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Topic: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: raffik
Posted 2013-05-30 04:49:44 and read 20687 times.

Just read this article that BA left stranded 140 passengers at Venice when the cabin crew ran out of working ours and the aircraft departed without paying passengers.
People claim that medicine, children's toys and food were locked in suitcases that were locked away from the passengers and that they were locked into the airport without food or water and forced to sleep on the floor .
Sounds like a disaster. It seems like a shame that the aircraft couldn't carry all of the passengers back to London

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22717377

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-05-30 05:04:49 and read 20561 times.

Ok a few points from this article :

Quoting raffik (Thread starter):
People claim that medicine

They are stupid if they put medication in checked baggage. Sorry to be harsh but if your on medication you carry at least 48 hours extra supply in your carry on or sometimes even more.

Tech issues happen but its the way you handle them that makes the difference. Seems BA failed on a few things. When such an emergency happens then the local station manager should step up and take on the challenge to make sure his/her passengers are as comfortable as possible. No hotel rooms were available which is not BA's fault. If you have to keep them at the airport you get in food and drinks as a minimum even if you have to source them from a 24 hour mini market! There should be a clear charter of procedures for these instances within BA.

I think a decent compensation would be in addition to EU regs compensation a free ticket on any BA European route for future use.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: offloaded
Posted 2013-05-30 05:35:56 and read 20213 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
They are stupid if they put medication in checked baggage. Sorry to be harsh but if your on medication you carry at least 48 hours extra supply in your carry on or sometimes e

Totally agree on this point.

So the pilots were ok to fly, but the crew were out of hours. Would a special dispensation be appropriate from time to time, such as under exceptional circumstances crew were allowed to exceed hours but no more than once a month? I'm sure that the crew would rather have flown home than had to bunk down with pax in the airport.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-30 06:11:02 and read 19895 times.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):
So the pilots were ok to fly, but the crew were out of hours. Would a special dispensation be appropriate from time to time, such as under exceptional circumstances crew were allowed to exceed hours but no more than once a month? I'm sure that the crew would rather have flown home than had to bunk down with pax in the airport.

The cabin crew flew also home!

If any BA personal would have had to stay with the passengers the story would have played differently, than somebody from BA would have been bothered too.

Station manager not aloud home with passengers on the airport, crew having to bunk down with the passengers on the airport.

The aeroplane flew home so the crew would get home or to there hotel.

Can anybody explain to me how the cabin crew runs out of working hours but not the pilots?

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: bwaflyer
Posted 2013-05-30 06:19:29 and read 19822 times.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 3):
Can anybody explain to me how the cabin crew runs out of working hours but not the pilots?

The cabin crew would not necessarily be working the same trip as the pilots, they may have started work earlier.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: GT4EZY
Posted 2013-05-30 06:48:38 and read 19512 times.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):
So the pilots were ok to fly, but the crew were out of hours. Would a special dispensation be appropriate from time to time, such as under exceptional circumstances crew were allowed to exceed hours but no more than once a month? I'm sure that the crew would rather have flown home than had to bunk down with pax in the airport.

There is, it's called discretion but they may have already worked in to this and would no longer have been an option.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-30 07:04:34 and read 19376 times.

The flight to Venice was late, so I assume when the flight left LGW for Venice the time problem was known.

There are more than one solutions to the above problem.

1. No hotel in Venice, how far to the next hotel, hire two buses go to the next hotel even if it is one hour away.

2. Load everybody on board, fly to the next nearby airport with an empty hotel. Load the passengers again the next morning fly home. Air Atlanta did that with me once.

3. Piss on the passengers and do not trouble your on personal and schedule. Apologize afterwards.

Does really somebody agrees that this was a way to handle passengers? Apologies are cheap.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: offloaded
Posted 2013-05-30 07:23:37 and read 19239 times.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 3):
The cabin crew flew also home!

According to the article neith pax nor cabin crew could be found hotels.

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 5):
There is, it's called discretion but they may have already worked in to this and would no longer have been an option.

