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Topic: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: attyavgeek
Posted 2013-05-17 14:00:08 and read 24171 times.

Good article on how Emirates and the other major gulf airlines are going to reshape American aviation. Interesting stuff. The article can be found here:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...n-reshape-american-aviation-109135

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: airdfw
Posted 2013-05-17 14:51:07 and read 23784 times.

They mentioned how AA is going to be center of it but not much meat on how AA will juggle all the balls in the air or how any of the tie ups will be of benefit to AA

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-17 15:00:34 and read 23690 times.

I note the article's comment that EK routing from PVG to JFK via DXB is competitive. Why would anyone want to fly almost 50% further than necessary?

PVG-JFK 6,424 nm
PVG-DXB-JFK 9,439 nm

And most China traffic (and much of the rest of Asia) is to/from the west coast where EK's route via DXB is even less competitive.

PVG-LAX 5,635 nm
PVG-DXB-LAX 10,734 nm

EK is relatively competitive between the east coast and points like BKK/SIN, and of course India and the rest of South Asia, but beyond that I can't see them even remotely "reshaping" American aviation.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2013-05-17 15:10:01 and read 23587 times.

The writer of this article is clearly an EK butt kisser, but you cant knock a few of the facts, however, will it reshape American Aviation? probably not, unless they buy hundreds of narrowbodies and begin Domestic ops here. Then there might be a shot.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: travelin man
Posted 2013-05-17 15:16:47 and read 23513 times.

Quoting airdfw (Reply 1):

EK is relatively competitive between the east coast and points like BKK/SIN, and of course India and the rest of South Asia, but beyond that I can't see them even remotely "reshaping" American aviation.

I agree. EK is good from the US to the Middle East, India, South Asia, and (some of) Africa. Beyond that, I really see JFK-MXP going the way of.... well.... JFK-HAM. And I really don't see EK flying trans-Pac either. By far the largest intercontinental traffic flows from the US are:
- Europe (EK will be a bit player, if that).
- East Asia (EK will not be a factor)
- Latin America (EK will not be a factor)
- Australia (EK will be a very minor player, mainly from the East Coast)

So where is this "reshaping of American aviation"???

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: jpetekyxmd80
Posted 2013-05-17 15:19:38 and read 23474 times.

Absolutely hilarious title.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-05-17 15:21:42 and read 23443 times.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 3):
The writer of this article is clearly an EK butt kisser, but you cant knock a few of the facts, however, will it reshape American Aviation? probably not, unless they buy hundreds of narrowbodies and begin Domestic ops here. Then there might be a shot.

  . ...in which case they'd quickly have their arse handed to them. EY seems more intent on "reshaping aviation" than anyone, buying into carriers and shifting alliances

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: Flaps
Posted 2013-05-17 15:25:09 and read 23384 times.

I can see the point with regard to the impact on alliances but I'm a bit dubious about that assessment on American aviation in general. For one thing, the Middle Eastern expat population within the US is not nearly as large as it is in many parts of Europe. Another factor is the increasing fragmentation of the US international markets. Smaller more efficient aircraft bypassing major hubs and flying directly to secondary cities from major hubs in both directions will continue to dilute the amount of connecting traffic. A third point and I really don't know for certain how much if any impact it has is the potential reluctance of US originating traffic to use the Middle Eastern carriers to the extent of those in other countries.
Im only speaking of myself on the third point but would be curious to see how many others might feel the same way. There are substantial and uncomfortable conflicts of culture in play here that might have an impact in the US that they wouldn't in other countries. Skipping over political correctness here I am uncomfortable with middle eastern cultures in general. I respect them and I respect their rights and histories just as any other but with all of the various cultural and social conflicts between and among the US and Middle Eastern countries I find it to be an uncomfortable environment. Certainly not something that I want to be exposed to in a sealed metal tube for a dozen hours. I sort of liken it to someone from the mountains not liking the beaches and vice versa. I am merely stating a personal preference here, I am not denigrating or putting anyone down. No doubt there are plenty of others on the other side of the fence that feel the same way about my culture and no doubt with just as much justification as I have of theirs.

I did not write that last paragraph to offend anyone. I'm just curious as to how much of an impact those thoughts might have in this particular market. I'm not all that certain that outside of the boardroom business transcends all cultural differences.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: SOBHI51
Posted 2013-05-17 15:50:05 and read 23133 times.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 7):
I did not write that last paragraph to offend anyone

No offence taken, but i will disagree with you on one point

Quoting Flaps (Reply 7):
Certainly not something that I want to be exposed to in a sealed metal tube for a dozen hours

I don't know how much exposure of middle eastern culture you will get traveling on airlines like EK or QR. I from my side i traveled on a lot of European, Eastern European, Asian and American airlines, never felt any clash of cultures in any of those flights, was a little apprehensive flying within the USA for some time after 9/11.
I like to enjoy my trips, i look forward for a comfortable seat, a good meal, on time flight as much as possible and a smiling face, sorry to say i do not find much of that on some of the western airlines.
If you read few of the trip reports, you will find that a lot of Americans, British etc... fly on airlines like EK and QR none of them complained from a culture shock, as far as i know.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: carpethead
Posted 2013-05-17 16:13:27 and read 22989 times.

No foreign airline has any domestic influence because of the regulation regarding foreign ownership. (Was it 25%?)

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 3):
unless they buy hundreds of narrowbodies

Would be interesting to see Emirates America with 77W flying JFK-LAX.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-05-17 16:36:38 and read 22809 times.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 7):
There are substantial and uncomfortable conflicts of culture in play here that might have an impact in the US that they wouldn't in other countries. Skipping over political correctness here I am uncomfortable with middle eastern cultures in general.

