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Topic: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: wnflyguy
Posted 2013-06-08 23:43:37 and read 7130 times.

Looks like from Southwest.com and Airtran.com DCA-HOU is getting another flight!
FL DCA-MCO flight got the AX.
But WN got the O K to switch the slot to add another DCA-HOU flight in August.
That now gives DCA it's first WN metal to RON.
DCA-HOU service
flt 4567 06:55-09:15 (new)
flt 3123 16:00-18:20

HOU-DCA service
flt 987 11:00-15:00
flt 4568 18:55-22:55 (new)

great news

Wnfg  

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: dbo861
Posted 2013-06-09 00:35:56 and read 7008 times.

What's taking them so long to shift slots to MDW?

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: b757capt
Posted 2013-06-09 06:29:20 and read 6577 times.

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 1):

I doubt they will. They don't have the slots to fly a schedule like AA, UA, or DL has.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-06-09 06:30:54 and read 6575 times.

So I guess crying to daddy for slots at DCA because they didn't have enough to start DCA-HOU worked and now they can start twice daily service.


Good for them. The crybabys at WN get what they want again. Meanwhile cities with no service to DCA continue to get screwed. (Ahem OKC)

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: sdoyon
Posted 2013-06-09 06:38:51 and read 6534 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 3):
The crybabys at WN get what they want again.

I think you're forgetting about the time they lost out on the LGA and DCA bidding...

Seriously though, how does applying for and receiving slots = crying to daddy? They're using their small position in DCA to their advantage--limited incumbents get preferential treatment because it creates competition. They applied just like everyone else, and the DOT found their application to have met the most criteria--sorry if you don't agree with them. Would you have the same opinion of B6 had won and started service to JAX?

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-06-09 07:05:55 and read 6436 times.

Quoting b757capt (Reply 2):
I doubt they will. They don't have the slots to fly a schedule like AA, UA, or DL has.
DL doesn't service WAS-CHI nonstop. But, WN probably still wants more slots. I think it will be 3x daily, with 2x loss to ATL and 1x loss to MKE.

If AA/US divest slots and WN acquires some of those, I suppose we will see MDW service enhanced more after that, and service to DAL, BNA and maybe MCO restored. DCA-MCO is covered by another LCC that is B6.

[Edited 2013-06-09 07:48:12]

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-06-09 07:31:50 and read 6287 times.

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 4):

I wouldn't be upset if they kept the MCO service. They made it clear in their application that they are unable to find any slots to serve HOU. They are the underdog, they need this service, etc.. once they win the slot, they draw down service from a much smaller city (MCO) to serve another daily flight. It's a game WN plays. They cry about being the underdog to get what they want.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-06-09 07:47:03 and read 6210 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 3):
Good for them. The crybabys at WN get what they want again. Meanwhile cities with no service to DCA continue to get screwed. (Ahem OKC)

I'd much rather see WN, F9, or another LCC get service, then the legacy's who like to merge and let them jack up fees like a $200 change fee easier. Oh world airport has plenty of service, just because you can't get a nonstop to the destination that you want doesn't mean its getting screwed

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-06-09 07:55:05 and read 6154 times.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 7):

So how many nonstops does the Houston to DC market need?

Didn't WN also apply for DCA-OKC? I guess they no longer have a hard on for that service?

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-06-09 08:11:46 and read 6074 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 6):
once they win the slot, they draw down service from a much smaller city (MCO) to serve another daily flight. It's a game WN plays. They cry about being the underdog to get what they want.
Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 8):
So how many nonstops does the Houston to DC market need?

  
You realize US alone has 7 daily flights between DCA-MCO? That is not including B6's 3 daily flights plus how many Southwest/AirTran have. DCA-Houston currently has 8 nonstops on UA, plus now these 2 WN flights...still less than DCA-MCO. So you should be happy. WN is removing service from a well served route with multiple competitors to add flights to route with less flights and right now only one airline  .

You are barking up the wrong tree. Want OKC and other small cities to have DCA service? Complain to US...they are the ones sitting on a huge number of slots flying 7x daily to "smaller cities" like MCO. You must love their 9x daily DCA-PHL service.

[Edited 2013-06-09 08:16:55]

[Edited 2013-06-09 08:19:18]

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: drerx7
Posted 2013-06-09 08:21:19 and read 6015 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 6):

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 4):

I wouldn't be upset if they kept the MCO service. They made it clear in their application that they are unable to find any slots to serve HOU. They are the underdog, they need this service, etc.. once they win the slot, they draw down service from a much smaller city (MCO) to serve another daily flight. It's a game WN plays. They cry about being the underdog to get what they want.

Waving the BS flag on this one

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 8):
So how many nonstops does the Houston to DC market need?

SMH

Quoting Polot (Reply 9):
You realize US alone has 7 daily flights between DCA-MCO? That is not including B6's 3 daily flights plus how many Southwest/AirTran have. DCA-Houston currently has 8 nonstops on UA, plus now these 2 WN flights...still less than DCA-MCO.

