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Topic: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: Triple7Lr
Posted 2013-05-30 07:28:32 and read 10039 times.

I ran across this interesting article. They collected $144 million in baggage fees in 2012 and that figure is expected to grow. How does Southwest replace that revenue once fully integrated ???

http://archives.californiaaviation.org/airport/msg51600.html

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: MIflyer12
Posted 2013-05-30 07:42:34 and read 9978 times.

The business case implicit in the whole campaign 'Bags fly free' is that profit from incremental ticket sales exceeds foregone baggage fees.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-05-30 07:47:14 and read 9945 times.

Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):
and that figure is expected to grow.

How? FL is shrinking and going away.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2013-05-30 09:22:00 and read 9629 times.

Personally, I think those on Ding! Fares and Want to Get Away fares should have to pay $25/bag while the other fare buckets are still free. Would go hand-in-hand with the "no-show penalty".

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-05-30 09:44:26 and read 9521 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 3):
Personally, I think those on Ding! Fares and Want to Get Away fares should have to pay $25/bag while the other fare buckets are still free.

Nope...not a snowball's chance in hell. Those are your bread and butter pax, and you want WN to take a proverbial dump on them?

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: planespotting
Posted 2013-05-30 09:53:02 and read 9461 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 3):
Personally, I think those on Ding! Fares and Want to Get Away fares should have to pay $25/bag while the other fare buckets are still free. Would go hand-in-hand with the "no-show penalty".

I think that's a great idea - if you purchase in a certain fare class within a certain time frame, you have to pay for bags.

Maybe reward passengers for buying ahead of time (say, purchase any ticket three months before the flight and bags fly free), but buy a ticket within 90 days of your filght in one of the two lower, cheaper fare classes and you pay for your bags.

That actually sounds like a super logical, customer friendly bag fee program that would be hard to argue with.

Of course, the IT/systems may be a bear to set something like this up, depending on current configurations. And I guess it's possible that WN knows more than me about this and will pursue some other option first without thinking of talking to me about it  

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-05-30 10:04:18 and read 9395 times.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 5):
That actually sounds like a super logical, customer friendly bag fee program that would be hard to argue with.

How is that customer friendly when you're screwing customers out of more money? That would completely blow up in WN's face.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-30 10:11:06 and read 9347 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):
and that figure is expected to grow.

How? FL is shrinking and going away.

The way I read it, the figure is expected to grow because it wasn't a full years revenue. Until WN figures out what to do about bag revenue, and before AirTran goes away completely, they will still continue to collect it.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: wnflyguy
Posted 2013-05-30 11:34:39 and read 9113 times.

WN needs a evolution from Bags fly free.
Baggage fees just like in Europe are here to stay.
What WN should do is make them reasonable like.
$5 for first Bag, $10 for second and $15 for the third.
Beyond 3 is $50 each.
But if you buy BS you get 3 Free.
AND if you pay online each checked bag is $5 up to 3 bags.
Per person.
By just adding $5 baggage fee WN would easily reach it ROIC and return to a growth
Model.
Eat crow now enjoy the pay off later.
Wnfg  

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: mcg
Posted 2013-05-30 11:36:45 and read 9108 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 3):
ersonally, I think those on Ding! Fares and Want to Get Away fares should have to pay $25/bag while the other fare buckets are still free. Would go hand-in-hand with the "no-show penalty".

Sounds like the Frontier model to me.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-05-30 11:42:41 and read 9071 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):
How is that customer friendly when you're screwing customers out of more money? That would completely blow up in WN's face.

WN can either charge for bags, or have the highest fares in the industry. It sounds like they are eager for customers to "prefer" them and give them top yields, aka top prices. But if not, then what they are saying really doesn't hold water over the long term.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2013-05-30 11:49:30 and read 9038 times.

As more and more airlines show millions and millions more in profit from such things like "bag fees" Southwest is going to have to do something. If not, they will have to share with stockholders specific metrics on how much they would lose by implementing some sort of fee. Or, they could come up with some other charge scheme that nobody has thought of.

Hard to believe the company can leave all those millions on the table forever without doing something without investors eventually pummeling the stock.

New slogan: Bags Fly Cheaper.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: JBAirwaysFan
Posted 2013-05-30 11:58:46 and read 9003 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 2):
How? FL is shrinking and going away.

Well, when you go from 0% on baggage to suddenly having a subsidiary that charges for checked baggage, it makes a difference.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-05-30 12:04:51 and read 8961 times.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 12):
Well, when you go from 0% on baggage to suddenly having a subsidiary that charges for checked baggage, it makes a difference.

He meant "how are the bag fees going to continue to go up if FL is going away?" Not how did they go from 0 to where they're at now

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-05-30 12:07:26 and read 8947 times.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 8):
What WN should do is make them reasonable like.
$5 for first Bag, $10 for second and $15 for the third.

The whole basis of supporters of WN charging for bags is that customers continue to travel on the legacy carriers regardless of how much they travel, so WN is only leaving money on the table, the incremental pax gained by not charging is irrelevant.
If we accept that premise, why would we assume that they will gain by changing less than the legacy carriers?

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-05-30 12:32:26 and read 8788 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 3):
Personally, I think those on Ding! Fares and Want to Get Away fares should have to pay $25/bag while the other fare buckets are still free. Would go hand-in-hand with the "no-show penalty".

This is why A.netters don't work at REAL airlines, or even real companies. The fee for bags train left the station for WN. To reverse course now would be a giant PR debacle. Ever hear of New Coke?

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 8):
WN needs a evolution from Bags fly free.
Baggage fees just like in Europe are here to stay.
What WN should do is make them reasonable like.
$5 for first Bag, $10 for second and $15 for the third.
Beyond 3 is $50 each.

Dude, what part of "Its too friggin late" do you guys not get???? You don't spend tens of millions on a Bags Fly Free campaign then reverse yourself. Maybe it might be better for WN to humiliate themselves and eat crow. But MBA students will be studying WN's bags debacle 50 years from now in case studies. WN will have to find other ways of increasing revenues.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
He meant "how are the bag fees going to continue to go up if FL is going away?" Not how did they go from 0 to where they're at now

Correct

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: flymd1976
Posted 2013-05-30 12:40:40 and read 8688 times.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 8):



I tell you what.....I really found those "Bags Fly Free" commercials of Southwest's to be quite comical. They really made Southwest's competitors look like they were nickle and diming customers with those bag fees. I can only imagine how airline like United, American, Delta, etc will respond if Southwest started to add bag fees (regardless of the price of those fees). Southwest has unfortunately painted themselves into a corner on this one and their competitions media response will be both hilarious and brutal is Southwest reverses course.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: MountainFlyer
Posted 2013-05-30 12:40:55 and read 8685 times.

Quoting Triple7Lr (Thread starter):
How does Southwest replace that revenue once fully integrated ???

WN's higher fares?   

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-05-30 12:42:59 and read 8659 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):
WN can either charge for bags, or have the highest fares in the industry

Really? Doesn't seem that way to me on just about every route they fly with ample competition. They're still cheaper than just about all the LAS-LAX carriers and I still get 2 free bags that the others want to charge me lots of $$$ for. Even their top tier fares are cheaper than just about all their competitors.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: AirlineCritic
Posted 2013-05-30 12:48:42 and read 8592 times.

The amount of criticism WN's chosen revenue model draws is amazing. There is no law that all businesses must slice and dice their pricing the same way. Some airlines charge for bags, others carry them free. Some airlines fly overall cheap and let their customers bear the cost of 100 km bus ride to town; others fly to the city airport. Some products are cheap but are a burden to maintain, others are expensive but care free.

Personally, I believe image means far more than specific income streams. What kind of airline does WN want to be, and how does it differentiate itself from others? Obviously, their strategy may evolve over time, perhaps even radically. Maybe there is a change in the works now. But there is no single, working model for profitable airline business. Or unprofitable... you can get to chapter 11 in so many ways... new aircraft, old aircraft, good service, bad service, package pricing, nickel and dime pricing...

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2013-05-30 13:01:59 and read 8467 times.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 5):
customer friendly bag fee program

Contradictio in adjecto?

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-05-30 13:05:08 and read 8429 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
This is why A.netters don't work at REAL airlines, or even real companies. The fee for bags train left the station for WN. To reverse course now would be a giant PR debacle. Ever hear of New Coke?

