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Topic: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: avi8tir
Posted 2013-05-10 10:12:25 and read 15344 times.

This happened for about 3 minutes after takeoff..... I fly ERJ's weekly and have never seen anything like this before. Basically started at rotation to about 5,000 feet where it eventually dissipated.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: nightfox365
Posted 2013-05-10 10:23:01 and read 15282 times.

Also you sure that is not just a wing vortex?

[Edited 2013-05-10 10:40:53]

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: XEspecialist
Posted 2013-05-10 10:25:26 and read 15269 times.

That is not a typical sight. Where were you departing out of?

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: avi8tir
Posted 2013-05-10 10:27:50 and read 15249 times.

The ERJ-145XR has winglets. This was not a vortex. As it dissipated you could clearly see the fuel. Plus, not in the right spot for a vortex.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: flight152
Posted 2013-05-10 10:28:27 and read 15228 times.

Quoting nightfox365 (Reply 1):
ERJ145 does not have winglets.

What aircraft would this be then?

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Photo © Nigel Harris-CYYZ Aviation Photography

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: avi8tir
Posted 2013-05-10 10:35:52 and read 15174 times.

May 9th UA 4242 CRW-IAH.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: XEspecialist
Posted 2013-05-10 10:41:53 and read 15112 times.

I've reached out to my sources at Expressjet. The XR doesn't have dumping capabilities, and that seems like an awful lot of fuel to normally be from a vent tank. EICAS would give an indication of a fuel imbalance of any significance. This one is a mystery.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: flyby519
Posted 2013-05-10 10:45:16 and read 15089 times.

That definitely looks like the area below the wing where there is a fuel vent. Not typical, but not a reason for emergency.

Typically this is more common on longer segments where the fuel tanks are closer to fully loaded. (Such as CRW-IAH)

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: Kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-05-10 11:39:53 and read 14913 times.

Quoting avi8tir (Reply 5):
May 9th UA 4242 CRW-IAH.

I knew those hills looked familiar!




Quoting flyby519 (Reply 7):
Typically this is more common on longer segments where the fuel tanks are closer to fully loaded. (Such as CRW-IAH)

How much fuel can leak out.. typically?

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: XEspecialist
Posted 2013-05-10 13:45:07 and read 14279 times.

Just got confirmation from: "Means vent valve did not close after refueling. Vents are suppose to open during refueling to allow equalization of pressure therefore balance in each wing."

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-05-10 16:17:45 and read 12289 times.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 7):

Typically this is more common on longer segments where the fuel tanks are closer to fully loaded. (Such as CRW-IAH)

CRW-IAH is hardly a stretch for this aircraft.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: PC12Fan
Posted 2013-05-10 17:58:08 and read 11295 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 10):

   Especially with the distance being less than it's max and coming / going to an airfield that's not that challenging.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-05-10 20:32:23 and read 9943 times.

Quoting flight152 (Reply 4):

That statement is half right.

The ERJ-145MP/ER/LR does NOT have winglets.
The ERJ-145XR DOES have winglets.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: MSYPI7185
Posted 2013-05-10 20:37:19 and read 9913 times.

I took a picture about a month ago of an ERJ-145 taking off at IAH that had fuel coming from the vent on the left side. I was surprised as it was the first time I had observed this. Now I know why.

Later
MD

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: mav75
Posted 2013-05-10 21:52:22 and read 9267 times.

"CRW-IAH is hardly a stretch for this aircraft."

It can be...considering range alone, you're right...it's not that much of a stretch. The problem with CRW is that it is a hot and high airport with a short runway. This is obviously a delicate issue in the summer, when you are trying to figure out how to fit as many pax on board as possible. The only way to get all 50 pax on an XRJ out of CRW in July or August is to give up fuel to stay below MTOW. This is a bigger problem when there is weather enroute, and you can usually count on that in the summer months. If you have to route your way around a large area of thunderstorms, you have to leave at least 5 pax behind to make it possible. And if you need an alternate for IAH, there goes another 5 or so pax.

