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Topic: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: atrude777
Posted 2013-05-08 12:30:51 and read 11775 times.

Article--American Airlines is changing flight numbers as one of the steps in its proposed merger with US Airways.

The change will be rolled out beginning June 12 with American Eagle and ExpressJet flight numbers.


Source :

http://www.businesstravelerusa.com/n...ges-flight-numbers-due-to-us-airwa

Normally I consider Business Traveler a good source of information, but with it not having been officially approved in other areas, I find this a bit odd for them to be doing this right? Is this otherwise expected/normal for them to already be changing flight numbers this early on?

The reason I also question the source is this line from the article--
It has yet-to-be determined whether the new airline would be branded as US Airways or American Airlines. Meh? Isn't it already confirmed it's American?! Hahaha

Anyone know anything about this?

Alex

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: etops1
Posted 2013-05-08 12:43:58 and read 11687 times.

I don't know about this article .. We would not be doing this just yet. The merger has to be approved by the DOJ and has to close before any moves such as this can be made . Merger closing date is scheduled for Aug 31 . Expect the rebranding of US to AA to go full speed ahead in Sept .

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: Wingtips56
Posted 2013-05-08 14:04:29 and read 11333 times.

The article is correct, as AA has announced it internally.

There won't be enough unique flight numbers to go around when AA and US combine, with Phase 1 being code-shares beginning after close of escrow, Phase 2 after integration being marketed only as AA but operated under the US certificate and finally as a single operator. It's unlikely the merger won't go forward, so this is work they can and need to do ahead of time. It's happened before with the absorption of AirCal, Reno Air and TWA, adjusting flight number ranges to expand mainline flights, with Eagle/Connection and code-share flights being moved to new ranges. AA separately identifies mainline, Eagle, funnel flights, other-airline code-shares and charter/maintenance/ferry flights by flight number ranges, such as 1-2999, 3000-x000, etc. This time, eventual single-carrier mainline flight number ranges will push into the current Eagle ranges, so the Eagle flights need to be consolidated when possible as there aren't big blocks of flight number ranges left to accommodate the expanded flight schedules. They'll squeeze existing ranges such as they are doing with assigning the same flight number to both directions of a round-trip. It will probably also increase the number of through-flight numbers and change-of-gauge flights, reducing the number of point-to-point flight numbers.

In doing this in advance, they can begin selling the new US code-share flights after escrow, and that is the necessary preparation for the eventual migration of US reservations into AA/Sabre. Separate pre-merge AA and US records will be maintained until the migration to the single AA operating certificate. Until then, an interim PHL-CLT flight may have an AA flight number, but will have to be disclosed as "Operated by US Airways".

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: atrude777
Posted 2013-05-08 14:16:49 and read 11211 times.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 1):
I don't know about this article .. We would not be doing this just yet. The merger has to be approved by the DOJ and has to close before any moves such as this can be made . Merger closing date is scheduled for Aug 31 . Expect the rebranding of US to AA to go full speed ahead in Sept .

That's what I thought, the airlines supposedly are not allowed to communicate with each other in terms of arranging flights or flight numbers, but for code share purposes I suppose it would entirely make sense.

What threw me off was the article stating it didn't know the surviving airline's name when we all know it already!

Then wingtips56 graciously chimed in and says this is actually happening.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 2):
The article is correct, as AA has announced it internally.

Fascinating, thanks for the explanation! It all makes sense of course. Is Escrow for airline terms when DOJ confirm/approves the merger?

I thought the article to be true until I read the line how it didn't know which is surviving name. Odd for a good source to otherwise not know that?

Alex

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: realsim
Posted 2013-05-08 14:31:07 and read 11080 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 2):
There won't be enough unique flight numbers to go around when AA and US combine, with Phase 1 being code-shares beginning after close of escrow, Phase 2 after integration being marketed only as AA but operated under the US certificate and finally as a single operator. It's unlikely the merger won't go forward, so this is work they can and need to do ahead of time. It's happened before with the absorption of AirCal, Reno Air and TWA, adjusting flight number ranges to expand mainline flights, with Eagle/Connection and code-share flights being moved to new ranges. AA separately identifies mainline, Eagle, funnel flights, other-airline code-shares and charter/maintenance/ferry flights by flight number ranges, such as 1-2999, 3000-x000, etc. This time, eventual single-carrier mainline flight number ranges will push into the current Eagle ranges, so the Eagle flights need to be consolidated when possible as there aren't big blocks of flight number ranges left to accommodate the expanded flight schedules. They'll squeeze existing ranges such as they are doing with assigning the same flight number to both directions of a round-trip. It will probably also increase the number of through-flight numbers and change-of-gauge flights, reducing the number of point-to-point flight numbers.