What is the maximum they can do if willing?

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2013-05-30 07:28:49 and read 19171 times.

How many hours/year are cabin crew permitted to work in the UK?

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: max999
Posted 2013-05-30 09:09:58 and read 18653 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
Tech issues happen but its the way you handle them that makes the difference. Seems BA failed on a few things. When such an emergency happens then the local station manager should step up and take on the challenge to make sure his/her passengers are as comfortable as possible. No hotel rooms were available which is not BA's fault. If you have to keep them at the airport you get in food and drinks as a minimum even if you have to source them from a 24 hour mini market! There should be a clear charter of procedures for these instances within BA.

The way I see it is this is a management failure. From my experience working in different corporate cultures, some companies emphasize a top down management approach. Decisions tend to get made from up top and lower level staff are just expected to carry out orders. It's sort of like the military.

I would venture to guess that in this situation, the local staff were not empowered enough to help the passengers out. A possible scenario is that BA rules allow local staff to book hotels, but they weren't allowed to book ground transportation. So with all the hotels in Venice full, booking a hotel outside the area would be pointless as they couldn't get transportation.

I'm sure the local staff wanted to help out passengers, but for whatever reason, they couldn't. And I think it's management issue along with a top down culture that kept them from doing so.

[Edited 2013-05-30 09:12:12]

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: aussiestu
Posted 2013-05-30 09:15:17 and read 18596 times.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 8):
How many hours/year are cabin crew permitted to work in the UK

EU regulations allow 900 hours flying time per year. Not a minute more.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: yyz717
Posted 2013-05-30 10:17:15 and read 18203 times.

Quoting raffik (Thread starter):
People claim that medicine, children's toys and food were locked in suitcases that were locked away from the passengers and that they were locked into the airport without food or water and forced to sleep on the floor .
Sounds like a disaster.

This is a not a disaster. People dying is a disaster. Locked toys and food is just a minor inconvenience.

Anyone really inconvenienced could have taken a train to Milan and flown home the same day (at extra cost of course). So staying behind in Venice was a decision these passengers made on their own. Not much sympathy here.....

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: sw733
Posted 2013-05-30 10:35:53 and read 18074 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
Anyone really inconvenienced could have taken a train to Milan and flown home the same day (at extra cost of course). So staying behind in Venice was a decision these passengers made on their own. Not much sympathy here.....

Yeah, how dare they not spend the money to take the train to Milan and purchase a last-minute walkup fare to LHR from Milan. What fools.

[Edited 2013-05-30 11:21:46]

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: Boeing77w
Posted 2013-05-30 10:40:56 and read 18024 times.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 7):
What is the maximum they can do if willing?

Usually an hour, can go to two hours if necessary. Paperwork and reports to the authorities if used.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: robsaw
Posted 2013-05-30 10:43:56 and read 17989 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
This is a not a disaster. People dying is a disaster. Locked toys and food is just a minor inconvenience.

Anyone really inconvenienced could have taken a train to Milan and flown home the same day (at extra cost of course). So staying behind in Venice was a decision these passengers made on their own. Not much sympathy here.....

Oh puhleeaase! Do you own a bunch of shares in BA or something!?!

It is a disaster - a PR disaster. Let's not get overly pedantic with language. It wasn't a "minor" inconvenience, it was a badly mismanaged and avoidable inconvenience.

Of course someone could have made alternative arrangements at their own expense if absolutely essential - the question is WHY BA DIDN'T DO more?

[Edited 2013-05-30 10:44:43]

[Edited 2013-05-30 10:45:19]

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: falstaff
Posted 2013-05-30 10:49:40 and read 17899 times.

Quoting raffik (Thread starter):
locked into the airport without food or water

I find it hard believe they were locked into the airport. If somebody locked me into an airport I would spend my time draining the bar. I'd break into the snack bar too. If there were 140 people locked into an airport I am sure many of them me. I might be breaking the law but locking people into an airport against their will isn't legal either.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
They are stupid if they put medication in checked baggage. Sorry to be harsh but if your on medication you carry at least 48 hours extra supply in your carry on or sometimes even more.

