a plane will be held if a passenger may miss their connection.

With the limited info we have and this point you brought up: " Those other pax did not have connections to catch in Scranton, did they?," I'm going to assume the door shut 10 minutes prior to departure, which is SOP. This could very easily be interpreted as a plane leaving 10 minutes early.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: deltairlines
Posted 2013-05-05 09:02:30 and read 8909 times.

Quoting NW747-400 (Reply 38):
Just a quick side bar, I don't know of many regionals in the US doing manual weight and balance anymore. Maybe RP and some of the turboprop operators, but I believe all of US Express jet operators have ACARS weight and balance programs. We can close the main cabin door at exactly departure time and then enter the W&B numbers into ACARS.

With the exception of a Chautauqua ERJ RON, PHL-AVP is the domain of Piedmont Dash 8-100s, which I would guess are manual W&B.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-05-05 09:04:06 and read 8856 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 41):
There is nothing in an airline's Conditions of Carriage that says a plane will be held if a passenger may miss their connection.

The airline should be measured on passenger delays, not flight delays. Here they delayed people by 8 hours, let's say. (Sometimes over 12 hours). That's what should be measured. Holding a flight 15 minutes to save 100 hours of passenger delay is a good call.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: widget1580
Posted 2013-05-05 09:11:24 and read 8782 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 43):
That's what should be measured. Holding a flight 15 minutes to save 100 hours of passenger delay is a good call.

With a 20 minute scheduled turn in the outstation? Are you serious? No logic to that. Turn is now five minutes and you are going to back up that aircraft routing for the rest of the day. That is inconveniencing hundreds more.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-05 09:15:37 and read 8717 times.

That's fine, but holding a flight, especially at a hub, can have a huge trickle effect. The gate agents most likely had other flights to work after this one. From this point on, all other flights that this crew worked may be late, assuming that everything goes smoothly. This would affect many more passenger than just these 7.

I can't believe a flight, missing 50% of it's passengers, would leave EARLY! It just doesn't add up. They were booked on the next flight out, 3 hrs later. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things...

[Edited 2013-05-05 09:22:22]

[Edited 2013-05-05 09:30:28]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: MSJYOP28Apilot
Posted 2013-05-05 09:24:48 and read 8607 times.

Quoting NW747-400 (Reply 38):

Every airline that utilizes ACARS needs a backup to ACARS for weight and balance. ACARS isnt a no dispatch item. Its a fairly common deferral item. Each airline has a way of backing up the ACARS. Some allow dispatch or the load planner to input the passenger and bag/cargo count into a takeoff performance program and read back the V speeds, stab trim and max takeoff weights for the planned departure runway. Others require paper weight and balance be done by the crews.

[Edited 2013-05-05 09:26:20]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 09:30:45 and read 8554 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 45):
I can't believe a flight, missing 50% of it's passengers, would leave EARLY! It just doesn't add up.

The flight was US 4302 on May 3. Can someone here who has access to flight data just look it up and let us know whether it pushed back early or not? The Us website is not showing May 3 flights anymore.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-05 09:48:01 and read 8484 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 36):
I agree with you 100% that passengers have every right to complain

  

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 36):
I'll admit my previous statement was too broad, but my point was that this happens at every airline, which is why it drives me nuts when people single out the specific airline they are flying that day, especially when they go to social media.

This is a forest and the tree issue. People are complaining about the airline where it happens to them. As it happens to all airlines it really becomes an industry issue where each individual case is about someone specific.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 36):
On another note, if the plane was held up to accommodate the Office cast members, that plane would in turn be late and would piss off the 21 other passengers that made it to the plane when they were supposed to.

I think you make some big assumptions here.

We don't know it would be late on the other side. From what we know the time needed was minimal and it is very likely that time could have been made up. Even more so if we consider the statement that it was because the flight took of early.

Let's not forget the other peace of information we have, the arriving flight was delayed. As far as I am concerned that is an airline issue. As passenger it is my responsibility to arrive in time at the first airport. After that it is the airlines responsibility to make sure I arrive each connection so that (within reason) I have time to get to the right gate for the next flight.

Did the airline do the right thing by moving them to the next flight in this situation, I don't know. I know the airline failed miserably at explaining the situation to the affected passengers, or had no ground to stand on.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 09:51:13 and read 8451 times.

Wouldn't it be great if The Office made an episode out of this? Too bad their very last episode has already been shot!  

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: tymnbalewne
Posted 2013-05-05 09:53:20 and read 8473 times.

Does this help:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/P.../history/20130503/2134ZZ/KPHL/KAVP

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/P.../20130503/2134Z/KPHL/KAVP/tracklog

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-05-05 10:07:48 and read 8390 times.

Quoting widget1580 (Reply 44):
With a 20 minute scheduled turn in the outstation? Are you serious? No logic to that.

Agree it should not apply to outstations.

With connecting passengers (at a hub), you know they are present inside security because they were onboard the incoming flight.

This thread is about a real issue, and the worst examples should be handled better. Flights should not be closed 10 min prior to departure when there are large numbers of connecting pax, booked for the flight, still in the terminal.

It was my understanding that good gate agents do hold the flight in rare cases for just this reason. Not just my idea; it has been debated for decades.

In the end, it depends how you measure success... on-time aircraft flights, or on-time passenger arrivals (with bags). 2 different things.

[Edited 2013-05-05 10:10:01]

[Edited 2013-05-05 10:13:54]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-05 10:10:40 and read 8362 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 47):
The flight was US 4302 on May 3. Can someone here who has access to flight data just look it up and let us know whether it pushed back early or not? The Us website is not showing May 3 flights anymore.

Sure:

LAX flight arrived to the gate, terminal B, 35 minutes late (scheduled, 4:39PM......actual, 5:14PM):
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...ory/20130503/1530Z/KLAX/KPHL/times

Scranton flight left the gate, terminal F, 4 minutes early (scheduled, 5:34PM......actual, 5:30PM):
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...ory/20130503/2134Z/KPHL/KAVP/times

[Edited 2013-05-05 10:11:31]

[Edited 2013-05-05 10:13:32]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 10:17:24 and read 8307 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 52):
Scranton flight left the gate, terminal F, 4 minutes early (scheduled, 5:34PM......actual, 5:30PM):
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...times

And there we have it, it did leave early. I believe Rainn Wilson is owed an apology.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-05-05 10:35:22 and read 8244 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 53):

As was discussed in prior replies, Express flights require more time to complete load sheets and W/B. The door was closed on time, W/B completed, and did depart a bit early. Had seven runners been put on, a rework of the numbers would have been needed, likely causing a delay. And a trip to a manager's office for the agent.

I will say this again. Gate agents DO NOT have the authority to hold flights at US Airways or Express.

Whether the min conx time at PHL should be longer is another subject.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 10:41:26 and read 8226 times.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 54):
I will say this again. Gate agents DO NOT have the authority to hold flights at US Airways or Express.

802flyguy -- did you see the flight pushed back 4 minutes early? Now what's the excuse?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: nwcoflyer
Posted 2013-05-05 10:54:00 and read 8200 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 53):

No way he is owed an apology. Ever been to PHL. Under almost no circumstance can you make it from B to F in 15 min. The downline effect for holding for 10 minutes could significantly affect people downline for the pax returning to PHL. So they were 3 hours late, that's a bummer. But inconveniencing even more pax is more of a bummer

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-05 10:55:00 and read 8187 times.

Quoting NW747-400 (Reply 38):
Just a quick side bar, I don't know of many regionals in the US doing manual weight and balance anymore. Maybe RP and some of the turboprop operators, but I believe all of US Express jet operators have ACARS weight and balance programs. We can close the main cabin door at exactly departure time and then enter the W&B numbers into ACARS.



I know and understand that. Please re-read what I said. I said the #s are not sent to the cockpit electronically (bags and pax count). Everything is still done on paper using a CLR and the captain gets said information and inputs the data into the computer and the ACARS program does the w&b.

How this differes from (most) mainline flights is that all the data is pushed to the cockpit electronically from the gate (pax count), e-Fuel, and via scan gun (or computer close-out) for the bags.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 55):
802flyguy -- did you see the flight pushed back 4 minutes early? Now what's the excuse?



LOL. So which is it??? Clearly it showed "out" 4 early which is pretty standard for darn near every flight i've ever worked. A far cry from the plane "being gone" 10 before departure like this crazy guy claimed. Further proves my point that they CLOSED the flight by the time they got to the gate. So again, no excuses needed. The G/A did their job.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 11:01:37 and read 8169 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 57):
LOL. So which is it??? Clearly it showed "out" 4 early which is pretty standard for darn near every flight i've ever worked. A far cry from the plane "being gone" 10 before departure like this crazy guy claimed. Further proves my point that they CLOSED the flight by the time they got to the gate. So again, no excuses needed. The G/A did their job.

Okay, you're right, the airline did the right thing, the gate agents did the right thing, after all the passengers are the enemy, these guys are C-listers, the plane left 4 min early and not 10 min early, it was their fault the incoming aircraft was late and parked at a far away concourse, there were only 7 of them, just 20% of the pax load so why bother, so it's all AOK!

Sad.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-05 11:05:56 and read 8170 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 53):
And there we have it, it did leave early. I believe Rainn Wilson is owed an apology.

What are you, his agent? Their LAX flight arrived at the gate with 10 minutes to spare. 7 passengers would have to gather their luggage, exit the plane, and travel 3 terminals to F. Even if the flight left when it was scheduled, the doors would have closed at 5:24PM. There is now way they could've accomplished all of this in 10 minutes...

For someone who is accusing many posters for making assumptions, you have no idea why their flight was late leaving LAX. There are hundreds of reasons for delays that have nothing to do with the airline. A likely scenario, their departure time was held due to a massive storm front that spanned from northern Michigan to the middle of Mississippi. There is no doubt this choked regular east/west flight routings...

Or, US held the LAX flight for connecting passengers in LAX. Wouldn't that be ironic?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-05 11:09:54 and read 8127 times.



Quoting Flighty (Reply 39):
What if I told you, "depart on time" means nothing if the passengers aren't allowed onboard?

This is just taking govt statistics - chasing. The most flagrant example is when you arrive on a connection -- say 5 people -- and the airline fails to hold a flight, even for 2 minutes for 5-10 customers.

It is a training fail and a customer service fail. Chasing the statistic while totally screwing lots of real people

I'm glad you don't work in the airline operations world (I hope you don't). This isn't about chasing statistics. This is about customer service (maximizing customer service; remember that). and running a lean operation. Period. I use to think that way until I got where i'm at now. Some ask me, why does Delta jump down my throat for a 1 minute delay (talking about agents here). The simple answer is, where do you cross the line. You will initially say 1 minute is okay then it's 2 then it's 5. You don't run an operation that depends so much on TIME MANAGEMENT like that . There are a lot of factors in play here. What about the a/c that's on the ground waiting for that gate? Are they now suppose to hold out 5-10 minutes to wait for a few pax that has an opportunity to be rebooked? Burning fuel and extending out the ground time of the a/c? Every heard of something called standard turn time? A/C is scheduled in at 1500 sheduled back out at 1600. It's a 757 with a standard turn of 50 minutes. It holds out for 10 minutes because of said a/c mind you it didn't actually land until right at 1500 (will still be an ontime flight because of A-14. Shows "in" the gate at 1515. Now the departure time is busted because you must get the 50 minutes to turn it.

Multiply that by the hundreds of flights handled at any given airline's hub and now you see that it isn't as simple as "waiting a few minutes". Crew productivity quickly goes down the toilet as well and one stay at gate can cause 3 or 4 gate changes. Let's also piss those people off because now they have to shuffle down a few gates or maybe even change concourse because of 7 people. I can go on and on and on but again, I hope you don't work for anybody's OPS department.

Remember that key phrase, MAXIMIZING customer service. You try your best to inconveniece the least amount of pax possible. You will NEVER be able to please everyone.

[Edited 2013-05-05 11:15:17]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 11:22:42 and read 8063 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 59):
For someone who is accusing many posters for making assumptions

I am also the someone who asked for actual flight timings data, while the rest of you apologists were making assumptions and just saying there was NO WAY the flight would have pushed early. Well, it did.

They had 20 min to make to connection, reduced to 16 min due to the early push. Making a tough situation even tougher.

Bottom-line: Flights should NEVER depart early unless there is some extraordinary external reason, such as impending ground closure or airspace closure or something.

The fact that Rainn Wilson knew it pushed early when he reached the gate suggests they might have made it if it hadn't. How else would he know it pushed early?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-05 11:30:40 and read 8053 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 60):
This is about customer service and running a lean operation. Period.

Is it? US 4302 is 61% on time with 32 minute average delay doesn't ring well with that statement. I've never scheduled airline but I have scheduled factory productions based on moving WIP between plants and I would have some serious explaining to do with numbers like that.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-05 11:31:38 and read 8043 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 61):
They had 20 min to make to connection, reduced to 16 min due to the early push. Making a tough situation even tougher.

You win, flight left early. Even if the flight left on time, they still would've missed their connection. 7 passengers can not make it off the plane from terminal B to F in 10 minutes.

13 passengers happy, 7 pissed. Can't always please everybody.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-05 11:34:31 and read 8020 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 62):
US 4302 is 61% on time with 32 minute average delay doesn't ring well with that statement.

