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Topic: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-06-08 23:36:21 and read 13356 times.

Appears EK are satisfied with the A380 performance & keen to order more.

However, an additional order by Emirates of Airbus A380s will depend on the infrastructure at Dubai Airport.

It's not the number of available gates that are limiting capacity at DXB...it's a lack of usable runways and airspace limitations. The two closely-spaced parallel runways are already scheduled far beyond capacity during many hours of the day. 0700-1000 and 2000-0300 are periods that almost always result in airborne holding and extensive gate holds for departures due to saturation over the same departure fixes.

http://atwonline.com/airframes/emira...n-depends-dubai-space-availability

EK8413

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: scouseflyer
Posted 2013-06-09 00:49:24 and read 13048 times.

Isn't that expansion what DWP/JXB was all about with its 6 (!) runways?

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: mozart
Posted 2013-06-09 01:06:26 and read 12947 times.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 1):

Isn't that expansion what DWP/JXB was all about with its 6 (!) runways?

Yes. But that the trouble is that >85% of the traffic that clogs the airspace at the indicated hours (0700-1000, 2000-0300) is Emirates. And Emirates doesn't move to DWP, at least not in the foreseeable future. Instead, another concourse is added at DXB.

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-06-09 01:14:55 and read 12911 times.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 1):

Isn't that expansion what DWP/JXB was all about with its 6 (!) runways?

I am not sure, but I do believe that Emirates Airline has stated before that it expects to relocate to the new airport if DXB reaches capacity.

The official code for Dubai World Airport is DWC & the airport will have 5 runways once constructed.

EK8413

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2013-06-09 01:40:13 and read 12745 times.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 3):
I am not sure, but I do believe that Emirates Airline has stated before that it expects to relocate to the new airport if DXB reaches capacity.

They seem to go back and forth with the plan. Right now it seems to be others will go to DWC at first, with EK staying at DXB in the short term, but that plan seems to be constantly changing (or they're keeping their decision private).

Anyway, the problem, as stated in the OP, is not just runway on ground, but also in the air, and EK still haven't received half of their A380's. I'm sure however, that the UAE government is working on a plan, maybe something very unique to relieve air traffic problems.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-06-09 04:53:48 and read 12054 times.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 4):
They seem to go back and forth with the plan. Right now it seems to be others will go to DWC at first, with EK staying at DXB in the short term, but that plan seems to be constantly changing (or they're keeping their decision private).

I've really never understood why invest in DXB opposed to DWC    EK8413

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2013-06-09 06:37:16 and read 11693 times.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 5):
I've really never understood why invest in DXB opposed to DWC

Same, especially for such a transfer oriented carrier. Other carriers, like BA, etc. would have almost only O&D pax on the Dubai end, so could understand them wanting to stay in DXB, which would be closer to the city. Although, it seems the city is growing more towards the south (and into the sea), so DWC seems to becoming closer and closer to the population centre. I guess, EK don't want to give the other carriers any type of advantage, even if DWC could really be tailored for them.

Thinking huge world-class terminal designed for their growth from the outset.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: VTORD
Posted 2013-06-09 07:11:41 and read 11434 times.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 6):
Same, especially for such a transfer oriented carrier. Other carriers, like BA, etc. would have almost only O&D pax on the Dubai end

EK has a lot of O&D from India, Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. 85% of the workforce in the UAE is comprised of people from these nations and the Philippines. Many of these people live / work in Sharjah, Ajman and Ras-al-Khaima, and prefer DXB.

Now I may be totally off target here as it has been 5 years since I lived there but DWC is near Jebel Ali which might as well be the other end of the world for the people in Sharjah and Ajman. Though I am sure they had thought of this when they built it.

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: sierra3tango
Posted 2013-06-09 07:25:41 and read 11260 times.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 5):
I've really never understood why invest in DXB opposed to DWC EK8413

Guessing here, but its probably cheaper to build extra terminals at DXB rather than at least 2 more runways at DWC, plus the terminals and infrastructure needed to handle ?70/80m Pax in one big hit.