You are barking up the wrong tree. Want OKC and other small cities to have DCA service? Complain to US...they are the ones sitting on a huge number of slots flying 7x daily to "smaller cities" like MCO.

AMEN
Look man, We are held hostage down here to UA's price gouging...so with all due respect OKC and MCO can kiss my you know what - HOU-DCA is more needed than the 11,000th nonstop from DCA to MCO on one of the 3 carriers in the market. And like Polot said...look at how many RJs US is sitting on slots to DCA.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-06-09 08:28:06 and read 5985 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 8):

Okay, but even if Houston is a large city, the fares are sky-high because UA is the only carrier on the route. I think DCA-Houston getting a LCC competitor to drive prices down a little bit is more important than a very leisure-oriented route with very low fares keeping one of its ~10 flights a day.

I get it, you're upset that they are continuously overlooking OKC. You're aggravated with WN over it. I know how you feel, look at what WN has done to my home airport of ISP!   But just because they are trying to do what they feel is best for their business doesn't mean they are cry-babies.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-06-09 08:28:50 and read 5981 times.

Quoting wnflyguy (Thread starter):

great news

Not at the expense of OKC! WN wanted to serve it sooooo bad...now they're not even giving us the time of day.

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 10):
AMEN
Look man, We are held hostage down here to UA's price gouging...so with all due respect OKC and MCO can kiss my you know what - HOU-DCA is more needed than the 11,000th nonstop from DCA to MCO on one of the 3 carriers in the market. And like Polot said...look at how many RJs US is sitting on slots to DCA.

Thank you for your emotional sentiment...from our perspective, Houston can kiss our you know what.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-06-09 08:43:51 and read 5929 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 12):
Not at the expense of OKC! WN wanted to serve it sooooo bad...now they're not even giving us the time of day.

US also wanted to serve it sooooo bad...now they're not even giving you the time of day. They could start OKC tomorrow if they wanted to.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2013-06-09 09:15:34 and read 5846 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 3):
Good for them. The crybabys at WN get what they want again. Meanwhile cities with no service to DCA continue to get screwed. (Ahem OKC)

US has over 60% of the slots at DCA with some markets being served 10+ times a day. If OKC really warranted the service like they claimed, they could take a 16 seat airplane off of one of the routes they have those on, switch the slot to OKC and put an A321 on it... But they aren't because they honestly know it was only about getting one more slot and keeping B6 and WN from getting one.

WN has a limited number of slots and OKC doesn't make a very good business case for a slot that can be used anywhere.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: Lambertman
Posted 2013-06-09 09:19:09 and read 5820 times.

Does anyone know how the STL service has done? I've flown it six times so far and to me the loads have looked pretty strong. Hopefully when DAL's restrictions are lifted we don't lose any frequencies...

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2013-06-09 09:21:41 and read 5808 times.

With one-way fares as low as $106....

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-06-09 09:40:34 and read 5720 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 14):

WN has a limited number of slots and OKC doesn't make a very good business case for a slot that can be used anywhere.

Really? So why have two different airlines vied for service from there? With TIK being the largest employer in the state...and the great amount of traffic generated between there and the Pentagon, OKC is a low hanging fruit. But politics being what it is, they have to sacrifice serving another, less deserving airport in order to utilize the slot...

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: usflyguy
Posted 2013-06-09 10:05:12 and read 5628 times.

Quoting awacsooner (Reply 17):
Really? So why have two different airlines vied for service from there? With TIK being the largest employer in the state...and the great amount of traffic generated between there and the Pentagon, OKC is a low hanging fruit. But politics being what it is, they have to sacrifice serving another, less deserving airport in order to utilize the slot...

They were vying for specific types of slots that are restricted in their use. Like I said, if the service added that much value to the airline, US could start it tomorrow with their large portfolio of slots that they have. They were using OKC to keep WN and B6 from gaining additional access to DCA.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2013-06-09 10:17:52 and read 5589 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 14):
WN has a limited number of slots and OKC doesn't make a very good business case for a slot that can be used anywhere.

Okay, here's the thing about UA service to IAH. I usually pass through IAH on the way to ELP. But my DCA-IAH-ELP fares are usually less than advertised DCA-IAH fares for the same date (a supply and demand thing I guess). DCA-HOU service ought to help rationalize that.

OTOH, Oklahoma City is a state capital and Houston isn't. It does deserve respect.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-06-09 10:26:53 and read 5557 times.

When AA and US merge, it could result in OKC-DCA as well as GRR-DCA being actually added by AA. Right now US would have to open up a station in OKC, but with AA already present in OKC, it would mean just adding flights under AA. Which slots would be pulled: atleast one and my guess is AA would cease flying ISP-DCA w/ ISP's proximity to the JFK station.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: KD5MDK
Posted 2013-06-09 10:58:48 and read 5444 times.