I agree and I always do, but some people on a.net feel that you aren't entitled to a carry on and you only need to carry what you will use on the flight itself.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: Pe@rson
Posted 2013-05-30 10:51:49 and read 17883 times.

Quoting aussiestu (Reply 10):

I know 900 hours is the limit for pilots - but it is also the limit for cabin crew? Wow!

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: EL-AL
Posted 2013-05-30 11:08:00 and read 17642 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
This is a not a disaster. People dying is a disaster. Locked toys and food is just a minor inconvenience.

Ever got stuck in an airport on another country far from home, tired after long day travelling with two screaming children who just want to get home after you bought a ticket with a major airline?

At that point i'm sure it was a disaster for passengers, and I totally understand why.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-30 11:11:17 and read 17549 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
Anyone really inconvenienced could have taken a train to Milan and flown home the same day (at extra cost of course). So staying behind in Venice was a decision these passengers made on their own. Not much sympathy here.....

Yes there are many night trains between Venice and Milan and many flights leaving from Milan to London around midnight.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: David L
Posted 2013-05-30 11:15:55 and read 17451 times.

Quoting max999 (Reply 9):
Decisions tend to get made from up top and lower level staff are just expected to carry out orders. It's sort of like the military.

I would hope that's not how the US military operates. In fact, I'm fairly sure it isn't. Although strategic goals might be set at the top, I would assume quite a bit of initiative is allowed, even expected, in how they're achieved. It was certainly a key difference between how the British military operated in comparison to the old Soviet Block military. I don't know what options the BA staff had but acting like the British military wouldn't necessarily have been a bad thing.  

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-05-30 11:26:47 and read 17168 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 15):
I agree and I always do, but some people on a.net feel that you aren't entitled to a carry on and you only need to carry what you will use on the flight itself.

They're called "NK/G4 Supporters."

Quoting David L (Reply 19):
I would hope that's not how the US military operates.

Trust me...it's not. The big decisions? Sure, but they leave the day to day decisions to the officers and NCO's.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: ely747
Posted 2013-05-30 12:20:56 and read 15873 times.

Quoting max999 (Reply 9):

I think that BA's H&S regulations came into actions in this particular situation. Other European countries do not have such uptight policies. If something were to go wrong with one of he passengers during the transit from Venice airport they could have taken it up with the airline.

I would expect BA to have some kind of "contingency planning" in place or at least set up agreements with i.e. non scheduled or local airlines. Back in 2007 my flight from LHR to VIE got cancelled because of the fog at Heathrow. BA gave me a stand by ticket to AMS and then was flown on KL into VIE. I thought it was a bit strange since BA and KLM don't go buddy buddy as both airlines play in different fields.

[Edited 2013-05-30 12:23:05]

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: anstar
Posted 2013-05-30 12:34:52 and read 15488 times.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 16):
I know 900 hours is the limit for pilots - but it is also the limit for cabin crew? Wow!

Remember that is only the FLYING hours, not WORKING hours.


So take off 4 weeks for holidays per year and lets just say another week for the public holidays and then usually a week for their Emergency Procedure exams etc, then then that means around 20 hours a week flying. Of course that 20 hours per week flying doesn't take into account the pre flight briefings etc. Ie a longhaul airline may require crew to report 2 hours before to do briefings and then boarding.. whilst they are "working" they are not flying so the flying hours are not counted. Likewise for shorthaul... I am sure alot of the ground time is not calculated towards the 900 hours.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: flyforever
Posted 2013-05-30 13:31:50 and read 14214 times.

Guys, please, I'm Italia and Venice is the airport I fly from most of the time.