I don't get why there aren't enought flight numbers. The new AA will operate 6.700 daily flights, and there are 9.999 possible flight numbers, so there are more than 3.000 flights numbers left to accomodate charters, codeshares and maintenance flights. If you take into account that a lot of 1 stop flights have the same number, there is even a wider margin. I do understand, however, that all the Eagle and Connection flights numbers have to be changed to leave available numbers for the new mainline flights operated by US first, then by AA.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: robsaw
Posted 2013-05-08 14:38:46 and read 11002 times.

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 3):

That's what I thought, the airlines supposedly are not allowed to communicate with each other in terms of arranging flights or flight numbers, but for code share purposes I suppose it would entirely make sense

I'd think that sort of "communication" would have to do with COORDINATION of flights and flight numbers that would relate to any business advantage. The mere list of flight numbers to avoid duplication wouldn't even need to involve "communication" just download a timetable.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: cornishsimon
Posted 2013-05-08 15:17:39 and read 10815 times.

Quoting realsim (Reply 4):

Not quite as simple as that

AA also operate a vast amount of codeshare flights, AA flights number on BA metal / other OW airlines. Take BA alone, that must add many hundreds of flight numbers to the system considering most domestic and shorthaul euro flights ex LHR have the AA flight number attached.


cs

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-05-08 15:26:31 and read 10768 times.

As long as the don't touch the historic AA flight numbers that, in some cases, have been in existence longer than USAirways (or America West), I'm happy. AA1 should remain JFK-LAX, AA100 should be JFK-LHR, AA50 DFW-LHR, EZE-MIA AA900, etc. To me, it would just seem so unbecoming of the nation's largest airline, and a truly global carrier, to have some of those low, "prestigious" flight numbers "wasted" on ORD-PHX, etc.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: United727
Posted 2013-05-08 15:56:00 and read 10626 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
As long as the don't touch the historic AA flight numbers

Don't forget "191"!      

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: atrude777
Posted 2013-05-08 16:00:11 and read 10593 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
As long as the don't touch the historic AA flight numbers that, in some cases, have been in existence longer than USAirways (or America West), I'm happy. AA1 should remain JFK-LAX, AA100 should be JFK-LHR, AA50 DFW-LHR, EZE-MIA AA900, etc. To me, it would just seem so unbecoming of the nation's largest airline, and a truly global carrier, to have some of those low, "prestigious" flight numbers "wasted" on ORD-PHX, etc.

I agree, it is quite historic, but as we saw at United, they didn't care and changed it around a bit too. Doug has been good about History and remembering it (look at the retro liveries he started). Hopefully he will be able to keep some of those numbers intact on the well known routes.

Quoting robsaw (Reply 5):

I'd think that sort of "communication" would have to do with COORDINATION of flights and flight numbers that would relate to any business advantage. The mere list of flight numbers to avoid duplication wouldn't even need to involve "communication" just download a timetable.

Yes, I was thinking coordination thanks!

Quoting United727 (Reply 8):
Don't forget "191"!

That is true..US Airways light 191 is PHL-PHX-SAN, I would expect that Flight Number to drop when the merger is complete or the Flight Numbers are coordinated. No one wants to see AA Flight 191 again, even if it's operating under US Airways at the moment.

Alex

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: Wingtips56
Posted 2013-05-08 17:18:03 and read 9877 times.

Having worked with systems that key off the AA flight number ranges, I can say that they don't just use open flight numbers. I don't know the exact ranges in use at present, but if only for the sake of demonstration:

AA Mainline - 1-2999
Eagle - 3000-4500
Connection - 4501-5000
Code-share - 5001-8000
Charter - 9001-9400
Ferry/Maint - 9401-9999

Automation uses the ranges to determine if tickets can be issued, bags can be checked through, pets can be checked through, unaccompanied minors can be checked-in through, Priority Parcel and Cargo applications, Transportation (bump) vouchers issued as AA or Eagle (separate tills), ticket refunds, on-lne vs. interline pricing, mishandled baggage reporting, DOT on-time performance, and so on.

