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Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-05-27 07:52:13 and read 17506 times.

From Aspire Aviation:

Quote:
Therefore the top priority for Boeing is to halt the rise of the 350-seat A350-1000 by all means and prevent the aircraft from gaining any further traction from now on.

And Boeing seems to be doing just that. In order to placate Japanese carriers JAL and ANA over their perceived over-reliance on a single supplier, Aspire Aviation‘s sources at the Chicago-based plane-maker say the 777X’s 4th-generation carbon fibre reinforced polymer (CFRP) wing is likely to be made in Japan, before being transported by ship to Everett for final assembly.

Winning the prize of the 777X’s CFRP wings would be precious for Japan, not only because it is the centrepiece of the major revamp, but also of the fact that it is the largest wing ever built for a Boeing aircraft. The 71.1m (233.4ft) CFRP wings will also feature a folding wingtip on its outermost 11ft (3.35m) with a hydraulics actuator and a piano-type topside hinge – a novelty feature designed to make the 777-9X an International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) Code E aircraft at the gate and Code F aircraft while on the runway

Not sure If this will stop NH and JL from Ordering the A350XWB, But I guess you really never know. Not sure about the idea of having the wings shipped by sea though.

Some other interesting 777X related notes from the article:

Quote:
While this gives a thrust-to-MTOW (maximum take-off weight) ratio of 0.6 for the 777-9X, lower than the 0.627 ratio for the A350-900 and 0.63 for the A350-1000, as well as the 777-300ER’s 0.656, this does not mean that the 777-9X is underpowered. On the contrary, it is a testament to how optimised the 777-9X will be when it comes to the combination of its CFRP wings, engines and airframe.

Firstly, the 407-seat 777-9X is 4% more weight efficient than the 350-seat A350-1000 in terms of the MTOW per seat metric with the -9X’s MTOW at 344 tonnes and the A350-1000′s at 308 tonnes. Coupled with the more aerodynamically efficient wing on the 777X, it is apparent on the reason why the 777X has a 4.76% less thrust-to-MTOW ratio than the A350-1000: less weight efficient means the A350-1000 needs more power.

Secondly, the 0.76% discrepancy between the weight efficiency advantage and the thrust-to-MTOW difference is explained by the non-linear relationship between thrust, weight and engine fan size. The more weight efficient 777-9X has a relatively less demanding thrust requirement, leading to a smaller engine fan size that creates less drag and weighs less, which in turn reduces the thrust requirement further.

This speaks volume to the superior economic performance that the 407-seat 777-9X will have over the 350-seat A350-1000, which Boeing Commercial Airplanes (BCA) vice president (VP) of marketing and business development Mike Bair said in a May 7 investor and analyst conference in New York as having the lowest fuel burn per seat of any airplane.

Ranges remain the same from the previous article:

A350-1000- 8400nm

777-9X- 8100nm

777-8X- 8100nm/9480nm

Source: http://www.aspireaviation.com/2013/0...s-all-fronts/#.UaNg7TUFb6U.twitter

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: Aither
Posted 2013-05-27 08:02:45 and read 17479 times.

So the entry into service could be 2020+???

[Edited 2013-05-27 08:04:34]

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-05-27 08:06:06 and read 17432 times.

I am of the opinion that neither NH nor JL need the size of the 777-9X and they do not need the range of the 777-8XL, so if they do order the 777X, I believe it will be the 777-8X model.

Both operators could possibly consolidate their long-haul 777-200ER and 777-300ER fleets into the 777-8X (since it slots in between both), but I could also see them ordering the 787-10 as a 777-200ER replacement and the A350-1000 as a 777-300ER replacement.

Then again, considering the low-density configurations on their 777-300ERs, they might just be able to make the 787-10 work for that (as the lower DOW would help extend the operating range).

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-05-27 09:06:23 and read 17172 times.

Quoting Aither (Reply 1):
So the entry into service could be 2020+???

From the article, its suggests a mid 2019 EIS, after a 9 month flight test program. It also suggests a roll out in the fourth quarter in 2017 for the -9X. Also noted was that the Freighter version, which would use the -8LX as a platform, would be available from 2025. This was from a presentation made to LH.

