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Topic: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: LuisKMIA
Posted 2013-05-17 05:39:17 and read 13973 times.

I know there are a lot of FR horror stories in the press and sometimes in our forum. I live in the U.S. and have never flown on FR.

I'm a bit of a skeptic because despite the passenger complaints and this latest incident, FR continues to do very well. I just don't see a company that treats its employees and customers in such a manner surviving.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...or-nine-months-a-year-8619897.html

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: shufflemoomin
Posted 2013-05-17 06:14:00 and read 13801 times.

It's been said before and I'll say it again, they knew the conditions up front and still took the job. Yes, it's crap of Ryanair to treat employees like this but there's no one holding a gun to their head to take or stay in these jobs.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: JimJupiter
Posted 2013-05-17 06:17:02 and read 13769 times.

That's cynical, in a situation where mass unemployment has become a normal part of the economic and social system...

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-05-17 06:31:28 and read 13688 times.

Quoting LuisKMIA (Thread starter):
FR continues to do very well. I just don't see a company that treats its employees and customers in such a manner surviving.

Go see the EK no-bonus thread if you want a differing opinion.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: garpd
Posted 2013-05-17 06:44:46 and read 13571 times.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 1):
It's been said before and I'll say it again, they knew the conditions up front and still took the job. Yes, it's crap of Ryanair to treat employees like this but there's no one holding a gun to their head to take or stay in these jobs.

Easy for you to say. People need jobs. They need to pay bills, feed themselves and their children.
They have taxes to pay.

There are not enough jobs to go about. Demand is that high, sometimes 1400 people will apply for 2 or 3 positions in a respectable company. Companies know this and are taking the opportunity to screw their employees for as much work with as little pay as possible.

To simply dismiss a grievance like you have done is simply wrong. It is cold, heartless and immoral. There are laws to protect employees. If this woman was mistreated and it is found FR contravened working law, they must be called to make amends.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: LuisKMIA
Posted 2013-05-17 06:59:13 and read 13499 times.

I can see where a terrible economy can force people to settle for a bad job, but I thought Europe had more protections, compared to the U.S.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2013-05-17 07:17:29 and read 13399 times.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 1):
It's been said before and I'll say it again, they knew the conditions up front and still took the job. Yes, it's crap of Ryanair to treat employees like this but there's no one holding a gun to their head to take or stay in these jobs.

That's absolutely true, and they have no problem at all recruiting.

I have known several FR crew personally down the years, and the overall opinion I've received directly from them is that it's not great, but you can make a decent living if you're prepared to work damn hard. It's quite possible that it's a bit of a lottery in terms of where you're based etc, but as usual there's always two sides to every story.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: shuttle9juliet
Posted 2013-05-17 07:17:40 and read 13401 times.

I think Michael O Leary used to be clever and a good businessman, but the way he speaks about his staff and customers is some what awful and downright degrading

He seems to be in some sort of bubble and in any interview just waffles on about cheap fares on Ryanair.
God forbid anything happens at Ryanair safety wise either.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2013-05-17 07:32:18 and read 13307 times.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 7):
He seems to be in some sort of bubble and in any interview just waffles on about cheap fares on Ryanair.

Is that really so surprising? Personally I'm not shocked that he mainly talks about low fares and sells the product.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 7):
God forbid anything happens at Ryanair safety wise either.

I think if there was a fatal, then we've already reached a stage where their safety record has been excellent for so long that it would not deal the business a mortal blow. I think most people are realists, and understand that freak air accidents might occur anywhere, anytime - though massively rare. Of course the gutter press would have a field day, but who gives a sod about them?

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2013-05-17 07:52:13 and read 13204 times.

I loved this part of the article...."Only paid her for the hours that she was actually "in the air". She was not paid for pre-flight briefings, turnaround time between flights, sales meetings and time on the ground due to delays and flight cancellations."

WHAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!! (sound of baby crying). Poor baby. I haven't been paid for that for 26 years...and I have never complained. I.hate to break it to you, part of the job, which you knew when you got hired. No sympathy here.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: FCAFLYBOY
Posted 2013-05-17 07:53:44 and read 13206 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 4):
Easy for you to say. People need jobs. They need to pay bills, feed themselves and their children.
They have taxes to pay.