I agree as the merger progresses and FL continues to disappear so will the bags fees. WN made a huge deal and spent millions letting people across this country know that all bags fly free on WN. They made their position on baggage fees clear and really fought against AA, DL, UA, US and all the other carriers here in the U.S who are charging for bags. Everyone in this country knows that if you are flying on WN your bags are flying for free. So for them to all of a sudden reverse course would be a PR disaster and there would be consequences if WN changed course now. As long as FL exist WN can continue to enjoy the profits they are seeing from FL's baggage policy but once FL disappears those bag fees will be gone as well and WN will have to come up with another way to make up for that loss revenue.

It would be extremely hard for WN to back peddle out of this situation especially because they have staked part of their reputation on this one line "Bags Fly Free". WN can never take that back.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-05-30 13:13:25 and read 8357 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
This is why A.netters don't work at REAL airlines, or even real companies.

Real airlines 90% agree that bag fees are a must. WN is the sole one abstaining.

What you're saying about reputation... Yeah, it's true. WN gets some mileage out of its "renegade" persona although it is hard to quantify.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 18):
Really? Doesn't seem that way to me on just about every route they fly with ample competition. They're still cheaper than just about all the LAS-LAX carriers and I still get 2 free bags that the others want to charge me lots of $$$ for.

So do WN shareholders get to convert those good vibes into cash? How, higher load factor? (WN has lower load factors IIRC).

Not saying it isn't great for passengers. My honest hope is that customers would prefer WN in that situation, and pay higher fares. If not then WN's business model would have to be considered a failure.

[Edited 2013-05-30 13:15:59]

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: JHwk
Posted 2013-05-30 13:20:05 and read 8268 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):
WN can either charge for bags, or have the highest fares in the industry.

I've been finding more and more that they are charging a premium relative to United on the routes I fly. Presumably partly because they have a direct flight option, but it is enough of a dis-incentive that I don't give them my usual 10% of miles flown in a year lately.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: yellowtail
Posted 2013-05-30 13:22:25 and read 8245 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
This is why A.netters don't work at REAL airlines, or even real companies.

Em, many a.netters do. why do you think airlines scour these sites so closely...to see which employees are letting out secrets. and many of us consult for airlines.

Now there are many who also pretend like they do or think they know it all.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 21):
It would be extremely hard for WN to back peddle out of this situation especially because they have staked part of their reputation on this one line "Bags Fly Free".

Or they could charge for bags on international routes only.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-05-30 13:33:42 and read 8585 times.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 1):
The business case implicit in the whole campaign 'Bags fly free' is that profit from incremental ticket sales exceeds foregone baggage fees.

Thing is, it can't possibly. Estimates are that WN would earn between $300-$500M annually if they implemented even a modest $20 fee for a first and second bag. And that's pure profit. Based on the company's current profit margin from all operations, they'd have to nearly double the size of the company's operations to get that same extra $300-$500M in profit.

WN is literally leaving wheelbarrows full of money on the table all in the name of not backtracking on their ad campaign, and leaving investors - and employees - fuming in the process.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: panam330
Posted 2013-05-30 13:53:52 and read 8410 times.

I think going the JetBlue route (first bag free, any beyond costs the pax) would be a nice solution that wouldn't cause them to completely backtrack.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: BEG2IAH
Posted 2013-05-30 14:09:08 and read 8336 times.

The article says: "Government statistics released Tuesday show Southwest's revenue from baggage fees rose nearly fivefold to $144.5 million last year from 2011 - the biggest jump among the nation's 15 largest airlines."

I don't want to nitpick, but if you have a five-fold increase, then the increase is 400%, not 500%. If you grow something from 10 to 50 (=10*5, i.e., five-fold), then %change = (50-10)/10 = 4, or 400% in %s.

Similarly, if something doubles in size, it grew by 100% and it now makes 200% of the previous size (=100%).

I have a slow day at work. Sorry...  

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2013-05-30 14:10:56 and read 8295 times.

Southwest would not be the first airline to backtrack on a marketing position. And, realistically, where are their passangers going to go? To another airline that also charges? All it takes is another great marketing position to take its place.

Nothing is forever. Including marketing positions.

Bags Fly Cheaper on Southwest!

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-05-30 14:15:24 and read 8238 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 25):
Estimates are that WN would earn between $300-$500M annually if they implemented even a modest $20 fee for a first and second bag. And that's pure profit.

Does that estimate include the lower fares WN will have to charge to retain demand?

WN economically can't just start charging for bags without adjusting their fares. Then add a media egg on top of that? Doubtful that WN would be better off. WN is amazingly profitable compared to the legacies in a domestic-only comparison. There's no need or advantage for bag fees at this time.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: DLD9S
Posted 2013-05-30 14:25:15 and read 8145 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
So do WN shareholders get to convert those good vibes into cash? How, higher load factor? (WN has lower load factors IIRC).

WN management has been able to demonstrate to shareholders that they are able to deliver consistent profits for decades. Legacies have shown us consistent ways to have roller coaster profits and losses, and how to file Chapter 11.

I am not saying that bag fees should not come to WN, but I don't think they really need to take profitability lessons from anyone else in the industry. Sure, things change, but those at the Love HQ has shown us that they do know what they are doing.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: airliner371
Posted 2013-05-30 16:00:30 and read 7453 times.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 24):
Or they could charge for bags on international routes only.

That would be backwards of what would make sense for the passenger.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
Real airlines 90% agree that bag fees are a must. WN is the sole one abstaining.

B6 doesn't have a first bag fee too.

Quoting panam330 (Reply 26):

I think going the JetBlue route (first bag free, any beyond costs the pax) would be a nice solution that wouldn't cause them to completely backtrack.

If something happens, that is exactly what will. They won't go from 2 to no free bags.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-05-30 16:00:59 and read 7458 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 29):
WN economically can't just start charging for bags without adjusting their fares.

Incorrect. By not charging bag fees, they'd realize the benefit of a fare increase without actually implementing one. Keep in mind, when adjusting fares upward, it comes with a decrease in demand. Data from every fee-charging carrier shows there's no discernible book-away when implementing a bag fee, and in WN's case they could also keep it modest to align with their "we're better than the legacies" perception.

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 30):
WN management has been able to demonstrate to shareholders that they are able to deliver consistent profits for decades.

They've also demonstrated to shareholders that their stock price only goes sideways. If you look at a 5 year chart for LUV's performance, it's positively dismal when compared to a fee-charging company like ALK.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2013-05-30 16:10:03 and read 7417 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
Real airlines 90% agree that bag fees are a must. WN is the sole one abstaining.

"Real" airlines...    What does it take be considered a "real" airline? Having been through Ch. 11, often multiple times?

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: airliner371
Posted 2013-05-30 16:16:18 and read 7338 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 32):
By not charging bag fees, they'd realize the benefit of a fare increase without actually implementing one.

And without a visible decrease in fare, people are going to go to other airlines. There are a lot of factors in this, we don't have the numbers and quite simply can't validly say it would be good or bad. All I will say is that if WN thought it would benefit them, they would charge for bags, but they don't.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: Joeljack
Posted 2013-05-30 16:24:14 and read 7276 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 34):
And without a visible decrease in fare, people are going to go to other airlines. There are a lot of factors in this, we don't have the numbers and quite simply can't validly say it would be good or bad. All I will say is that if WN thought it would benefit them, they would charge for bags, but they don't.

This was true years ago but with almost all planes flying full these days, there is more demand than there are seats so even if WN charges for bags, in this day and age, it wouldn't have the affect on demand that it would have had 5-8 years ago when planes were not as full. I really doubt that fares would be affected much.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-05-30 16:31:23 and read 7239 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
what part of "Its too friggin late" do you guys not get???? You don't spend tens of millions on a Bags Fly Free campaign then reverse yourself

This is an innocent question, I'm not disagreeing outright, but how does this differ from Meals at Mealtimes?

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-05-30 16:36:36 and read 7198 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 34):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 32):By not charging bag fees, they'd realize the benefit of a fare increase without actually implementing one.
And without a visible decrease in fare, people are going to go to other airlines.

Please help me understand your logic, since in many cases WN's fares are currently equal to - if not higher than - their legacy competition. And again, legacy carriers experienced no discernible "book-away" when implementing bag fees, so I'm having a hard time seeing where you feel WN customers would defect to other carriers.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: airliner371
Posted 2013-05-30 16:45:28 and read 7136 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 37):
since in many cases WN's fares are currently equal to - if not higher than - their legacy competition.