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: Spacepope
Posted 2013-05-27 09:11:05 and read 17144 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Thread starter):
Not sure about the idea of having the wings shipped by sea though.

Why not? Transit time should be in the neighborhood of 12 days or so, costs are way less, and with proper scheduling,t he wings should arrive on the other side of the Pacific right when they're needed.

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-05-27 09:17:05 and read 17096 times.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 4):
Why not? Transit time should be in the neighborhood of 12 days or so, costs are way less, and with proper scheduling,t he wings should arrive on the other side of the Pacific right when they're needed.

Well, I wasn't sure about the time it would take to ship from Japan. This would have an effect on the production rate, though im not sure what production rate per month will be used for the 777X.

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-05-27 09:30:58 and read 17029 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Thread starter):
Not sure about the idea of having the wings shipped by sea though.
Boeing added a new dock at the Port of Mukilteo and there is a rail link from there to the Everett plant, so there would be direct port access to the plant for wing shipsets delivered by sea.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 5):
Well, I wasn't sure about the time it would take to ship from Japan. This would have an effect on the production rate, though im not sure what production rate per month will be used for the 777X.

With sufficient lead time at the start of the production cycle, you could ensure sufficient sets are shipped per trip to meet the FAL's demand.

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: kanban
Posted 2013-05-27 09:38:30 and read 16977 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Thread starter):
Not sure about the idea of having the wings shipped by sea though.

why not, the 777 body panels arrive that way already. Plus I don't believe there has been any lost, damaged or delayed.

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: 817Dreamliiner
Posted 2013-05-27 09:45:10 and read 16941 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Boeing added a new dock at the Port of Mukilteo and there is a rail link from there to the Everett plant, so there would be direct port access to the plant for wing shipsets delivered by sea.

Hmmm, didnt know this... Well now that I do know, it makes alot more sense. Thanks Stitch.

Quoting kanban (Reply 7):

I was concerned about how long it would take mostly...

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: kanban
Posted 2013-05-27 09:48:23 and read 16928 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 8):
I was concerned about how long it would take mostly...

If you schedule completion 20 days ahead of installation there is no problem once the pipeline is loaded. The only concern I would have during the first 50 shipsets was configuration control and change incorporation on receipt

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2013-05-27 10:07:22 and read 16840 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Boeing added a new dock at the Port of Mukilteo and there is a rail link from there to the Everett plant, so there would be direct port access to the plant for wing shipsets delivered by sea.

The new dock was initially planned for the 787 until the LCF came along. Now it's just used for 767 parts. Parts for the 767 were initially put on a train in Everett (about 3 miles form the factory) but due to rail schedules and other things Boeing wanted easier access for 787 parts as the new dock is right down the hill from the factory.

Are the wings to big for the LCF?

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-27 11:58:20 and read 16224 times.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 4):

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Thread starter):
Not sure about the idea of having the wings shipped by sea though.

Why not? Transit time should be in the neighborhood of 12 days or so, costs are way less, and with proper scheduling,t he wings should arrive on the other side of the Pacific right when they're needed.


  

On one side is air travel and its high costs for transporting a shipset of wings.

On the other side is the lower cost of shipping, capitol costs of the wings in transit, and higher insurance costs of sea transit (basically, a per day fee).

When weighed out, Japan to Seattle should be cheaper by sea by a few hundred thousand dollars per set of wings.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 5):
This would have an effect on the production rate,

No impact on production rate, just the production lead time. That should be a non-issue as we're talking adding two weeks to a year (to 18 month) lead time item. Or put into weeks, we're extending the wing lead time from 52 to 78 weeks to 54 to 80 weeks.   


Lightsaber

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2013-05-27 12:12:52 and read 16019 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11):
On one side is air travel and its high costs for transporting a shipset of wings.

On the other side is the lower cost of shipping, capitol costs of the wings in transit, and higher insurance costs of sea transit (basically, a per day fee).

When weighed out, Japan to Seattle should be cheaper by sea by a few hundred thousand dollars per set of wings.