All the more reason to leave a few minutes early when possible...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 11:37:34 and read 8011 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 64):
All the more reason to leave a few minutes early when possible...

You mean, like take two pills today in case you can't take one tomorrow?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gift4tbone
Posted 2013-05-05 11:43:57 and read 7999 times.

Just to help clear somethings up here.

US uses door closure as official OUT time. Not, parking break, or wheel movement (Though, both have been used in the past). Also, it was a Piedmont Dash-8, requiring the crew to call in the times to PHL OPS. It is common place-though less so in recent times-for crews to 'pad' times, to get paid a little extra. Hope this clarifies some things for this discussion.

-Tony@PVD

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-05-05 12:01:05 and read 7949 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 60):
Multiply that by the hundreds of flights handled at any given airline's hub and now you see that it isn't as simple as "waiting a few minutes".

That's cool, I mean, not totally unacquainted with schedules, but I never analyzed this question.

Question was... don't some airlines hold the door if there are... let's say 20... people inside security who are making their way to the gate? Really thought that was an established case scenario.

Here is a thread from 2006 about it Do Airlines Hold The Last Flight For Delayed Pax? (by D L X Mar 1 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 32):
This scenario apparently happens so often at PHL

And a story about United from March... Shed a tear on this one! Good job UA.
http://www.today.com/travel/airline-...ch-dying-mothers-bedside-1C8727586

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: nutsaboutplanes
Posted 2013-05-05 12:07:13 and read 7925 times.

Quoting gift4tbone (Reply 66):
US uses door closure as official OUT time. Not, parking break, or wheel movement (Though, both have been used in the past). Also, it was a Piedmont Dash-8, requiring the crew to call in the times to PHL OPS. It is common place-though less so in recent times-for crews to 'pad' times, to get paid a little extra. Hope this clarifies some things for this discussion.

I have to correct you here. While several of the express airlines use radio calls for in/ out times, the entire mainline operation uses ACARs and "out" is measured by "brakes released" and "in" is measured by "brakes set".

Door closure is not used as official out time.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: nutsaboutplanes
Posted 2013-05-05 12:10:02 and read 7896 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 67):
Question was... don't some airlines hold the door if there are... let's say 20... people inside security who are making their way to the gate? Really thought that was an established case scenario.

All airlines have people looking at potential inbound miscons and the decision is made largely on what protection is available for mis-connected passengers. When load factors are high (holidays), you are likely to see more conx holds. If it is early in the day and there are seats available on a later flight........no holds!

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-05 12:41:10 and read 7806 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 62):
Is it? US 4302 is 61% on time with 32 minute average delay doesn't ring well with that statement. I've never scheduled airline but I have scheduled factory productions based on moving WIP between plants and I would have some serious explaining to do with numbers like that.



I speaking generally. So good for the G/A for getting said flight that has atrocious on-time performance for being on-time one out of the week lol.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 67):
And a story about United from March... Shed a tear on this one! Good job UA.
http://www.today.com/travel/airline-...27586



I didn't realize Wilson and his cast was trying to see someone on their death bed... What was the point of you posting that anyway?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 67):

Question was... don't some airlines hold the door if there are... let's say 20... people inside security who are making their way to the gate? Really thought that was an established case scenario.



It is but again, it depends. 20 people; even for a mid-day flight with 5 or 6 flights to follow, Delta will probably hold. Coming off on an international inbound and they have no idea of knowing exactly how long it will take everyone to get through customs and make it to the gate? Probably not. Let's also not forget those that will take their time getting there. I once had a supervisor tell me that "you can't wait forever".

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: tymnbalewne
Posted 2013-05-05 13:01:21 and read 7762 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 61):
The fact that Rainn Wilson knew it pushed early when he reached the gate suggests they might have made it if it hadn't. How else would he know it pushed early?

Hmm...let's see...perhaps he looked at USAirways.com?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-05-05 13:07:46 and read 7735 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 70):
I didn't realize Wilson and his cast was trying to see someone on their death bed... What was the point of you posting that anyway?

Oh he wasn't; we are on the same side lol. Of course carrier can't wait forever, or even very often. But, at least it's a decision to work out in a more sophisticated way than "door closes 10 mins prior."

If you need a one-size-fits-all rule, 10m doors is a good one. But there are some relatively harmless things you can do to finesse that (such as holding last flight of the day out of hubs). It will hurt your S:00 "performance" a little, but in reality, true performance is about passenger arrivals...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2013-05-05 13:09:05 and read 7735 times.

Quoting tymnbalewne (Reply 71):
Hmm...let's see...perhaps he looked at USAirways.com?

More likely, the agent told him the doors closed 10 min prior when he was throwing his tantrum at the gate.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: LV
Posted 2013-05-05 13:12:16 and read 7726 times.

I think we are forgetting the more important question here.... it mentions there were seven cast members from the show. Was Jenna Fischer one of them? Now you throw in the factor of you don't inconvenience a goddess like that vs. now you can gawk and drool 20 feet away from her for the next three hours. Maybe we have the gate agents real motive (just kidding)      

Quoting widget1580 (Reply 34):
VIP, whatever. They are C-list celebrities with some washed up sense of entitlement. Too much has to be done within that ten minutes to get the flight out. I completely agree that US made the right choice.

You can debate on their stature but airlines have gone out of their way for VIP guests from time to time. And airlines like to keep celebrities happy. There was a story a few years ago about a US flight from BOS - DCA suddenly getting diverted to ALB. As soon as the door opened in ALB the Bush twins walked on board and flight took off again to ALB. How many pax were inconvenienced there for two people? Was the operation completely thrown off in that case because that plane should have turned and been off again in DCA in the time it took to stop in ALB? And how much did that cost the airline? Of course, there is a difference between seven actors on a sitcom and the daughters of a man who can call the head of the FAA in the middle of the night and tell him to send every inspector to US in the morning and nail the company for anything.

It's just like my job. I am supposed to treat every customer with 100% of effort and act as if they are the difference between our company staying open or closing the doors.... but from time to time my managers tell me I should treat certain customers as 150% and give them a little extra. And celebrities tend to fall into that.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-05 13:59:21 and read 7556 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 64):
All the more reason to leave a few minutes early when possible...

Not at the cost of missing a large portion of passengers.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 70):
I speaking generally. So good for the G/A for getting said flight that has atrocious on-time performance for being on-time one out of the week lol.

Speaking generally, that is horse hockey. You do not provide good customer service by scheduling so tight that you incur delays with high frequency and don't have buffers to handle it. You certainly do not run lean that way.

It never stops to amaze me how people think that well established business practices do not apply to airlines.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-05-05 14:25:23 and read 7498 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 55):

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 54):
I will say this again. Gate agents DO NOT have the authority to hold flights at US Airways or Express.

802flyguy -- did you see the flight pushed back 4 minutes early? Now what's the excuse?

The G/A is expected to follow the 10 min door close; after that she/he no has control over when the flight actually does leave the gate. The reason for the 10 min door close has been covered several times.

[Edited 2013-05-05 14:30:45]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-05 16:48:12 and read 7276 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 75):
Not at the cost of missing a large portion of passengers.

US still received their airfare, plus they saved a thousand or so pounds for the next flight. This "incident" will have no bearing on whether or not people choose to fly US Air. From a business perspective, I don't see where US did anything wrong...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-05 17:26:33 and read 7182 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 77):
US still received their airfare, plus they saved a thousand or so pounds for the next flight.

Great, don't deliver what you sell.... A solid business model toward bankruptcy.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 77):
This "incident" will have no bearing on whether or not people choose to fly US Air.

It won't? Pretty sure they have lost at least one customer on this incident. How much revenue do you think that represent? I used to fly LH transatlantic monthly. I stopped because they failed to address the failure of providing the vegetarian meal I always ordered. We spent half a million a year.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 77):
From a business perspective, I don't see where US did anything wrong...

At the very minimum they failed to communicate properly with their customers.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-05-05 17:41:33 and read 7135 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 3):
Sure, but how does that justify the connecting flight leaving *early*?

Once the boarding door at the gate is closed it's a done deal. The agents are doing the final numbers and then giving the paperwork to the crew so they can do theirs. Once that 10 min mark is hit the flight can push whenever.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-05-05 17:53:00 and read 7109 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 15):
But from Wilson's tweet ("“The plane was a 20 seater, missing 7 people who had obviously just landed & it leaves 10 minutes EARLY!"), it is not clear if whether it was just closed 10 minutes prior to departure, or whether it pushed back 10 minutes early. If the former, you point is valid. But if the latter, then US has some explaining to do.

20 seater huh? This guy is an idiot. It was either a DASH-8, which last time I looked carried 37 people or a CRJ-200, which seats 50.

Quoting gift4tbone (Reply 66):
US uses door closure as official OUT time. Not, parking break, or wheel movement (Though, both have been used in the past). Also, it was a Piedmont Dash-8, requiring the crew to call in the times to PHL OPS. It is common place-though less so in recent times-for crews to 'pad' times, to get paid a little extra. Hope this clarifies some things for this discussion.

Incorrect. The DASH fleet needs to be pushed to get an out time. They no longer call their times unless their version of the ACARS is inop. With PSA you must also push the plane to get an out time. Same with some of the Air Wisconsin aircraft.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: capitalflyer
Posted 2013-05-05 18:00:57 and read 7070 times.

1. Anyone who can't wait 10 minutes for some folks who are late because their previous flight was late is a jerk. 10 minutes is not that big a deal and can be made up in the air often. If you book your next connection so tight that 10 minutes breaks you, then that's your own dumb fault. If the late people are just late overall not because of a previous flight delay, then leave them behind.

2. Seriously, NBC couldn't let them use a private jet? For God sakes it is a one time series ending party. Pencil heads at NBC are the real problem in this particular situation. Rainn was probably already pissed that NBC made them fly commercial, which I would be too if I were that big a star and made NBC a ton of money. That said, don't be a fool Rainn. Send out one tweet saying this sucked and move on.

3. US Airways, look at you passenger manifest. If it reads Rainn Wilson, Jenna Fischer, etc. and the flight is going to Scranton, you should probably hold the flight. Idiots bought themselves a butt load of bad press which could have been easily avoided.

Lots of blame to go around here.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-05 18:07:17 and read 7040 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 78):
Great, don't deliver what you sell.... A solid business model toward bankruptcy.

They delivered what they sold to every single passenger on the flight. Assuming the flight was full, the 13 passengers that actually made the flight left on time and The Office crew were booked on the very next flight. There is nothing in the sale of a ticket that states a flight will be held so passengers can make their connection. So yes, they delivered exactly what they sold...

Quoting cmf (Reply 78):
It won't? Pretty sure they have lost at least one customer on this incident. How much revenue do you think that represent?

Don't know and that is clearly a risk US Air is willing to take to try and stay on schedule as much as possible. I'm willing to bet that somewhere in the world, a customer vowed to never again fly Delta, or United, or insert airline *here.* US lost Rainn, but maybe they gained three other passengers for the same reason.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-05-05 18:19:50 and read 7001 times.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 81):
Anyone who can't wait 10 minutes for some folks who are late because their previous flight was late is a jerk. 10 minutes is not that big a deal and can be made up in the air often.

You obviously know nothing about on-time performance, that's why the door closes 10 min beforehand so everyone from the ramp to the crew can get the numbers right for an on-time flight. The Gate Agent was correct in what he/she did in this situation. If it was the last flight of the night then it may have been a different story and even then it's almost impossible to get an ok to hold a flight.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-05-05 18:20:41 and read 6993 times.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 81):
Anyone who can't wait 10 minutes for some folks who are late because their previous flight was late is a jerk. 10 minutes is not that big a deal and can be made up in the air often. If you book your next connection so tight that 10 minutes breaks you, then that's your own dumb fault

We're not taking 10 minutes here:

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 52):
5:14PM
Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 52):
5:30PM

Presuming those times are correct, and I have no reason to doubt them, then it would have been almost physically impossible for them to have made the flight, even with the 20 minutes they were "owed" had it departed at the scheduled time.

Here the agent may well have checked the incoming flight, and determined that they weren't going to make it. If there was a chance they could have made it on-time then maybe they would have considered holding the aircraft? But there was no chance they could have done so unless a limo had taken them from aircraft door to aircraft door.

In this situation I'm not sure what people are so upset about?

Looking at the schedules it looks like there was a 29 minute turn at AVP. Given that Piedmont routinely have 20 minute turns, then perhaps they could have held the flight to T+10 at PHL and still left AVP on time. That's presuming, though, that there was no congestion etc. We're talking about PHL at 5:30pm, maybe they expected to wait in line for 30 minutes before wheels up? That would have put pressure on the return flight to PHL, and those passengers could have missed their connections. Nobody's talking about mis-connects at AVP, but that could have put pressure on the 7:35 arrival into PHL, and those passengers might well have been rushing for the last flight of the day.

Quoting cmf (Reply 78):
Great, don't deliver what you sell.... A solid business model toward bankruptcy.

To be fair to US, they did intend to deliver what they sold by re-booking them on the next available flight. If the customer decides to not partake themselves of the service that they purchase then that's their prerogative.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: wn676
Posted 2013-05-05 18:20:47 and read 6996 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 61):
They had 20 min to make to connection, reduced to 16 min due to the early push. Making a tough situation even tougher.