There are plenty of Hotels all around Venice (guys it's VENICE), I'm not talking about B&B, I'm talking about huge holiday Inn in Mestre!!
Furthermore, there are several hotels in Treviso and Padova (where I come from) and Abano Terme is a typical tourist place full of hotel like Ibiza. All these destinations are within an hour driving from Venice airport. Three coaches to move all the 140 passengers for sure would have been available (still talking about VENICE).

No trains from Venice to Milan during the night, so bad idea. No flights to London during the night.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 15):
I find it hard believe they were locked into the airport. If somebody locked me into an airport I would spend my time draining the bar. I'd break into the snack bar too. If there were 140 people locked into an airport I am sure many of them me. I might be breaking the law but locking people into an airport against their will isn't legal either.

Yeha, nobody stuck them into the airport, but... have you ever been there?? There in NOTHING around Venice airport, water on the right side and an highway on the left sidewith some parking spaces and probably a camping if I'm correct. Bar? Cafè? In Venice Aiport? At midnight? It's not Singapore, nor Dubai... it's Venice, the fourth or fifth airport in Italy......

From an airlines point of view IT IS a disaster IMHO.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2013-05-30 13:36:26 and read 14097 times.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
They are stupid if they put medication in checked baggage. Sorry to be harsh but if your on medication you carry at least 48 hours extra supply in your carry on or sometimes e

Totally agree on this point.

Excerpt from BA baggage guidelines in their website:

Carry medication, money and important documents in your hand baggage.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: 707lvr
Posted 2013-05-30 13:52:36 and read 14432 times.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
They are stupid if they put medication in checked baggage. Sorry to be harsh but if your on medication you carry at least 48 hours extra supply in your carry on or sometimes even more.

Unless they are unlucky enough to get a really cross Gestapo officer who decides to throw it away for some reason.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-30 13:53:51 and read 14443 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
They are stupid if they put medication in checked baggage. Sorry to be harsh but if your on medication you carry at least 48 hours extra supply in your carry on or sometimes e

Totally agree on this point.

Excerpt from BA baggage guidelines in their website:

Carry medication, money and important documents in your hand baggage.

Oh, good it was possible to find something some passengers did wrong.

Guys we are not talking about an second rate charter line, here we are talking about a supposedly first tire airline with a normal scheduled flight. It seems no BA personal were there to inform passengers what was happening. Passengers trying to phone BA were not getting through.

So BA failed on all the things possible, did not provide accommodation, no hotel, no food, no beverages.
But worst of all they did not even provide information.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: OA260
Posted 2013-05-30 14:08:05 and read 14229 times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 15):
I agree and I always do, but some people on a.net feel that you aren't entitled to a carry on and you only need to carry what you will use on the flight itself.

Well they are not the Airlines so I would ignore them and read the airlines guidelines as stated below  
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Excerpt from BA baggage guidelines in their website:

Carry medication, money and important documents in your hand baggage.

Exactly .

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 25):
Unless they are unlucky enough to get a really cross Gestapo officer who decides to throw it away for some reason.

Well that is quite rare at least here in Europe. My Father is insulin dependant and is a very frequent flyer. A letter from his Dr along with the prescriptions/chemists printed stickers on medication is enough.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: PA110
Posted 2013-05-30 14:56:42 and read 13244 times.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
Anyone really inconvenienced could have taken a train to Milan and flown home the same day (at extra cost of course). So staying behind in Venice was a decision these passengers made on their own. Not much sympathy here.....

With that type of callous attitude, let's just hope you're not in customer service.   

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2013-05-30 17:09:27 and read 11249 times.

This is just unbelievable. They knew already before leaving LGW that the cabin crew would run out of time, why didn't they change the cabin crew before departure from LGW? So stupid!

I thought that it would be impossible to beat Ryanair in this type of contest. And honestly, I would never have guessed that it would be BA taking 1st prize.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: YLWbased
Posted 2013-05-30 19:51:53 and read 9540 times.

This is even worst that Cebu Pacific (5J), also known as the worst LCC in Asia when it comes down to crisis management and customer service.