I guess Boeing wasted a lotta $$$ on the LCF's then. Cheaper to ship a lot of the 787 parts by sea but they don't. I guess you should let them know.

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-05-27 12:12:58 and read 16016 times.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 4):
Why not? Transit time should be in the neighborhood of 12 days or so, costs are way less, and with proper scheduling,t he wings should arrive on the other side of the Pacific right when they're needed.

In the book "The Birth of the 787 Dreamliner" Boeing explained that they looked at shipping large 787 parts over sea but they did not continue with it because - and I quote - "you don't want to have stock floating around for so long".

Now both Airbus (A320s in Mobile) and Boeing (777X) are going to ship parts over sea, things must have been changed since 2000 I guess.

[Edited 2013-05-27 12:41:03]

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: queb
Posted 2013-05-27 12:25:29 and read 15869 times.

BBD ship parts (CRJ fuselage and soon cseries wings) over sea since 20 years from Belfast to Mtl

Topic: Boeing Planning To Make 777X CFRP Wings In Japan
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-05-27 12:30:39 and read 15783 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 12):
I guess Boeing wasted a lotta $$$ on the LCF's then. Cheaper to ship a lot of the 787 parts by sea but they don't. I guess you should let them know.

It stands to reason Boeing did a cost-benefit analysis and decided the added expense ("waste") of shipping by air was worth it in terms of lowering delivery times and reducing inventory in transit.

Of course, this was before Boeing so thoroughly cocked-up the production ramp that they could have shipped parts by burro and still had them arrive in plenty of time for final assembly.   

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: spink
Posted 2013-05-27 14:32:41 and read 14637 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 13):
In the book "The Birth of the 787 Dreamliner" Boeing explained that they looked at shipping large 787 parts over sea but they did not continue with it because - and I quote - "you don't want to have stock floating around for so long".

Some of this has to do with rates/volume as well. Given the initial expectations and current plans of the 787 program, shipping by sea would require up to 7 sets of wings to be on ship at any given time. For the 777, it would require 3-4 sets of wings to be one ship at any given time.

In addition, there is the issue of wing size with the 777x wings being significantly bigger than the 787 wings.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: DocLightning
Posted 2013-05-27 15:04:12 and read 14392 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 12):
I guess Boeing wasted a lotta $$$ on the LCF's then. Cheaper to ship a lot of the 787 parts by sea but they don't. I guess you should let them know.

You bring up a major issue. The LCF. The 787 has a big wing that required the LCF. But the 777X is going to have an even bigger wing. Is there an aircraft in existence that can take it? How much bigger would the LCF have to be to accept it? That would involve making an entire new aircraft type and certifying it for a program that doesn't have nearly the sales potential of the entire 787 program (remember, the 777X will be a type on its second iteration, not its first). Can a 747 (or 77W?) be modified to fit the entire 777X wing?

If not, then there is only the AN225 or Boeing has to build an entirely new LCF that isn't based on any existing airframe. And neither of those options seems very practical.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-27 16:44:19 and read 13703 times.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 12):
I guess Boeing wasted a lotta $$$ on the LCF's then. Cheaper to ship a lot of the 787 parts by sea but they don't. I guess you should let them know.

Let's make another comparison. Once upon a time, iPhones were air freighted. Now they are shipped. The price of ship borne freight has dropped over 50% since the 787 plan fell into place. The cost of air freight has risen. Ships are slightly faster, saving a few days off the voyage. Considering Boeing has built a dock, I'm betting they'll looking into sea transit of the 787 wings. So no need for me to tell them a thing. They've already done the math.

Are rail lines and a dock being built in Japan at the Oye plant? I cannot help but notice its on the water:
http://www.mhi.co.jp/en/company/location/contents/map/oye_cyo.html

Its on the Oye river... (zoom of above)
http://www.mhi.co.jp/en/company/location/contents/map/oye_cyo.html

All production processes seek to cut costs with time. With the sharp drop in water borne transit costs, why wouldn't Boeing consider switching transport modes to Seattle when they ramp up production (reserving the LCFs for Charleston).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
The 787 has a big wing that required the LCF. But the 777X is going to have an even bigger wing. Is there an aircraft in existence that can take it?

