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Topic: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Atlflyer
Posted 2013-05-25 07:50:43 and read 19204 times.

"We're going to keep investing in New York," says Anderson. "We're doing another $300 million in investment here and one day we want to build the third phase of this facility."

The third phase will allow Delta to consolidate all of its operations in terminal 4, says Gail Grimmett, senior vice-president for New York, on the sidelines of the event. The airline will still operate some select mainline flights from terminal 2 after phase two opens, she explains.

Delta is in discussions with the PANYNJ and JFK IAT regarding the third phase but has yet to determine a timeline the project, she says.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...sion-announces-third-phase-386342/

Also, from a 2010 document from the PA of NY/NJ, it looks like they are on schedule...Phase Iii will be a head house expansion and expansion of Concourse A.

http://www.panynj.gov/corporate-info...ion/pdf/aug_5_2010_ops_Minutes.pdf

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-05-25 08:07:48 and read 19198 times.

Phase III should look something like this minus the old Term2 (now C60-70) and the walkway

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: DL747400
Posted 2013-05-25 08:19:42 and read 19023 times.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 1):
Phase III should look something like this minus the old Term2 (now C60-70) and the walkway

Negative. The pic you show above reflects what a completion of Phase 2 will look like except there will be no T4-T2 connector. Phase 3 will include new elements not reflected in your pic.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-25 08:25:21 and read 18959 times.

Very cool indeed.

T2 can not be long for this world.

I am noticing on the AirTrain that they have all checkin for Delta at T4 now.

That means that a good chunk of people are taking a bus.

This is not good...and I am sure they will move to get those flights into T4 sooner rather than later

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: EricR
Posted 2013-05-25 08:25:32 and read 18967 times.

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 2):

I thought phase III is the extension of T4A, which is reflected in the above picture. What else is phase III supposed to include?

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-05-25 08:26:05 and read 18946 times.

This picture show the expanded Concourse A, and as I mentioned Minus the walkway and connector

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: DL747400
Posted 2013-05-25 08:34:11 and read 18875 times.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 5):
This picture show the expanded Concourse A, and as I mentioned Minus the walkway and connector

Yes, but you are calling this the completed Phase 3 when this is actually the completed Phase 2. There are new renderings coming soon from PANYNJ / JFK IAT which will reflect a completed Phase 3.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-05-25 08:40:58 and read 18838 times.

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 6):
Yes, but you are calling this the completed Phase 3

Actually I'm not.
What I wrote on the top of the picture is:
"Phase III should look something like this minus the old Term2 (now C60-70) and the walkway"

Again this picture is the only one for now that gives an IDEA what phase III should look like with
an EXPANDED Concourse A thats all.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Atlflyer
Posted 2013-05-25 09:06:06 and read 18720 times.

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 6):

How is this completed Phase II? Concourse A is not being touched during Phase II...

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Atlflyer
Posted 2013-05-25 09:14:03 and read 18675 times.

Here is what a completed Phase II will look like...

http://delta.thedigitalcenter.com/as.../29317-jfk-with-phase-ii-expansion

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-25 09:16:46 and read 18642 times.

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 8):
How is this completed Phase II? Concourse A is not being touched during Phase II...

So, which one is Concourse "B" and which is "A", again? Is JFK designating them backwards?

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Atlflyer
Posted 2013-05-25 09:26:02 and read 18576 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 10):

In the photo, Concourse A is on the right, B on the left.

They are not backwards. When you enter the Terminal, Concourse A starts on the left and B on the right.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: DL747400
Posted 2013-05-25 09:54:29 and read 18421 times.

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 8):
How is this completed Phase II? Concourse A is not being touched during Phase II...

Forget T4A. Focusing exclusively on T4B, the rendering above reflects a completed Phase 2, minus the connector to T2. More renderings coming soon to clarify all.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-05-25 09:55:12 and read 18420 times.

I think the most disputable comment in the article is:

Quote:

The opening today begins to level the playing field between Delta, American Airlines and United Airlines in terms of terminal facilities at New York's three airports. Terminal 3 at JFK has long been derided a decrepit and functionally obsolete, despite its historical importance as the Pan Am Worldport when it opened in 1960.

I'd say it's a tiny step, no where near large enough to say it's starting to level the playing field with AA and UA's facilities in NYC.

We're only now seeing the completion of Phase I, and Phase II is described as "The 6,968 square metre phase two includes the addition of an 11-gate regional aircraft facility on concourse B.", thusly:

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 9):
Here is what a completed Phase II will look like...

http://delta.thedigitalcenter.com/as.../29317-jfk-with-phase-ii-expansion

so another $175 mil and a few more years added just to put 11 RJ gates at the end of the horrendously long Concourse B, which already generates comments such as:

Quote:

"I did need a plane ride to get from the entrance to here today," says US congressman Joseph Crowley, joking about the walk to gate B41 - the last on the concourse - at the event.

And then the Phase III which is truly needed to get to approach that level playing field, which should take the same order of magnitude of spending as did Phase I, i.e. $1.2B, and result in a facility far better than today yet IMHO still inferior to what AA already has at JFK and UA already has at EWR, in terms of layout and efficiency.

In the mean time we read:

Quote:

United announced at least $150 million in investments to the check-in, gate and baggage systems in terminal C at Newark Liberty International airport on 21 May. The move was seen by many industry followers as an attempt to distract from Delta's terminal 4 opening.

This shows that the competition can chose to improve their already superior facilities with far less spending than DL is having to do just to appear to (but IMHO not quite reach) the level playing field.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: alitalia744
Posted 2013-05-25 10:46:15 and read 18231 times.

Thunderclouds are making the sound "tram.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: EricR
Posted 2013-05-25 13:44:47 and read 17752 times.

Quote:

"I did need a plane ride to get from the entrance to here today," says US congressman Joseph Crowley, joking about the walk to gate B41 - the last on the concourse - at the event.

I am amazed at how many people complain about walking. You'll be on a plane for the next several hours. A walk will do you and your waistline some good.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-25 14:31:13 and read 17570 times.




Sorry.. it's just a little difficult to get all excited about a 1960s design reintroduced in 2013.

The comment by the congressman of needing a plane to get from the entrance to the gate is already on everyone's mind and will become a slogan of sorts to be use against Delta by rivals in the future - count on it.

BN747

[Edited 2013-05-25 15:28:20]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Atlflyer
Posted 2013-05-25 14:52:08 and read 17346 times.

Quoting DL747400 (Reply 12):

This is not a completed phase II?

http://delta.thedigitalcenter.com/as.../29317-jfk-with-phase-ii-expansion

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: EricR
Posted 2013-05-25 14:55:26 and read 17323 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 16):

The comment by the congressman of needing a plane to get from the entrance to the gate is already on everyone's mind will become slogan of sorts to use against Delta by rivals - count on it.

Oh, do you mean the same way that competitors have created slogans about the long walk at ORD when someone has on UA has to go from C31 to gate B2 or someone on AA that has to go from gate G21 to L8.

No competitor is going to waste their time and dollars on something so trivial, especially when all large carriers face this issue at one or more of their hubs. This is called making an issue out of a non-issue.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-25 15:07:28 and read 17217 times.

Quoting EricR (Reply 18):
No competitor is going to waste their time and dollars on something so trivial, especially when all large carriers face this issue at one or more of their hubs. This is called making an issue out of a non-issue.

No competitor???

..you must be joking! All carriers these days are on the Southwest level of thinking .. aka anything goes and no one is above the fray!

The 1st commercial will show an 17yo kid with a backpack checking in... and he's sent a text saying 'congrats, now that you're 65, you're eligible for social security" .. as we see an old man checking in to board the pax version of a space shuttle!

BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: PanAm1971
Posted 2013-05-25 15:12:16 and read 17161 times.

I can't get over how boring this all looks. It's as though it was designed by the Borg.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: YYZAMS
Posted 2013-05-25 17:03:20 and read 16499 times.

Quoting EricR (Reply 15):
I am amazed at how many people complain about walking. You'll be on a plane for the next several hours. A walk will do you and your waistline some good.

haha! Agreed! Next thing you know they want the plane to drop them off at their house!

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: FWAERJ
Posted 2013-05-25 17:25:36 and read 16338 times.

Quoting EricR (Reply 18):
Oh, do you mean the same way that competitors have created slogans about the long walk at ORD when someone has on UA has to go from C31 to gate B2 or someone on AA that has to go from gate G21 to L8.

Or worse... the walk on UA where you go from Gate F11A to Gate C21 after your connecting flight into ORD was delayed by an hour and 15 minutes, where you have 20 minutes to make your connection from F11A to C21.

Trust me - it's bad, and I had to do it once, almost missing my connection in the process.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-05-25 18:37:19 and read 15939 times.

Quoting EricR (Reply 18):
Oh, do you mean the same way that competitors have created slogans about the long walk at ORD when someone has on UA has to go from C31 to gate B2 or someone on AA that has to go from gate G21 to L8.

No, it's a little different at ORD because everyone's walks are about the same. New Yorkers are used to short walks at all three airports, so a big terminal is something that is basically new (even EWR C--the largest single terminal in NYC--is compact compared to, say, MSP Lindbergh or DTW MacNamara). Will it make much difference? I can't argue that it will; maybe the odd passenger who flies only to Los Angeles will prefer UA for the ease of Terminal 7 as opposed to Terminal 4, but how many passengers fly to only one place?

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: DL747400
Posted 2013-05-25 19:12:15 and read 15725 times.

Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 17):
This is not a completed phase II

Yes, that is a completed Phase 2.

Phase 3 will include some changes to be reflected in new renderings.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-05-25 19:52:38 and read 15971 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
even EWR C--the largest single terminal in NYC

EWR is not in NYC. Saying it over and over will not make it so.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: EricR
Posted 2013-05-25 20:35:35 and read 15872 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 19):

No competitor???

..you must be joking! All carriers these days are on the Southwest level of thinking .. aka anything goes and no one is above the fray!

The 1st commercial will show an 17yo kid with a backpack checking in... and he's sent a text saying 'congrats, now that you're 65, you're eligible for social security" .. as we see an old man checking in to board the pax version of a space shuttle!

Yup.......this is such a big issue that it is going to cause DL to lose significant share in NY because someone has to walk to their gate (heaven forbid someone has to walk). Walking to a gate is not unique to DL, but keep exploiting an insignificant issue if it makes you feel better.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):

No, it's a little different at ORD because everyone's walks are about the same. New Yorkers are used to short walks at all three airports, so a big terminal is something that is basically new

.

Apparently you missed the larger point. The airport you compare it to is irrelevant. Furthermore, citizens of NYC probably are the most accustomed to walking out of any major US metro area. Therefore, while the concourse itself may be longer than other terminals, walking that distance is nothing new to New Yorkers.

[Edited 2013-05-25 21:02:46]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: questions
Posted 2013-05-25 21:08:29 and read 16121 times.

When Phase 3, the extension of T4A, will there be an underground walkway between concourses A and B? Or will connecting passengers have to walk through the main terminal/ head house?

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-25 23:05:07 and read 15671 times.

Quoting EricR (Reply 26):

Apparently you missed the larger point. The airport you compare it to is irrelevant. Furthermore, citizens of NYC probably are the most accustomed to walking out of any major US metro area. Therefore, while the concourse itself may be longer than other terminals, walking that distance is nothing new to New Yorkers.

I personally think the AA mess with the escalator down to walkway to escalator up is much worse. Annoying and slow. And then you get to the midfield concourse and you have a good walk to the right or left if you are unlucky.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: ikramerica
Posted 2013-05-25 23:25:07 and read 15606 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 28):

Agreed. The first and last time I was at AA JFK after the rebuild I was frustrated by that design, but even worse, AA had decided to sell the entire space to Microsoft, who made it a visual assault torture chamber you had no way to avoid. Has AA thought better of alienating their customers to sell someone else's product or do they still allow advertisers to hijack that space in an "in your face" manner.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mnik101
Posted 2013-05-26 01:33:39 and read 15260 times.

What strikes me as odd is that $1.2 billion, just to extend T4! and it just a really long concourse extension, not a new terminal.

I could understand the cost if it were part of a phased project to build a new separate terminal to replace T2 and T3 with one stand alone building, but that's not what has happened.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: PIEAvantiP180
Posted 2013-05-26 05:08:19 and read 14668 times.

Quoting mnik101 (Reply 30):

$1.2B did not just buy 9 extra gates at the end of B concourse. The terminal building it self went thru a renovation and expansion. Also a very good portion of that money will go into demolishing and paving over T3 site. From what i have read disposal and clean up of hazardous materials from T3 site will be one of the major expenses. Another factor to consider is that the construction was done with union labor that tends to be more costly especially in NY then non union labor, its just the cost of doing business in NYC these days. If this job was done in Tampa FL where I live the labor costs alone would probably be half of what they are paying workers at JFK.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-26 06:39:32 and read 14285 times.

They did quite a bit of work to the head house, especially on the lower level and AirTrain level

Expanded customs and immigration area, new baggage claim, new security checkpoint.

The actual departures hall was not expanded (much to my chagrin) but everything else was.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-05-26 11:24:39 and read 13653 times.

Quoting EricR (Reply 26):
Apparently you missed the larger point.

Not at all. Had you bothered to read the rest of my post, you'd see that I came to the same conclusion.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-26 13:49:55 and read 13463 times.

Quoting EricR (Reply 26):
Yup.......this is such a big issue that it is going to cause DL to lose significant share in NY because someone has to walk to their gate (heaven forbid someone has to walk).

I'm fit to dash it back n forth, but many people will not be, and trust me on this travellers fit or not - notice long corridors at certain airports! THIS ONE will be in the record books and is going to draw a lot of notice to those who tell themselves "I'm never coming thru this terminal again"...or 'I'm going to avoid this at all cost' . Frequent travelers notice these things regardless of how insignificant you think it is.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 31):
nother factor to consider is that the construction was done with union labor that tends to be more costly especially in NY then non union labor, its just the cost of doing business in NYC these days.

Yep! That's were most of that 1.2 Bil went... payroll!

This is like opening up a can coke.. and all the fizz is gone. ... this perfectly describes 'all over the place'. Good Luck Delta-JFK.. you're gonna need it

BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-26 14:15:15 and read 13395 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
This shows that the competition can chose to improve their already superior facilities with far less spending than DL is having to do just to appear to (but IMHO not quite reach) the level playing field.

As the US airlines return to competing with products, rather than on price, the layout and appearance of their facilities will matter more and more to their customers, specifically HVC"s,

And, while the facile argument today is that most customers don't care about the long walks, the narrow passageways, low ceilings, bad food choices, and cramped hold rooms, that argument is likely to lose some of its cogency as airports in such places from Sacramento to RDU (with their superior architecture and customer experience) begin to outshine airports in larger, more prominent cities.