DCA-IAH-ELP is competing with DCA-DFW-ELP. That's what lowers the price.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-06-09 11:31:24 and read 5325 times.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 14):
US has over 60% of the slots at DCA with some markets being served 10+ times a day. If OKC really warranted the service like they claimed, they could take a 16 seat airplane off of one of the routes they have those on, switch the slot to OKC and put an A321 on it... But they aren't because they honestly know it was only about getting one more slot and keeping B6 and WN from getting one.

WN has a limited number of slots and OKC doesn't make a very good business case for a slot that can be used anywhere.

Don't think I'm not frustrated at US....

My frustration is with WN applying for OKC and doing zero local promotion of it. Not hardly a peep from WN. Very silent and sloppy submission. They do not win.

WN applies for HOU the next time a slot is available. They do massive PR, they promote the heck out of the proposal and do a massive campaign for write in letters. They win the award. They then almost immediately pull a slot away from a smaller city (MCO) than HOU and add another frequency. That is my frustration.

I'm not mad about OKC not getting it, moreso with WN pulling a slot to add duplicate service in the market immediately after crying for a slot for this service. HOU now has 2 daily flights. MCO and OKC lose out.

OKC is the largest in-perimeter market without any DCA service. It is a state capital. It has tens of thousands of federal government jobs (office jobs, not just military jobs). Also the energy industry and Native American tribal headquarters (which do a ton of government relation traffic) are large in Central Oklahoma and travel to DC for business.

So dismissing OKC as a wide spot in the road as some would make it seem is innacurate.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: seven3seven
Posted 2013-06-09 11:40:23 and read 5254 times.

HOU flights will make more money consistently than OKC flights. End of story.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: barney captain
Posted 2013-06-09 11:51:18 and read 5189 times.

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 23):
HOU flights will make more money consistently than OKC flights. End of story.

Exactly.

Jetmatt seems to think this this was some kind of snub at OKC. If OKC was a better BUSINESS decision, they would have gotten service.

How many more connection opportunities await in HOU over OKC? - no comparison.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-06-09 11:53:50 and read 5354 times.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 24):
Jetmatt seems to think this this was some kind of snub at OKC. If OKC was a better BUSINESS decision, they would have gotten service.
Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 22):
I'm not mad about OKC not getting it, moreso with WN pulling a slot to add duplicate service in the market immediately after crying for a slot for this service. HOU now has 2 daily flights. MCO and OKC lose out.

I will say it again. WN did not have the slot 6 months ago to start service, but now they have the slot, they suddenly have the resources to add a second flight a month after winning the slot?

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-06-09 11:56:15 and read 5331 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 22):
OKC is the largest in-perimeter market without any DCA service. It is a state capital. It has tens of thousands of federal government jobs (office jobs, not just military jobs). Also the energy industry and Native American tribal headquarters (which do a ton of government relation traffic) are large in Central Oklahoma and travel to DC for business.

But if OKC is so strong a market, why hasn't US already launched it? US has recently canned their YOW-DCA flights and trimmed down VPS/PNS-DCA, so they've had slots available. Yet still they don't launch OKC.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 22):
MCO and OKC lose out.

MCO has plenty of service, so I wouldn't cry too much for them. And while you characterize MCO as a smaller market than HOU, MCO is one of the top 5 busiest O&D airports in the country, so I doubt they'll even notice.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 22):
My frustration is with WN applying for OKC and doing zero local promotion of it. Not hardly a peep from WN. Very silent and sloppy submission. They do not win.

Because they knew they had little chance to win during that application. Even though OKC was more deserving, the DOT was unlikely to pull a slot from an existing small market to give to another small market.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: drerx7
Posted 2013-06-09 12:15:56 and read 5260 times.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 24):
Exactly.

Jetmatt seems to think this this was some kind of snub at OKC. If OKC was a better BUSINESS decision, they would have gotten service.

How many more connection opportunities await in HOU over OKC? - no comparison.

Again, I can't understand why this is such a hard fact to swallow.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-06-09 12:20:02 and read 5206 times.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 24):
How many more connection opportunities await in HOU over OKC? - no comparison.

I thought this was about the beloved local market at HOU having high airfares? Do HOU fliers really want connecting traffic taking away their seats and diluting their only nonstop flight to DCA? (now two)

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: jerseyguy
Posted 2013-06-09 12:24:36 and read 5174 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 8):
So how many nonstops does the Houston to DC market need?

As many as airlines want to put on the route.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2013-06-09 13:02:56 and read 4958 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 26):
But if OKC is so strong a market, why hasn't US already launched it? US has recently canned their YOW-DCA flights and trimmed down VPS/PNS-DCA, so they've had slots available. Yet still they don't launch OKC.

As has already been mentioned, US does not serve OKC at this point. When OKC gains service on US, even if it's AA post-merger, the first link will likely be CLT. After that, DCA may be in the cards.

With no US station, the costs of starting a station for one flight to a quasi-hub with limited connection opportunities probably preclude the idea getting much of a start.