With the folding wingtips, I would expect LCF will be able to carry the wings in a pinch. But that is a 'gut feel.' I'd like to know the actual dimensions.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: AA7295
Posted 2013-05-27 17:07:39 and read 13547 times.

And if ANA/JAL don't order the 777X.... I hope they will manufacture these wings stateside!

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: nomadd22
Posted 2013-05-27 17:43:08 and read 13271 times.

No reason they can't make a 748 LCF.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: queb
Posted 2013-05-27 18:18:55 and read 13043 times.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 20):

No reason they can't make a 748 LCF.

I don't think the problem is the fuselage lenght, diameter is more problematic. Even A350 wing can't make it in 747LCF. The solution could be the future A330-200BXL  http://i13.servimg.com/u/f13/17/03/84/59/size10.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img42/1089/beluga.png

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-05-27 18:32:48 and read 12915 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
All production processes seek to cut costs with time. With the sharp drop in water borne transit costs, why wouldn't Boeing consider switching transport modes to Seattle when they ramp up production (reserving the LCFs for Charleston).

I suspect that they will eventually go to shipping all wings to Seattle, (except a few perhaps under extraordinary circumstances), then flying the ones needed to Charleston. That would amount to significant long term savings.

Shipping may end up being an option for other far flung parts as well.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-05-27 18:34:30 and read 12901 times.

I will only speculate on the purchase side of things, the Japanese carriers are all private, so how exactly does Japan private industry building the wings for the 777X assist or change their reliance on one a/c supplier?
Is the article stating that nationalism is involved in Japan making a/c purchases, the professionals who run these carriers are going to purchase the 777X based on nothing to do with price and performance.
We had speculation in another thread that they are already considering Airbus a/c because of the delay problems with the 787, so If we accept that they are serious why exactly would Boeing out-source a major component for a new frame when Airbus is getting purchases without doing the same????

I think I'm missing something.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-27 20:13:35 and read 12345 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
I suspect that they will eventually go to shipping all wings to Seattle

We are in agreement.   

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Shipping may end up being an option for other far flung parts as well.

For parts *not* going through the Panama Canal, I agree. However, the current Canal's small ships raise trans ocean rates too high; 2500 TEU ships are just too small for economical TPAC travel vs. the 13,500 Emma Maersk or the more common 6,500+ TEU TPAC ships. (Yes, I'm aware the EM record is 15,011 TEUs, but that won't be typical of TPAC nor will these wings likely go on that size of vessel due to the frequency of shipments.)

So for example, I would expect Charleston to Seattle barrels would still go by air. Unless the canal becomes that much more efficient...

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: rotating14
Posted 2013-05-27 20:22:33 and read 12603 times.

Hhhmmmm. So I'm thinking about this whole transit from Japan to Seattle and I'm thinking 1) What is and or would be the complete transit time from Japan to Seattle and 2) If Boeing is going to dedicate the wings being made in Japan, how many freighters would they need to have in transit in order to not hold up the FAL?


Perhaps having 2 sea-liners doing the round trips so when a freighter with say 7 sets of wings arrives at Seattle, the other would have left say ..... 1 day prior en route to Japan to pick up the next set. Maybe I'm thinking way ahead in thinking the wings can be made that fast but this is why I'm asking. Anyone??

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: rotating14
Posted 2013-05-27 20:27:13 and read 12583 times.

Quoting queb (Reply 21):
I don't think the problem is the fuselage lenght, diameter is more problematic. Even A350 wing can't make it in 747LCF. The solution could be the future A330-200BXL  


Also, would Airbus sell Boeing a new Beluga if it needed bad enough?? Has any other OEM ever bought equipment from its competition??

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-27 20:45:52 and read 12676 times.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 25):
Perhaps having 2 sea-liners doing the round trips so when a freighter with say 7 sets of wings arrives at Seattle, the other would have left say .....