There are not enough jobs to go about. Demand is that high, sometimes 1400 people will apply for 2 or 3 positions in a respectable company. Companies know this and are taking the opportunity to screw their employees for as much work with as little pay as possible.

To simply dismiss a grievance like you have done is simply wrong. It is cold, heartless and immoral. There are laws to protect employees. If this woman was mistreated and it is found FR contravened working law, they must be called to make amends.

I'm sorry I totally disagree. Cabin Crew is not an office job or sweeping the streets, you do not fall into working as crew becuase you need to pay the bills (trust me, it doesnt pay great, but does pay). It's a career or lifestyle choice, and Ryanair and t's associated agencies make that SUPER clear on application. If you are then employed directly by FR after a probational period, you can earn good money at FR - commission and pay can be better than BA/VS/US for sure.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-05-17 08:10:37 and read 13103 times.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 1):
Yes, it's crap of Ryanair to treat employees like this but there's no one holding a gun to their head to take or stay in these jobs.

Which is why we have unions and labor laws to reign in the worst of employer abuses. You can't just say "I'll treat my employees anyway I'd like because another hungry mouth will quickly replace them if they quit."

On that note, I don't understand the clause disallowing a second job during the FA's three month forced leave without pay every year.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: doug_Or
Posted 2013-05-17 08:13:24 and read 13079 times.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 9):
WHAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!! (sound of baby crying). Poor baby. I haven't been paid for that for 26 years...and I have never complained. I.hate to break it to you, part of the job, which you knew when you got hired. No sympathy here.

This needs to be explained to people outside of the industry (like the readers of the article and the members of parliament) so they understand the relation between actual hours worked and total compensation, though.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: EWRCabincrew
Posted 2013-05-17 08:25:44 and read 12974 times.

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 12):
This needs to be explained to people outside of the industry (like the readers of the article and the members of parliament) so they understand the relation between actual hours worked and total compensation, though.

In the article, it was not implied as to what information was given to Parliament. A huge bias in the reporting. Aviation industry or not, you as the potential employee must consider the pros and cons of any given job. She was a willing applicant who accepted the employment under the conditions Ryanair set forth. She signed on the dotted line and went to work. She was not coerced, held against her will or made to endure severe working conditions. She worked as crew for an airline and give or take rules here and there, they are all same, really. As I like to say, same circus, different tent.

Its funny how there are no links to Ryanair's work rules/contract between the airline and crew so the reader can be given the entire story on "conditions" and pay issues. I have more of an issue with the reporter then the person in the article. How about give us the full story and not just what makes for a good sell in print.

[Edited 2013-05-17 08:30:48]

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: aerdingus
Posted 2013-05-17 09:23:04 and read 12709 times.

I am FR crew & I agree with most of the posts here. Unless these conditions weren't made clear to her in her contract, as they were in mine, then you know what you're getting into. Also anyone who falls for the "See the World" blurb that comes on adverts for the job needs to take that with a pinch of salt...

I took this job because I needed it, & I'm also interested in aviation.

The unpaid leave is stipulated in the contract. I find it hard to believe she couldn't get another job, or claim Social Welfare from the Irish government like me & my friends did (as entitled to do so, when paying Irish taxes)

The costs were stipulated in the contract. It's hard in the first year, but it's no big surprise.

Don't a lot of airlines only pay when you're in the air? S****y, but again was in the contract.

Standby does irritate me sometimes but at least you get some free time....

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: 1stfl94
Posted 2013-05-17 10:02:08 and read 12544 times.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 9):

I loved this part of the article...."Only paid her for the hours that she was actually "in the air". She was not paid for pre-flight briefings, turnaround time between flights, sales meetings and time on the ground due to delays and flight cancellations."

WHAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!! (sound of baby crying). Poor baby. I haven't been paid for that for 26 years...and I have never complained. I.hate to break it to you, part of the job, which you knew when you got hired. No sympathy here.

Not the same at all airlines though, for example BA will pay your basic rate from checking in for a flight to when you check out at the end of the trip, this is Mixed Fleet as well.