That said, US/AA would be smart to start DCA service before WN jumps in on the market.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2013-06-09 13:09:04 and read 4927 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 9):
You must love their 9x daily DCA-PHL service.

Bad example.

DCA-PHL (a hub) and DCA-EWR (another hub) are frequently 100% full with standbys at the gate.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-06-09 13:12:58 and read 4887 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 30):
With no US station, the costs of starting a station for one flight to a quasi-hub with limited connection opportunities probably preclude the idea getting much of a start.

They could easily start OKC-CLT (as they proposed in their application) or OKC-PHX, both of which should be viable routes.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2013-06-09 13:16:11 and read 4847 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 32):
They could easily start OKC-CLT (as they proposed in their application) or OKC-PHX, both of which should be viable routes.

They should absolutely start with CLT service first. I think DCA should come before PHL. PHX I doubt US is working on considering if PHX is pulled down...

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2013-06-09 13:16:35 and read 4852 times.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 31):
DCA-PHL (a hub) and DCA-EWR (another hub) are frequently 100% full with standbys at the gate.

Yet US uses extremely small equipment to fly these routes. Depending on how US chooses, they can make almost any route fill to 100% with junk connecting traffic.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-06-09 14:43:25 and read 4412 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 20):

I know I'm gonna sound like I'm just taking this personally, which I'm not, but I doubt ISP-DCA would end due to the fact that they get certain incentives from the airport for starting new service, and two, the flights are ALWAYS full. Now I know that full planes equal high yields, but I don't think it does that bad.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: midex461
Posted 2013-06-09 14:50:42 and read 4378 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 32):
or OKC-PHX, both of which should be viable routes.

US tried flying OKC-PHX before using YV CRJs (not sure if it was the -200 or the -900), and pulled out after getting spanked by WN.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: awacsooner
Posted 2013-06-09 14:59:00 and read 4326 times.

they flew 900s from both LAS and PHX to OKC...then downgraded them to 200's...then pulled them all together

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-06-09 15:00:10 and read 4329 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 32):
They could easily start OKC-CLT (as they proposed in their application) or OKC-PHX, both of which should be viable routes.

WN already ran US off OKC-PHX once. There is no point when AA already operated OKC-LAX 3x a day. CLT is probably a likely bet after the merger closes.

I understand Matt's frustration and was torn on the this latest DCA slot bid. It is what it is though. WN is will probably keep moving DCA slots a around into the mega stations. It does suck to be the largest city (metro area of 1.3 mil) without nonstop service to DCA when much smaller markets have it. It'll eventually happen though.

Not much can be done though on slot squatting. To do anything more you are getting into the realm of stipulating minimum aircraft size or frequencies per market. I'm not sure that is a good road to go down.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: strandedinbgm
Posted 2013-06-09 15:45:47 and read 4045 times.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 19):
OTOH, Oklahoma City is a state capital and Houston isn't. It does deserve respect.

So is Montpelier. Where's their non-stop service?

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-06-09 17:04:23 and read 3719 times.

Quoting strandedinbgm (Reply 39):
So is Montpelier. Where's their non-stop service?

35 miles up to the road in BTV, which has a population of a whole 200k people in their metro area. I personally consider Montpelier to be served by the airport in BTV. Heck, they are closer to the airport there than a lot of areas of the OKC metro area are to WRWA. They are closer than actual suburbs of OKC...of course OKC is massive in land area - 2nd largest behind JAX (or 8th when including a few cities in Alaska and a couple in Montana).

Regardless, OKC has a very large government presence with respect to employees with military, FAA, FDA, SSA, Ag Dept, VA, GSA, etc.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: Flytravel
Posted 2013-06-09 17:18:53 and read 3650 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):
WN is will probably keep moving DCA slots a around into the mega stations

I wonder if AA will do some mega station approach to DCA over the small airports, as well. AA could also start service to Houston via IAH as well, and maybe some token frequencies to ATL and MKE as well. US already flies to DL's hubs DTW and MSP.

AA will bring a strong brand to DC and have the most departures out of the preferred airport for domestic travel, and could easily position itself as a viable choice for DC based FF.

Of the top 50 US metros, AA would essentially have nonstop service for DC pax to every major market inside the perimeter, and have LAX and PHX from IAD. There would be no nonstop to SF, Seattle, San Diego, Denver, Portland, San Antonio, Las Vegas, Austin and Salt Lake City but the list of cities from large, mid-size to small, in the east and mid-west would be impressive. I think AA could add GRR-DCA and OKC-DCA as far as mid-size markets.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 22):
They then almost immediately pull a slot away from a smaller city (MCO)

B6 as a low cost carrier still services DCA-MCO. There is still LCC competition on the route. Possibly WN or another carrier could fly IAD-MCO as well. There is lower cost parking at IAD, which would make it easier for the family of four going to Disney to save some money anyways.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: kgaiflyer
Posted 2013-06-09 17:18:54 and read 3657 times.

