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Topic: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-18 11:16:33 and read 32621 times.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...ide-teen-qualifies-one-uks-3815223

Joins Ryanair in September. That may be a record for the youngest commercial jet pilot.

[Edited 2013-05-18 11:25:27]

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-05-18 11:29:45 and read 32572 times.

I don't think it's a record. Lots of airlines with cadet schemes (BA, Aer Lingus etc) have had plenty of 19 year old FO's in the past.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: N766UA
Posted 2013-05-18 11:33:36 and read 32513 times.

Am I the only one who finds this kind of frightening? I think back to me as an 18/19 year old pilot, I don't know that I'd have flown with me! lol

A 737 with 170 people on it isn't really the place to cut your teeth.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-05-18 11:38:50 and read 32420 times.

The young First Officer on that video must not be a lot more older...

http://youtu.be/Jz8UORc-1B4

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-18 11:49:28 and read 32289 times.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 2):
I don't think it's a record. Lots of airlines with cadet schemes (BA, Aer Lingus etc) have had plenty of 19 year old FO's in the past.

On that subject, yesterday I came across the following long video from 1970, covering BOAC's pilot training scheme (jointly operated with BEA) where they trained new pilots from scratch, most of them just out of the equivalent of high school. Their air training college at Hamble was shut down in the 1980s. Includes some good VC-10 (and DHC-1 Chipmunk) footage. All the young trainees featured in the video would now be retired.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03ppjh8lg_8

For some reason it begins with a brief DL TV ad from those years.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: 3rdGen
Posted 2013-05-18 13:16:24 and read 31670 times.

Heard of a 21 year old ATR Captain in India. It think it was wi IT.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: RandWKOP
Posted 2013-05-18 13:23:37 and read 31583 times.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 1):

As far as I know EI exclude applications from people who have just finished secondary school (usually 18 years old) in Ireland.
That would probably mean the youngest qualified pilots would probably be 20 years old.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-05-18 14:06:41 and read 31264 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 2):
Am I the only one who finds this kind of frightening? I think back to me as an 18/19 year old pilot, I don't know that I'd have flown with me! lol

A 737 with 170 people on it isn't really the place to cut your teeth.

Not everyone is the same at 18/19. Some kids are mature and ready for the responsibility at that age and some people are never really ready for it. I don't think the number of people on the aircraft should really make a difference either. I hope this isn't a case of hiring someone just to make headlines. I hate to think that way, but it is Ryanair.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: SpaceshipDC10
Posted 2013-05-18 14:46:18 and read 30257 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 2):
Am I the only one who finds this kind of frightening? I think back to me as an 18/19 year old pilot, I don't know that I'd have flown with me!

Frightening ? Not at all. Age is not everything. You can be an 18 y.o. and feel very responsible and involved in your duty, and you can also be a grey head with many flying hours and perform so badly that the FAA has to step into your cockpit during several months to see how you perform with other crew members and what's wrong with you before your company decides to send you in retirement. That's what happened with Pan Am some 40+ years ago.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: N766UA
Posted 2013-05-18 15:48:59 and read 28856 times.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 7):
Not everyone is the same at 18/19. Some kids are mature and ready for the responsibility at that age and some people are never really ready for it
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 9):
Frightening ? Not at all. Age is not everything. You can be an 18 y.o. and feel very responsible and involved in your duty, and you can also be a grey head with many flying hours and perform so badly that the FAA has to step into your cockpit during several months to see how you perform with other crew members and what's wrong with you before your company decides to send you in retirement. That's what happened with Pan Am some 40+ years ago.

I will concede that age isn't that important, but what's this kid got for flight experience? If Oxford Aviation Academy is anything like the pilot factories here in the states, I'd be very leery. A 737 is a big jet, and Ryanair flies all over the place. I don't want my potential PIC to be some kid who's most "seasoned" experience was flying a 2-seater through some clouds.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Hywel
Posted 2013-05-18 16:02:50 and read 28555 times.

I know a 19 year old first officer flying the B777 with KLM. Not a big deal at all.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: MSNfan
Posted 2013-05-18 16:03:49 and read 28535 times.

Reminds me of this video, he is pretty young too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m5SsW6u3oE

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: BoeingVista
Posted 2013-05-18 16:06:05 and read 28433 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
Joins Ryanair in September. That may be a record for the youngest commercial jet pilot.

Too young to be covered by minimum wage legislation, knowing O'leary he would probably earn more working at KFC.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: gingersnap
Posted 2013-05-18 16:07:48 and read 28429 times.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 14):

FR seem to pay their pilots well....eventually.

As much as I would love to do it, I don't envy the kid with the workload and fatigue he's going to suffer.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-18 16:14:42 and read 28256 times.

19 years old is far too young and inexperienced to fly a 737. I don't care how mature you are, experience is experience. I would definitely not put a family member on a jetliner with a 19 year old crew member. Not gonna happen.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: trex8
Posted 2013-05-18 16:15:08 and read 28260 times.

But you all are just fine with our politicians letting 23-24 yr olds fly fast jets with weapons who may only have a little more time than this 19 year old?? Don't the RAAF let kids straight from high school go to flight school unlike the USAF/USN? So their pilots would be only a little older than this 19 year old!

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-18 16:20:22 and read 28118 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 17):

But you all are just fine with our politicians letting 23-24 yr olds fly fast jets with weapons who may only have a little more time than this 19 year old?? Don't the RAAF let kids straight from high school go to flight school unlike the USAF/USN? So their pilots would be only a little older than this 19 year old!

23-23 years old is definitely young, however a significant difference over a 19 year old. I will also say, that while I have gone through both military and civilian training, you cannot compare the two when it comes to initital training and experience. Military training, at least in the US is quite intense.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: gilesdavies
Posted 2013-05-18 16:20:30 and read 28114 times.

I wonder if Ryanair are taking part in the governments new Apprentice scheme, to get young people back into work?!

If so they will only need to pay him £2.65 per hour!  

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: TrnsWrld
Posted 2013-05-18 16:24:14 and read 27990 times.

Wow I had no idea some airlines out there hired such young pilots. Everyone here keeps saying age doesn't matter, but IMO it absolutely does. Even if the person is extremely intelligent and mature, he or she simply does not have the experience that someone who is older does. I for one would be a little concerned if there was a 19 year old up front and something went wrong.
Now besides all that, what does impress me is to be that age and fly such large and complex aircraft. Infact I'm jealous! One recent example and even though not as young as the pilots mentioned in this thread, one of the pilots who recently died in the National 747-400 was I believe only 32 or 33 (my age). Prior to the 74 he was on the DC8. For an American company that's impressive. From my understanding he was an excellent pilot and I have so much respect for someone that can get so far at such a young age. If I was flying 747s right now I would feel like the man lol.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: PHX Flyer
Posted 2013-05-18 16:25:55 and read 27996 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 16):
I would definitely not put a family member on a jetliner with a 19 year old crew member.

Then you better stay away from airlines like BA or Lufthansa. Lufthansa have part of their flight academy here in AZ. They train the vast majority of their pilots ab initio, including many 18-year-old high school graduates - who will be 20, when they start working as first officers on a B737 or A320.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-18 16:33:48 and read 27826 times.

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 21):
Then you better stay away from airlines like BA or Lufthansa. Lufthansa have part of their flight academy here in AZ. They train the vast majority of their pilots ab initio, including many 18-year-old high school graduates - who will be 20, when they start working as first officers on a B737 or A320

While I stand by my original comment, I will have to say that I have flown in the jumpseat with Lufthansa and they are absolutely top notch. I am familiar with Lufthansa's ab initio training and if there would be an exception I was comfortable with, they would definitely be it. Lufthansa is a good measuring stick, that I don't believe many airlines can live up to. There are always exceptions to every rule as they say, but I stand by my comment that a 19 year old just doesn't have the experience. Since I only have 38 years flying experience, I may not be the best judge.  

[Edited 2013-05-18 16:34:38]

[Edited 2013-05-18 16:35:28]

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-18 16:38:18 and read 27689 times.

Ironically, in Europe the minimum age to obtain a full private pilot's license is 17, but you'd have to have someone drive you to the airport (or ride your bicycle) since you have to be 18 to drive a car in almost all countries in Europe (very few exceptions at 17 including the UK and Ireland).

[Edited 2013-05-18 16:42:33]

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: zkokq
Posted 2013-05-18 16:41:42 and read 27624 times.

So we are fine with young people flying military jets with weapons capable to tearing lives and families apart and wiping cities off maps, yet someone flying commercial it's an issue.. Wow.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: AR385
Posted 2013-05-18 16:43:39 and read 27713 times.

Having seen at my brother´s two pubs how hard the pilots in their 20s and 30s of certain airlines here in Mexico, one that also flies 737s party all night and then drive straight to the airport for their days´ flying, the age of what seems to be a mature young man is really not in my priority of concerns.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-18 16:52:21 and read 27488 times.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 24):
So we are fine with young people flying military jets with weapons capable to tearing lives and families apart and wiping cities off maps, yet someone flying commercial it's an issue.. Wow.

The issue is not young people in and of itself. In the US, we don't have any 19 year olds flying supersonic jets and wreaking havoc. There is 19, then there are college graduates at 23-24 years of age with more maturity and experience. I don't think you have to be 50 years old, but 19..... I know some at 19 are more mature than some at 60, but I also don't think 80 year olds should be piloting commercial jets either. This is just MY opinion, Nothing more....

[Edited 2013-05-18 16:54:44]

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: N766UA
Posted 2013-05-18 16:54:34 and read 28030 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 17):

But you all are just fine with our politicians letting 23-24 yr olds fly fast jets with weapons who may only have a little more time than this 19 year old??

Apples and oranges. Actually, considering what it takes to not only obtain a commission but also to pass UPT and get fighters, it's more like apples to tires.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 24):

So we are fine with young people flying military jets with weapons capable to tearing lives and families apart and wiping cities off maps, yet someone flying commercial it's an issue.. Wow.

I see you're trying to make a comparison here that was never inferred or intended, and on top of that you're needlessly and selfishly bringing emotion into it by saying "tearing lives and families apart?" Where did you learn to interact with other people? It's not even in the same universe as what we're talking about!