WN is the cheapest option 60% of the time and 80% if you count bag fees.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 37):
legacy carriers experienced no discernible "book-away"

First off, legacies did this years ago now and as the last major airline to have free bags, people do fly them solely for bags fly free and without that some will say, "why should I fly Southwest?"

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-05-30 17:04:07 and read 6966 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 29):
WN economically can't just start charging for bags without adjusting their fares.

I guess we are too busy to look at the reverse, the legacy carriers who are charging bag fees have fares that are similar and in some instances the same as WN, usually they are not much lower, is anyone asking why?
If it is accepted that WN has been raising their fares to compensate for their lack of bag fees and other miscellaneous charges, why exactly are legacy carriers matching their fare increases, greed??

I suggest that WN launch a test phase of charging for bags, say next year for 3 months Jan-Mar-2014 WN will charge for all bags but at the same time will lower fares across the board by 20%, wonder what the effect would be on their traffic and the response by the others.
Hhhmmmmm

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: MSPNWA
Posted 2013-05-30 17:36:24 and read 6751 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 32):
Incorrect. By not charging bag fees, they'd realize the benefit of a fare increase without actually implementing one. Keep in mind, when adjusting fares upward, it comes with a decrease in demand. Data from every fee-charging carrier shows there's no discernible book-away when implementing a bag fee, and in WN's case they could also keep it modest to align with their "we're better than the legacies" perception.

It's simple supply and demand in a competitive market. A bag fee is in effect a fare increase. It's even more obvious to the consumer than taxes, since you have to manually pay for that bag every time. If WN suddenly charged for bag fees without a fare decrease, they will see a drop in demand as the true fare for many passengers has now risen. Way back when, legacies used bag fees in place of a fare increase. They knew the effect on things too. Where that equilibrium lies for airlines is the question.

If an estimate of increased revenue due to bag fees does not include an offsetting drop in fares in the equation, it lacks even basic knowledge of economic theory and is essentially useless for decision-making purposes.

Quoting par13del (Reply 39):
I guess we are too busy to look at the reverse, the legacy carriers who are charging bag fees have fares that are similar and in some instances the same as WN, usually they are not much lower, is anyone asking why?
If it is accepted that WN has been raising their fares to compensate for their lack of bag fees and other miscellaneous charges, why exactly are legacy carriers matching their fare increases, greed??

WN is still often as, or more, inexpensive than the legacies, particularly when bag fees are included. They've had to raise fares. And it's no surprise. Costs like fuel have risen greatly in the past decade, and their employees aren't getting any less expensive either. Why do the legacies follow WN? Because they're the ones that really need the fare increase. Domestic operations for them is a trouble area. They're showing the supply and demand formula because if they increase fares on their own, customers are driven away. WN holds a lot of pricing power.

WN still produces solid profits. And really they continue to embarrass the legacies in how they do it. WN does it with generally lower airfares, fewer fees, nearly all domestic operations, and nearly all mainline pay scale employees. I really don't know how WN does it. On paper the legacies have huge advantages in key areas and still can't compete well in the same arena as WN.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-05-30 17:57:51 and read 6582 times.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 40):
If an estimate of increased revenue due to bag fees does not include an offsetting drop in fares in the equation, it lacks even basic knowledge of economic theory and is essentially useless for decision-making purposes.

On the theory level, crucially, pax w/ no bags were happy paying full fare before. It wasn't seen as a surcharge, although you are saying fares were higher then. No one perceived it that way, because they could not know future bag fees.

Now with unbundling, pax who previously got a free gift -- perhaps worth $50 of "utility" to them -- now must pay $35. That is the only change we need to talk about.

Yes, your treatment isn't wrong, and you could frame everything the way you did. But you are presuming zero-profit, in order to force fares down. It hasn't worked out that way yet (Spirit growing huge). Maybe that will happen in time.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-05-30 18:45:38 and read 6274 times.

Many of you are just looking at it from a bottom line aspect, but you also need to look at it from a customer aspect. WN kind of made a promise (not an actual real promise) but through their marketing they have made a promise to their customer that bags fly free. How would they go about preparing their customer some who left airlines like UA, AA, DL years ago do to the baggage fees, how would WN tell them we now are charging bag fees as well? The most important form of advertising that can't be bought or purchased is WORD OF MOUTH, whether you are actually talking or taking to social media do discount the effect word of mouth has on people. If WN goes back on their word their will be a price that has to be paid. The moment a customer is asked to pay for their bag at check-in for a WN flight they will take to social media or call their friends and family and jut start bashing WN and you know why because there is no "politically correct" way for WN to advertise to their customers that bags no longer fly free. WN wouldn't run commercials on national TV, they wouldn't take out ads in all the major news papers across the country, they wouldn't post it on their facebook or twitter account. There is not acceptable form of media that WN could use to get the message out that passengers now have to pay for bags. Of course there would be a small section on their webpage that tell customers the charge for bags but lets be realistic most customers would miss or look over that section so most customer would find out at the check in counter and they would be upset with WN and the WN bashing would start.

And lets not talk about the number of gate checked bags WN customer service agents would have to deal with and all those customers who get mad at you because the overhead bins are full and take it personal because you tell them they have to check their bags. The whole situation would be a nightmare for WN and its employees and passengers.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-05-30 18:50:10 and read 6241 times.

The bag fee folks still don't get it or accept it. The Bag Fee Boat has sailed. It's too late. In fact reversing themselves wound and should result in top mgmt being fired.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-05-30 18:53:55 and read 6212 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 42):

You're correct. The bean counters don't get it.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: trex8
Posted 2013-05-30 18:59:54 and read 6206 times.

I live 1 hour from Midway and 30 min from ORD, UA fares are nearly always the same or within a few bucks of WN and more often than not WN flights a little more. If I know there is almost no chance of my needing to change the flight I fly UA from ORD, if I may have to change the flight I fly WN. The bag fee issue is a non issue for me. I usually travel light or one bag and 25 bucks isn't going to kill me either way but the 150 buck change reservation fee will!

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: UPNYGuy
Posted 2013-05-30 19:19:55 and read 6035 times.

Quoting JHwk (Reply 23):

I've been finding more and more that they are charging a premium relative to United on the routes I fly. Presumably partly because they have a direct flight option, but it is enough of a dis-incentive that I don't give them my usual 10% of miles flown in a year lately.


Same here in ALB. SW is usually right in line with the other legacies, if not more.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-05-30 19:33:08 and read 5988 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 38):
WN is the cheapest option 60% of the time and 80% if you count bag fees.

I just checked flights PDX-LAX for about three weeks from now. To depart after a day at the office, it's $174 one-way on AS or UA or $119 on VX, all nonstop. Connections on DL via SLC or on UA via SFO are $130 plus bags, or on WN for $190 via OAK with free bags.

That's $60 to get free bags on WN which I may or may not use comparing a like-for-like schedule. $71 more than VX, $16 more than AS or UA, comparing a connection to nonstops.

Leaving later in the evening, the price dips to $121 on WN via OAK and $124 on AS nonstop.

If I could make the VX nonstop flight, I'd go with them. If I couldn't, I'd go with the later nonstop on AS, even if I had to pay for a bag.

People look at more than just the headline price. We look at the convenience of the schedule and aircraft as well. Perhaps even the FF plan. I would give up a small difference in price to check a bag in return for a nonstop.

What I wouldn't do is consider it a slap in the face if WN introduced a fee for bags. It would simply be another data point to think about when picking a flight. Hopefully though, they'd drop the "free bags surcharge" worked into their fares, if they wanted my business.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-05-30 20:00:19 and read 5805 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 38):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 37):since in many cases WN's fares are currently equal to - if not higher than - their legacy competition.
WN is the cheapest option 60% of the time and 80% if you count bag fees.

Care to cite a source validating your percentages, or were those simply made up by you?

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 40):
A bag fee is in effect a fare increase.

Customers don't see it that way though; they tend to look at the fare only, hence the reason legacy carriers experienced no discernible "book away" toward the non-fee carriers when they began implementing them. It's also the reason AS eventually began charging them, because they weren't realizing any "goodwill bookings" from customers booking away from fee-charging carriers and the net effect was they were simply depriving themselves of revenue their competitors were enjoying.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-05-30 20:03:42 and read 5788 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 42):
Many of you are just looking at it from a bottom line aspect, but you also need to look at it from a customer aspect. WN kind of made a promise (not an actual real promise) but through their marketing they have made a promise to their customer that bags fly free. How would they go about preparing their customer some who left airlines like UA, AA, DL years ago do to the baggage fees, how would WN tell them we now are charging bag fees as well?

