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Topic: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-05-17 11:44:14 and read 7402 times.

In the first month of operation - April 2013 - Manston Airport in Kent, UK generated 3.129 passengers for the new KLM service AMS-MSE-AMS.

KLM launched this service on April 2, operating an 80-seat Fokker 70 twice daily.

Based on UK CAA statistics for April 2013, KLM carried on average 28 passengers per sector.

Considering that no other airline has succesfully maintained scheduled passenger operations from Manston airport, it will be interesting to watch how this route develops and whether KLM is able to succeed where others failed.

Does anyone know what FlyBe and EUjet carried on routes from Manston?

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...ovisional_International_Routes.pdf

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2013-05-17 11:49:42 and read 7373 times.

I flew MSE-AMS in April and thoroughly enjoyed it. While the average is clearly the most important, it was probably around 80% full.

Quoting factsonly (Thread starter):
Does anyone know what FlyBe and EUjet carried on routes from Manston?

Sheep?   

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-05-17 11:52:45 and read 7329 times.

Interesting to watch, not much can be deduced from one month of operation mind.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: Vasu
Posted 2013-05-17 12:18:23 and read 7181 times.

Are most of the passengers connecting to LH or flying O&D from MSE to AMS?

I can't imagine too many people are connecting for intra-EU flights, with LGW and its cheaper, direct options not a million miles away...

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: LJ
Posted 2013-05-18 13:23:15 and read 5233 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 2):
Interesting to watch, not much can be deduced from one month of operation mind.

Fortunately KL is much more patient than FlyBe was with Norwich - Den Helder. Then again, KL may have more forward bookings for the coming months.

Quoting Vasu (Reply 3):
I can't imagine too many people are connecting for intra-EU flights, with LGW and its cheaper, direct options not a million miles away...

Why not? If the price is right..

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-05-18 13:45:19 and read 5172 times.

Just found the CAA data for EUjet in April 2005, same month as KLM in 2013.

In April 2005 EU Jet carried 2.545 pax. MSE-AMS-MSE.

By July 2005 this number had fallen to just 1.540 pax. (a little unexpected for a peak season month.)

Can anyone remember what frequency EUjet operated their Fokker 100s?

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: by738
Posted 2013-05-18 15:45:48 and read 4917 times.

Looks like KL are doing something right then. I expect this route to slowly grow. Its only KL's fault if it doesnt work (ie incorrect pre route research, fares, timings, connections, advertising)

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: STYLO777
Posted 2013-05-19 00:39:40 and read 4664 times.

its great to see KL having so many destinations in UK; however, with a DH8/ATR72 style prop those operations would be more successful (in regards to fuel economics).

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2013-05-19 01:20:39 and read 4536 times.

Quoting by738 (Reply 6):
its great to see KL having so many destinations in UK; however, with a DH8/ATR72 style prop those operations would be more successful (in regards to fuel economics).

With loads like this, an EMB110 would be perfect.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2013-05-19 01:34:40 and read 4481 times.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 2):
not much can be deduced from one month of operation mind.

Absolutely. And it seems somewhat disingenuous to infer such given the newness of the route with WA.

Incidentally, it took over 50 minutes to fly the 161 miles (as the crow flies) due to holding over the North Sea.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2013-05-19 01:42:53 and read 4456 times.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 9):
Absolutely. And it seems somewhat disingenuous to infer such given the newness of the route with WA.

KLM also had half miles offer for redemptions on the route from anywhere in Europe also.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2013-05-19 01:48:53 and read 4431 times.

Quoting by738 (Reply 6):
Looks like KL are doing something right then. I

Considering the strength of the KLM network and brand awareness globally, I'm quite surprised how poorly the route has performed in comparison to EU Jet, an unknown carrier flying from an unknown airport.