[Edited 2013-05-18 16:58:26]

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-18 17:00:34 and read 27750 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 27):
I see you're trying to make a comparison here that was never inferred or intended, and on top of that you're needlessly and selfishly bringing emotion into it by saying "tearing lives and families apart?" Where did you learn to interact with other people? It's not even in the same universe as what we're talking about!

How true!

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: zkokq
Posted 2013-05-18 17:02:38 and read 28190 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 27):

You seem to think that a 19 year old is incapable of performing in a high performance environment. I don't think some seasoned Pilots can perform. Lets look at AF447 as well as multiple crashes around the world. Age is a number, not a calculation of how capable and mature someone is.

Bringing emotion into it? Yeah no dramas, at least I am not sending out personal insults.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: N766UA
Posted 2013-05-18 17:04:38 and read 28042 times.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 29):
Bringing emotion into it? Yeah no dramas, at least I am not sending out personal insults.

Please quote for me the personal insult to which you are referring.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 29):
Age is a number, not a calculation of how capable and mature someone is.

Which is why I said his age didn't matter. What I did say was that his flight experience, or potential lack thereof, is the issue.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: zkokq
Posted 2013-05-18 17:12:46 and read 27852 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 30):

Questioning where I learnt to interact, for me that's an insult and rude, as well as not needed.

You think FR is just going to throw him into a cockpit straight away? I don't think they will. He will do his time like everyone else.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: N766UA
Posted 2013-05-18 17:19:05 and read 27754 times.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 31):
Questioning where I learnt to interact, for me that's an insult and rude, as well as not needed.

I think it was an entirely valid question. You crafted your argument so that anyone who disagrees with you would appear to be in support of the, what, "tearing apart of families," as you said. That's pretty unnecessarily manipulative, unfair, and irrelevant. But by questioning your motivation for arguing in such a manner, I'm the one being insulting?! I really am curious where you learned this stuff now.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 31):
You think FR is just going to throw him into a cockpit straight away? I don't think they will. He will do his time like everyone else.

Well that's what we're discussing! I'm not familiar with these so called "pilot cadet" programs. What's next for this kid? Towing banners? Flying sightseeing tours? Or is he going into a 737?

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: BasilFawlty
Posted 2013-05-18 17:45:49 and read 27377 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 16):
19 years old is far too young and inexperienced to fly a 737. I don't care how mature you are, experience is experience.

Experience, like Lionair when a 15000!!! hours captain does nothing when his youger f/o struggles, until the very last seconds when he takes over and crash in the sea...

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-18 17:59:29 and read 27025 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 38):
Experience, like Lionair when a 15000!!! hours captain does nothing when his youger f/o struggles, until the very last seconds when he takes over and crash in the sea...

First off, there are obviously lousy "experienced" pilots. Can't argue that. As far as Lion Air is concerned, I never comment on an accident until I see the full complete report. In looking at the user profiles, I don't see where many of those posting comments on the appropriateness of 19 year olds in the cockpit are pilots themselves, knowing what the job entails. I am certainly not the brightest guy in the world, but with 25,000 hours flying, most with a major airline, and having trained many, many pilots, many of whom became airline pilots, I think I have a valid opinion on the subject.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: BasilFawlty
Posted 2013-05-18 18:16:59 and read 26686 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 40):
I am certainly not the brightest guy in the world, but with 25,000 hours flying, most with a major airline, and having trained many, many pilots, many of whom became airline pilots, I think I have a valid opinion on the subject.

As long as pilots with many hours of experience at all sorts of airlines still make serious errors causing serious incidents/accidents, experience is absolutely no guarantee for safety in my opinion.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-18 18:25:51 and read 26555 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 42):
As long as pilots with many hours of experience at all sorts of airlines still make serious errors causing serious incidents/accidents, experience is absolutely no guarantee for safety in my opinion.

Other than death and taxes, there are absolutely no guarantees in life. And yes, experienced pilots make mistakes. Experience does not guarantee perfection. To say so, would be absurd. But if you honestly don't think experience means anything, I give up as this discussion has entered into the irrational.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-18 18:32:38 and read 26477 times.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 17):
Don't the RAAF let kids straight from high school go to flight school unlike the USAF/USN? So their pilots would be only a little older than this 19 year old!

AFAIK, the USAF requires a pilot to be an officer and an officer has to have a college degree.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: N766UA
Posted 2013-05-18 18:43:44 and read 26282 times.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 42):
As long as pilots with many hours of experience at all sorts of airlines still make serious errors causing serious incidents/accidents, experience is absolutely no guarantee for safety in my opinion.

But that doesn't make the opposite true. Experience, while not a guarantee, is ALWAYS better than no experience… 100% of the time.

Quoting mayor (Reply 44):
AFAIK, the USAF requires a pilot to be an officer and an officer has to have a college degree.

Correct, you need a 4 year degree. Add on a year for UPT and you've got a bare minimum age of about 23/24. But like I said, completely different scenario and not worth comparing. Military training is nothing like civilian training.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: FlyHossD
Posted 2013-05-18 18:53:56 and read 26215 times.

FWIW, my former carrier - a large Part 121 regional - hired a 19 year old pilot.

She was well qualified and came from a flying family. Before our carrier, she had flown at a Part 135 commuter.

As I recall, she had the letter for the ATP before she turned 21 and began flying captain just a few days after her twenty-third birthday.

Her flying reputation was pretty strong and even the old crusty skippers spoke well of her abilities.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mpdpilot
Posted 2013-05-18 19:33:11 and read 25498 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 34):
I think it was an entirely valid question. You crafted your argument so that anyone who disagrees with you would appear to be in support of the, what, "tearing apart of families," as you said. That's pretty unnecessarily manipulative, unfair, and irrelevant. But by questioning your motivation for arguing in such a manner, I'm the one being insulting?! I really am curious where you learned this stuff now.

Actually it is a very legitimate way of arguing. It isn't manipulative at all, it is something any philosophy major would tell you is a tactic in any argument. So to say that where he or she learned this is insulting since virtually every major university that has a philosophy program teaches it.

Argue on the facts don't insult.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 45):
Correct, you need a 4 year degree. Add on a year for UPT and you've got a bare minimum age of about 23/24. But like I said, completely different scenario and not worth comparing. Military training is nothing like civilian training.

Here is a valid argument to his or her comment.

With that being said, airline training in Europe and in the US are very different so comparing your experience in the US to the training in Europe is like comparing apples to tires as you say.

Also to say that military training is nothing like civilian training is comparing your experiences, I know pilots that have washed out of US Airline programs to go work for the USAF as fighter pilots. USAF training is good don't get me wrong, but there are also fantastic civilian training programs out there, most of which are in Europe or at least are based out of European airlines.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-18 19:35:23 and read 25566 times.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 46):
she had the letter for the ATP before she turned 21

I received my private license at 17 (and no, my parents did not pay for it), my instrument rating at 18 (and no, my parents did not pay for that either) a thousand hours half way through college and my ATP letter at 21 as well prior to entering the USAF. I was very fortunate to have had some excellent opportunities by working hard for some people who offered me some good opportunities, but I certainly was not ready in any way shape or form to sit right seat in a 737 at 19. But then, I am just an average guy.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: jetblueguy22
Posted 2013-05-18 20:00:06 and read 25070 times.

I honestly don't think this is a big deal. One thing I've noticed with pilots is they seem to be more mature than most at the same age. If you walk on my campus you can pretty much point out the aviation students. The maturity level is generally higher. If he meets the requirements for the job, and has completed all his training, I say let him fly. I for sure think being a CFI for a few years is the smarter choice, but that is his decision to make.
Pat

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: N766UA
Posted 2013-05-18 20:10:51 and read 24930 times.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 38):
So to say that where he or she learned this is insulting since virtually every major university that has a philosophy program teaches it.

You guys have weird definitions of "insulting," but if that's actually a style of arguing that's being promoted I'm happy to go ahead and insult it as it accomplishes nothing. I don't see how it matters anyway, it's still not what any of us said, so to insinuate that we would rather have a 19 year old blow up a farming village than fly a jetliner is absurd to an extreme.

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 38):
Argue on the facts don't insult.

How about argue on facts don't insinuate?

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 38):
most of which are in Europe or at least are based out of European airlines.

So, for like the 17th time, can someone shed some light on these programs? I've asked twice already what the plan is for this guy now that he's "hired" at Ryanair.

[Edited 2013-05-18 20:15:36]

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: flightsimer
Posted 2013-05-18 20:13:58 and read 24916 times.

Quoting vio (Reply 8):
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 16):

And yet the worst aviation accident in history was caused by one of the highest, if not the highest seniority (I can't remember exactly) pilot of KLM, which killed over 500 people.

Everyone takes the same test, it shouldn't matter if they are 19 or 50.

And talking about maturity. A little DUI statistic... In 2010, 89% of all Drunk drivers were between 21 and 44 years old with 34% being between 21-24.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: N766UA
Posted 2013-05-18 20:18:45 and read 24851 times.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 42):
A little DUI statistic... In 2010, 89% of all Drunk drivers were between 21 and 44 years old with 34% being between 21-24.

So, if 89% of drunk drivers are 21-44, and, what 65% of pilots are also 21-44, then… all pilots are alcoholics?

I guess that's about right.  

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aaron747
Posted 2013-05-18 20:27:10 and read 24756 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 20):
While I stand by my original comment, I will have to say that I have flown in the jumpseat with Lufthansa and they are absolutely top notch. I am familiar with Lufthansa's ab initio training and if there would be an exception I was comfortable with, they would definitely be it.

ANA, CX, SQ, and several others run similar programs. Are you any less comfortable with the young people they train up? It's fair to say good training/operational standards and the hiring of individuals who can consistently perform to them are equally as important as experience.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-18 20:28:45 and read 24671 times.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 22):
So we are fine with young people flying military jets with weapons capable to tearing lives and families apart and wiping cities off maps, yet someone flying commercial it's an issue.. Wow.