At that point, it will be interesting to see what the Big 4 US airlines do about their main facilities, the decrepit as well as the poorly designed. As you indicated, at least two of them have much more to work with. That is not just true in NYC. See LAX and their other hubs.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-26 15:47:48 and read 13243 times.

Quoting mnik101 (Reply 30):
I could understand the cost if it were part of a phased project to build a new separate terminal to replace T2 and T3 with one stand alone building, but that's not what has happened.

Isn't that the plan? Isn't that why this was Phase I and we have Phases II and III to come to do exactly what you've described?

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: PIEAvantiP180
Posted 2013-05-26 17:46:46 and read 13068 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
Yep! That's were most of that 1.2 Bil went... payroll!

Dude no need for personal attacks. You might need to go back to an English course or two and learn reading comprehension. Where in that paragraph did I say payroll was where most of $1.2B went to. I clearly stated that it was part of the eqasion along with the actual expansion of T4 and demolition and disposal of materials form T3. Like I said union labor rates are usually higher then non union construction jobs, I did not say that being union was bad or that people don't deserve to make the most amount of money they can get. As I stated if this job was done in FL it would probably be less then $1.2B. You prove me wrong on anything I have stated and ill back of my statements.

[Edited 2013-05-26 18:12:50]

[Edited 2013-05-26 18:13:18]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mnik101
Posted 2013-05-26 17:46:59 and read 13081 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 36):
Quoting mnik101 (Reply 30):
I could understand the cost if it were part of a phased project to build a new separate terminal to replace T2 and T3 with one stand alone building, but that's not what has happened.

Isn't that the plan? Isn't that why this was Phase I and we have Phases II and III to come to do exactly what you've described?

Phase 1 alone was $1.2 billion. and it was just an expansion and rehab job of T4. To me it still seem like a lot of money for a pretty modest gain, even when you factor in the cost of doing business in NYC and the haz-mat abatement, demolition, and paving over of T3.

Just think they should have gotten a lot more for the money, and just don't' think it very efficient way of getting people to and from there planes given the length of the concourse.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-05-26 18:41:15 and read 12981 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 35):
And, while the facile argument today is that most customers don't care about the long walks, the narrow passageways, low ceilings, bad food choices, and cramped hold rooms, that argument is likely to lose some of its cogency as airports in such places from Sacramento to RDU (with their superior architecture and customer experience) begin to outshine airports in larger, more prominent cities.

The trouble is that New York is, well, New York and as nice as RDU and SMF (and DTW, IND, JAX and all the rest) might be, if I need to go to NYC, they don't do me much good. There are only a handful of decent terminals in NYC, and a couple of them have vocal detractors (see some of the discussion of Terminal 8 in this thread).

I think the Terminal 2/3 complex was so bad that some people were actively avoiding Delta. I know I avoided JFK connections in the past, instead opting for some other sub-optimal nearby locales (IAD, EWR). I'm much less likely to avoid JFK now. That's the point, not to have a Taj Mahal.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: RobertS975
Posted 2013-05-26 18:58:20 and read 12950 times.

I have been through the DL JFK facility many times and here were my peeves in no particular order: often arriving on an RJ from BOS, I detested having to lug my roll aboard piece up the stairs on those rinky dink gate positions on the back end of T2. The CBP facility has seen better days, sometimes escalators working, sometimes not. And the post CBP luggage re-check was too small and so was the post-CBP TSA check to get to your connecting flight. I have disliked the bus ride from T2/T3 over to T4, but in reality, that is not going away...

BTW, will the new post-CBP TSA security check point have a TSA pre-check line by any chance??

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-26 19:48:52 and read 12797 times.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 37):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
Yep! That's were most of that 1.2 Bil went... payroll!

Dude no need for personal attacks

What the hell are you talking 'personal attack'??? I've said nothing to you about you in any shape or form!

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 37):
You might need to go back to an English course or two and learn reading comprehension.

Now that is a personal attack - directed at the speaker (me) and very condescending..care to apologize?

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 37):
Where in that paragraph did I say payroll was where most of $1.2B went to. I clearly stated that it was part of the eqasion along with the actual expansion of T4 and demolition and disposal of materials form T3.

I never said you did, that is my assertion that it is payroll and mine alone.

I guarantee you if you could get your hands on a ledger disclosing full accounting of the 1.2 billion is expenditures - 600 million of that will NOT be materials! Payrolls will win out as the #1 item of cost.

New York construction/labor has long championed itemized cost in any category of development right after real estate acquisitions - for decades now! And in this deal there were no real estate acquisitions necessary...so where did the money go???

I sure as hell hope the architect who said "let's extend the piers into super long fingers' did get anything above a C note!

BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: PIEAvantiP180
Posted 2013-05-26 19:59:23 and read 12773 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 41):

I can admit when I'm wrong, I do apologize how I reacted. I interpreted that statement as that you were taking a pop shot at me for starting that union labor costs were so much and was solely blaming them for the $1.2B cost.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-26 20:16:09 and read 12709 times.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 42):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 41):

I can admit when I'm wrong, I do apologize how I reacted. I interpreted that statement as that you were taking a pop shot at me for starting that union labor costs were so much and was solely blaming them for the $1.2B cost.

Thank you, I was fully endorsing your point..which is the spot on truth about NY Labor Cost.

I had a buddy who worked on every bridge (upkeep and overhauls) and many skyscrapers in NYC..and to listen to that guy layout city labor costs was mind-blowing!

BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: questions
Posted 2013-05-26 20:28:07 and read 12690 times.

I don't understand all the complaining about the length of "finger" T4B. It appears to be about the same length as half of ATL's concourse A or B which do not have moving walkways. And the ceiling height appears about the same!

Granted T4 is neither architecturally significant nor a grand public/people space, however it is vastly more functional and efficient than T3. Which of Delta's domestic hubs/growing focus cities is anything other than a utilitarian transportation centre?

- ATL... no
- JFK... no
- LGA... no
- CVG... no
- DTW... no
- MSP... no
- MEM... no
- SLC... no
- SEA... no
- LAX... no

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-27 00:23:10 and read 12544 times.

Quoting questions (Reply 44):
I don't understand all the complaining about the length of "finger" T4B. It appears to be about the same length as half of ATL's concourse A or B which do not have moving walkways

You couldn't be more wrong .. 'same length as HALF of ATL's A or B?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rainer Bexten




Count the number of jets for half (or the entire concourse for that matter) and consider that the JFK finger gates are fixed-widebody gates whereas you see what's parked at the ATL gates, no 747s, no A340s, no A380s.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-05-27 01:35:25 and read 12470 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 45):

Do you have any numbers?
Delta's JFK Term T-4B looks 1/2 the size of Delta's Detroit terminal

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: PIEAvantiP180
Posted 2013-05-27 04:38:51 and read 12309 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 45):
Quoting cokepopper (Reply 46):

Rough estimate using google earth and its measuring feature shows about 2200ft from start to end of T4B concourse, and that will become longer once the 11RJ gates are added on the end, with people movers available in T4B.
DTW south terminal concourse A is roughly 4900ft long overall and we can estimate about 2450ft from center to end, with a automated people mover if you need to go from one end to the other.
By the looks of it ATL concourse A is the longest at about 2400ft long and 1200ft from center line, so if you are connecting from one end of A to the other and as someone mentioned ATL does not have people movers its just about the same walk as if you were to walk from one end of T4B to the other.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-05-27 06:50:54 and read 12177 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
THIS ONE will be in the record books and is going to draw a lot of notice to those who tell themselves

Try going from a gate like A1 to B30 in ATL.
Or try going from E30 to B12 in CLT.
Or try going from C1 to D20 in IAD.

I'm not saying it's ideal, but there are plenty of other airports with long walks and it's not that big of a problem.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-05-27 07:01:52 and read 12119 times.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 47):
Rough estimate using google earth and its measuring feature shows about 2200ft from start to end of T4B concourse, and that will become longer once the 11RJ gates are added on the end, with people movers available in T4B.
DTW south terminal concourse A is roughly 4900ft long overall and we can estimate about 2450ft from center to end, with a automated people mover if you need to go from one end to the other.
By the looks of it ATL concourse A is the longest at about 2400ft long and 1200ft from center line, so if you are connecting from one end of A to the other and as someone mentioned ATL does not have people movers its just about the same walk as if you were to walk from one end of T4B to the other.

Thanks for the facts! I did the walk this past weekend (both international arrivals, as well as departures), the 'feeling' of the length will be different between the two. For departures, there are plenty of distractions along the way (shops, restaurants, etc.) so the walk won't feel long. International arrivals is in a sterile area and the path is pretty much two straight lines, one after another, so it will feel longer to many people. And probably because it's just a plain 'straight-through' walk (without 'distractions' such as an up and then a down escalator to break the monotony), people will feel that it is longer than it really is. Overall, I don't think that it is as bad as many (who have yet to try it) make it out to be.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 48):
Try going from a gate like A1 to B30 in ATL.
Or try going from E30 to B12 in CLT.
Or try going from C1 to D20 in IAD.

Or in AMS from the B gates to the G gates
Or BRU from the Schengen arrivals just to baggage claim
Or JFK T8 from the extreme of the satellite terminal (say gate 47) to immigration

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Josh32121
Posted 2013-05-27 07:46:18 and read 12032 times.

Another thing: New Yorkers are accustomed to walking much more than people who live in other cities (in the U.S., at least). I vote moot point.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: EricR
Posted 2013-05-27 08:04:42 and read 11972 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):

travellers fit or not - notice long corridors at certain airports! THIS ONE will be in the record books and is going to draw a lot of notice to those who tell themselves "I'm never coming thru this terminal again"...or 'I'm going to avoid this at all cost' . Frequent travelers notice these things regardless of how insignificant you think it is.

I agree with you that travelers will notice it is a long concourse only IF they are one of the few that have to travel the full length of the concourse from ticketing area to the last gate (which the majority of passengers will not, especially connecting traffic).

But the length of this concourse is not unprecedented by any means. Passengers may prefer shorter walks, but I find it hard to believe that this will deter passengers from using this concourse based on its length when there are far more important determining factors such as price, frequency, timing, N/S routes, FFP, etc.

Those people who say they are going to avoid this terminal due to its length manage to get around shopping malls, venues that require you to park in one location and watch the event in another location, or walk from one city block to another city block. Walking the distance of this concourse is no different.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-05-27 08:39:41 and read 11888 times.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 47):

Correct. I think some fail to realize that ATL has the potential for the longest concourse walk in the DL system. Combine that with a congested, utilitarian concourse and you have the worst connecting experience. ATL and tight connections don't go together. Once the newness wears off, T4B will have a similar experience. It doesn't necessarily drive business away, but it's certainly a far cry from state-of-the-art.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-27 08:52:40 and read 11822 times.

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 46):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 45):

Do you have any numbers?
Delta's JFK Term T-4B looks 1/2 the size of Delta's Detroit terminal

If you look...you're quoting my reply 45... I was countering a claim made about ATL - where are you pulling DTW from ATL?

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 47):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 45):
Quoting cokepopper (Reply 46):

DTW

Again...my reply #45 which you chose to quote counters an ATL claim..not DTW, how hard is it to stay focused on a simple comparison?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 48):


I'm not saying it's ideal, but there are plenty of other airports with long walks and it's not that big of a problem.

Yes there are, but as new structures are introduced into all advancing societies convenience is at the forefront of consideration...not a regression of it.

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 50):
Another thing: New Yorkers are accustomed to walking much more than people who live in other cities (in the U.S., at least).

True they are..but usually they are not pulling luggage (not the air bound travelers anyway). But it's not the majority of New Yorkers who are gonna get fed up with this...it'll be connecting pax who'll make the most noise. Count on it. Just we hear A.netters complaining about transiting LAX and other airports..let the novelty wear off and give it a few months before they add this one to the list.

Quoting EricR (Reply 51):
But the length of this concourse is not unprecedented by any means. Passengers may prefer shorter walks, but I find it hard to believe that this will deter passengers from using this concourse based on its length when there are far more important determining factors such as price, frequency, timing, N/S routes, FFP, etc.

Of course it is not unprecedented, but 'new' is synonymous with better, improvement.. it triggers expectations in people (Americans anyway) that some previous concerns (in this case - travel hassles) will be eliminated. Long terminal walks is the longest running saga (and joke in the airline-airport history). We;ll see what happens, but seriously, expend this to 'not go away'... simply because it is Kennedy. If people are easily annoyed and will gripe endlessly about leaking pipes/ceilings, etc in T3 - take away the leaky pipes and give them a nice shiny new terminal and add on top of that a nice long hike with their bags and hold your breath til they let loose on that.

BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-27 09:26:41 and read 11738 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 52):
Correct. I think some fail to realize that ATL has the potential for the longest concourse walk in the DL system. Combine that with a congested, utilitarian concourse and you have the worst connecting experience. ATL and tight connections don't go together.

Not sure about that. I've heard that MSP isn't exactly a pleasant connecting experience. Not my experience, as I haven't been there. It's just what I've heard from someone that goes thru there quite often.


To me, when DL had a hub at DFW, that was a terrible connecting experience, at least within the concourse. I personally don't like MEM.......concourses too congested, low ceilings and the acoustics are terrible (difficult to hear any gate announcements). SLC can be a pain in the butt to connect in........from "B" concourse to D-12 or to the "E" concourse will test your stamina.


What it comes down to is this........JFK's T4B IS an improvement, you have to admit, over T3 and it IS a new terminal for DL.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-05-27 11:05:42 and read 11583 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Of course it is not unprecedented, but 'new' is synonymous with better, improvement.. it triggers expectations in people (Americans anyway) that some previous concerns (in this case - travel hassles) will be eliminated.

And compared to T3, this will have eliminated many of those problems so it is an improvement. The key is that T3 was legitimately scaring away some high yield customers, this new terminal won't do that. Sure the walks are long, but not long enough to scare anyone away.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-05-27 11:22:46 and read 11532 times.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 37):
You might need to go back to an English course or two and learn reading comprehension.
Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 37):
higher 'then' non union

And you might consider a spelling course.

Quoting mayor (Reply 54):
I've heard that MSP isn't exactly a pleasant connecting experience.

I missed a connection when traveling between the middle of F to G21.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: luckyone
Posted 2013-05-27 11:29:38 and read 11529 times.

I'm sorry, this is hilarious. People complaining about long walks vs. people complaining about cramped concourses. Well which way do you want it? Do you want a spacious concourse with room for everybody? Or do you want a cramped concourse with a short walk but be sitting on top of five other flights? While complaining about this new ARRANGEMENT (for fear of calling it a new terminal *GASP*), why not consider the massive Dubai terminals. Or PEK T3, there is a people mover between the various concourses of the terminal, but not between the gates. One still has to walk.. Walking in one of DFW's terminals isn't a breeze. MIA Concourse D (Yes there's a train but it's still a hike from the end of the train to many of the gates), DEL, or Heathrow T3? Somebody else mentioned Amsterdam. Or CDG (S3 is massive). Or BKK. Frankfurt is not a short walk in the park either. None of these are deterrents to passengers. Some people just will not be pleased. And honestly, have we become THAT lazy that a little walking is too much???