DWC is initially being developed as a freight airport with exceptional road links to Jebel Ali Port (13 m TEU in 2012) for sea / air transport/ transhipment of goods.

With SHJ / DXB / DWC and AUH all within ~120 miles of each other and also the proximity of the Iranian and Omani FIR, it appears that the problem is as much in air as it is runway capacity (though that doesn't help). Had a mate fairly recently diverted (on a MAN / DXB A380) diverted to Al Ain for a splash & dash after interminable holding for DXB.

Apparently a study to improve the situation is ongoing with UAE & Bahrain (FIR) doing a recent deal on 3 new airways, but if you look on the charts the UAE FIR is relatively quite small, especially as the Western Region of the country (from AUH up to the Saudi border not having any worthwhile airways.

DWC would assist in the runway availability

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: larspl
Posted 2013-06-09 09:53:36 and read 9698 times.

why do you think EK is looking at flights from i.e. MXP to NYC?
because their capacity at Dubai can't keep up with the fleet expansion..
proximity to the city doesn't really matter if its DXB or DWC,.

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: cuban8
Posted 2013-06-09 11:38:02 and read 8829 times.

Quoting EK413 (Thread starter):
However, an additional order by Emirates of Airbus A380s will depend on the infrastructure at Dubai Airport

Which will be very interesting while they work on one of the runways this summer. Expect further delays with one runway operation!!!

Quoting VTORD (Reply 7):
EK has a lot of O&D from India, Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. 85% of the workforce in the UAE is comprised of people from these nations and the Philippines. Many of these people live / work in Sharjah, Ajman and Ras-al-Khaima, and prefer DXB.

I believe so too. Kicking out flydubai, the foreign carriers and the business jets would give them some extra slots though.

Quoting VTORD (Reply 7):
Now I may be totally off target here as it has been 5 years since I lived there but DWC is near Jebel Ali which might as well be the other end of the world for the people in Sharjah and Ajman.

Well, even from Dubai it feels like the end of the world for most people. Expect at least one hour drive from Downtown Dubai and 45 min drive from Dubai Marina....

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 8):
Had a mate fairly recently diverted (on a MAN / DXB A380) diverted to Al Ain for a splash & dash after interminable holding for DXB.

In that case, he was quite lucky still. One of the major problems right now in Dubai is where to divert. I believe Al Ain and Fujairah can receive a 3 wide-body's each; Sharjah about 5 and, Ras-al-Khaima 8 and Abu Dhabi 11. During peak-hours, this could fill up quite fast and EK would start looking at international diversions such as Doha, Bahrain and Muscat.

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: sierra3tango
Posted 2013-06-09 12:01:42 and read 8551 times.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 10):
Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 8):Had a mate fairly recently diverted (on a MAN / DXB A380) diverted to Al Ain for a splash & dash after interminable holding for DXB.
In that case, he was quite lucky still. One of the major problems right now in Dubai is where to divert. I believe Al Ain and Fujairah can receive a 3 wide-body's each; Sharjah about 5 and, Ras-al-Khaima 8 and Abu Dhabi 11. During peak-hours, this could fill up quite fast and EK would start looking at international diversions such as Doha, Bahrain and Muscat.

Well last time I looked (about 3 months ago) RAK had (remote) stands with the old GF 5 star Tristars parked up (quite apart from loads of other stuff inc ex QF freighters) and Fujairah is full of Russian tails.

Maybe those airports should get should rid of them & make some money out of EK diversions, especially with the runway repairs coming up!

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: caliatenza
Posted 2013-06-09 12:14:33 and read 8439 times.

When will EK be receiving the increased MTOW A380's...?

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: KarelXWB
Posted 2013-06-09 13:41:13 and read 7719 times.

