Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5760243/

Topic: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-05-10 09:17:34 and read 10773 times.

Quote:
The Federal Aviation Administration says unsafe wiring conditions on some Boeing 777 jetliners need to be fixed to prevent the possibility of a crash from an in-flight entertainment system fire.

The proposed order requires installing wires and changing electricity load-management-systems panels to ensure pilots are able to use a switch in the cockpit to turn off power to the entertainment systems if a fire breaks out.

Without such capability, the FAA says, pilots might not be able "to control smoke or flames in the airplane flight deck or passenger cabin" and could lose control of the plane.

The order will apply to 777-200s (I am assuming 777-200s, 777-200ERs and 777-200LRs) and 777-300ERs operated by UA, DL and AA.

The AD will be published on Friday and the airlines will have 45 days to make the changes.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel...13/05/09/boeing-777-fires/2147173/

[Edited 2013-05-10 09:48:22]

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-05-10 09:26:15 and read 10724 times.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is political pandering against Boeing from the Obama administration   

Of course safety is first. No doubt about it but I've flown on the 77L. A few times. No one on board ever thinks there's anything obviously wrong with it. DL keeps it in great shape obviously. I hope this doesn't draw negative media attention to Boeing.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-05-10 09:35:10 and read 10653 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
I'm beginning to wonder if this is political pandering against Boeing from the Obama administration



Why, they moved the corporate HQ to Chicago?

I believe everyone is looking at electrical issues much more close after the B788 battery issues.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-05-10 09:39:48 and read 10624 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
I'm beginning to wonder if this is political pandering against Boeing from the Obama administration

Of course safety is first. No doubt about it but I've flown on the 77L. A few times. No one on board ever thinks there's anything obviously wrong with it. DL keeps it in great shape obviously. I hope this doesn't draw negative media attention to Boeing.

I’m not sure how familiar you are with the Airworthiness Directive process, but it has nothing to do with political pandering and the Obama administration.

Usually Airworthiness Directives are generated from in service problems that the airlines report to the manufacturer and FAA. It is up to the manufacturer to determine what the root cause of the problem and make a determination if it is a safety problem or not. For safety related problems, it goes through an engineering investigation which solves the problems. Next a Service Bulletin is typically issued to correct the problem and the FAA will issue an Airworthiness Directive that mandates airlines follow the manufacturer’s Service Bulletin within a certain time frame. Airworthiness Directives don’t force anything on Boeing. They force an airline to comply to a design modification that was not a requirement of the original type certificate.

The only politics I see is USA Today trying to slam the FAA and relate this to Swissair 111.

I have no inside knowledge of this problem, but the normal path would be that a problem happens in service such as an IFE electrical fire. It is discovered that the design resulted in a safety problem, so Boeing fixes the design problem, and the FAA mandates that the airlines incorporate the fix. This has little to do with how well airlines maintain their airplanes. It’s the normal process for improving airplane designs that have already been certified based on in service experience. Airplanes like the 777 get dozens of airworthiness directives issued every year. And yes, the same happens to Airbus, and any other manufacturer that holds a type certificate issued by the FAA.

[Edited 2013-05-10 09:43:45]

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: EASTERN747
Posted 2013-05-10 09:53:16 and read 10541 times.

I wonder if one of the airlines found something wrong and alerted the FAA to let the other airlines know. I mean, competition or not, safety is important for everyone. Would this type of problem come up in a normal maintenance check, or FAA inspection, if they still do that? And that raises the question, do airlines alert other carriers when a problem is found, when they fly the same aircraft?

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: kl838
Posted 2013-05-10 09:56:00 and read 10528 times.

Quoting Stitch (Thread starter):

Quote:
The Federal Aviation Administration says unsafe wiring conditions on some Boeing 777 jetliners need to be fixed to prevent the possibility of a crash from an in-flight entertainment system fire.

The proposed order requires installing wires and changing electricity load-management-systems panels to ensure pilots are able to use a switch in the cockpit to turn off power to the entertainment systems if a fire breaks out.