Some of her complaints are well known about FR, such as having to pay for your uniform and training. Personally, I know it's an employers market out there but there other airlines hiring she wants to be cabin crew and other less exploitative jobs about.

If the cabin crew are employed by an agency though, will anyone actually be working for Ryanair in a few years??

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: ACEregular
Posted 2013-05-17 11:38:38 and read 11592 times.

"Don't a lot of airlines only pay when you're in the air? S****y, but again was in the contract"

No, not all. for the three airlines I have worked I have always been paid from check-in to check out. That is hourly from -90 mins to departure and +60 minutes after arrival. Meetings and training also accrue ground duties pay. As do airport standby's. Home standby's do not accrue any pay unless called for a duty. Yes it may be clear under the terms of the contract, but perhaps seeing how hard done by she was compared to other airlines, she decided to call this to question, hence going all the way to parliament.

I have attended an assessment day for Ryanair at STN and yes everytime they covered a point they would always say "if this is not for you, then you are not for us and you are free to go" That line was trotted out frequently over the course of about five hours, and in dribs and drabs, people did get up and leave. I stuck it out to the very end, but on reflection decided it was not for me. I can't understand how an airline can not simply tell you before you pack your bags and head for Hahn where in the world they intend on basing you, its just wrong. I think its from that point on they do indeed exert a certain subliminal control. That is what did not sit well with me. Not bashing, just a personal opinion. Plenty have taken the opportunity and love it, it's just "got to be for you"

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: ORDJOE
Posted 2013-05-17 11:42:16 and read 11522 times.

While I do agree she knew what she was getting into and that company is notorious for treating their employees terribly, bu t all this race to the bottom when treating employees in any field that is going on right now is troubling.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: frmrcapcadet
Posted 2013-05-17 12:28:03 and read 10984 times.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 9):
I loved this part of the article...."Only paid her for the hours that she was actually "in the air". She was not paid for pre-flight briefings, turnaround time between flights, sales meetings and time on the ground due to delays and flight cancellations."

Back when wages and benefits were high this was part of it all, and employees did not complain. Employers need to pay workers for the number of hours they control their lives. If they want someone X number of hours they need to pay for that. Not X - 10 or whatever. Europe/Great Britain will be passing laws in that direction, and this testimony may be a step toward that.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
On that note, I don't understand the clause disallowing a second job during the FA's three month forced leave without pay every year.

Again, companies for the most part need to pay for the hours they control. I can see pilots being required to report for work rested and able to function well - but this needs to relate to requirements for the actual on the job hours. Low paid US workers at the crappier jobs are increasingly only being hired for about 20 hours a week, and required to be available for any 20 hours employers want. Again cries out for changes in labor laws.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: AADC10
Posted 2013-05-17 15:11:38 and read 9475 times.

The conditions complained about on Ryanair do not seem to be much different than those on other airlines. The only point that I have not heard of is being forced to take three months off during the slow season but not allowed to get another job during that period. Other than that, many of the conditions are similar to other reserve flight attendants.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: AirlineCritic
Posted 2013-05-17 23:31:32 and read 7209 times.

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 14):
The unpaid leave is stipulated in the contract. I find it hard to believe she couldn't get another job, or claim Social Welfare from the Irish government like me & my friends did (as entitled to do so, when paying Irish taxes)

Thanks for your post. Can I ask if the contract requires you to not take another job during the unpaid leave? Why?

(FWIW, I believe in people's ability and right to choose who they want to work for. As long as it is specified in the contracts clearly. However, there are limits. At least us northern Europeans tend to think that some basic protections should apply. For me the story about the taxi ride and the unpaid leave with not being able to work for others is going beyond the limit. Just my opinion, of course.)

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: AirPacific747
Posted 2013-05-18 00:09:13 and read 7013 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 4):

I agree. A lot of people are unemployed at the moment. This example just shows how some employers take advantage of this situation.

The unpaid leave scheme is the same for pilots in low cost airlines. Although not three months, but only one month a year in the company I work for.

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 14):
claim Social Welfare from the Irish government like me & my friends did

Probably because there is no pride in doing so. Also, in that way, Ryanair gets indirect subsidies from the government which isn't fair.