We're talking about, at least, a 4-5 year age difference, for one thing. And, besides that, you do realize that there are other military a/c out there besides fighters and bombers, right? Hope that isn't TOO insulting..........

Quoting zkokq (Reply 29):
Questioning where I learnt to interact, for me that's an insult and rude, as well as not needed.

May seem like it to you, but it was a valid question. If you're too thin-skinned to see that, maybe you shouldn't be in this discussion.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 29):
You think FR is just going to throw him into a cockpit straight away? I don't think they will. He will do his time like everyone else.

And where else would FR put him? Apparently, FR doesn't have a "training program", per se, so I can't see anywhere else for him to sit, other than the right seat. Back in the old days, he might have been an engineer, and, in fact, I've seen some flight engineers on 727s that looked like they just got out of high school.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: flightsimer
Posted 2013-05-18 21:25:56 and read 23999 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 43):

Come on now, didn't you watch Flight? You forgot the Coke...  

My point though, is people are talking about 19 years olds that are not involved in aviation. I don't know, maybe I just give people too much credit. But I know, myself being 20, I won't drink, even when given the opportunity to at a place where I know I wouldn't have to drive and wouldn't even be bothered, because I have too much invested in my career so far and can't afford to be caught underage.

Though, even when I do turn 21, I still don't see me drinking as I just don't have any desire to.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: zkojq
Posted 2013-05-18 23:11:12 and read 22658 times.

Nice to see some young flightcrew. Keep in mind that airliners have two seats up front for good reason.   When most first officers start regular flying they also have a training captain sitting behind them for their first ~30 sectors. I assume that this period is longer for those who have been through an ab-initio program.

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 46):
I don't know, maybe I just give people too much credit. But I know, myself being 20, I won't drink, even when given the opportunity to at a place where I know I wouldn't have to drive and wouldn't even be bothered, because I have too much invested in my career so far and can't afford to be caught underage.

Though, even when I do turn 21, I still don't see me drinking as I just don't have any desire to.

This is a very good attitude. I do similar.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: barney captain
Posted 2013-05-19 00:35:36 and read 21625 times.

I was extremely fortunate to become a Captain at OO at 25, and a Captain at WN by 30. In my humble opinion, experience matters. So does training. So does judgement. These are all elements of a responsible pilot - none of which can be ignored, all of of which must be exercised.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: dstc47
Posted 2013-05-19 01:07:19 and read 21095 times.

I am old enough to remember when the flight attendants were 19 and the flight crew, pilots and engineers, were relatively senior. Perhaps now the grey hairs are all back in the passenger cabin.

Of course many of those guys up front started in WWII, when they were very young indeed and had been tested in ways that flying for an airline does not replicate.

W/C Guy Gibson, who led the Dambuster raid, being commemorated this week, was born in 1918, he was an RAF pilot in 1937. He was only 24 when he commanded 617 squadron and only 26 when he died.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: MFranssen33
Posted 2013-05-19 02:48:32 and read 19613 times.

Younger isn't possible due to the CPL license, so you have to be at least 19 years old. In Europe that was/is the case with the JAR-license.

I self started with 19 years at Tyrolean so he is surely not the only one!   good luck to him!

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: GLAGAZ
Posted 2013-05-19 03:53:46 and read 18662 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):
19 years old is far too young and inexperienced to fly a 737. I don't care how mature you are, experience is experience. I would definitely not put a family member on a jetliner with a 19 year old crew member. Not gonna happen.

Inexperienced in what way? What about a 35 year old who takes up flying at the age of 33? Is he/she any different to the 19 year old?

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2013-05-19 04:05:23 and read 18252 times.

Quoting GLAGAZ (Reply 51):
Inexperienced in what way? What about a 35 year old who takes up flying at the age of 33? Is he/she any different to the 19 year old?

Exactly what I said to myself.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-05-19 04:22:51 and read 17973 times.

Young, I don't care if they have two heads and come from Mars. I still feel that if they are flying the aircraft that I am on, the are qualified. Many older pilots that I have flown with have been just as good as the more recently trained. If you are afraid of flying with young pilots then you should probably find another method of travel.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: planesmart
Posted 2013-05-19 04:49:13 and read 17575 times.

More nerve wracking, could have been the antics of Fred Ladd, a NZ pilot who flew in the 2nd World War, and then commercial aircraft.

A favourite trick with overseas tourists, was to climb aboard the aircraft with dark glasses and white cane, and sit with the passengers. After waiting a few minutes, he would state in a loud voice, that if the pilot didn't turn up soon, he would fly the aircraft himself.

After a few more minutes, he would tap his way to the cockpit, and start fumbling with the controls, by which time, some of the passengers would be bolting for the door.

His autobiography makes a good read.

Back to the thread. My only reservation with a very young f/o, is that they might be less inclined (lack confidence) to challenge a poor or flawed decision by a Captain, though I assume thats part of the training.

In reality, half the time you have no idea who is in the pointy end of a large aircraft.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: alexvk380
Posted 2013-05-19 04:56:59 and read 17432 times.

I don't see a problem, a few of my friends have just come out of training and gone into Ryanair at the age of 21, they all will have similar amounts of experience as this 19 year old. People can't afford to spend their own money gaining more flying experience so they go into airlines like Ryanair with between 200-250 hours. I know when I finish my training I'm going to apply for Ryanair and I'll be 21.
Pilots have or start somewhere.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-19 06:42:55 and read 15835 times.

Quoting GLAGAZ (Reply 51):
Inexperienced in what way? What about a 35 year old who takes up flying at the age of 33? Is he/she any different to the 19 year old?

I wouldn't fly with a 33 year old with only 200 hours either. I checked out as a major airline Captain at 30 with 7000 hours. I look back and realize how much I still had to learn. A 19 year old (or 30 year old for that matter) with 200 hours is flying by rote memory. He has not experienced enough situations in the real flying world to be able to make many of the important decisions. And the argument that older and more experienced pilots still make mistakes is getting old. Yes, they do. Neurosurgeons practicing for 40 years make mistakes too. However, I would much rather have a surgeon with some experience over someone right out of medical school. Experience does matter. While the increasing automation in the cockpits provide for much more protection, when things fall apart, 200 hours just isn't enough. Again, the posters all in favor of 19 year olds with 200 hours don't seem to be experienced pilots. Fly with one in the dark of night in a driving rainstorm in the middle of mountainous terrain with an emergency and then report back.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: TrnsWrld
Posted 2013-05-19 06:57:07 and read 15529 times.

Quoting alexvk380 (Reply 55):

I know when I finish my training I'm going to apply for Ryanair and I'll be 21.
Pilots have or start somewhere.

Lol, might as well start in a multimillion dollar 737 flying your wife and three kids around right?  


There is no denying the safety records of the airlines that do these kind of programs, but still just something about an inexperienced kid as part of the flight crew in such a complex aircraft and environment just doesn't settle easy with me.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-19 06:58:42 and read 15486 times.

Quoting alexvk380 (Reply 55):
Pilots have or start somewhere.

Absolutely, a very accurate statement. Just not in a high performance jetliner!

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-05-19 07:01:58 and read 15466 times.

IMHO, it's not the 19 year old that concerns me; it's the guy that's sitting in the left seat that matters more.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-19 07:07:51 and read 15363 times.

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 57):

IMHO, it's not the 19 year old that concerns me; it's the guy that's sitting in the left seat that matters more.


Who is sitting in the right seat is VERY important. Not only is he a valuable asset who assists the Captain, but more importantly, he is SECOND IN COMMAND in the event something happens to the Captain. The First Officer is not just a gear jerker. I highly value my first officers and the EXPERIENCE they bring to the table. There seems to be a lack of understanding on this thread as to what a FIrst Officer brings to the cockpit. I have flown with very inexperienced First Officers, and I can tell you how much the workload on the Captain increases, particularly when the flying conditions are far from nice.

[Edited 2013-05-19 07:11:08]

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-05-19 07:30:21 and read 14923 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 60):
Who is sitting in the right seat is VERY important. Not only is he a valuable asset who assists the Captain, but more importantly, he is SECOND IN COMMAND in the event something happens to the Captain. The First Officer is not just a gear jerker. I highly value my first officers and the EXPERIENCE they bring to the table. There seems to be a lack of understanding on this thread as to what a FIrst Officer brings to the cockpit. I have flown with very inexperienced First Officers, and I can tell you how much the workload on the Captain increases, particularly when the flying conditions are far from nice.

Calm down and take a chill pill. You're taking the post WAY too out of context.

Frankly, you don't know how many hours this kid has. You're just looking at how old he is, and having a HUGE conniption fit about it. Regardless of what you want to call "experienced," there's no way that RyanAir wouldn't have hired him if he didn't meet their experience qualifications.

I bet you're one of those people that say that regional airline pilots are just a bunch of inexperienced teenagers, too.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-19 07:49:25 and read 14584 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 61):

I am as calm as can be. Thanks though, for your concern.

I am signing off as I have to go fly a trip. I will be especially
calm as I have a very experienced first officer.

 .  

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: pilotanthony
Posted 2013-05-19 07:56:19 and read 14425 times.

hes old enough for the Licences hes old enough for the job...simples

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-05-19 07:58:02 and read 14443 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 62):
I am signing off as I have to go fly a trip. I will be especially
calm as I have a very experienced first officer.

If you're worried about how experienced your FO is, you'd never make it as a check airman.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-19 08:17:56 and read 14136 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 64):

I have been asked at least a dozen times to be a check airman
I will however pass along to the training center
That you don't think I should be one!

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-05-19 08:38:19 and read 13745 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 65):

I have been asked at least a dozen times to be a check airman
I will however pass along to the training center
That you don't think I should be one!

You're taking quotes out of context again. My saying that you'd never make it because you're too scared to fly with inexperienced first officers is COMPLETELY different than saying that you couldn't become one.

You go on and fly, though. You seem to have a better grasp at flying than English comprehension.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: 777STL
Posted 2013-05-19 08:41:21 and read 13721 times.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 10):
I know a 19 year old first officer flying the B777 with KLM. Not a big deal at all.

Why do I find that very hard to believe?