Without such capability, the FAA says, pilots might not be able "to control smoke or flames in the airplane flight deck or passenger cabin" and could lose control of the plane.

The order will apply to 777-200s (I am assuming 777-200s, 777-200ERs and 777-200LRs) and 777-300ERs operated by UA, DL and AA.

The AD will be published on Friday and the airlines will have 45 days to make the changes.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel...7173/

Question, this may be stupid, but why don't other operators of the 777 (SQ, EK, AF, etc) have to react to this directive? Is it just because the FAA is the governing body for the US, but then again won't they be the governing body for all American built aircraft?

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-05-10 10:00:48 and read 10487 times.

Quoting kl838 (Reply 5):
Question, this may be stupid, but why don't other operators of the 777 (SQ, EK, AF, etc) have to react to this directive? Is it just because the FAA is the governing body for the US, but then again won't they be the governing body for all American built aircraft?

The FAA does not have jurisdiction to enforce compliance to any carriers not based in the United States. However, almost every country’s local regulatory authority copies exactly what the FAA does. EASA and Transport Canada are some of the few regulatory authorities that do not necessarily follow the FAA.

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 4):
I wonder if one of the airlines found something wrong and alerted the FAA to let the other airlines know. I mean, competition or not, safety is important for everyone. Would this type of problem come up in a normal maintenance check, or FAA inspection, if they still do that? And that raises the question, do airlines alert other carriers when a problem is found, when they fly the same aircraft?

Operators are required to report certain events to the FAA and manufacturer within a certain number of days. These are serious flight problems including in flight fires, diversions, air turnbacks, rejected takeoffs, inflight shutdowns, etc. The manufacturer and FAA review and this is one way to kickoff the process that results in an airworthiness directive like this one.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: kl838
Posted 2013-05-10 10:47:45 and read 10321 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 6):
The FAA does not have jurisdiction to enforce compliance to any carriers not based in the United States. However, almost every country’s local regulatory authority copies exactly what the FAA does. EASA and Transport Canada are some of the few regulatory authorities that do not necessarily follow the FAA.

Thanks, I was assuming that would have been the case, but I wasn't to sure.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: planesmart
Posted 2013-05-10 12:04:10 and read 9837 times.

Perhaps as part of the 787's electrical issues, manufacturers and airlines have been proactive, pointing infrared thermometers at possible hotspots in all models.

The screen surrounds on IFE's get very hot, so I imagine there is a fair amount of heat at the other end of the set-up.

Would also presumably make it easier to turn off when on the ground for extended periods.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-05-10 12:49:33 and read 9386 times.

Quoting planesmart (Reply 8):
Perhaps as part of the 787's electrical issues, manufacturers and airlines have been proactive, pointing infrared thermometers at possible hotspots in all models.

Fire has always been a hot topic due to the number of airplane accidents related to fire. I would say Air Canada 797, Valujet, TWA 800 and Swissair 111 did far more for the industry than the 787 battery problem.

Air Canada 797 changed the way evacuation procedures are conducted and enhanced flammability requirements, and added smoke detectors and extinguishers.
Valujet changed cargo bin fire suppression and brought attention to hazardous cargo
TWA 800 changed all the ignition prevention and bonding and grounding requirements throughout the airplane
Swissair 111 changed the way electrical fire risk was handled and changed flight deck procedures for response from fires.

Accidents and major incidents always shape the way the industry works. I don't think any airline is pointing infrared thermometers around planes. That's not a part of scheduled maintenance, but we have a huge amount of fire prevention technology going on behind the scenes that a passenger would never see or know about.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-05-10 13:06:54 and read 9206 times.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
I believe everyone is looking at electrical issues much more close after the B788 battery issues.

I am not too sure why this has even made the news, ADs get published all the time, and operators comply with them. It is a somewhat invisible process that the traveling public does not see.

I am not sure how you assume this is connected with the 787, I would wager this is a result of what they have found on the 777.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: SSTeve
Posted 2013-05-10 14:08:53 and read 8622 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 3):
I’m not sure how familiar you are with the Airworthiness Directive process, but it has nothing to do with political pandering and the Obama administration.