[Edited 2013-05-18 00:14:20]

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: IndianicWorld
Posted 2013-05-18 00:35:25 and read 6869 times.

The higher the overheads, the less low fares can be offered, equating to reduced demand for flying which will effect tourism.

The only way LCC's can survive is to have a low cost structure. If they choose to run their business this way, so be it. If people sign up to the contractual terms and then complain that they don't like it, that's there own fault for agreeing to join in the first place. It's a choice to make.

One thing that is becoming very clear these days is that people are getting as greedy as they think business owners are, maybe even moreso. The economy falls through the floor and then you have unions and staff wanting more and more, all at a time that there's nothing to give. Somethings got to give.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: kiwirob
Posted 2013-05-18 00:56:25 and read 6721 times.

Quoting garpd (Reply 4):
They have taxes to pay.

Only if they have an income.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: bennett123
Posted 2013-05-18 01:02:44 and read 6699 times.

Another point about the unpaid leave.

To claim benefits in the UK, you have to be available for work. These people are not available for work.

Furthermore, my understanding is that they are working for an Irish company, but many are not Irish citizens. So, would they be eligible.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: jc2354
Posted 2013-05-18 02:19:37 and read 6566 times.

There are many videos at youtube about Ryanair. This is one of the best, I think. By undercover reporters for the program "Dispatches: Ryanair: Caught Napping" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi-x_UgTTOQ

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: asctty
Posted 2013-05-18 02:27:14 and read 6479 times.

As I read the article, the woman complaining wasn't working directly for FR. She was working via an agency which imposed it's condition of employment.
That said, it can come of no surprise that FR lay off staff during the low season. If the aircraft are parked up in winter, they do not need a crew.
I fly regularly on FR for business. Their business model cannot be far off the best otherwise they would not be so successful. Indeed if you look at the number on PAX complaints versus numbers carried, then they must be doing something right.
The cabin crew I have encountered are mainly enthusiastic, except when pushing the fragrance and gift trolley, selling lottery tickets or smokeless cigarettes. Who wouldn't be?
The lady complaining in the press obviously didn't fit the team model. In fact I don't think she would fit ant any airline team model that I have experienced!

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: asctty
Posted 2013-05-18 02:59:51 and read 6332 times.

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 25):
There are many videos at youtube about Ryanair. This is one of the best, I think. By undercover reporters for the program "Dispatches: Ryanair: Caught Napping" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi-x_UgTTOQ

Very old news article and video. Most of the security issues have been passed to the ground staff since. I have noticed recently though that Ryanair flight crew do not conduct a PAX head count which is worrying.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: 1stfl94
Posted 2013-05-18 03:46:52 and read 6027 times.

Quoting asctty (Reply 26):
The lady complaining in the press obviously didn't fit the team model. In fact I don't think she would fit ant any airline team model that I have experienced!

Bit harsh to judge someone from a single article! I think she does have a point about the unpaid leave, a lot of crew have got second jobs so not sure why Crewlink would restrict someone from taking paid work during unpaid leave

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: airtrainer
Posted 2013-05-18 04:01:58 and read 5915 times.

I have a strong feeling that this story wouldn't make the news had she been complaining about any other airline...

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: BOEING77W
Posted 2013-05-18 04:33:20 and read 5695 times.

How do you feel about this one? Pretty accurate reporting.

You thought Ryanair's attendants had it bad, wait till you hear about their pilots

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: 1stfl94
Posted 2013-05-18 04:40:54 and read 5639 times.

Quoting airtrainer (Reply 29):

I have a strong feeling that this story wouldn't make the news had she been complaining about any other airline...

If it was another airline people would write her off as just complaining but given Ryanair's attitude to it's customers would you expect things to any better for the employees?

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: RussianJet
Posted 2013-05-18 06:01:54 and read 5215 times.

Quoting BOEING77W (Reply 30):
How do you feel about this one? Pretty accurate reporting.