No surprise here, Clark is saying this for years.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 4):
Anyway, the problem, as stated in the OP, is not just runway on ground, but also in the air, and EK still haven't received half of their A380's. I'm sure however, that the UAE government is working on a plan, maybe something very unique to relieve air traffic problems.

They're definitely working on a plan, two months ago an UAE boss hinted at an A380 order later this year.

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-06-09 14:08:27 and read 7494 times.

This hardly sounds like Dubai and its bounty of cash. It's not like money to build additional runways at DXB is lacking so what is the real story?

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-06-09 16:18:58 and read 6714 times.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 10):
Which will be very interesting while they work on one of the runways this summer. Expect further delays with one runway operation!!!

That will be a crippling short term issue. I'm still shocked a better solution couldn't be found. Note: I know nothing but the basics I've witnessed of runway refurbishment, but that was at an airfield that simply built a new parallel runway as they rebuilt the main runway.

Quoting EK413 (Thread starter):
0700-1000 and 2000-0300 are periods that almost always result in airborne holding and extensive gate holds for departures due to saturation over the same departure fixes.

This has two issues:
1. The UAE does not recognize the axial spacing and providing a benefit which slows operations.
2. DXB, AUH, and DOH require a coordinated airspace to 'space out' approaches. That is something that has been in work a long time, but no resolution in sight.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 1):

Isn't that expansion what DWP/JXB was all about with its 6 (!) runways?

The lack of funds is inhibiting DWC expansion. To move EK over work start at $18 billion and the full built out airport is estimated at $62 billion. There simply are not the funds today. Right now EK is keeping Dubai afloat, not the other way around. So there are funds for a few billion at DXB, but not to build out DWC.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 5):
I've really never understood why invest in DXB opposed to DWC

They have to pay for it and they simply do not have the funds today. While EK is profitable, look at their annual reports. They simply do not have $18 billion lying around to build out DWC (at the minimum).

Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):
This hardly sounds like Dubai and its bounty of cash.

What cash? Did you miss some of the non-government defaults? Dubai is having to economize.

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 12):
When will EK be receiving the increased MTOW A380's...?

Right after BA. So in a month or two. It will not be obvious for the first few months they will fly existing routes to prove them. After that, we can expect to see IAH, LAX, and possibly GRU with the longer range aircraft.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 10):
One of the major problems right now in Dubai is where to divert.

DWC will shortly be ready to handle dozens of widebodies. But that is an assumption on non-weather diversions.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 10):
Kicking out flydubai, the foreign carriers and the business jets would give them some extra slots though.

When they move FlyDubai, I speculate the minimum landing fees at DXB will spike to 'encourage' movement to DWC.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-06-09 16:51:13 and read 6509 times.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 6):
Same, especially for such a transfer oriented carrier. Other carriers, like BA, etc.

Agreed, the proximity of being so close to city centre is attractive to many carriers and DWC suitable in the meantime for LCC services.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 8):
Guessing here, but its probably cheaper to build extra terminals at DXB rather than at least 2 more runways at DWC, plus the terminals and infrastructure needed to handle ?70/80m Pax in one big hit.

I ain't arguing with your points but wouldn't it be wise to build now & gradually move carriers to the new airport opposed to the continued investment at DXB which has another Terminal under construction as we speak.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 10):
Which will be very interesting while they work on one of the runways this summer. Expect further delays with one runway operation!!!

Going to be very interesting and probably going to steal the title off LGW.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):

This hardly sounds like Dubai and its bounty of cash. It's not like money to build additional runways at DXB is lacking so what is the real story?

Land. Not sure if you've seen an aerial shot of DXB but there certainly ain't any room.

http://alec.ae/media/19752/lead-panel-2.jpg

http://alec.ae/media/19746/lead-panel.jpg

http://routes-news.com/media/k2/items/cache/7ab716354432ee12f19b58c60471093b_XL.jpg

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
They have to pay for it and they simply do not have the funds today. While EK is profitable, look at their annual reports. They simply do not have $18 billion lying around to build out DWC (at the minimum).