It's not like the NLRB is "the administration" either, with regards to the Boeing Charleston tiff. Nonetheless, everything people hate about their government is Obama's fault for awhile.  

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-10 14:50:18 and read 8268 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 10):
I am not too sure why this has even made the news, ADs get published all the time,

yea, but 45 days implies this one is being taken seriously but I agree is not newsworthy... But as you note, ADs are not that unusual and 30 day ADs are the ones the FAA has sweat over...

Quoting Stitch (Thread starter):
to prevent the possibility of a crash from an in-flight entertainment system fire.

My first thought is that would be a horrid way to go...

My second thougth was I used to have one of the laptops that had a 'higher than average incidence of battery fire' and I used to use it *on my lap.*   


This is why aviation is so safe. Issues are addressed in a timely manner.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-05-10 17:09:40 and read 7389 times.

This further demonstrates the lunacy of the 787 grounding. "Unsafe" 777s that could catch fire at any moment are allowed to fly during the investigation and can still fly for 45 days, presumably in a constant state of "about to crash-ness", yet the 787 was grounded for 3 months despite the potential danger being theoretical and not happening in the actual in-flight incident.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: IAHFLYR
Posted 2013-05-10 17:27:20 and read 7305 times.

What I heard today from a UA B772 Captain, yes sCO, is that their 22 airplanes have already done the modifications to the IFE when they put in the lay flat seats a couple of years back so it's the sUA airplanes that need the modification.

Remember it's only a pilot I heard this from!  

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2013-05-10 17:35:35 and read 7266 times.

Everybody please, just calm down.

Quoting Stitch (Thread starter):
The AD will be published on Friday and the airlines will have 45 days to make the changes.

First, it's 45 days for the airlines to make comments.

Second, this will have very little if any effect on any of the 777's in the US. Several years ago Boeing provided SB's to install such a switch and all 777's produced since then have a switch to cut power to the IFE specifically. Any airplanes produced prior to about 2007 that haven't installed the SB's would be effected but I'm guessing any major carrier will have already done most if not all the required work.


http://www.ofr.gov/(S(sdc3mk233d4gwa...FRUpload/OFRData/2013-11063_PI.pdf

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: papertec
Posted 2013-05-11 06:22:23 and read 4627 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):

I'm beginning to wonder if this is political pandering against Boeing from the Obama administration  

Just for the record, you pander "to" somebody or some entity to gratify or indulge them..."pandering against" something doesn't get you anywhere!  

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: aaron747
Posted 2013-05-11 06:29:33 and read 4601 times.

What do we still need IFE for anyway when almost everyone has tablets and smartphones with far more content than most of the airlines are offering? Think of all the money and weight they could save.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-05-11 06:55:59 and read 4470 times.

Quoting Stitch (Thread starter):
The proposed order requires installing wires and changing electricity load-management-systems panels to ensure pilots are able to use a switch in the cockpit to turn off power to the entertainment systems if a fire breaks out.

Without such capability, the FAA says, pilots might not be able "to control smoke or flames in the airplane flight deck or passenger cabin" and could lose control of the plane.

There's not already a switch that allows the pilots to cut all the power to the cabin?

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 17):
What do we still need IFE for anyway when almost everyone has tablets and smartphones with far more content than most of the airlines are offering? Think of all the money and weight they could save.

Except for that sizable portion of the population that doesn't have a smartphone or tablet (or that, like me, would prefer not to have to watch movies or shows on a smartphone-sized screen for the duration of a long-haul flight).

-Mir

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: Roseflyer
Posted 2013-05-11 07:53:53 and read 4209 times.

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 17):

What do we still need IFE for anyway when almost everyone has tablets and smartphones with far more content than most of the airlines are offering? Think of all the money and weight they could save.


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

I am guessing you have never walked around he first and business class sections to see how many people use the on demand IFE, it is so important that inoperative IFE is enoug to make a plane not dispatcheable. They will delay or even cancel a flight to fix it on international flights.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: vgnatl747
Posted 2013-05-11 08:59:40 and read 3926 times.