Quoting zkokq (Reply 22):
So we are fine with young people flying military jets with weapons capable to tearing lives and families apart and wiping cities off maps, yet someone flying commercial it's an issue.. Wow.

Here in the US, our military pilots are in their mid to late twenties before they have the chance of seeing combat. Most of them are still in training well into their mid 20s and most of the front line guys are in their late 20s at a minimum.

So no, we don't give kids the capability of "tearing families apart and wiping cities off maps".

Quoting mayor (Reply 35):
AFAIK, the USAF requires a pilot to be an officer and an officer has to have a college degree.

With the exception of CWOs in the Army, that's for the most part true. Your average USAF/Navy pilot is at least 22 before he even enters flight school, let alone flying something fast, let alone participating in combat.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-19 09:01:27 and read 13403 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 66):
You're taking quotes out of context again. My saying that you'd never make it because you're too scared to fly with inexperienced first officers is COMPLETELY different than saying that you couldn't become one.

You go on and fly, though. You seem to have a better grasp at flying than English comprehension.

I have very thick skin. However since you think I have a poor grasp of English comprehension (and by the way, my wife would probably agree with you), I want to clarify something. I am afraid to fly in the cabin as a passenger with my family with a highly inexperienced pilot. In the cockpit, I am not afraid to fly with anyone and can handle anyone you want to pair me with. I am clearly making a mistake in trying to comment on a forum from a career perspective in a thread that doesn't want to hear from anyone who has spent his whole career in this industry. So, in conclusion, in addition to having a poor grasp of English (I was born and raised in the US) I obviously don't have a valid opinion. And surprisingly, I am posting this very calmly without the need for a chill pill.

[Edited 2013-05-19 09:01:53]

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: TrnsWrld
Posted 2013-05-19 09:09:58 and read 13228 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 60):
Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 57):

IMHO, it's not the 19 year old that concerns me; it's the guy that's sitting in the left seat that matters more.


Who is sitting in the right seat is VERY important. Not only is he a valuable asset who assists the Captain, but more importantly, he is SECOND IN COMMAND in the event something happens to the Captain. The First Officer is not just a gear jerker. I highly value my first officers and the EXPERIENCE they bring to the table. There seems to be a lack of understanding on this thread as to what a FIrst Officer brings to the cockpit. I have flown with very inexperienced First Officers, and I can tell you how much the workload on the Captain increases, particularly when the flying conditions are far from nice.

I wasn't the one that said that I think you quoted the wrong name. I personally agree with you both the captain and FO are equally important in the flight deck. That was Goldenshield that said that.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-19 09:12:43 and read 13162 times.

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 69):

You are correct. My sincere apologies. I did not select the text properly. That's what happens when you are INEXPERIENCED on airliners.net!

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-05-19 09:17:39 and read 13079 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 68):
I am afraid to fly in the cabin as a passenger with my family with a highly inexperienced pilot.

Then you better not fly as a passenger at all, because---except for the likes of AA, where it seems that everyone one of those pilots is due to retire any day now---you don't know how old the crew is, or how much experience they have until you step on-board and ask.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 68):
I am not afraid to fly with anyone and can handle anyone you want to pair me with. I am clearly making a mistake in trying to comment on a forum from a career perspective in a thread that doesn't want to hear from anyone who has spent his whole career in this industry.

I have no problem with your experience. In fact, I admire it, and I'm sure you're a damn fine pilot; however, it's this paranoia of flying with young(er) people (regardless of experience) that I get from your posts that concerns me. You want the best pilots flying the line, right? Well, they have to learn it somewhere, from someone; outside of the military route, they can't just be flying Cessnas to learn these things. They need experienced pilots like YOU to teach them that, to MAKE them better pilots; it's the same thing that they would have achieved had they gone the military route (assuming non-single man aircraft.)

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-19 09:28:27 and read 12877 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 71):
I have no problem with your experience. In fact, I admire it, and I'm sure you're a damn fine pilot; however, it's this paranoia of flying with young(er) people (regardless of experience) that I get from your posts that concerns me. You want the best pilots flying the line, right? Well, they have to learn it somewhere, from someone; outside of the military route, they can't just be flying Cessnas to learn these things. They need experienced pilots like YOU to teach them that, to MAKE them better pilots; it's the same thing that they would have achieved had they gone the military route (assuming non-single man aircraft.)

You certainly have some valid points. And I certainly do not believe that you have to be 40 years old and have 10,000 hours to be qualified to fly a 737/A320, etc. If that were to be the case, most cockpits would be empty. The balance is obviously somewhere between 19 and ..... There needs to be stepping stones in aviation where pilots progress from training to the majors. It's not the age itself, it's not having the experience. Its all really a moot point, since there will be so many pilots retiring in the not so distant future, that the bringing into major cockpits of low time pilots will be the norm. The automation of the modern cockpits will help, especially with situational awareness, etc. However, it is simply my humble opinion that safety may very well suffer going forward. I sincerely hope not, as this is a profession I truly love.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: N821NW
Posted 2013-05-19 09:34:39 and read 12760 times.

I for one think that he might be better (in some cases) then a more experienced pilot because:
a) He is fresh out of school so the normal and emergency procedures will still be fresh in his mind.
b) Since he is new and (probably   ) wants to keep his job he will most likely respect the rules and procedures to millimeter.
c) More experience pilots sometime have a HUGE ego and think that a) they know better then everybody else, b) think that they will never make a mistake, c) all of the above.

Of course this is just my very personal   



Oh and I am new here as new member but it has been 2 years I've been reading the forums, so I just want to say hello      

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-19 09:39:02 and read 12712 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 72):
The automation of the modern cockpits will help,

Well, you've heard of the "cockpit of the future" haven't you? It will have a pilot and a dog in it. The pilot is there to watch over things and the dog is there to bite him (or her) in case they try to touch anything.  

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-05-19 09:46:14 and read 12586 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 72):
The automation of the modern cockpits will help, especially with situational awareness, etc. However, it is simply my humble opinion that safety may very well suffer going forward. I sincerely hope not, as this is a profession I truly love.

I agree, but that said, there will be a LOT of experienced guys and gals from the regionals filling that void.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-19 09:49:22 and read 12565 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 74):
Well, you've heard of the "cockpit of the future" haven't you? It will have a pilot and a dog in it. The pilot is there to watch over things and the dog is there to bite him (or her) in case they try to touch anything.  

I have heard that. It would actually work quite well is my guess. But did you notice they are planning on using a more experienced dog versus a puppy! Case closed!  

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-19 10:11:05 and read 12187 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 75):
I agree, but that said, there will be a LOT of experienced guys and gals from the regionals filling that void.

That said, who will replace the pilots on the high performance regional jets? The airlines and policy makers in the US will have to do some serious soul searching and planning for the future. They cannot cut corners. A lot of money will have to be spent to recruit and PROPERLY train the next generation of pilots. That, is where I have the most concern.

[Edited 2013-05-19 10:11:54]

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-19 10:16:06 and read 12063 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 76):
But did you notice they are planning on using a more experienced dog versus a puppy! Case closed!

Only because they're paper trained.......the dog, not the pilot

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Goldenshield
Posted 2013-05-19 10:22:25 and read 11970 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 77):
That said, who will replace the pilots on the high performance regional jets?

The large regionals have already started to shore up their future ranks by signing agreements with aviation univerisities and other accredited flying schools. These companies are the ones that are going to be most hurt, since they do have the largest pool or employees, largest fleets of aircraft, and largest number of flights. Even if there is shrinkage in those numbers, there's still going to be a sizeable vacuum, but I doubt it's going to be as big as people predict. Plus, there will always be older pilots (regardless of seniority) to become check airmen since they probably wouldn't have enough time left in their career to make a transition to the majors worthwhile.

Take a look at the captain of the Dash-8 that bellied yesterday. He's gotta be in his high 50's/early 60's. He's clearly a lifer, but I wouldn't hold that against him.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: falstaff
Posted 2013-05-19 10:37:58 and read 11778 times.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 7):
Not everyone is the same at 18/19. Some kids are mature and ready for the responsibility at that age and some people are never really ready for it. I don't think the number of people on the aircraft should really make a difference either.

I work with 18 year olds every day and I have some that I wouldn't trust to cut my grass and I have others that are mature beyond their years and can work circles around 40 year old mechanics. It really depends on the person not the age of the person.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 1):
I don't think it's a record. Lots of airlines with cadet schemes (BA, Aer Lingus etc) have had plenty of 19 year old FO's in the past.

I think Alan Carter was 19 when he started with Dan Air. Some of you may have heard of him, he writes a lot of articles for Airways Magazine. He used to be a 744 captain with Virgin Atlantic, but does contract flying now.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-19 10:50:41 and read 11565 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 78):
Only because they're paper trained.......the dog, not the pilot

Now. now! I can proudly say I have been paper trained since shortly after I graduated college.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-19 11:03:15 and read 11389 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 80):
I work with 18 year olds every day and I have some that I wouldn't trust to cut my grass and I have others that are mature beyond their years and can work circles around 40 year old mechanics. It really depends on the person not the age of the person

It's not the age. It's the flying experience.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2013-05-19 11:10:52 and read 11302 times.

Not uncommon in the military. I was in the right seat of a C130 at 18 - in Vietnam.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: twincessna340a
Posted 2013-05-19 11:13:16 and read 11251 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 43):
So, if 89% of drunk drivers are 21-44, and, what 65% of pilots are also 21-44, then… all pilots are alcoholics?

According to those numbers 57.85% of all pilots would be alcoholics    .

Quoting N821NW (Reply 73):
I for one think that he might be better (in some cases) then a more experienced pilot because:
a) He is fresh out of school so the normal and emergency procedures will still be fresh in his mind.
b) Since he is new and (probably   ) wants to keep his job he will most likely respect the rules and procedures to millimeter.
c) More experience pilots sometime have a HUGE ego and think that a) they know better then everybody else, b) think that they will never make a mistake, c) all of the above.

a) Knowing a job certainly doesn't imply doing a job, especially being a pilot.
b) Flying is more than just following the rules, it's also and more importantly about judgement calls. That comes only with experience. Also, office politics and being a "company man" have caused accidents, both civilian and military.
c) More experienced pilots DO know better than most others, and know they can and have made a mistake...at least the good ones and most of them are. Are there some older pilots that are cocky and reckless, sure. Most of the people that are cocky, reckless, and have the invincibility attitude are teenagers and people in their early twenties. (Citing the hundreds if not thousands of behavioral science studies that have been completed over the past 15-20 years).