We had to change the logic in the voucher coding a couple of different times in my tenure when former Eagle flight numbers ranges were reassigned as mainline flights, and Eagle upper-end ranges pushed back, and code-share lower and upper ends pushed back.

So they may not actually use up all of the range for charters, but it does mean those ranges couldn't be used for scheduled flights.

So when the US flights come in first as code-shares and later as AA Operated by US, those will probably require some changes to the code-share ranges. When they ultimately come in as AA Certificated Mainline flights, that will push the current upper end (for demonstration, 2999) into the 3000's. Eagle flights would have to crunch down into fewer available flight numbers, hence the need to double up segments with one shared flight number.

AA-US code-sharing could happen at any time, while painting aircraft and applying AA numbers to the US-certificate operating flights could not begin until after final approval and the corporate holding company merge is done. Then the integration begins, slowly.

Does that help?

And yes, flight numbers of flights that experienced an unfortunate event are permanently retired.

[Edited 2013-05-08 17:20:04]

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: United727
Posted 2013-05-08 18:37:40 and read 9053 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 10):
And yes, flight numbers of flights that experienced an unfortunate event are permanently retired.

Unfortunate, eh?!?! to put it...mildly...191 was a bit more than...unfortunate!

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: Acey559
Posted 2013-05-08 18:40:07 and read 9003 times.

We were told our Eagle flights will be having a much higher number of out and back flight numbers than we have now.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: N908AW
Posted 2013-05-08 18:46:03 and read 8918 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 10):
o when the US flights come in first as code-shares and later as AA Operated by US, those will probably require some changes to the code-share ranges. When they ultimately come in as AA Certificated Mainline flights, that will push the current upper end (for demonstration, 2999) into the 3000's. Eagle flights would have to crunch down into fewer available flight numbers, hence the need to double up segments with one shared flight number.

Good insight. It's one of those thing only we nerds worry about, but it will be interesting to see where Eagle's flight number range ends up. Certainly will not be the vast 30xx-45xx range we see now. As the combined airline's reliance on Eagle decreases, of course, this may all be moot.

As far as other airlines go, it's interesting to note where UA is right now. Shuttle America, Chautauqua and ExpressJet all technically have flying for both sUA and sCO (deployed in both ex-CO hubs and ex-UA hubs) and each side has separate flight number ranges -- which gets even more confusing when Shuttle routes some flights EWR-MSP-DEN or similar. For instance, Shuttle's UA flights are all in the 34xx-35xx range and the CO flights are around 51xx. And ExpressJet is, well, everywhere.

Since AA/US share only Republic and Skywest (Chautauqua drops from the US schedule in July) the confusion won't be quite as severe, but nonetheless it won't be very simple at all as it is right now for American. For instance, Republic's AA flights will be in the 47xx and 48xx range and the US flights will likely stay in the 31xx-34xx range for a while. Of course, this is all contingent on how many of the regional affiliates play through to the "final" combination.
Also of note, Chautauqua's entire American operation (which, mind you, is only 14 aircraft) is confined to the 5001-5099 range.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: superdash
Posted 2013-05-08 19:42:52 and read 8448 times.

If I'm not wrong, US Airways does not have a flight below 400 in their August schedule. ORD-PHX was loaded with low number flight numbers...in August, nothing below 400.

Smart move. It will make cutover to CRS and codeshare easier.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: skycub
Posted 2013-05-08 20:04:49 and read 8276 times.

Quoting United727 (Reply 11):

Unfortunate, eh?!?! to put it...mildly...191 was a bit more than...unfortunate!

While I understand what you are saying... I am sure that in modern-times, the traveling public would be much more apprehensive and uncomfortable about traveling aboard an American Airlines flight number 11 or 77. I doubt many people, other than aviation geeks, would give a second thought about traveling aboard a flight 191.... on any airline.

[Edited 2013-05-08 20:05:48]

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: nutsaboutplanes
Posted 2013-05-08 20:10:54 and read 8233 times.

Quoting skycub (Reply 15):
While I understand what you are saying... I am sure that in modern-times, the traveling public would be much more apprehensive and uncomfortable about traveling aboard an American Airlines flight number 11 or 77. I doubt many people, other than aviation geeks, would give a second thought about traveling aboard a flight 191.... on any airline.