I was once scheduled to fly MNL-MPH on one of their ATR-72 @4pm, it is about a 60mins flight, MPH is not equipped with any ground lighting, hence only day light operation is permitted.

We're left cooked inside the hot cabin for about 1.5 hrs without AC before the captain came it and said due to "runway congestion" we're unable to take off and make it into MPH with enough day light for the aircraft to turn around, so the flight is cancelled.

We than boarded and bus and the driver drove us to a far corner of MNL and exited the bus and disappeared into thin air... (Real professional, left a bunch of passenger in the restricted area unattended).

After about another 1.5 hrs (atleast with Air Con), some dude in Cebu Pacific Uniform shows up with PIZZA HUT! We were like OMG, Pizza! We all had at least a slice and a Can of soda, from 5J with complements :p

At 10:45pm, 5J arranged an A320, merged the 2 affected ATR flight passengers into one, and took off from MNL to KLO. KLO is a 24hrs international airport located about 1 hrs drive away from MPH. KLO station manager arranged us free shuttle bus and free burger for us upon our arrival, and drove us to MPH and drop us off at the ferry pier (most passengers heading to MPH is for the Boracay Island), since the ferry services stops at 10pm daily, 5J chartered 5 ferries for us and took us onto the island.

Now even a terrible LCC could provide that level of service, what is wrong with u BA?

YLWbased

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: ggflyboy
Posted 2013-05-30 21:48:14 and read 8504 times.

This incident reminds me of my time stuck in Venice courtesy of BA back in 2003. That time the inbound flight from LGW was delayed due to an unfortunate collision between a tug and the 737.

All I remember is that there was precious little to do in the Venice airport. I think I sat in the administrative hall on the second floor and journaled.

I haven't been to the Venice airport since - maybe the amenities have improved.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: vegas005
Posted 2013-05-30 23:28:10 and read 7572 times.

The work hour rule should have been waived in this case. Tell the customers there will be no inflight service and have the flight attendants sit at there assigned stations for the duration of the short flight. Many professions work crazy hours including doctors so I am sure the FA's could handle it...

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: Aquila3
Posted 2013-05-30 23:44:48 and read 7403 times.

Well, MOL will be happy! Another bunch of customers for Ryan Air!
Shame on you BA!

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: AR385
Posted 2013-05-30 23:47:02 and read 7400 times.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 29):
This is just unbelievable. They knew already before leaving LGW that the cabin crew would run out of time, why didn't they change the cabin crew before departure from LGW? So stupid!

The logical thing would have been to simply cancel the flight at LGW. I assume finding a new cabin crew is probably an impossible endeavor for an airline like FR...Oh wait, it´s BA we are talking about, I forgot.

Still. Why did the plane left LGW in the first place?

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: YVRFlyer
Posted 2013-05-31 00:33:02 and read 6884 times.

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 32):
The work hour rule should have been waived in this case. Tell the customers there will be no inflight service and have the flight attendants sit at there assigned stations for the duration of the short flight. Many professions work crazy hours including doctors so I am sure the FA's could handle it...

I'm surprised no one, not even MOL has proposed amending safety laws to allow passengers to fly in planes without a cabin crew, or with minimal staffing. Certainly, it can be argued that a cabin crew is necessary in emergency situations, but what about for people who are willing/capable of accepting slightly higher risks, who do as they say in the tech world, "Read The Effin' Manual" and understand what to do in the slight chance of accidents.

Personally, I would be happy to fly in such a situation. Having flown in no-frills airlines, it's not something that would be uncomfortable for me. I do watch/read the safety instructions, and the lack of cabin service would not be a problem for myself. I would happily trade off some minuscule risk in exchange for a lower fare, or even better convenience, as there wouldn't be a risk of ending up booked on a flight where the cabin crew go over their limits.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-31 01:18:53 and read 6384 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
The logical thing would have been to simply cancel the flight at LGW. I assume finding a new cabin crew is probably an impossible endeavor for an airline like FR...Oh wait, it´s BA we are talking about, I forgot.