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-19 11:49:44 and read 11046 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 80):
It really depends on the person not the age of the person.

I think what's missing in this whole argument or perhaps misunderstood, is that 19, he could be mature beyond his years, BUT, at that age, how much experience could he really have? It's the experience level that counts, not the age, but at that age, he's not going to have that much experience.........hours, yes......but in what?


As soon as people see that age of 19, they're going to assume (I know, not always the best thing) that the experience level just isn't there. There are enough people frightened to fly, nowadays, without making it worse. If the pax happen to see a young man that LOOKS too young, come out of the cockpit, it's not going to raise the confidence of the pax up very much.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: PHAON
Posted 2013-05-19 12:08:21 and read 11043 times.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 10):

The youngest 777 FO is 32, the youngest SO (cruise pilot/ IRO) is 25. KLM has had 19 year old SO in the past, but not recently.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-05-19 12:26:32 and read 10897 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 82):
It's not the age. It's the flying experience.

So an 18yo with ten years' flying experience is inferior to a 25yo with eight years flying experience?

If he's 19 and sitting at the controls of a 737, then he must have a lot of flying experience.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-19 13:03:45 and read 10737 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 87):
So an 18yo with ten years' flying experience is inferior

Maybe not a good example.......they would have started flying at EIGHT??

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 87):
If he's 19 and sitting at the controls of a 737, then he must have a lot of flying experience.

The most he could have would be 3 years, right? Again, are we talking about one of MO's publicity stunts or the real thing?

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: N821NW
Posted 2013-05-19 13:07:37 and read 10736 times.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 84):
c) More experienced pilots DO know better than most others, and know they can and have made a mistake...at least the good ones and most of them are. Are there some older pilots that are cocky and reckless, sure. Most of the people that are cocky, reckless, and have the invincibility attitude are teenagers and people in their early twenties. (Citing the hundreds if not thousands of behavioral science studies that have been completed over the past 15-20 years).

I don't know but in a lot of the MAYDAY shows I have watched over the years if the cause of the crash was pilot error 60%-70% of the time it where "old and experienced" pilots that made them...again my opinion is my opinion and nobody will change it anytime soon and your opinion is your opinion and probably nobody will make it change anytime soon either.

Now lets see how badly    I get...

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-19 13:18:36 and read 10685 times.

Quoting N821NW (Reply 89):
I don't know but in a lot of the MAYDAY shows I have watched over the years if the cause of the crash was pilot error 60%-70% of the time it where "old and experienced" pilots that made them...

Could it be because the odds are with something happening to someone with MORE hours and the fact that there's just more pilots out there with more experience than those without?

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: N821NW
Posted 2013-05-19 13:49:59 and read 10569 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 90):

Look mayor I have my opinion, you have yours and leave it at that.

The only reason I'm not going in a "    " with you is because I do not want to be banned LOL xD

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2013-05-19 14:02:28 and read 10491 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 2):

I'm not sure what is worse, you saying that or Mayor Bloomberg saying "18 and 19 year old kids are to immature to handle semi automatic firearms. I joined the Marine Corps at 17. I know many Marines who saw their first combat action not long after turning 18 and they handled themselves very well. Just because one 18 year old is too immature to fly commercial doesn't mean the next guy is either.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-05-19 14:10:18 and read 10441 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 88):
Maybe not a good example.......they would have started flying at EIGHT??

Yes. Little kids take flying lessons. There are some kids who start flying very young.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2013-05-19 14:18:29 and read 10391 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 90):

Makes me wonder just how many of these young pilots have been in accidents ? And how bad/good their accident rate is?
Imperical evidence has to be somewhere.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-19 14:21:42 and read 10382 times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 94):
Yes. Little kids take flying lessons. There are some kids who start flying very young.

I realize that, but even starting that young, there not going to get the hours or experience needed to fly a 737, are they? At what age can they get their commercial ticket and multi-engine?

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: 71Zulu
Posted 2013-05-19 14:37:20 and read 10351 times.

Back in the DL hiring spree a few years ago, many RJ new hires went straight to the right seat international 757/767ER out of JFK. Not 19 years old, but there were some hired in their mid 20's I'm sure.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 95):
Makes me wonder just how many of these young pilots have been in accidents ? And how bad/good their accident rate is?
Imperical evidence has to be somewhere.

The CO FO that wrecked the DC9 at DEN in 1987 wasn't that young (26 I think) and had about 3000 hrs in turboprop, but only 36 hrs in the DC9 when he crashed it. The Capt was low time on the DC9 too, 166 hrs and only 33 hrs as Capt in type.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: NBGSkyGod
Posted 2013-05-19 15:38:08 and read 10133 times.

Here is what I have to say about age...The first time I stepped into a control tower cab and talked to airplanes i was 19. I became a control tower supervisor shortly before I turned 20. With as much responsibility maybe more, than the kid flying. I think, as long as the airline feels he is qualified, then he can fly, and may he have a long and distinguished career.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-19 15:44:20 and read 10102 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 76):
Quoting mayor (Reply 74):
Well, you've heard of the "cockpit of the future" haven't you? It will have a pilot and a dog in it. The pilot is there to watch over things and the dog is there to bite him (or her) in case they try to touch anything.

I have heard that. It would actually work quite well is my guess. But did you notice they are planning on using a more experienced dog versus a puppy! Case closed!

The dog may be sitting in the captain's seat one day!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chrzpnL1OEM

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: ATCtower
Posted 2013-05-19 21:36:23 and read 9714 times.

Those of you who are scared about a young pilot should take a look at American ATC.... I would venture a guess that well over 50% of the controllers in the US right now are under 30. Some of these jobs are better staffed by people who are young with fresh minds. That is not saying that the older people do not introduce experience that is invaluable but younger people are not the evil...

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: passedv1
Posted 2013-05-19 21:37:39 and read 9712 times.

This is why me and my family do not fly non US major airlines...I don't care how good looking the FA's are, or how much better the service is. Experience matters, and you cannot possibly have enough at 19.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: opethfan
Posted 2013-05-19 23:16:35 and read 9544 times.

I really can't think of much else to say other than "if they've passed all of the needed training and qualifications to be sat in that right seat, to doubt this person's expertise would be to also doubt the expertise of every other person to have ever sat in that seat."

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: NBGSkyGod
Posted 2013-05-20 04:17:20 and read 9198 times.

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 103):
This is why me and my family do not fly non US major airlines...I don't care how good looking the FA's are, or how much better the service is. Experience matters, and you cannot possibly have enough at 19.

Here is what I have to say about that...Some of the most professional, cautious (as in knowing their limits), knowledgeable pilots I have ever met have been Captains and F/Os under the age of 25. Age is simply a number constructed by society. While there are developmental issues to contend with, those vary with everyone. I have no problems flying with someone who looks like their mommy dropped them off at work with a bagged lunch, as long has he knows what he is doing.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: draigonair
Posted 2013-05-20 05:01:59 and read 9076 times.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 10):
I know a 19 year old first officer flying the B777 with KLM. Not a big deal at all.

Haha yeh right...if he told you then he is lying  

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: passedv1
Posted 2013-05-20 20:40:16 and read 8323 times.

Like I said...experience matters. If nothing else, experience ensures that you have a more comprehensive view of what a pilot is all about. The analogy I offer is the difference between lending money to someone with good credit, bad credit, and no credit. Taking a low time pilot and putting him at the controls of a jet is like a bank giving a mortgage to someone with no credit. You just don't know what you have.

It could probably be a whole other thread, but a check ride is easy compared to real life when things start going sideways. It cannot be the only indicator of someone's qualification to be in the seat.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-05-20 20:52:48 and read 8293 times.

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 104):
It could probably be a whole other thread, but a check ride is easy compared to real life when things start going sideways. It cannot be the only indicator of someone's qualification to be in the seat.

Then it's a good thing that it isn't.

-Mir

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2013-05-20 21:22:41 and read 8250 times.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 71):
they have to learn it somewhere, from someone; outside of the military route, they can't just be flying Cessnas to learn these things. They need experienced pilots like YOU to teach them that, to MAKE them better pilots;

Agreed.

Quoting N821NW (Reply 73):

I for one think that he might be better (in some cases) then a more experienced pilot because:
a) He is fresh out of school so the normal and emergency procedures will still be fresh in his mind.
b) Since he is new and (probably   ) wants to keep his job he will most likely respect the rules and procedures to millimeter.

A) Commercial pilots, atleast in the USA, go through recurrent training every so often, hell, many long haul pilots have to fly the simulator every so often because they don't get enough landings in during a certain period of time to remain qualified.
B) Going by the rules and procedures or being safe can be totally opposite things. Half the time (maybe less) safety and P & P cannot coexist.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mandala499
Posted 2013-05-20 21:23:52 and read 8273 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):

19 years old is far too young and inexperienced to fly a 737.

I suggest you avoid almost every single airline in Europe...
Even BA (or was it GB Airways in its BA Franchise days) had a 21yr old Captain on the 320.
I also suggest you avoid SQ, QF, CX, etc... since they put guys fresh from flying school to widebodied aircraft (as cruise F/O... hey, did someone mention AF447?)

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 39):
I was very fortunate to have had some excellent opportunities by working hard for some people who offered me some good opportunities, but I certainly was not ready in any way shape or form to sit right seat in a 737 at 19. But then, I am just an average guy.

That's your problem/decision/right...
Just because others don't do it the same way as you do, does not mean they're bad.

In the meantime, I'll enjoy flying on a carrier that hires 19yr olds to the 320... and have had a stellar safety record... oh hang on... make that several.

It's all about the training and checks you do... have crappy training and checks, even older guys with more hours screw up.