They probably don't have $18 billion today but there will eventually be a need to bite the bullet and invest in DWC.

In this plan you can see it clearly outlined in the orange area, along with the first runway. The rest of the terminals and runways are greyed out.

http://www.dwc.ae/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/image_dwc_masterplan.jpg

This satellite image shows it off a little more clearly:

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1986/almaktoumairport.jpg

EK8413

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-06-09 17:12:43 and read 6383 times.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 16):
Land. Not sure if you've seen an aerial shot of DXB but there certainly ain't any room.

First, excellent post, thank you.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 16):
They probably don't have $18 billion today but there will eventually be a need to bite the bullet and invest in DWC.

Agreed. EK is back to making good profits. But IMHO there isn't that much leftover money in Dubai to do so for the next two years. Hence why the investment in Concourse D/T1. After that, EK will have to divert money over to DWC that will not see a return on investment until the move. There simply isn't enough money to allow EK to move over before 2020 at the earliest and 2027 at the outside. We can debate on the exact year, but that is the reasonable range of timeframes for the move of EK to DWC.

Some of that timeframe will depend on the success of TK/EY/QR, the growth of the European economy, and EK access to China. Since all three of those are outside of EK's control (well, some influence on the third), I can do no better than to predict a window at this time for the transition of EK to DWC.

We can agree the investment is needed. But honestly, if Dubai had the chance to build a Disneyland first, that would be a better long term investment for the city. Since there will be numerous other projects in the city that divert funds away from DWC, I think my timeframes are reasonable.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-06-09 23:13:15 and read 4895 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17):
First, excellent post, thank you.

Your welcome, thought it wasn't much of a discussion thread without any pictures 
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17):
We can agree the investment is needed. But honestly, if Dubai had the chance to build a Disneyland first, that would be a better long term investment for the city. Since there will be numerous other projects in the city that divert funds away from DWC, I think my timeframes are reasonable.

Is Disneyland a separate project all together OR is it part of Dubailand?

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/3941/dscn34061bw.jpg

kids world:

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/4756/dscn33172ra.jpg

Arabian Theme Park:

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/4659/dscn33149at.jpg

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/1605/dscn33158kh.jpg

Global Village:

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/2641/dscn33679sn.jpg

Earth/Fire Golf Course in Golf World:



Dubai Walk:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4503/dscn32684on.jpg

Teen World:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2624/dscn35619nx.jpg

Retail and Entertainment World

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6291/dscn32726te.jpg

Falcon City

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/5361/falconcity12zt.jpg

EK8413

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: airlineecon
Posted 2013-06-09 23:55:33 and read 4639 times.

The lack of airspace is precisely the reason EK needs to order more A380s! They need to substitute away from "Small" 777s towards the big jets to make the most of the congested airspace conditions.

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-06-10 00:35:24 and read 4542 times.

Quoting airlineecon (Reply 19):
The lack of airspace is precisely the reason EK needs to order more A380s!

Introducing more A380's only make's the airspace issue even worse.

The more A380s EK throws into the mix, the more the problem is compounded due to the increased wake turbulence spacing requirements. 6-7 mile spacing for heavies or mediums behind a 380 leaves huge, unusable space on final that can never be reclaimed. 3 minutes behind a 380 on departure with a trailing medium (737/A320) also slows down things to a crawl.

EK8413

[Edited 2013-06-10 00:36:07]

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: CXfirst
Posted 2013-06-10 01:35:58 and read 4398 times.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 8):
Guessing here, but its probably cheaper to build extra terminals at DXB rather than at least 2 more runways at DWC, plus the terminals and infrastructure needed to handle ?70/80m Pax in one big hit.