But of course the biggest irony is that Emirates is almost anything but Middle Eastern...aside from the physical location of its hub, and offering some Arabic Mezze appetizer on its menu, EK really does not reflect much of Arabic or Middle Eastern culture. Most employees are not even from the area - you will be hard pressed to find more than one or two flight attendants on each flight from the Middle East...you have a bigger chance of being served by a blonde-hair blue-eyed Australian FA or having a European or Canadian pilot.....

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2013-05-17 16:38:19 and read 22793 times.

Quoting carpethead (Reply 9):
Would be interesting to see Emirates America with 77W flying JFK-LAX.

Haha, up against Virgin America's A320's hmm..or AA's A321's....

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-05-17 16:56:54 and read 22664 times.

There are 2 airlines that have and continue to reshape American aviation and those airlines are Delta and Southwest. Southwest has had and continues to have a major impact on domestic operations within the US and while Delta does impact domestic operations within the US their impact is felt more in the international side among US flagged airlines and I don't work for either one of those airlines but that is a true statement.
Emirates will not have an impact on American Aviation because most people in America have never heard of Emirates. And although A.netters love Emirates and we know all about them the average American has never heard of or seen an Emirates airplane and many of them would probably never buy a ticket on Emirates. (Don't ask why, because that is a different conversation that I don't think is appropriate for this website). Most people who live in cities that Emirates already serves here in the US still don't know who Emirates is and this is especially if they don't live in a heavily dominated Middle Eastern or Indian neighborhood. In order to have an impact on something or someone people need to know that you exist. Most Americans know and trust airlines like Southwest, Delta, American, British Airways, Lufthansa, Air France, United, and many others. However most Americans do not know and more importantly they do not trust Emirates. When you buy a ticket to fly on an airline most people around the world buy tickets on airlines that they know and trust. Trust is key because when you buy that ticket and board the flight you are trusting that this airline will get you to your destination safely. And although we here on A,netters know Emirates and know that they are a reputable airlines and trust them Emirates does not share that same level of trust among the general American population. The trust that Emirates enjoys in the Middle East, Europe S.E. Asia, Asia, Africa and Australia does not exist in the US. That is why Emirates flight from JFK-MXP will not have an effect on Delta, American, United or even Alitalia because Americans don't know EK and you don't trust what you don't know. Emirates can try all they want but they will not be reshaping the American Aviation Industry.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-05-17 17:04:16 and read 22601 times.

Quoting travelin man (Reply 4):
EK is good from the US to the Middle East, India, South Asia, and (some of) Africa.

I could see the ME carriers taking US connecting traffic between Latin America and Asia but I do not think that is a tremendous market shift.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
EK is relatively competitive between the east coast and points like BKK/SIN, and of course India and the rest of South Asia, but beyond that I can't see them even remotely "reshaping" American aviation.

Usually CAPA does excellent work but I found this to be light on rationale as well. If they just mean partnerships will be reshapen then I agree. I know DL and UA complain about EK and I am sure there is legitimate risk of hurting these airlines if EK continues to grow in the US. Clearly any market that EY or EK are in the prices are significantly lower than markets where they are not present. Sending A380s can do that. IMO most of the seats that the ME carriers are taking have come at the expense of European carriers. Once these new partnerships are agreed to, domestic airlines will share in this market shift towards the areas where the economics of connecting in the Middle East makes sense.

Asia and the US are going to be highly impacted by the 1000ish 787s that will be out there by 2020. As 65% of these will be Asia or Americas based, connecting Asian cities to American cities will be much easier for many airlines reducing much of any EK advantage. I could even see some of the South Asian business shifting slightly as the west coast of US (UA, DL, & AA with 120 787s) could be flown direct to India (AI with 27) or routed through NRT (JAL and ANA with 111) or CAN/PEK instead of DXB.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: planesmart
Posted 2013-05-17 17:33:14 and read 22450 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 12):

Good comments.

But if I wind the clock back 20 years, or even 10, that mirrors exactly the comments European, Asian and Australasian airline management and passengers were making.

I can recall a meeting with airline executive, not a million miles from you, where the rise of the ME3 (wasn't even 3 at the time), was considered a non-event. Bit players in a desert, that couldn't operate a camel train on time, was how they were described.

And family members, especially older ones, who said hell will freeze before I set foot on a plane operated by anyone, other than BA, BCAL, Qantas and Air NZ. Then the list was extended to Singapore and Cathay. And more recently, most of those have been removed, and a new list created.

In early forays to the US, I met managers who told me they would never, ever buy a Japanese car. Now in retirement, they are driving Japanese, or even Korean cars.

You have made good points, but they have the hallmarks of complacency, not unlike another thread regarding US airports.

Social media, the scale of aviation, untapped regions, rate of change, and willingness to experiment, has greatly changed the aviation World order. US airlines, airports and management bury their head in the proverbial sand, at their own peril.

I say to clients, why do you spend so much time talking about these airlines, if they are no threat? And if they are no threat, and Americans would not fly with them, why not give them unrestricted access to the USA? But if they are a threat, stop talking and take action (you can say these things when you are old).

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2013-05-17 17:44:16 and read 22357 times.

Quoting planesmart (Reply 14):
I say to clients, why do you spend so much time talking about these airlines, if they are no threat? And if they are no threat, and Americans would not fly with them, why not give them unrestricted access to the USA? But if they are a threat, stop talking and take action (you can say these things when you are old).