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: PIEAvantiP180
Posted 2013-05-27 14:02:03 and read 11287 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):

I was just replaying to both posts with one. Since you mentioned ATL and post 46 mentioned DTW I decided to post lenght for all three terminals JFK, ATL, and DTW just for comparisons sake.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 56):

I'll be the first one to admit that I'm one of the world's worst speller but in what way is then not spelled correctly. Or am I not using it gramatically correct and instead of then there should be a than.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: EricR
Posted 2013-05-27 14:18:59 and read 11239 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):


Quoting EricR (Reply 26):
Apparently you missed the larger point.

Not at all. Had you bothered to read the rest of my post, you'd see that I came to the same conclusion.

I read your full post, but I don't think your read my full post because I specifically referenced the tangent you went off on with regard to ORD.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: TeamInTheSky
Posted 2013-05-27 14:28:00 and read 11239 times.

Hi All,

I have read through this, and as I have commented in the past, I feel like the walking argument is ridiculous. I hardly believe that people would avoid an airport because of walking distance. Additionally, if walking is an issue, then all you have to do is hop onto one of those beeping carts that tend to take direct aim at me when I am passing through an airport. I understand that an elderly person or very infrequent traveler might be dissuaded by the walk (or seemingly a politician used to LGA to DCA/BOS flights), but I hardly believe seasoned business travelers used to flying to AMS, CDG, FRA, SIN, PEK or HKG will pay much mind to the walk in that terminal.

What I am most interested in, and it does not seem to be settled, is what additional changes are coming? It does not seem like it was ever put to rest whether the RJ gates are part of the new announcement or what additionally was being added on.

Also, with Branson there on Thursday, is there any additional information on the JV with VS? I understand that VS is in T4B, correct? I wonder if Delta passengers will soon have access to the Virgin Lounge? I would presume that it will only be accessible if you are flying Virgin and are Platinum or Diamond.

Regards,

Team

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: panamair
Posted 2013-05-27 14:38:46 and read 11237 times.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 60):
what additional changes are coming? It does not seem like it was ever put to rest whether the RJ gates are part of the new announcement or what additionally was being added on.

The RJ gates will be added as part of Phase II. Construction start is imminent, and scheduled to be completed by mid-2015.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 60):
is there any additional information on the JV with VS?

They've applied and are waiting to hear from the authorities.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 60):
I understand that VS is in T4B, correct?

No, VS and VX are in T4A. The eventual solution (no timeline) is to get most if not all Skyteam and Delta alliance partners into T4 (maybe except for AF and KE since they have an ownership stake in T1).

[Edited 2013-05-27 14:40:12]

[Edited 2013-05-27 14:40:41]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: blue100
Posted 2013-05-27 15:14:03 and read 11115 times.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 60):
I have read through this, and as I have commented in the past, I feel like the walking argument is ridiculous. I hardly believe that people would avoid an airport because of walking distance.

In general, I would have to agree with the above. However, I will say that after my poor experience connecting at CDG from 2E to 2D last summer, I will try my best to avoid flying through there. I think the comments regarding Terminal 4 could have some validity if you are connecting flights at JFK and if you are doing a T2 to T4 connection (or vice versa). However, as many others have pointed out, plenty of other airports have much longer connecting walks. Also, I found T4 after security to be rather dull so I hope that the new addition to the concourse adds some character to the terminal.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-27 15:55:24 and read 11062 times.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 57):
I'm sorry, this is hilarious. People complaining about long walks vs. people complaining about cramped concourses. Well which way do you want it? Do you want a spacious concourse with room for everybody? Or do you want a cramped concourse with a short walk but be sitting on top of five other flights?

A long walk is a symptom of the real problem, and not the problem itself. The problem is that the old T4 is already outdated despite all of its "newness." It was and remains a corporate box with a glass wall, supported by a space frame, fronting for a people processor (i.e, two narrow and low piers, one of which just got much longer). It is also not the case, as we have seen with the new aviation palaces, that spacious concourses and human scale are mutually-exclusive.

Not wanting to digress any further from the main topic, let me suggest an essay that might help in understanding some of the criticism. It is the title essay in the book "Now boarding: Fentress Architects+The Architecture of Flight." The essay recounts the history of the airport terminal and lays out the criteria by which the best architects of this building type now grade their own work. (Fentress architects designed the Inchon airport and new TBIT/LAX.)

For some further reading, you can find the descriptions that Richard Rogers and Norman Foster give of their respective airport projects on their websites. Both architects have become synonymous with this type, from Madrid to Hong Kong. You will see that their descriptions confirm the conclusions the essay makes about what constitutes a state of the art airport terminal.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-05-27 16:07:36 and read 11042 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 54):
Not sure about that. I've heard that MSP isn't exactly a pleasant connecting experience. Not my experience, as I haven't been there. It's just what I've heard from someone that goes thru there quite often.

I've done the Google Earth measurements, and I'm near certain that ATL has the longest potential unassisted walk of the DL hubs. An example would be like A1 to B1. And with the busy concourses, you're usually wading through a crowd the whole time. Not a fun experience with a tight connection. It's longer than it seems.

MSP and DTW actually have longer potential walks, but both offer moving walkways for part or most of that distance. MSP can be long, but if you walk briskly, the longest trek is about 15 minutes, the end of F to the end of either A or B. I've done that connection once and timed it out. Plus there usually isn't as much concourse congestion at either MSP or DTW. To me, the bad rap MSP gets is overstated.

It looks like the new T4B will be just a bit shorter ATL's longest hike, if you're not coming from T2. And there's moving walkways to help with part of it. But it is a sizable connecting distance, and a future addition of RJ gates will only extend the time. It's not ideal, that's for certain. I doubt it will have any significant impact on the business side of it, but passengers do keep note of it.

Quoting mayor (Reply 54):
What it comes down to is this........JFK's T4B IS an improvement, you have to admit, over T3 and it IS a new terminal for DL.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that. You can't get much lower than T3. It's the level of improvement that's debated.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-27 20:44:54 and read 10748 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 63):

Thanks, perfessor.......I'll be sure to pick up a copy next time I have insomnia.  




What did you expect DL to build? I would think most travellers are just going to be happy that it's not T3, anymore and won't care if there's no Taj Mahal, there. Considering the space constraints that govern what happens at JFK, I think DL did well to use what they could (T4) with what they had available. Of course, the usual suspects on A.net will always find something to bitch about when it comes to DL, so I shouldn't be surprised. If DL had built a million sq. ft. terminal with moving walkways to each gate, they'd still find something to complain about. I'd like to say that I'd like to get used to it, but I don't believe I ever will.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-05-28 04:52:44 and read 10489 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 65):
I would think most travellers are just going to be happy that it's not T3, anymore and won't care if there's no Taj Mahal, there.

Never mind most travelers; I'd say the same of most a.netters. It's not like the other hubs in the northeast (EWR, IAD, PHL) are great facilities, though EWR and PHL aren't bad if flying mainline.

Quoting mayor (Reply 65):
Considering the space constraints that govern what happens at JFK, I think DL did well to use what they could (T4) with what they had available.

Although I agree that DL really didn't NEED to build anything nicer, given what B6 and AA were able to do just a few hundred feet away, it seems disingenuous to suggest that DL WASN'T ABLE to build anything nicer.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-05-28 05:24:59 and read 10426 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 65):
What did you expect DL to build?

I think the building itself is in line with the expectations of the public, and as you note, a great improvement over the T3 'experience' which indeed may have been chasing business away. On the other hand we see DL having to spend huge sums and huge amounts of time to try to get some where short of half way to where they think they can get, and is still IMHO short of where their NYC competitors now are already at.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: FSDan
Posted 2013-05-28 05:46:28 and read 10426 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 64):
MSP can be long, but if you walk briskly, the longest trek is about 15 minutes, the end of F to the end of either A or B.

   I had to walk from near the end of F to halfway down A on my last connection through MSP. It took something like 15-20 minutes with the help of the moving walkways in C. It was just a 40 minute connection, so I'm glad it wasn't any longer than that. I must say that MSP is an EXTREMELY efficient airport to connect through, although as an aviation enthusiast I wouldn't mind a few extra hours to spend in the observation deck.

That said, I've never had a bad connecting experience through ATL either. I always have enough time to chill at the southern end of one of the concourses for a while and watch the M88s and 767s thunder off 9L/27R.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 66):
EWR and PHL aren't bad if flying mainline

That's a big if these days... especially if you're not going to the West Coast, Florida, or international.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-05-28 05:51:15 and read 10385 times.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 68):
That's a big if these days... especially if you're not going to the West Coast, Florida, or international.

Not as much so at PHL, as (like at CLT) E-Jets use mainline gates.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-05-28 06:00:13 and read 10381 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 67):
I think the building itself is in line with the expectations of the public, and as you note, a great improvement over the T3 'experience' which indeed may have been chasing business away. On the other hand we see DL having to spend huge sums and huge amounts of time to try to get some where short of half way to where they think they can get, and is still IMHO short of where their NYC competitors now are already at.

What I don't understand is the failure of people to comprehend that this adequate and functional upgrade cost $1.3B. The next phase will cost over $200M and the final phase will probably cost another $500M. All in all, the entire project will cost somewhere in the ballpark of $2B. Yet, so many people on a.net think that the terminal is not "grand enough".

Think about that for a second. It is going to cost $2B to build what they are going to end up with. Shouldn't there be an acknowledgment that a facility needs to actually be cost effective? If it is too expensive, carriers can't justify building it. OR operations will be so expensive that carriers will not use it once it is built.

Delta, JFKIAT and PANYNJ spent over a decade and a half looking at various options to make this investment even possible. You all would not believe the number of plans they looked at. Virtually everything suggested in this thread was considered. This includes the parallel concourse option. It includes a giant facility that would have connected T4 with T1 with an entirely new headhouse in the middle. It even included a brand spanking new facility located where the old Tower Air terminal is.

They looked at everything. They evaluated the economics of everything. They ended up with this $2B project. Its not like they went cheap on it. The second guessing here is being done without the benefit of any architectural, operational, functional, financial or economic analysis. Feel free to keep on doing it, but people shouldn't pretend that they have a better idea because its most likely they don't.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: peanuts
Posted 2013-05-28 06:15:24 and read 10363 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 70):
but people shouldn't pretend that they have a better idea because its most likely they don't.

   Pffffffffffff....(I hear ego's being deflated).
Most of these posters sit on the couch thinking they have important opinions not realizing it doesn't really matter.
Hysterical.

Bottom line: This terminal is way better (yes, in all aspects) than having to stare at hoses and other contraptions hanging from a ceiling. That was simply pathetic.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-05-28 06:21:08 and read 10343 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 70):
What I don't understand is the failure of people to comprehend that this adequate and functional upgrade cost $1.3B. The next phase will cost over $200M and the final phase will probably cost another $500M. All in all, the entire project will cost somewhere in the ballpark of $2B. Yet, so many people on a.net think that the terminal is not "grand enough".

   (and I agree with the rest of your post too, but no sense quoting all of it)

One thing that hasn't been discussed here is that cost-effectiveness is appropriate (and common) with all new terminals in this country now. Compare Terminal 2 at SFO with the international terminal, or the MacNamara and North terminals at DTW. Even the new international terminal at ATL--which is not perfect but is fairly functional and reasonably attractive--isn't an ICN-style Taj Mahal.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: richierich
Posted 2013-05-28 06:55:56 and read 10220 times.

In all my days, I have never heard of an airline using the length of the walk to the gate in their advertising pitch. And it isn't going to happen at JFK either.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-28 08:43:55 and read 10038 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 70):
They looked at everything. They evaluated the economics of everything. They ended up with this $2B project. Its not like they went cheap on it. The second guessing here is being done without the benefit of any architectural, operational, functional, financial or economic analysis. Feel free to keep on doing it, but people shouldn't pretend that they have a better idea because its most likely they don't.

And, you should not pretend that you know what the other alternatives cost or that you know what can be done with $2 billion dollars. The projected cost for the new TBIT/LAX (when one adds the remaining airside element) will be about $2 billion. Barajas T4 cost about $2+ billion. One can do much more with $2 Billion dollars than was done or will be done at T4.

There is just no hiding the complete lack of vision, imagination, and will behind the T4 expansion. As I said, the building was never considered a great example of the building type in the first place. And, while that my not be much of a problem in lesser cities like Atlanta, it should be a problem in New York by comparison with other world capitals like London and soon Los Angeles, with their signature international terminals.

As to going cheap on it, that mistake was committed years ago and it just keeps making matters worse. The PA did not develop the original T4 building; a private company (JFKIAT) did. Years later, that deal continues to limit what the PA could have done with T4 itself and any adjacent parcels of land. Go through the scenarios. Why wasn't a midfield concourse feasible? There was room for it, but its construction would have impaired the use of the existing gates (temporally or permanently). That would not have been much of a problem if the PA owned the terminal, but it would have been a problem for JFKIAT for whom each gate is a source of revenue and profit. JFKIAT's stake in T4 most likely also meant that any wholesale replacement of T4 was conditioned on Delta or the PA buying them out. As has been the case with Delta elsewhere (i.e., Atlanta), once the the true costs of the appropriate solution were known, it didn't want to take more of a financial risk than was necessary.

Whatever the case, this is much more of a loss for New York City and the PA. Delta didn't help any, but that is becoming its track record.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: TeamInTheSky
Posted 2013-05-28 09:17:23 and read 9962 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
Whatever the case, this is much more of a loss for New York City and the PA. Delta didn't help any, but that is becoming its track record.

With all due respect, you must not be a shareholder of DL or a taxpayer of NYC, because as a shareholder, I simply wanted improved functionality, which was achieved.

A loss for the city, really? Seems a bit dramatic to me.

Regards,

Team

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-05-28 09:38:14 and read 9888 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
And, you should not pretend that you know what the other alternatives cost or that you know what can be done with $2 billion dollars.

How do you know that Jetlanta doesn't know what the alternatives cost?

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
That would not have been much of a problem if the PA owned the terminal, but it would have been a problem for JFKIAT for whom each gate is a source of revenue and profit.

It would have been a problem no matter who owned the gates, because there would be no where for many of the flights to go while the gates were closed.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
One can do much more with $2 Billion dollars than was done or will be done at T4.

Not in NYC where 2 Billion isn't nearly as much as you think it is. Between the high cost of anything in NYC, the unions, the JFKIAT and the corrupt PANYNJ, nothing gets done cheaply.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
Whatever the case, this is much more of a loss for New York City and the PA.