But it is clear. DXB doesn't have much room to grow. There is the new concourse 4 towards the West, which I believe will be made for carriers other than EK, while the oldest concourse where other carriers (and some EK) are now will become an EK concourse (so that entire long concourse plus the new concourse 3 will be EK).

After that, I simply don't see where they can expand, and that expansion is not enough for the planes EK has ordered (unless EK start a new hub - unlikely in my opinion).

So now, they are sinking costs into an airport that will be insufficient soon (already is), so eventually they will have to incur that large cost to develop DWC into a massive airport.

-CXfirst

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-06-10 03:31:01 and read 4186 times.

Since you asked further expansion is in the pipeline with E reserved for future development... The below article and image will give you an idea of what's planned for DXB. Really left me scratching my head!

http://i46.tinypic.com/2zsn2wj.jpg

The new $4.5*billion Terminal 3 opened on 14 October 2008, and was built exclusively for the use of Emirates Airline. From April 2013, Qantas will begin flying to Dubai International Airport and share the exclusive Terminal 3 with Emirates as part of their new Alliance. Concourse A is also part of Terminal 3, and is expected to open on 1 January 2013. It will be built exclusively for the Emirates Airbus A380, and Qantas will also utilize the concourse. Terminal 3 is the second largest building in the world by floor space and the largest airport terminal in the world, increasing the total capacity of the airport to over 62 million passengers. The airport's capacity will increase to more than 80 million passengers annually in 2013 when Concourse A opens. Further extensions to Terminal 2 are also currently being made. The airport revealed its future plans in May 2011, which involve construction of a new Concourse D, for all airlines currently operating from concourse C. Concourse D is expected to bring the total capacity of the airport to over 90 million passengers, and will be operating by 2018. The plan also involves Emirates solely operating from Concourse C along with Concourse A and B which it will already be operating. Dubai International Airport will be complemented by Al Maktoum International Airport (Dubai World Central International Airport), a new 140*km2 (54*sq*mi) airport that will help handle the influx of travellers well into the future.It began cargo operations on 27 June 2010 and was expected to begin passenger operations in March 2011 but has been further delayed to 2012.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_International_Airport

EK8413

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-06-10 05:58:59 and read 4005 times.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 18):
Is Disneyland a separate project all together OR is it part of Dubailand?

Its more of a pipe dream at this point to have Disney in the Mid-East, but there is demand. Due to ease of travel, I would expect it to be located near DXB, AUH, or DOH.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 22):
The below article and image will give you an idea of what's planned for DXB. Really left me scratching my head!

Actually, it really simplifies the naming of the concourses. Since EK/Dubai lacks the 'ready cash' to build out DWC ($18Billion USD), they will instead keep investing in DXB.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 21):
DXB doesn't have much room to grow. There is the new concourse 4 towards the West, which I believe will be made for carriers other than EK, while the oldest concourse where other carriers (and some EK) are now will become an EK concourse (so that entire long concourse plus the new concourse 3 will be EK).

A, B, and C for EK... amazing.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 21):
so eventually they will have to incur that large cost to develop DWC into a massive airport.

Agreed. But what can they do otherwise? They simply cannot borrow the $12 billion difference at this time. Eventually they have to build out DWC, but to do so they need more funds from EK which will only happen if there is expansion at DXB. In rough terms, the payback for expansion at DXB should be within 5 to 7 years, so the money will be recovered.

Within 5 years, EK will have to start funding DWC growth. But for now, the best time value of money is expanding DXB.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: AyostoLeon
Posted 2013-06-10 06:43:46 and read 3934 times.

Dubai Airports is certainly putting a lot of money into Terminal expansions to accommodate extra passengers but they are still constrained by both efficient airspace use and having just two runways. The first requires co-operation and co-ordination with the UAE's neighbours but this is taking time as each party might be asking, "what's in it for us?" There are still large parts of airspace that are off-limits for various reasons, which also puts strains on the available space.