First off, I dont say they are or are not a threat in my post. Here in the US, any airline flying domestically (without 3rd - 5th freedoms) cannot have more than 25% foreign ownership. There's one barrier. The other is, where would they fly to and from that doesnt have 4-5 other US based carriers already serving it? That's barrier #2.

To answer your other comment I know plenty of American citizens who travel on EK and QR (especially out of IAH). Houston as a city knows both airlines fairly well (QR has a huge sales office in Houston), and they also know Singapore well too.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: travelin man
Posted 2013-05-17 17:51:33 and read 22315 times.

Quoting planesmart (Reply 14):
I say to clients, why do you spend so much time talking about these airlines, if they are no threat? And if they are no threat, and Americans would not fly with them, why not give them unrestricted access to the USA? But if they are a threat, stop talking and take action (you can say these things when you are old).

Please explain in which of these markets you see EK "reshaping" American Aviation:

Quoting travelin man (Reply 4):
- Europe (EK will be a bit player, if that).
- East Asia (EK will not be a factor)
- Latin America (EK will not be a factor)
- Australia (EK will be a very minor player, mainly from the East Coast)

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-05-17 18:12:52 and read 22006 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 12):

In the past id say AA and WN. Until the mid to late 2000s Delta was never a leader. Moving forward the airline that will reshape American aviation is SPIRIT. Their business model will end up being copied by all other airlines except possibly WN by the year 2020 or the next recession. Unbundling is the future for everyone. I think in the next recession when airlines are losing billions, charging for carry ons will be too sweet to pass up.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: planesmart
Posted 2013-05-17 18:19:39 and read 21886 times.

Quoting travelin man (Reply 16):
Please explain in which of these markets you see EK "reshaping" American Aviation:

Quoting travelin man (Reply 4):
- Europe (EK will be a bit player, if that).
- East Asia (EK will not be a factor)
- Latin America (EK will not be a factor)
- Australia (EK will be a very minor player, mainly from the East Coast)

Rather than debating on a website that EK (or any other foreign owned airlines) wouldn't change the shape of US aviation, if US confidence levels are so high that they won't, remove the barriers, give them access, and lets see if and how the shape changes.

If you are right, EK will lose a lot of money, and the status quo will prevail.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: johns624
Posted 2013-05-17 18:32:25 and read 21597 times.

Quoting planesmart (Reply 18):
Rather than debating on a website that EK (or any other foreign owned airlines) wouldn't change the shape of US aviation, if US confidence levels are so high that they won't, remove the barriers, give them access, and lets see if and how the shape changes.

If you are right, EK will lose a lot of money, and the status quo will prevail.

That sure is a longwinded way of saying "I don't know".

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-05-17 18:45:38 and read 21378 times.

The article proves exactly one thing: EK has reached its limit and in order to continue to grow and fill the seats of it's enourmous airplane order book, it needs other airlines. EK needs a US partner more than any US airline needs EK. The same was true for the QF deal, and the same is true in regards to a deal with any other airline. When is the rest of the world going to wake up?

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-05-17 18:49:46 and read 21306 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 12):
Emirates will not have an impact on American Aviation because most people in America have never heard of Emirates.

EK will clearly have a great advantage over domestic carriers with US travelers flying to the Middle East and South Asia. IMO the vast majority of these passengers will have either heard of Emirates, are savvy enough to look up safety records to become comfortable if they were not, or they do not care one bit they just chose the cheapest and do not care about Brand. This area in the world does not draw your average American traveler otherwise I would completely agree.

Your comments are valid for most of the other markets in the world and in large part I agree with you that it is definitely a legitimate barrier. I am just not sure EK is going to be a key player in the markets where that will matter.

Quoting planesmart (Reply 14):
But if they are a threat, stop talking and take action (you can say these things when you are old).

I think domestic carriers clearly do see EK as a threat. They would be naive not to after seeing what is happening in Europe and at QF (EK is sending 4 A380s/day to Brisbane?). The trick is figuring out just how big of a threat they are before determining what that appropriate reaction is: alliance, agreement, political pressure, public relations, ignore them in study hall, etc.

Quoting planesmart (Reply 18):
if US confidence levels are so high that they won't, remove the barriers, give them access, and lets see if and how the shape changes.

Can you fill me in on the barriers? I thought we had 'open skies' with Qatar and UAE? I do not doubt that there are some in place at the airport level but its not like Canada. If a domestic airline can prevent a foreign competitor from growing, why wouldn't they influence the decision making to the extent that they are able?

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: HKG212
Posted 2013-05-17 20:32:45 and read 19782 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 13):
I could see the ME carriers taking US connecting traffic between Latin America and Asia but I do not think that is a tremendous market shift.

They can certianly do that, especially as long as the U.S. does not allow visa-free transfer for international to international traffic, like DXB does, and pretty much all other international airports in the world.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-05-17 20:46:09 and read 19548 times.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 7):

I'm just guessing here, but I suspect you've not flown EK? Other than a small headscarf on female cabin crew, you'd be hard pressed to tell where an EK plane is from.

[Edited 2013-05-17 20:46:49]

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: usa330300
Posted 2013-05-17 21:23:37 and read 19066 times.

Quoting attyavgeek (Thread starter):
Good article on how Emirates and the other major gulf airlines are going to reshape American aviation. Interesting stuff. The article can be found here:

You're most likely correct. The American public is so lackadaisical. It is obviously a portion of the Muslims' Jihad.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: goldenargosy
Posted 2013-05-17 22:19:54 and read 19083 times.

Having flown JFK - DXB - BKK last year on EK. I can assure myself of one thing: Never again. Totally ridiculous to fly a single mile out of my way, when there are plenty of far shorter options over the Pacific.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: lucky777
Posted 2013-05-17 23:27:31 and read 18170 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 17):
. I think in the next recession when airlines are losing billions, charging for carry ons will be too sweet to pass up.