Still. Why did the plane left LGW in the first place?
Quoting AR385 (Reply 34):
The logical thing would have been to simply cancel the flight at LGW. I assume finding a new cabin crew is probably an impossible endeavor for an airline like FR...Oh wait, it´s BA we are talking about, I forgot.

Still. Why did the plane left LGW in the first place?

I assume there were passengers from LGW to Venice.

Perhaps they could have included some extra cabin crew with the pax or switched over to a fresh crew.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: Tristarsteve
Posted 2013-05-31 02:09:26 and read 5941 times.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 29):
This is just unbelievable. They knew already before leaving LGW that the cabin crew would run out of time, why didn't they change the cabin crew before departure from LGW? So stupid!

This B737 had a technical problem in Venice. It was not planned in advance. By the time the aircraft was fixed, the cabin crew could not work.

BA sent a replacement B737 empty to Venice the next morning to collect the passengers.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: aussiestu
Posted 2013-05-31 02:11:45 and read 5900 times.

Quoting vegas005 (Reply 32):
The work hour rule should have been waived in this case. Tell the customers there will be no inflight service and have the flight attendants sit at there assigned stations for the duration of the short flight.

Nice idea but totally against EU flying regulations. It may all seem simple but those are the rules imposed by Brussels and the CAA.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: babybus
Posted 2013-05-31 02:59:15 and read 5411 times.

Quoting anstar (Reply 22):
Remember that is only the FLYING hours, not WORKING hours.

You also have to factor into that equation that BA pilots are paid from the moment the leave their front door to the time they get back to it. Hence, you have pilots who live the maximum official commuting time from the airport of 2 hours.

It's not a bad gig really.

The same does not apply to the cabin crew.

Not sure if this anomaly has been changed in the last few years.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: GLAGAZ
Posted 2013-05-31 03:34:51 and read 5092 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 39):
You also have to factor into that equation that BA pilots are paid from the moment the leave their front door to the time they get back to it.

I find that hard to believe. So someone who lives 10 minutes from LHR/LGW will not get as much pay as someone who lives 2 hours away??? What do they do? Phone crewing each time they leave their front door? :P

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: AirbusA6
Posted 2013-05-31 03:55:45 and read 4902 times.

A very poor show, one of the main reasons people might choose BA over U2 and FR is that they look after you if things go wrong, indeed I remember an advert a few years ago stating this.

And yes, not finding a hotel somewhere nearby is a very poor show, it's hard to believe something couldn't have been found on the mainland

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: LHRFlyer
Posted 2013-05-31 04:03:19 and read 4823 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 39):
You also have to factor into that equation that BA pilots are paid from the moment the leave their front door to the time they get back to it. Hence, you have pilots who live the maximum official commuting time from the airport of 2 hours.

It's not a bad gig really.

I don't think this is true at all. Pilots do, I believe, earn an hourly rate, but not from when they leave their homes.

As for the original story, it sounds like a horrible situation. But the press rarely give the whole story and I suspect there must be more to this than meets the eye.

[Edited 2013-05-31 04:04:14]

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-31 04:52:53 and read 4193 times.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 37):
This B737 had a technical problem in Venice. It was not planned in advance. By the time the aircraft was fixed, the cabin crew could not work.


Exactly there was no planing in advance!  banghead 

The technical Problem was earlier in the day, the plane was late arriving in Venice.
So BA should have know it before it became a problem.
But they got the aeroplane and crew safely home.  sarcastic 

BA statement: "The aircraft due to operate the flight to Gatwick was delayed into Venice because of a technical fault earlier in the day"

[Edited 2013-05-31 04:58:14]

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-31 05:01:10 and read 4070 times.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 42):
As for the original story, it sounds like a horrible situation. But the press rarely give the whole story and I suspect there must be more to this than meets the eye.

Of course the airline can be at fault, lets find what the passengers did wrong.   

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: usdcaguy
Posted 2013-05-31 05:50:24 and read 3930 times.