Just off the top of my head, WN could charge a $15.00 first-bag fee and advertise themselves as having the lowest bag fees of any air carrier. And in case you haven't noticed, they've already begun quietly shelving the prominent "Bags Fly Free" nationwide campaign.

Fact of the matter is that if WN began charging a bag fee, they'd get some minor backlash and negative feedback, but the vast majority of their customers would keep right on flying them and not bat an eye.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: airliner371
Posted 2013-05-30 20:10:42 and read 5738 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 47):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 48):
Care to cite a source validating your percentages, or were those simply made up by you?

Excuse me, I did mistake the numbers slightly but here is the source. Southwest is cheapest 40% of the time, not overwhelming majority but still majority. When first bag fee is considered, they are cheapest 60% of the time and with 2 bags, they are cheapest and overwhelming 88% of the time.

http://www.stltoday.com/business/loc...0-824d-53de-b118-f5e94cf49eaa.html

EA CO AS, care not to cop an attitude, theres no reason for it.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: surfandsnow
Posted 2013-05-30 20:30:26 and read 5634 times.

Businesses across all industries have evolved over time, gradually instituting charges for things that were traditionally regarded as free/complementary. American public uproar over checked baggage has largely subsided, and Kelly himself admits that the airline "left the door open for bag fees." WN has been rapidly changing its business model for the past 10 years, and the acquisition of FL only further accelerated this process. It is becoming ever more clear that there are no sacred cow components to the classic/pre-2000s WN business model. Now that WN has reaped baggage fee revenue via its FL subsidiary, it will be very hard for them to make up for that entire revenue stream elsewhere. B6 is the next most generous competitor (for the average non-loyal flier), offering 1 free checked bag and $40 for the second checked bag. Even if WN began charging $20 for second checked bags, it could drastically boost the bottom line without causing a costly public backlash. WN would still be the generous option for the average domestic traveler..

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-30 21:14:30 and read 5353 times.

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 30):
Sure, things change, but those at the Love HQ has shown us that they do know what they are doing.

I suppose those magnanimous people at "Love HQ" have figured a way to give back that money that they're taking in from FL's bag fees, eh?  
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 40):
I really don't know how WN does it.

Smoke & mirrors.....smoke & mirrors

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: rwy04lga
Posted 2013-05-30 22:46:52 and read 5010 times.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 19):
Some airlines charge for bags, others carry them free.

No airline carries bags for free. Those that do not charge passengers separate fees for bags simply include the cost of bag carriage in the airfare. The 'bags fly free' claim is misleading...just like 'FREE shipping', where the cost of shipping is included in the price charged for the item. More accurate would be '2 bags included in fare!' (or however many).

NOTHING is 'free', but WN has lots of people believing that their bags fly free. Like the proverbial sheep...baaa.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: vegas005
Posted 2013-05-30 23:20:54 and read 4892 times.

The loopholes in the Federal Excise Tax laws need to be closed so that the full cost to fly is in the ticket price. Allowing the airlines to skirt the tax is confusing to the consumer.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: Deltal1011man
Posted 2013-05-30 23:45:15 and read 4851 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):
That would completely blow up in WN's face.

How? what are people going to do about it?

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
You don't spend tens of millions on a Bags Fly Free campaign then reverse yourself.

Why? what are people going to do? walk? WN is the last one IIRC. Unless you expect a ton of people to sign up for DL's AMEX so they get the first bag free(and maybe that will happen and those STUPID ads on TV will go away) It won't mean jack. People why complain, WN will be a little red faced and that will just be it.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
Ever hear of New Coke?

not comparable.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 25):

Thing is, it can't possibly. Estimates are that WN would earn between $300-$500M annually if they implemented even a modest $20 fee for a first and second bag. And that's pure profit. Based on the company's current profit margin from all operations, they'd have to nearly double the size of the company's operations to get that same extra $300-$500M in profit.

this

Quoting panam330 (Reply 26):

this is the way, or like a band-aid.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 28):
Southwest would not be the first airline to backtrack on a marketing position. And, realistically, where are their passangers going to go? To another airline that also charges? All it takes is another great marketing position to take its place.

this. Walking or drive is the only free bag choice.

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 30):
WN management has been able to demonstrate to shareholders that they are able to deliver consistent profits for decades. Legacies have shown us consistent ways to have roller coaster profits and losses, and how to file Chapter 11.

lol. Is that like the tagline now? Keep worrying about that, I'll base my investments off of now. See who wins.

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 30):
Sure, things change, but those at the Love HQ has shown us that they do know what they are doing.

Uh, those guys in Atlanta and Seattle are doing a pretty good job. IIRC for Delta bag fees and such made 500M+....that money WN is leaving on the table. As an investor, I would be moving to fire the CEO.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 32):

Incorrect. By not charging bag fees, they'd realize the benefit of a fare increase without actually implementing one. Keep in mind, when adjusting fares upward, it comes with a decrease in demand. Data from every fee-charging carrier shows there's no discernible book-away when implementing a bag fee, and in WN's case they could also keep it modest to align with their "we're better than the legacies" perception.

right. This si the thing, no one is going to leave.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 33):
What does it take be considered a "real" airline? Having been through Ch. 11, often multiple times?

hahaha that was so funny. My gosh, I may tell that one 50 years from now. hahaha

wait
hahaha
hahaha

 
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 38):
"why should I fly Southwest?"

You say they are cheaper 60% of the time without bags.....that'll do pig

Quoting jayunited (Reply 42):
Many of you are just looking at it from a bottom line aspect,

welcome to the airline industry. The faster you realize they are a company, not public transportation the better off you will be.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 42):
but you also need to look at it from a customer aspect.

in that case.....I want 747s with lie flats on every route. 5 star meals, limo picking me up at my house, the best lounges etc. all for 10 bucks one way.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-05-31 00:09:30 and read 4771 times.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 38):
people do fly them solely for bags fly free and without that some will say, "why should I fly Southwest?"

Frequency, and ease-of-use compared to many of their competitors for starters. In many cases they offer unique nonstop city pairs that others do not, so there's another advantage. And of course some folks just RAVE about their service. While price is a big driver it's not always the only one.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 50):
Excuse me, I did mistake the numbers slightly but here is the source.

You quoted WN as being cheapest 60% of the time and the article said 40% - no offense, but is that really a "slight" error?

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 50):
Southwest is cheapest 40% of the time, not overwhelming majority but still majority.

Which means 60% of the time, their competitors are cheaper. Again, no offense intended, but precisely how does 40% constitute a majority?

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 50):
When first bag fee is considered, they are cheapest 60% of the time and with 2 bags, they are cheapest and overwhelming 88% of the time.

Thank you for the stats and the source; it's appreciated. For non-elite level customers (since most airlines waive bag fees for elites) then WN may be the best choice, but that's not clearly not always the case.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 50):
EA CO AS, care not to cop an attitude, theres no reason for it.

No attitude was intended; I was simply asking for a source since those numbers sounded off (and obviously were, by your own admission).

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 53):
No airline carries bags for free... More accurate would be '2 bags included in fare!'

  

Look, WN offers a great product and while it's not for everyone, it works for a huge number of travelers. But the fact of the matter is at one point every major carrier offered free bags and thanks to unbundling, customers have the ability to "pay for what they want" instead of having the cost of carrying 1 or 2 bags built into their ticket price.

Another fact is that WN could find a way to follow suit and earn the hundreds of millions they're leaving on the table by implementing a modest bag fee while still providing excellent value to the customer, such as charging less than anyone else or attaching a delivery timeframe guarantee like AS does (with the highest-paid rampers in the industry, that shouldn't be an issue!). It would also benefit their shareholders (many of whom are employees!) as their stock prices would be less likely to remain stagnant.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-05-31 03:39:15 and read 4386 times.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 55):

Your attitude shows you have no clue what WNs largest (or second largest asset is). Using your logic since flights on everyone are so full airline should have the cheapest customer service possible. After all where would everyone go!
Your entire attitude, "What will people do about it" shows a disdain for customers that is an anathema to WN culture. But I guess you think that part of their business model should change too.