I doubt they will be dedicated freighters. The wings would travel in custom 'pods' protecting them that would be stacked with the other containers. Much the same way that small yachts are shipped TPAC.

http://www.google.com/imgres?start=1...=184&tbnw=212&ndsp=15&tx=129&ty=54

Or perhaps as they ship automobilies US west coast to Hawaii. I couldn't find an image online, but there are containers that replace I estimate 16 containers that are loaded up with automobiles and loaded onto a ship as one unit. (It amazed me to see one once being lifted onto a ship in the Long Beach harbor.)

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: md80fanatic
Posted 2013-05-27 21:13:06 and read 12492 times.

Why isn't it cheaper to manufacture them in Seattle?    Toting the finished wings across an airport tarmac -surely- has to be cheaper than carrying them across the Pacific Ocean ... by any means.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-05-27 21:29:06 and read 12368 times.

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 28):
Why isn't it cheaper to manufacture them in Seattle?

It may be more a case of knowledge. Japan builds the wings for the 787, so they have the industrial know-how to do so for the 777X.

That being said, Everett and Snohomish County are working hard to secure 777X assembly and component production and Boeing does fabricate the 787-9 horizontal stabilizer in Seattle and Salt Lake City and the 787 family vertical stabilizer in Fredrickson (outside Seattle).

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-05-27 21:30:21 and read 12332 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
The wings would travel in custom 'pods' protecting them that would be stacked with the other containers. Much the same way that small yachts are shipped TPAC.

BBD uses custom containers to ship it's wings from Belfast.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: AA7295
Posted 2013-05-27 21:31:50 and read 12346 times.

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 28):
Why isn't it cheaper to manufacture them in Seattle? Toting the finished wings across an airport tarmac -surely- has to be cheaper than carrying them across the Pacific Ocean ... by any means.

My thoughts exactly!!

Is it purely to support jobs in Japan to rally them up to buy the 777X? Who knows... but if ANA/JAL got for the A35J, then the wings should be made in America.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: 7BOEING7
Posted 2013-05-27 21:47:55 and read 12257 times.

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 31):
Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 28):Why isn't it cheaper to manufacture them in Seattle? Toting the finished wings across an airport tarmac -surely- has to be cheaper than carrying them across the Pacific Ocean ... by any means.

My thoughts exactly!!

Is it purely to support jobs in Japan to rally them up to buy the 777X? Who knows... but if ANA/JAL got for the A35J, then the wings should be made in America.

Boeing now owns a nice building that will eventually have no use (787 mods complete) at the south end of the field.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: spink
Posted 2013-05-27 22:14:46 and read 12044 times.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 25):
Hhhmmmm. So I'm thinking about this whole transit from Japan to Seattle and I'm thinking 1) What is and or would be the complete transit time from Japan to Seattle and 2) If Boeing is going to dedicate the wings being made in Japan, how many freighters would they need to have in transit in order to not hold up the FAL?

Transit time is ~14 days. For transport, they will likely contract onto regularly scheduled commercial service. It simply isn't cost effective for them to reserve an entire freighter for the transit while it is perfectly normal for regularly scheduled service to make several west coast stops.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: spink
Posted 2013-05-27 22:25:25 and read 11970 times.

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 28):
Why isn't it cheaper to manufacture them in Seattle? Toting the finished wings across an airport tarmac -surely- has to be cheaper than carrying them across the Pacific Ocean ... by any means.

Likely because any wing manufacture in Japan will be done via a risk-sharing partnership which will shift significant costs to the supplier in Japan. Building up the infrastructure and esp the ovens aren't cheap. Also by shifting to Japan they open up more options for NRE/infrastructure funding via the Japanese government. Plus they already have a working relationship and partnership with several Japanese companies.

AKA, it is likely even with transport costs that it will be cheaper to Boeing to manufacture the wings in Japan.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: flyingclrs727
Posted 2013-05-27 22:31:00 and read 11953 times.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
I suspect that they will eventually go to shipping all wings to Seattle, (except a few perhaps under extraordinary circumstances), then flying the ones needed to Charleston. That would amount to significant long term savings.

Why not just ship the 787-9 wings to Charleston via the Panama Canal? That wouldn't incur the cost of unloading the wings in WA and transferring them to an LCF.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: spink
Posted 2013-05-27 22:37:24 and read 11910 times.