You thought Ryanair's attendants had it bad, wait till you hear about their pilots

The fact is that Ryanair pilots operated according to the legal requirements. If those are inadequate, they need addressing on that basis, not just by the company. The Ryanair pilots I have seen and known for years earn very good money, and although they work very hard, seem ok with that.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: anfromme
Posted 2013-05-18 07:37:26 and read 5070 times.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 22):
One thing that is becoming very clear these days is that people are getting as greedy as they think business owners are, maybe even moreso.

I beg your pardon?

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 22):
The economy falls through the floor and then you have unions and staff wanting more and more, all at a time that there's nothing to give.

Unions have much less influence than they did 20 years ago, and because unemployment in Europe is so high, they currently have very little leverage. In any case, FR isn't a unionised company to begin with, nor are they starved for cash and have "nothing to give". They had a few million quid to give to lawyers last year, for instance, to launch a takeover bid for EI that they knew would not happen.
Funny how everybody keeps pointing to how successful FR are and how they're thus obviously doing things right, but if anybody suggests that paying a little more may thus be apt, the refrain changes to "there's nothing to give".

As for paying only for hours in the air, I completely agree with this:

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 18):
Employers need to pay workers for the number of hours they control their lives.

Of course I'll do an extra hour here or there without demanding pay for it - but pre-flight preparations, turning around the plane (and as quickly as FR's staff do - thus helping FR actually support its business modell and thus bottom line) is certainly not some extra work on an ad-hoc basis, it's an integral part of the job, and should thus certainly be paid for by the company (irrespective of whether she is employed directly by FR or by a 3rd party for FR).

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 22):
The only way LCC's can survive is to have a low cost structure. If they choose to run their business this way, so be it.

With that sort of argument you could justify pretty much anything in business - including the conditions you see in textile factories in the far east.
This general attitude evokes memories of the olden days when any discussion about work health & safety was killed off with a response along the lines of "You should be happy to be able to work for us to begin with instead of complaining." Employers are always in a stronger position in these discussions because it's easier for them (particularly in the current climate) to find a replacement for you than for you to find another job.

We (well, our ancestors) have been through all that and the result is that we've got laws to protect employees against being exploited by their employers and to bring some balance into a relationship where one party always has more leverage than the other. (Same reason behind consumer protection laws, for that matter.)

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 22):
If people sign up to the contractual terms and then complain that they don't like it, that's there own fault for agreeing to join in the first place. It's a choice to make.

Except for many people there isn't a choice these days.
And I'm not really talking primarily about FR here - I don't care if it's FR or LH or indeed my local petrol station that's not paying people for the hours they actually work on a regular basis.
There seems a tendency to counter any such complaint by telling people to shut up and be thankful they've got a job to begin with, after all they made a choice to take the job, so it's really their fault. Conveniently, if they hadn't taken the job because of the conditions attached to it, and they end up without a job, you can still blame them for being lazy and unwilling to work.

Quoting asctty (Reply 26):
I fly regularly on FR for business. Their business model cannot be far off the best otherwise they would not be so successful.

Well, they certainly are good at exploiting various loopholes, local subsidies, etc. for their own benefit. In that sense, they of course chose the right business model, I'll give them that.
But given their huge reliance on the subsidies small airports get, combined with their attitude to customer/employee protection, I really do wonder how sustainable their business model really is. Those subsidies are going to run out at some point, and I do believe they are going to have to offer better wages/working conditions five years down the line or they'll have problem hiring. Both in my eyes are significant threats to FR's business model in particular, given their size and prominence.

Quoting asctty (Reply 26):
Indeed if you look at the number on PAX complaints versus numbers carried, then they must be doing something right.

I'd be curious to actually see those statistics but couldn't find them - care to share them?
I'm also not sure how much the pure numbers would be telling you - maybe LCC pax are more prone to filing complaints than others, maybe much less because they're in a "okay, I flew LCC, I'll throw all expectations out of the windows" mode to begin with.
It would make for a fascinating study, in any case.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: aerdingus
Posted 2013-05-18 09:17:31 and read 4941 times.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 20):
Thanks for your post. Can I ask if the contract requires you to not take another job during the unpaid leave? Why?