Whilst I agree that first month is not a fair comparison, unless the yields are stellar or the route is underwritten by the regional government, this route will not survive.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: KL577
Posted 2013-05-19 01:56:13 and read 4399 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 11):
Considering the strength of the KLM network and brand awareness globally, I'm quite surprised how poorly the route has performed in comparison to EU Jet, an unknown carrier flying from an unknown airport.

Load factors are light in the first months operation of on any new service, on any airline, between any city pair. It takes time to build a position in a new market. Better to revisit this item in a year or so.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2013-05-19 01:58:19 and read 4395 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 11):
agree that first month is not a fair comparison, unless the yields are stellar or the route is underwritten by the regional government, this route will not survive.

Agreed. And it'll certainly be interesting to see what materialises.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2013-05-19 02:30:19 and read 4333 times.

Quoting KL577 (Reply 12):
Load factors are light in the first months operation of on any new service, on any airline, between any city pair. It takes time to build a position in a new market. Better to revisit this item in a year or so.

It is very hard to build a route to an airport with no awareness amongst the local population. KLM have an ability to survive in tiny UK regional airports like Teesside, but are there for decades. I just don't see this one working - their latest new UK regional airports have not worked - Liverpool for example.

I still don't understand why KL will try routes like Manston, yet not try destinations like Dublin. They know their EI feed already. They can see the amount of dutch people on the route. They know they can capture some O&D - yet they ignore it. Perhaps the CASM and frequency that EI provides is stellar. However with EI now using that frequency to poach the Dutch onto EI long haul, is this biting KLM back?

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-05-19 03:11:29 and read 4231 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 14):
I still don't understand why KL will try routes like Manston, yet not try destinations like Dublin. They know their EI feed already. They can see the amount of dutch people on the route. They know they can capture some O&D - yet they ignore it. Perhaps the CASM and frequency that EI provides is stellar. However with EI now using that frequency to poach the Dutch onto EI long haul, is this biting KLM back?

As you know KLM has not operated to Ireland since the days of Shannon stop-overs on Transatlantic routes. The codeshare with EI is now over a decade old and has served KLM well at little/no cost.

KLM was the largest long-haul transfer operator in Dublin until the arrival of EK. Today KLM is struggling to draw traffic to the AMS hub with EK & EY picking up a lot of long-haul traffic from Ireland. Not the time to launch competing KL metal operated service from/to DUB, when yields will be on a downward slope. Better stick with your EI codeshare, it is the lowest cost solution to maintain a long-haul presence in Ireland. Remember that the EI/KL codeshare from DUB & ORK only applies for non-European destinations.

It seems that KLM selects destinations like Manston, Alesund, Aalborg, Kristiansand, Linkoping, Fukuoka, Kilimanjaro, Chengdu, Xiamen, Hangzhou and as a result of a clear strategy. The airline likes to be the (near) sole (Long-Haul) operator at these airports. This way KLM stays out of direct competition with EK, EY and other strong competitors and may maintain a higher unit revenue.

But the tactic fails at times, when the market changes. Liverpool suffered as (1) Manchester is so close, while (2) easyJet went for direction competition on both the LPL and MAN routes killing O&D yields. This will not happen at MSE.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: KL577
Posted 2013-05-19 03:25:08 and read 4194 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 14):
I still don't understand why KL will try routes like Manston, yet not try destinations like Dublin. They know their EI feed already.

KLM's focus is to open up new under-served destinations with little direct competition. Fukuoka, Xian, Hanzhou, Alesund, Aalborg etc. The likelihood of a flight being profitable in such markets is way larger than a flight that competes head-to-head with an other airline.

As for Dublin: the majority of long-haul pax travel to the US, few people would be interested in backtracking to AMS. As for Manston: EUjet lacked a smooth interlining or transfer options at AMS. I believe that disposable income in the greater Kent region is one of the largest in the UK. These people spend their money on long-haul travel, that's what KLM is after. Time will prove whether they made the right decision.....

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: jumpjets
Posted 2013-05-19 03:25:28 and read 4194 times.

Quoting by738 (Reply 6):
Looks like KL are doing something right then.