Why is it such a loss? Do people pick where they fly based on how much of an architectural marvel the airport is? I've never met anyone who picked their flights based on airport architecture or the length of the concourse.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: MCOAviationFan
Posted 2013-05-28 11:12:46 and read 9649 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 70):
Delta, JFKIAT and PANYNJ spent over a decade and a half looking at various options to make this investment even possible. You all would not believe the number of plans they looked at. Virtually everything suggested in this thread was considered. This includes the parallel concourse option

Jet, are you open to sharing the reasons why the parallel concourse option was not selected or is that confidential? It would be very interesting to gain a better understanding. Thanks!

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-05-28 12:04:14 and read 9570 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
And, you should not pretend that you know what the other alternatives cost or that you know what can be done with $2 billion dollars. The projected cost for the new TBIT/LAX (when one adds the remaining airside element) will be about $2 billion. Barajas T4 cost about $2+ billion. One can do much more with $2 Billion dollars than was done or will be done at T4.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 76):
How do you know that Jetlanta doesn't know what the alternatives cost?

LDV, I had fairly intimate knowledge of the options through the mid-2000's. Even in that period, anything that was "new" construction was astronomically expensive. Keep in mind that a new, Delta-only facility would ultimately be larger than T8 and need to accommodate a significantly larger operation than AA had at JFK. The AA facility cost $1.2B over a decade ago.

A new DL facility would need to be located on a parcel of land that was considered inadequate from an operational perspective. Dozens and dozens of concepts were considered, including the one announced prior to 9/11. Anything that required a new headhouse was going to be astronomically expensive. That expense became untenable once the slot regime solidified at JFK and it became clear that future growth was going to be limited.

As a result, any extravagant new facility could not be justified because Delta could never add enough flights to generate adequate revenue to pay for it. That fact, tied with space constraints in the T2/T3 footprint, meant that they'd be building an entire new headhouse and yet only be able to accommodate fewer than 30 gates. So basically, they'd end up with a facility that was about the same size they will have at T4 ultimately, but would have needed to spend dramatically more to get it.

And, on top of that, they'd have to phase in construction while T2 and T3 were still in operation. This would have been an extreme logistical nightmare AND very expensive.

But, to your point, a new terminal might have had wider concourses and higher ceilings. Seems like a great deal for an extra couple of billion dollars.

What I don't understand is why you think that Delta overpaid for what they got. Does Delta really seem like a carrier that likes to throw money away? Building a facility like this in a place like JFK is far more expensive than you seem to think. You can't compare it to any other facility. If a better deal could have been had, Delta wouldn't have spent over a decade negotiating THIS deal. Trust me, they squeezed every penny out of it, just like they did with Terminal F in ATL.

Quoting MCOAviationFan (Reply 77):
Jet, are you open to sharing the reasons why the parallel concourse option was not selected or is that confidential? It would be very interesting to gain a better understanding. Thanks!

I'm not sure what the final answer to that was. But, if I recall, one of the issues was that it was really expensive and it netted FEWER gates than just extending the existing concourses.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: OA412
Posted 2013-05-28 12:07:52 and read 9581 times.

Ugh some of the comments in this thread are just ridiculous, especially coming from those who haven't actually visited the new facility. What I've seen of the facility in pictures looks nice, especially compared to T3, but I'll reserve any final judgement until I see it in person.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 63):
The problem is that the old T4 is already outdated despite all of its "newness." It was and remains a corporate box with a glass wall, supported by a space frame, fronting for a people processor (i.e, two narrow and low piers, one of which just got much longer).

T4 at LAX is even more dated, yet that hasn't stopped you from extolling its virtues...

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 70):
Shouldn't there be an acknowledgment that a facility needs to actually be cost effective?

You would think so.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 72):
One thing that hasn't been discussed here is that cost-effectiveness is appropriate (and common) with all new terminals in this country now.

Indeed. T4 is not an outlyer one way or the other.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
And, you should not pretend that you know what the other alternatives cost or that you know what can be done with $2 billion dollars.

Do you know either of these things?

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
The projected cost for the new TBIT/LAX (when one adds the remaining airside element) will be about $2 billion.

It was originally 1.4 billion, then ballooned to 2 billion. You are assuming that labor, cost of construction, materials, etc. are all equivalent between LA and NYC. I don't know if that's the case or not, but it would be necessary to know this before we can draw any conclusions.

If DL were to have completely rebuilt T4B and thus made the terminal look "lopsided," you'd still be complaining about how the building's architectural integrity was compromised.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
Barajas T4 cost about $2+ billion. One can do much more with $2 Billion dollars than was done or will be done at T4.

Talk about specious reasoning. Leaving aside that T4 in Madrid was completed almost 10 years ago when costs were lower, you are comparing a terminal project in Spain with one in NYC. The current cost of living in Madrid is significantly lower than the cost of living in NYC. Nevermind the difference in the early 2000's when Madrid T4 was constructed. Labor costs, construction costs, material costs, etc. are all likely to have been lower in Madrid than in NYC. All that said, I don't see how you can try and make a comparison between the cost of a terminal completed almost 10 years ago in a foreign country, with one that will not be completed until around the end of the decade in the United States.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
There is just no hiding the complete lack of vision, imagination, and will behind the T4 expansion.

  Funny, when DL first announced this terminal project you were telling us how they were going to ruin a terminal designed to look like a Japanese pavilion...

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
As I said, the building was never considered a great example of the building type in the first place.

Does it have to be? Isn't it more important that a terminal be functional, efficient, and above all superior to what it is replacing. By all accounts, T4 fits the bill. There are numerous reports of high-yield flyers avoiding DL because of T3. T4 appears to be an improvement over T3. It didn't need to be some architectural masterpiece, it needed to be better than what it replaced.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
And, while that my not be much of a problem in lesser cities like Atlanta, it should be a problem in New York by comparison with other world capitals like London and soon Los Angeles, with their signature international terminals.

  This arrogance is appalling. I didn't see it when I was growing up in Los Angeles, but see it more and more the longer I'm away. Just because a city is not a "world capital" or "on par" with Los Angeles, NYC, or London doesn't mean that it deserves less than what those cities have. I see plenty of examples of these sort of attitude from people in large cities on either coast, and it goes a long way to explaining why some people in "flyover" country think that those on the coast are a bunch of out-of-touch elitists.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
As to going cheap on it, that mistake was committed years ago and it just keeps making matters worse.

Like I said, I thought it was a Japanese pavilion...

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
Why wasn't a midfield concourse feasible? There was room for it, but its construction would have impaired the use of the existing gates

You tell us. Do you have the numbers to suggest that it was viable? Just because there was room for it, doesn't mean that it made economic sense to build a midfield concourse.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
As has been the case with Delta elsewhere (i.e., Atlanta), once the the true costs of the appropriate solution were known, it didn't want to take more of a financial risk than was necessary.

Are you suggesting that companies should be taking financial risks regardless of the payoff?

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
Whatever the case, this is much more of a loss for New York City and the PA. Delta didn't help any, but that is becoming its track record.

Of course. With all due respect, your comments in this thread, the other thread on T4, and most any thread about DL in general betray how threatened you seem to be by DL. I suspect you realize that this new terminal is an improvement over DL's previous facility, and DL now stands a good chance of stealing some high-yiedling traffic from AA.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 76):
How do you know that Jetlanta doesn't know what the alternatives cost?

Indeed. I'd be interested in knowing this as well.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 76):
It would have been a problem no matter who owned the gates, because there would be no where for many of the flights to go while the gates were closed.

Precisely. It may have been feasible, but that doesn't mean it was practical.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 76):
Not in NYC where 2 Billion isn't nearly as much as you think it is. Between the high cost of anything in NYC, the unions, the JFKIAT and the corrupt PANYNJ, nothing gets done cheaply.

  

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 76):
Why is it such a loss? Do people pick where they fly based on how much of an architectural marvel the airport is? I've never met anyone who picked their flights based on airport architecture or the length of the concourse.

That's what I just don't understand about some of these comments regarding walking and architectural marvels. Some of the walks at my home airport can be quite long. True I don't have a choice, but I've never heard anyone say they won't connect in DEN because of the long walks. Connecting from one end of B at DEN to the other isn't exactly a short walk, but people aren't actively avoiding DEN because of that fact. Same goes for ATL. I cannot recall a single time when someone told me they chose one airport over another because of a shorter walk. Nor can I remember a single airline advertising that their terminal features a shorter walk than a competitor's terminal.

As far as architectural masterpieces, they're great but I'd be surprised if they were the number one reason why a passenger would choose one airport over another. For instance, when I need to get to DC, I fly F9 in spite of the fact that they utilize Terminal A at DC because they offer a superior schedule to UA's 1 daily, and it's far more convenient to fly into DCA than into IAD.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-28 12:20:24 and read 9537 times.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 79):
Funny, when DL first announced this terminal project you were telling us how they were going to ruin a terminal designed to look like a Japanese pavilion...

I remember when the whole T4 extension came about. There was a certain NYC know-it-all that proclaimed B.S. They said that they were JUST at a port authority meeting the week prior and there was no mention of a T4 extension, further, there are no imminent plans. Then not even days later the T4B renderings were leaked and the rest is history.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-05-28 12:22:13 and read 9534 times.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 79):
As far as architectural masterpieces, they're great but I'd be surprised if they were the number one reason why a passenger would choose one airport over another. For instance, when I need to get to DC, I fly F9 in spite of the fact that they utilize Terminal A at DC because they offer a superior schedule to UA's 1 daily, and it's far more
convenient to fly into DCA than into IAD.

As you acknowledge, though, there's a difference between "masterpiece" and functional. If we look at DL's facilities in a place like SFO, they are not functional, and if I did a lot of JFK-SFO, I might prefer UA for that reason. Terminal 4 is a different situation.

To me, there are two really important questions:

1) Is T-4 an improvement over T-3? The answer to this is, I think, an unqualified "yes," and that should mean that some folks (including me) who had booked away from DL/JFK will take another look.

2) How functional is T-4? I think T-4 will ultimately function pretty well, but we have to conclude that the jury is still out on this since the facility has only been open for a matter of days and isn't yet built out.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 79):
Indeed. T4 is not an outlyer one way or the other.

It is not. I really like the comparison to the north terminal at DTW, and if we are honest about that terminal, I think we come to the following conclusion: Everything works reasonably well, but it lacks natural light and concessions and is fairly architecturally boring. Isn't that basically a good description of Terminal 4? No one criticizes DTW like we've seen in this thread.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-05-28 12:45:22 and read 9504 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 81):
It is not. I really like the comparison to the north terminal at DTW, and if we are honest about that terminal, I think we come to the following conclusion: Everything works reasonably well, but it lacks natural light and concessions and is fairly architecturally boring. Isn't that basically a good description of Terminal 4? No one criticizes DTW like we've seen in this thread.

Is there a lot of natural light on the concourses at T8 at JFK? I've never been, but photos don't seem to reveal a lot of windows. Certainly the headhouse at T4 is more attractive than T8 with its giant blank wall where the other half of the building is supposed to be.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-05-28 13:01:18 and read 9484 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 82):
Is there a lot of natural light on the concourses at T8 at JFK? I've never been, but photos don't seem to reveal a lot of windows.

I think it's a similar amount to DTW/North (both are less than the MacNamara Terminal, which I expect you know pretty well).

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: AT
Posted 2013-05-28 14:12:05 and read 9422 times.

By the way I landed on Sunday night in Terminal 2 at JFK and wanted to take the air-side bus over to check out the new Terminal 4 area but they required a boarding pass (which I didn't have since it was the end of my journey).

Will this always be the case? What if there are passengers who are in Terminal 2 who want to stop by to use the superior restaurant/shopping facilities in Terminal 4 ?

Also, it seems Delta has only 8 new gates at Terminal 4. But there were more than 8 gates at Terminal 3, so is this currently a net loss of gates?

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-28 16:15:23 and read 9214 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 78):
But, to your point, a new terminal might have had wider concourses and higher ceilings. Seems like a great deal for an extra couple of billion dollars.

Higher ceilings and wider concourses? If that is how Delta saw things, then so much for Richard Anderson's claim that he wants Delta to be an iconic brand. Or what is it that Donald Sutherland says in the most recent Delta commercial, something about "raising the bar"? On some things, I guess, but not the ceilings. LOL.

For the record, I still don't think it would have cost as much as you are saying, considering the upper limit on spending was set by LHR T5 at $6.5 B and that was a much more complex project.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 78):
What I don't understand is why you think that Delta overpaid for what they got. Does Delta really seem like a carrier that likes to throw money away? Building a facility like this in a place like JFK is far more expensive than you seem to think. You can't compare it to any other facility. If a better deal could have been had, Delta wouldn't have spent over a decade negotiating THIS deal. Trust me, they squeezed every penny out of it, just like they did with Terminal F in ATL.

This account would be more cogent if you had not left out some of the less flattering details. You forgot to mention that Delta returned to the negotiating table after emerging from bankruptcy. It is during that bankruptcy that Delta rejected the bond debt on the palace they built in Boston and relinquished control. Just out of bankruptcy and perhaps lacking credibility to do another deal like the one they did in Boston, Delta resumed negotiations with the PA.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 79):
T4 at LAX is even more dated, yet that hasn't stopped you from extolling its virtues...

The interior is not outdated. The renovation in the early 2000's was well executed. It raised the ceiling on the ticketing lobby and pier and it gave the interior a distinctive architectural appearance. Compared to the other domestic terminals at LAX, T4 is arguably the best. Having said that, its layout is outdated, but so is the layout of the entire CTA. No terminal in the LAX CTA can be anything other than a pier.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 79):
Funny, when DL first announced this terminal project you were telling us how they were going to ruin a terminal designed to look like a Japanese pavilion...

And, they did. One of the original architectural ambitions of the headhouse was to give passengers a clear view of the tarmac from the entry. The relocation and expansion of the TSA set up obscures that view.

As to its being outdated (then and now), that claim is not inconsistent with reporting as I did back then what the original intentions of the architects were. I never said they were successful at articulating that vision, particularly when it came to the concourses. (Japanese pavilions don't have concourses and if they did they would be more transparent. LOL.)

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 82):
Is there a lot of natural light on the concourses at T8 at JFK? I've never been, but photos don't seem to reveal a lot of windows. Certainly the headhouse at T4 is more attractive than T8 with its giant blank wall where the other half of the building is supposed to be.

I don't think that blank wall will be there for long. The other half of the headhouse and main concourse are the perfect solution to BA's future facility needs. Plus, there is the possibility AA could grow more at JFK. The current slot controls cannot last forever. They put limits on economic growth in the region. Let's revisit this topic in 30 years to discuss which terminal adapts better to future growth at JFK, T4 or T8.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-05-28 16:21:34 and read 9192 times.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 79):
Same goes for ATL. I cannot recall a single time when someone told me they chose one airport over another because of a shorter walk.