My contract is at home in DUB & I can't remember 100%. I know that others did take work though, & I got paid Social Welfare every week (maybe easier for me because I'm Irish, & was already claiming before I took the job) for my 3 mths unpaid leave, the minimum unpaid leave was 6 weeks but I wanted to go home so took that amount.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: BOEING77W
Posted 2013-05-18 09:23:39 and read 4915 times.

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 34):

Definitely easier for you being Irish and living in Dublin.

Contractors on Irish contracts, paying Irish tax, living in another EU country run into difficulties when it comes to claims for social welfare. It's not as easy as everyone likes to make out. Well, in my experience anyway!

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: aerdingus
Posted 2013-05-19 05:58:40 and read 4384 times.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 21):
Probably because there is no pride in doing so. Also, in that way, Ryanair gets indirect subsidies from the government which isn't fair.

Pride doesn't really come into the equation when it's something you're entitled to from paying taxes & you don't really know how you're going to pay your rent in the winter. I didn't have that experience because I stayed with my parents but others have.

Quoting BOEING77W (Reply 35):
Definitely easier for you being Irish and living in Dublin.

Contractors on Irish contracts, paying Irish tax, living in another EU country run into difficulties when it comes to claims for social welfare. It's not as easy as everyone likes to make out. Well, in my experience anyway!

I live in GRO  

But yeah I feel bad for non-Irish people looking for their Social Welfare, especially when they ask me how to do it & I don't know what to say, I just went to the local dole office..

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: kanban
Posted 2013-05-19 11:12:51 and read 4160 times.

While many are bashing Ryanair, only one or two caught that she actually worked for a contractor.. a contractor who was the low bid. A contractor who like many other low bid contractors try to find the cheapest labor, or transfer as many costs to the employee as possible.

There is no law that says Ryanair has to hire the most expensive or most socially progressive contractor. So while there are many reasons to bash O'leary, this isn't one of them.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2013-05-19 15:23:13 and read 3964 times.

Quoting kanban (Reply 37):
There is no law that says Ryanair has to hire the most expensive or most socially progressive contractor. So while there are many reasons to bash O'leary, this isn't one of them.

They do however have to hire an agency that obeys UK law.

We have a national minimum wage of £6.31 per hour (£6.19 until April 1st) No ifs, no buts, veryone who is employed and over 21 is entitled to earn this rate per hour, and pro rata for less than an hour. Under 21 its a slightly lower rate.

It is blatantly obvious that you cannot insist on staff reporting for a flight for briefings and boarding, but only pay for flight hours.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: shufflemoomin
Posted 2013-05-19 15:41:38 and read 3939 times.

Quoting kanban (Reply 37):
So while there are many reasons to bash O'leary, this isn't one of them.

Ryanair are still responsible for the contractors they choose to work with. If these people treat employees like this and Ryanair didn't agree, they'd be free to do something about it.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: kanban
Posted 2013-05-19 17:46:06 and read 3823 times.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 39):
Ryanair are still responsible for the contractors they choose to work with. If these people treat employees like this and Ryanair didn't agree, they'd be free to do something about it.

it's a business decision . - . companies are not obligated to embrace every socially progressive idea that is floated.. people fly their planes to get from a to b cheaply and really don't care that employees don't read their contracts before signing. If people wanted airlines that were socially progressive they would have to pay 3 to 4 times the price and you know, I'll bet they couldn't tell the difference.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: opethfan
Posted 2013-05-19 23:43:10 and read 3598 times.

It's almost scary how much power businesses have over the world around them. I've never flown FR and don't read too much about them, but I know their business plan seems to be "if we can cut it or reduce it as much as humanly possible, we'll do it" - including with staff.

And this is all very good for executives and their bank managers (and perhaps the tourists wanting the lowest fares possible) but what are the implications on the greater society regarding paying staff so little that they don't spend enough time with friends or family or can't have a viable social life? What are the medical risks (and therefore costs) associated with working people harder than they're comfortable with? And is it 'right' to do so under the excuse of "if they won't do it, someone else will" or "it's not illegal"?

I'm not suggesting that it's Mr O'Leary's job to be the wealthy grandmother to his staff, but looking at the bigger picture in regards to workers is a sign of a leader who's in for the long-haul and not just for a quick buck. Perhaps things wouldn't seem so bleak if the fuel issue wasn't constantly baring down on us like a dark shadow...