CRW - IAH is a PITA with the XRJ and a complete nightmare with the LRJ.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: MSJYOP28Apilot
Posted 2013-05-10 22:11:25 and read 9145 times.

Quoting mav75 (Reply 14):

Much agreed. I dispatched CRW-IAH many times at XJT. In the summer time its a nightmare. IAH gets thunderstorms often in the summer or morning MVFR that either require an alternate or make an alternate highly advisable. When there are thunderstorms, ATC throws out playbook routes for IAH that take the flight all the way over to MCI and ICT and then to DFW before joining the BAZBL arrival. Even the re-route to the WOLDE arrival can take up a significant amount of fuel. A route like CRW-IAH in the summer and also the winter on the LR are diversion fodder. Or you can just bump a bunch of passengers and leave revenue behind for the extra gas. Sometimes you have no choice but to bump the payload.

CRW is a nasty airport to dispatch into and out of. Restrictive approach minimums to ILS 05 and short runways at elevation.

IAD-IAH has to do fuel stops every now and then westbound in the XR especially in the winter. CRW-IAH isn't that much shorter of a flight. Its doable on the XR and LR but it is still a longer RJ segment.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: woodsboy
Posted 2013-05-10 22:54:06 and read 8796 times.

Does an airfield elevation of 982 ft (CRW) qualify as a "high" airport? Hot yes, short runway, yes, bizarre location on a lopped off mountain and I can imagine the restrictions given these qualities, but high?

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: DashTrash
Posted 2013-05-10 23:51:50 and read 8416 times.

Quoting woodsboy (Reply 16):
Does an airfield elevation of 982 ft (CRW) qualify as a "high" airport? Hot yes, short runway, yes, bizarre location on a lopped off mountain and I can imagine the restrictions given these qualities, but high?

Typical WV airport. HTS is the same way. It's not all that high, but high enough couple with the short runway and under performing RJs (although the XR is better).

I was never a fan of the airport, but I like the town. Good overnight.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-05-11 08:49:27 and read 4346 times.

Quoting mav75 (Reply 14):
"CRW-IAH is hardly a stretch for this aircraft."

It can be...considering range alone, you're right...it's not that much of a stretch. The problem with CRW is that it is a hot and high airport with a short runway. This is obviously a delicate issue in the summer, when you are trying to figure out how to fit as many pax on board as possible.
Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 15):
Much agreed. I dispatched CRW-IAH many times at XJT. In the summer time its a nightmare. IAH gets thunderstorms often in the summer or morning MVFR that either require an alternate or make an alternate highly advisable.

Don't confuse load planning and performance with flight planning and range. CRW-IAH is nowhere near long enough to worry about overfilling the tanks. You'd have to have a pretty crappy day if your alternate maxes those tanks out.

[Edited 2013-05-11 08:50:35]

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: twincommander
Posted 2013-05-11 09:21:55 and read 3981 times.

What you are seeing is the vent valve either A. not closing properly, or B. tank is pressurized. or C. flapper valves that are in one of the wing compartments are not closing and its dumping fuel overboard.

Not normal, but not an emergency. Since that wing is down, its reasonable for fuel to be venting.

Once you level off, i bet it stopped.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: coair737
Posted 2013-05-11 09:25:50 and read 3927 times.

I caught this ERJ leaving R9 at IAH a few months ago

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: NW747-400
Posted 2013-05-11 10:10:55 and read 3492 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 18):
Don't confuse load planning and performance with flight planning and range.

All of these items affect each other in a very significant way. You can't do one without the other, so I don't see how there is any confusion on anyone's part.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: avi8tir
Posted 2013-05-11 10:12:23 and read 3469 times.

Quoting coair737 (Reply 20):
I caught this ERJ leaving R9 at IAH a few months ago

Thats it! Exactly what I saw!

Quoting twincommander (Reply 19):
Once you level off, i bet it stopped.

happened just the same in level flight.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-05-11 10:35:46 and read 3316 times.