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 35):
Why not just ship the 787-9 wings to Charleston via the Panama Canal? That wouldn't incur the cost of unloading the wings in WA and transferring them to an LCF.

rates through panama are higher than tranpac due to the size restrictions of the canal. AKA bigger ships are cheaper ships.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-27 22:42:28 and read 11885 times.

Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 35):
Why not just ship the 787-9 wings to Charleston via the Panama Canal? That wouldn't incur the cost of unloading the wings in WA and transferring them to an LCF.

I would expect Charleston wings to make the whole trip by LCF.

As I and spink already noted, smaller ships cost quite a bit more and currently the panama canal has tiny locks. When larger locks are available, I doubt service from Japan to Charleston will be frequent enough (while Seattle is just another pacific port for the US).

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: RIXrat
Posted 2013-05-27 23:19:15 and read 11678 times.

Boeing most probably could contract out to K-Line and/or Wallenius-Wilhelmson Line. Both have specialized Ro-Ro car carriers that can take oversized cargo of almost any type. These ugly vessels don't even look like ships. Both have scheduled service to Tacoma-Seattle.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: mham001
Posted 2013-05-27 23:55:03 and read 11486 times.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 13):
In the book "The Birth of the 787 Dreamliner" Boeing explained that they looked at shipping large 787 parts over sea but they did not continue with it because - and I quote - "you don't want to have stock floating around for so long".

Those planes were also meant for much more than just wings from Japan.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-05-28 01:10:14 and read 11131 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Thread starter):
From Aspire Aviation:

That is a pretty rubbish source, they have been wrong on so many occasions in the past esp when it come down to predicting aircraft performance.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Thread starter):
Firstly, the 407-seat 777-9X is 4% more weight efficient than the 350-seat A350-1000 in terms of the MTOW per seat metric with the -9X’s MTOW at 344 tonnes and the A350-1000′s at 308 tonnes. Coupled with the more aerodynamically efficient wing on the 777X, it is apparent on the reason why the 777X has a 4.76% less thrust-to-MTOW ratio than the A350-1000: less weight efficient means the A350-1000 needs more power.

We have seen these sort of comparisons made in the past, in reality they do not reflect what happens in the real world. Airlines will sort out how many seats they want to install, not some Boeing marketing configuration.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: tortugamon
Posted 2013-05-28 03:18:36 and read 10544 times.

I would be surprised if Boeing did not run the calculations to see how beneficial Japanese wings would be to the program's cost. As has been mentioned, they have the facilities, the ovens, and the labor to make them and most likely they could be delivered at lower cost then wings made in Everett. After the 787 they may even have some design know-how. By going through the paces they will also have some very important Japanese industrialists lobbying JAL and ANA for 777X orders vs A351 but this is certainly a secondary motivation.

However, I think this would ultimately be a mistake. Alan Mulally had previously suggested that it would be a mistake for Boeing to outsource their core wing production/design technologies again. Boeing has the facility space at the EMC and why not invest in the the CFRP ovens? Do they think that this technology will change in the medium term that such an investment could not be used for the NSA and other aircraft programs as well?

I believe this to be good ole due diligence with the added benefit of motivating local politicians and industrialists to lobby/negotiate better deals for Boeing. Ultimately if BA foresee enough orders for the 77X then IMO, they will make the wings themselves. If they see only enough orders to launch the program but not enough to mostly offset the added facility upgrades then maybe they will have a difficult decision. In the mean time, it is wise to run all of the numbers ahead of time and let the orders/demand assist with the decision making.

tortugamon

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: spink
Posted 2013-05-28 03:47:11 and read 10350 times.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 41):
However, I think this would ultimately be a mistake. Alan Mulally had previously suggested that it would be a mistake for Boeing to outsource their core wing production/design technologies again. Boeing has the facility space at the EMC and why not invest in the the CFRP ovens? Do they think that this technology will change in the medium term that such an investment could not be used for the NSA and other aircraft programs as well?

Yes they likely do. out of autoclave curing while still in its infancy for composites in airframes is likely the future. That combined with the eventual switch to CNFP.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-05-28 04:32:51 and read 10110 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
I would expect Charleston wings to make the whole trip by LCF.