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2013-05-20 01:18:12 and read 3480 times.

Quoting kanban (Reply 40):
it's a business decision . - . companies are not obligated to embrace every socially progressive idea that is floated..

As explained earlier, its not a business decision. UK law states that all employees shall receive a minimum wage for all hours worked. A number of businesses have sneaked round the law by claiming that staff are volunteers interns and such like, but you you couldn't get away with that argument here as they are already employing them during flight hours, plus the pre flight briefings are a mandatory part of the job.

The aggrieved employee doesn't even have to take the case to court themselves, just contact HMRC and they will take action on their behalf.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: aaron747
Posted 2013-05-20 03:09:48 and read 3344 times.

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 18):
Back when wages and benefits were high this was part of it all, and employees did not complain. Employers need to pay workers for the number of hours they control their lives. If they want someone X number of hours they need to pay for that.

It's not that simple. In a lot of places cultural considerations make that kind of black-and-white scheme impossible. In many Asian societies, including Korea and Japan, workers are paid according to their scheduled work. There are often other work-related obligations that go well beyond those hours that may or may not be paid overtime. It is implicitly understood that non-participation will result in not being seen as a team player and will kill chances at promotion. The labor laws in these countries are sufficiently vague around those issues so as not to create any directive expectations for either employer or employees.

Sometimes, that's just the way it is.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: kanban
Posted 2013-05-20 08:11:39 and read 3136 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
As explained earlier,

my last comment was not about a contractor circumventing British law, it was about Ryanair hiring the cheapest contractor.. that is a business decision.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: peterinlisbon
Posted 2013-05-20 11:42:23 and read 2961 times.

So, low wages, hard work and poor terms and conditions... pretty much what you'd expect of Ryanair. For passengers: low prices, poor service and poor terms and conditions. But really 13 pounds an hour is not so bad, albeit they are only paid for the hours in the air. Even so, it probably works out to at least 60 pounds a day and most of the time they are just sitting at the back chatting - there are certainly worse jobs out there, it's nothing to be talking in front of the house of commons about. And on standby days sometimes they have to come in at short notice - ok, well you plan around that. I don't think the company needs to apologise to this woman just for asking her to do her job.

Interesting what they say about the staff getting 50p to spot oversize bags... so that's why they are so enthusiastic about it now, they want their 50p. Makes me think you could probably slip them 5 pounds with your boarding pass not to notice.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: aerdingus
Posted 2013-05-20 16:28:21 and read 2793 times.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
As explained earlier, its not a business decision. UK law states that all employees shall receive a minimum wage for all hours worked.

She receives almost twice this @ 13 GBP an hour no?

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 45):
poor service and poor terms and conditions.

We try to do the best with our onboard service  

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: shufflemoomin
Posted 2013-05-20 16:51:58 and read 2761 times.

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 46):
We try to do the best with our onboard service

If you work for Ryanair, I'd like to say: try harder. I've flown with Ryanair many times because it's the cheapest and most convenient option on the route I flew, but I've never had so many experiences with flight attendants looking at me like crap and not even smiling or responding when I say hello and just generally being stand-offish when dealing with passengers. As I said earlier, no one is forcing you to do to the job, but if you're going to do it, remember that it's not the passenger's fault that your employer treats you like crap.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: Bongodog1964
Posted 2013-05-21 02:06:10 and read 2572 times.

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 46):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
As explained earlier, its not a business decision. UK law states that all employees shall receive a minimum wage for all hours worked.

She receives almost twice this @ 13 GBP an hour no?

But you have to pay for every hour worked, you can't create a hybrid system where some hours are paid and others aren't.
Even averaging out the £13/hr flight pay across the non paid hours might easily end up with an average rate below minimum wage as much of FR's flying is short routes.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: nclmedic
Posted 2013-05-21 02:33:42 and read 2529 times.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 1):
It's been said before and I'll say it again, they knew the conditions up front and still took the job. Yes, it's crap of Ryanair to treat employees like this but there's no one holding a gun to their head to take or stay in these jobs.