Mandala499

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Mir
Posted 2013-05-21 00:34:17 and read 8087 times.

Quoting sancho99504 (Reply 106):
B) Going by the rules and procedures or being safe can be totally opposite things. Half the time (maybe less) safety and P & P cannot coexist.

I'd be hard-pressed to think of a situation where one would have to operate contrary to policies and procedures in order to be safe. There may be times when policies allow something but the pilots might not deem it safe, but that's a different matter (you'd still be complying with policies and procedures by not going to their limits).

-Mir

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2013-05-21 05:19:32 and read 7791 times.

One of the instructors I've flown with was 19 years oldat the time, almost 20 years old.

He started flight training on his 15th birthday.

On his 16th birthday, he got his PPL and also his ratings for MEL, IFR. He had over 500 hours at that point, 300 of it in multi-engine piston and turbo-props up to a Beech King Air 350. He also had almost 100 hours in IFR - purposely flying in clouds and overcast days with his instructors.

On his 18th birthday, he made his first commercial flight as PIC of a Lear 25. He had over 1,800 hours at that point, over 900 of turbine (jet) time.

Before he was 19, he had his A320 and B737 type ratings.

He crossed over 2,500 hours by the time he turned 20.

All it took was a lot of time, and a lot of his father's money. When he turned 20, he was able to apply to passenger airlines, and was quickly accepted by a regional owned by a major US airline to fly CRJ-700.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-21 09:26:33 and read 7487 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 109):

He may be the exception, rather than the rule. He may not.




Reading this entire thread, something keeps nagging me, lurking.............considering what airline we're talking about, COULD (I said could) this be one of their publicity stunts?

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: sancho99504
Posted 2013-05-21 10:19:14 and read 7383 times.

Quoting Mir (Reply 108):

I won't disagree with you because you're a smart individual and you have provided good input in the forums in the couple years I've been here. Some airlines have policies which strictly limit hand flying, which is definitely an unsafe practice. If the autopilot fails at 39,000 feet and the pilots have gone complacent due to lack of recent hand flying experience could lead to deadly consequences. I mean, you have one policy which tells you to do "x" while common sense tells you to do "g".

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-05-21 10:37:27 and read 7354 times.

I am amazed by most of what is said in this thread. I would expect Joe Public, that knows nothing of aviation to balk at flying with such a young crew-member, but not a bunch of so-called informed readers.

For this young gentleman to achieve such a level at such a young age, he had to have jumped through many hoops, and met very high standards. Congratulations to him!

It also means that while all of his mates were doing "teen stuff", he was at home studying.

If he is successful in training at Ryanair, it means he has achieved those very high standards. His level of knowledge in just about every facet of aviation has been tested and met. Likewise with his flying capability, in just about every imaginable situation.

So what's the big deal? Experience? Where do you expect him to get experience. Teaching students at a flying school? Towing gliders? Hauling freight in the arctic? None of this will help him at Ryanair, and I am going to guess that most of this is harder than flying Boeing's finest, through heavily controlled airspace, beside an experienced Captain. His standards will be continually tested and if not met, he will be retrained.

When this young lad is 25, and looking at an upgrade, he will have had excellent experience flying the very aircraft he will command, in the conditions he knows, to places he has seen hundreds of times. Sounds safe to me!

The fact that some very respectable airlines on the earth are doing this as well, indicates to me that safety is not a factor.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: PH-BFA
Posted 2013-05-21 10:44:28 and read 7325 times.

'Even BA (or was it GB Airways in its BA Franchise days) had a 21yr old Captain on the 320.'

Could you provide us a link / source?

PH-BFA

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: David L
Posted 2013-05-21 12:10:03 and read 7193 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 112):
I would expect Joe Public, that knows nothing of aviation to balk at flying with such a young crew-member, but not a bunch of so-called informed readers.

My thoughts exactly. The idea of aviation enthusiasts dismissing some of the world's most reputable airlines on the basis of a perceived, arbitrary issue "does not compute". This won't mean a lot to most A.netters but I'm reminded of one Mr. Cholmondley Warner.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Q
Posted 2013-05-21 12:14:44 and read 7166 times.

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 113):
http://69.64.153.208/aviation-forums...eneral_aviation/read.main/2398348/

Q

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-21 12:57:25 and read 7084 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 107):

It is simply my opinion. Nothing more.

May I humbly inquire as to how much experience you have in large transport aircraft for which you base your opinion?

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Braniff747SP
Posted 2013-05-21 13:32:58 and read 7001 times.

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 100):

This is why me and my family do not fly non US major airlines...I don't care how good looking the FA's are, or how much better the service is. Experience matters, and you cannot possibly have enough at 19.

Obviously you don't go anywhere then.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-05-21 14:12:56 and read 6912 times.

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 104):
It could probably be a whole other thread, but a check ride is easy compared to real life when things start going sideways. It cannot be the only indicator of someone's qualification to be in the seat.

The only way to find out how someone is going to react in a real emergency is to put them in a real emergency.

The sims and checkrides don't cut it. You put a pilot in a sim and tell him to take off and he already knows that SOMETHING (most likely an engine at V1) is going to go wrong. So he's not going to be caught off-guard when it happens.

The trouble is that there is no way to test someone in a real emergency other than putting them in a real emergency. And that is costly and logistically difficult, not to mention the paperwork hassles.

And no, I don't fly planes. I'm a doctor. I have lots of experience with life-and-death emergencies, both real and simulated. No matter how realistic, when you are in a simulation, you know it's "just" a simulation. Of course, in medicine, real-life emergencies happen frequently (multiple times a day in some specialties), so you have ample opportunity to learn by doing. By contrast, most airline pilots will NEVER have to handle a true emergency in their entire careers.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-05-21 14:19:30 and read 6896 times.

Does anyone have any studies to back up that 19 year olds are more dangerous pilots (vs older pilots with just as much experience?) Given that a person isn't completely new to flying, I've heard (so I could be totally off the money) that many new pilots are very very safe and complacency (that usually attacks more experienced pilots) is what causes a lot of accidents

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: PH-BFA
Posted 2013-05-21 14:23:46 and read 6881 times.

'http://69.64.153.208/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/2398348/'

That is 25 years not 21 years

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: PassedV1
Posted 2013-05-21 16:22:22 and read 6760 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 107):
I suggest you avoid almost every single airline in Europe...
Even BA (or was it GB Airways in its BA Franchise days) had a 21yr old Captain on the 320.
I also suggest you avoid SQ, QF, CX, etc... since they put guys fresh from flying school to widebodied aircraft (as cruise F/O... hey, did someone mention AF447?)

I do.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 112):
Teaching students at a flying school? Towing gliders? Hauling freight in the arctic? None of this will help him at Ryanair, and I am going to guess that most of this is harder than flying Boeing's finest, through heavily controlled airspace, beside an experienced Captain. His standards will be continually tested and if not met, he will be retrained.

I completely disagree. You cannot learn to fly at an airline. Flight Instructing, towing gliders,and hauling freight is the exact kind of experience you need. If I owned a 737, I would take a 2,000 hour freight hauler any day of the week over somebody with 5,000 hours in the right seat of a 737 and essentially zero other flying exposure. This is the difference between AF447 or Colgan 3407 and US 1549. The skills Sully used that day were not learned in an Airbus I gurantee you.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 117):
Obviously you don't go anywhere then.

Last time I checked, the big 3 US Airlines go to just about anywhere most people would ever care to go.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-05-21 17:39:50 and read 6656 times.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
I completely disagree. You cannot learn to fly at an airline.

Then what you are saying is that everyone new to an airline starts at the same spot, whether 19 years old or 40 years old ... as outside the airline, you "cannot learn to fly at an airline" as you state. So what do you think a 40 year old brings to the table, that a 19 year old does not? Neither, "cannot learn to fly at an airline".

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
Flight Instructing, towing gliders,and hauling freight is the exact kind of experience you need.

Oh? As many on here know, I am a Line Indoctrination Training Captain on the B767. What experience do you think candidates need, to fly a B767, that they would learn instructing, towing or hauling freight ... that they would not have learned in the right seat of the B737?

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
If I owned a 737, I would take a 2,000 hour freight hauler any day of the week over somebody with 5,000 hours in the right seat of a 737 and essentially zero other flying exposure.

There are a lot in the hiring / training / checking department that have different views on experience and the 2000 hour freight hauler (for example). Namely, often bad habits have to be unlearned. It has been found most often with candidates coming from an environment where supervision is not stellar. Like freight hauling in the arctic, for example. Or single pilot charter operations.

That is why the Cadet Program is favoured by many respected, and safe airlines. They have direct supervision of the pilot right from Hour One, and can mould him/her as they see fit. To date, there has never been an accident caused by the inexperience of one of these Cadets.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
This is the difference between AF447 or Colgan 3407 and US 1549.

It would be improper to critique any of the three accidents here. And yes, you can critique and find faults with all three. But you will note that these incidents, and many more, have changed the way we do business.

Let's use AF447 as an example. Pilots are now trained in high altitude FULL stall recovery. Up to that point, only APPROACH to stall was trained and tested. I have been in the simulator during this new training with all pilots, many with over 20,000 hours ... and it was a real eye opener. Some recovered safely on the first try, some did not! It was not in any way related to experience.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: A320FlyGuy
Posted 2013-05-21 18:59:48 and read 6570 times.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 10):
I know a 19 year old first officer flying the B777 with KLM. Not a big deal at all.

  

That strikes me as being odd...how would a 19 year old be in the right seat on a 777....did he start his flight training while he was still in diapers?

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: PassedV1
Posted 2013-05-22 00:53:07 and read 6398 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 122):
Then what you are saying is that everyone new to an airline starts at the same spot, whether 19 years old or 40 years old ... as outside the airline, you "cannot learn to fly at an airline" as you state. So what do you think a 40 year old brings to the table, that a 19 year old does not? Neither, "cannot learn to fly at an airline".