Wasn't an IFE overheat due to the system running constantly while on the ground the root cause of the fire that bought down Swiss 111 (I think it was 111)?

I guess I'd be a little surprised to find that given the causes and investigation of that crash, modern IFE systems weren't controlled by a breaker or relay accessible from the flight deck. I know new flame retardant requirements for insulation and such came out of that crash, but I would have thought they'd have recommended a shutoff mechanism also.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2013-05-11 09:12:55 and read 3851 times.

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 17):
What do we still need IFE for anyway when almost everyone has tablets and smartphones with far more content than most of the airlines are offering? Think of all the money and weight they could save.

If you ever flown on an aircraft equipped with an AVOD system, those using the AVOD system still greatly outnumber those using their own devices. Furthermore, in-flight Wi-Fi providers such as Gogo are losing money and are struggling to stay in business.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: captainstefan
Posted 2013-05-11 09:36:25 and read 3775 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 21):
If you ever flown on an aircraft equipped with an AVOD system, those using the AVOD system still greatly outnumber those using their own devices. Furthermore, in-flight Wi-Fi providers such as Gogo are losing money and are struggling to stay in business.

Personally, not enough of the aircraft have power outlets for me to sustain/recharge my own device (watching video on a handheld is a pretty quick way to drain the battery) so I'd prefer to use the aircraft's system instead.

I don't know how much it costs GoGo to operate the on-board WiFi, but I think the prices are a tad steep unless you're able to write the cost off on an expense account. If I'm not mistaken, they've even gone up in the past few months or so.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-05-11 11:02:27 and read 3652 times.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 21):
If you ever flown on an aircraft equipped with an AVOD system, those using the AVOD system still greatly outnumber those using their own devices.

Of the people who do choose to use their own devices, most still have the IFE on some channel...even if it's the flightmap...which I believe is still the most popular program on aircraft.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2013-05-11 11:49:13 and read 3607 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
There's not already a switch that allows the pilots to cut all the power to the cabin?

There has been a "cabin" switch for most of modern history -- more recently (about 2007) an IFE switch for those airplanes with IFE has also been added.

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 17):
What do we still need IFE for anyway when almost everyone has tablets and smartphones with far more content than most of the airlines are offering? Think of all the money and weight they could save.

But for any flight beyond a couple of hours you need a power port when your battery runs out and most IFE set ups now come with a power port at each seat. ASA is upgrading their fleet with power ports at each seat even though most of their flights are fairly short they understand the need. I think their IFE is still bring your own or rent one from them.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: planesmart
Posted 2013-05-11 14:15:55 and read 3545 times.

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 17):

On international and longer domestic flights, in Europe, Asia, ME and Australasia, passengers are very unhappy if their personal IFE isn't working.

As others have commented, why strain your eyes and batteries, and incur costs, to use your own devices, when you can use the airlines?

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: aaron747
Posted 2013-05-11 14:50:58 and read 3492 times.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 19):
I am guessing you have never walked around he first and business class sections to see how many people use the on demand IFE

Oh certainly, I'm just saying there may reach a point where it's not as necessary as it once was.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2013-05-11 15:21:16 and read 3457 times.

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 26):
Oh certainly, I'm just saying there may reach a point where it's not as necessary as it once was.

Doesn't matter whether people will use the airplane IFE or their personal IFE the wires will always be there if nothing more than to charge batteries -- the discussion about IFE preferences would best be served on another thread or alternatively this thread should be renamed.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: PHX787
Posted 2013-05-11 16:33:12 and read 3349 times.

To the myriads of comments regarding my joke about political pandering: it was, as I said, a joke. I am fully aware of the process but alas A.net's joke meter is turned to absolute zero recently.

Topic: RE: FAA To Issue AD Over 777 IFE Wiring Fire Risk
Username: SSTeve
Posted 2013-05-12 07:53:53 and read 3074 times.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 28):
To the myriads of comments regarding my joke about political pandering: it was, as I said, a joke. I am fully aware of the process but alas A.net's joke meter is turned to absolute zero recently.

Sure.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/