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Topic: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: questions
Posted 2013-05-20 11:03:20 and read 8295 times.

It's a few days before the much hyped T4B opens. We all know it will not be an architectural marvel. And we all know it will be a big improvement over the current T2/3 terminals.

However to what degree will it be a world class facility?

My sense is it will be better than the current state and will for the most part get the job done, but that most people expecting leading edge in airport terminal design, amenities, and wow factor will be a bit disappointed.

Will it even be the best terminal at JFK?

Thoughts?

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: FoxBravo
Posted 2013-05-20 11:41:31 and read 8143 times.

I guess we'll know soon enough, but I think (and hope) that it will at least be in the same league as T8 and T5, which I would argue are the current "state of the art" at JFK, in different ways. Neither has much of a "wow factor" compared to other airports around the world, but they both work quite well for what they do. T8 is much more striking and impressive in scale, but T5 was very thoughtfully laid out and has great food and shopping despite being somewhat bare-bones. My prediction is that T4 will be somewhere in between. The check-in area should look more like T8 architecturally (though the original sense of space as you descend towards the gates has been compromised by the much-needed relocation of the TSA checkpoint) and I'm excited about some of the concessions, e.g. Shake Shack and Blue Smoke. My concern is that the B concourse may feel a bit narrow and crowded at peak times, although I understand the extension is a bit wider than the original part, which should help.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: ezra
Posted 2013-05-20 16:11:40 and read 7658 times.

Funny, I flew in and out of T4 last week and purposefully allowed myself plenty of time for a lookabout on both legs of the journey. The DL portion of the check-in area is looking pretty sharp, although they're still putting the finishing touches on it. DL has also spruced up the existing gates on the T4B concourse with new seating and carpeting, and I'm excited for the reveal of the new construction. I hope that the ceiling height in the new portion is higher than the existing portion; the lower ceilings contribute more to the claustrophobic feel along the existing concourses than does the relatively narrow width. (The existing concourse doesn't feel much narrower than the A or B concourse in ATL, in my opinion. But the ceilings are low!) Lots of new shops and restaurants are going into the mall below the new, consolidated security area. All in all, much improvement is visible all around, although the building doesn't have the same integrated feel as T5 or T8 -- it's clear that it's a retrofit.

It's also abundantly clear that the building has been used hard since its opening and not always maintained in tip-top shape -- the arrivals hall is dingy, cracked floor tiles abound throughout the building, the non-DL check-in areas are in rough shape. The wire mesh used to cordon off the new security area is an unfortunate necessity. The terminal is no architectural masterpiece and the spatial experience is underwhelming and not particularly inspiring, but it's a major, major improvement over T3, which is what really matters. Hopefully DL will continue to spruce up the cosmetics as they get their mitts on more and more of the terminal...

My personal take is that T5 and T8 are on the top rung, followed by T1 and T4 on the second rung, then T7, and T2 at the bottom. (Leaving out the soon-to-be-dead T3.)

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-05-20 16:17:04 and read 7623 times.

I'm hoping this new temrinal will live up to the hype. I flew out of T3 in January and I have to say it wasn't horrible, but it felt like a few temrinals had been linked together like extensions on a house.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2013-05-20 16:22:43 and read 7597 times.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 1):
"wow factor"

What terminals around the world have a WOW FACTOR?

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-20 16:27:03 and read 7585 times.

I think DL is taking a page out of the B6 playbook with T5. Delta is even calling it T4.

Airy, glass, spacious, lots of amenities.

People rave over T5...look around...not much in terms of architecture.

What DL did is very smart...the terminal was already built. They did minimal expansion to the head house, redid the interior and stapled on 9 gates while taking over the rest of the concourse.

Much better than the AA palace in terms of economics.

So will it be the nicest terminal at JFK? No.

AAs will be nicer.

B6s will be nicer simply because it is solely controlled by B6 where T4 will still be run by JFKIAT and have a whole bunch of airlines in it.

Will it be better than what they have?

Yes and no. Yes for obvious reasons. No because the connections between T2 and T4 are gonna stink. A short walkway will now be replaced by a bus ride.

Will T4 international be nicer than what CO/UA have at Terminal C?