Quoting strandedinbgm (Reply 39):
So is Montpelier. Where's their non-stop service?

You obviously haven't done your research -- Montpelier doesn't even have an airport -- unless you've heard of Knapp State Airport in Berlin, Vermont. So without an airport, commercial airlines can't serve the community. And so the 7855 citizens of Montpelier will have to continue to drive 35 miles northwest to Burlington for air service.

And the 1,296,565 folks in the Oklahoma City metro will continue not to have DCA service.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: Atrude777
Posted 2013-06-09 17:57:24 and read 3476 times.

While this is great for WN to be able to do so...I think I see jetmatt's argument...

He is not complaining that HOU-DCA got the slot..nor is he really complaining that OKC-DCA did not get the route..(not the extent I am reading)

What the biggest question to me is, and I am a HUGE WN support and fan..WN slammed US the same argument we have on the boards. If DCA-OKC is so necessary by both airlines...why didn't US serve it with it's own slot? The same question can go to WN now...why couldn't they just transfer DCA-MCO to DCA-OKC like WN had originally tried to win the slot for...or...why couldn't they transfer DCA-MCO to DCA-HOU? What changed the circumstances that WN was just now allowed to change DCA-MCO?

In reality...both airlines had the slots to start DCA-OKC or DCA-HOU (WN).

Alex

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: jetmatt777
Posted 2013-06-09 18:12:35 and read 3374 times.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 43):
He is not complaining that HOU-DCA got the slot..nor is he really complaining that OKC-DCA did not get the route..(not the extent I am reading)

Thank you for taking the time to read what I have been saying...Reading comprehension is a lost skill these days:

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 22):
I'm not mad about OKC not getting it, moreso with WN pulling a slot to add duplicate service in the market immediately after crying for a slot for this service. HOU now has 2 daily flights. MCO and OKC lose out.

WN: We don't have enough slots to start this route. We need this route to open up a world of low fare service to HOU.
DOT: Here's the slots. Make it happen.
WN: Immediately pull a slot from another market and add a second daily service.

This is what I have been saying the whole time. They had the resources to make it happen the whole time, they cried to daddy to get an additional slot which they got, then they moved another flight over to add to their HOU hub.

WN is building a reputation of playing the underdog to the DOT. When they use the exact same tactics now as the majors. WN had 40 years to get into DCA, it's not US or anyone else's fault they did not pursue those slots until the last 5 years. They should be treated equally as other carriers, especially now that the Southwest is slowly morphing into a traditional legacy carrier.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: mesaflyguy
Posted 2013-06-09 18:41:41 and read 3204 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 44):

I see what you are saying, but perhaps they thought they need more than one daily frequency to hold a candle to UA's service. It's a valid argument to make that, on a business route like this one, they need more than one daily rotation to be truly competitive. If they didn't get the second slot, they may have thought they wouldn't be able to fly the route to their standards.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-06-09 18:54:02 and read 3152 times.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 44):
This is what I have been saying the whole time. They had the resources to make it happen the whole time, they cried to daddy to get an additional slot which they got, then they moved another flight over to add to their HOU hub.

So asking for an additional slot is crying to daddy? Every airline that applied for the slot already has slots in DCA. B6 has resources to start flights to JAX (their proposed destination with the slot)- they can just move one of their current flights. US has (many) resources available to operate OKC- they can just move one of their current flights.

WN asked for the additional slot because....drumroll... they wanted an additional slot. They want to operate 6 flights out of DCA instead of 5 (note I just made those numbers up- I do not know how slots WN exactly has). Just like how B6 asked for the additional slot because....drumroll... they wanted an additional slot (not because they deeply care about the people who live in Jacksonville). Just like how US asked for the additional slot because....drumroll... they wanted an additional slot (not because they deeply care about the people who live in Oklahoma City, they don't even fly to OKC) .

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 44):
They should be treated equally as other carriers, especially now that the Southwest is slowly morphing into a traditional legacy carrier.

How has WN gotten special treatment in this scenario? They asked for a slot so they can operate DCA-HOU and received it...and are starting DCA-HOU. Neither US or B6 are new carriers in DCA and neither are barred from flying to HOU, OKC, or JAX from DCA if they wanted to.

[Edited 2013-06-09 18:57:23]

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: WNCrew
Posted 2013-06-09 19:04:54 and read 3087 times.

Quoting Polot (Reply 46):
WN asked for the additional slot because....drumroll... they wanted an additional slot. They want to operate 6 flights out of DCA instead of 5 (note I just made those numbers up- I do not know how slots WN exactly has). Just like how B6 asked for the additional slot because....drumroll... they wanted an additional slot (not because they deeply care about the people who live in Jacksonville). Just like how US asked for the additional slot because....drumroll... they wanted an additional slot (not because they deeply care about the people who live in Oklahoma City, they don't even fly to OKC) .