"Next recession".....? How about the one we've been in since 2007. The chessboard has been wiped clean and reset, at least here in the U.S. with the recent bankruptcies and mergers. And by virtually all accounts, the legacies have finally put themselves into a position for long-term profitability in any economic setting. So therefore, I wholeheartedly disagree with your assertion that the airlines are one recession away from doom and gloom once more.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: PEK777
Posted 2013-05-17 23:32:51 and read 18265 times.

Wow, what a joke

  

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: twincessna340a
Posted 2013-05-17 23:54:51 and read 17938 times.

Quoting planesmart (Reply 14):
But if I wind the clock back 20 years, or even 10, that mirrors exactly the comments European, Asian and Australasian airline management and passengers were making.

Good point, but your forgetting the underlying history. The Middle East has been a transportation hub for Europe and Asia for centuries....primarily for trade and in more recent times vacation. Australia was formed as a British penal colony, which travel took routes through the Middle East and India. North America has had almost nothing to do with Middle East except for oil imports. Why? It is literally almost on the other side of the globe. Is the family from Iowa going to go to the Atlantis in the Bahamas or the carbon copy in Dubai?

Middle East carriers flourished because they offered a superior product in an existing market.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 21):
I think domestic carriers clearly do see EK as a threat. They would be naive not to after seeing what is happening in Europe and at QF (EK is sending 4 A380s/day to Brisbane?).

Other than a few key international routes (which you only mention SE Asia and the Middle East itself), what market does EK have in the US? Brisbane is a secondary international market, is EK gonna send 4x A380s to ATL or DEN and make DL or UA cry? Most of that traffic is also the Kangaroo Route, which consumers obviously prefer EK's product and connecting in DXB as apposed to their other options.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 15):
To answer your other comment I know plenty of American citizens who travel on EK and QR (especially out of IAH). Houston as a city knows both airlines fairly well (QR has a huge sales office in Houston), and they also know Singapore well too.

I agree that EK,EY,QR have greater brand recognition than most think, however Houston is poor example to illustrate the point. EK and QR have a large following in Houston because they offer direct flights between one oil hub and another oil hub.

[Edited 2013-05-18 00:00:44]

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: TWA772LR
Posted 2013-05-18 00:01:04 and read 17915 times.

Quote:
Emirates is the world’s largest international long-haul operator by a wide margin; even on a seat basis, only three European airlines (Ryanair, easyJet and Lufthansa) head it, thanks to their high density short-haul operations.

British Airways is number 4 on the chart, ahead of EasyJet and FR. You can't consider U2 a European airline, without considering BA European airline. Especially when they are based in the same country!
Credibility lost.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):

They are talking about prices.

[Edited 2013-05-18 00:07:33]

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: Emirates2005
Posted 2013-05-18 00:29:46 and read 17508 times.

Again has been someone at EK smoking a bit too much shisha?

EK has huge plans, but their service is deteriorating, their staff is unhappy and other premium carriers are already taking an advantage of this.

My .02 cents is that in a few years we'll see EK walking the path of PanAm.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-05-18 01:20:40 and read 16853 times.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 28):
Other than a few key international routes (which you only mention SE Asia and the Middle East itself), what market does EK have in the US?

I believe EK has an advantage from the US to the Middle East and South Asia. Additionally, I can see how they can compete on price but not on travel time for US East Coast to some Southeast Asian locations (BKK, SIN, etc) and I can see them taking some South American to Asia connecting flights from the US domestics but that small.

I mentioned EK's 4 A380s to Brisbane as only an indication of kind of traffic EK can consume at a small airport (~20 Million passengers? Not even the top 50 worldwide) with their impressive fleet. They should be perceived as a threat to domestic carriers but I think it will be limited to the markets I mention above. If EK can develop more of these FCO-JFK relationships it could grow to be a force in other markets as well. As I mentioned, I believe that 787s between Asia and US will drive that market.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2013-05-18 04:54:14 and read 14099 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 31):
I believe that 787s between Asia and US will drive that market.

  

We've already seen an increase in nonstop service to Asia over the past 10 years, and I believe we are likely to see more of it as carriers such as UA and AA take delivery of the 787. I think the challenge, though, is geographical. It is very hard for alliances such as AA/BA/IB, UA/LH/OS/LX and DL/AF/KL/AZ to compete against the centrality of the DXB hub. To India, for example, they cannot get traffic from the Middle East; they either get traffic from Europe or North America. That forces them to cover the cost of flying them across the Atlantic and then to India when accepting a US passenger, which could displace a European passenger, who is relatively cheaper to serve. Availability of their better fares to US passengers is therefore not on par with other EK, who will often be less expensive to begin with and will have better availability in the lower buckets. EK is also able to source their passengers from across the globe and have a better fare mix within the same cabin, which in turn enables them to offer lower fares to any given group. The only answer for the US-European alliances might be more capacity from Europe to key cities in the Middle East and India, but that would likely only dilute the quality of revenue the legacy carriers need. ULH flights are also out of the question without a hub on both ends. The future looks difficult from this perspective, but we should remember that the threat from the Gulf carriers mostly concerns SE Asia, the Middle East and some Africa and Australia flying.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: avek00
Posted 2013-05-18 05:08:40 and read 13915 times.