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 51):

I'd be curious to know how much B6 gets in bag fees. I don't think you can compare B6 to WN. B6 probably gets the highest percentage of revenue from international than any other airline ( maybe Spirit does more). But B6 flys lots of VFR markets that have pax with multiple bags. WN as a 99% domestic airline would not receive much windfall from charging for a second bag.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-05-31 05:54:41 and read 3980 times.

I love how some of the anti-WN people over here take to personal attacks on members of the forum in order to justify why WN is leaving money on the table?

Has it occurred to some of you that maybe this isn't entirely about $$ to WN? If it was all about that, they would have gone the way of NK before NK even went there. Maybe WN feels like their customers are more than just flying wallets to extract more $$ from? Maybe they actually have a sense of decency in how they treat their customers, something a great deal of the other US airlines lost somewhere between corporate mismanagement, Chapter 11, and figuring out new and pathetic ways of taking another dollar from their customers?

WN may not be the same WN that they were 10 years ago as far as airports, flights, etc, but they still are the same WN who has a corporate mentality of treating their passengers like people!

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-05-31 07:41:57 and read 3635 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 58):
Has it occurred to some of you that maybe this isn't entirely about $$ to WN? If it was all about that, they would have gone the way of NK before NK even went there. Maybe WN feels like their customers are more than just flying wallets to extract more $$ from? Maybe they actually have a sense of decency in how they treat their customers, something a great deal of the other US airlines lost somewhere between corporate mismanagement, Chapter 11, and figuring out new and pathetic ways of taking another dollar from their customers?

In that case, I expect that WN will start refunding that bag fee money they've made from FL, any day now. After all, if it's not about the dollars, why keep it?

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 58):
WN may not be the same WN that they were 10 years ago as far as airports, flights, etc, but they still are the same WN who has a corporate mentality of treating their passengers like people!

What airline IS the same as they were 10 years ago?

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-05-31 08:39:58 and read 3530 times.

Why then hasn't WN started charging bag fees? Why is WN allowing customers who book a flight on WN website but are actually flying on FL why are they not required to pay bag fees? Every where you look WN is offering FL customers a way to escape baggage fees if these fees were so important to WN and if WN absolutely needed the revenue from the baggage fees why are they giving FL customers opportunities to avoid those bag fees? If ever there was a time for WN to institute baggage fees that time would be now while the merger is still in progress you don't wait till after the merger is complete. Not only are WN customers not paying baggage fees but now they are are offering FL customers a escape from bag fees as well. So while the merger is progressing FL passengers if they book thru WN don't have to pay but wait once the merger has been complete sorry all passengers now have to pay bag fees I'm sorry but that is ridiculous.

It makes no sense at all to give FL passengers a reprieve only to come back in a year or so and slap them in the face with bag fees and say sorry we were just kidding about not charging bag fees. If WN is going to charge bag fees in the future then what they should be doing is making sure that ALL FL passengers continue to pay the bag fees they already are use to paying not giving those passengers a way to escape those bag fees by booking on WN website.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: mcg
Posted 2013-05-31 09:32:01 and read 3457 times.

Bags Fly Free is one of the most successful marketing campaigns in history. In three words it defines why Southwest is different and better than other airlines and tells the customer why Southwest is a better value than the competition. There is no question it drives incremental passenger volume and yield, but there realistically there is no way to measure this benefit. Bags Fly Free has generated priceless good will among Southwest's customers. It would be a profound mistake for Southwest to implement a bag fee.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-05-31 09:34:05 and read 3447 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 60):
slap them in the face with bag fees and say sorry we were just kidding about not charging bag fees

How is charging for luggage a 'slap in the face'? It's simply a marketing gimmick. People have to remember that corporations aren't in a personal relationship with them. Companies are best viewed as bricks. The brick will never love you, and you shouldn't love the brick.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-05-31 12:32:16 and read 3325 times.

I personally like bag fees. I always carry on (I don't see the appeal in checking bags but to each's own,) so if I went on WN with bag fees built in, I'd be spending money in vain.

I do see a lot of passion against WN not charging for bags which I find a little odd (most is just criticism but some people get a little crazy about it,) but to say WN will NEVER charge for bags is pretty uncertain. Sure it would be embarrassing, they'd probably lose some pax, maybe they'd make more money or maybe they won't, but I don't see them spiraling downward or CEOs getting fired... that's just crazy talk

And it's just my opinion, but I personally think if WN was so against bag fees and being nice to the customer and all, they would've stopped FL's bag fees. Yeah I know they are different operations, yadaya, that's just what it looks like to me

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-05-31 14:27:32 and read 3233 times.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 63):
I do see a lot of passion against WN not charging for bags which I find a little odd

I dont think it is odd for some people to realize that Bags Fly Free was a major marketing campaign and that going back on it would be extremely damaging to WN's brand.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: DeltaMD90
Posted 2013-05-31 22:30:10 and read 3041 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 64):
I dont think it is odd for some people to realize that Bags Fly Free was a major marketing campaign and that going back on it would be extremely damaging to WN's brand.

I meant the opposite of what you were saying, my apologies for the wording. I meant I found it odd that some people appear so offended that WN doesn't charge bag fees. It's beyond the "I disagree with what WN is doing," they get so passionate about it for some reason. Not everybody, but a few do  

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-06-01 02:35:31 and read 2969 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 64):
Bags Fly Free was a major marketing campaign and that going back on it would be extremely damaging to WN's brand.

A modified, yet similar campaign could easily be "Bags Fly Cheap" instead. Again, I'm not knocking WN; all I'm saying is that I'm surprised their BOD hasn't yet caved to shareholder sentiment and finally directed the executives to start finding a way to collect a first bag fee while still providing value to the customer, i.e. a $10 or $15 bag fee and/or a defined time-to-carousel guarantee.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-06-01 03:04:53 and read 2953 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 66):
r BOD hasn't yet caved to shareholder sentiment

Who says a majority of their shareholders WANT them to institute bag fees?

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-06-01 03:12:18 and read 2950 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 67):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 66):r BOD hasn't yet caved to shareholder sentiment
Who says a majority of their shareholders WANT them to institute bag fees?

I can't speak for all of them obviously, but the many I know - a good percentage of which are also employees - desperately want WN to implement them. And from what I'm told it routinely comes up at annual shareholder meetings.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-06-01 03:35:45 and read 2930 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 68):

I can't speak for all of them obviously, but the many I know - a good percentage of which are also employees - desperately want WN to implement them. And from what I'm told it routinely comes up at annual shareholder meetings.

Well, until I see minutes from a shareholder meeting that says otherwise, call me skeptical.

I know of quite a few shareholders who are adamantly opposed to WN instituting baggage fees.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2013-06-01 04:12:41 and read 2888 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 64):
I dont think it is odd for some people to realize that Bags Fly Free was a major marketing campaign and that going back on it would be extremely damaging to WN's brand.

One other airline went out of their way to differentiate themselves from others with a major advertising campaign. American Airlines More Room Through Coach (MRTC).

AA realised after about five years that although passengers loved the perk, they were not willing to pay more for the comfort. It was dropped, and the PR fallout was huge, but AA got over it.

WN has two issues with free bags - 1 - The revenue loss, and 2 the cost of carrying those bags - from fuel, to the cost of handling those bags - which needs to include the staff, IT and security scanning charges. They also run the risk of losing the bags.

Ryanair has demonstrated that they can alter peoples flying habits through charging for bags - people carry less, and the airline saves more.

American flyers seem to travel with massive bags - far larger than any other nation i would wager (maybe except for Nigeria). The weight alone must be costing the airlines a fortune in fuel.

Perhaps WN could only give 30lbs (15kg free), and either alter the flying habits of a nation or rake in a fortune in excess baggage charges. In that way - they get to charge baggage charges, yet still have free bags..

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-06-01 06:29:22 and read 2816 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 70):

American flyers seem to travel with massive bags - far larger than any other nation i would wager (maybe except for Nigeria). The weight alone must be costing the airlines a fortune in fuel.

You must not be traveling on the European mainland much  

I've seen waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more bulky baggage over here than in the states.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-06-01 08:17:13 and read 2740 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 69):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 68):
I can't speak for all of them obviously, but the many I know - a good percentage of which are also employees - desperately want WN to implement them. And from what I'm told it routinely comes up at annual shareholder meetings.

Well, until I see minutes from a shareholder meeting that says otherwise, call me skeptical.