As I and spink already noted, smaller ships cost quite a bit more and currently the panama canal has tiny locks. When larger locks are available, I doubt service from Japan to Charleston will be frequent enough (while Seattle is just another pacific port for the US).

I would think that they could still have cost savings shipping ALL the 787 wings on the same freighter that carries the 777 wings, then fly some from Seattle to Charleston, a shorter distance and much less fuel burned. Based on the volume of a/c ordered and to be produced, you would expect the bulk of the Boeing load on the freighter to be 787 wing sets.
If as they are now claiming the supply / production line is stabilizing, having scheduled deliveries by ship even with a 14 day transit should be doable, one ship load of wings would equal to multiple LCF flights.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-05-28 05:45:05 and read 9729 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 43):
I would think that they could still have cost savings shipping ALL the 787 wings on the same freighter that carries the 777 wings, then fly some from Seattle to Charleston, a shorter distance and much less fuel burned.

That depends on how long the wings sit in transit. But what you propose is possible and you are correct it should save money.

IMHO, as 787 production increases, there will be resistance to making another LCF due to costs.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 41):
. Alan Mulally had previously suggested that it would be a mistake for Boeing to outsource their core wing production/design technologies again.

I was shocked when Boeing outsourced the 787 wing production. IMHO, it would be better for Boeing to keep the technology in house. In particular if they come up with any new innovations. However, Boeing is trying hard to improve their bond rating. IMHO, that will drive them to outsource the wings.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: neutrino
Posted 2013-05-28 08:17:22 and read 8902 times.

Quoting queb (Reply 21):
The solution could be the future A330-200BXL

If that do happen, and its a extremely huge IF, then the old adage will have to be rewritten thus: Every Boeing 777X is delivered on the wings of an Airbus.   

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: JoeCanuck
Posted 2013-05-28 08:18:18 and read 8912 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
I was shocked when Boeing outsourced the 787 wing production.

Now that Mitsu has the hang of the 787 wings, (and the 'exporting technology' fairy has left the building), it will probably save time and cash to have them do the 777x wings as well.

It would be a surprise to me if there wasn't a significant amount of overlap between the wings from the two programs.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: ADent
Posted 2013-05-28 11:21:13 and read 8577 times.

A lot of the work Japan does on the 787 is outsourced to Korea - I think they make composite beams, spars, stringers.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...g-towards-full-rate-output-348225/

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2013-05-28 12:08:41 and read 8485 times.

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 28):
Why isn't it cheaper to manufacture them in Seattle?
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 41):
Boeing has the facility space at the EMC and why not invest in the the CFRP ovens?
Quoting spink (Reply 34):
Likely because any wing manufacture in Japan will be done via a risk-sharing partnership which will shift significant costs to the supplier in Japan.

All three comments are related. With the 777X wing there are two major investments needed.

Autoclave and tape/fiber placement machines.

Autoclaves are the biggie as they need to be large to handle the large co-cure components. As MHI etc already have the autoclaves for the 787, there would be only new autoclaves needed for rate.

Problems with autoclaves are that they spew out toxic gasses during the curing process. So, unless you already have permit to do it, it would be difficult to get new one's for the "environmentally sensitive" Puget Sound area.

Tape/fiber placement machines are easier to place, but cost wise ????

The natural place (near Seattle) for a new 777 wing is the composite shop at the Fredricson site. Don't know what the capability would be. My guess is they will be busy with the 777x work as well.

The other thing to consider is the type of composite material used. If the raw material (pre-preg/tape) is already being fabricated in Japan, might as well have your lay up facility near by. (These raw material do have a shelf life. Don't know if the one being use are more sensitive than typical material used elsewhere).

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
it would be better for Boeing to keep the technology in house.

Boeing do have a composite facility in Seattle to do composite development work (used to build parts for the B2, and F-22 and 787 test parts) and initial production run if needed. However, the facility is too small to do rate production.

bt

[Edited 2013-05-28 12:10:31]

[Edited 2013-05-28 12:11:19]

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: dynamicsguy
Posted 2013-05-28 23:50:57 and read 7921 times.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 48):
As MHI etc already have the autoclaves for the 787, there would be only new autoclaves needed for rate.