No, they had 10 minutes to make their connection because officially the flight needs to be closed 10 minutes prior to departure to allow for weight and balance calculations to be performed. This is especially true in cases where this process is completed manually, or when there are weight restrictions involved. It is the policy of this carrier - all passengers must be in the boarding area or on the plane by that time - and very similar to those of others airlines, as outlined in the respective CoC.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 61):
Bottom-line: Flights should NEVER depart early unless there is some extraordinary external reason, such as impending ground closure or airspace closure or something.

The time buffer between boarding cut-off and departure time is given to allow for the close-out process to be completed and any unforeseen issues related to that resolved. That means that it is possible and perfectly logical to assume that a flight will depart a few minutes ahead of schedule if this process is completed early, because at that point, waiting until departure time is rather pointless.

Of couse this is not done 100% of the time as some flights do get held for connecting passengers. Holds, however, are done on a case-by-case basis using a method that attempts to minimize the impact to the customer. This is not strictly limited to those already affected. If ops determines that holding for late connecting passengers will have a greater adverse effect (or increase that risk) on other customers than leaving without them, then they are well within their right to allow that flight to depart as scheduled. Especially if there were two other flights that day that were able to accomodate the misconnects and keep that issue isolated from the rest of the system.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Caspian27
Posted 2013-05-05 18:25:55 and read 6984 times.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 76):
The G/A is expected to follow the 10 min door close; after that she/he no has control over when the flight actually does leave the gate. The reason for the 10 min door close has been covered several times.

Bingo! If the gate door is closed that means the crew has the pax count and the cargo load report. There is NO requirement to wait to push until the actual departure time. The gate door isn't going to open again.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-05 18:34:32 and read 6967 times.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 80):
20 seater huh? This guy is an idiot. It was either a DASH-8, which last time I looked carried 37 people or a CRJ-200, which seats 50.

You are right, in fact, US Ariways has two versions of the Dash-8, where the -300 version carries 50 passengers. Either way, much more than 20...

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 81):
US Airways, look at you passenger manifest. If it reads Rainn Wilson, Jenna Fischer, etc. and the flight is going to Scranton, you should probably hold the flight.

Maybe on a small flight like this the G/A's would read the actual names on the manifest, but in most cases, they are more concerned with numbers than actual names. Keep in mind, we are not talking Leonardio DiCaprio or LeBron James. The actors from The Office are not household names (other than Steve Carrell and maybe Andy, who's real name escapes me at the moment). I follow The Office, but the above names you mentioned would not jump off the passenger manifest at me...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-05-05 18:57:44 and read 6887 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 87):
Dash-8, where the -300 version carries 50 passengers

Been a while since those were operating out of PHL. I believe last summer was the last time they were regularly scheduled there.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 87):
LeBron James.

I would have made sure it left 30 min early!

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 18:58:09 and read 6886 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 77):
US still received their airfare, plus they saved a thousand or so pounds for the next flight. This "incident" will have no bearing on whether or not people choose to fly US Air. From a business perspective, I don't see where US did anything wrong...

Sold them a connecting flight, but a delay to their own incoming flight caused them to miss their connection. So it is not like they did everything correct, even if you believe that the Scranton flight pushing 4 minutes early is not an issue.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 79):
Once the boarding door at the gate is closed it's a done deal. The agents are doing the final numbers and then giving the paperwork to the crew so they can do theirs. Once that 10 min mark is hit the flight can push whenever.

Perhaps it is this dogmatism that needs to change. Perhaps 10 min gate close should be a guideline, especially for Dash flights where it evidently can take as little as 6 minutes from gate close to push back?

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 80):
20 seater huh? This guy is an idiot. It was either a DASH-8, which last time I looked carried 37 people

He was making a point that is was a small commuter plane and 7 pax is a large proportion of a commuter prop. Don't think you can call your customers idiots for not knowing the exact seat count of a Dash-8, his larger point still stands.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 82):
So yes, they delivered exactly what they sold...

They sold a connection onto a specific flight. They did not sell a standby, try your luck, see if you'll make the connection flight ticket. Regardless of what the fine print says, they clearly did not deliver exactly what was sold.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 85):
Especially if there were two other flights that day that were able to accomodate the misconnects and keep that issue isolated from the rest of the system.

One other flight, three hours later. Which is longer than the time it takes to drive to the destination.

Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 86):
Bingo! If the gate door is closed that means the crew has the pax count and the cargo load report. There is NO requirement to wait to push until the actual departure time. The gate door isn't going to open again.

Again, perhaps this suggests some common sense needs to be used, and the 10 min rule not be applied dogmatically and blindly.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-05-05 19:20:00 and read 6827 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 89):
Again, perhaps this suggests some common sense needs to be used, and the 10 min rule not be applied dogmatically and blindly.

It's standard procedure.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 19:28:26 and read 6788 times.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 90):
It's standard procedure.

Yes, which is why I said some common sense needs to be applied at times. Any customer facing business like an airline is judged by how they handle the exceptions that require human judgment, as opposed to blindly following standard procedure.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-05 19:29:07 and read 6791 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 82):
They delivered what they sold to every single passenger on the flight.

Did they? You make a lot of claims that I doubt you have the data to back them up. Do you know that none of the passengers on that flight shouldn't have been on an earlier flight.. That aside, we do know they failed to deliver to 7 passengers. No doubt about that.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 83):
You obviously know nothing about on-time performance

I know that the flight is 30 minutes late almost as often as it is on time. Either they have a way of handling that very common 30 minute delay or they are selling something they know they are likely not delivering.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 84):
To be fair to US, they did intend to deliver what they sold by re-booking them on the next available flight

No, they failed to deliver what they sold. They then intended to deliver the option that they considered best for them.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 85):
It is the policy of this carrier

Don't use policy as a shield.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 85):
Holds, however, are done on a case-by-case basis using a method that attempts to minimize the impact to the customer.

LMFTFY
Holds, however, are done on a case-by-case basis using a method that attempts to minimize cost to the airline.

NOTE:
I'm not saying that they should have held the flight for them. I am saying two things 1) They airline f$#% up communication to the affected passengers. US had some 5 hours to realize they had a problem, find a solution and inform the passengers. Some airlines have done this more than a decade already. 2) Some people are just incredible airline apologists. It should be obvious that the airline failed to deliver in this case. Don't make up excuses for the airline and blame it on the passengers. Certainly don't justify it with poor routines. It is inexcusable that a flight like that should average 32 minutes delay 2 out of every 5 departures.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Caspian27
Posted 2013-05-05 19:33:53 and read 6761 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 89):
Again, perhaps this suggests some common sense needs to be used, and the 10 min rule not be applied dogmatically and blindly.

How can something as simple as a policy to close the door 10 minutes early (which is pretty universally applied at most airlines) be applied "dogmatically and blindly?" People who fly often know the gate is going to close 10 minutes early and sometimes due to circumstances beyond control of either the airline or the passenger connections are missed. Odds are the root cause of the delay was weather related. Is that the fault of the airline? And yes, airlines do sometimes hold connections as it has been mentioned, but this is not the gate agents call to make. I honestly don't see why this is such a big deal to you; either you just don't fly that often or you're Rainn Wilson.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-05 19:42:10 and read 6722 times.

For those of you who are actually in the airline industry, please correct me if I am wrong, but passengers miss connections everyday for various reasons. If this same scenario happened to me, or anybody else in this thread, no one would care! Shit happens, and if you fly enough, it will happen to you and most likely already has, many times. And we all continue to fly, in most cases the same airline that "screwed us over." This is not a big deal.

Rainn got his 15 minutes of fame via Twitter, because he has no future after The Office. Kramer 2.0

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: capitalflyer
Posted 2013-05-05 19:44:21 and read 6709 times.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 83):
You obviously know nothing about on-time performance, that's why the door closes 10 min beforehand so everyone from the ramp to the crew can get the numbers right for an on-time flight.

Screw the numbers. They would reap ten fold for a little courtesy from time to time. This is why airline travel sucks. Everybody looking at the numbers and not looking up to see the customers they are supposed to be serving.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-05-05 19:49:18 and read 6699 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 94):
For those of you who are actually in the airline industry, please correct me if I am wrong, but passengers miss connections everyday for various reasons. If this same scenario happened to me, or anybody else in this thread, no one would care! Shit happens, and if you fly enough, it will happen to you and most likely already has, many times. And we all continue to fly, in most cases the same airline that "screwed us over." This is not a big deal.

You are correct, I see it everyday.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 20:02:33 and read 6669 times.

Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 93):
I honestly don't see why this is such a big deal to you; either you just don't fly that often or you're Rainn Wilson.

Thanks, but I fly often enough to be highest or second highest level elite on 4 different airlines, three of them non-US. It is a big deal because I am just tired of airline apologists who always blame and mock the customer, gratuitous professional and personal insults included, and hide behind policy and SOPs rather than at least empathize with the customer's point of view, especially when the airline itself caused the misconnect.

Adding salt to the wound is the fact the connection left early (regardless of whether the pax would have made it or not). The pax is upset. Empathize, airline people, they pay YOUR salary.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 94):
Rainn got his 15 minutes of fame via Twitter, because he has no future after The Office.

Yup, 9 years of fame, so he was just looking for 15 minutes more. Personal attacks on an upset customer is not the way to run a customer facing business.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 94):
Shit happens, and if you fly enough, it will happen to you and most likely already has, many times.

Yes, it has. And how the misconnect was handled, how I was treated by the staff (with empathy or not), and how I was communicated to, made a lot of difference.

I once had a situation where I was connecting with my family from a much delayed inbound CO flight on a separate ticket, to the SQ EWR-SIN non-stop. I literally had 10 minutes to go when I reached the check-in counter. The SQ staff had the BPs ready (I had called them from the CO flight), grabbed our bags. and two staff grabbed my two kids (2 and 4) and *ran with them* with us following to security, and got us on the aircraft with maybe a minute to spare. The aircraft door literally slammed shut behind us. They could have easily followed SOP, but they went above and beyond. THAT is what creates loyal customers!

[Edited 2013-05-05 20:07:56]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: LAXLocal
Posted 2013-05-05 20:04:18 and read 6657 times.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 79):
Once the boarding door at the gate is closed it's a done deal. The agents are doing the final numbers and then giving the paperwork to the crew so they can do theirs. Once that 10 min mark is hit the flight can push whenever.

That is a false statement.

LAXLocal

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-05-05 20:09:41 and read 6638 times.

Quoting LAXLocal (Reply 98):
That is a false statement

Really? Considering I deal with it everyday. Your right I have no idea what i'm talking about. Only in extreme situations will boarding continue under the 10 min mark.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: LAXLocal
Posted 2013-05-05 20:17:36 and read 6615 times.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 99):

I guess you are not a GA at a international station then. It happens often.

LAXLocal

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-05 20:22:07 and read 6598 times.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 99):
Only in extreme situations will boarding continue under the 10 min mark.
Quoting LAXLocal (Reply 100):
It happens often.

Agreed, it is absolutely not uncommon to see passengers (esp connecting pax) board flights well under the 10 min mark. The 10 min gate close is a goal, not an ironclad dictat.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-05-05 20:37:15 and read 6573 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 92):
No, they failed to deliver what they sold

I'm sorry, but they delivered everything that they were contractually required to.

These 7 passengers almost certainly could not have made it to the flight. Maybe Piedmont could have closed the door at 5:34 and pushed back at 5:40, but they most likely would still not have been on the aircraft.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 97):
Adding salt to the wound is the fact the connection left early (regardless of whether the pax would have made it or not)

But would closing the door at 5:34 have made any difference? On the balance of probabilities almost certainly not. Let's credit the GA to have a brain, and actually checked the status of the inbound passengers, and made an informed decision that they weren't going to make regardless of whether the door closed at T-10 or T.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 95):
Screw the numbers. They would reap ten fold for a little courtesy from time to time. This is why airline travel sucks

I'm about to use a bunch of hypotheticals, which probably don't apply in this case, but you'll pick up my drift.

They wait for the customers, who arrive at 5:39 (25 minutes from B to F is still cutting it fine). The aircraft pushes back at 5:45, 11 behind schedule. It sits for a while in a line for departure, and arrives in AVP 20 behind schedule. It's only a short flight, you're not going to make up much time. It leaves AVP 20 behind schedule, goes into a holding pattern at PHL, on stand 30 behind schedule. These passengers are connecting to the last bank of flights for the night. They hold all those flights, so they're now 30+ behind. They arrive at the outstation for RON 45 behind schedule. That's taken the crew below their minimum rest requirements, so you have to delay flights the next morning. They're late into the hub, so you hold the flights for the connections.... and so on and so on

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 94):
If this same scenario happened to me, or anybody else in this thread, no one would care! Shit happens, and if you fly enough, it will happen to you and most likely already has, many times. And we all continue to fly, in most cases the same airline that "screwed us over." This is not a big deal.

That's what I was thinking. Today alone the same thing has probably happened with DL at MSP, UA at SFO and AA at ORD.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: usflyer msp
Posted 2013-05-05 20:44:20 and read 6549 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 97):
I once had a situation where I was connecting with my family from a much delayed inbound CO flight on a separate ticket, to the SQ EWR-SIN non-stop. I literally had 10 minutes to go when I reached the check-in counter. The SQ staff had the BPs ready (I had called them from the CO flight), grabbed our bags. and two staff grabbed my two kids (2 and 4) and *ran with them* with us following to security, and got us on the aircraft with maybe a minute to spare. The aircraft door literally slammed shut behind us. They could have easily followed SOP, but they went above and beyond. THAT is what creates loyal customers!