WELL SAID! Seems pretty simple to me. I fail to understand why people take [Airplanes flying into a city] so personally, or even act as if it is. OKC isn't some secret metropolitan mecca... despite what one living there might feel like, if it was then I assume many other carriers would have much more service there. I lay over there and the airport isn't even that large.

It's a business, it's about money.... it's not about much else, nor should it be. As stated above, EVERYONE could provide service DCA-OKC if they wanted, but they WANTED another slot... all of the airlines... WN included.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2013-06-09 19:16:22 and read 3048 times.

Quoting midex461 (Reply 36):
US tried flying OKC-PHX before using YV CRJs (not sure if it was the -200 or the -900), and pulled out after getting spanked by WN.
Quoting midex461 (Reply 36):
they flew 900s from both LAS and PHX to OKC...then downgraded them to 200's...then pulled them all together

And therein is the reason.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 41):
Of the top 50 US metros, AA would essentially have nonstop service for DC pax to every major market inside the perimeter, and have LAX and PHX from IAD. There would be no nonstop to SF, Seattle, San Diego, Denver, Portland, San Antonio, Las Vegas, Austin and Salt Lake City

I thought AA had service DCA-LAX. And after the merger, it will also have LAS, PHX and SAN.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: Polot
Posted 2013-06-09 19:25:56 and read 3003 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 48):
I thought AA had service DCA-LAX. And after the merger, it will also have LAS, PHX and SAN.

It will be interesting to see if the they are forced to give up any of their beyond perimeter slots for a rebid (that they may be able to bid for again). TWA use to have slots for DCA-LAX but were unable to transfer them to AA (AS got the slots and started their SEA service). But since the TWA/AA merger was a little different than a traditional merger they might be fine, I don't know the law all that well.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: wnflyguy
Posted 2013-06-09 20:00:04 and read 2845 times.

Next Year I think you will see DCA shape up like this.
..........................................06:00 ATL 737-800
..........................................06:30 MDW 737-800
..........................................06:55 HOU 737-800
..........................................08:00 RSW 737-700
ATL 08:45..........................09:25 MDW 737-800
MDW 10:50........................11:30 ATL 737-800
STL 11:30.........................12:00 STL 737-700
MKE 12:00.........................12:40 MKE 737-700
MDW 13:00.........................13:55 MDW 737-800
RSW 13:30.........................14:10 ATL 737-700
HOU 15:00.........................16:00 HOU 737-800
ATL 15:25.........................16:05 MKE 737-700
MDW 16:20........................17:00 MDW 737-800
AUS 16:55.........................17:40 AUS 737-800
ATL 18:00.........................18:40 ATL 737-800
STL 18:25..........................18:55 STL 737-700
MKE 22:05......................................... 737-700
ATL 22:55.......................................... 737-800
HOU 22:55.......................................... 737-800
MDW 00:00.......................................... 737-800

wnfg  

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-06-09 21:19:32 and read 2536 times.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 41):
I wonder if AA will do some mega station approach to DCA over the small airports, as well. AA could also start service to Houston via IAH as well, and maybe some token frequencies to ATL and MKE as well. US already flies to DL's hubs DTW and MSP.

I'm not sure AA/US is really going to want to go toe to toe with WN on every route. US is the 800lbs gorilla in DCA and has been for years.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 41):
AA will bring a strong brand to DC

Honestly the AA brand to DCA is probably the least important thing in all of this. For decades its been US on the east coast and they've owned DCA for a while. Just because it'll have AA on the side of the plane it really isn't going to change anything.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 41):
Of the top 50 US metros, AA would essentially have nonstop service for DC pax to every major market inside the perimeter, and have LAX and PHX from IAD. There would be no nonstop to SF, Seattle, San Diego, Denver, Portland, San Antonio, Las Vegas, Austin and Salt Lake City but the list of cities from large, mid-size to small, in the east and mid-west would be impressive. I think AA could add GRR-DCA and OKC-DCA as far as mid-size markets.

So AA/US will be missing n/s service to: HOU, ATL, SFO, ONT, SEA, DEN, PDX, SAT, SMF, SJC, AUS, MKE, OKC, and SLC when looking at the Top 50 Metro areas in the country.

Out of those only SAT, SMF, SJC, and OKC do not have nonstop service to DCA on someone.

OKC is the only within perimeter city in the Top 50 metro areas without nonstop service - they are currently the 42nd largest...ahead of SDF, RIC, MSY, BDL, RDU, BHM, BUF, and SLC whom all have service.

It is what it is though. I think we might see AA/US cut flights elsewhere to get the service offered.

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 47):
WELL SAID! Seems pretty simple to me. I fail to understand why people take [Airplanes flying into a city] so personally, or even act as if it is. OKC isn't some secret metropolitan mecca... despite what one living there might feel like, if it was then I assume many other carriers would have much more service there. I lay over there and the airport isn't even that large.