Its important to the people who work here too..............this is an important constituency to consider when making such decisions during a merger which is already an emotional mine field that must be navigated.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: cosyr
Posted 2013-05-08 22:40:33 and read 7481 times.

Quoting skycub (Reply 15):
I doubt many people, other than aviation geeks, would give a second thought about traveling aboard a flight 191.... on any airline.

Especially, because i feel like the media did not focus so much on the flight # in the past, when reporting crashes. TWA Flight 800 seems to be the turning point where every accident after was exclusively referred to by its flight number rather than "Tenerife." "Sioux City," "Lockerby," etc.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-05-08 23:17:29 and read 7325 times.

Let me point out one thing here- US bought out AA. AA maybe the surviving brand but just as with HP and US, the US system will hood up internally.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-05-08 23:18:49 and read 7317 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):

Can I just add

AA don't pull a United and bring out AA77 and AA11.         

(Was it just UA93 United put on a CO codeshare or did UA175 also get used?)

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: boberito6589
Posted 2013-05-08 23:25:24 and read 7279 times.

US Flight numbers are also changing:
Many of these changes are happening between now and 04SEP13 but as of now after 04SEP here is how it should be on the US side, any of the number ranges left out are considered to be "Spare":

400 - 699 - US Mainline (West)
700 - 899 - US Mainline (East)
1400 - 2139 - US Mainline (East)
2140 - 2199 - US Shuttle
2600 - 2899 - USX Mesa
2900 - 2999 - USX SkyWest
3100 - 3499 - USX Republic
3500 - 3549 - USX Trans States
3550 - 4099 - USX Air Wisconsin
4100 - 4499 - USX Piedmont
4500 - 4799 - USX PSA

4800 - 8799 Remain as Codeshare Partners

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-05-09 00:22:17 and read 7066 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):

Hmm. How do you know what systems will and won't be used?

I don't think they have even announced the leadership team or even what AOC they will be using.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: us330
Posted 2013-05-09 05:48:58 and read 5896 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
AA1 should remain JFK-LAX, AA100 should be JFK-LHR, AA50 DFW-LHR, EZE-MIA AA900, etc. To me, it would just seem so unbecoming of the nation's largest airline, and a truly global carrier, to have some of those low, "prestigious" flight numbers "wasted" on ORD-PHX, etc.

Also might be better if certain "quirky" flight numbers are preserved as well--for example, AA1600 goes from DFW-DCA, whereas the current US1600 is a PHL-DTW flight.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: ckfred
Posted 2013-05-09 06:30:33 and read 5666 times.

For a number of years, AA46 and 86 have been afternoon/evening departures out of ORD for LHR, while AA90 has been the morning ORD departure for LHR. Flight numbers in the 300s have often been flights between ORD and LGA, while flight numbers in the 2100s have been ORD-DFW flights.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: n737aa
Posted 2013-05-09 07:37:09 and read 5307 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 2):
The article is correct, as AA has announced it internally.

Yes announced internally on May 5.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 21):
I don't think they have even announced the leadership team or even what AOC they will be using.

During the initial town hall with Horton and Parker, Parker said that the current system used by US is at near capacity and since Jetstream is well into the development phase they would not make the same mistake they made during the HP/US merger and just use the systems they are familiar with. When asked to clarify he said that AA systems have capacity US systems don't. Very direct and to the point.

N737AA

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: United727
Posted 2013-05-09 08:17:01 and read 5202 times.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 17):
TWA Flight 800 seems to be the turning point where every accident after was exclusively referred to by its flight number rather than "Tenerife." "Sioux City," "Lockerby," etc.

AA191 is what, "CHICAGO"??

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
The US system will hood up internally.

That is factually incorrect. There are MANY aspects of the AA which will remain, like Sabre for one. US isn't abandoning their entire show.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 19):
AA don't pull a United and bring out AA77 and AA11.

As has been said and shown, with consolidation of the airlines, some of the "fateful" numbers are going to be returned to duty, with only those who pay attention to things, like us, noticing!

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: AAR90
Posted 2013-05-09 09:14:58 and read 4903 times.

Quoting realsim (Reply 4):
I don't get why there aren't enought flight numbers. The new AA will operate 6.700 daily flights, and there are 9.999 possible flight numbers, so there are more than 3.000 flights numbers left to accomodate charters, codeshares and maintenance flights. If you take into account that a lot of 1 stop flights have the same number, there is even a wider margin.

AA's explanation to employees (emphasis added)....