It would appear that the expense of Venice matched with what I presume to be a normally inexpensive flight to LGW is what produced this situation. It's as though BA expected the passengers to look after themselves if only because their fares were so low. This could have happened with a US carrier as well, but Venice is an abnormally expensive place to travel to. It's not as though you could put people up at a Motel 6. It's high season, and the ability to respond would therefore be grossly hindered by logistical complications and expense. Perhaps BA could and should have paid for hotels somewhere regardless, but at any given time, matching cheap airfare with expensive, popular destinations could result in a negative experience for travelers if things do not go according to plan. Yet another reason to travel outside of high season and why cheaper places, like Romania or North Africa, may be more satisfying.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: LHRFlyer
Posted 2013-05-31 06:01:18 and read 3902 times.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 44):
Of course the airline can be at fault, lets find what the passengers did wrong.

No-one is saying the passengers did anything wrong.

No-one has any evidence that hotel accommodation was not provided because BA wasn't prepared to pay for it.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: tonystan
Posted 2013-05-31 06:09:49 and read 3875 times.

Well one way or the other this was horrifically dealt with by BA and is most certainly not the norm.

The service standards at the airline specifically mention that an overnight cancellation should result in hotel accommodation. Now having had a look I cannot find in the directory a station manager for VCE which makes me think that BAs ground handling is totally outsourced in Venice and Ethan's this is a case of the ground staff just could not have been bothered. I'm not trying to pass blame but these things do happen. It's up to BA to ensure standards are being maintained and clearly this is not the case.

I expect an impending change in handling agents or at least a case of whoop-@ss

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: offloaded
Posted 2013-05-31 07:02:51 and read 3742 times.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 26):
Oh, good it was possible to find something some passengers did wrong.

We were referring to the issue of packing medication in a suitcase rather than carrying it in hand baggage. Common sense says that this is not wise. Every airline in the world loses a suitcase now and then, so even if this BA flight had left on time with all is passengers, there is still a possibility that this pax bag would have got lost. I am in no way defending what was a situation badly handled by the airline, but yes, if you insist, the medication issue is someing the pax did wrong.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-31 12:03:16 and read 3390 times.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 46):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 44):
Of course the airline can be at fault, lets find what the passengers did wrong.

No-one is saying the passengers did anything wrong.

No-one has any evidence that hotel accommodation was not provided because BA wasn't prepared to pay for it.

Only the old, not the whole story.


BA operates 5 flights out of VCE, three to LGW and one each LHR and LCY.
The flight from LGW is late also today , about 1:30, so it will leave late today again.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-31 12:14:55 and read 3342 times.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 45):
It would appear that the expense of Venice matched with what I presume to be a normally inexpensive flight to LGW is what produced this situation. It's as though BA expected the passengers to look after themselves if only because their fares were so low. This could have happened with a US carrier as well, but Venice is an abnormally expensive place to travel to. It's not as though you could put people up at a Motel 6. It's high season, and the ability to respond would therefore be grossly hindered by logistical complications and expense. Perhaps BA could and should have paid for hotels somewhere regardless, but at any given time, matching cheap airfare with expensive, popular destinations could result in a negative experience for travelers if things do not go according to plan. Yet another reason to travel outside of high season and why cheaper places, like Romania or North Africa, may be more satisfying.

We are talking here not about a cheap charter flight, but a normal scheduled flight.

So even when the airline has the policy of providing accommodation, pax should not expect it when it is expensive?

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: mjoelnir
Posted 2013-05-31 12:31:55 and read 3304 times.

It is getting better:

one of the passengers: "I take your point about the airport being part of the problem, not having enough blankets for example, but having been one of the passengers involved I believe the airport staff were in constant communication with BA and one member of staff had a BA uniform on. We were not told that hotel rooms were unavailable, instead we were told the cancelled flight was now running again at 1.20. Luggage was checked in again, back through security around 1am, lined up at gate and once we were all there told it was cancelled again and we were to spend the night in the airport. I can't believe BA were oblivious to all this and if they were why were they?"