No disrespect intended, but I have a feeling even at that point you'd remain skeptical.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: hohd
Posted 2013-06-01 08:18:07 and read 2738 times.

Quoting panam330 (Reply 26):

I agree that JetBlue route is fair, one bag free, most passengers rarely book more than 1 bag for domestic routes. They can have one bag free for the lowest fares and have two bags free for all other fares, plus credit card holders, A1 list members and their travel companions and senior citizens. I am sure not many would balk at this.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: TVNWZ
Posted 2013-06-01 10:18:46 and read 2652 times.

Quoting mcg (Reply 61):
Bags Fly Free is one of the most successful marketing campaigns in history.

I hate superlatives because they are mostly wrong. Successful? Yes. In history? Probably not.

Quoting mcg (Reply 61):
In three words it defines why Southwest is different and better than other airlines and tells the customer why Southwest is a better value than the competition

Only if you check a bag.

Quoting mcg (Reply 61):
There is no question it drives incremental passenger volume and yield

Only if you are going to check a bag.

Quoting mcg (Reply 61):
but there realistically there is no way to measure this benefit.

Yes there is. That is why marketing measurment companies exist. There are dozens of ways to measure it.

Quoting mcg (Reply 61):
Bags Fly Free has generated priceless good will among Southwest's customers

Priceless? Doubtful. Goodwill? Yes. But, how much the baggage checking crowd is willing to accept a small fee is the question.

Quoting mcg (Reply 61):
It would be a profound mistake for Southwest to implement a bag fee.

There may be some short term pain. But, even my daughter sees it for what it really is. She was comparing prices on a trip and Southwest was higher by about $50. Then she said to me, "I get it dad. They just make the bag fee part of the price." Dad is proud.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: sphealey
Posted 2013-06-01 10:23:39 and read 2641 times.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 11):
As more and more airlines show millions and millions more in profit from such things like "bag fees" Southwest is going to have to do something. If not, they will have to share with stockholders specific metrics on how much they would lose by implementing some sort of fee. Or, they could come up with some other charge scheme that nobody has thought of.

Hard to believe the company can leave all those millions on the table forever without doing something without investors eventually pummeling the stock.

I find it interesting how many people are in favor of robust competition - Schumpeterian capitalism as it were with lots of brutal but fruitful creative destruction - until a competitor comes along that does something outside of an accepted norm, keeps doing that consistently in the face of industry social pressure to stop, and generally makes good money at it. Then the boundary maintenance really kicks into gear, the benefits of diverse competitive markets are thrown aside, and the calls for elimination of the outrider grow strong. Bit of a comment on human nature IMHO.

sPh

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-06-01 11:23:09 and read 2591 times.

Quoting sphealey (Reply 75):
I find it interesting how many people are in favor of robust competition - Schumpeterian capitalism as it were with lots of brutal but fruitful creative destruction - until a competitor comes along that does something outside of an accepted norm, keeps doing that consistently in the face of industry social pressure to stop, and generally makes good money at it. Then the boundary maintenance really kicks into gear, the benefits of diverse competitive markets are thrown aside, and the calls for elimination of the outrider grow strong. Bit of a comment on human nature IMHO.

sPh

Welcome to my RR.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-06-01 11:36:32 and read 2594 times.

Quoting mayor (Reply 59):
In that case, I expect that WN will start refunding that bag fee money they've made from FL, any day now. After all, if it's not about the dollars, why keep it?

Booked through Southwest.com and look - No bag fees! FL operated flights have actually seen increased bookings I believe since they've been able to be booked through Southwest.com - which handles the vast majority of all bookings.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 63):
I personally like bag fees. I always carry on (I don't see the appeal in checking bags but to each's own,) so if I went on WN with bag fees built in, I'd be spending money in vain.

I would only welcome bag fees if they threw down the hammer and forced people to stick to the 10x16x24 carry on bag limit. If people want to take on larger, if they don't want to check it, then they are required to buy Early Bird or a carry on bag fee for being bin hogs.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 66):
Again, I'm not knocking WN; all I'm saying is that I'm surprised their BOD hasn't yet caved to shareholder sentiment and finally directed the executives to start finding a way to collect a first bag fee while still providing value to the customer, i.e. a $10 or $15 bag fee and/or a defined time-to-carousel guarantee.

My initial response to this was going to be...

The company is meeting or exceeding its goal to hit 15% ROI which is what the shareholders want. The only ones that I have ever heard screaming for bag fees are ground crews at the stations.

Then I read this...

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 68):
I can't speak for all of them obviously, but the many I know - a good percentage of which are also employees - desperately want WN to implement them. And from what I'm told it routinely comes up at annual shareholder meetings.

Interesting how things reveal themselves. Probably the biggest proponent of bag fees are those that are in positions to lift hundreds of them per day. I feel for them and the related OJI and bodily stresses that can come from deal with so many bags...but that's the job they signed up for. A better compromise would probably be lowering bag weight to 35 or 40lbs and charge excess fees for those above them.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-06-01 12:42:16 and read 2549 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 77):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 68):
I can't speak for all of them obviously, but the many I know - a good percentage of which are also employees - desperately want WN to implement them. And from what I'm told it routinely comes up at annual shareholder meetings.

Interesting how things reveal themselves. Probably the biggest proponent of bag fees are those that are in positions to lift hundreds of them per day. I feel for them and the related OJI and bodily stresses that can come from deal with so many bags...but that's the job they signed up for.

Actually the majority of the WN employees I know are either in reservations or are pilots, and neither group would be in the position to lift even one customer's bag per day, let alone hundreds. These are folks who just want to see their company exceed their ROIC goals and also raise the stock price along the way, since they're all stockholders as well.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-06-01 13:25:56 and read 2507 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 78):
Actually the majority of the WN employees I know are either in reservations or are pilots, and neither group would be in the position to lift even one customer's bag per day, let alone hundreds. These are folks who just want to see their company exceed their ROIC goals and also raise the stock price along the way, since they're all stockholders as well.

Interesting that you say the WN employees that you know are all in groups that have no interaction with the customer at the point when the customer is checking in their bags. Reservation agents only speak to people over the phone and pilots interact with customers after the checking process has been completed. I want to know how WN customer service agents feel about this especially those who work the check-in counters every day because those are the employees who will in directly impacted by this change and when customers don't know about a change in policy they can become very boisterous. And its not about the money because the customer has the money to pay for the bags it will be about the fact that they did not know that WN is now charging for bags and that goes back to a previous post i made on this thread stating that WN will not advertise publicly that they are now charging for bags except on small area on their website, leaving most customers in the dark until they get to the airport.

So ask the customer service agents how they feel about bag fees ask the flight attendants who would have to tell customers over head bins are full all roller boards must be check (this is do to the fact that people will now be carrying more bags onto the plane to avoid the fees) and you already know there will be at least one person every flight who feels like they can make their carry on fit into the over head bin and will argue with the FA just to let them try. OR lets ask the gate agents how they feel abut WN charging for bags because now everybody would be rushing to get onboard the aircraft all at the same time just like they do at all the other legacies just to make sure they can put their carry-ons in the overhead bins. These are the employees who will be directly effect by this change talk to them and get their input as well because something tell me that after they get cursed out a few times in one day, have a customer get so close to their face while yelling at them so loudly that you can smell their disgusting breath or feel the spit coming out of their mouth while they speak, ask the people who will have to deal directly with customers who will feel like WN has lied to them their position on bag , something tells me you might get a slightly different answer than the one you are getting from your pilot friends. And in the first few days or weeks of this change in policy how long do you think that WN employees who are directly effect by this change will be able to continue to give the friendly customer service with a smile on their face that WN is known for when they face angry passenger after angry passenger.

If WN does decide to start charging for bags (in my opinion) they MUST launch another major national ad campaign TV,print, social media and what ever other outlets there are WN must get the word out to everyone that bags no longer fly free. Anything less that complete transparency about their reversal on this policy who equate to WN setting up their customer service agents for failure because their will be a LOT of upset passengers at check-in counter all across this country.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: AADC10
Posted 2013-06-01 13:38:46 and read 2488 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 6):
How is that customer friendly when you're screwing customers out of more money? That could completely blow up in WN's face.
Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 8):
WN needs a evolution from Bags fly free.

All of the pressure to add baggage fees is coming from institutional shareholders. Management is resisting because it is a powerful promotional tool for WN's type of passengers and they believe that adding the fees will hurt them overall. Institutional investors look at all of the cash bag fees are generating and will take the short turn gain and not worry about the long term damage.