Aside from the projected resurfacing/ rebuilding works projected, the runway issues are being addressed in part by providing additional exit points and taxi-ways to reduce times on the runway and avoid crossovers that occur. Additionally, EK will need to introduce (and have begun to do so) additional banks so that the pressure in the existing peak periods is reduced. But one limitation could be the ability to set arrival and departure times without worrying about access rights or curfews at destinations served. If EK is only able to operate once a day it needs to set its departure to coincide with the greatest number of probable connections without lengthy layovers.

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: airbazar
Posted 2013-06-10 07:52:13 and read 3911 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
What cash? Did you miss some of the non-government defaults? Dubai is having to economize.

I guess I did but somehow they are still building like crazy. See reply 18. They may be down but definitely not out   And it's not like this issue couldn't be predicted 5-10 years ago. Again, it's very surprising that DXB finds itself in this predicament considering the transformation that Dubai has gone through in the last 2 decades. This hardly sounds like Dubai.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 16):
Land. Not sure if you've seen an aerial shot of DXB but there certainly ain't any room.

It's Dubai, it's not London. Hint: "Imminent domain" is achievable a lot easier   Even Singapore had no problem relocating a bunch of people and wiping out entire fishing villages in order to expand SIN.
On a more serious note, it's still shocking to me that they allowed the city to grow around the airport and are now caught without any good solutions.

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-06-10 08:17:43 and read 3873 times.

The investment continues

Client: Emirates Airlines
Consultant: ADPI
Contract Value: USD $123 million
Status: Expected Completion 2014

Design and Construction of four Aircraft Hangar Bays to carry out aircraft light maintenance for various sized aircrafts, including the A380, to be erected at the existing West Apron at Emirates Engineering, Dubai International Airport with the existing concrete slab to be maintained. Works include service areas, nose dock assemblies and external works.

http://www.jandp-group.com/project.asp?pid=1007&id=1

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
Its more of a pipe dream at this point to have Disney in the Mid-East, but there is demand. Due to ease of travel, I would expect it to be located near DXB, AUH, or DOH.

So what our saying is we can probably expect a Disneyland to be built split between the 3 DXB, AUH & DOH?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
Actually, it really simplifies the naming of the concourses. Since EK/Dubai lacks the 'ready cash' to build out DWC ($18Billion USD), they will instead keep investing in DXB.

Now it's making some sense. Invest in the existing infrastructure & build it later with their returns from the investments.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
It's Dubai, it's not London. Hint: "Imminent domain" is achievable a lot easier Even Singapore had no problem relocating a bunch of people and wiping out entire fishing villages in order to expand SIN.

What's wrong with LHR??? 

Wasn't SIN a non existent man made island?

EK8413

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: AyostoLeon
Posted 2013-06-10 10:08:14 and read 3766 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
It's Dubai, it's not London. Hint: "Imminent domain" is achievable a lot easier Even Singapore had no problem relocating a bunch of people and wiping out entire fishing villages in order to expand SIN.

I think that there may be a difference between relocating a "fishing village" and asking foreign investors who have invested millions in prime real estate to "up stumps." The locals might have little comeback but investors can be very choosy about where to expose themselves to risk. Arbitrary resumptions could undermine both direct investment in property in Dubai but also that of the banks who continue to be concerned that the Emirate might push lenders into a second round of debt restructuring if there is no improvement in asset sales. (As an aside, I do wonder how much these concerns may influence any decision on floating the highly profitable Emirates Group.)

Reading the news, Dubai (the Emirate, not the airport) is recovering from the effects of the GFC, though not immune from further shocks. It will be making progress payments on loans as expected but it still has another tranche of loans that may need to be renegotiated in 2014-16. Dubai and its state firms have an estimated $48 billion of debt in the bond and loan markets due to mature between 2014 and 2016, which includes about $10 billion in restructured debt at Dubai World and Nakheel. Part of its bailout in 2009 was a restructuring plan that envisaged the sale of some assets to meet obligations, but there still has been little progress with sales. In the meantime, Sheikh Ahmed has hinted that they are looking at various other options, including new forms of bonds, and holding off on asset sales because in six months conditions may have improved (i.e. any sales may result in higher returns.)