The new combined carrier will need to consolidate more than 7,000 flight segments to approximately 5,000 flight numbers, because of limitations to how many flight numbers a single carrier can operate in its reservation systems.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-05-09 09:17:56 and read 4891 times.

Quoting United727 (Reply 25):
That is factually incorrect. There are MANY aspects of the AA which will remain, like Sabre for one. US isn't abandoning their entire show.

Not to mention that there are many US-East employees that used Sabre and are probably still familiar with it. Before the America West merger, switch to HP Shares, and simultaneous IT boondoggle, US-East used Sabre for many years. (And for s while, Sabre powered an AA/US codeshare that was around from the late 90s until US became a Star Alliance member.)

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: N908AW
Posted 2013-05-09 09:48:10 and read 4656 times.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 26):
AA's explanation to employees (emphasis added)....

The new combined carrier will need to consolidate more than 7,000 flight segments to approximately 5,000 flight numbers, because of limitations to how many flight numbers a single carrier can operate in its reservation systems.

Without even mentioning things like maintenance and repositioning ferry flight number ranges (for mainline and each regional), charters (again, mainline and for each regional), and extra sections (ditto). And flight numbers are usually different on weekdays and weekends. And on and on and on...

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: OB1504
Posted 2013-05-09 09:50:59 and read 4650 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
As long as the don't touch the historic AA flight numbers that, in some cases, have been in existence longer than USAirways (or America West), I'm happy. AA1 should remain JFK-LAX, AA100 should be JFK-LHR, AA50 DFW-LHR, EZE-MIA AA900, etc. To me, it would just seem so unbecoming of the nation's largest airline, and a truly global carrier, to have some of those low, "prestigious" flight numbers "wasted" on ORD-PHX, etc.

This was my first concern when I read the internal announcement. The 900-series flight numbers have been used for Latin American flights long before AA bought the routes from Eastern.

Quoting atrude777 (Reply 9):
That is true..US Airways light 191 is PHL-PHX-SAN, I would expect that Flight Number to drop when the merger is complete or the Flight Numbers are coordinated. No one wants to see AA Flight 191 again, even if it's operating under US Airways at the moment.

US 587 and AA 427 will probably have to go, too, among others.

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: United727
Posted 2013-05-09 11:18:39 and read 4140 times.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 29):
US 587 and AA 427 will probably have to go, too, among others.

It's going to be nearly impossible to cut out each and every number related to incidents and accidents, hints and allegations!!!

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: BOACCunard
Posted 2013-05-09 14:13:09 and read 3715 times.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 10):
And yes, flight numbers of flights that experienced an unfortunate event are permanently retired.
Not always...

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-05-09 15:59:29 and read 3567 times.

Quoting United727 (Reply 25):

Guess you missed all the negative PR when UA actived UA93 and UA175


I am willing to bet anything you want to the media will eat Anerican and United alive if they bring back 9/11 flight numbers
And I can promise that the loved ones of all those people will notice and care.


Honestly, terrible post all around. Wow

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: United727
Posted 2013-05-09 16:06:29 and read 3557 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 32):
I am willing to bet anything you want to the media will eat Anerican and United alive if they bring back 9/11 flight numbers
And I can promise that the loved ones of all those people will notice and care.

NEVER did I once personally mention the 9-11 flight numbers personally (part of copy/paste from other posts)! I do not see a problem with the older numbers. As has been said, no one outside of the aviation forums will care and my only exceptions are the 9-11 flights. (ie: 103, 191, 232, 800, 1141...etc, etc)

Topic: RE: AA Changes Flight Numbers Due To US Merger
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-05-09 23:44:16 and read 3233 times.

Quoting n737aa (Reply 24):

During the initial town hall with Horton and Parker, Parker said that the current system used by US is at near capacity and since Jetstream is well into the development phase they would not make the same mistake they made during the HP/US merger and just use the systems they are familiar with. When asked to clarify he said that AA systems have capacity US systems don't. Very direct and to the point.

assuming Jetstream is the new Res system for AA?
But I pretty much agree. I'm guessing AA will do much like UA and DL has done, which is go with what is the better system(er, Delta taking DeltaMatic over PARS doesn't count....Still waiting for a new reservation system from the widget as well) or in some cases find an all new system.

US could be buying AA but that doesn't mean they will be using every US system by default. With AA being a much larger airline, Its more likely things will be more AA.


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