Yes. Only because it will be brand new.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-05-20 16:40:42 and read 7546 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 4):
What terminals around the world have a WOW FACTOR?

LHR Terminal 5
CDG Terminal 2F
DXB Terminal 3
PEK Terminal 3
PVG
BKK
ICN
HKG

Those are the ones that come most readily to mind.

The closest thing the US has to a world-class terminal would be DTW's McNamara terminal. Others may be functional, but you tend not to see great architecture.

-Mir

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: jfk777
Posted 2013-05-20 16:44:24 and read 7528 times.

Its just an expansion of a 10 year old terminal, its a big Delta deal. Anything is better then the "worldport", T4 makes things better for DL but about the same for all the other airlines at T4.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-20 17:13:42 and read 7446 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 5):
Much better than the AA palace in terms of economics.

I am not so sure about that. For what Schiphol, the PA, and Delta are spending on the expansion of T4, AA got much more.

Remember though Delta committed only $15 million or so of its own money, it is nonetheless covering the total cost (plus profit) with the rent it pays Schiphol.

There was no such middleman in the AA transaction. Plus, it has been almost 7 years. The debt on T8 is most likely lower now than it is on T4, which already had $300 million or so in debt outstanding even before Phase 1 of the expansion. And, there is still a Phase 2 to fund.

As to the OP's question, I wonder if in 20 years or so one of the parties to this transaction will recognize how flawed the layout of the extended pier is and tear both piers down to build a concourse parallel to the headhouse.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: questions
Posted 2013-05-20 18:13:43 and read 7277 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):
I wonder if in 20 years or so one of the parties to this transaction will recognize how flawed the layout of the extended pier is and tear both piers down to build a concourse parallel to the headhouse.

Please say more.

Like this?

Big version: Width: 720 Height: 540 File size: 153kb


[Edited 2013-05-20 18:56:23]

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: n7371f
Posted 2013-05-20 18:19:47 and read 7251 times.

Unless the new extension is remarkably better than the current concourse at Terminal 4, I'd say this new operation is just better than T2/T3. I've never found anything all that remarkable about Terminal 4. I was just there a few weeks ago and found plenty of wear and tear.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-20 19:09:41 and read 7108 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):

As to the OP's question, I wonder if in 20 years or so one of the parties to this transaction will recognize how flawed the layout of the extended pier is and tear both piers down to build a concourse parallel to the headhouse.

The original IAB had a concourse like that. The reason why this terminal has concourses the other way is to accomodate the operation of the old IAB while the IAT was under construction. That was only in 1999.

There's always history behind current circumstances

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: FSDan
Posted 2013-05-20 19:21:47 and read 7059 times.

Are other airlines being shifted around at all with DL moving into T4? It sounds like DL will have 9 new gates and 7 renovated ones. Are these all exclusively DL's, or will they be sharing? If so, they will be losing gates overall, at least until further phases are complete.

I guess they will probably at least share their gates with alliance and JV partners KL, UX, CI, and soon VS.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: gaystudpilot
Posted 2013-05-20 19:46:11 and read 6981 times.

From a passenger experience and operations perspective, T4B will be better. Compared to T2/3, passengers will have a clean, "modern" terminal with a roof that doesn't leak.

Will it blow your socks off? Doubt it. Narrow concourse, low ceilings. And, just read the DL Flyertalk thread re changes to the Sky Club alcohol policy -- that "flagship" Sky Club in T4, the one with the fancy deck, will be serving Bud Light and Gordon's Gin for free and charging 7USD for a measured shot of Baileys in your morning coffee.

To the vast majority of passengers it will be much better. As far as premium travelers, even within T4, it will be interesting to see where they go in a year or so... for example, JFK-LHR, DL BusinessElite or VS Upper Class.

[Edited 2013-05-20 19:49:02]

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-05-20 20:48:45 and read 6851 times.

Quoting gaystudpilot (Reply 13):
To the vast majority of passengers it will be much better.

So long as they're not connecting between T2 and T4. Then the extra hassle and time spent might well cancel out the benefits of T4.

But if you can stay within T4, then it will be much better.