MBAs and management consultants are masters at taking a good business and destroying it to "unlock shareholder value" or short term cash. They will keep piling on the pressure on WN management to be just like all of the other airlines. One of the greatest strengths of Herb Kelleher (and Gordon Bethune at CO) was to resist conventional wisdom and short sighted cash grabs. Apple's greatest success came when Steve Jobs ignored the demands of Wall Street because he was pissed off at the suits that ousted him earlier. I can only hope that Gary Kelly has at least enough of the moxy to preserve what makes Southwest special, particularly in light of their now less competitive fares.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-06-01 13:45:22 and read 2473 times.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 70):

Giving AA and Ryanair as examples of two airline WN should follow isn't going to win you an argument.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 66):

It isn't shareholders who are demanding a bag fee, its Wall Street Analysts.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-06-01 14:05:24 and read 2455 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 79):
Interesting that you say the WN employees that you know are all in groups that have no interaction with the customer at the point when the customer is checking in their bags. Reservation agents only speak to people over the phone

And who do you think customers call when they want to complain? Hmm?

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-06-01 14:06:02 and read 2452 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
Dude, what part of "Its too friggin late" do you guys not get???? You don't spend tens of millions on a Bags Fly Free campaign then reverse yourself. Maybe it might be better for WN to humiliate themselves and eat crow. But MBA students will be studying WN's bags debacle 50 years from now in case studies. WN will have to find other ways of increasing revenues.

If we are talking about relatively modest baggage fees - how about stealthily increasing the fare in a couple of incremental steps and offering a 5 USD or 10 USD discount for passengers who will not check bags? To some extent, it is a question of marketing the change and keeping the bags fly free mantra.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-06-01 14:23:54 and read 2431 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 83):

You don't think people would notice that?

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-06-01 14:51:27 and read 2400 times.

Well, airline fares increase over time. I am not talking about adding 10 USD to all fares one sunday night and offering a 10 USD discount for "no bags checked" starting the next day, but a more elaborate approach. First bring up your fares in a couple of incremental steps and at one point, introduce a discount for no bags checked ("Not only do bags fly free - if you don't bring them, you fly even cheaper") and then keep increasing the fares slightly more than dictated by your costs until you earn as much as before from those who don't check bags and a de facto baggage fee from those who do check bags.

Quite honestly, over here in Europe Ryanair keeps telling us that they do not have fuel surcharges etc. but in reality their average price tag for a ticket has gone up as much as the oil price has gone up. A couple of people call bs on this, but most don't understand or don't care. Ryanair is still the market leader in Europe despite insulting the intelligence of more intelligennt observers again and again. It is not different from the price of a pack cereal not increasing over the years - but the content of the pack shrinking again and again. Price pretty much is an illusion that can be created.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: Raventech
Posted 2013-06-01 15:02:08 and read 2377 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 85):
Well, airline fares increase over time. I am not talking about adding 10 USD to all fares one sunday night and offering a 10 USD discount for "no bags checked" starting the next day, but a more elaborate approach. First bring up your fares in a couple of incremental steps and at one point, introduce a discount for no bags checked ("Not only do bags fly free - if you don't bring them, you fly even cheaper") and then keep increasing the fares slightly more than dictated by your costs until you earn as much as before from those who don't check bags and a de facto baggage fee from those who do check bags.

And everyone and their mom will see it for what it is and will call them out on it. If that happens then IMO that will blow up worse PR wise than just coming out and saying we're charging for bags.

Realistically most (if not nearly all) of the money that they would get is already being collected. The only difference is that its not a separate item on their income, its just lumped in with normal fare revenue instead of a separate item.

[Edited 2013-06-01 15:04:31]

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-06-01 15:18:46 and read 2354 times.

Every week I can watch a TV show where producers of consumer goods are named and shamed for stealthy price hikes - by putting two diapers less in the box, blowing more air in a bag of potato chips, decreasing the size of a can, decreasing the percentage of the most costly ingredient. Hardly anybody ever walks away from them. People might be annoyed for a minute or two, but if the overall package is still okay, they don't mind. The same is true for airlines - I cannot remember how often I have no seen reports on Ryanair on TV where Ryanair is blamed for all kinds of dirty tricks to create the image of being cheap. They still had 70m + passengers last year.

I am all for consumer empowerment and sensible choices, but realistically the vast majority of customers is just a bunch of lemmings.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: aerokiwi
Posted 2013-06-01 17:20:51 and read 2284 times.

I fly to the US for work and holidays about twice a year, usually visiting about 4-5 destinations on each 2-3 week trip. Since pricing and schedules between the carriers on theroutes I fly appear to be largely the same, I find Southwest's bags-fly-free policy a key factor in choosing them.

And since first trying them two years ago, I'd never go back. Friendly staff, reliable, on-time services, comfortable new planes and... no bag charge! If it hadn't been for that one time when the only difference was the bag charge, I never would have flown Southwest and decided to fly 22 sectors on them subsequently. Amazing that my BWI-MKE-LAX flight was more enjoyable than business class on UA's "premium SFO-JFK.

So yeah, I'd say their bag charging policy probably has made a difference.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-06-01 17:42:12 and read 2247 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 82):
And who do you think customers call when they want to complain? Hmm?

They surely are not calling the PILOT or a reservation agent. When passengers calls to file a complaint reservation agents don't deal with that if a customer does end up talking to a reservation agent about a problem they had while traveling they will transfer them to the relative department to someone who is qualified to deal with their complaint. Reservation agents are there for one reason to help customers make a new reservation or to help customers who have an existing reservation. Passengers with complaints about past travel experiences are directed to a different person who works in the customer care department this way WN is able to keep the reservation lines open for passengers who want to make a new reservation.

Sorry try again because your point about you talking to pilots and reservation agents about is issue is still a non factor because no matter what you say pilots and reservation agents will NOT have to deal with this potential problem. So once again I say talk to the actual front line employees at the check-in counter they are the employees who would have to bare the brunt of this policy change and tell me what they think about this possible change and how they feel WN should handle this policy change should they decide to go forward with charging customers for bags without full and total honesty and transparency before the change goes into effect. HMM??

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-06-01 18:17:51 and read 2225 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 81):
It isn't shareholders who are demanding a bag fee, its Wall Street Analysts.

are these the same folks who also want WN to get assigned seating, stop F/A's entertainment, get rid of unions, fly a/c other than the 737??

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-06-01 19:40:27 and read 2158 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 87):

You really have no sense how valuable WNs brand is if you compare them to Ryan Air. Ryan Air is like Spirit. They don't value their brand.

The attitude by so many here is "So what if WN pisses people off with a bag fee, passengers will still fly them". For a site devoted to aviation enthusiasts, you guys sure have a lot of disdain for the revenue generators ( hint passengers).

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: mayor
Posted 2013-06-01 20:45:50 and read 2107 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 77):

Booked through Southwest.com and look - No bag fees! FL operated flights have actually seen increased bookings I believe since they've been able to be booked through Southwest.com - which handles the vast majority of all bookings.

Look carefully......I'm talking about fees they've already collected, via FL, not in the future. Obviously, since they're as generous and giving as everyone says they are, they'll have no trouble giving it back.........obviously

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2013-06-01 21:21:27 and read 2096 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 89):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 82):And who do you think customers call when they want to complain? Hmm?
They surely are not calling the PILOT or a reservation agent

They are calling reservations.

And stop calling me Shirley.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 89):
Reservation agents are there for one reason to help customers make a new reservation or to help customers who have an existing reservation.

Yes, but customers still call Reservations - the main telephone contact for any airline - to complain about everything from fares to delays to the smelly guy they sat next to on their previous flight.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 89):
Passengers with complaints about past travel experiences are directed to a different person who works in the customer care department

Sometimes, but the name of the game is first-call-resolution and agents do try to help explain policies to customers when those complaints are policy-related. In addition, most carriers do not staff customer care functions 24/7 whereas the reservations centers are staffed that way.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 89):
Sorry try again because your point about you talking to pilots and reservation agents about is issue is still a non factor because no matter what you say pilots and reservation agents will NOT have to deal with this potential problem.

You've obviously never worked as an airline reservations agent, because I can tell you from experience that reservations agents absolutely DO deal with customer blowback from what could be an unpopular policy decision. In fact, policy changes like that not only drive call volume into the res centers, but short and even long-term staffing needs for the call centers have been dictated by customer reaction to policy changes.