The United States has enjoyed the benefit of shrewd, bipartisan aviation policies for nearly 40 years, which has maintained our solid position as the world's most advanced aviation market. Emirates and similar Gulf carriers will have a role in offering service to and from the United States, especially for traffic too price-sensitive or thin to be economically served with nonstops from the USA. However, the "pull no punches" efforts of our officials at the Departments of State and Transportation during the GWB and Obama Administrations to get Open Skies deals negotiated with nearly all of our key markets, and to facilitate codesharing and/or immunized cooperation between our legacies and other key legacy airlines around the world, greatly inoculates us from parasitic invasions like those being witnessed in Europe.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-05-18 05:16:04 and read 13795 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 31):
I believe EK has an advantage from the US to the Middle East and South Asia.

They don't. The smallest plane they'll have that can serve the US from DXB is the A359. That's simply too much plane for most American cities, without a strong domestic partner. That is why EK has had a very difficult time entering the US market, and that is why I said above that EK needs an american carrier more than any American carrier needs EK.
The likes of UA, DL, etc have the potential to run circles around EK flying their 787's between a variety of US cities and the ME/S.Asia and syphoning away their valuable connecting passengers.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-05-18 06:16:43 and read 12725 times.

Quoting lucky777 (Reply 26):

Officially the recession ended in June 2009. Things have gotten better and can certainly get worse.
The chess board has not been wiped clean. A decline in corporate earnings will result in fewer business travelers and a decline in airline profits.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: avek00
Posted 2013-05-18 07:23:40 and read 11629 times.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 28):
Middle East carriers flourished because they offered a superior product in an existing market.

The ME3 "flourish" by:

1. Making a mockery out of international air rights;

2. Ownership by parties unconcerned with the need for the airlines to make standalone profits;

3. Targeting markets and carriers that are hamstrung into a weak competitive posture by the non-forward thinking regulatory/development environments in which they reside (such as Western Europe).

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-05-18 07:56:27 and read 11034 times.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 36):
1. Making a mockery out of international air rights;

How are they making a mockery of them?

Quoting avek00 (Reply 36):
Ownership by parties unconcerned with the need for the airlines to make standalone profits;

You think EK doesn't make massive profits? You think EK's owners don't care if it makes a profit?

Quoting avek00 (Reply 36):
Targeting markets and carriers that are hamstrung into a weak competitive posture by the non-forward thinking regulatory/development environments in which they reside (such as Western Europe).

Shrewd business I'd call it.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-18 08:10:53 and read 10745 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 35):
Officially the recession ended in June 2009.

Not that it's a subject for this forum, but did that "official" line come out of the White House?

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-05-18 08:27:04 and read 10491 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 21):
They would be naive not to after seeing what is happening in Europe and at QF (EK is sending 4 A380s/day to Brisbane?)

You are misreading (an admittedly poorly worded) article.

Emirates has two flights at BNE: DXB-BNE-AKL and DXB-SIN-BNE. The DXB-BNE-AKL flightis being switched to an A380 instead of the current 773ER in Oct (the other flight is also a 773ER). So the "4 daily flights" are just the DXB-BNE, BNE-AKL, AKL-BNE, and BNE-AKL segments that operate each and every day.

It is not as extreme as the article implies, when the article is saying daily flights it literally just means flights, not round trips- it would be the equivalent as saying EK operates 2 daily flights in SEA...that is true but it is the equivalent of 1 round trip (DXB-SEA and the return).

Quoting mayor (Reply 38):
Not that it's a subject for this forum, but did that "official" line come out of the White House?

Not to get off topic but "recession" has a specific definition in economics. Just because it feels like we are in a recession doesn't mean we technically are in the eyes of economists.

[Edited 2013-05-18 08:28:43]

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: Flaps
Posted 2013-05-18 08:41:53 and read 10206 times.

All else aside, I cannot possibly see EK being able to fill those massive aircraft out of the US market. There is no substantial migrant worker traffic such as in Asia-Middle East (ours just hop the fence, no need to fly). The VFR traffic base such as that found in Europe - Middle East is much smaller out of the US, and all of the traffic is heavily dispersed among multiple US hubs/destinations. The US premium traffic is fairly well tied to the alliances and therefore the thought that EK must establish a solid alliance affiliation to even crack into the market. Now if EK were to branch out into smaller aircraft that might be a different story but how that impacts their business model would have to be a major consideration.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-18 08:46:23 and read 10084 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 39):
Just because it feels like we are in a recession doesn't mean we technically are in the eyes of economists.

If it swims like a duck, walks like a duck, etc., etc., ...................................

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: mcogator
Posted 2013-05-18 09:56:25 and read 8987 times.

Quoting goldenargosy (Reply 25):
Having flown JFK - DXB - BKK last year on EK. I can assure myself of one thing: Never again. Totally ridiculous to fly a single mile out of my way, when there are plenty of far shorter options over the Pacific.

Far shorter? 2 % shorter?

JFK-DXB-BKK 9899 miles
JFK-NRT-BKK 9634 miles

So what happens when your JFK-NRT flight is delayed, and you have to spend the night in NRT when you miss the once daily to BKK? EK has 6 dailies to BKK. I would take my chances flying the far longer(265 miles) route through DXB, but that's just my opinion.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: Mercure1
Posted 2013-05-18 09:58:14 and read 8924 times.

The revenue impact to the US carriers is any Atlantic revenue sharing gains $ they currently see with flow through traffic (to ME, Africa, India etc) via alliance carrier hubs. That is likely drying up.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: mcogator
Posted 2013-05-18 09:59:19 and read 8907 times.

Quoting usa330300 (Reply 24):
You're most likely correct. The American public is so lackadaisical. It is obviously a portion of the Muslims' Jihad.