-Mir

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-05-20 21:00:36 and read 6827 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):
I am not so sure about that. For what Schiphol, the PA, and Delta are spending on the expansion of T4, AA got much more.

Remember though Delta committed only $15 million or so of its own money, it is nonetheless covering the total cost (plus profit) with the rent it pays Schiphol.

There was no such middleman in the AA transaction. Plus, it has been almost 7 years. The debt on T8 is most likely lower now than it is on T4, which already had $300 million or so in debt outstanding even before Phase 1 of the expansion. And, there is still a Phase 2 to fund.

And the T8 bonds are, if I'm not mistaken, facility revenue bonds that are backed by the financing of the government agency the PA, and at fairly low interest rates. Not to mention - much of the criticism of T8's economics has long been that it's a white elephant. But I do not think that is really the case any longer. Sure, T8 is still underutilized (in terms of turns per day per gate), but that's true of most terminals at JFK which are used most intensively at peak times. But with more AA traffic moving through the terminal from more slots and more mainline over the last several years, plus the addition in that same period of TAM, LAN, Qatar, etc., T8 these days is a fairly well-used place. That surely helps its economics.

[Edited 2013-05-20 21:01:52]

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: staralliance85
Posted 2013-05-20 21:50:13 and read 6627 times.

Back in the early stages of AA's CH11 days. Delta should of made AA an offer they couldn't refuse for T8. Delta Terminal T4B is No terminal 8, terminal 5 or EWR Terminal C because they do not dominate it to themselves. At T4 Delta has to share the space with other Star Alliance airlines. Terminal 8 is almost a Oneworld powerhouse, T5 is dedicated to Jetblue.
UA has had a very strong hub at EWR Terminal C for over 25 years.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: laca773
Posted 2013-05-20 22:18:15 and read 6509 times.

[quote=staralliance85,reply=16]Back in the early stages of AA's CH11 days. Delta should of made AA an offer they couldn't refuse for T8. Delta Terminal T4B is No terminal 8, terminal 5 or EWR Terminal C because they do not dominate it to themselves. At T4 Delta has to share the space with other Star Alliance airlines. Terminal 8 is almost a Oneworld powerhouse, T5 is dedicated to Jetblue.
UA has had a very strong hub at EWR Terminal C for over 25 years.[/quote

What Star carriers are going to be using T4B?

How many more OW carriers may move into T8?

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-05-20 22:19:44 and read 6510 times.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 10):
I've never found anything all that remarkable about Terminal 4. I was just there a few weeks ago and found plenty of wear and tear.

There was wear and tear on it as soon as it opened! I remember visiting literally a week after it opened and already finding water damage in the baggage claim area. There was a leak somewhere, which had damaged the roof and caused cosmetic damage to a wall, one column and had pooled on the floor, causing a stain. I didn't see any evidence of this being cleaned up. I can't say it was still like that when I flew in there last month, but it didn't look like a brand new terminal, that's for sure.

This is the way things are in NYC, unfortunately, although I feel like T5 has weathered its passengers a bit better, and it's no less heavily trafficked. I was just coming back after flying through NRT and HND (both T2 and the Intl. Terminal) and those airports are immaculate by comparison, and they sure don't get fewer passengers than any of JFK's terminals.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-21 05:41:17 and read 5422 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 18):
This is the way things are in NYC, unfortunately, although I feel like T5 has weathered its passengers a bit better, and it's no less heavily trafficked. I was just coming back after flying through NRT and HND (both T2 and the Intl. Terminal) and those airports are immaculate by comparison, and they sure don't get fewer passengers than any of JFK's terminals.

Stop crapping on the NY airports already a.net. It gets very very old.

T1, T4, T5, T8 and even T7 are world class facilities.

Stop making them sound like Detroit Metro 10 years ago.

JFK is in better shape now than it has been since the 60s.

Also, keep in mind that T1 and T4 opened when JFK handled 35 million passengers a year. It now handles 50 million passenegrs per year.

Things are crowded, things have been updated to handle that and many people dont necessarily like it:

The T1 food court was ripped up and the sculpture taken away to make a bigger food court.

The T4 headhouse was cut in half by a central security checkpoint.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-05-21 06:26:58 and read 5176 times.