[Edited 2013-06-01 21:22:43]

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-06-01 21:30:08 and read 2076 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 66):
A modified, yet similar campaign could easily be "Bags Fly Cheap" instead.

I don't see a problem with this (as long as the fares were adjusted where there's a free bag surcharge worked into them currently). But then, I didn't have a problem paying $3 a bag when I flew PeoplExpress. If a reasonable fee was instituted, I doubt there'd be much blowback.

I wonder how something like United's annual baggage subscription would work for some folks as an intro for baggage fees at Southwest?

United Baggage Subscription

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: Raventech
Posted 2013-06-01 21:37:47 and read 2070 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 87):
The same is true for airlines - I cannot remember how often I have no seen reports on Ryanair on TV where Ryanair is blamed for all kinds of dirty tricks to create the image of being cheap. They still had 70m + passengers last year.

One big difference I see with your comparison. Southwest IS NOT Ryanair America. True that Ryanair is based on the WN model but they do not carry the same customer service reputation that WN has. When you fly Ryanair, you go in expecting to play a game to get the best deal, same with Spirit Airlines (America's closest airline to Ryanair). That is why no matter how ridiculous the fee may be, it marginally impact sales if at all. They're entire reputation is this type of stuff and people buy there tickets willing and expecting to play the fee game. For a good portion of WN customers, they buy and sometimes pay a premium so they don't have to deal with that type of stuff. The second WN pulls a stunt like that and their brand is tarnished IMO irreparably for years to come because they are now what they claimed not to be.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: superdash
Posted 2013-06-01 21:59:24 and read 2056 times.

This is hilarious....Its like a VIRGIN AMERICA press release....Believe what you read in the lamestream media...

Facts people!

2012 WN+FL combined for $148,658,000 in bag fees....

2011 WN+FL combined for $196,705,000 in bag fees

D'OH! That's a 32.32% DROP in bag fees

2012 - Southwest made $417M (excluding special items) compared to $330M in 2011. United made $589M on more than DOUBLE the revenue....who is the better investment?

Nothing to see here...

Sources:

http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/ri...mation/baggage_fees/html/2012.html
http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/ri...mation/baggage_fees/html/2011.html
http://www.swamedia.com/releases/sou...-consecutive-year-of-profitability
http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings....-newsArticle&ID=1777521&highlight=

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: AirlineCritic
Posted 2013-06-01 23:06:54 and read 2014 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 91):
You really have no sense how valuable WNs brand is if you compare them to Ryan Air. Ryan Air is like Spirit. They don't value their brand.

Actually, both have brands. Just different ones. My perception of the WN brand is that they try to be the friendly, predictable airline that has reasonable prices and does not screw you. The FR brand on the other hand... you get rock bottom prices but you have to have your defences up for getting screwed. This is very intentional, and works on one segment of the market, very successfully as well.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 91):
The attitude by so many here is "So what if WN pisses people off with a bag fee, passengers will still fly them". For a site devoted to aviation enthusiasts, you guys sure have a lot of disdain for the revenue generators ( hint passengers).

  

Quoting Raventech (Reply 95):
When you fly Ryanair, you go in expecting to play a game to get the best deal, same with Spirit Airlines (America's closest airline to Ryanair).

Yep.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-06-02 00:29:43 and read 1970 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 91):
Ryan Air is like Spirit. They don't value their brand.

...or their customers.

Quoting Raventech (Reply 95):
Spirit Airlines (America's closest airline to Ryanair).

No, I believe that Spirit is WORSE than Ryanair. FR doesn't charge for carry-ons.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: par13del
Posted 2013-06-02 04:18:30 and read 1915 times.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 94):
I don't see a problem with this (as long as the fares were adjusted where there's a free bag surcharge worked into them currently).

Well not sure any carrier dropped base fares when they instituted bags fees (added a few special fares), heck they raised fuel surcharges the day oil rises and weeks after it falls, at the end of the day its about how much money one can make, WN just seems to think - and so far they have proven it - that they can make money differently - I was going to say the old fashion way, they earn it - but.........

If Wall St folks - those experts who predicted the GFC, warned against it and were ignored NOT - were not so focused on WN being like NW, AA and DL maybe, just maybe, they would have advised their insestors to invest in airlines that matched their desired investment driven management style and today we would have the likes of CO, NW, TWA still filling our skies with other liveries and giving us more to talk about.  

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: zippyjet
Posted 2013-06-02 07:14:07 and read 1838 times.

A major contributing factor is the added SJU service. I seem to get the most way oversized 71 to 100 pound bags from SJU passengers. Many are shipping their stuff instead of Fed Exing it.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2013-06-02 07:16:57 and read 1833 times.

Quoting par13del (Reply 99):
Well not sure any carrier dropped base fares when they instituted bags fees (added a few special fares)

I understand what you're saying, but in my example upthread, there sure seems to be bag fees rolled into higher fares on WN, at least out of PDX.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: vfw614
Posted 2013-06-02 08:25:51 and read 1778 times.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 91):
You really have no sense how valuable WNs brand is if you compare them to Ryan Air. Ryan Air is like Spirit. They don't value their brand.

For the sake of the discussion, let's replace Ryanair with easyjet. easjyet has an extremely strong and positive brand as it is a successful group of companies, ranging from rental cars to busses and hotels. easyjet is also often in the media for things going wrong, not as often as Ryanair, but still (they usually come in 2nd place in UK's "worst airline" polls). They have just announced that check-in at airports will end and that the free carry on allowance will be reduced. So can we expect that to have a significant impact on the number of passengers travelling on easyjet? I doubt it. Lots of moaning and groaning, of course, some bad press, but that's it. If it had a long term impact on the brand, certainly easyjet would have had second thoughts given the negative impact it may then have on their bus, hotel, rental car, gym etc. businesses. I am not saying that any changes made by SWA would go unnoticed or would have some adverse effect, but my point is that the magnitude of those negative effects is wildly overestimated here.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: bobloblaw
Posted 2013-06-02 09:14:21 and read 1731 times.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 102):
(they usually come in 2nd place in UK's "worst airline" polls).

So EasyJet is 2nd Worst in UK while WN is either best or second best (B6 or AS might be higher) in the USA. And you think that makes your argument better?

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: mcg
Posted 2013-06-02 11:59:07 and read 1636 times.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 74):
Quoting mcg (Reply 61):
Bags Fly Free is one of the most successful marketing campaigns in history.

I hate superlatives because they are mostly wrong. Successful? Yes. In history? Probably not.

Note the qualifier "one of the". Look at it this way, can the typical consumer detect any difference between AA, DL and UA? Mostly not. I think a significant percentage of consumers can detect a difference between WN and the others and this is due in part to Bags Fly Free.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 74):
Quoting mcg (Reply 61):
In three words it defines why Southwest is different and better than other airlines and tells the customer why Southwest is a better value than the competition

Only if you check a bag.

Even if you never check a bag Bags Fly Free tells you why WN is different than the competition.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 74):
Quoting mcg (Reply 61):
Bags Fly Free has generated priceless good will among Southwest's customers

Priceless? Doubtful. Goodwill? Yes. But, how much the baggage checking crowd is willing to accept a small fee is the question.

The question is how well does Bags Fly Free communicate that WN offers a different and better airline experience? I think it communicates WN's value perfectly and the impact of Bag Fly Free goes way beyond the transaction economics of buying a plane ticket.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 74):
Quoting mcg (Reply 61):
It would be a profound mistake for Southwest to implement a bag fee.

There may be some short term pain. But, even my daughter sees it for what it really is. She was comparing prices on a trip and Southwest was higher by about $50. Then she said to me, "I get it dad. They just make the bag fee part of the price." Dad is proud.

Note that the slogan is Bags Fly Free, not We are Always Cheapest.

Topic: RE: WN Baggage Rev Up 500% After FL Acquisition!
Username: aerokiwi
Posted 2013-06-02 15:59:49 and read 1532 times.

Quoting mcg (Reply 104):
Look at it this way, can the typical consumer detect any difference between AA, DL and UA? Mostly not. I think a significant percentage of consumers can detect a difference between WN and the others and this is due in part to Bags Fly Free.

Absolutely agree with this. Bar frequent flyer schemes (which re generally declining in value), this is about the only differentiation a major airline can have.


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