I'm not sure if serious, or if you quoted the wrong person.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: BD338
Posted 2013-05-18 10:07:05 and read 8752 times.

when these sort of "ludicrous" statements come up about someone re-shaping the status quo, only to be followed by a deluge of denials from the status quo supporters, I always think of Sony in the 1980/90's and their near 100% saturation of the personal music business with the Walkman and ownership of vast swathes of the music industry...I wonder if they thought some little upstart computer company in CA would one day not so far in the future come to dominate the market and utterly destroy their business model.

Not saying EK will be quite so dominant and game changing, but I wouldn't be so quick to deny the possibilities out of hand. The US market (for everything) will still be massive but it likely won't be quite so singularly dominant as it has been for the past 30-40 years. A lot can change in 10 years.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-18 10:59:58 and read 7988 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 21):
Quoting planesmart (Reply 18):
if US confidence levels are so high that they won't, remove the barriers, give them access, and lets see if and how the shape changes.

Can you fill me in on the barriers? I thought we had 'open skies' with Qatar and UAE?

I interpreted "barriers" to refer to cabotage (domestic rights) which is very rarely permitted. And even 7th freedom rights (stand-alone 5th freedom) are also very rare even in open skies agreements with isolated exceptions, often only for all-cargo services.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-05-18 11:06:56 and read 7877 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
I interpreted "barriers" to refer to cabotage (domestic rights) which is very rarely permitted. And even 7th freedom rights (stand-alone 5th freedom) are also very rare even in open skies agreements with isolated exceptions, often only for all-cargo services.

Not that you would see all that much difference if EK was granted domestic rights...

As much of A.net likes to think otherwise if a foreign airline is granted US domestic flights you would not see them flooding the market with 3 class international product widebodies. You might see that on a few select routes (i.e. LAX-JFK) but for the most part they would ignore the market to US carriers or operate narrow bodies with a product surprisingly similar to existing domestic services. (Assuming they actually have an interest in making money).

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: scbriml
Posted 2013-05-18 12:07:25 and read 7109 times.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 40):
All else aside, I cannot possibly see EK being able to fill those massive aircraft out of the US market.

Yet they already fly "those massive aircraft" to the US.

How on Earth do they fill those five daily A380s to Heathrow (not to mention the multiple dailies to Gatwick). And they make a profit. Outrageous!

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: mcogator
Posted 2013-05-18 12:10:14 and read 7051 times.

In the "similar topics" field, there is a thread titled "Emirates Aims to Redraw World Aviation Map" from 6 years ago. The comments are quite similar as in this thread.

IHT: Emirates Aims To Redraw World Aviation Map (by Positiverate Jul 6 2007 in Civil Aviation)

The most similar?

"We will see what happens when the 787 starts to come out in force. Especially for the Indian Airlines that have ordered it. Time will tell who was right. That is a hell of a lot of A380's to keep full!!! Wink"

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-05-18 12:49:20 and read 6553 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 41):
If it swims like a duck, walks like a duck, etc., etc., ...................................

Except it doesn't swim or walk like a duck, unless you're listening to Fox News.
Corporate profits are up, unemployment is down, the DOW is at an ALL TIME HIGH. How that even looks like a recession, let alone be one, is beyond me.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 40):
All else aside, I cannot possibly see EK being able to fill those massive aircraft out of the US market.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 48):
Yet they already fly "those massive aircraft" to the US.

Not in significant numbers. EK has a mere 8 daily flights to the entire US. That's just 1 more daily than they have to LHR alone. Which goes back to what I said above in reply 34:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 34):
They don't. The smallest plane they'll have that can serve the US from DXB is the A359. That's simply too much plane for most American cities, without a strong domestic partner. That is why EK has had a very difficult time entering the US market, and that is why I said above that EK needs an american carrier more than any American carrier needs EK.

Simply put, outside of the largest cities there aren't enough people traveling to the ME and S.Asia to fill all those seats and DXB is in a crappy geographic location to server any other markets from the US. The 3 big international markets from the US are Europe, East Asia, and Latin America.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-05-18 13:29:25 and read 6055 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 32):
It is very hard for alliances such as AA/BA/IB, UA/LH/OS/LX and DL/AF/KL/AZ to compete against the centrality of the DXB hub.

For certain routes I agree. That is why I think alliances with EY and QR is the next logical step. EK may be a different beast.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 34):
That's simply too much plane for most American cities, without a strong domestic partner.

I really think you have a good point here. What about the 40 Million passengers that fly with them from non-US locations though, many of them will want to go to JFK, LAX, etc. As long as the rest of their markets keep growing 20% like they are, do you think they can fill planes delivering those passengers to and from US cities while augmenting those flights by smaller US traffic? I would love to see the statistic but I imagine EK flights to/from the US are primarily not US citizens which may not be the case of US domestic airlines. Good point airbazar, I would like to know how they are filling the planes they are already sending.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 34):
The likes of UA, DL, etc have the potential to run circles around EK flying their 787's between a variety of US cities and the ME/S.Asia and syphoning away their valuable connecting passengers.

That seems like the logical response. Not sure if the US has ordered enough 787s to take on EK's 77W/77X/A380s though. May be tough to compete on price but, you're right, brand loyalty means a lot in the US.

Quoting Polot (Reply 39):
that is true but it is the equivalent of 1 round trip

I did not catch that, good point.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 42):
Far shorter? 2 % shorter?

JFK-DXB-BKK 9899 miles
JFK-NRT-BKK 9634 miles

That is not the whole story though. While shorter in miles, the route through NRT is 1.5 hours longer due to route and winds. Along with price, this is why I think EK has a market from some of South East Asia to US East Coast.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 46):
And even 7th freedom rights (stand-alone 5th freedom) are also very rare even in open skies agreements with isolated exceptions, often only for all-cargo services.