There are sure a lot of opinions here from people who haven't even been in the "new" T4 yet.

While I agree that T4 has generally looked far shabbier than it should for its age, I expect that to change dramatically now. with the exception of the current dilapidated JFK facility, Delta's hubs are very well-maintained. Being the primary tenant in the facility will give Delta a significant amount of input into the maintenance and cleanliness of the facility. Expect its spaces to be pretty pristine.

T4 is not going to be a Taj Mahal facility. But it will it will be more than nice enough. There will certainly be no NYC gateway facility that is superior enough to drive a revenue premium. That is definitely NOT the case with the current situation.

The other comment I'd make is that Delta is doing its best to emphasize the amenities for SkyPriority passengers. The dedicated Check-In lounge and security checkpoint, along with a mega-SkyClub are going to be very welcome additions.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: JAAlbert
Posted 2013-05-21 07:05:12 and read 4953 times.

ANYTHING will be better than the old T3. I will never forget the birds roosting inside, the dangling wiring, the buckets catching leaks, the carpeting that had been worn to shreds. Oh, and the crowds. Many third world terminals were in better shape than that sorry facility.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 4):
What terminals around the world have a WOW FACTOR?

SAN's new terminal is almost complete and is quite impressive. The portion already open is stylish, with high ceilings, large windows and attractive finishes. Most airports put a lot of design attention into the departures area of the airport and leave the arrivals hall as an after thought (low ceilings, blank walls, no windows, etc.) What is nice about San Diego's new terminal is that the arrivals hall is as attractive as the rest of the facility, with soaring ceilings, glass walls, and art. I think a model of the Lindbergh's plane hangs over the luggage carousels.

Now if SAN would deal with the astonishingly outdated older terminal. Transiting through that facility is a nightmare, particularly if your flight is delayed. My understanding is that SAN has no intention of replacing that facility at present.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: AwysBSB
Posted 2013-05-21 07:55:51 and read 4685 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 20):
T4 is not going to be a Taj Mahal facility. But it will it will be more than nice enough. There will certainly be no NYC gateway facility that is superior enough to drive a revenue premium. That is definitely NOT the case with the current situation.

The other comment I'd make is that Delta is doing its best to emphasize the amenities for SkyPriority passengers. The dedicated Check-In lounge and security checkpoint, along with a mega-SkyClub are going to be very welcome additions.

In other words, that does not bring the advantage Diamond Medallion passengers deserve and is quite inattentive to Umbrella Terminal, which could become dedicated to highest value passengers of Sky Team as lastly discussed.

[Edited 2013-05-21 08:01:35]

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-21 09:22:03 and read 4345 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 9):
Unless the new extension is remarkably better than the current concourse at Terminal 4, I'd say this new operation is just better than T2/T3. I've never found anything all that remarkable about Terminal 4. I was just there a few weeks ago and found plenty of wear and tear.

All terminals have wear and tear; the important this is whether or not they have "good bones." Look at T8, for example. It is well known that after it ran into financial trouble AA did not build one half of the headhouse/main concourse and skimped on the interior finishes, but the structure as a whole has an ideal layout that will serve AA well should it decide (in the near future) to go back and redress the interior and complete the building. (When AA does that, I hope it lifts the low ceiling at the top of the escalators as one rises out of the tunnel. That is my biggest pet peeve.)

On the other hand, T4's issues are more than wear and tear. Expanding the B pier was not the best solution. It may have been the most convenient and economical, but it is not the best use of the available space and it will result in long walks for passengers to and from baggage claim/customs.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
The original IAB had a concourse like that. The reason why this terminal has concourses the other way is to accomodate the operation of the old IAB while the IAT was under construction. That was only in 1999.

There's always history behind current circumstances

Whatever the circumstances, it was shortsighted. Look at Reply 9. How many more gates could have been built in the same space? Even if Delta did not need all those gates now, that layout would have given them room for expansion. Moreover, the customer experience would have been better in a terminal with that layout.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-21 09:58:41 and read 4180 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 23):
Whatever the circumstances, it was shortsighted. Look at Reply 9. How many more gates could have been built in the same space? Even if Delta did not need all those gates now, that layout would have given them room for expansion. Moreover, the customer experience would have been better in a terminal with that layout.