KL have greater financial resources allowing a route time to mature and grow before deciding whether to continue or to axe a new route, whereas EUJet were probably just hemorrhaging money on such low loads and couldn't afford the short term losses.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: MHG
Posted 2013-05-19 03:35:01 and read 4167 times.

Quoting KL577 (Reply 12):
Load factors are light in the first months operation of on any new service, on any airline, between any city pair. It takes time to build a position in a new market. Better to revisit this item in a year or so.

Correct and KL certainly is aware of it.
They will also be aware that building a presence in a "remote area" (that Kent is in terms of commercial aviation) will take longer than usual.
A load factor of 35% in the first month for sure is on target.
We just need to wait and see where (and if) KL will draw the line eventually.
I am as well a bit sceptical given the relatively low population density in that area.
Don´t have any idea how much "wealthyness" is located in the area, though.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 14):
I just don't see this one working - their latest new UK regional airports have not worked - Liverpool for example.

I still don't understand why KL will try routes like Manston, yet not try destinations like Dublin. They know their EI feed already. They can see the amount of dutch people on the route. They know they can capture some O&D - yet they ignore it. Perhaps the CASM and frequency that EI provides is stellar. However with EI now using that frequency to poach the Dutch onto EI long haul, is this biting KLM back?

Take note that KL was facing competition at LPL (LCC´s in particular and MAN not too far away) where at MSE they have it - almost - all to themselves ...
("almost" because Kent locals will continue to consider LGW for various reasons)
DUB-AMS is served with code shares through EI very well and most likely cheaper than with KL´s own metal.
KLM certainly is not so much after local traffic MSE-AMS-MSE because there simply is too little.
Connex traffic is what they´re after !

[Edited 2013-05-19 03:37:14]

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: VV701
Posted 2013-05-19 06:08:08 and read 3938 times.

A significant problem for any Manston Airport (MSE) commercial operation is the geographic size of its catchment area as it is situated on the very northeast corner of Kent. North of MSE the coast runs virtually due west-east. East of the airport it runs virtually north-south. So the catchment area is geographically limited to a southwest quartile while the other three quartiles are the Thames Estuary and the English Channel. So, Ignoring population density, this reduces the catchment area to one quarter of that of an inland airport.

Another problem (as previously indicated) is the location of LGW. It is an 82 mile drive from Manston with the Kent County Town of Maidstone on the direct route between the two airports being very slightly nearer to Gatwick.

However none of this will be news to KL who are sure to have studied all of these elements in detail. I guess that what they are primarily looking for is transfer traffic for the numerous important long haul destinations served from AMS but not LGW. Here the alternative routing would be through LHR. It is a 99 mile drive from MSE. But even here there must be some question as to whether any cost savings by travelling through AMS will be seen as worthwhile compared to the time savings of a direct flight from LHR.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: by738
Posted 2013-05-19 07:10:40 and read 3829 times.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 17):

What I was alluding to was that KL have carried more in their first month than others did

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: richcandy
Posted 2013-05-19 12:50:08 and read 3528 times.

Hi

I really hope this route works for them, but I guess only time will tell.

I am flying it in a few weeks as I need to get from Stuttgart to Whitstable. The choice was either a direct flight to Gatwick followed by a train trip into London and the a 90min trip by train down to Whitstable. (taxi fare From LGW is around £70). Or a slightly more expensive flight from Stuttgart via AMS to Manston and then a cheaper taxi journey.

There are lots of expensive homes on the north kent coast and in Canterbury. However as someone pointed out to me before people have sort of got used to the long trip to LGW or LHR. And as you have direct flights to lots of places from there it might be difficult to convince passengers to travel via AMS.

Alex

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: MHG
Posted 2013-05-19 14:02:11 and read 3418 times.

Quoting richcandy (Reply 21):
And as you have direct flights to lots of places from there it might be difficult to convince passengers to travel via AMS.