I certainly see your point, but have to agree with JimJupiter that it's not quite fair to expect employees to accept terrible working conditions on the basis that there are plenty of other people queuing up to take your job. Everyone has the right to be paid for what they work.

In my line of work (healthcare) doctors often work extended hours that they're not compensated for, but this should be the exception and not the rule, and certainly not contractual.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: delta777jet
Posted 2013-05-21 02:49:58 and read 2508 times.

As I mentioned in earlier posts:

"Don't fly them - don't work for them if you don't like them"

Everybody is complaining about FR and there "non existing customer service" !

But that's like you are what you fly !

I personally will never ever fly with FR again, but that's my choice !
80 million pax are flying with them every year. So someone must like them.

Simply stop complaining - just stop taking them !

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: shufflemoomin
Posted 2013-05-21 03:45:16 and read 2440 times.

Quoting nclmedic (Reply 49):
Everyone has the right to be paid for what they work.

I agree, they do. But they also have the right to not accept a job if they don't like the terms and conditions on offer.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: hb88
Posted 2013-05-21 05:54:41 and read 2290 times.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 9):
I loved this part of the article...."Only paid her for the hours that she was actually "in the air". She was not paid for pre-flight briefings, turnaround time between flights, sales meetings and time on the ground due to delays and flight cancellations."

WHAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!! (sound of baby crying). Poor baby. I haven't been paid for that for 26 years...and I have never complained. I.hate to break it to you, part of the job, which you knew when you got hired. No sympathy here.

Not sure what you're getting at here - employment conditions for FAs globally are quite different. What might be routinely accepted in the US may be completely outlandish, unreasonable and shocking elsewhere in the world.

The benchmark isn't the US (probably thankfully). What is relevant are the prevailing conditions in the jurisdiction where the FAs are employed and this depends on the legal environment, the social context and other factors.

You would probably find crew conditions in the Middle-east and Asia quite different to what you are used to. The economic models and profitability of carriers globally result in variable crew conditions/compensation. That's life.

Your own experiences don't invalidate the negative conditions of the Ryanair crew.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: FlyingAY
Posted 2013-05-21 06:33:44 and read 2228 times.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 51):
I agree, they do. But they also have the right to not accept a job if they don't like the terms and conditions on offer.

Yes, but the terms and conditions must be compliant with the laws of the country. If yes, I have no problems. If not, FR must change them. The working laws are there for a good reason and companies like FR are walking as close to the non-compliancy as they can as it often means less cost. Sometimes they step on the non-compliancy side. Some might remember FR leaving from Marseille (and then coming back because they needed Marseille more than Marseille needed FR) because the French prosecutor started legal proceedings against FR violating the French working laws.

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: aerdingus
Posted 2013-05-22 15:47:41 and read 1891 times.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 47):
If you work for Ryanair, I'd like to say: try harder. I've flown with Ryanair many times because it's the cheapest and most convenient option on the route I flew, but I've never had so many experiences with flight attendants looking at me like crap and not even smiling or responding when I say hello and just generally being stand-offish when dealing with passengers.

Nice. You obviously haven't flown with me....I enjoy smiling & having a joke with the pax...makes the day easier for everyone...obviously I'm not a robot & I get tired...but I make a genuine effort with everyone....

Anyway, as the old adage goes...

If you don't like Ryanair....fly with someone else  

Topic: RE: Disgruntled Ryanair FA Talks To House Of Commons
Username: FlyingAY
Posted 2013-05-22 23:18:00 and read 1747 times.

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 54):

If you don't like Ryanair....fly with someone else

Exactly. Some other airlines might be genuinely interested about customer feedback and would develop their service based on this, but on FR the attitude (as seen here coming from an FR employee) seems to be that if you don't like us, go away. In general pretty that seems to be the attitude FR has towards everything (customer feedback, local airports, subsidies, working laws): we play with our own rules or we don't play at all.

It's funny that people are ready to fly in discomfort with Ryanair to save some relatively small amount of money. Imagine if the same would apply to car sales: we'd be seeing much more Ladas and Dacias on the road here.

I've chosen the "fly with someone else" option, but do understand that there are people driving the Dacia as well...


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