Easy for you to say shortsighted.

They kept a 16 gate terminal running while they built a new 16 gate terminal over it.

That was a monumental feat and there were several articles about it.

Hardly short-sighted especially if you saw the garbage they replaced.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-05-21 10:05:41 and read 4297 times.

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 22):
In other words, that does not bring the advantage Diamond Medallion passengers deserve and is quite inattentive to Umbrella Terminal, which could become dedicated to highest value passengers of Sky Team as lastly discussed.

What on Earth are you talking about? The Diamond Medallions don't get a separate plane. I happen to be a DM. If you think that I have any desire to check in at T3 when my plane is parked at T2 or T4, you are crazy.

Your idea makes no sense. I want to check-in as close to my gate as possible. Delta is setting up a completely separate check-in facility for SkyPriority passengers at T4. They will also have their own dedicated TSA entrance. Plus they will have a giant SkyClub with an outdoor deck. What on Earth could T3 provide that would top that? There is not even space in the rotunda for a proper TSA checkpoint, much less adequate check-in facilities and a proper lounge.

Have you ever actually been to T3? Because your idea makes absolutely no practical sense whatsoever. The only plausible use for T3 in terms of airline operations in a 21st Century environment would be a regional jet concourse. It is never going to be a "terminal" again. And shouldn't be.

[Edited 2013-05-21 10:06:49]

[Edited 2013-05-21 10:07:05]

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-21 11:38:08 and read 3939 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 24):
Easy for you to say shortsighted.

They kept a 16 gate terminal running while they built a new 16 gate terminal over it.

That was a monumental feat and there were several articles about it.

Hardly short-sighted especially if you saw the garbage they replaced.

And, how many gates did AA/MIA keep working, while they built a 45-gate linear concourse in place of piers A, B, C, & D? Now, that was monumental. AA/MIA even had the great idea to build a train on top of the terminal to facilitate passenger movements.

BTW, I did see the garbage it replaced. Just think how easier it would have been back then to build a midfield concourse. There was even a precedent for it in the US, the C/D Concourses at Dulles.

Back then, I also transited quite often through what was considered close to state of the art for the time, United Terminal 9. It had the same basic layout that T4 has now. Its concourses were also as wide and as high as T4's are now. SOM effectively designed a more contemporary T9. Groundbreaking!

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: csavel
Posted 2013-05-21 11:50:23 and read 3987 times.

a couple of thoughts.

1. I wouldn't be surprised if a veeeery long series of moving walkways is somehow built between t2 and t4. Yeah difficult, but can be done. Maybe not for a decade or so.

2. T4 has got to be better than T3 but that is not a large hurdle to jump over. I think everyone is pleased to see that terminal in their rearview mirrors. However even it T4 is "meh", Delta is smart in that most people are like in point 3.

3. Most people, other than A.netters don't care too much about terminals or the wow factor therein. This sort of makes sense as most people want to *spend as little time in the terminal as possible.* The best terminals in most people's minds are the ones that get you into the plane and out on the street the fastest.

4. That being said, what with security delays, and flight delays, and weather, people often have a lot of time to kill. Thus the best, wowiest terminals for most people are ones that have amenities for people with time to kill,; *not* necessarily stores to get a whole bunch of stuff.

They've already checked in, and how much extra do people want to lug in their carry on, especially since most of it can be got at home? (Duty-free excepted but that is really only price and I never really understood the concept anyway)

People want free or low cost WIfi, restaurants, plenty of 'em, and good gourmet ones, not typical chain store airport food. People want a lot of comfortable seats since they're waiting. Maybe a book store or magazine store since people still read dead-tree material. For long delays a place to get shut-eye. Why can't other airports do the schiphol concept of lounge chairs???

So I think wow factor is nice. Pax will be impressed - for about five minutes. I mean, has anyone known someone who was NOT an airline freak who chose a flight based on terminal wow rather than price, service of airline, terminal efficiency, or schedule?