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articl...sleep+on+venice+airport+floor.html

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: AT
Posted 2013-05-31 13:39:19 and read 3140 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 39):

Quoting anstar (Reply 22):
Remember that is only the FLYING hours, not WORKING hours.

You also have to factor into that equation that BA pilots are paid from the moment the leave their front door to the time they get back to it. Hence, you have pilots who live the maximum official commuting time from the airport of 2 hours.

It's not a bad gig really.

The same does not apply to the cabin crew.

Not sure if this anomaly has been changed in the last few years.

So cockpit crew were paid for travel time but not cabin crew? That sounds unfair at best.

Also how long would it take for the crew to rest before being back in compliance?

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: prebennorholm
Posted 2013-05-31 13:58:46 and read 3105 times.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 37):
This B737 had a technical problem in Venice. It was not planned in advance. By the time the aircraft was fixed, the cabin crew could not work.

That is incorrect. They had no technical problem in Venice. The aircraft due to operate the flight to Gatwick was delayed into Venice because of a technical fault earlier in the day.

The very simplest math told them already before leaving LGW that the cabin crew would not make it back to LGW.

Airline scheduling may make a mistake when things go wrong, OK. But then they have 3 or 4 FAs to tell them that they cannot make the roundtrip. FAs who are assumed to add 2 and 2 together and make it 4.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: BasilFawlty
Posted 2013-05-31 16:43:17 and read 2823 times.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 43):
BA statement: "The aircraft due to operate the flight to Gatwick was delayed into Venice because of a technical fault earlier in the day"

Normally I would agree with the airline, but... since they already knew in advance that the flight was operated behind of schedule it's just stupid and very poor planning. They could've done a crew change in LGW, unless no other crews were available, but in that case they could've called Titan Airways (or similar) to operate the flights.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: Boeing77w
Posted 2013-05-31 17:07:17 and read 2755 times.

Quoting babybus (Reply 39):

This isn't correct.

Crew are paid Duty Pay in addition to other allowances and their basic salary. The Duty Pay is calculated from the time they report for their flights, an hour prior to departure, to the time they finish their day, 30mins after arriving on stand.

These times can vary by airline.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: YVRLTN
Posted 2013-05-31 20:10:17 and read 2604 times.

This is nothing, they left me in Dar Es Salaam for 5 DAYS... VCE is a lot nicer than DAR!

That was 2005, not flown them since.

Quoting flyforever (Reply 23):
There are plenty of Hotels all around Venice (guys it's VENICE), I'm not talking about B&B, I'm talking about huge holiday Inn in Mestre!!
Furthermore, there are several hotels in Treviso and Padova (where I come from) and Abano Terme is a typical tourist place full of hotel like Ibiza. All these destinations are within an hour driving from Venice airport. Three coaches to move all the 140 passengers for sure would have been available (still talking about VENICE).

   There are dozens and dozens of hotels in Venice, one of the top tourist destinations in Europe. Not even peak season yet either.

Topic: RE: BA Abandons 140 Passengers At Venice
Username: skywaymanaz
Posted 2013-06-01 01:50:49 and read 2394 times.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):
So the pilots were ok to fly, but the crew were out of hours. Would a special dispensation be appropriate from time to time

Maybe someone can quote the JAA or EU rules on this but I know in the US paying passengers can not be carried under part 91 flight operations. A ferry flight with crew only by the airline is legal as a part 91 op even if the crew has timed out under passenger op rules.

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 25):
Unless they are unlucky enough to get a really cross Gestapo officer who decides to throw it away for some reason.

I've had friends who swear this has happened to them with pain medications despite them having a perscription. I don't need pain medication and have yet to have this happen to me with TSA or other nations airport security *knock on wood*. Fortunately my meds are only needed to keep me from sneezing my head off from allergies. After that kind of a bad experience though I can believe people would check them. They shouldn't but [darn]ed if you, [darn]ed if you don't.


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