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Topic: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: waly777
Posted 2013-06-08 00:21:41 and read 16751 times.

Quote:

A350 programme chief Didier Evrard tells Flightglobal that the doors were considered as an option for customers wanting higher-density seating arrangements with a 10-abreast cabin.

But he says that Airbus has since backed away from the concept. "The A350-1000 will only have four [pairs of] doors," he says, stressing that these will be sufficient for evacuation.
http://pro.flightglobal.com/news/art...t-have-fifth-pair-of-exits-386849/

What will be the evacuation limit with 4 doors? I can't remember this correctly but is the 777-9X coming with 4 doors as well?

In other news, Tunisair appears to cancel A350-800 order......

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-to-cancel-a350-800-order-386812/

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-06-08 00:32:15 and read 16663 times.

Quoting waly777 (Thread starter):
What will be the evacuation limit with 4 doors?

440.

Quoting waly777 (Thread starter):
I can't remember this correctly but is the 777-9X coming with 4 doors as well?

The 777-8 will have four doors (440 seat EL) and the 777-9 will have five (550 seat EL).

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: AA737-823
Posted 2013-06-08 12:22:39 and read 11848 times.

I was similarly surprised to see the 787-10X rendering with four pairs of doors as well. The 787-8 has four. The 787-9 has four. I really expected the stretch -10 to have five.
Now Airbus has gone the same way... does this mean no 10-abreast? Is that what the article meant with the quote?

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: Flaps
Posted 2013-06-08 12:26:57 and read 11781 times.

An attempt perhaps to keep high density versions of the A350-1000 from eating into potential A380 sales?

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: AR385
Posted 2013-06-08 12:29:16 and read 11746 times.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
does this mean no 10-abreast? Is that what the article meant with the quote?

European carriers operated 747s for a few years with the door over the wing disabled, effectively rendering them a 4 pair of doors aircraft. The reason for this was to actually carry MORE people so I don´t think it will affect it being 10 abreast or not.

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: brilondon
Posted 2013-06-08 12:32:15 and read 11654 times.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
Now Airbus has gone the same way... does this mean no 10-abreast? Is that what the article meant with the quote?

I believe that it would be wishful thinking. The trend seems to be to make the aircraft be configured at 10 abreast. I would say that Airbus is not going to be any different as the manufacturers are going to sell aircraft to airlines that want to maximize their ability to make money and that means getting as many butts in the aircraft for as little money possible. By having 10 abreast that would be giving the airlines what they want or Airbus and Boeing would not offer it.

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-08 12:34:00 and read 11656 times.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
Now Airbus has gone the same way... does this mean no 10-abreast? Is that what the article meant with the quote?

10-abreast will still be possible in a typical 3-class configuration. An all Y 10-abreast configuration however will not be possible because this will exceed the 440 seat limit.

[Edited 2013-06-08 12:34:39]

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-06-08 14:15:33 and read 10286 times.

I remember Airbus got into an argument with the FAA and pilots/flight attendant unions when they built the A340-600. They wanted to get a waiver of the maximum distance a passenger would have to travel to an exit in an evacuation. In the end, IIRC, Airbus prevailed.

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-06-08 14:26:42 and read 10103 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 7):
In the end, IIRC, Airbus prevailed.

No they didn't. They tried to argue that the maximum distance (either 50 or 60 feet, can't remember) between exits was unnecessary and that the dual aisles, wider slides were sufficient for evacuation, therefore the overwing exits were not necessary (although I believe they were still offering them as an option). However they were unsuccessful and were forced to keep the overwing exits. The first one was built with out them, and IIRC was never installed with them- an exit is painted on the aircraft to make it look like the regular production aircraft:

Same plane: No exit, and with an "exit":


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Charles Falk
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © OlivierG





Edit: A good comparison where you can see that the A346 prototype overwing exit is just paint and covered windows vs an actual door:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eurospot
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stuart Haigh

[Edited 2013-06-08 14:28:18]


[Edited 2013-06-08 14:53:27]

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-06-08 16:40:53 and read 8538 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 8):
No they didn't. They tried to argue that the maximum distance (either 50 or 60 feet, can't remember) between exits was unnecessary and that the dual aisles, wider slides were sufficient for evacuation, therefore the overwing exits were not necessary (although I believe they were still offering them as an option). However they were unsuccessful and were forced to keep the overwing exits. The first one was built with out them, and IIRC was never installed with them- an exit is painted on the aircraft to make it look like the regular production aircraft:

Same plane: No exit, and with an "exit":

Thanks for the clarification. There are a few airplanes out there with exits in odd places--find a picture of DanAir's 727-100--it had a 727-200 type galley service door installed on aft right side so they could cram more seats into it. To the best of my knowledge, they were the only ones to do that mod.