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: AwysBSB
Posted 2013-05-21 12:06:06 and read 3948 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 25):

According to what is discussed in another thread about it, the umbrella building has enough space to work like any premium terminal. Its rotunda even has similar dimensions of First Class Terminal Frankfurt, Premium Terminal Doha or JetQuay CIP Terminal Singapore.
By the way, LH, QR or JetQuay were not crazy when building them, even with no jet bridge. Rather, those terminal are very profitable. Why for DL it would totally different? NYC is the market for such a terminal, believe it!

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-05-21 12:54:50 and read 3822 times.

Quoting csavel (Reply 27):
1. I wouldn't be surprised if a veeeery long series of moving walkways is somehow built between t2 and t4. Yeah difficult, but can be done. Maybe not for a decade or so.

It wouldn't be difficult at all, and it could be done relatively quickly once the T3 rotunda was out of the way. It's just a matter of cost.

-Mir

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: spacecadet
Posted 2013-05-21 19:26:06 and read 3521 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 19):
Stop crapping on the NY airports already a.net. It gets very very old.

Sorry, no. I will continue to provide my opinions, despite your commands otherwise. You are not the boss of anybody here. New York's airports are not even close to "world class". If you don't like people crapping on NYC airports, I would suggest writing a letter to the Port Authority. It couldn't hurt.

Read the comments from many others here, and elsewhere.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: goldenstate
Posted 2013-05-21 19:56:27 and read 3460 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 8):
I am not so sure about that. For what Schiphol, the PA, and Delta are spending on the expansion of T4, AA got much more.

This is entertaining. You obviously do not understand the concept of time value of money.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-05-22 06:00:25 and read 3184 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 30):

I agree that you can make youropinions known, but you make it sound like New York is that only city i the world with aging teminals. There are worse terminals that I have been through

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-22 06:34:52 and read 3131 times.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 30):
Sorry, no. I will continue to provide my opinions, despite your commands otherwise. You are not the boss of anybody here. New York's airports are not even close to "world class". If you don't like people crapping on NYC airports, I would suggest writing a letter to the Port Authority. It couldn't hurt.

Im not commanding anything.

You have your opinion. I think it is wrong...that's my opinion.


9 runways

3 new control towers

14 different terminals

2 airtrain systems

Hub for DL, AA, UA, B6

Several 380 flights a day

Home to longest flight in the world

Over 100 different airlines

Any city would DREAM of the JFK/LGA/EWR airport system

Most a.netters dream of it!

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-05-22 06:54:20 and read 3108 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 33):
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 30):
Sorry, no. I will continue to provide my opinions, despite your commands otherwise. You are not the boss of anybody here. New York's airports are not even close to "world class". If you don't like people crapping on NYC airports, I would suggest writing a letter to the Port Authority. It couldn't hurt.

Im not commanding anything.

You have your opinion. I think it is wrong...that's my opinion.

I think the key disagreement is over what "world class" means. One can say that McDonald's is a world class restaurant, some would agree, some would disagree.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 33):
Any city would DREAM of the JFK/LGA/EWR airport system

Personally I think their dreams would more be along the lines of HKG, where they get to make their own island and put on it whatever they want, and get to build out the highways and the high speed rail to get there. Too bad there isn't a few dozen square miles of Long Island that we can start all over on.

Note that in dreams you don't worry about what it costs!  

Same goes for the island sinking - that only happens in nightmares! 

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-22 06:57:23 and read 3106 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 33):
Any city would DREAM of the JFK/LGA/EWR airport system

That is a stretch. The NYC airport system as it is set up is a complete mess.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-22 09:29:38 and read 2933 times.

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 31):
This is entertaining. You obviously do not understand the concept of time value of money.

Here is what is amusing. That wasn't the point at all. LOL.

You obviously do not understand the concept of a timely investment.

Here's a history lesson. Delta was contemplating a renovation of their terminal facilities as far back as AA was. Delta just kept stalling for a number of reasons. By the time Delta finally had to do something, it ended up spending more for less.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: dartland
Posted 2013-05-22 10:38:52 and read 2821 times.

I think the new T4B will be great for DL and it's passengers. And while not architecturally different, certainly provide a great airport experience due to the new check-in and security flows, the high-end concessions, the new Sky Club concept, etc.