I think there is something special about having nonstop service to National from your hometown. No OKC isn't unique or what not...it is still the 42nd largest metro area in the nation or 29th largest city itself. The area is maintaining 3-4% growth per year, so its holding its own. As far as more carriers adding service...AA went to 3x daily to LAX recently, WN announcing 2x ATL, and UA recently started 1x daily CLE service back up. To be fair MCI and MEM service is going away, but those aren't very largest markets.

As far as airport size - what exactly are you wanting? Not everyone is going to be the size of MDW or ATL. Your comment really doesn't make much sense. The airport terminal itself is a pretty good size for the market it service. It currently has 17 gates, it'll be expanding to around 21ish once the East Concourse gets underway in a few years. I've been to plenty of airports much smaller than OKC. Again...its not MDW, but it sure isn't AMA.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2013-06-09 22:02:53 and read 2406 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 51):
The area is maintaining 3-4% growth per year, so its holding its own.

When you say "the area" I'm assuming you mean the Oklahoma City MSA? While Oklahoma City's growth rate is quite healthy, I don't think it's anywhere near 3-4% per year. I'm seeing annual growth rates per year (over the last 12 years) to be anywhere from 1.0 to 1.8%

source (Based on official US Census counts for 2000 & 2010 and US Census estimates for all the other years.)

Having said that, I think OKC-DCA would be viable if the flight originated/ended at DAL like WN had planned in their previous application with DOT.

LoneStarMike

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-06-09 22:59:10 and read 2263 times.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 52):
When you say "the area" I'm assuming you mean the Oklahoma City MSA?

That is indeed why I said area and not just city.  
Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 52):
While Oklahoma City's growth rate is quite healthy, I don't think it's anywhere near 3-4% per year. I'm seeing annual growth rates per year (over the last 12 years) to be anywhere from 1.0 to 1.8%

2012 estimates have OKC up around 9800 citizens from 2011 or 1.7%. Norman is up 1.5% (to 115.5k), Edmond 2.3%, Moore 2%, Midwest City 1.5%, Yukon 2.6%, and Mustang 2.8% just to name a few of the surrounding cities and suburbs.

2012 Details: http://www.census.gov/popest/data/cities/totals/2012/index.html

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 52):
Having said that, I think OKC-DCA would be viable if the flight originated/ended at DAL like WN had planned in their previous application with DOT.

If you read the application you would also note that WN planned for around 70% of the traffic on the flight to be load OKC-DCA O&D, DAL was only expected to contribute 20%, and 10% was to be additional connecting traffic in OKC (assuming from DEN, PHX, and LAS). So I wouldn't agree with the statement that it needs a tag to DAL to be viable. If WN still decides to start it at some point, I would almost still expect a tag to DAL.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2013-06-10 00:00:35 and read 2148 times.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 53):
2012 estimates have OKC up around 9800 citizens from 2011 or 1.7%. Norman is up 1.5% (to 115.5k), Edmond 2.3%, Moore 2%, Midwest City 1.5%, Yukon 2.6%, and Mustang 2.8% just to name a few of the surrounding cities and suburbs.

And all of those other cities you mentioned were already included in the Oklahoma City MSA at the source I linked to. The US Census estimated that the MSA added 20,744 new residents from 2011 to 2012 for a growth rate of 1.6% - not 3 or 4 percent annually as you stated earlier. The last time the Oklahoma City MSA had an annual growth rate of 3% or more was 1983 - when the region grew by 3.7%. That was the only point I was trying to make.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 51):
OKC is the only within perimeter city in the Top 50 metro areas without nonstop service - they are currently the 42nd largest...ahead of SDF, RIC, MSY, BDL, RDU, BHM, BUF, and SLC whom all have service.

I went to BTS.gov and looked at airport rankings (based on number of passengers) from March 1, 2013 through February 28, 2013

Airport/Rank

SLC - 23
RDU - 37
MSY - 40
BDL - 55
BUF - 58
OKC - 63
SDF - 68
RIC - 69
BHM - 72

So five of the cities smaller than Oklahoma City still have more passengers, and of the remaining three, how many of those have mainline service to DCA? (I'm asking because I don't know.) Obviously WN would be offering mainline service and maybe they don't feel like there's enough demand to serve it economically with the aircraft they use. I know they felt differently when they applied for the route earlier, but what's changed since then? Has the sequester softened demand for travel to/from DCA? Maybe other issues that I'm unable to think of right now?

LoneStarMike



P.S. You mentioned RIC having nonstop service to DCA What airline serves that route nonstop? I thought it might be US, but I checked for a random date (Monday July 8) and only saw connections through PHL. I don't know who in their right mind would even want to fly between RIC & DCA. It's only 94 air-miles.


[Edited 2013-06-10 00:46:22]

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: GentFromAlaska
Posted 2013-06-10 06:29:23 and read 1923 times.