That is nice but I highly doubt SQ would have gone through all that trouble if there was another flight they could have put you on 3 hours later. When a flight only operates 1x daily or less there is alot more incentive to hold flights for connecting pax...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-05-05 21:14:57 and read 6485 times.

[/quote]



Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 94):
For those of you who are actually in the airline industry, please correct me if I am wrong, but passengers miss connections everyday for various reasons. I

BINGO, It happens many times at day, probably it happened to other people who were on that LAX flight. Yes, it sucks. But delays are a fact of travel. The only reason were are talking about this is that it happened to a celeb with Twitter feed and a DYKWIA attitude (a celeb who does not merit an Learjet charter   ). The reasons for what happened have been cover several times and very well by RyanairGuru in reply 84.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 97):
Adding salt to the wound is the fact the connection left early (regardless of whether the pax would have made it or not). The pax is upset. Empathize, airline people, they pay YOUR salary.

sankaps, showing empathy for customer is something that most agents certainly like to do. Empathy is fine; risking a delay is not. It is no fun to tell customers they have missed a flight, but a lot easier than trying to explain a delay to a manager.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: fraspotter
Posted 2013-05-05 21:45:01 and read 6427 times.

People need to realize that the departure time written on their boarding pass is not the time the doors close. It is normally the push back time from the gate. But I guess when people want to try and make a point on Twitter, they don't need to know the facts...  

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-05 21:51:52 and read 6427 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 75):
Speaking generally, that is horse hockey. You do not provide good customer service by scheduling so tight that you incur delays with high frequency and don't have buffers to handle it. You certainly do not run lean that way.

Their flight departed late (out of LAX(...for all we know because of LATE CONNECTING or LOCAL PASSENGERS LOL. Oh the irony. Don't you see the domino effect already?

Quoting cmf (Reply 75):
It never stops to amaze me how people think that well established business practices do not apply to airlines.

Well established business practices are being used. If anything ,the fact that accountability is being drilled more than ever these days and sticking to what works shows that on-time performance, baggage numbers and DOT complaints are AT ITS BEST SINCE REPORTING STARTED. And I assure you that there are plenty of things for passengers to complain about.

Quoting cmf (Reply 78):
At the very minimum they failed to communicate properly with their customers.

How so specifically. I don't follow.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 81):
1. Anyone who can't wait 10 minutes for some folks who are late because their previous flight was late is a jerk. 10 minutes is not that big a deal and can be made up in the air often. If you book your next connection so tight that 10 minutes breaks you, then that's your own dumb fault. If the late people are just late overall not because of a previous flight delay, then leave them behind.

Are you serious? They may or may not have made it even if they waited until departure time. Now they flight departs late for absolutely no reason. Just an FYI, most airlines have an auto-rebook engine. If you're late coming in and you have a connection, and there are no official holds set in place by OPS, then all pax that fall under the misconnect category are rebooked. Many times before they even get off the plane.

I'm not saying this is what happened but if I see pax land on another side of the airport and they only have 18 minutes to get off the plane and to the new gate AT departure time then it stands to reason that these passengers are misconnects. Couple the fact that there were additional flights to AVP following this one.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 81):
3. US Airways, look at you passenger manifest. If it reads Rainn Wilson, Jenna Fischer, etc. and the flight is going to Scranton, you should probably hold the flight. Idiots bought themselves a butt load of bad press which could have been easily avoided.

LOL nobody does that. PERHAPS, if their studio took the effort to arrange VIP/concierge services with US then someone would have been taking a harder look.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 89):
Sold them a connecting flight, but a delay to their own incoming flight caused them to miss their connection. So it is not like they did everything correct, even if you believe that the Scranton flight pushing 4 minutes early is not an issue.

Happens every single day on almost every flight with every airline. Not making excuses. It is what it is. Are you suppose to hold every single departure for miss connections?

Quoting sankaps (Reply 89):
Perhaps it is this dogmatism that needs to change. Perhaps 10 min gate close should be a guideline, especially for Dash flights where it evidently can take as little as 6 minutes from gate close to push back?

It is a guideline. Let's be clear. Gate holds happen every day as well, too and not just for the last flight of the night. It's evaluated on a case by case basis. In this case, there was no hold. Again, you can't wait forever and you can't hold every flight.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 89):
Again, perhaps this suggests some common sense needs to be used, and the 10 min rule not be applied dogmatically and blindly.

Are you missing something? Because of this one example, it means US (or any other domestic US airline for that matter) never holds flights for passengers? It happens every single day. Trust me.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 95):
Screw the numbers.

That makes a lot of sense.

Quoting capitalflyer (Reply 95):
They would reap ten fold for a little courtesy from time to time.

Courtesy is extended from time to time. Just not this time. Perhaps courtesy was extended on their LAX-PHL flight...thus making them late...thus making them miss their connection...hen we hold the PHL-AVP flight; causing that one to get in late...which has to quick-turn back to PHL...with connecting passengers...coming in late.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 01:41:13 and read 6270 times.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 103):
That is nice but I highly doubt SQ would have gone through all that trouble if there was another flight they could have put you on 3 hours later.
Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 103):
When a flight only operates 1x daily or less there is alot more incentive to hold flights for connecting pax...

Sure, but would US or UA or other legacy US carriers have gone through this trouble? They would more than likely just have just said "tough luck, your incoming flight was on a separate ticket, not our problem you missed this flight, now you have to buy a new ticket if you want to get to your destination since you were a no-show on the flight you were booked on".

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106):

Happens every single day on almost every flight with every airline. Not making excuses. It is what it is. Are you suppose to hold every single departure for miss connections?
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106):

Are you missing something? Because of this one example, it means US (or any other domestic US airline for that matter) never holds flights for passengers? It happens every single day. Trust me.

I am not missing anything. I am making the same point you are that the 10 minute rule is not cast in stone, in response to all those who are saying "10 min gate close is mandatory, tough luck if you don't like it or are too dumb to understand it".

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: skywaymanaz
Posted 2013-05-06 04:18:14 and read 6141 times.

Quoting LV (Reply 74):

There was a thread on this incident at the time that flag stops are done in unusual circumstances like this when enough people are stranded at the end of the day. There was also an episode of Airline not long after this incident where they had some bumped passengers accommodated by making a flag stop too. WN policy in the episode was stated as requiring a minimum of 20 to add a flag stop. They ended up getting 17 or 18 and mgmt approved it. I recall a similar number involved in the Bush twins incident but their SS escort probably helped meet the head count required by US mgmt. I'm sure some people were not happy being delayed by US for that flag stop. The Airline episode featured numerous passengers upset they'd be delayed reaching their destination due a flag stop in the middle. Many saying WN should have done the flag stop after their flight. The plane needed to start the next day from their destination though.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-06 04:47:08 and read 6097 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 102):
I'm sorry, but they delivered everything that they were contractually required to.

They failed to deliver the itinerary they sold. That means they failed to deliver. That they use small print to make make sure that is considered close enough for there not to be any penalties doesn't change that t hey failed to deliver what was sold.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 102):
These 7 passengers almost certainly could not have made it to the flight. Maybe Piedmont could have closed the door at 5:34 and pushed back at 5:40, but they most likely would still not have been on the aircraft.

Why I have stated the the most direct failure is communication.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 102):
They're late into the hub, so you hold the flights for the connections.... and so on and so on

Based on the on-time statistics that is happening 39% of the time. Seems US has a fundamental problem.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 102):
That's what I was thinking. Today alone the same thing has probably happened with DL at MSP, UA at SFO and AA at ORD.

So that makes is all right then...

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106):
Their flight departed late (out of LAX(...for all we know because of LATE CONNECTING or LOCAL PASSENGERS LOL. Oh the irony. Don't you see the domino effect already?

I see a systematic failure that airlines cover with fine print and reliance on everyone else being as bad. I also see a lot of people justifying the failure instead of addressing it. Like making up reasons where passengers are blamed instead of the airlines applying rules differently on two flights on the same itinerary.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106):
Well established business practices are being used.

39% of flights arriving more than 15 minutes late. 16% on system level. can't think of any other industry where such poor performance is accepted.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106):
If anything ,the fact that accountability is being drilled more than ever these days and sticking to what works

About bloody time. Hopefully this will mean they will start using the kind of yardsticks used in other industries instead of the manipulated statistics and frequent use of fine print to pretend they delivered when they didn't.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106):
AT ITS BEST SINCE REPORTING STARTED

That sounds great but it really isn't important. Certainly doesn't warrant the use of capitals. What is important is the actual numbers. Not if people report or not.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106):
And I assure you that there are plenty of things for passengers to complain about.

I know, you know, everyone knows. It has been there for decades. Isn't that sad?

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106):
How so specifically. I don't follow.

Isn't that telling. A person stating he is on the inside of the airlines and don't understand the communication problem. Simply put. With proper communication customers will accept just about any mistake you make. You certainly will not have them complain about them missing a flight because you sent it out early. Instead you will have them state they missed their connection because of late arrival and will soon continue to destination.
It is not uncommon that a customer experience a failure of some kind become the most vocal ambassadors because of how you deal with them in that situation. Customers for whom everything goes right tend to just expect it.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 106):
Happens every single day on almost every flight with every airline. Not making excuses. It is what it is

Sorry, but making excuses is what you do when you defend a system that generate this kind of problems with very high frequency and let it go with - it is what it is.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 107):
I am not missing anything. I am making the same point you are that the 10 minute rule is not cast in stone, in response to all those who are saying "10 min gate close is mandatory, tough luck if you don't like it or are too dumb to understand it".

     Spot on. The randomness in how things are applied is a major part of the problem.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-06 05:07:56 and read 6032 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 109):
Spot on. The randomness in how things are applied is a major part of the problem.

Do you actually speak with every gate agent that decides whether or not to hold a plane for incoming passengers? I guarantee you this was not random. I would bet if this was the last flight out to Scranton or the next two were booked solid, they would've held this plane for The Office crew. The G/A's knew they could get them on the next flight.

The amount of things that have to go right for aircraft to leave and arrive on time is astonishing when you think about. So in the event of a delay or whatever else sets a passenger off, it's better to just let it go and get on the next flight and arrive a little late.

The incorrect way to handle it? Tweet or twit or whatever it's called that you are going to sh!t on the cockpit window and fondle Doug Parker. That will garner all kinds of sympathy...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-05-06 05:29:21 and read 5990 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 109):
They failed to deliver the itinerary they sold

No, they delivered the itinerary as contracted: they were ready, willing, and able to transport the customer from LAX to AVP.

US had every intention of carrying the customer on the exact flights booked, and when that wasn't possible they offered the next best alternative. If the customer determines that they no longer want such carriage that is not a breach of contract by US.

If you read the contract of carriage, you will see that US (nor, indeed, UA, AA, DL, BA, EK, SQ, CX etc etc) does not guarantee to carry you on the flight you booked if, for operational reasons etc. that is impossible to do. Whether or not the passenger wanted to be on that flight is not actually relevant to any discussion of whether US 'failed to deliver'

Quoting cmf (Reply 109):
So that makes is all right then

That wasn't my point. I was getting at this happens every single day, and we don't have a thread with 110 posts on it on ANet.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 05:35:36 and read 5973 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111):
No, they delivered the itinerary as contracted: they were ready, willing, and able to transport the customer from LAX to AVP.
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111):
If you read the contract of carriage

Again, no wonder sometimes passengers are driven to lawyers, since otherwise everything would be excused and justified by pointing to the fine print.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-06 05:54:42 and read 5925 times.

And do you know what a self respecting lawyer would say to Rainn in this situation? Take a hike, buddy...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: AAIL86
Posted 2013-05-06 07:52:22 and read 5724 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111):
If you read the contract of carriage, you will see that US (nor, indeed, UA, AA, DL, BA, EK, SQ, CX etc etc) does not guarantee to carry you on the flight you booked if, for operational reasons etc. that is impossible to do. Whether or not the passenger wanted to be on that flight is not actually relevant to any discussion of whether US 'failed to deliver'

Quoting cmf (Reply 109):
So that makes is all right then

That wasn't my point. I was getting at this happens every single day, and we don't have a thread with 110 posts on it on ANet.

At large hubs like PHL/ORD/EWR/CLT/ALT/DFW etc hundreds or even thousands(on bad days) of passengers miss their connections on a daily basis. It is a mathematical certainty of the hub & spoke system. Holding planes for connecting customers is usually a bad idea in most cases as it usually delays more people then it helps...

Also, it does seem that some of us are forgetting what a departure time actually is here - a plane is supposed pushing back from the gate at that time and therefore the boarding door must be closed several minutes before departure (in some cases, up to 15 minutes before). Very frustrating to make it to your gate at departure and see the plane still sitting there, but it happens :|

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-06 08:01:23 and read 5676 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 110):
I guarantee you this was not random.

So you speak with every gate agent...