However, I think DL is taking a big risk trumping up T4 to the extent that they are for 1 main reason: Likely half (maybe more) of DL's JFK passengers will be going through T2. They are communicating to the world that T4 revolutionizes the DL experience in NYC, but many of their customers will experience the same old JFK thing.

And not only is T2 a poor experience relative to what they're marketing about T4, they are making things worse with the bus transport transfer between the two. I took it a few weeks ago and it was AWFUL. Hot, slow, long, crowded. Additionally, the AirTrain connection from the T2/T3 stop to T2 is extremely bad, as you have to walk outside and across the street in open air.

An airline has to be careful about marketing an experience they can't deliver, and DL is playing with fire given the extent they're going to talk about T4 as a revolutionary new terminal for NYers.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-22 11:00:10 and read 2761 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 33):

You have your opinion. I think it is wrong

What's being missed here is the 'expectations of New York'...

It is expected of anything NYC is to be exceptional and yes, a WOW factor.

Thus...

Quoting questions (Reply 9):
Please say more.

Like this?

...would have certainly been a huge wow factor albeit much more expensive and still in the works - but much more forward thinking while anticipating future expansion. I advocated this very layout when DL announced the T4 extension and we went to war discussing it here. Now that it is a reality...it would be long before people really start to resent it, and I do mean passengers.It's simply not efficient and given reports on current problem issues..this is only going to increase.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 23):

Whatever the circumstances, it was shortsighted. Look at Reply 9. How many more gates could have been built in the same space? Even if Delta did not need all those gates now, that layout would have given them room for expansion. Moreover, the customer experience would have been better in a terminal with that layout.

Totally agree.

LAX my home airport has been paralleling construction/expansion of it's largest international facility along with JFK's T4.. and it looks like the TBIT will far out perform T4 when it is fully completed. TBIT will deliver a wow factor..it's already coming into view.

JFK/DL could have done better..much better but chose to settle for quick and mediocrity over practical, cutting-edge and long term resolution. Sure it would have cost more and still far from complete.

But would it have been worth it?

I think so..we expect the best from New York, it is America's flag ship city. So should it be..it's airport.

BN747

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-22 11:39:15 and read 2708 times.

Quoting dartland (Reply 37):
I think the new T4B will be great for DL and it's passengers. And while not architecturally different, certainly provide a great airport experience due to the new check-in and security flows, the high-end concessions, the new Sky Club concept, etc.

However, I think DL is taking a big risk trumping up T4 to the extent that they are for 1 main reason: Likely half (maybe more) of DL's JFK passengers will be going through T2. They are communicating to the world that T4 revolutionizes the DL experience in NYC, but many of their customers will experience the same old JFK thing.

And not only is T2 a poor experience relative to what they're marketing about T4, they are making things worse with the bus transport transfer between the two. I took it a few weeks ago and it was AWFUL. Hot, slow, long, crowded. Additionally, the AirTrain connection from the T2/T3 stop to T2 is extremely bad, as you have to walk outside and across the street in open air.

An airline has to be careful about marketing an experience they can't deliver, and DL is playing with fire given the extent they're going to talk about T4 as a revolutionary new terminal for NYers.

This post really hits Deltas problem right on the head. For half their passengers...nothing has changed. For connectors, it will get worse!

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-05-22 12:00:17 and read 2685 times.

Do you really think 1/2 of the customers Delta serves out of JFK will really experience T-2?
I really don't know but asking. I would think the Majority will just experience T-4?

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: goldenstate
Posted 2013-05-22 16:17:14 and read 2538 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 36):
You obviously do not understand the concept of a timely investment.

Here's a history lesson. Delta was contemplating a renovation of their terminal facilities as far back as AA was. Delta just kept stalling for a number of reasons. By the time Delta finally had to do something, it ended up spending more for less.

I don't see how you can judge someone else's understanding of a topic you know nothing about, so you'll have to save the faux erudition for another audience. Your claim of "spending more" is factually incorrect when measured on the basis of construction cost inflation-adjusted project price tags.

I won't even bother asking how you are measuring return on investment, since AA's declining competitive position in NYC and overall financial performance following T8 completion precludes any analytically minded person from arguing that the T8 investment has resulted in any incremental value creation for AMR's shareholders.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-05-22 16:54:40 and read 2499 times.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 40):
Do you really think 1/2 of the customers Delta serves out of JFK will really experience T-2?
I really don't know but asking. I would think the Majority will just experience T-4?