You are principly right - but ...
Another factor is added convenience to fly from an airport that´s in no way congested/crowded.
This is certainly a selling point.
No dragging of baggage from far away parking lots and long waiting lines at check-in/security and for sure a much more "personal" approach of staff at MSE.
So, the soft part of the offer is for sure appealing to wealthier passengers. And changing flights in AMS is a rather relaxed affair compared to driving up to LGW and going through the hassles there.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: factsonly
Posted 2013-05-20 00:35:51 and read 3135 times.

Well, with the latest news of Darwin Airline opening CBG-AMS-CBG the UK-AMS-UK market will consist of 27 city pairs.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: MHG
Posted 2013-05-20 01:10:53 and read 3026 times.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 23):
Well, with the latest news of Darwin Airline opening CBG-AMS-CBG the UK-AMS-UK market will consist of 27 city pairs.

Impressive !
That leaves probably very few regions in the UK uncovered.
I suspect mainly those destinations that have very local demand like Orkneys / Shetlands / Highlands / IOM.
All other relevant ones seem to be covered by now ...

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2013-05-20 02:56:27 and read 2945 times.

Quoting MHG (Reply 24):
All other relevant ones seem to be covered by now ...

Oxford
Holyhead
Coventry
Dundee
Derry

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: acelanzarote
Posted 2013-05-20 04:22:35 and read 2800 times.

Brother in law drove Folkestone-LGW last week to fly to us, took 2 1/2 hours on the M20/26/25 due roadworks and this outside rush hour...so although LGW is close allowance always needs to be made for traffic issuies getting there...
Anyway hope MSE works, just wish TRA would allow through (code share with KLM) bookings ACE-AMS-MSE and I would give it a go to...

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2013-05-20 04:48:01 and read 2693 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 25):
Oxford
Holyhead
Coventry
Dundee
Derry

Reminds me that CVT and DSA used to be served too.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: abrown532
Posted 2013-05-20 05:50:25 and read 2541 times.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 23):
the UK-AMS-UK market will consist of 27 city pairs.

KLM don't operate to BFS, or BHD...I bloody with they did though!

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: FlyingHollander
Posted 2013-05-20 06:05:50 and read 2516 times.

Quoting abrown532 (Reply 28):
KLM don't operate to BFS, or BHD...I bloody with they did though!

The map shows ALL flights between the Netherlands and the UK, not only KL flights.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: abrown532
Posted 2013-05-20 06:07:31 and read 2505 times.

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 29):
The map shows ALL flights between the Netherlands and the UK, not only KL flights.

I stand Corrected!   

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-05-20 06:11:06 and read 2505 times.

Difficult to compare EU Jet figures with KLM. EU Jet was literally buying load factor with cheap ticket, IIRC. KLM simply keeps to its standard pricing for UK destinations.

Quoting abrown532 (Reply 28):
KLM don't operate to BFS, or BHD...I bloody with they did though!

Has the situation re BHD been clarified for good by now? In March, KLM denied rumours posted here (and on other forums) that they would begin an AMS service with effect winter schedule.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: LJ
Posted 2013-05-20 06:24:06 and read 2456 times.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 23):
Well, with the latest news of Darwin Airline opening CBG-AMS-CBG the UK-AMS-UK market will consist of 27 city pairs.

Thus someone is trying gain?

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: avion660
Posted 2013-05-20 11:56:13 and read 2144 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 25):
Oxford
Holyhead
Coventry
Dundee
Derry

Holyhead, yes, it's a bit isolated although at a pinch you could include DUB as an alternative)
I'll believe Oxford too: Oxford - LHR could be an hour if traffic is light, but probably won't be.
Dundee - EDI is also about an hour.
Derry - BFS is about an hour and 20mins,
but
CVT - BHX is only 15 miles/ 25 mins!

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2013-05-20 12:46:52 and read 1999 times.

Quoting avion660 (Reply 33):
I'll believe Oxford too: Oxford - LHR could be an hour if traffic is light, but probably won't be.