Given the 24/7 traffic congestion around the I-495 beltway DOT should have awarded WN several inter-perimeter slots DCA-BWI; Problem fixed. What a ideal use for the 717 had they not sold/leased them to DL.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: gizmonc
Posted 2013-06-10 06:33:19 and read 1925 times.

Quoting Lambertman (Reply 15):
Does anyone know how the STL service has done? I've flown it six times so far and to me the loads have looked pretty strong. Hopefully when DAL's restrictions are lifted we don't lose any frequencies...

The loads STL DCA are strong, yesterday it was oversold on the PM flight, that ac flies to DCA turns and comes back to STL the return load is strong as it arrives STL with time to make lots of connections to the midwest.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-06-10 07:35:51 and read 1811 times.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 54):
The US Census estimated that the MSA added 20,744 new residents from 2011 to 2012 for a growth rate of 1.6% - not 3 or 4 percent annually as you stated earlier.

Sorry the 3.5% was based off of 2012 vs 2010 from the source I was look at in.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 54):
So five of the cities smaller than Oklahoma City still have more passengers

I would hazard to guess most of those have more nonstop destinations as well or at least more frequency due to being in a higher density part of the country.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 54):
Obviously WN would be offering mainline service and maybe they don't feel like there's enough demand to serve it economically with the aircraft they use. I know they felt differently when they applied for the route earlier, but what's changed since then? Has the sequester softened demand for travel to/from DCA? Maybe other issues that I'm unable to think of right now?

There are obviously furloughs that will be taking place, but they are pretty minimal in their impact overall. Since then nothing much has really changed to shy away from offering the service.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 54):
You mentioned RIC having nonstop service to DCA What airline serves that route nonstop?

As I was typing out the list of cities I just inadvertently typed in RIC as well.

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: LoneStarMike
Posted 2013-06-10 11:05:48 and read 1638 times.

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 56):
Quoting Lambertman (Reply 15):
Does anyone know how the STL service has done? I've flown it six times so far and to me the loads have looked pretty strong. Hopefully when DAL's restrictions are lifted we don't lose any frequencies...

The loads STL DCA are strong, yesterday it was oversold on the PM flight, that ac flies to DCA turns and comes back to STL the return load is strong as it arrives STL with time to make lots of connections to the midwest.

This is the O&D data for STL-DCA from the latest 4 quarters. The passenger counts include people traveling in both directions, not PDEW. Divide the passenger counts below by two to get the average PDEW passenger counts.

source (Domestic Airline Consumer Airfare Report Table 1a)

Q1 2012 - 380 daily passengers - AA market share 75% US market share 11.14%
Q2 2012 - 457 daily passengers - AA market share 66% FL market share 12.7%
Q3 2012 - 411 daily passengers - AA market share 64.3% WN market share 15.3%
Q4 2012 - 524 daily passengers - AA market share 46.5% WN market share 37.9%

Down in Austin, something similar happened after WN began their 1 daily AUS-DCA nonstop last July.

Q1 2012 - 207 daily passengers - AA market share 46.4% US market share 18.4%
Q2 2012 - 241 daily passengers - AA market share 58.0% (AA was also the low fare carrier that quarter.)
Q3 2012 - 300 daily passengers - WN market share 49.8% (WN was also the low fare carrier that quarter.)
Q4 2012 - 355 daily passengers - WN market share 48.(% (WN was also the low fare fare carrier that quarter.)

Even though HOU-DCA nonstops haven't yet started on WN, perhaps they can tell by advance bookings that this city pair is going to perform better than they'd hoped and are going ahead and adding a second daily flight?

By comparison here is the data for OKC-DCA

Q1 2012 - 98 daily passengers - AA market share 69.7% (AA was also the low fare carrier that quarter.)
Q2 2012 - 110 daily passengers - AA market share 65.9% (AA was also the low fare carrier that quarter.)
Q3 2012 - 105 daily passengers - AA market share 65.8% (AA was also the low fare carrier that quarter.)
Q4 2012 - 83 daily passengers - AA market share 57.3% WN market share 12.2%

I'm not trying to diss OKC or say it doesn't deserve nonstop service to DCA, but I just don't think WN is the right airline to try to offer the service right now based on the current data and the fact that WN flies 143-seat aircraft.

LoneStarMike

Topic: RE: WN DCA Slot Shift!
Username: ouboy79
Posted 2013-06-10 13:52:32 and read 1499 times.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 58):
I'm not trying to diss OKC or say it doesn't deserve nonstop service to DCA, but I just don't think WN is the right airline to try to offer the service right now based on the current data and the fact that WN flies 143-seat aircraft.

I would imagine most of the market right now puts up with using IAD (63 pax) and BWI (242 pax). If/when DCA would launch there would obviously be some shift in the market. Let's not discount that WN's own market study had us carrying roughly 100 local passengers per flight, and then fill up the rest with connections.

If its anyone else but WN, it probably needs to be an 70-90 seat aircraft. If its WN, you have feed from the network that can fill up the last couple dozen seats left.


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