There are numerous A319's with 4 overwing exits instead of the normal 2--for those airlines that like "intimate" seating arrangements.

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-06-08 16:50:46 and read 8403 times.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
Now Airbus has gone the same way... does this mean no 10-abreast? Is that what the article meant with the quote?

Air Asia X does have Business Class, so that keeps them at 425 seats on the A350-900 at 10-abreast in Y.

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: RickNRoll
Posted 2013-06-08 23:53:04 and read 5445 times.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 3):

An attempt perhaps to keep high density versions of the A350-1000 from eating into potential A380 sales?

Manufacturers sell goods. They are happy when you buy their goods.

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: DTWSXM
Posted 2013-06-09 00:54:59 and read 5004 times.

I read on another thread where Boeing was undertaking a redesign of either the main doors or exit doors of the latest 737 to increase the opening by six inches. This was to allow a faster egress and therefor more seats. I did a quick search and couldn't find the thread for an exact reference.

My questions. Could eight wider doors provide an evacuation rate comparable to a ten door configuration thus allowing for denser seating? Are the engineering hurdles of making bigger doors equally difficult to placing more doors (if indeed those are the issues)?

Thanks in advance,
Chris

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-06-09 01:06:35 and read 4943 times.

Quoting DTWSXM (Reply 12):
I read on another thread where Boeing was undertaking a redesign of either the main doors or exit doors of the latest 737 to increase the opening by six inches. This was to allow a faster egress and therefor more seats. I did a quick search and couldn't find the thread for an exact reference.

Boeing subsequently denied the report.

Quoting DTWSXM (Reply 12):
My questions. Could eight wider doors provide an evacuation rate comparable to a ten door configuration thus allowing for denser seating?

Probably, but the Type A door used on the A350 is already the largest door category. So a new, wider door would need to be certified and I expect Airbus does not want to go through that effort.

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: DTWPurserBoy
Posted 2013-06-09 09:54:54 and read 4039 times.

Quoting DTWSXM (Reply 12):
I read on another thread where Boeing was undertaking a redesign of either the main doors or exit doors of the latest 737 to increase the opening by six inches. This was to allow a faster egress and therefor more seats. I did a quick search and couldn't find the thread for an exact reference.

My questions. Could eight wider doors provide an evacuation rate comparable to a ten door configuration thus allowing for denser seating? Are the engineering hurdles of making bigger doors equally difficult to placing more doors (if indeed those are the issues)?

Boeing uses the exact same door in 2013 that they used on the 737-100 in 1966. The slide pack is a different shape but the door is the same.

Widening the door by 6 inches MIGHT allow for a dual slide raft to be installed but IMHO would be tight. The wide-body exits have lots of room for the dual-track.

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: WNCrew
Posted 2013-06-09 18:26:00 and read 3477 times.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 14):
Boeing uses the exact same door in 2013 that they used on the 737-100 in 1966. The slide pack is a different shape but the door is the same.

It's dreadful and clumsy to operate. Also it was never designed with a slide originally (because it's ORIGINAL to the 707)... so it has no power assistance, and cannot accommodate a slide/raft.

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: anrec80
Posted 2013-06-09 18:34:59 and read 3445 times.

So does this mean A350 won't have cramped 3-4-3 configuration a-la some carriers 77W?

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: Stitch
Posted 2013-06-09 18:44:42 and read 3381 times.

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 16):
So does this mean A350 won't have cramped 3-4-3 configuration a-la some carriers 77W?

Air Asia X will be 3-4-3, but so far I believe they are the only customer to announce that configuration. Everyone else seems to be 3+3+3.

Topic: RE: A350-1000; 4 Doors Only. 5th No Longer An Option.
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-10 02:20:36 and read 3008 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
440.

So if JL orders the A35J it will not be for domestic usage, unless they're happy with the fewer seats.


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