Oxford has huge potential for the proper airline with hub feed from the other end.

KL / EI / AF / LH in that order

With Flybe for the domestic runs.

For the Heathrow run, you need to leave yourself far longer than one hour.


[quote=avion660,reply=33

Dundee - EDI is also about an hour.
Derry - BFS is about an hour and 20mins,
CVT - BHX is only 15 miles/ 25 mins![/quote]

Not a hope in these being served my opinion.

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2013-05-20 12:51:50 and read 1977 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 34):
Oxford has huge potential for the proper airline with hub feed from the other end.

Yep, and OXF itself certainly desires AMS, saying "Top destination by category demand of over 65,000 pax (30 min catchment) requiring convenient daily morning/evening shuttle service or timed connections to onward destinations via Schiphol hub services." Source: http://www.therouteshop.com/london-oxford-airport/

Of course, it strikes me that it'd need to be considerably more publicised than Minoan on its OXF-EDI and -DUB services, and really emphasise the benefits of flying from their local airport: little distance to drive, minimal dwell time (turn up 20-30 minutes before departure?!), free (?) car parking, hardly any distance to walk, far more relaxing, much more enjoyable, etc., etc.

[Edited 2013-05-20 13:00:16]

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-05-20 13:00:07 and read 1955 times.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 35):
Yep, and OXF itself certainly desires AMS, saying "Top destination by category demand of over 65,000 pax (30 min catchment) requiring convenient daily morning/evening shuttle service or timed connections to onward destinations via Schiphol hub services." Source: http://www.therouteshop.com/london-o...port/

They have been trying to attract a KLM service for a few years now - I believe the terminal set-up is the problem. OXF would be a gold mine for them - even the student traffic is very high yielding let alone all the business traffic.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: bestwestern
Posted 2013-05-20 14:15:34 and read 1822 times.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 35):
little distance to drive, minimal dwell time (turn up 20-30 minutes before departure?!), free (?) car parking, hardly any distance to walk, far more relaxing, much more enjoyable, etc., etc.

If they were to follow the LCY concept of 30 minute check-in, a saving of two hours over Heathrow could easily be achieved....


Heathrow

office- Bus station (15 mins) - Wait (15 mins) - bus to heathrow (1hr) - walk to check in (15 mins) - min check in (1hr)

(total 2hrs 45)

Oxford

office - Airport (15 mins) - walk to check in (1 min) - min check in (30 mins)

(Total 46 mins)


The return would be similar...

Oxford

Aircraft Landing exit runway to gate (1 min) Offload (5 mins) Walk and wait for Baggage (10 Mins) Walk to taxi (1 min) airport to home (15 mins)

(Total 32 mins)


Heathrow

Aircraft Landing exit runway to gate (10 min) Offload (10 mins) Immigration, Walk and wait for Baggage (30 Mins) Walk to bus (15 min) Wait bus, Airport to oxford bus station, taxi bus station to home (1hr 30)

(total 2hrs 35 mins)

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: PlymSpotter
Posted 2013-05-20 14:24:41 and read 1787 times.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 37):
If they were to follow the LCY concept of 30 minute check-in, a saving of two hours over Heathrow could easily be achieved....

15 minutes for hand baggage, 20 for checked baggage.


Dan  

Topic: RE: Manston Generates A 35% Loadfactor For KL
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-05-20 14:33:53 and read 1755 times.

Indeed. When I still had the choice between Duesseldorf International (aka DUS) and Duesseldorf Express (aka MGL), I flew from MGL whenever possible. Easy access, cheap/free parking, 100m from car to terminal, quick check-in, no lines at security, no 1 mile trek through airports-turned-shopping-malls to the gate, no taxiing for 30 mintues before take-off etc. etc.

Quite honestly, when having to go to Oxfordshire I would be happy to drop a few bucks extra to avoid LHR even if it meant having to make a connection at AMS


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