It is random because the affected passengers don't know what is happening. It comes back to communication, again.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 110):
it's better to just let it go and get on the next flight and arrive a little late.
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111):
US had every intention of carrying the customer on the exact flights booked

And that is the difference between delivering what was sold and what is in the fine print. The expectations with the customer was clear and it wasn't delivered.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111):
Whether or not the passenger wanted to be on that flight is not actually relevant to any discussion of whether US 'failed to deliver'

Of course it is relevant. Whenever you fail to deliver what the customer is expecting it is a failure. If the reason is that you couldn't deliver what you said or that you set expectations wrong doesn't matter.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 111):
That wasn't my point. I was getting at this happens every single day, and we don't have a thread with 110 posts on it on ANet.

You're using that it is happening multiple times a day as justification. It isn't justification. Every single time is a failure. The acceptance you display is scary and would be reason for termination in many places.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 112):
Again, no wonder sometimes passengers are driven to lawyers, since otherwise everything would be excused and justified by pointing to the fine print.

Lawyers are rarely useful since other lawyers have written the contracts to be lopsided to the advantage of the airlines.

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 114):
Also, it does seem that some of us are forgetting what a departure time actually is here - a plane is supposed pushing back from the gate at that time and therefore the boarding door must be closed several minutes before departure

Another of the crazy industry things. Write the time you need to be at the gate. Don't write when you want to push the plane and then make customers figure out if that means you have to be there 10, 20 or whatever time the airline happens to use for that kind of flight.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-05-06 08:01:36 and read 5677 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):

Oooh memories of Terminal F.....bad memories.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 15):

I am not perfect, but I have little respect for people who either twist the story or fight with facts that are incorrect. US doesn't operate 20 seats but I guess a 37-seater with 7 missing isn't as dramatic as a 20 seater missing 7 people.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-06 08:17:39 and read 5621 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 115):
So you speak with every gate agent...

It is random because the affected passengers don't know what is happening. It comes back to communication, again.

How does that make it random? We are talking about a multi-billion dollar corporation, where profit margins are slim and in a lot of cases, none. Every move is calculated and scrutinized. Airlines and any other business work very hard to remove random events...

I definitely respect your opinion, and ours certainly differ  , but i think we can both agree that this event wasn't the first and won't be the last. One thing I can guarantee, if Rainn spoke to the gate agents in the same fashion he took to Twitter, I hope US tells him to please find another airline. What a terrible way to handle a situation and look like a massive Dbag at the same time..

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-05-06 08:21:32 and read 5604 times.

I know that some will call me an apologist for the big, evil, airline companies. But the sad reality is that air travel is not rainbows and unicorns. I daresay that no venture as mind numbingly complex as a major airline can ever run as well as people might like. But the system does work pretty well most of the time. It is unfortunate that Mr Wilson and the other cast members were late for their party, but these things do happen. (Armchair experts notwithstanding)

Let's all take a deep breath and listen to Louis CK on air travel again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk

Go to the 4:00 mark for the air travel bit (but, before that, the stuff about mobile phone is good, too).

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-06 08:50:54 and read 5534 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 107):
Sure, but would US or UA or other legacy US carriers have gone through this trouble? They would more than likely just have just said "tough luck, your incoming flight was on a separate ticket, not our problem you missed this flight, now you have to buy a new ticket if you want to get to your destination since you were a no-show on the flight you were booked on".



Why wouldn't they? I've seen an agent at RDU escort a family of 4 through security to get to their gate to catch their flight to Atlanta that was scheduled to depart in 20 minutes with the TSA line being a mile long. Everyone isn't evil and again it is applied on a case-by-case basis. You can't do that for every single person that shows up to the airport late, can you?

Quoting cmf (Reply 109):
hat sounds great but it really isn't important. Certainly doesn't warrant the use of capitals. What is important is the actual numbers. Not if people report or not.



Why is it not important??

Quoting cmf (Reply 109):
sn't that telling. A person stating he is on the inside of the airlines and don't understand the communication problem. Simply put. With proper communication customers will accept just about any mistake you make. You certainly will not have them complain about them missing a flight because you sent it out early. Instead you will have them state they missed their connection because of late arrival and will soon continue to destination.
It is not uncommon that a customer experience a failure of some kind become the most vocal ambassadors because of how you deal with them in that situation. Customers for whom everything goes right tend to just expect it.



Seems to me like you know how the conversation went. She could have been as genuine as she could have been...even after realizing who he was. Maybe he's just an ass. Ever thought of that? You above statement about "using proper communication" customers will accept about any mistake makes me thing you do not work in a customer facing job. And if you do, please tell me where you work because i'd love to have your customers. When folks are angery they sometimes can't even HEAR what you're saying. All they know is that their flight is gone. I still can't believe what you said.

Quoting cmf (Reply 109):
Sorry, but making excuses is what you do when you defend a system that generate this kind of problems with very high frequency and let it go with - it is what it is.



Okay. So airplanes don't break down. It never rains. It never snows. There's never ATC delays. There's never long take-off lines. Catering is on and off the a/c when they should 100% of the time. An a/c is NEVER overfueled. An a/c is NEVER underfueled. There's NEVER a disruptive pax that needs to be removed. Crews are NEVER late. So that I understand what you're saying. Where you work, everythin goes right 100% of the time, right? When a flight departs late, it is always the airline's fault, right. It can never be an outside factor completely out of their control, right.

Take it one step further. Earlier, you tried to say that because of the way schedules are built and a/c are routed, there's no room for hick-ups such as these thuse people miss their flights. Well, i'm sure you'd much prefer a/c running 3 legs a day vs 6. That way, you're frequencies system-wide will drop significantly. Let's also raise fairs because there will be much less capacity (seats) out in the market. Maybe then, we'll see better operations. Oh, i'm sorry, all of the above that I stated will happen anyway.

And for sankaps. Good happens within airlines every single day you just never hear about it unless it makes the media (of course).

Yesterday, DL 974 (RSW-MSP) was delayed almost 10 hours due to an a/c being layed down due to MTC in RSW. A fully laden 757 with 181 people. By what you think, Delta would have just said too bad we'll get you to MSP as best we can with the remaining flight to MSP and whatever's available through ATL and DTW. Can't make it out tonight? We'll try tomorrow. No, they pulled an a/c out the hanger, flew it down empty to RSW and got the remaining folks that were not accommodated on the other flights to MSP. Doesn't stop there. They boarded 122 meals (total pax count after some were rebooked) on the ferry flight so that these people can enjoy a first class meal on their way to MSP. The pundits will claim that they needed to get an a/c to MSP for following flights so that's the only reason. No...the one that went mech was a 757. They sent down an MD90. But good never happens and they're always out to screw their passengers.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 08:59:54 and read 5520 times.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 116):
I am not perfect, but I have little respect for people who either twist the story or fight with facts that are incorrect. US doesn't operate 20 seats but I guess a 37-seater with 7 missing isn't as dramatic as a 20 seater missing 7 people.

You're right, it isn't. It is only as dramatic as 75 pax being left behind on a 777 or 747 with 400 seats.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119):
Why wouldn't they? I've seen an agent at RDU escort a family of 4 through security to get to their gate to catch their flight to Atlanta that was scheduled to depart in 20 minutes with the TSA line being a mile long

Would love to see many more examples of this instead of "sorry, 20 minutes out the gate closes, tough luck!".

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: tp1040
Posted 2013-05-06 10:04:50 and read 5413 times.

Had weather issues while traveling TLH - TPA - RDU. US Air was very accommodating. Just prior to approach, our attendant alerted the ops that we were delayed getting into TPA on US Air Express, they were able to hold the USAir plane for 5 minutes and the other passengers never knew a thing. Even arrived on time at RDU.

Maybe it was Captain's discretion and he must have known he could make up 5 minutes.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: wn676
Posted 2013-05-06 12:10:43 and read 5227 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 120):
You're right, it isn't. It is only as dramatic as 75 pax being left behind on a 777 or 747 with 400 seats.

Right, just like 500 people not making a plane with 2700 seats is equally as dramatic. Please. 75 people is a lot worse than 7, regardless of whatever ratio that works out to be.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: wn676
Posted 2013-05-06 12:19:31 and read 5198 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119):
Okay. So airplanes don't break down. It never rains. It never snows. There's never ATC delays. There's never long take-off lines. Catering is on and off the a/c when they should 100% of the time. An a/c is NEVER overfueled. An a/c is NEVER underfueled. There's NEVER a disruptive pax that needs to be removed. Crews are NEVER late. So that I understand what you're saying. Where you work, everythin goes right 100% of the time, right? When a flight departs late, it is always the airline's fault, right. It can never be an outside factor completely out of their control, right.

Take it one step further. Earlier, you tried to say that because of the way schedules are built and a/c are routed, there's no room for hick-ups such as these thuse people miss their flights. Well, i'm sure you'd much prefer a/c running 3 legs a day vs 6. That way, you're frequencies system-wide will drop significantly. Let's also raise fairs because there will be much less capacity (seats) out in the market. Maybe then, we'll see better operations. Oh, i'm sorry, all of the above that I stated will happen anyway.

  

This isn't some sort of manufacturing process that can be controlled and manipulated to very specific degrees. Sure, those same principles are applied like they are everywhere else (because after all, it is just a complex system), but the amount of variables that go into running an airline on a daily basis is staggering, which is why certain levels of performance are tolerated where in other industries they wouldn't be.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: SouthernDC9
Posted 2013-05-06 13:10:45 and read 5057 times.

Nobody from The Office has any room to criticize anyone for not bringing a journey to a satisfying end.

Having watched The Office for 9 seasons now and being quite fanatic about the various pop culture phenomena I follow, if I had been working PHL that day and had seen the name "Rainn Wilson" on the passenger list I would have definitely known something was up and would probably have called everyone into the Conference Room to discuss it (or I would have at least convened the Party Planning Committee to concoct a sufficiently elaborate celebration). However, I am not normal. A normal person who casually watches TV (if at all) would probably not see anything particularly special about that name other than the Rainn thing. If he had booked as Dwight Schrute maybe, but otherwise no.

At any rate there's got to be a "That's what she said" joke in here somewhere but I'm not even going to try...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 13:17:04 and read 5021 times.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 122):
Right, just like 500 people not making a plane with 2700 seats is equally as dramatic. Please. 75 people is a lot worse than 7, regardless of whatever ratio that works out to be.

Quite to the contrary, the ratio is exactly what matters! How much of the pax carrying mission that the aircraft is designated for, it is being able to fulfill. Leaving behind 25% of your pax doesn't seem to be a bright idea.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-06 13:39:29 and read 4977 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 117):
How does that make it random?

When customers have no idea what the outcome will be then it is random to the people paying the bills.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 117):
? We are talking about a multi-billion dollar corporation, where profit margins are slim and in a lot of cases, none. Every move is calculated and scrutinized.

That certainly isn't reality.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 117):
but i think we can both agree that this event wasn't the first and won't be the last.

Which is why airlines should figure out how to communicate properly. The affected passengers should have been informed already before they landed in PHL.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 117):
One thing I can guarantee, if Rainn spoke to the gate agents in the same fashion he took to Twitter, I hope US tells him to please find another airline. What a terrible way to handle a situation and look like a massive Dbag at the same time..

Ever considered that the twit may be the result of how the gate agent responded?

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 118):
But the system does work pretty well most of the time

39% of flights delayed averaging more than 30 minutes delay. Just about every airline having been in bk, often multiple times. Not being able to communicate with customers and constantly referring to fine print and policies when things go wrong. Doing so poorly that politicians feel forced to vote for poor passenger protection laws just to be able to say they are doing something. We have different definitions of work pretty well.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119):
Why is it not important??

As I mentioned above. The number of people filing reports isn't a good measurement of how you're doing as you may have people who report the smallest thing and you may have people who will not report because they see no change. You need to look at the actual data to be able to draw any conclusions.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119):
Seems to me like you know how the conversation went.

I know about customer service. I have seen how things change when a company starts being transparent. When customers starts to trust what you say instead of thinking you lie even when you confirm what day of the week it is.

When a customer think they missed their flight because you took off 10 minutes early there is a problem.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119):
customers will accept about any mistake makes me thing you do not work in a customer facing job

You're wrong.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119):
And if you do, please tell me where you work because i'd love to have your customers

Started in the hotel and restaurant business. The kind of place where customers have better alternatives if things go wrong so you better be on top of the game. Then various computer related businesses including nationwide support for several brands. From there I worked for a company providing SW to help handles this and most other business processes. Now I'm mostly consulting.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119):
I still can't believe what you said.

That is very representative of the problems in aviation.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119):
Okay. So airplanes don't break down. It never rains. It never snows. There's never ATC delays. There's never long take-off lines. Catering is on and off the a/c when they should 100% of the time. An a/c is NEVER overfueled. An a/c is NEVER underfueled. There's NEVER a disruptive pax that needs to be removed. Crews are NEVER late. So that I understand what you're saying. Where you work, everythin goes right 100% of the time, right? When a flight departs late, it is always the airline's fault, right. It can never be an outside factor completely out of their control, right.

Not causing problems to customers 39% of the time. Most of the time we are targeting less than 2% being noticeable by customers and keep it well under 1%.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119):
Take it one step further. Earlier, you tried to say that because of the way schedules are built and a/c are routed, there's no room for hick-ups such as these thuse people miss their flights. Well, i'm sure you'd much prefer a/c running 3 legs a day vs 6. That way, you're frequencies system-wide will drop significantly. Let's also raise fairs because there will be much less capacity (seats) out in the market. Maybe then, we'll see better operations. Oh, i'm sorry, all of the above that I stated will happen anyway.