Then I'll fix that for you right now. I avoid tight connections at ATL unlike other airports. One reason is the long time it takes to get from one gate to another if I'm unlucky on the gate draw.

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't drive a significant amount of traffic away, but if it were my operation, it wouldn't be something I'd be proud about. And I certainly wouldn't want to build a new concourse extension with a design (just make it longer!) shied away from long ago. If the end it's about the money, and that's not a surprise to me considering the airline involved.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-05-28 16:46:44 and read 9099 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 70):
What I don't understand is the failure of people to comprehend that this adequate and functional upgrade cost $1.3B. The next phase will cost over $200M and the final phase will probably cost another $500M. All in all, the entire project will cost somewhere in the ballpark of $2B. Yet, so many people on a.net think that the terminal is not "grand enough".

I think it's grand enough and is a short term improvement. I think we're all agreeing mega-bucks were spent.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 70):
Shouldn't there be an acknowledgment that a facility needs to actually be cost effective? If it is too expensive, carriers can't justify building it.

And what of the cost effectiveness of spending mega-bucks and ending up with a facility that is less effective/functional than where your competitors are at already today?

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 82):
Certainly the headhouse at T4 is more attractive than T8 with its giant blank wall where the other half of the building is supposed to be.

RIght, but I think I know the answer to the question if AA was silly enough to ask DL if they wanted to swap facilities tomorrow. AA spent mega-bucks but got a mega-facility.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-28 17:51:17 and read 8988 times.

Let me begin by saying this...

T4 - long known as the International Arrivals Building IAB (which name I've always preferred) has always been the anchor building of the bunch and it always well be. It deserved better than this.

New York City (and NY'ers) never play to be the equal to DTW, ATL or MSP..,, NYC isn't a follower it is a trend setter. The new T4 is no showpiece by any stretch of the imagination ..and certainly not on the scale of World Class Airport Terminals.

Now, what would this thread read like if all came here and praised new T4 as some astonishing feat? Just because it replaces a horribly neglected decrepit structure (T3).. only means that..something more tolerable replaced a neglected facility.

Now were this a rival or remotely close Grand structure like Beijings T3C.. it would deserve praise of the highest order!

But on a global airport scale... it is an America letdown! And Airport Execs do visit each others facilities -THAT is a Fact!

I can see Airport Execs from ICN, SIN, LHR T5, PEK, etc looking at the press release of this thing .. and doing all they can to restraint laughter and smirking. Actually, I think they feel bad for us.. and they certainly will decline to tour it - one look at it will convince them that's one party to pass up on.

Yes, I'm taking this as a blow to American Ingenuity and 'Can Do' spirit!... it must be close to DOA. No American here would settle for a subpar tank, fighter of aircraft carrier!... then why on Earth should we accept our nation's premiere International Gateway stumbling onto the world stage looking like a 1950s hack job of a design - which it is!

I understand the Delta-Fans doing their absolute utmost to justify this pathetic presentation as something grand - which it certainly is not. They hype is grand. the party will be grand, the skydeck lounge is grand..but that's where grand ends and mediocre begins. When New York City starts accepting mediocrity (on anything) ...as they've done with this project, it's time to worry - ...hmmm what will they half-ass next?

Those like LDVav and myself just happen to take a bit more pride in America's showmanship in how we present ourselves to the world. And we are expressing enormous discontent here as much as many of you bestow praise upon this 'terminal'. You're entitled..and so are we.

Had this terminal been unveiled as something truly spectacular.. I seriously doubt that one of you would be complaining about the cost to build it.. you'd all be clamoring about your sudden need for a next visit - just to check it out!

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
And, you should not pretend that you know what the other alternatives cost or that you know what can be done with $2 billion dollars. The projected cost for the new TBIT/LAX (when one adds the remaining airside element) will be about $2 billion. Barajas T4 cost about $2+ billion. One can do much more with $2 Billion dollars than was done or will be done at T4.

  

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
There is just no hiding the complete lack of vision, imagination, and will behind the T4 expansion

  

Absolutely none.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
Why wasn't a midfield concourse feasible? There was room for it, but its construction would have impaired the use of the existing gates (temporally or permanently). That would not have been much of a problem if the PA owned the terminal, but it would have been a problem for JFKIAT for whom each gate is a source of revenue and profit. JFKIAT's stake in T4 most likely also meant that any wholesale replacement of T4 was conditioned on Delta or the PA buying them out

Room for it -   

JFKIAT's profit a top concern -   
..and probably the chief overriding concern.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 78):
What I don't understand is why you think that Delta overpaid for what they got.

Simple.... Because 2 Billion isn't chump change, even in NYC. And examples abound exist to show what could have been done with 2 Billion.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 78):
Does Delta really seem like a carrier that likes to throw money away? Building a facility like this in a place like JFK is far more expensive than you seem to think.

They certainly do... I can't think of a single carrier that four livery changes in the span of 10 years! That wasn't free.

But seriously, this isn't throwing money away, it's an investment! A long term investment and one that should have been about wooing and impressing customers, adding to the carriers customer base/loyalty!

Yes building in NYC is expensive, if you're gonna do the cheap and expense is an issue.. pump 500 mil into T3 and make whole again! Don't go spending 2 Billion with 'that' to show for it! I'm pretty damn proud at what TBIT will have to show for it's expenditure. Were I a New York (and aviation fan).. I'd be highly disappointed that we did not put our best foot forward with our anchor terminal.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 78):
You can't compare it to any other facility.

Why on earth not? 1.2 Billion was pumped into it.. why can it not be compared to similar Terminal builds?

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 78):
If a better deal could have been had, Delta wouldn't have spent over a decade negotiating THIS deal. Trust me, they squeezed every penny out of it, just like they did with Terminal F in ATL.

Perhaps they did... but the missing horse in all this is politics. In NYC, if 1 million is spent on anything..local politics has a hand in it.

1.2 Bil??? That's top level NY politics at it's best... only a dangerously naive person would try to down play that.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 78):
Quoting MCOAviationFan (Reply 77):
Jet, are you open to sharing the reasons why the parallel concourse option was not selected or is that confidential? It would be very interesting to gain a better understanding. Thanks!

I'm not sure what the final answer to that was.

That's big chunk of vital (and missing) info right there.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 79):
This arrogance is appalling. I didn't see it when I was growing up in Los Angeles, but see it more and more the longer I'm away. Just because a city is not a "world capital" or "on par" with Los Angeles, NYC, or London doesn't mean that it deserves less than what those cities have. I see plenty of examples of these sort of attitude from people in large cities on either coast, and it goes a long way to explaining why some people in "flyover" country think that those on the coast are a bunch of out-of-touch elitists.

Sorry dude, but America is a capitalist society...and it doesn't stop or slow down for anyone. It is about being as good as you can until a competitor comes and takes your lunch - if you let them. One-ups-manship is the name of the game. And T4 only one upped T3... a couple of double-wide trailers could do that.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 86):
And I certainly wouldn't want to build a new concourse extension with a design (just make it longer!) shied away from long ago. If the end it's about the money, and that's not a surprise to me considering the airline involved.

100 Agreed! A poor expenditure of 1.2 Billion.

BN747

[Edited 2013-05-28 18:43:04]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-05-28 18:10:30 and read 8919 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
I understand the Delta-Fans doing their absolute utmost to justify this pathetic presentation as something grand - which it certainly is not. They hype is grand. the party will be grand, the skydeck lounge is grand..but that's where grand ends and mediocre begins. When New York City starts accepting mediocrity (on anything) ...as they've done with this project, it's time to worry - ...hmmm what will they half-ass next?

Those like LDVav and myself just happen to take a bit more pride in America's showmanship in how we present ourselves to the world. And we are expressing enormous discontent here as much as many of you bestow praise upon this 'terminal'. You're entitled..and so are we.

Good lord. It is one of SEVEN individual terminals at JFK. It barely houses 20 total gates! If you want a palace, then rip then entire JFK mid-field complex down and re-build the whole damn airport! Expect it to cost $20B, but then what is money?

To expect any one airline, or even the PANYNJ, to fund a terminal to compete with HKG, SIN or PEK when it only has a fraction of the capacity is ridiculous.

The PANYNJ decided to build their monument in Lower Manhattan. Its time to move on.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-05-28 18:26:16 and read 8863 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
Sorry dude, but America is a capitalist society...and it doesn't stop or slow down for anyone. It is
about being as good as you can until a competitor comes and takes your lunch - if you let them.

This is where the whole argument falls apart. What does it matter that IND or DTW has a nicer terminal than JFK Terminal 4? It's not like Indianapolis or Detroit is suddenly going to become the economic and cultural capital of the free world just because the airport is nicer.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: blue100
Posted 2013-05-28 20:18:10 and read 8646 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 85):
For the record, I still don't think it would have cost as much as you are saying, considering the upper limit on spending was set by LHR T5 at $6.5 B and that was a much more complex project.

I am not familiar with the construction progress for LHR T5. However, I have flown through facility on numerous occasions. While the facility itself is significantly larger, I'm not so sure that the terminal had as many obstructions to deal with when constructing the mid-field concourse. To me, this is the greatest constraint that JFK has when you look at the terminal set up. If you were to set up a midfield concourse out beyond T4, how would planes still be able to reach the existing gates? If they had to cut-off gates in order to build this facility, where would the existing flights go to instead? I flew out of T4 last summer and nearly every single remote stand and every gate was in use at that time. How do you construct a brand new terminal in the vicinity of T3/T4 without disrupting an already tight operation?

These are just some of the logistical issues. As many others have mentioned, you have NYC costs that make seemingly 'simple' projects more expensive than your typical city for the many reasons others have already listed. I would love to have a facility such as LHR T5 at JFK, but I'm also realistic and know that progress of that magnitude takes time when you are dealing with the space constraints that JFK has.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
Simple.... Because 2 Billion isn't chump change, even in NYC. And examples abound exist to show what could have been done with 2 Billion.

I don't think you can compare apples to apples on most of those projects. As I mentioned above, I believe the close proximity of T1, T2, T3 and T4 to one another makes the situation much more difficult to deal with. You have to take into account the timing of the projects (i.e are you comparing projects that are from the same time period, location (i.e are the locations cost base similar and geographical / architectural constraints.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
Yes building in NYC is expensive, if you're gonna do the cheap and expense is an issue.. pump 500 mil into T3 and make whole again! Don't go spending 2 Billion with 'that' to show for it! I'm pretty damn proud at what TBIT will have to show for it's expenditure.

I am not very familiar with LAX, as I haven't flown into there for quite some time. However, just taking a look at google maps, it seems to me that LAX has plenty more space to work with behind TBIT to construct their new facility. If JFK had that luxury, I'm sure the option would have been more compelling. But taking a look at google maps for T1-T4 and keep in mind that the vast majority of the remote stands are used during the day and during the evening rush hour. Do you really think that they could have built a 30+ gate facility with a new head house and mid-field concourse, while avoiding any disruptions to current operations and all for a reasonable cost that can be recouped over time?

My personal opinion is that Delta and the PANYNJ both knew that T3 had to go and that they had to make the most of the current situation. Progress takes time. Given that JFK used to have 9 terminals just over a decade ago, I think it is progress that you only have T1, T2, T4, T5 and T8. I'm sure there will be more consolidation in the coming decades as well...

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: alitalia744
Posted 2013-05-28 20:25:00 and read 8644 times.

What's the big deal here?

Have we gotten so childish that we can't do anything without pulling out and comparing sizes?

Are we that immature that we can't accept Delta built a terminal that WORKS for DELTA. Just like CO built Terminal C at EWR which WORKS for UAL.

Mods - ban me if you feel that's appropriate, but come on, do your jobs too.

[Edited 2013-05-28 20:25:54]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-28 20:25:15 and read 8651 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):

T4 - long known as the International Arrivals Building IAB (which name I've always preferred) has always been the anchor building of the bunch and it always well be. It deserved better than this.

Do you remember the IAB????? What the heck are you pining for? The 50 year old arch? The old alarm clock style arrivals board? The PA systems that didnt work? No windows? 20 different security checkpoints?? Broken escalators? A different entrance and check in area for each airline like a suburban strip mall? Same level departures and arrivals?

That was the PANYNJ at its best! They ran the terminal. The best thing that could have happened to JFK was the privatization of T4. It is a beautiful new modern terminal.

IF ANYONE THINKS THE PA RUNNING A TERMINAL IS BETTER THAN JFKIAT T4, LOOK NO FURTHER THAN THE OTHER PA RUN TERMINALS AT Macedonian Airlines (Greece)">IN NYC: THE CTB AT LGA AND TERMINALS A AND B AT EWR.

The PA is a bloated, broke, government agency. THEY RAN KENNEDY INTO THE GROUND AT Macedonian Airlines (Greece)">IN THE 80S AND 90S! JFK is much better served by modern terminals under the control of private enterprises.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-28 21:35:35 and read 8533 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):

They certainly do... I can't think of a single carrier that four livery changes in the span of 10 years! That wasn't free.

It's also not true.......the "Widget" scheme was from about the mid 60s.......then you had the "Ron Allen" livery in '97, then "Wavy Gravy" in 2000 and the current livery in 2007. That makes it THREE changes in 10 years. I've said this before and no one ever takes me up on it, but I'm guessing that from about '70 until now, UA has had at least that many changes in livery, if not more, than DL.....I'm thinking there's been at least 5-6, including the current one.


Now, back to the topic at hand, which is T4 at JFK, NOT the fact that DL has had so many livery changes (which they really haven't), which the usual suspects on here seem bound to inject into every discussion about DL, even when it isn't relevant to the discussion at hand.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-28 22:47:12 and read 8437 times.

Quoting blue100 (Reply 91):
As many others have mentioned, you have NYC costs that make seemingly 'simple' projects more expensive than your typical city for the many reasons others have already listed. I would love to have a facility such as LHR T5 at JFK, but I'm also realistic and know that progress of that magnitude takes time when you are dealing with the space constraints that JFK has.

There were political, environmental, and logistical constraints at LHR too. NYC is not the only city in the world where the cost of doing business is high.

Quoting blue100 (Reply 91):
I am not very familiar with LAX, as I haven't flown into there for quite some time. However, just taking a look at google maps, it seems to me that LAX has plenty more space to work with behind TBIT to construct their new facility.

It only looks that way because LAX has demolished or is demolishing much of what was there. In the process, it has and will incur additional costs to build TBIT and the midfield satellite concourse. Many of the buildings/lots it has condemned were under lease to AA. AA has not been above accepting bribes to allow LAWA to continue building. The T4 connector at a cost to LAWA of $110 million was such a bribe. (NYC is not the only city in the world where the costs of doing business are inflated by having to grease the wheels.)