Quoting NW747-400 (Reply 21):
All of these items affect each other in a very significant way. You can't do one without the other, so I don't see how there is any confusion on anyone's part.

Yes, but in the context of the question at hand, it's irrelevant. You take into account any and all weight restrictions prior to calculating your flight plan, then calculate your payload from that. You can play with your fuel number to maximize payload, but regardless, fuel will always win, because you need that fuel to get to your destination, so, in the case of this particular segment, it would be nowhere near a full tank. Thus, discussing takeoff performance and whether the flight is weight restricted really has no bearing as to whether this particular flight would be fueled near maximum capacity or not.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: Kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-05-11 14:43:55 and read 3133 times.

Quoting mav75 (Reply 14):
The problem with CRW is that it is a hot and high airport with a short runway. This is obviously a delicate issue in the summer, when you are trying to figure out how to fit as many pax on board as possible. The only way to get all 50 pax on an XRJ out of CRW in July or August is to give up fuel to stay below MTOW. This is a bigger problem when there is weather enroute, and you can usually count on that in the summer months. If you have to route your way around a large area of thunderstorms, you have to leave at least 5 pax behind to make it possible. And if you need an alternate for IAH, there goes another 5 or so pax.

CRW - IAH is a PITA with the XRJ and a complete nightmare with the LRJ.

I very seldom see the LR on that one. I can't imagine how ugly the restrictions get on it.

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 15):
Much agreed. I dispatched CRW-IAH many times at XJT. In the summer time its a nightmare. IAH gets thunderstorms often in the summer or morning MVFR that either require an alternate or make an alternate highly advisable. When there are thunderstorms, ATC throws out playbook routes for IAH that take the flight all the way over to MCI and ICT and then to DFW before joining the BAZBL arrival. Even the re-route to the WOLDE arrival can take up a significant amount of fuel. A route like CRW-IAH in the summer and also the winter on the LR are diversion fodder. Or you can just bump a bunch of passengers and leave revenue behind for the extra gas. Sometimes you have no choice but to bump the payload.

I've seen them take that route before.. It's about 3 hours.

To both of you XJet guys, whats a typical restriction on CRW-IAH? I'm wondering how much the extra 500ft. of runway helped?

AA is starting DFW with the CRJ-200 and I'm thinking their dispatchers will be singing the same blues as you two.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 17):
Typical WV airport. HTS is the same way. It's not all that high, but high enough couple with the short runway and under performing RJs (although the XR is better).

I was never a fan of the airport, but I like the town. Good overnight.

Just be careful where you go. It's becoming little dicey down there at times.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: coair737
Posted 2013-05-12 10:13:09 and read 2749 times.

UA already blocks 11 seats daily CRW-IAH even with the XRJ

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: Kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-05-12 13:37:04 and read 2590 times.

Quoting coair737 (Reply 25):
UA already blocks 11 seats daily CRW-IAH even with the XRJ

That's still going on? I heard they ended that procedure.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-05-13 04:34:51 and read 2267 times.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 24):
AA is starting DFW with the CRJ-200 and I'm thinking their dispatchers will be singing the same blues as you two.

Techincally, those dispatchers will be XJet, which means MSJ. I'm not sure about Mav.

----------------------

I'm really surprised that UA hasn't put a CRJ-700 on this route given the payload issues. Being fairly liberal with the termpurature in the dead of summmer---asuming runway 23---this plane still has more than enough performance for this mission---3 hour routing + alternate included.

Topic: RE: Check The Amount Of Fuel Venting From An ERJ145
Username: Kcrwflyer
Posted 2013-05-13 06:13:27 and read 2148 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 27):
I'm really surprised that UA hasn't put a CRJ-700 on this route given the payload issues. Being fairly liberal with the termpurature in the dead of summmer---asuming runway 23---this plane still has more than enough performance for this mission---3 hour routing + alternate included.

I agree. I suppose they enjoy operating the route with one hand tied behind their back, so to speak.


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