I'm glad you realize it will happen. It should have happened long time ago.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 119):
No, they pulled an a/c out the hanger, flew it down empty to RSW and got the remaining folks that were not accommodated on the other flights to MSP. Doesn't stop there. They boarded 122 meals (total pax count after some were rebooked) on the ferry flight so that these people can enjoy a first class meal on their way to MSP. The pundits will claim that they needed to get an a/c to MSP for following flights so that's the only reason. No...the one that went mech was a 757. They sent down an MD90. But good never happens and they're always out to screw their passengers.

Apart from your ramblings making it impossible to understand part of what you're writing - This is the right way to deal with that kind of problem.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 122):
ight, just like 500 people not making a plane with 2700 seats is equally as dramatic. Please. 75 people is a lot worse than 7, regardless of whatever ratio that works out to be.

To the airline, sure. To the affected customers it is the same thing. This is another great example of the mentality problem.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 123):
This isn't some sort of manufacturing process that can be controlled and manipulated to very specific degrees. Sure, those same principles are applied like they are everywhere else (because after all, it is just a complex system), but the amount of variables that go into running an airline on a daily basis is staggering, which is why certain levels of performance are tolerated where in other industries they wouldn't be.

Bull.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-06 13:54:19 and read 4938 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126):
You're wrong.

Well you must have the absolute best customers. I've seen the best and worst. From young ladies being yelled at to agents being spat on and called all sorts of names...because they missed their flight. But by your logic they are deserving because they did not communicate properly.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126):
To the airline, sure. To the affected customers it is the same thing. This is another great example of the mentality problem.

I'm glad you do not work for my airline. You still don't seem to get that you can never please everyone. I don't know how that's so hard to understand.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-06 15:40:55 and read 4813 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 127):
Well you must have the absolute best customers. I've seen the best and worst. From young ladies being yelled at to agents being spat on and called all sorts of names...because they missed their flight. But by your logic they are deserving because they did not communicate properly.

You still don't get it. Customers will respond to how you're deal with things. Don't tell them that the next flight is only three hours later and that is within the contracted terms, as has been mentioned multiple times above. Explain why the first flight was delayed. Explain how long the other flight would have to wait for them to get to it and why it couldn't wait that long. Explain why you didn't have a van ready to take them to the destination only one hour late instead of the three hours. Do it right and just about every customer will become a spokesman telling others how well you handle problems.

Without a doubt the airline is deserving for what they got. They should get it daily considering how regular things like this is.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 127):
'm glad you do not work for my airline.

I provide service. I obviously do not fit.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 127):
You still don't seem to get that you can never please everyone

I understand that isn't a reason to piss off every single customer with a problem.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 127):
I don't know how that's so hard to understand.

Of course you don't. That is the problem.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: crj900lr
Posted 2013-05-06 17:54:28 and read 4681 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 128):
Without a doubt the airline is deserving for what they got. They should get it daily considering how regular things like this is.

You obviously have issues with US and really have no idea how an airline runs. The agents did the correct thing, followed procedures and got the flight out. If we held for every late passenger, like apparently you would, we would never get one flight out on-time.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-06 18:12:12 and read 4648 times.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 129):
You obviously have issues with US and really have no idea how an airline runs.

You're obviously an airline apologist who don't understand the words customer service. Considering how bankruptcy court is the only place US airlines arrive to with any kind of regularity it is obvious the industry and their apologists are the ones with no idea how to run a business.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-05-06 20:26:57 and read 4502 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 128):
You still don't get it. Customers will respond to how you're deal with things.

That's not true at all and anyone that has to deal with the public knows that full well. There is always a subset that is petty, childish, self absorbed and abusive.

Quoting cmf (Reply 130):
You're obviously an airline apologist who don't understand the words customer service. Considering how bankruptcy court is the only place US airlines arrive to with any kind of regularity it is obvious the industry and their apologists are the ones with no idea how to run a business.

Seriously?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: wn676
Posted 2013-05-06 20:47:58 and read 4473 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126):
To the airline, sure. To the affected customers it is the same thing. This is another great example of the mentality problem.
Quoting sankaps (Reply 125):
Quite to the contrary, the ratio is exactly what matters! How much of the pax carrying mission that the aircraft is designated for, it is being able to fulfill. Leaving behind 25% of your pax doesn't seem to be a bright idea.

But relative to the total number of customers each day, those ratios are different. What matters is the number of people affected and should have nothing to do with the ratio. Say you miss 3 people on a 37 seat plane and 20 on a 400 seat plane. Do you say you did a better job missing the 20 just because it's a lower percentage of the total seats on the plane? Does it cause less inconvenience for your customers and have a smaller impact to your operation because of that as well? Most likely not.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-05-06 20:57:13 and read 4447 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126):
39% of flights delayed averaging more than 30 minutes delay. Just about every airline having been in bk, often multiple times. Not being able to communicate with customers and constantly referring to fine print and policies when things go wrong. Doing so poorly that politicians feel forced to vote for poor passenger protection laws just to be able to say they are doing something. We have different definitions of work pretty well.

Not quite sure where you got those number (and DOT tracks sked to 15, not 30). Latest US on time numbers:

Goal 1Q13 Highlights
On-Time
Arrivals
1Q13 system:
80.7%
DOT goal: Rank first
among the Big Four
for arrivals within 14
minutes (A14)
System*:
82.1%
DOT**:
82.4

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 21:09:03 and read 4425 times.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 132):
Say you miss 3 people on a 37 seat plane and 20 on a 400 seat plane. Do you say you did a better job missing the 20 just because it's a lower percentage of the total seats on the plane?

In terms of cost to the company for re-accom, obviously the absolute number is more important IF YOU HAD to choose between the two. In terms of underutilizing an asset or not appreciating what the mission of the asset is, the ratio is more important.

The thing is if you take the ratio into account and have a do-not-exceed number, the total number of pax needing re-accom will also decline, meaning a win-win.

Think about it. You call a taxi for 4 people, where each person pays an individual fare. The taxi driver insists on leaving early or on time with 1 person because the other three are held up a bit, saying "its only three people, not a big deal".

Wouldn't be great for his business, would it?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-05-06 21:16:31 and read 4413 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126):
When customers have no idea what the outcome will be then it is random to the people paying the bills.

You can argue that perception matters more than reality, but you can't change reality.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126):
That certainly isn't reality.

I'm a little confused. In one sentence, you say that airlines are constantly in and out of bankruptcy, and in the next you say that the profit margins aren't "slim to none"? Which is it?

Quoting cmf (Reply 126):
Which is why airlines should figure out how to communicate properly.

You know, I hear this a lot, and I always fail to see where there was a lack of communication. If you'd care to point it out, that would help in solving this argument.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126):
The affected passengers should have been informed already before they landed in PHL.

Yep, because there just a whole boatload of time from the inrange call to landing for the crew to both receive a list of possible misconnects, and for the flight attendant(s) to go through and notify each and every passenger in danger of misconnecting that they may or may not make the flight. After all, there's nothing better for them to do than to tell 200 people things they already know.

I will give you this: at least you're attacking the system and not the gate agent, who literally has zero power to make any kind of hold decision... those decisions are made by operations personnel who have way more information than most people think exists.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: wn676
Posted 2013-05-06 22:33:01 and read 4357 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 134):
The thing is if you take the ratio into account and have a do-not-exceed number, the total number of pax needing re-accom will also decline, meaning a win-win.

There are often do-not-exceed numbers, but they aren't tied to the ratio. They do accomplish the goal of reducing reaccoms.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 134):
Think about it. You call a taxi for 4 people, where each person pays an individual fare. The taxi driver insists on leaving early or on time with 1 person because the other three are held up a bit, saying "its only three people, not a big deal".

Wouldn't be great for his business, would it?

Well, that depends. If waiting for those 3 people meant that another 12 throughout the day would also not make it to their destination on time, and there is another taxi following shortly with 3 open seats, then what is the best course of action in absolute terms? Say the two taxis were a company that carried 100 people that day. Waiting for those 3 people means that up to 16% of their total passengers don't make it to their destination on time versus 3%. In that case I think it's better to eat the cost of the asset utilization for that one trip to minimize the disruption to their customers.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-06 22:41:16 and read 4344 times.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 136):
there is another taxi following shortly with 3 open seats, then what is the best course of action in absolute terms?

If there is another taxi right behind, then I fully agree with you. But if the other taxi is coming half an hour later and it takes only 15 minutes to walk to the destination, then the best course of action for the taxi company is certainly not the best course of action for the customers -- especially if another taxi from the same taxi company is responsible for them being a few minutes late in the first place.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: liftsifter
Posted 2013-05-06 23:04:21 and read 4321 times.

My AA flight this past week was delayed by 40 minutes to allow for connecting PAX. It was a 10:20am flight ORD-LAX. It certainly wasn't the last of the day.

Airlines with class, wait.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-07 06:09:55 and read 4159 times.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 131):
That's not true at all and anyone that has to deal with the public knows that full well. There is always a subset that is petty, childish, self absorbed and abusive.

Some are a lot more difficult than others but if you think they react the same if you put someone who screams back at them or someone who starts with "How can we fix your problem" you obviously have no interest it getting things fixed.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 133):
Not quite sure where you got those number (and DOT tracks sked to 15, not 30). Latest US on time numbers:
http://www.flightstats.com/go/Flight...1&airlineCode=US&flightNumber=4302

It is for that flight specifically.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 135):
You can argue that perception matters more than reality, but you can't change reality.

It is the passengers reality. Don't know why you think you can ignore it.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 135):
I'm a little confused. In one sentence, you say that airlines are constantly in and out of bankruptcy, and in the next you say that the profit margins aren't "slim to none"? Which is it?

Why do you think those statements are contradictory?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 135):
You know, I hear this a lot, and I always fail to see where there was a lack of communication. If you'd care to point it out, that would help in solving this argument.

Why is it that you will always find out about delays from other sources before from the airline? Why don't airlines (most) provide an updated itinerary before we land when I'm on a flight that is so delayed I will not be able to make my connection?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 135):
Yep, because there just a whole boatload of time from the inrange call to landing for the crew to both receive a list of possible misconnects, and for the flight attendant(s) to go through and notify each and every passenger in danger of misconnecting that they may or may not make the flight. After all, there's nothing better for them to do than to tell 200 people things they already know.

Because that is the only way to do it... Again, some airlines show in on the screens. Passengers booked on xx123 have been re-booked to xx234. With internet access fairly common you have another great method.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 135):
those decisions are made by operations personnel who have way more information than most people think exists.

The info is there. Why so tight with it? You don't need to give away secrets to make customers understand why things are happening and become sympathetic to the problems you deal with instead of hostile because you treat them like inconvenient boxes.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: rcair1
Posted 2013-05-07 07:44:28 and read 4054 times.

Okay - lots of speculation (LOTS of speculation) - 139 posts. Really?

So I thought I'd take stab at some facts.

The event occurred on May 3. BTW - the wrap up was May 4 - the next day.

US Airways operates 6 flights from PHL to AVP (Scranton). They are operated by Piedmont or Chautauqua.

The report states they missed a flight and were re-booked on a later flight that leaves 3 hours later. The only flights that fit those parameters are 4302 at 17:30 and 3078 at 20:29.

So we can assume they were booked on US Airways 4302.

4302 is a Dash 8 - it seats 9 rows of 5 - so 45 people, not 20.
According to the US it 'departs' at 1730. According to flight aware - on May 3, US airways flight 4302
- Was scheduled to depart at 17:34. It departed at 17:36, 2 minutes post plan
- Was scheduled to arrive at 18:10. It arrived at 18:07, 3 minutes early.

So -
- The plane seats 45, not 20. Strike 1 Mr. Office
- The plane left and arrived pretty much right on time, not 10 minutes early. Strike 2 Mr. Office.
- The wrapup party was Sat the 4th, not Friday the 3rd - so they did were in no danger of missing it. Implied Strike 3 Mr. Office.

So -
They arrived late. The plane had closed, probably not pushed, but if they did push it was to maintain schedule (which they did) and they could have waited for the later flight. Nobody forced them to rent a car and drive.

As for the gate agent - if they were like me, I would have no idea who this joker is - so it would be a name on a manifest.
Typical hollywood self-righteous b**b
BG

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-07 08:06:28 and read 4019 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 140):
Okay - lots of speculation (LOTS of speculation) - 139 posts. Really?

Pretty amazing it's lasted this long, eh? There are a select few in this thread who don't want to accept that airlines actually do care about the customer and that more people are flying than ever, even though situations like this happen everyday!

We need a 'beat a dead horse' emote on this site, very fitting here...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-07 08:38:31 and read 3960 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 128):

I gather that you were there and you know the agent didn't do and say exactly what you're suggesting. But your point is tha because he went on a childish tirade, he/she couldn't have because "if you communicate properly with customers" they'll understand.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: SouthernDC9
Posted 2013-05-07 08:44:18 and read 3946 times.