Age only matters in the way that it limits his possible experience. If you have someone who is 19, there is no way he has accumulated enough experience that he should be flying an airliner. If a pilot is 40, then you need to take the extra step in looking at their resume.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 122):
There are a lot in the hiring / training / checking department that have different views on experience and the 2000 hour freight hauler (for example). Namely, often bad habits have to be unlearned. It has been found most often with candidates coming from an environment where supervision is not stellar. Like freight hauling in the arctic, for example. Or single pilot charter operations.

That is why the Cadet Program is favoured by many respected, and safe airlines. They have direct supervision of the pilot right from Hour One, and can mould him/her as they see fit. To date, there has never been an accident caused by the inexperience of one of these Cadets.

You mean bad habits like pushing down during a stall recovery?

As to why so many airlines like the cadet program, it's because airline training departments need measurable outcomes and in the things that they measure, I will concede that cadets that have been doing it the "Air Canada", or whatever airline way from day one of training will do better in those measurable outcomes, and will make those cubical Captains happy.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 122):
Oh? As many on here know, I am a Line Indoctrination Training Captain on the B767. What experience do you think candidates need, to fly a B767, that they would learn instructing, towing or hauling freight ... that they would not have learned in the right seat of the B737?

Wow, I hope i'm reading your post wrong, but I think that arrogance that emanates from most airline school houses might be rubbing off on you.

You cannot see how someone with experience outside your school house could bring something to the table that you (your school house collectively) did not teach him? really? wow.

I have been a mere line pilot for the past 15 years and I can tell you that I have never been less sharp with regards to basic stick and rudder skills then I am after being in airliners all of these years.

When I got to the airlines I had over 2,000 hours flight instructing. What could I have offered you? Well, I could fly a CAT I ILS nearly down to minimums with nothing but a compass, an OBS, and a TACH if it wasn't too windy. "Partial Panel" in an airliner means "full panel" to someone instructing in a Cessna 172. If one of the pilots of AF447 had lots of partial panel time like all instrument instructors do, I can pretty much gurantee they would have recognized the problem immediatelly. (as long as they hadn't been flying airliners for too long yet)

A freight pilot is used to things going sideways. It takes practice to handle emergencies, somebody with 10,000 hours flying freight in Alaska has got a lot more experience with things going sideways then somebody with 10,000 hours flying airline transports. Get him up to speed on your procedures, and he will have a lot of lessons that you could learn from.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 122):
It would be improper to critique any of the three accidents here. And yes, you can critique and find faults with all three. But you will note that these incidents, and many more, have changed the way we do business.

Let's use AF447 as an example. Pilots are now trained in high altitude FULL stall recovery. Up to that point, only APPROACH to stall was trained and tested. I have been in the simulator during this new training with all pilots, many with over 20,000 hours ... and it was a real eye opener. Some recovered safely on the first try, some did not! It was not in any way related to experience.

Why would it be improper? Let's just say it, AF447, Colgan 3407, the indian airline FO that couldn't recover the jet at cruise, etc. were all because of a lack of BASIC stick and rudder skills. It is these basic stick and rudder skills is what you CANNOT learn flying a 737.

As far as your stall comment, Up to that point only approach to stalls was trained and tested...and the stall recovery was simply wrong AT THE AIRLINES. When I started flying airliners, I had this "bad habbit" of pushing forward to break the stall during a stall recovery, a habbit I HAD TO BREAK. An experience similar to other former instructors. I learned to keep back pressure...even adding it sometimes...adding full power...and let the airplane "fly out of the stall." I even questioned airline instructors about this technique...getting some variation of the "you shall comply" speech. So me, and all the former instructors complied. Now, after killing a few hundred people, the former GA instructors are vindicated, and now I am happy doing what I would have done in the first place.

Cadets and Airlines with Cadets do fine safety wise because thankfully, things very rarely go wrong. The chances of something going wrong in the first couple of years when new cadets have virtually ZERO experience is extremely remote. Cadets no doubt do better in airline simulator scenarios because they have only learned one way. Former instructors/freight-dogs actually have options in their minds they need to contemplate. Cadets do great as long as it fits one of the profiles (i.e. Engine Failure at V1). Fail airspeed indications at cruise...HANG ON! Glider pilot Airline Captain has dual engine flame-out on climb-out...everybody lives. Did the difference in experience matter? I think that it did.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: planesarecool
Posted 2013-05-22 00:59:07 and read 6405 times.

A 20-year old from the same flying school started flying 744's for Air Atlanta last year...

http://metro.co.uk/2012/06/27/jumbo-...ngest-at-just-20-years-old-483000/

Quoting passedv1 (Reply 100):
This is why me and my family do not fly non US major airlines...I don't care how good looking the FA's are, or how much better the service is. Experience matters, and you cannot possibly have enough at 19.

That's fine by me, the fewer ignorant half-wits like yourself I have sitting behind me, the better!

Besides, having done a fair amount of my flying in the USA, I wouldn't trust half of the people I shared the airspace with with a paper plane, let alone a real one! I regularly flew into an airport that trained European pilots from zero hours, yet all but one reported incident in my time there involved your very own 'experienced' pilots.

Regards,
Just another inexperienced 22-year old 737 driver

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: PH-BFA
Posted 2013-05-22 02:03:07 and read 6338 times.

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 123):
I know a 19 year old first officer flying the B777 with KLM. Not a big deal at all.

That is a second officer (Cruise Relief Pilot) only flying above 20,000'

Quoting planesarecool (Reply 125):
A 20-year old from the same flying school started flying 744's for Air Atlanta last year...

Again, a second officer (Cruise Relief Pilot), only flying above 20,000'

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: GLAGAZ
Posted 2013-05-22 05:11:48 and read 6167 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):
I would definitely not put a family member on a jetliner with a 19 year old crew member. Not gonna happen.

Just out of interest. How do you achieve this? Do you demand access to the flight deck before departure and ask for their passports so you can see their date of birth?

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Braniff747SP
Posted 2013-05-22 06:33:20 and read 6071 times.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
Last time I checked, the big 3 US Airlines go to just about anywhere most people would ever care to go.

What a ridiculous US-centric viewpoint. The notion that US carriers go everywhere is simply absurd.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-22 06:56:29 and read 6039 times.

What's the issue? In combat, pilots peak at age 17 (or at least what I read when I was 17...).   

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 84):
According to those numbers 57.85% of all pilots would be alcoholics

Based on my experience with pilots, the rate of alcoholism is higher.   

Quoting dstc47 (Reply 49):

I am old enough to remember when the flight attendants were 19 and the flight crew, pilots and engineers, were relatively senior. Perhaps now the grey hairs are all back in the passenger cabin.

   So true.

Quoting dstc47 (Reply 49):
Of course many of those guys up front started in WWII, when they were very young indeed and had been tested in ways that flying for an airline does not replicate.

I honor our vetrans. But man do they do a bunch of wear and tear on aircraft when they have flashbacks. DL was hiring a ton of ex-navy and they do thrust transients that are *hard* on the engines...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 93):
Quoting mayor (Reply 88):
Maybe not a good example.......they would have started flying at EIGHT??

Yes. Little kids take flying lessons. There are some kids who start flying very young.

I know two kids who started high school with pilots licenses and had all the commercial certs by graduation. None that started at 8, but why not start early? One of my friends, a police officer, is teaching his 11 year old to drive 'just in case' and will probably put the kid in a plane by 13. Some kids are ready early.

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 126):
Again, a second officer (Cruise Relief Pilot), only flying above 20,000'

And? If it hits the fan, that pilot will put the plane on the ground.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-22 09:14:34 and read 5900 times.

Quoting GLAGAZ (Reply 127):

It is extremely easy. I only fly on certain carriers. Having been
in the industry over 30 years I know which carriers I have confidence in.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: PH-BFA
Posted 2013-05-22 09:34:39 and read 5872 times.

'And? If it hits the fan, that pilot will put the plane on the ground.'

A) second officer is not allowed to fly below 20,000'..
B) even if there is no other choice (cpt and f/o incapacitated) and he has to 'put it down' it will be tricky as he/she will have exactly ZERO experience of landing this type of aircraft in real life as it will be his/her first (no base training for S/O during type rating)

[Edited 2013-05-22 09:36:22]

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: GLAGAZ
Posted 2013-05-22 10:06:04 and read 5838 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 130):
It is extremely easy. I only fly on certain carriers. Having been
in the industry over 30 years I know which carriers I have confidence in.

Interesting statement. Can you share your wisdom with us? Out of curiosity i've just done a quick google search and found the following:

Quote:
We are proudly recruiting pilots for first officer positions. As a new Delta first officer, you have an opportunity to initially be assigned to a MD88/90, a 737NG, or even a 757/767 aircraft type among our fleet of more than 700 aircraft. To qualify for employment as a pilot with Delta you must meet all of the following requirements.

GENERAL REQUIREMENTS
At least 21 years of age.........

So Delta are happy with 21 year olds - I presume they are on your no-fly list?

Lastly, (apologies if you've already stated this) what experience do you feel is required to pilot a modern jet aircraft?

I.e. 3000 hours in a cessna 152, 1000 hours IFR, 500 in a twin (i.e. seneca)...etc etc

Do not take this post in the wrong way at all, i'm genuinely interested in how you come to have the opinion that you do.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-22 11:06:56 and read 5728 times.

Quoting GLAGAZ (Reply 132):
Quote:We are proudly recruiting pilots for first officer positions. As a new Delta first officer, you have an opportunity to initially be assigned to a MD88/90, a 737NG, or even a 757/767 aircraft type among our fleet of more than 700 aircraft. To qualify for employment as a pilot with Delta you must meet all of the following requirements.

GENERAL REQUIREMENTS
At least 21 years of age.........

So Delta are happy with 21 year olds - I presume they are on your no-fly list?

So, there is also a requirement for a college degree in the mix......I'm guessing they think that age 21 is the minimum age for that.

I'm thinking age 21 is in there so they can buy booze on layovers.  

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: m11stephen
Posted 2013-05-22 12:20:19 and read 5659 times.