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 89):
To expect any one airline, or even the PANYNJ, to fund a terminal to compete with HKG, SIN or PEK when it only has a fraction of the capacity is ridiculous.

The PANYNJ decided to build their monument in Lower Manhattan. Its time to move on.

You don't have to build something that big to get great architecture. See the new terminal at RDU. That is good design, also by Fentress. In fact, there is one thing I like about RDU that I wish Fentress had done at TBIT.

Now, don't get me started on the bad design of that monolith in Lower Manhattan. : )

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-05-29 04:49:17 and read 8253 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 85):
For the record, I still don't think it would have cost as much as you are saying, considering the upper limit on spending was set by LHR T5 at $6.5 B and that was a much more complex project.

And that cost and the cost of doing business at LHR is going to to severe damage to BA over the next 30 years.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
But seriously, this isn't throwing money away, it's an investment! A long term investment and one that should have been about wooing and impressing customers, adding to the carriers customer base/loyalty!

Fancy terminals aren't going to woo a lot of customers. AA has a far fancier terminal, but they aren't wooing lots of new customers.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
Sorry dude, but America is a capitalist society

Which is exactly why those monolithic terminals at ICN, PEK, etc aren't getting built. Those terminals make no capitalistic sense. They're fancy just for the sake of ego and not profit making.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-05-29 05:36:33 and read 8180 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
New York City (and NY'ers) never play to be the equal to DTW, ATL or MSP..,, NYC isn't a follower it is a trend setter.

Trend setter? You did see what B6 just built at JFK T5, didn't you? That's the trend that DL is following at NYC, a quite bland one.

DL went from miserable to somewhat above acceptable, and for many, that's what they want/expect/accept.

The main issue is the huge expense by the time Phase III is wrapped up, but DL seems to have done a good job of shifting the initial costs onto others in exchange for long term rent payments.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-29 05:55:32 and read 8147 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 97):

Trend setter? You did see what B6 just built at JFK T5, didn't you? That's the trend that DL is following at NYC, a quite bland one.

It is one of the highest rated terminals in the world. Not bland at all. And Delta has copied it at LGA and now at JFK...they are smart to do that.

What customers are saying by ranking T5 JFK so high is that these things matter:

Space
Diverse mall-like shops
Diverse food options
Cheerful colors
Ease of movement without excessive counters, walls, barriers
Powerports
FREE INTERNET AT THE CLICK OF A BUTTON
IPad ordering

They want a terminal that looks and feels like an Apple Store

If they wanted soaring ticketing halls that makes them feel like they are in a mountain valley, they would rank T8 JFK as one of the highest in the world.


Flying is a difficult, miseravble experience in 2013. People want an airport/airline experience that makes them think they are doing anything but flying in the post 9/11 world. B6 does it great...DL is copying them. Even AA is now advertising the shops and restaurants of "T8"

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-05-29 06:14:46 and read 8125 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 96):
Which is exactly why those monolithic terminals at ICN, PEK, etc aren't getting built. Those terminals make no capitalistic sense. They're fancy just for the sake of ego and not profit making.

This.

The other thing I find fascinating is that all Delta is doing is finishing a facility that is already built. Everyone has always known that T4 would grow. What they have done is keep the original architectural intent while making some significant internal improvements. If the new concourse extension had been architecturally different than the original, people would be complaining about that.

Frankly, the architectural decision was made nearly 20 years ago when T4 was first conceived. At that time, it actually was state-of-the-art. Delta was simply not going to build an entirely new terminal. The cost of that was unjustifiable. If people really want to complain about lack of a showplace terminal at JFK, they ought to take a hard look at the half-built T8 or the hideous T5.

[Edited 2013-05-29 06:23:39]

[Edited 2013-05-29 06:24:20]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-29 07:20:21 and read 7988 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 99):
Frankly, the architectural decision was made nearly 20 years ago when T4 was first conceived. At that time, it actually was state-of-the-art. Delta was simply not going to build an entirely new terminal. The cost of that was unjustifiable. If people really want to complain about lack of a showplace terminal at JFK, they ought to take a hard look at the half-built T8 or the hideous T5.

See, you undermine your argument with barbs like that.

There is not a thing wrong with T5.

T8 wasn't finished for good reason. 9/11.

I believe the DL plan was also announced pre 9/11, and cancelled after 9/11. Kind of like the other half of T8.

Delta did a good job with T4. Don't cheapen your argument by getting into the gutter and exchanging barbs with people who don't like Deltas day in the sun.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: msp747
Posted 2013-05-29 07:33:09 and read 7980 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 74):
The projected cost for the new TBIT/LAX (when one adds the remaining airside element) will be about $2 billion. Barajas T4 cost about $2+ billion. One can do much more with $2 Billion dollars than was done or will be done at T4.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 76):
Not in NYC where 2 Billion isn't nearly as much as you think it is. Between the high cost of anything in NYC, the unions, the JFKIAT and the corrupt PANYNJ, nothing gets done cheaply

I think MetLife Stadium proves how expensive it is to build in NYC. It's the second most expensive stadium in NFL history, yet it doesn't have a roof or a retractable roof. There is nothing spectacular about the building, yet it cost more than a billion dollars to build. It is plain and boring, yet expensive. There are plenty of other stadiums that have more features and comforts while costing less.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
New York City (and NY'ers) never play to be the equal to DTW, ATL or MSP..,, NYC isn't a follower it is a trend setter.

What trend are you setting exactly? All three of your airports are dumps. EWR is functional, but not beautiful. I don't go out of my way to fly there, although I find it the easiest to deal with when compared to LGA and JFK. And honestly, I laugh when you talk about people avoiding T4 because of the walk when a passenger can end up having a long walk at Terminal C. As for LGA, well it is a mess, especially if you are trying to connect. I've had to go through security again every time I have connected there. JFK has improved dramatically over the years, but the AA terminal that people claim is so great is still a work in progress. How about they finish the project before anyone proclaims it as this amazing terminal.

There are plenty of airports with long walks. When I lived in Houston, I grew accustomed to the hike from the Terminal C check-in to my Terminal E flight. I even had to run a few times to barely make my flight. MSP can be stressful if you don't know what you're getting yourself into. DEN, ATL, DTW, and IAD are all good examples of places where you may find yourself walking more than expected. It's part of traveling

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-05-29 07:48:30 and read 7983 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 100):
See, you undermine your argument with barbs like that.

There is not a thing wrong with T5.

T8 wasn't finished for good reason. 9/11.

I believe the DL plan was also announced pre 9/11, and cancelled after 9/11. Kind of like the other half of T8.

Delta did a good job with T4. Don't cheapen your argument by getting into the gutter and exchanging barbs with people who don't like Deltas day in the sun.

My point wasn't to denigrate T5 and T8. My point was that the people railing against T4 aren't holding those facilities to the same standard. In fact, they are claiming that T5 and T8 are superior examples of airport architecture. Its OK that the T5 concourse section looks like temporary construction, apparently. Its OK that the T8 headhouse is a ghastly chop job. But Delta should be ashamed for building out T4 to its original architectural standard.

Its just silly.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: luckyone
Posted 2013-05-29 08:11:30 and read 7936 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 102):
But Delta should be ashamed for building out T4 to its original architectural standard.

Its just silly.

What is silly is thinking that when the bottom line means the difference between whether or not you stay in business people are worrying about architecture beyond functionality. There are two very good examples at JFK of what happens when people start getting ambitious about architecture and trying to combine them with the realistic needs of a face-paced city and volatile industry.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-29 08:12:09 and read 7975 times.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 101):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
New York City (and NY'ers) never play to be the equal to DTW, ATL or MSP..,, NYC isn't a follower it is a trend setter.

What trend are you setting exactly? All three of your airports are dumps.

Stand in line and still haven't figured out how to get pass the V.I.P. entrance yet?

..anyway, I don't have 3 airports... I live in SoCal.

But oh, dream of what could have been...




Yes, it would rely upon an underground tram network - most modern airports do.
..and yes it would be about 2-3 Billion more, but we aren't talking Tucson Arizona here. Wall Street could figure out how to hogswaggle that cash out of the gov't in a heartbeat..or get Trimp to pitch in...

All PANYNJ had to do was get creative with Google Earth...

BN747

[Edited 2013-05-29 08:15:59]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: delta2ual
Posted 2013-05-29 08:44:53 and read 7864 times.

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 92):
What's the big deal here?

Have we gotten so childish that we can't do anything without pulling out and comparing sizes?

LOL. You've noticed that too? Everything on this site is about size and comparison. I only comment on DL because I spent the majority of my life there but don't feel the need to go on threads about AA and criticize everything they do. To each their own.

I can say one thing for sure: In the 20+ years as a flight attendant, res agent, ticket/gate agent, and previous part-time travel agent, NOBODY has EVER told me they avoid an airport because of walking distance. I've heard of avoiding airports at certain times of year (snow/ice in winter, thunderstorms in summer), but that's about it.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-29 09:47:46 and read 7778 times.

Who is filling up that huge regional concourse on the site of the current T2

Not to mention you just created 5 or 6 single taxiway alley entranceways as opposed to the 3 dual lane taxiways T4 when complete will have.

Your dream is a traffic nightmare

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-05-29 10:01:10 and read 7734 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
Yes, it would rely upon an underground tram network - most modern airports do.
..and yes it would be about 2-3 Billion more, but we aren't talking Tucson Arizona here. Wall Street could figure out how to hogswaggle that cash out of the gov't in a heartbeat..or get Trimp to pitch in...

That thing is an operational nightmare that no one would ever build. And even if they did, no one needs that many gates! If no one needs them, who on Earth is going to pay for them??

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-05-29 10:34:57 and read 7680 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 88):
Those like LDVav and myself just happen to take a bit more pride in America's showmanship in how we present ourselves to the world.

Make sure to have the money in the bank when you write the check.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 99):
If people really want to complain about lack of a showplace terminal at JFK, they ought to take a hard look at the half-built T8 or the hideous T5.

 checkmark 

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 102):
My point wasn't to denigrate T5 and T8.

Mine is! T-5 looks like a Home Depot and they should put up a big mirror on the blank wall at T-8 so it'll at least LOOK finished!

Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
Trimp

Who??

[Edited 2013-05-29 10:48:14]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: FlyASAGuy2005
Posted 2013-05-29 10:38:09 and read 7678 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 90):
This is where the whole argument falls apart. What does it matter that IND or DTW has a nicer terminal than JFK Terminal 4? It's not like Indianapolis or Detroit is suddenly going to become the economic and cultural capital of the free world just because the airport is nicer.

   Why I respect you. Right is right and wrong is wrong.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 100):
I believe the DL plan was also announced pre 9/11, and cancelled after 9/11. Kind of like the other half of T8.

No. The extension of T4 was shelved by Delta in 2000. At that point, I think DL was not sure what direction they were taking in NYC. Up until 2006, JFK was really a ghost town so to speak compared to what the operation is today. Not to forget the love affair that had grown for BOS...

Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
Yes, it would rely upon an underground tram network - most modern airports do.
..and yes it would be about 2-3 Billion more, but we aren't talking Tucson Arizona here. Wall Street could figure out how to hogswaggle that cash out of the gov't in a heartbeat..or get Trimp to pitch in...

All PANYNJ had to do was get creative with Google Earth...

BN747

LOL me thinks more walking will be involved with such a trap of a terminal.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-29 10:56:35 and read 7583 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 102):
My point wasn't to denigrate T5 and T8. My point was that the people railing against T4 aren't holding those facilities to the same standard. In fact, they are claiming that T5 and T8 are superior examples of airport architecture. Its OK that the T5 concourse section looks like temporary construction, apparently. Its OK that the T8 headhouse is a ghastly chop job. But Delta should be ashamed for building out T4 to its original architectural standard.

And, what architectural standard was that? At what time, were piers as long as T4 (after the Phase II build out) the standard? They certainly were not the standard when T4 was originally designed. How long it takes to walk from gate to gate has always been a consideration in pier design.

As to the style of the building, it was set by the head house, but it was not applied to the concourses. That was accepted back then as a way to cut costs. In that sense, it wasn't really the standard. Today, it would be considered bad design not to have a pier with at least some two-storey sections, for example a two-storey main passageway with one-storey hold rooms to the side.

As to T8, its original design was much more noteworthy. As you may know, once AA got into financial trouble, they brought in a second design team to shave costs from the project. Among other things, skylights and a second access tunnel between baggage claim and the midfield concourse were cut. What AA did not cut were the proportions of the building. The width and height of the concourses were built to the current standard. Should AA choose to go back and redress the interior, the building is flexible enough to expand concessions, add gates with reasonable walks from center to end, and to increase the light in the space with skylights and new glazing. T8 can be reconfigured and expanded to bring it closer to its original architectural standard.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: alfa164
Posted 2013-05-29 11:06:27 and read 7551 times.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 71):
Pffffffffffff....(I hear ego's being deflated).
Most of these posters sit on the couch thinking they have important opinions not realizing it doesn't really matter.
Hysterical.

Bottom line: This terminal is way better (yes, in all aspects) than having to stare at hoses and other contraptions hanging from a ceiling. That was simply pathetic.

So... is there something that makes your opinion more important than "these posters"???

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 76):
Why is it such a loss? Do people pick where they fly based on how much of an architectural marvel the airport is? I've never met anyone who picked their flights based on airport architecture or the length of the concourse.

Meet me. I actively avoid BKK because the terminal - while a strong architectural statement - is a passenger's nightmare. I fly ICN whenever I can, HKG, KUL, or SIN otherwise.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: TeamInTheSky
Posted 2013-05-29 15:33:35 and read 7181 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):
Yes, it would rely upon an underground tram network - most modern airports do.
..and yes it would be about 2-3 Billion more, but we aren't talking Tucson Arizona here. Wall Street could figure out how to hogswaggle that cash out of the gov't in a heartbeat..or get Trimp to pitch in...

BN, that is a very interesting picture you posted. However, as an accountant, I can tell you have not done many ROI studies in your time on this planet. Nor have you dealt with "Wall Street" types that needle you to death for 40k on a 5 billion dollar ROI study. While your ideas are understandable, and of course there is a desire for America to have the best of everything, sometimes having a profitable airline like DL is much more valuable than having the biggest and best terminal in the world.

Regards,

Team

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-05-29 16:04:26 and read 7164 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):

I see the Pan Am saucer was recycled to become the 'A380 pavilion'   

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-29 18:12:23 and read 6996 times.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 112):


oh au contraire, I'm very well aware of what the Wall Street banksters have been pulling off and my did at them is the same as my quip towards Mr Trimp er Trump - insincere.

I'm very familiar with ROI as all filmed entertainment content is launched by private funding - only the sucker investors fall foe the 'guess who the lead is' line...and end up losing their shirt.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the final look of the dual concourse appearance LAX's TBIT will have upon the total completion. It resembles my rendering almost to the letter - except my T4 offering is a bit grandiose .. well because it is New York.