I assume this will be locked soon because it's become so ridiculous, but let me just say that this thread has been far more interesting than anything on The Office over the past two seasons, and for that I'm grateful to everyone...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-05-07 08:44:41 and read 3951 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 140):
So -
- The plane seats 45, not 20. Strike 1 Mr. Office

Not to nitpick an otherwise good post, rcair,but the DH8-100/200 has 37 seats. (The -300 has 50). But at PDT, the type is usually only authorized to sell to 34; this came about with new FAA pax/bag weights after the Air Midwest accident at CLT.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry to repeat myself, but misconnects happen many times a day, on every airline, at every hub. This time, it happened to a B-list celeb with a twitter feed, so it being discussed here ( also on FlyerTalk and airlineforums.com, probably on other discussion boards, as well).

I know that I am likely to get flamed here, but it can be tiresome to see armchair experts, who have never worked in the industry, pontificating about an airline should run. No carrier or employee sets out to ruin a passenger's day. But in a system as large and complex, it will happen from time to time.

Didn't David Letterman once say something like "You think it's so easy? Start your own damn airline!"




Full disclosure: I have only seen "The Office" a couple of times. Had it been the cast of say, "Homeland", I would be upset. No one does that to Claire Danes!  

[Edited 2013-05-07 08:48:10]

[Edited 2013-05-07 08:48:54]

[Edited 2013-05-07 08:50:27]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-07 09:23:44 and read 3888 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 141):
Pretty amazing it's lasted this long, eh? There are a select few in this thread who don't want to accept that airlines actually do care about the customer and that more people are flying than ever, even though situations like this happen everyday!

Pretty amazing how some people will refuse to accept that airlines aren't perfect. That a passenger missing the connection printed on her itinerary isn't a shortcoming if the airline manage to deliver them to the destination at some future time, because the policy says that is enough.

It is people like you who give aviation employees the bad reputation they have.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 142):
I gather that you were there and you know the agent didn't do and say exactly what you're suggesting. But your point is tha because he went on a childish tirade, he/she couldn't have because "if you communicate properly with customers" they'll understand.


Obviously you were there... You know the agent explained everything perfectly and he then ignored of it and posted what he knew were lies just because customers do that.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-07 09:35:43 and read 3859 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 140):
4302 is a Dash 8 - it seats 9 rows of 5 - so 45 people, not 20.
Quoting rcair1 (Reply 140):
- The plane seats 45, not 20. Strike 1 Mr. Office
Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 144):
Not to nitpick an otherwise good post, rcair,but the DH8-100/200 has 37 seats. (The -300 has 50). But at PDT, the

For someone claiming to lay out the "facts", it is pretty amazing that a basic fact -- the seating config of a Dash-8 -- is stated flat out wrong. Dash-8-100s have 4 seats per row. So 36, plus an extra seat in the last bench, giving 37. 7 of 37 is just under 20% of the capacity of the aircraft.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 140):
According to the US it 'departs' at 1730. According to flight aware - on May 3, US airways flight 4302
- Was scheduled to depart at 17:34. It departed at 17:36, 2 minutes post plan

Not according to the Flightaware links for these exact dates and flights posted earlier. That show the aircraft pushing 6 min early.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 144):
I know that I am likely to get flamed here, but it can be tiresome to see armchair experts, who have never worked in the industry, pontificating about an airline should run.

I can only speak for myself -- 15 years in the industry, in planning, operations, and customer experience, in the US, Europe, and Asia. But don't like to throw that around just to brow-beat others down. And I can tell you -- the biggest challenge most US airlines have is that they view things only from the point of view of their internal operational convenience, and not through the eyes of the customer. A very short-sighted approach.

[Edited 2013-05-07 09:52:33]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: tymnbalewne
Posted 2013-05-07 09:45:41 and read 3838 times.

Ok...time to shut this one down. It's become almost as ridiculous as the thread where someone suggested that disrupted pax on today's flights should take precedence over and bump the booked/confirmed people on tomorrow's flights, and that this should be standard airline policy.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: ckfred
Posted 2013-05-07 09:47:50 and read 3840 times.

I've been on a number of flights, or observed gate agents (while waiting for the next flight) deciding to hold flights, because of late arriving passengers due delayed flights into the hub airport.

Once, while sitting at ORD waiting for an AA flight to LGA, the agents were preparing to close up a flight for JAC. Two people came sprinting down the concourse yelling to hold the JAC flight, and that 7 more people from a late arrival from EWR were behind them. Everyone working at ORD was aware that a major snow storm had hit the Northeast, from BOS to IAD, since AA had cancelled some early departures out of ORD for various Northeastern airports.

One agent started worked that computer at the desk, while the other scanned boarding passes. Ultimately, the flight left about 10 minutes late. Meanwhile, the inbound aircraft destined for LGA was sitting at the end of the H-L alley waiting for the gate to open.

The problems with not holding a flight for potential misconnects are that the released flight is leaving with empty seats (not good), and the misconnects have to be accomodated on later flights. If weather is causing a number of flights throughout the day to arrive late at a hub, letting flights depart on time with empty seats due to misconnects just makes it harder and harder to deal with an increasing number of misconnects.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: AAIL86
Posted 2013-05-07 10:41:53 and read 3792 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 126):
39% of flights delayed averaging more than 30 minutes delay. Just about every airline having been in bk, often multiple times. Not being able to communicate with customers and constantly referring to fine print and policies when things go wrong. Doing so poorly that politicians feel forced to vote for poor passenger protection laws just to be able to say they are doing something. We have different definitions of work pretty well.

I'm curious to know what industry you work in. Airlines are not high-margin businesses. Line by line - airline employees make less then their counterparts in most other industries(there are exceptions of course). $28,000 to fly an RJ around isn't exactly getting rich. And airlines often deal with challenges that would make people in some other professions curl up in the fetal position and cry.

I'm not apologizing for the airlines here. But until you've been on both sides of the counter don't judge too harshly.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 148):
The problems with not holding a flight for potential misconnects are that the released flight is leaving with empty seats (not good), and the misconnects have to be accomodated on later flights. If weather is causing a number of flights throughout the day to arrive late at a hub, letting flights depart on time with empty seats due to misconnects just makes it harder and harder to deal with an increasing number of misconnects.

In the hub environment, waiting for those 10 people might mean the aircraft comes back with 100 misconnects. Those deals can be tricky ....

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-05-07 11:04:21 and read 3763 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 139):
It is the passengers reality.

False. It is the passenger's perception.

Quoting cmf (Reply 139):
Don't know why you think you can ignore it.

Who said anything about ignoring it?

Quoting cmf (Reply 139):
Why do you think those statements are contradictory?

... because I passed 3rd grade critical reasoning? If an airline is in bankruptcy, that means their profit margin is negative. Or, you can look at the raw numbers (the information is very available there) and you can see that airlines average a 1% profit margin.

If you think that's due to "not giving the passenger whatever information they demand", you really have no business sense.

Quoting cmf (Reply 139):
Why is it that you will always find out about delays from other sources before from the airline?

Really? Always?

I think not.

Quoting cmf (Reply 139):
Why don't airlines (most) provide an updated itinerary before we land when I'm on a flight that is so delayed I will not be able to make my connection?

I explained that one already, albeit a little sarcastically.

Quoting cmf (Reply 139):
Because that is the only way to do it... Again, some airlines show in on the screens.

Which only a few airlines have.

Quoting cmf (Reply 139):
With internet access fairly common you have another great method.

Which has only been common for less than a year, and isn't on every airplane.

Quoting cmf (Reply 139):
The info is there. Why so tight with it?

Because, quite simply, the information does the passenger no good and often leads to escalations. "The crew is delayed because of weather affecting a previous flight and will probably time out", says the airline agent. "Well, find another crew! And you're lying because my i-whatever says there's no weather!" comes the retort.

In the end, those that complain about not being given enough information even though they have all they really need, will never be satisfied. Ever.

Even in this case, they knew they were in a tight connection situation. They happened to not make it to the gate in time. They were put on the next flight. No amount of information can change what happened: they misconnected.

Quoting cmf (Reply 145):

Pretty amazing how some people will refuse to accept that airlines aren't perfect. That a passenger missing the connection printed on her itinerary isn't a shortcoming if the airline manage to deliver them to the destination at some future time, because the policy says that is enough.

It is people like you who give aviation employees the bad reputation they have.

The only one refusing to accept the airlines aren't perfect is you. Or rather, the nature of it ensures they can never be perfect.

On the contrary, it is people like you that give aviation employees a "bad reputation". You have completely unreasonable expectations for the industry, that people should never be delayed.

Quoting cmf (Reply 145):


Obviously you were there... You know the agent explained everything perfectly and he then ignored of it and posted what he knew were lies just because customers do that.

I wasn't at this particular event, but yes, I have seen it. My own mother has been guilty of it. There's something about air travel that makes people lose their cool.

Or are you suggesting you were there and the agent was a complete bitch, and he had every reason to fly off the handle?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-07 11:36:59 and read 3733 times.

Please God (or more preferably a moderator), lock this thread!

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: rcair1
Posted 2013-05-07 13:04:34 and read 3674 times.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 144):
Not to nitpick an otherwise good post, rcair,but the DH8-100/200 has 37 seats. (The -300 has 50). But at PDT, the type is usually only authorized to sell to 34; this came about with new FAA pax/bag weights after the Air Midwest accident at CLT.

I went based on the seating charts on the US Airways website. Perhap the chart is misleading. Perhaps the middle row is not really there. That would explant it.



Quoting sankaps (Reply 146):
Not according to the Flightaware links for these exact dates and flights posted earlier. That show the aircraft pushing 6 min early.

May 3 - here is what I see on Flight aware. The 15:36 time from track log is actually at 800ft after takeoff.


I'd say "get a life" - but here I am wasting my time contributing to the delinquency of non-minors   

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: rcair1
Posted 2013-05-07 13:52:18 and read 3632 times.

Quoting 802flyguy (Reply 144):
Not to nitpick an otherwise good post, rcair,but the DH8-100/200 has 37 seats. (The -300 has 50). But at PDT, the type is usually only authorized to sell to 34; this came about with new FAA pax/bag weights after the Air Midwest accident at CLT.

Thanks - polite and useful post.   

Quoting sankaps (Reply 146):
For someone claiming to lay out the "facts", it is pretty amazing that a basic fact -- the seating config of a Dash-8 -- is stated flat out wrong. Dash-8-100s have 4 seats per row. So 36, plus an extra seat in the last bench, giving 37. 7 of 37 is just under 20% of the capacity of the aircraft.

No so much.  &nbsp BTW - my "error" which has a basis in data - was 19%. His - 45%.   

I based my count on the seating charts on the US Airways for this flight on the US Airways website. Perhaps the chart is incorrect and maybe the middle seats will be always marked "X" - unavailable. I did not go look at types. Haven't flown a Dash-8 in years - decades? Here is the chart.



Quoting sankaps (Reply 146):
Not according to the Flightaware links for these exact dates and flights posted earlier. That show the aircraft pushing 6 min early.

May 3 - here is what I see on Flightaware


I''d say "Get a life" - but here I am contributing to the delinquency of non-minors....   

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-07 14:29:43 and read 3601 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 146):
the biggest challenge most US airlines have is that they view things only from the point of view of their internal operational convenience, and not through the eyes of the customer. A very short-sighted approach

  

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 150):
False. It is the passenger's perception.

No, it is the passengers reality.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 150):
... because I passed 3rd grade critical reasoning

You must have forgotten things since then.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 150):
you can see that airlines average a 1% profit margin.

As I said, low or no profit. Then something happens and there is nothing to fall back on. Anyone able to do a little bit of reasoning understands that.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 150):
I explained that one already, albeit a little sarcastically.

Excuses, excuses.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 150):
Really? Always?

I think not.

It should always be the airline. Why so afraid of addressing the issue and try to escape out on an irrelevant detail?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 150):
Which only a few airlines have.

That is what I said. The question is why other airlines hasn't implemented it when it has been around for so long. Most airlines do have screens on the planes...

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 150):
Because, quite simply, the information does the passenger no good and often leads to escalations. "The crew is delayed because of weather affecting a previous flight and will probably time out", says the airline agent. "Well, find another crew! And you're lying because my i-whatever says there's no weather!" comes the retort.

You personify the contempt airlines show passengers. The reason why passengers don't trust the information airlines provide.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 150):
In the end, those that complain about not being given enough information even though they have all they really need, will never be satisfied. Ever.

There is that contempt again, all they need. Humans are curious, they want to understand things. It doesn't matter if the information changes how they do things.

A few years ago I was at DFW waiting for a flight to MIA to start boarding. Well the that time came but no actions from the agents. After a bt a few passengers walked up and asked and as they came back people got the message that boarding would start soon. As time passed people started to ask more and more but still the message to those asking the agents was just - we will start boarding soon. A few minutes before scheduled departure time one agent finally got up and said - boarding will start soon. What a joke, too late as everyone had already got this part. More than a few people started talking about similar situations and how it had ended with the flight being delayed significantly or even cancelled. As time got close to departure time and boarding had still not started people were asking if they should try to get their tickets changed to get one of the few seats left on later flights.

A bit after the flight should have departed another agent walked in, picked up the mic and said - We are sorry about the delay. We had to replace several seat covers and it takes a bit of time and is difficult to do if we are boarding simultaneously. They should be ready in about 10 minutes and then we will start boarding.

With that no-one was talking about finding alternatives. There was a reason that was reasonable in explaining why the boarding was delayed and that everyone would get to Miami just a little bit later than scheduled.

Why they didn't provide that message before is a mystery to me.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 150):
The only one refusing to accept the airlines aren't perfect is you.