That's quite a contrast to the United States. In the United States a new-hire regional first officer is on average probably 25 years old. The youngest I've ever heard of a regional FO being is 20 years old. With the new ATP requirements going into place the minimum age to serve as a first officer for a part 121 carrier is 23 years old.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: CARST
Posted 2013-05-22 13:41:51 and read 5591 times.

Age is only a concern for old people. They can't remember the time when they were at these young ages and now fear being replaced by someone much younger, giving up control. If the 19 year old had all the necessary training and is flying with an experienced captain there is no reason to stop an airline from employing such young F/Os.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: longhauler
Posted 2013-05-22 14:38:17 and read 5544 times.

Quoting CARST (Reply 135):
Age is only a concern for old people.

That just about says it all.

Quoting CARST (Reply 135):
If the 19 year old had all the necessary training and is flying with an experienced captain there is no reason to stop an airline from employing such young F/Os.

I am amazed that this young man was able to meet such high standards at such a low age. It shows a level of dedication that is sadly rather rare these days. He has a tremendous career ahead of him.

There are Cadet programs at airlines like All Nippon, Cathay, British Airways, Lufthansa and starting shortly at Air Canada. These airlines are among the safest on the earth. Clearly the Cadet program is safe, and fears of age are unfounded.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: aluminumtubing
Posted 2013-05-22 15:05:31 and read 5501 times.

Quoting GLAGAZ (Reply 132):
So Delta are happy with 21 year olds - I presume they are on your no-fly list?

Lastly, (apologies if you've already stated this) what experience do you feel is required to pilot a modern jet aircraft?

I.e. 3000 hours in a cessna 152, 1000 hours IFR, 500 in a twin (i.e. seneca)...etc etc

Do not take this post in the wrong way at all, i'm genuinely interested in how you come to have the opinion that you do.

My company has also had a minimum hiring age of 21 as well. At least when I applied. I can tell you that the minimum to apply is not the minimum to get hired.

Just because someone has the license and ratings does not mean much initially. It is a license to learn. For example, when my kids obtained their drivers license, they met the minimum requirements to operate the vehicle. They did not have the experience that comes with time. They were only allowed to drive in town to gain experience before we let them drive at high speeds on the freeway.

It is hard to draw up specific requirements for a number of reasons. It all depends on the type of flying experience the individual has. Many airlines have very experienced Captains who can train these individuals. Many do not. I am not against ab initio training either. With the forecast pilot shortage coming, ab initio will probably become more and more common. I am concerned however, that money talks and that many airlines will not provide enough adequate training. And I don't mean the likes of Lufthansa, British Airways, etc. They are superb. I am not being paranoid, I have seen a lot of cost cutting and the meeting of minimums in my career. Fortunately, not at my airline. My airline has hired many pilots who have been 24-25, have college degrees, with military training, corporate and or turbine regional experience. Myself included. I was hired at 25, and I still had a lot to learn. At 20, I had 1000 hours and was in no way qualified to enter the cockpit of a 737/A320. It was primarily single engine and light twin. Admittedly, I may have just been slower that the average guy.  

It appears that this thread seems to imply that because a non college educated 19 year old is considered by many in the profession to be too young, that we / I believe that young people do not belong in the industry. That would obviously be ridiculous. We absolutely need young people entering and I encourage any kid coming up to the cockpit. Is 19 too young? In my humble OPINION, I think it is. Is 23-24 too young. Absolutely not.

Bottom line, I have been flying airplanes for 37 years with about 10 to go. While I still have a lot to learn, I at least have an educated opinion whether anyone agrees with me or not. I am not trying to justify my way of thinking, just providing a point of view / opinion. I am rarely right at home, so it wouldn't surprise me if I was wrong here too...

Quoting CARST (Reply 135):
Age is only a concern for old people. They can't remember the time when they were at these young ages and now fear being replaced by someone much younger, giving up control. If the 19 year old had all the necessary training and is flying with an experienced captain there is no reason to stop an airline from employing such young F/Os.

While I can obviously only speak for myself, I am not the least bit afraid to have young people enter the profession. I encourage it and truly hope many, many more pilots are lucky enough to have the career I have had. And by the way, I am not that old!

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-05-22 15:32:26 and read 5449 times.

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 123):
That strikes me as being odd...how would a 19 year old be in the right seat on a 777....did he start his flight training while he was still in diapers?
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 130):

It is extremely easy. I only fly on certain carriers. Having been
in the industry over 30 years I know which carriers I have confidence in.

I don't get how age is a factor if they are able to do the job. I don't even know the pilots ages when I travel and rarely see them or pay much attention to who is flying the aircraft. What is it matter how old the pilot is?

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: GLAGAZ
Posted 2013-05-23 03:49:05 and read 5198 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 137):
At 20, I had 1000 hours and was in no way qualified to enter the cockpit of a 737/A320. It was primarily single engine and light twin.

Indeed. However there is a hell of a difference between operating a light aircraft and a multi-engine jet as i'm sure you're aware. There is no 'left rudder on level off' or 'right rudder when you apply power' unless of course you've got a failure but given that your experience is vastly greater than mine i'm sure you're well aware of that.

Most modern flight schools in Europe certainly train their students to be captains of aircraft such as the 737 from day 1. Its a far cry from learning how to go for a jolly with your friends and family in a 152 for the day for example. Everything is structured towards airline flying, usually culminating in the MCC.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 137):
We absolutely need young people entering and I encourage any kid coming up to the cockpit. Is 19 too young? In my humble OPINION, I think it is. Is 23-24 too young. Absolutely not.

I fully respect your opinon. Personally, I gained my first (airline) job at 23 but I know numerous people who are younger and are more than mature enough and intelligent enough to be in the positions that they now find themselves. If you're good enough - you're old enough  
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 137):
Bottom line, I have been flying airplanes for 37 years with about 10 to go. While I still have a lot to learn, I at least have an educated opinion whether anyone agrees with me or not. I am not trying to justify my way of thinking, just providing a point of view / opinion. I am rarely right at home, so it wouldn't surprise me if I was wrong here too...

The day we stop learning is the day we should stop flying I guess!   Happy flying!

[Edited 2013-05-23 03:50:35]

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mandala499
Posted 2013-05-23 13:14:52 and read 4875 times.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 116):
May I humbly inquire as to how much experience you have in large transport aircraft for which you base your opinion?

Does it matter since we are just talking opinons?

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 121):
If I owned a 737, I would take a 2,000 hour freight hauler any day of the week over somebody with 5,000 hours in the right seat of a 737 and essentially zero other flying exposure.

Cool... last time we hired the 2000hrs freight hauler type, they ended up flying using SPD/VS instead of the VNAV/Managed. So much for fuel efficiency.... when asked to use the VNAV/Managed, they simply refused, so the company simply refused to extend their contracts.   

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 124):
If you have someone who is 19, there is no way he has accumulated enough experience that he should be flying an airliner.

One airline here has a statistics on how many mishaps they've had related to the pilot's age... guess what, ironically for right seaters the older you are when you start the more likely you are to fly and get involved in a mishap on a given calendar year.

On the other hand, the younger you are on the right hand seat, the bigger the authority curve problem is, but the trend is consistent with CRM deficiencies vs crew age differences... Too much of a difference or a negative difference between the Captain and the FO, ain't good according to the statistics.

But then this is statistics from an airline hiring 19 yr olds...   

Quoting CARST (Reply 135):
Age is only a concern for old people.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 136):
That just about says it all.

I wish I could have put it as bluntly!   

Perhaps if the US allows foreigners to work and fly banner towing, prop freight hauling, regionals, and whatever else except airliners, then perhaps countries with a lack of general aviation and any air operations outside mainline carriers, can follow the US method of having a few thousand hours in anything smaller than a 737/320...   

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-23 14:07:05 and read 4802 times.

Just to mention this because it got lost in the mix, but this particular 19 year old, probably would NOT be hired by DL, for sure, because of the lack of a college degree. Not sure about the other legacies.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-23 15:04:25 and read 4741 times.

I expect there are still many BA pilots who went through their 21 month "ab initio" training scheme that lasted until sometime in the 1980s if not mistaken. Minimum age 18, maximum 24. Considering the safety record of major British carriers, it seemed to work fairly well.

1966 ad describing the program. The £1,300 annual starting salary in 1966 is equivalent to roughly £20,000 ($30,000) today with inflation.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...arch=College%20of%20Air%20Training

If it still existed today it wouldn't refer to "men".

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: PassedV1
Posted 2013-05-24 05:21:13 and read 4444 times.

The minimum requirements are for very special groups that don't help most pilots. Low age and total time for kids of management types. Low total time so as not to exclude fighter pilots. No PIC requirements to be able to hire the 10,000 hour regional FO that didn't have an opportunity to upgrade.

But NOBODY gets hired with ONLY the minimums...I guarantee you that Delta/AA/US/HA have no 1,500tt 21 year olds running around. In fact...at a US major, if you are under 30 years old you are very likely to be the youngest in your class.

The US aviation industry is about 1/2 the global aviation industry. For a number of years now, the fatal accident rate in the US has been zero. The other half of the airline industry kills about 700-800people a year.

Experience does matter. If the US carriers killed people at the rate the rest of the world does, we'd be losing a wide body every 4-6 months. Just because the rest of the world does it, in aviation, it doesn't mean it's a wise thing to do.

Topic: RE: 19-year-old Ryanair Pilot
Username: GLAGAZ
Posted 2013-05-24 05:48:10 and read 4400 times.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 143):
The US aviation industry is about 1/2 the global aviation industry. For a number of years now, the fatal accident rate in the US has been zero. The other half of the airline industry kills about 700-800people a year.

Experience does matter. If the US carriers killed people at the rate the rest of the world does, we'd be losing a wide body every 4-6 months. Just because the rest of the world does it, in aviation, it doesn't mean it's a wise thing to do.

Wow! I'm not even sure where to start with that.

So you're comparing recent American aviation related fatalities to the rest of the world?

America: A modern, developed nation with years of experience with all matters aviation related, from construction, to operating. This experience coming (in part) from numerous disasters over the years.

Rest of the world: Includes very poor nations, struggling to develop and become a part of the modern world. Companies operating very old aircraft with little maintenance or training.

A fair comparison?


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