Feel free to tell LAWA they are spending their 1.2 Bilion foolishly with no hopes of ever seeing an ROI..personally, I think they're too far gone now to heed your warning.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 113):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):

I see the Pan Am saucer was recycled to become the 'A380 pavilion'

HA!!! You caught that...! I was hoping I could get away with it.

But the A380 Pavilion Concurse has it's carrier VIP lounges just beneath the famed former (and expanded) rooftop with the most killer views! Photoshop, in a minute or two you can make anything look better! ....gotta love it!

BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: EricR
Posted 2013-05-29 19:41:29 and read 6890 times.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 104):

But oh, dream of what could have been...Yes, it would rely upon an underground tram network - most modern airports do.
..and yes it would be about 2-3 Billion more, but we aren't talking Tucson Arizona here. Wall Street could figure out how to hogswaggle that cash out of the gov't in a heartbeat..or get Trimp to pitch in...

I'm sorry, but I have to ask you this question......Did you by chance notice the T4B concourse that you drew in your airport diagram? It's the same length or longer than DL's current T4B concourse.......you know, the one you said was too long of a walk for passengers. Can you help us understand how your proposed diagram reduces the distance?

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: NYCAdvantage
Posted 2013-05-29 20:21:27 and read 6859 times.

What is the time frame to complete the third face of T4?
since Delta's lease on T2 ends o 2020, I imagine by 2017-18 should be done.

I feel Delta will have a great operational terminal when they move the whole operation there in conjunction with VS and
Skyteam partners.
about the cost of T4 I feel Delta got a real good deal, around 2 Billion dollars plus plenty of horrific embarrassing pain for a great operational terminal like T4 but most importantly they get to keep all their operational slots without losing their rhythm and strength.

when you compare that to AA T8 which is a great and beautiful terminal, even thou the amount of money was not as much
$1.2 billion plus what ever they may have to still to invest to finish it up, it may end up around 2 billion or maybe more,
but then add all the slots they lost, loosing been NYC #1 airline after building a great brand in NYC after all that hard work.

I remember, there was AA and then who cared about that very far shadow out on T3, Delta wanted to move to Boston, B6 was just beginning, Continental was another bleep in AA radar out from the twilight zone at NJ, TWA got acquired. not even United could not compete with AA at JFK, then AA began construction on T9, maybe it was bad luck, wrong timing or lack of vision, but here we are,

IMHO when you add all that to the 1.2 billion AA had paid so far for T8, T4 becomes priceless.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-05-29 20:30:43 and read 6825 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 98):
It is one of the highest rated terminals in the world. Not bland at all.

It is bland. Your comment reminds me of the old expression: "Eat (poo): A billion flies can't be wrong!".

However it is also as I said what people expect/accept/etc. DL didn't overshoot the mark (at least in the short term) nor did they overshoot the mark.

It just leaves DL at the point of seeing $1.2B spent to just get to that point, with many more years and one very tricky negotiation (Phase III) to get to where they want to get to, just to reach parity with their NYC competition (IMHO). Luckily that's largely other people's money, but then again it will all need to be paid back, short of another bankruptcy...

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: yra
Posted 2013-05-29 20:51:56 and read 6806 times.

I am amazed by the comments here. The new T4 is a 1000% improvement over the old setup, and the eventual goal of consolidating all operations to one terminal will be another huge improvement for DL. Why can't we all just be happy for them? As for the walking/busses/non-inspiring design comments, name me a terminal/concourse in the U.S. where one of those less-than-desirable variables does not already exist? Our country simply does not have the political/social willpower and money to compete with the showpiece terminals in Asia and the Middle East. I started a thread a few weeks ago about the new terminal to be built in SLC, and while my wish list is long and fanciful, at the end of the day I realize that $2B isn't nearly enough to build anything remotely close to what we see in other parts of the world. T4 will work much better for what DL wants and needs in NYC, and considering all of the difficult options on the table they are surely to be applauded for taking a practical and cost effective approach. All of that said, there is a part of me that yes, would love the opportunity to bulldoze all of JFK and replace it win something much more cohesive and eye catching. That said, in our country's political climate, projects like that will probably never ever happen. There just isn't the money or willpower anymore.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-05-29 21:05:48 and read 6765 times.

Quoting yra (Reply 118):
I am amazed by the comments here. The new T4 is a 1000% improvement over the old setup

Right, but 100% of nothing is noting, 100% improvement of an unacceptable solution is what exactly?

Quoting yra (Reply 118):
nd the eventual goal of consolidating all operations to one terminal will be another huge improvement for DL

Right, but we're seeing $1.2B spent to get to the T2/bus/T4 setup, another $500m or so to add RJs to the end of T4A, no definitive cost or schedule to get everything into T4. To me it seems very optimistic to check the box that you seem to already be checking.

Quoting yra (Reply 118):
Why can't we all just be happy for them?

If they had no competition, I suppose we all could be. However, in the real world...

Same conversation came up today at work for me. We were discussing a plan of action that worked well for our company and our partners, and everyone seemed oh so satisfied. Then I pointed out that there's no way our solution would be workable if our competition took an alternative yet quite feasible course, and everyone acted if I had peed into the punch bowl. Oh well...

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-29 21:15:33 and read 6742 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 119):

Right, but we're seeing $1.2B spent to get to the T2/bus/T4 setup,

That may be, but it was my understanding that this is just a temporary setup until completion.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 119):
100% improvement of an unacceptable solution is what exactly?

Quoting yra (Reply 118):

And who's to say that Phase I is an "unacceptable solution"? Who decides that....YOU? The pax? Employees? Me? All of us or none of us? Most people will vote with their feet and if it's an improvement over the old setup, it just may be acceptable to them.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-05-29 21:43:18 and read 6708 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 120):
And who's to say that Phase I is an "unacceptable solution"?

I was saying that pre-P1 was the unacceptable solution.

Apologies if this was unclear...

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-29 21:58:09 and read 6687 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 121):

I was saying that pre-P1 was the unacceptable solution.

Well, I think we ALL knew that.....there have been many on this thread that seem to think that all three phases are "unacceptable solutions".



Anyway, apology accepted.....the confusion was probably all mine.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-30 00:20:32 and read 6620 times.

Quoting EricR (Reply 115):
I'm sorry, but I have to ask you this question......Did you by chance notice the T4B concourse that you drew in your airport diagram? It's the same length or longer than DL's current T4B concourse.......you know, the one you said was too long of a walk for passengers. Can you help us understand how your proposed diagram reduces the distance?

Why any person (other than a busy photog/spotter) would walk a lengthy terminal when a intra-terminal train is available (in my mockup as oppossed to none in the real T4)...I do not know.

BN747

[Edited 2013-05-30 00:24:36]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: alfa164
Posted 2013-05-30 00:55:48 and read 6599 times.

Quoting yra (Reply 118):
Our country simply does not have the political/social willpower and money to compete with the showpiece terminals in Asia and the Middle East.


Exactly. Or, perhaps more correctly, the imagination and determination to build a first-class product.

And that attitude, sadly, is why airlines from other countries have a much better reputation - deserved or not - than our domestic carriers. Delta claimed it wanted to aspire to that standard. Can we all admit that it failed?

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-05-30 01:13:52 and read 6602 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 117):
DL didn't overshoot the mark (at least in the short term) nor did they overshoot the mark.

Not only that, they did not overshoot the mark!   

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-05-30 05:17:03 and read 6520 times.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 125):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 117):
DL didn't overshoot the mark (at least in the short term) nor did they overshoot the mark.

Not only that, they did not overshoot the mark!

LOL!  
Quoting alfa164 (Reply 124):
And that attitude, sadly, is why airlines from other countries have a much better reputation - deserved or not - than our domestic carriers. Delta claimed it wanted to aspire to that standard. Can we all admit that it failed?

Sounds harsh to me. Clearly many US carriers would say they have the goal of such a standard, but clearly aren't spending up to that level on facilities and staffing, and that really is no surprise to me.

Clearly a lot of international airports are benefiting from the desires their local/national governments (and in turn the people they represent) have to build some very inspiring facilities, and yes, most US localities are not in that situation.

Let's take something like HKG. Clearly it took tremendous funds to lop off the tops of a few mountains to build out a few man made islands, build an all-new modern airport, build a series of highways and bridges as well as high speed rail. Such a huge project had to have a lot of support locally. I doubt you could muster that level of support anywhere in the US. There's too many competing needs/wants in most metro areas. It seems the best we can muster is KDEN where you have a great facility that would not have happened if there wasn't a lot of prairie land available south of town and a lot of support because being an airline hub was/is a major part of the local economy and even its identity. I'm sure NYC is proud of its airline heritage too, but when it's time to ask for public funding there's a lot more things that compete for such funds.

Quoting mayor (Reply 122):
Well, I think we ALL knew that.....there have been many on this thread that seem to think that all three phases are "unacceptable solutions".

Yes, there are a lot of shifting goal posts in this discussion. Clearly measuring success from pre-P1 makes it easier to call it success. Comparing to competing US facilities makes it more debatable in my mind, especially given the time and money involved and the fact that we all can't be sure what P3 will be for a while. Heck we can't be all that confident it will exist till we see some contracts signed. Comparing to competing international facilities where there is the local support for building 'statement projects' or to some US facilities built on greenfield sites to my mind makes it an unfair comparison. As above, I think DL has done well largely spending other people's money to get a much improved facility, but in my minds they still have several steps to go to get into a position that in my mind falls a bit short of the competition.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-30 05:32:17 and read 6525 times.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 109):
No. The extension of T4 was shelved by Delta in 2000. At that point, I think DL was not sure what direction they were taking in NYC. Up until 2006, JFK was really a ghost town so to speak compared to what the operation is today. Not to forget the love affair that had grown for BOS...

I dont think so. My relative was contracted to scope and install the phone/IT lines for the T4 extension. The account was closed out in November/December 2001. That terminal was a go until 9/11 happened.

Quoting NYCAdvantage (Reply 116):
when you compare that to AA T8 which is a great and beautiful terminal, even thou the amount of money was not as much
$1.2 billion plus what ever they may have to still to invest to finish it up, it may end up around 2 billion or maybe more,
but then add all the slots they lost, loosing been NYC #1 airline after building a great brand in NYC after all that hard work

They gave up slots because they decided not to compete with B6 and DL while they were on a steady march towards BK. T8/9 always had the required number of gates in operation during construction. T8/9 was quite a mess before construction and was a nightmare during construction...particularly the old T8

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: PIEAvantiP180
Posted 2013-05-30 06:20:46 and read 6470 times.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 124):
Delta claimed it wanted to aspire to that standard. Can we all admit that it failed?

One terminal in a number of DL hubs won't determine if they failed to achieve an iconic brand recognition they aspire to. Everything is in the eye of the beholder, in your view T4 is a massive failure and i'm looking at it for what it is. Is it the best solution that PA and DL could have come up with? Anybody that knows the actual answer is not talking and anything that I or you say is just opinion. So we have to take the face value. Is it functional? DL thinks it will work for them just fine, and that it was the best solution for the money with available physical and time constraints that DL and PA had to work with while still running normal operations out of T2/T3 during construction.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: boswashsprstar
Posted 2013-05-30 07:51:03 and read 6400 times.

I wonder if DL will want/need another club in T4 once the Phase III extension is complete and T2 is torn down. Presumably all non-DL carriers will be consolidated in T4A and DL will mostly be in T4B with a bit of spill into T4A...the club in the middle of the T4B pier will be quite inconvenient for O&D traffic departing from a T4A gate, for example, and may not be large enough for all of the combined traffic from the terminal.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-30 08:26:26 and read 6331 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 126):
As above, I think DL has done well largely spending other people's money to get a much improved facility, but in my minds they still have several steps to go to get into a position that in my mind falls a bit short of the competition.

It hasn't even been open for a week and we're already condemning DL for what they have. I would think that we'd have to wait awhile longer to make a good judgement AND, really, it's only partially completed, right? Shouldn't any criticism come in after all phases are done?


Like I said before, all the wasted money that DL has poured into T3 since '91, might have gone towards this project and I'm sure management wishes they had that money back.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: questions
Posted 2013-05-30 18:12:00 and read 6069 times.

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 92):
pulling out and comparing sizes

I'd probably win.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 109):
The extension of T4 was shelved by Delta in 2000.
Quoting mayor (Reply 130):
Shouldn't any criticism come in after all phases are done?

Do we know estimated start/completion dates of phases 2 and 3?

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-30 22:07:55 and read 5890 times.

This was said about an east coast terminal this week: "The terminal is (still) a state-of-the-art facility (with) spacious gates and modern behind-the-scenes equipment and a very friendly, open and spacious environment that makes you feel good as you use it and that enables us to operate efficiently."

Guess the terminal that deserves this description. It is not T4 JFK.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: questions
Posted 2013-05-30 23:13:19 and read 5833 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 132):
Why, so you can avoid the rush and start criticizing DL's moves, now?  

My question was VERY relevant to the thread topic, "Delta Announces Phase III of JFK T4.

There is no need for your rude, immature comment.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-31 07:54:15 and read 5667 times.

My whole point is that isn't it a little premature to be criticizing DL's terminal, considering the operation is only a week in?

[Edited 2013-05-31 08:02:00]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: BN747
Posted 2013-05-31 10:20:16 and read 5528 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 134):
My whole point is that isn't it a little premature to be criticizing DL's terminal, considering the operation is only a week in?

Why? Is it the same as critiquing a newly unveiled car made by a manufacturer about to put it in showrooms or go on sale?

Or critiquing a new livery disclosed in an artists' rendering.

..it's a terminal, a building...I see no reason why it should be exempt.

BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-05-31 10:25:08 and read 5528 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 110):
Should AA choose to go back and redress the interior, the building is flexible enough to expand concessions, add gates with reasonable walks from center to end, and to increase the light in the space with skylights and new glazing. T8 can be reconfigured and expanded to bring it closer to its original architectural standard.

I think that's consistent with what I've been saying - DL's working hard to try to catch up to where the competitors are now today, and the competitors can choose to spend incremental amounts to keep themselves out in front or just sit and wait to see what happens with P3.

Quoting mayor (Reply 130):
It hasn't even been open for a week and we're already condemning DL for what they have.

Condemning? Not me. Criticizing, sure.

Quoting mayor (Reply 130):
Shouldn't any criticism come in after all phases are done?

No, this is a discussion forum, and I don't why we can't/shouldn't - maybe you should explain further. It's been clear for a while what P1 was going to be, and now that it's here it's even more clear. We know P2 is coming and P3 is, well...

Quoting Atlflyer (Thread starter):
Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4

Announced? Hmmm...

Quoting Atlflyer (Thread starter):
Delta is in discussions with the PANYNJ and JFK IAT regarding the third phase but has yet to determine a timeline the project, she says.