Where have I suggested that airlines are perfect or should be perfect? You need to check your reasoning again.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 150):
On the contrary, it is people like you that give aviation employees a "bad reputation". You have completely unreasonable expectations for the industry, that people should never be delayed.

Where have I suggested that people will never been delayed? When your only argument is by misrepresenting my statements you really should not talk about critical reasoning.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 150):
I wasn't at this particular event, but yes, I have seen it. My own mother has been guilty of it. There's something about air travel that makes people lose their cool.

Oh I have seen it. Both what passengers do and what airline employees do. I have also seen things in other industries.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 150):
Or are you suggesting you were there and the agent was a complete bitch, and he had every reason to fly off the handle?

Ahh, because I don't state the airline was perfect I must have been there. Where have I suggested the agent was a bitch? Where have I suggested he had every reason to fly off the handle? You really should not have brought up critical reasoning.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-05-07 15:08:35 and read 3563 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 154):
It should always be the airline. Why so afraid of addressing the issue and try to escape out on an irrelevant detail?

I am addressing the issue. You are the one making completely false and inflammatory statements. Or should I just ignore them because YOU say it's irrelevant anyways?

If a detail is irrelevant, then by the forum rules you should not be posting them.

Quoting cmf (Reply 154):
That is what I said. The question is why other airlines hasn't implemented it when it has been around for so long. Most airlines do have screens on the planes...

Video screens have been around for a long time, but internet connectivity has not.

Quoting cmf (Reply 154):

You personify the contempt airlines show passengers.

So instead of denying that is actually what happens, you use a personal attack. Cute.

Quoting cmf (Reply 154):

There is that contempt again, all they need. Humans are curious, they want to understand things. It doesn't matter if the information changes how they do things.

People want things to fit into a certain mold. When that doesn't happen, they get anywhere from agitated to irate. Sure, most people are content with the knowledge of what's going on. The ones that throw a hissy fit are the ones that can't accept the fact that things might not go 100% smoothly.

Quoting cmf (Reply 154):

Where have I suggested that airlines are perfect or should be perfect?

Right here:

Quoting cmf (Reply 145):
That a passenger missing the connection printed on her itinerary isn't a shortcoming if the airline manage to deliver them to the destination at some future time, because the policy says that is enough.

It's subtle, but the suggestion is there.

Quoting cmf (Reply 154):

Ahh, because I don't state the airline was perfect I must have been there.

Well, you rag on those who defend the airline's actions by sarcastically saying they must have been there, so why can't you handle it right back?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-07 15:19:51 and read 3550 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 145):
Obviously you were there... You know the agent explained everything perfectly and he then ignored of it and posted what he knew were lies just because customers do that.

No sir, I never said such a thing. Your own statements come off as if you were. Saying that "this is an example of lack of communication". I went on to ask exactly what that means and I asked for a reason. You said because if you explain the situation and show empathy "most to all customers will go along withthe situation".

Becasue he went on a tirade you automatically took the approach that "this is what's wrong with the airline business". Like you were there and you know that she didn't explain exactly what happened.

1.

Quoting cmf (Reply 92):
I'm not saying that they should have held the flight for them. I am saying two things 1) They airline f$#% up communication to the affected passengers.

2.

Quoting cmf (Reply 48):
I know the airline failed miserably at explaining the situation to the affected passengers, or had no ground to stand on.

3.

Quoting cmf (Reply 109):
With proper communication customers will accept just about any mistake you make. You certainly will not have them complain about them missing a flight because you sent it out early. Instead you will have them state they missed their connection because of late arrival and will soon continue to destination.
It is not uncommon that a customer experience a failure of some kind become the most vocal ambassadors because of how you deal with them in that situation. Customers for whom everything goes right tend to just expect it.

Again, were you there and how do you know all of this was not explained and with respect and empathy. Oh, because he went off so things must not have been communicated "properly.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-07 15:54:40 and read 3507 times.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 155):
If a detail is irrelevant, then by the forum rules you should not be posting them.

Your critical reasoning is failing you again. I stated your objection was irrelevant. Not that my point was irrelevant.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 155):
Video screens have been around for a long time, but internet connectivity has not.

Exactly what I stated.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 155):
So instead of denying that is actually what happens, you use a personal attack. Cute.

What have I denied is happening? I have made a proposal how to address it. You keep making false statements of what I say.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 155):
People want things to fit into a certain mold. When that doesn't happen, they get anywhere from agitated to irate. Sure, most people are content with the knowledge of what's going on. The ones that throw a hissy fit are the ones that can't accept the fact that things might not go 100% smoothly.

What is wrong with handling most people? What is wrong in reducing the number of people who have hissy fits? What is wrong with making the hizzy fits smaller?
Why so afraid of using communication, something that has proven itself to have very positive effects over and over.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 155):
It's subtle, but the suggestion is there.

You could not be more wrong. There is no suggestion whatsoever of that. As so many other times in this thread you misrepresent what I have stated. You really should not have brought up reading comprehension.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 155):
Well, you rag on those who defend the airline's actions by sarcastically saying they must have been there, so why can't you handle it right back?

Every time I have used it has been in response to someone saying it to me.... did you miss that?

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 156):
No sir, I never said such a thing. Your own statements come off as if you were. Saying that "this is an example of lack of communication".

In your mind. Simply put, after he stated the flight took off 10 minutes early and other state it didn't, that it is a misunderstanding of processes, how is that anything other than a failure in communication about what happened?

You keep insisting you need to be there but you're wrong. Anyone who deal with customers know that there are things you can say to calm down situations and there ate things that make them "crazy".

The suggestion that a customer will post bad reviews despite everything being fine is ridiculous. There is always something going wrong from that persons view. When you do things right then that means you need to communicate. It isn't magic. It really is that simple.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-07 16:14:26 and read 3491 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 157):
In your mind. Simply put, after he stated the flight took off 10 minutes early and other state it didn't, that it is a misunderstanding of processes, how is that anything other than a failure in communication about what happened?

Flight 4302 left 4 minutes early. Rainn was incorrect and it has already been established that even if the Scranton flight left on time, the Office cast still wouldn't have made the flight. There is no misunderstanding or lack of communication as far as I'm concerned.

Quoting cmf (Reply 92):
No, they failed to deliver what they sold. They then intended to deliver the option that they considered best for them.

If they held the flight, I guess US would have failed to deliver what they had sold the passengers who were boarded and ready to go: not leaving at the time scheduled.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-07 16:57:52 and read 3434 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 158):
Flight 4302 left 4 minutes early. Rainn was incorrect and it has already been established that even if the Scranton flight left on time, the Office cast still wouldn't have made the flight. There is no misunderstanding or lack of communication as far as I'm concerned.

Then explain why he thought it left 10 minutes early.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 158):
If they held the flight, I guess US would have failed to deliver what they had sold the passengers who were boarded and ready to go: not leaving at the time scheduled.

Yes, though delaying the departure time isn't the important metric. It is arriving on time that matters.

Since someone will be shortchanged communication become important. What went wrong, accept responsibility for what the airlines part and suggest how to deal with the situation. Provide alternatives if appropriate.

It isn't rocket science.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: 802flyguy
Posted 2013-05-07 17:18:58 and read 3412 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 151):
Please God (or more preferably a moderator), lock this thread!

Quoting sankaps (Reply 146):
I can only speak for myself -- 15 years in the industry, in planning, operations, and customer experience, in the US, Europe, and Asia. But don't like to throw that around just to brow-beat others down. And I can tell you -- the biggest challenge most US airlines have is that they view things only from the point of view of their internal operational convenience, and not through the eyes of the customer. A very short-sighted approach.

I am sorry that I inferred that you were an armchair expert (it seems that there are many).
You are right that many in mid and upper management (US and elsewhere) look at numbers (especially on time stats) as an end, not a means.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 151):

Please God (or more preferably a moderator), lock this thread!

Agreed. The time has come for it to "go live on live on a nice farm upstate". Then we call all get back to discussing merger partners for AS and if Boeing will resume 757 production. For those are the true purpose of the anet forums. Just as looking pictures of kittens and youtube videos of the "Unipiper" are the true purpose of the internet.

[Edited 2013-05-07 17:35:09]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-07 17:25:53 and read 3400 times.

Quoting cmf (Reply 159):
Then explain why he thought it left 10 minutes early.

I have no idea. Maybe the gate agent told Rainn that they close the door ten minutes before departure time and he took that as leaving early? Your guess is as good as mine.

Quoting cmf (Reply 159):
Yes, though delaying the departure time isn't the important metric. It is arriving on time that matters.

No question, but delaying your departure greatly increases the possibility of delaying the aircraft's arrival. US chose to avoid this by sending off 4302 and booking the cast on the next available flight. Pretty reasonable and common scenario...

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-07 17:35:00 and read 3375 times.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 152):
May 3 - here is what I see on Flight aware. The 15:36 time from track log is actually at 800ft after takeoff.

So you acknowledge now that in order for the aircraft to be at 800 ft at 15:36, it must have pushed early as shown in the more accurate Flightaware data posted earlier?

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 152):
I went based on the seating charts on the US Airways website. Perhap the chart is misleading. Perhaps the middle row is not really there. That would explant it.

It is a incorrect (as in misleading) chart. For someone who confidently asserts the aircraft capacity, one would expect a little more cross-checking of facts, especially since the capacity has been discussed several times earlier in the thread.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 153):
No so much. &nbsp BTW - my "error" which has a basis in data - was 19%. His - 45%.

US only sells 34 seats on this aircraft, though capacity is 37. 7 seats is 20.5%. As discussed ad nauseum earlier in the thread, 20% is a big number. It crosses the threshold of what can be dismissed as insignificant. Clearly Rainn Wilson was making a point that they were a large group in a small aircraft when he said 20 seats, after all if an airline guru like you can get the capacity wrong, so can a "c-grade Hollywood type" like him underestimate the size of a commuter prop.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 153):
I''d say "Get a life" - but here I am contributing to the delinquency of non-minors....

Despite getting the two facts you asserted wrong (aircraft capacity and push-back time), you tell others to get a life???  



[Edited 2013-05-07 18:11:20]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-07 17:58:40 and read 3350 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 161):
I have no idea. Maybe the gate agent told Rainn that they close the door ten minutes before departure time and he took that as leaving early? Your guess is as good as mine.

Why would the gate agent say that? people have claimed it was impossible for them to make it over there before it pushed out.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 161):
No question, but delaying your departure greatly increases the possibility of delaying the aircraft's arrival. US chose to avoid this by sending off 4302 and booking the cast on the next available flight. Pretty reasonable and common scenario...

You seem to think I have objected to them pushing out on time.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: SEA
Posted 2013-05-07 18:35:18 and read 3302 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 161):
No question, but delaying your departure greatly increases the possibility of delaying the aircraft's arrival. US chose to avoid this by sending off 4302 and booking the cast on the next available flight. Pretty reasonable and common scenario...

US must have been pretty confident that the next flight was going to be fairly empty... 7 passengers is a good increase on a regional flight.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-07 18:42:50 and read 3284 times.

Of course they did. They have accurate seat maps of flights many days/weeks out. It may have been a much different scenario had there not been two flights with available seats after 4302...

[Edited 2013-05-07 18:54:24]

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-07 19:17:37 and read 3250 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 165):

One flight, not two, after 4302.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-07 19:38:19 and read 3228 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 165):
Of course they did. They have accurate seat maps of flights many days/weeks out. It may have been a much different scenario had there not been two flights with available seats after 4302...

Why is that much different? Because the airline would be required to provide accommodation and thus incur additional costs? Apart from that there is no difference in the contract in regards to if the rescheduled flight is the same or a different day.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: gatorman96
Posted 2013-05-08 05:50:46 and read 3084 times.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 166):
One flight, not two, after 4302.

Regardless, US still knew they had enough availability to get them on the last flight to Scranton.

Quoting cmf (Reply 167):
Why is that much different? Because the airline would be required to provide accommodation and thus incur additional costs? Apart from that there is no difference in the contract in regards to if the rescheduled flight is the same or a different day.

That's one reason, which I see no problem with. The other, getting the passengers to their destination the same day, albeit three hours later than scheduled. Again, what's the big deal? You and sankaps clearly have some sort of beef with airlines. Why don't you two start your own thread in polls and prefs and complain back and forth to each other?

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: sankaps
Posted 2013-05-08 06:22:44 and read 3056 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 168):
You and sankaps clearly have some sort of beef with airlines.

On the contrary, having been involved the industry for 15 years and having had the privilege of working with airlines in Asia and Europe in addition to the US, as well as having been a top level elite member of airlines in all three continents, I guess I just have certain expectation of customer handling, especially disruption handling, that includes "don't mock and blame a fare paying customer who may be upset because the airline screwed up".

Cheers.

Topic: RE: The Office Cast Left Behind By US Airways
Username: cmf
Posted 2013-05-08 07:29:04 and read 3002 times.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 168):
The other, getting the passengers to their destination the same da

Why the inconsistency? The contract doesn't say the same day. Why don't the passengers on the last return flight matter but passengers on earlier flight do?

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 168):
You and sankaps clearly have some sort of beef with airlines.

Because I think airlines should communicate better? Because I don't blindly take the airlines side every time?

It can't be because US took off as scheduled since I supported that decision. Not that some of you try to insist I think that was wrong. Why all the misrepresentation?


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