Yeah I thought he was just referring to allowing flights to/from the US. As far as I know they are not being restricted. Maybe he was referring to 7th freedoms, who knows.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-05-18 16:17:50 and read 5286 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 50):

It not a recession. It's the worst economic expansion since before WW2.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-05-18 16:49:50 and read 5209 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 31):
I mentioned EK's 4 A380s to Brisbane as only an indication of kind of traffic EK can consume at a small airport (~20 Million passengers? Not even the top 50 worldwide) with their impressive fleet. They should be perceived as a threat to domestic carriers but I think it will be limited to the markets I mention above. If EK can develop more of these FCO-JFK relationships it could grow to be a force in other markets as well. As I mentioned, I believe that 787s between Asia and US will drive that market.

Flying 4 A380's to Brisbane does not indicate how traffice EK is moving. Having 4 A380's on a particular route does represent a lot of capacity but how many seats are they selling out of the total number of seat available on any particular day. I'm not impressed because EK's is flying 4 A380's to Brisbane, EK will be the largest A380 operator so they have to send those airplanes somewhere but how many A380's are going out empty and how many are going out full? If EK is filling 4 A380's daily then that is impressive but I highly doubt that is the case.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-18 18:26:07 and read 5003 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 50):
unemployment is down

Only if you don't count the people that have run out of their unemployment benefits and are no longer counted as "unemployed" or counted at all, for that matter.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: ASA
Posted 2013-05-18 20:47:59 and read 4835 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 53):
If EK is filling 4 A380's daily then that is impressive but I highly doubt that is the case.

Don't know about the A380s ... but I recently flew MAD-DXB-BKK-DXB-MAD on a combination of 77W-A388-77W-77L over a week in late April and early May ... and load factor was about 70% at best.

LOTS of free seats!!!

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: avek00
Posted 2013-05-18 23:44:26 and read 4608 times.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 37):
How are they making a mockery of them?

As discussed in other threads, it remains a central expectation in the international civil aviation regime that carriers engaged in international flying do so with the primary focus of transporting pax to and from their home countries. Outside of the ME3, SQ, and KLM, this is generally the case -- United, American, Delta, Air France, Qantas, BA, etc. primarily carry people to and from their home countries, although they all certainly have a thriving third-country connector role as well.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-05-19 01:51:11 and read 4460 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 53):
Having 4 A380's on a particular route does represent a lot of capacity but how many seats are they selling out of the total number of seat available on any particular day.

If there ever was an EK statistic to be impressed by it would have been that: 4 A380s to DXB from Brisbane daily as that would have represented about 18% of the total international market of that airport (and another 18% was to AKL) all to a carrier's hub that is located 6,500nm away. I say 'was' because, it was debunked upthread by @Polot in #39. Hard to believe that it would not have been impressive if it was true. It would have been almost three times the real figure. No, I do not think EK send A380s to any market where they do not think they can make money. That is what their 125 777s would be for if that was the case.

The fact that they fly more ASKs than any other airline in the world and make solid profits tell me they are pretty smart at what they do. The fact that they send more than the equivalent of 9 777s to North American every day and have talked about excellent yields is all I know for sure. I do not know what their loads are so I will not speculate about how many aircraft are 'empty' as you say.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-05-19 02:37:08 and read 4344 times.

I was reading over Airbus' projects for the next 20 years:
http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pr...?eID=dam_frontend_push&docID=25776

On page 40 you will see two pie graphs. It shows something that I think is important to this conversation. I wish I could paste it in here but I am slow on the uptake. The chart show inter regional traffic and specifically shows that approximately 5% of the world's traffic that cross regions (continents?) originates from North America while approximately 45% of the world's cross regional traffic arrived in North America. I take this to mean that a lot more people come to the US from other continents than leave it for another continent. The chart is vague so let me know if anyone has different interpretation.

I was not surprised on the direction but the magnitude. If this is true then I see this as support EK's potential growth in the US. Here is why:
-that means most of the US traffic is from other continents limiting brand loyalty draw toward US domestic brands
-the Emirates Brand is more recognizable internationally and will not be as much of a deterant to light travelers.
-much higher probability that the originating traffic is closer to DXB making EK more likely

Alliances are still a very big bogey here. Also, much of this traffic is probably from Europe and Latin America and EK would not have any real draw from there. Finally, I do not see EK entering into markets like PEK, NRT, HKG, SYD or other similarly longitudinal destinations. However, knowing that the vast majority of distance travel to/from the US is based from other continents only helps EK IMO.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-05-19 05:22:20 and read 4147 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 32):
I think the challenge, though, is geographical. It is very hard for alliances such as AA/BA/IB, UA/LH/OS/LX and DL/AF/KL/AZ to compete against the centrality of the DXB hub.

In the context of this discussion [reshape American aviation], DXB is in a really bad location so EK poses no bigger a threat than any other airline.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 52):
It not a recession. It's the worst economic expansion since before WW2.

That depends on which sector of the economy you work for. But It's not 1945 anymore. Wake up and get used to it. This is the new normal. High unemployment is no longer a clear cut indication of a bad economy. You only have to look at the last presidential election to see that. It's going to take a generation or 2 to reshape the American labor market.

Quoting mayor (Reply 54):
Only if you don't count the people that have run out of their unemployment benefits and are no longer counted as "unemployed" or counted at all, for that matter.