You're making the assumption that a 777X wing skin will fit in autoclaves which almost certainly were sized to only just hold 787 skins.

Quoting spink (Reply 42):
Yes they likely do. out of autoclave curing while still in its infancy for composites in airframes is likely the future.

Definitely a possibility, either with out of autoclave pre-pregs, or resin infusion. We've industrialised the controlled atmospheric pressure resin infusion process here for making the 787 moveable trailing edge, so there's one out of autoclave technology which is mature enough to be used on primary structure of a significant size and which is owned by Boeing.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: EPA001
Posted 2013-05-29 00:37:32 and read 7845 times.

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 28):
Why isn't it cheaper to manufacture them in Seattle?  

Most likely not, for a number of reasons.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
It may be more a case of knowledge. Japan builds the wings for the 787, so they have the industrial know-how to do so for the 777X.

It might. But let us not forget that Japan (or Japanese companies) contributed quite heavily financially to the B787 program with subsidies. These subsidies have bought the involved companies a lot of knowledge about the wing design and production. These advantages might apply again for the B777-X program.  .

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 44):
I was shocked when Boeing outsourced the 787 wing production. IMHO, it would be better for Boeing to keep the technology in house. In particular if they come up with any new innovations. However, Boeing is trying hard to improve their bond rating. IMHO, that will drive them to outsource the wings.

Well, the financials predominantly lead them to make that decision. I guess it is not anything different this time, except for the fact that the Japanese companies have gathered (much) more knowledge about designing and building highly modern wings.

[Edited 2013-05-29 00:38:58]

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: rwessel
Posted 2013-05-29 03:00:10 and read 7691 times.

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Thread starter):
Some other interesting 777X related notes from the article:

Quote:
While this gives a thrust-to-MTOW (maximum take-off weight) ratio of 0.6 for the 777-9X, lower than the 0.627 ratio for the A350-900 and 0.63 for the A350-1000, as well as the 777-300ER’s 0.656, this does not mean that the 777-9X is underpowered.

Those numbers are simply wrong, unless they're measuring power loading in something bizarre like lb/kg.

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 26):
Also, would Airbus sell Boeing a new Beluga if it needed bad enough?? Has any other OEM ever bought equipment from its competition??

Before the Belugas, Airbus used four Super Guppies, which were modified Boeing Stratocruisers.

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2013-05-29 03:10:36 and read 7683 times.

How much of the 787 and future 777X wings are actually DESIGNED in Japan as opposed to being manufactured? Surely most of the design, especially of the latter, is still done by Boeing?

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2013-05-29 04:50:52 and read 7533 times.

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 49):
You're making the assumption that a 777X wing skin will fit in autoclaves which almost certainly were sized to only just hold 787 skins.

You are right. Which makes me think there's more than one reason why Boeing offered a folding wing for the 777X. Could there be a wing splice involved along with the need for the wing to fit in the gate? Pure speculation on my part.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 52):
How much of the 787 and future 777X wings are actually DESIGNED in Japan as opposed to being manufactured? Surely most of the design, especially of the latter, is still done by Boeing?

If past history is of use (777) . . . Boeing does the loft, placement of major components, joint design, major gauging etc . . . the Japanese partners does the final detail design and release work for components all the way up to the major assemblies. Usually they release through "Boeing drawing system". Thus Boeing still own most if not all parts of the wing design.

However, things could have changed since the 777.

bt

Topic: RE: Boeing Planning To Make 777X Cfrp Wings In Japan
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-05-29 07:20:01 and read 7353 times.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 52):
How much of the 787 and future 777X wings are actually DESIGNED in Japan as opposed to being manufactured? Surely most of the design, especially of the latter, is still done by Boeing?

The 787 wing was designed by the Japanese. I believe it is the first Boeing Commercial Airplane wing not designed by Boeing's engineers.

I would expect Boeing to design the 777X's wing since they designed the 777's wing and that would be the foundation for the new wing for the 777X.


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