I'd say the 1/2 number is pretty accurate. Not only do you have all the RJ passengers using T2, but you'll have some domestic mainline there as well. If DL wants JFK to be an international hub, that'll mean they need plenty of domestic-to-international transfers, and that will probably involve T2 in some way.

-Mir

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-22 19:53:38 and read 2322 times.

Delta was never building their own terminal.

Delta wanted to be in T4. Schipol USA wanted them in T4. The PANYNJ wanted them in T4. This has been going on for over a decade.

Delta didn't miss the boat...they are doing exactly what they always wanted to do...just a bit late courtesy 9/11.


On another note, one of the best articles I ever read on JFK from the late 1990s.

Google "a new kennedy takes wing" and read the NY Times article. Great read. And great history behind the current redeveloped "terminal city." The redevelopment started in 1994 and the Delta piece is really the final piece.

New T1, New T4, new T5, expanded T7, new T8, AirTrain, new Tower, new roadways, lots replaced with garages.

In 1997, they reconfigured everything for 45 million pasengers a year. That day has already come

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-22 21:36:53 and read 2219 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 43):
Delta didn't miss the boat...they are doing exactly what they always wanted to do...just a bit late courtesy 9/11.

They put expanding T4 West on hold as early as 2000 so it was pre-9/11.

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: questions
Posted 2013-05-22 21:58:06 and read 2201 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 38):
...would have certainly been a huge wow factor albeit much more expensive and still in the works - but much more forward thinking while anticipating future expansion. I advocated this very layout when DL announced the T4 extension and we went to war discussing it here. Now that it is a reality...it would be long before people really start to resent it, and I do mean passengers.It's simply not efficient and given reports on current problem issues..this is only going to increase.

I'm still curious as to "current problem issues." What are they?

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-22 23:03:00 and read 2130 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 45):
I'm still curious as to "current problem issues." What are they?

Are you not reading the posts in this thread?

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 18):
Quoting n7371f (Reply 10):
I've never found anything all that remarkable about Terminal 4. I was just there a few weeks ago and found plenty of wear and tear.

There was wear and tear on it as soon as it opened! I remember visiting literally a week after it opened and already finding water damage in the baggage claim area. There was a leak somewhere, which had damaged the roof and caused cosmetic damage to a wall, one column and had pooled on the floor, causing a stain. I didn't see any evidence of this being cleaned up. I can't say it was still like that when I flew in there last month, but it didn't look like a brand new terminal, that's for sure
Quoting questions (Reply 45):


Even your design would have been more advanced than the current 'long fingered pier' designs from the 1950s (back then they thought that was design of genius - every airport did it, from NYC/BOS/PHL, etc)

but the western course would curve in alignment with the taxiways. Just a ton of ramp space to work with there. Even more so.. I'd think like the Japanese, use all available space. Meaning, do you see that huge low level car lot area next to large parking garage - push the Tower and the main T4 Terminal complex back into that area (kinda like what TBIT is doing with the gates) - thus yielding even more ramp space. Outrageous? Yes, at first.. but upon completion ... a massive complex that stands as a gleaming premier entry point to the USA. That look would enhance then entire airport's appearance - making T1 and T8/9 'feel obsolete'.

BN747

Topic: RE: DL JFK T4B: Leading Edge Or Just Better Than T2/3
Username: boswashsprstar
Posted 2013-05-23 10:22:22 and read 1927 times.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 4):
What terminals around the world have a WOW FACTOR?
Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
LHR Terminal 5
CDG Terminal 2F
DXB Terminal 3
PEK Terminal 3
PVG
BKK
ICN
HKG

Those are the ones that come most readily to mind.

The closest thing the US has to a world-class terminal would be DTW's McNamara terminal. Others may be functional, but you tend not to see great architecture.

-Mir

I actually think the new terminal at DCA is quite nice. Unfortunately it gets very overcrowded in the post-security sections, and the lack of airside connections between the piers is annoying, but strictly from an architecture standpoint the main hall is pretty spectacular.


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