But we never counted those people, even when the economy was in much better shape so why would we count them now? Apples to apples. Also, large unemployment does not mean bad economy. Look at Brazil for example. It does however increase the gap between the rich and poor and it creates other problems. It also means that there are a lot of unqualified people out there for today's job market. If you're a qualified software engineer in this country for example, you can name your own salary.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 51):
Good point airbazar, I would like to know how they are filling the planes they are already sending.

They have a huge catchment area in the ME and Asia and they are sending them to JFK, LAX, etc, cities in the US where most of those people want to go. But when you start getting into medium and smaller sized cities that's where the problems start for them. SEA is a 772 which is the smallest long haul plane they have in the fleet. I'd be surprised if this route makes money in the off-season. That's why they are expanding partnerships with AS and B6. The recently announced code-share agreement with B6 tells me that EK's next US city will be BOS  

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-05-19 09:36:58 and read 3818 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 59):
That depends on which sector of the economy you work for. But It's not 1945 anymore.

Hows this: Employment and GDP growth since June 2009, are the worst they have been coming out of any recession since 1945. Your fact it isnt 1945 anymore isnt relevant. It simply shows how bad this expansion has been in its first 4 years.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 59):
High unemployment is no longer a clear cut indication of a bad economy.

The most tone def thing I have ever seen on A.net, though a mainstream thought for DC insiders.

Compare this expansion in its first four years to 1983-87 or 1992-96 and youll see just how bad 2009-13 has been.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: dtwlax
Posted 2013-05-19 11:34:37 and read 3653 times.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 56):
Quoting scbriml (Reply 37):
How are they making a mockery of them?

As discussed in other threads, it remains a central expectation in the international civil aviation regime that carriers engaged in international flying do so with the primary focus of transporting pax to and from their home countries. Outside of the ME3, SQ, and KLM, this is generally the case -- United, American, Delta, Air France, Qantas, BA, etc. primarily carry people to and from their home countries, although they all certainly have a thriving third-country connector role as well.

Do you have facts to support your statement? You think AF, BA, LH are not relying on connections? Do you think UA, AA, DL are not using their European partners to connect Asia traffic? If not for those connections maybe half of your UA, DL, AA flights would be dropped.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-05-19 15:57:51 and read 3316 times.

Quoting dtwlax (Reply 61):
Do you have facts to support your statement? You think AF, BA, LH are not relying on connections? Do you think UA, AA, DL are not using their European partners to connect Asia traffic? If not for those connections maybe half of your UA, DL, AA flights would be dropped.

Based on the data presented in my response #58 I would say the majority of US international traffic has originated from other countries. EK is just taking a piece of that from everyone, most of which from the European carriers.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: avek00
Posted 2013-05-19 18:15:47 and read 3102 times.

Quoting dtwlax (Reply 61):
Do you have facts to support your statement? You think AF, BA, LH are not relying on connections? Do you think UA, AA, DL are not using their European partners to connect Asia traffic? If not for those connections maybe half of your UA, DL, AA flights would be dropped.

1. The facts to support my statement are discoverable with a modicum of research.

2. I don't think anything along the lines of what you've stated. Of course major global airlines run a thriving business connecting pax through their hubs to third countries -- they would be foolish not to. However, it's also true that most international air carriers continue to abide by a fundamental predicate notion for granting air rights in the first place -- when viewed in the aggregate, a majority (at least 50%) of their international traffic is destined to, or heading from, their home market.

Delta and United are primarily taking people to and from the United States. Air Canada is primarily taking people to and from Canada. Air France is primarily taking people to and from France (KLM is an exception, but a largely nonthreatening one). Lufthansa is primarily taking people to and from Germany, and ditto for each of its operating subsidiaries in the countries where they are based. British Airways primarily takes people to the UK, and ditto for Iberia and Spain, JAL and ANA in Japan, and so on.

By contrast, Emirates is NOT primarily engaged in transporting people to and from the UAE, and ditto for Etihad. Qatar Airways is NOT primarily engaged in transporting people to and from Qatar. Why should the Germans, for example, sign an open skies deal with the UAE when UAE carriers aren't primarily focused on actually bringing Emiratis to Germany or Germans to Dubai and Abu Dhab?

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: KD5MDK
Posted 2013-05-19 20:12:39 and read 2940 times.

It seems to be that EK will completely reshape American aviation soon when it starts adding a JFK tag on to its LHR, CGD and FRA flights.

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: AirIndia
Posted 2013-05-19 20:33:26 and read 2872 times.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 63):
Delta and United are primarily taking people to and from the United States. Air Canada is primarily taking people to and from Canada. Air France is primarily taking people to and from France (KLM is an exception, but a largely nonthreatening one). Lufthansa is primarily taking people to and from Germany, and ditto for each of its operating subsidiaries in the countries where they are based. British Airways primarily takes people to the UK, and ditto for Iberia and Spain, JAL and ANA in Japan, and so on.

By this logic, India and China should have the worlds largest airlines because they have too many of their own to transport across the world. And EK, SQ, QR should shut shop.   

Topic: RE: Emirates To Reshape American Aviation
Username: ASA
Posted 2013-05-20 09:49:35 and read 2351 times.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 63):
1. The facts to support my statement are discoverable with a modicum of research.
Quoting avek00 (Reply 63):
By contrast, Emirates is NOT primarily engaged in transporting people to and from the UAE, and ditto for Etihad. Qatar Airways is NOT primarily engaged in transporting people to and from Qatar. Why should the Germans, for example, sign an open skies deal with the UAE when UAE carriers aren't primarily focused on actually bringing Emiratis to Germany or Germans to Dubai and Abu Dhab?

Let's just compare the connecting vs originating traffic for these airlines? Transfer vs O&D in the hubs?

What about Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific? Where would they stand you think?


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