The actual announcement is that DL is *discussing* P3.

As above, it seems people are shifting past/present/future around to make various points and IMHO coming up short.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-31 11:40:40 and read 5455 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 136):
I think that's consistent with what I've been saying - DL's working hard to try to catch up to where the competitors are now today, and the competitors can choose to spend incremental amounts to keep themselves out in front or just sit and wait to see what happens with P3.

Catch up with what? AA was the largest airline at JFK 10 years ago. Now they are a distant, distant third behind B6 and DL.

AA gave up slots at JFK, DL jumped up to 200.

DL has the flights, AA has a palace that they have to bring a bunch of one world partners into to even fill the gate space.

UA has sat tight at EWR and Delta has become the largest airline in LGA and JFK and is now adding international flights to EWR.

If I had to be anyone in the NYC market right now I would be in order:

1. UA
2. DL
3. B6
4. AA

B6 gets away with the number 3 spot because they are the LCC in the bunch.

AA has lost a lot of relevance in NY over the last decade.

Delta is in a very good position in NY. And in terms of momentum, it is on there side. Lots of flights, profitablity, and marketshare.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-31 12:04:07 and read 5412 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 137):
AA gave up slots at JFK, DL jumped up to 200.

The current slot regime cannot last forever. It is detrimental to economic growth. When it goes, DL will be at a disadvantage because long piers are not customer-friendly and are an inefficient use of the available space.

In the meantime, the new AA will have currency to buy things. It is not unforeseen that JetBlue and AA would trade slots at DCA and JFK. Dare I say it. I imagine that is why the new AA is lobbying to keep all of the slots from the merger.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 137):
If I had to be anyone in the NYC market right now I would be in order:

1. UA
2. DL
3. B6
4. AA

Once the merger closes, AA is solid enough again at LGA to keep Delta from realizing most of the hub effects from its larger slot portfolio. Indeed, now with the US Shuttle in AA's hands, it is going to be a real fight.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 137):
AA has lost a lot of relevance in NY over the last decade.

Yet, Delta had to purchase a 49% stake in VS because it was at a competitive disadvantage on the one transatlantic route that really matters to New York corporate accounts.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-05-31 12:14:31 and read 5395 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 138):
The current slot regime cannot last forever.

Yes it can. Airspace capacity in NYC is unlikely to make any significant improvements. As is, there are probably too many slots given out during the peak period at JFK (3-8pm). The FAA has nothing in the pipeline that will make any significant improvements to NYC terminal airspace.

So building giant Taj Mahal terminals is kind of pointless if they're just going to sit empty throughout much of the day.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: luckyone
Posted 2013-05-31 12:26:49 and read 5386 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 138):
The current slot regime cannot last forever. It is detrimental to economic growth.

Where do you propose the runway necessary to overcome it be placed?

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 138):
When it goes, DL will be at a disadvantage because long piers are not customer-friendly and are an inefficient use of the available space.

You keep saying that. Yet airports get larger and concourses and piers get longer.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 138):
Once the merger closes, AA is solid enough again at LGA to keep Delta from realizing most of the hub effects from its larger slot portfolio. Indeed, now with the US Shuttle in AA's hands, it is going to be a real fight.

Delta will still carry about two million more passengers per year than the combined carriers. Delta serves over 60 cities from LGA. AA less than twenty, including seasonal flights, and is about to lose a flight to CRW. Adding US to the combination adds only Washington and Philadelphia to the portfolio, neither of which will print money.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-31 12:47:30 and read 5365 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 139):
Yes it can. Airspace capacity in NYC is unlikely to make any significant improvements. As is, there are probably too many slots given out during the peak period at JFK (3-8pm). The FAA has nothing in the pipeline that will make any significant improvements to NYC terminal airspace.

Again, economic imperatives will eventually prevail. Otherwise, economic activity will bypass New York.


Quoting luckyone (Reply 140):
You keep saying that. Yet airports get larger and concourses and piers get longer.

Piers are getting longer, but they are also being equipped with APM's that cut those distances into short walks from gate to gate. See Beijing. At JFK, Delta will have a pier that is about half the size of their terminal in Detroit and at Detroit one can take the APM from the midpoint to the end.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: luckyone
Posted 2013-05-31 12:54:18 and read 5360 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 141):
Piers are getting longer, but they are also being equipped with APM's that cut those distances into short walks from gate to gate. See Beijing.

The PEK T3 APM only takes one between piers. They still require a lot of subsequent walking. Also, the new terminals in Dubai do not have APMs in the concourses themselves, and they are 3,100ft long.

[Edited 2013-05-31 13:00:18]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: cokepopper
Posted 2013-05-31 13:01:40 and read 5349 times.

All this talk of the "so long of a walk" .....seriously ? Maybe if more Americans would put the cheeseburger down and walked more, we wouldn't have this ridiculous conversation.
As Many have stated the Extension and revamp is 1000% better than T-3
with the constraints at JFK and with Delta NOT having to shut anything down during the
built, NOT to mention the cost associated, this fits Delta's needs just fine. Most Airlines
are just a SARS or terrorist attack away from extinction. I'm glad MY company isn't building
a grand palace just to get in a "who's bigger contest" with our competitors or some inconsequential
A Netter's grandiose dreams. And by the way Doesn't United at EWR have an operation that
is spread out of three Terminals?

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-05-31 13:37:22 and read 5313 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 138):
The current slot regime cannot last forever. It is detrimental to economic growth. When it goes, DL will be at a disadvantage because long piers are not customer-friendly and are an inefficient use of the available space.

In the meantime, the new AA will have currency to buy things. It is not unforeseen that JetBlue and AA would trade slots at DCA and JFK. Dare I say it. I imagine that is why the new AA is lobbying to keep all of the slots from the merger.

You don't understand the NYC airport capacity situation at all, do you? Give this a read, then come back and talk. While you are reading it, take a look at the timeframes involved. http://www.rpa.org/pdf/RPA-Upgrading-to-World-Class.pdf

NextGen will help, someday. But slots will still exist in NYC.

What I REALLY don't understand is your comment that "the new AA will have currency to buy things". Is that really clear at all? Is there any proven track record? Will the new AA suddenly become as profitable as Delta? Or will it look more like United? And even if it does have the money, there is no assurance it could outbid DL or UA for assets. There is certainly no assurance regulators would allow them to, if they did.

And finally, few of JetBlue's slots are in the critical afternoon window that carriers value at JFK. The ones that are in that window will be critically important to JetBlue's long-term growth strategy. And those DCA slots that AA will hold are likely more valuable than most of the JFK slots anyway.

How you've turned the argument that the concourse is too long into all of this, I have no idea. But you are dreaming if you think that Delta is going to allow its NYC advantage to be squandered to AA at this point. Delta has the finances, the facilities AND the slot portfolio (it only uses about 80% of its JFK slots today) to win at both LGA and JFK.

American's ONLY remaining structural advantage in NYC is that some of its gates require a shorter walk. Amazing how you can turn that into "the future is bright" for AA at NYC.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: Cubsrule
Posted 2013-05-31 13:45:52 and read 5285 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 144):
Amazing how you can turn that into "the future is bright" for AA at NYC.

Isn't NYC both larger and less fragmented than it ever has been? It seems that both might have bright futures.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jetlanta
Posted 2013-05-31 14:11:19 and read 5257 times.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 145):
Isn't NYC both larger and less fragmented than it ever has been? It seems that both might have bright futures.

I think that both can do very well as demand begins to permanently outstrip capacity. What I am pushing back at is the ludicrous idea that T4's longer concourse puts Delta's NYC position in some sort of jeopardy to AA's advances.

He seems to be saying the longer concourse at JFK that SOME passenger will experience seems to be more of an obstacle to DL than the significant (and likely permanent) slot deficit at JFK & LGA is to AA. Also, never mind that AA has to operate out of third world facilities at LGA until they have the pleasure of operating in even worse circumstances while the new CTB is built.

So yes, AA will do fine in the long run at NYC, but there is nothing that would significantly change the competitive position they hold versus DL in NYC. And a merger with jetBlue isn't going to happen.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-31 14:28:26 and read 5221 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 136):

Condemning? Not me. Criticizing, sure.

Ok......so you're criticizing BEFORE any and all bugs get worked out of it.........is that better?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 136):

No, this is a discussion forum, and I don't why we can't/shouldn't - maybe you should explain further. It's been clear for a while what P1 was going to be, and now that it's here it's even more clear. We know P2 is coming and P3 is, well...

Can you condemn an a/c before it ever gets off the ground or an airport terminal BEFORE you've really used it? I'm not praising it, yet, because I haven't been there.......but I have been to T3 and there's NO WAY that T4 can't be a huge improvement. I'm also not going to criticize T4 until I've been there and had a chance to give my thumbs up or thumbs down.

As I've said before, there are those on here that use any and all excuses to be able to bash DL for whatever they've done. That is hardly constructive criticizm.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: EricR
Posted 2013-05-31 14:42:01 and read 5198 times.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 137):
If I had to be anyone in the NYC market right now I would be in order:



Why would you want to be number 1 in the NYC market? Why waste all of those assets and resources on a competitive, delay proned market? Wouldn't it be better to be a solid number 3 or 4 and focus on just O&D traffic to select important destinations?

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-05-31 15:43:27 and read 5170 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 141):
Again, economic imperatives will eventually prevail. Otherwise, economic activity will bypass New York.

Slots at JFK during the peak time (3-8pm) have been around for decades, yet economic imperatives have done little to change this. The only thing economic incentives may do is cause carriers to upgauge aircraft. That alone could easily allow airlines to increase capacity at JFK by 20-30% without adding a single flight. That's enough capacity for quite a while since air travel in the U.S. as a whole will only grow marginally in the decade to come. Not to mention that outside of international flights and some domestic transcons, almost all other flights out of JFK are weak yields so carriers like DL/AA are in no mood to add a lot of capacity there.

And if economic imperatives really prevailed, it'd actually be more cost effective to build high speed rail in the Northeast corridor (real high speed, not Acela) and get rid of all those stupid shorthaul flights that clog NYC's airspace. Granted, even that isn't going to happen.

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: jfklganyc
Posted 2013-05-31 15:51:59 and read 5149 times.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 140):
Delta will still carry about two million more passengers per year than the combined carriers. Delta serves over 60 cities from LGA. AA less than twenty, including seasonal flights, and is about to lose a flight to CRW. Adding US to the combination adds only Washington and Philadelphia to the portfolio, neither of which will print money.

Thank you for that reality check.

Quoting EricR (Reply 148):
Why would you want to be number 1 in the NYC market? Why waste all of those assets and resources on a competitive, delay proned market? Wouldn't it be better to be a solid number 3 or 4 and focus on just O&D traffic to select important destinations?

Because it is the largest air market in the US. And there are more people living in the borough of Queens (1/5 of NYC) than most cities in the US. Amd because Wall Street, the leading financial center in the world is there. That means there are lots of people with lots of money. That's why you want to be number 1

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-05-31 19:30:40 and read 5030 times.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 144):
And even if it does have the money, there is no assurance it could outbid DL or UA for assets. There is certainly no assurance regulators would allow them to, if they did.

When did this become about buying the world or taking over the world? I was simply suggesting that AA could trade excess DCA slots for more JFK slots.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 144):
How you've turned the argument that the concourse is too long into all of this, I have no idea. But you are dreaming if you think that Delta is going to allow its NYC advantage to be squandered to AA at this point. Delta has the finances, the facilities AND the slot portfolio (it only uses about 80% of its JFK slots today) to win at both LGA and JFK.

Ha, Ha, Ha. I did no such thing. Follow the conversation more closely. I was responding to a post about those things. And, for the record, I have no problem with long walks. I have a problem with bad design. (Delta is becoming synonymous with bad design.)

As to winning in New York, the market is very fragmented and none of the top 4 airlines (even United) has a dominant position at all three NY airports. There will be no winning in New York. If it were that simple, Delta would have been declared the winner after the slot swap. Yet, it still had to spend $300 million to buy a stake in VS.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 144):
American's ONLY remaining structural advantage in NYC is that some of its gates require a shorter walk. Amazing how you can turn that into "the future is bright" for AA at NYC.

Again, who is making this argument? I am not. You are the one who seems to have conveniently confused the two predicates (short walks and winning in New York) in order to trivialize the argument some of us have been making. For the record, bad design has no specific causal relationship to not "winning in New York." Bad design, however, puts a lie to Delta's ambitions to be an iconic brand. That's the argument I have been making.

[Edited 2013-05-31 19:38:27]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: NYCAdvantage
Posted 2013-05-31 20:38:37 and read 4960 times.

When you honestly answer this questions it will give you an idea of Delta satisfaction on the project

Will Delta customers be happier at T4 than on T3?
Will Delta operation run smoother than at T 3?
Will delta gain more business customers by switching from T3 to T4?
And most important will Delta have 2013 worst airport terminal in the world?
Will Delta make more, same or less money at T4 than T3?

The reality is time is needed to answer a few of the questions others you could answer quickly. But I fell T4 investment is
going to pay off for Delta.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 151):

If it were that simple, Delta would have been declared the winner after the slot swap. Yet, it still had to spend $300 million to buy a stake in VS.
Why not improve your position if you can in the JFK- LHR.
By Richard Anderson speaking of Delta becoming an iconic brand, he is telling you that they are upping their service,
I heard R. Anderson the other day wanting to improve to VS standards. And that neither UA, AA nor WN will beat Delta
On service, Then you hear J.S. from UA, and D.P. future CEO of AA comparing their product to Delta's, it tells me DL is doing something wright. I don't see anything wrong by setting high standards goals to your work force to improve on your achievements.

[Edited 2013-05-31 21:02:25]

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: ocracoke
Posted 2013-05-31 21:28:01 and read 4929 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 138):
Yet, Delta had to purchase a 49% stake in VS because it was at a competitive disadvantage on the one transatlantic route that really matters to New York corporate accounts.
Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 151):
Yet, it still had to spend $300 million to buy a stake in VS.

What exactly is the point here? In 1990, AA was at a competitive disadvantage on that one transatlantic route, so it went out and spent $455 million to buy it and LHR access from TWA. In 2012, DL pays $300 to get a share of VS and along with that, more access on that route. I'm not sure where you are going with this? It's good that AA spent $455m back in 1990, but somehow it's a sign of weakness that DL does the same thing (but at a lower price tag) in 2012?

Topic: RE: Delta Announces Phase III Of JFK T4
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-31 21:41:28 and read 4911 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 151):
Ha, Ha, Ha. I did no such thing. Follow the conversation more closely. I was responding to a post about those things. And, for the record, I have no problem with long walks. I have a problem with bad design. (Delta is becoming synonymous with bad design.)

Try to be objective and explain to us how you came up with that theory? Betcha can't...............


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