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: AT
Posted 2013-06-10 10:43:05 and read 3697 times.

Regarding Dubai airport, I seem to remember that in the 1980s and 1990s, the two runways were not parallel but were in a V shape with perhaps 10 or 20 degrees difference? Is this correct or is my memory serving me wrong?

Then when they switched to parallel layout, for many years the runways were not staggered.
Does anyone know how many additional takeoffs / landings the staggered configuration allows? I suppose it could allow two simultaneous landings, but at DXB rarely are the two runways simultaneously used for takeoffs, or for landings....

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: AyostoLeon
Posted 2013-06-10 12:07:14 and read 3604 times.

Quoting AT (Reply 28):
but at DXB rarely are the two runways simultaneously used for takeoffs, or for landings....

I was in Dubai in 1974 but I admit to not recalling what the layout was like, although I think there might have been only one runway at the time. It certainly was a lot simpler and we still had to walk from the aircraft to the terminal. The aircraft was a favourite of mine, the VC10  

The staggered runways aren't all that far apart and DXB was still allowing aircraft to cross one runway to reach the other on some of the flights that I have been on. This meant additional hold times on the ground and restricted the use of the runway for landings. This was a while ago, so I do not know to what extent that has changed but I am aware of plans to build additional egress points and runways that avoid a cross-over altogether.

While plans are in place to relocate cargo and charter flights to DWC next year during resurfacing, despite the request to airlines to alter or reduce schedules, I do wonder how the airport will cope in peak periods, given the lengthening delays that are already experienced.

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-06-10 12:14:03 and read 3579 times.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
They may be down but definitely not out

I do not imply Dubai is out. They're just having to 'economize' which is not very Dubai.  
Quoting EK413 (Reply 26):
So what our saying is we can probably expect a Disneyland to be built split between the 3 DXB, AUH & DOH?

I'm saying there is a business case. Most Disneylands are built 10 to 15 years after there is a business case...

Quoting EK413 (Reply 26):
Now it's making some sense. Invest in the existing infrastructure & build it later with their returns from the investments.

Exactly. While the new infrastructure takes up cash in the short term, by expanding DXB/EK, it frees up funds to build DWC. Otherwise, all work would have to stop at DXB as EK waits 5 to 7 years for DWC to be built while the new airport sucks up all their profits.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 26):
What's wrong with LHR???

They haven't let me be in charge of the bulldozers.   

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: AT
Posted 2013-06-10 13:00:00 and read 3467 times.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 29):
While plans are in place to relocate cargo and charter flights to DWC next year during resurfacing,

Oh this is the first I am hearing of the resurfacing? which areas are being resurfaced?

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: PW100
Posted 2013-06-10 13:38:24 and read 3402 times.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 20):
The more A380s EK throws into the mix, the more the problem is compounded due to the increased wake turbulence spacing requirements. 6-7 mile spacing for heavies or mediums behind a 380 leaves huge, unusable space on final that can never be reclaimed. 3 minutes behind a 380 on departure with a trailing medium (737/A320) also slows down things to a crawl

Well since there are already a lot of A380 movements (EK is now at, what 30 or so?), further A380's might even help reduce the congestion, as there will be more and more A380 in sequence, rather than "small" A330 and 777 following A380's.

Secondly, and this is where I am quite curious as I am unfamiliar with DXB traffic patterns. I could imagine that given the runway stagger, they could alternate the landings. So A380 landing on RH runway, with the smaller traffic following for the LH runway at 3-4 nm interval (in case of wind direction from the right - otherwise vice versa). This way the A380 wake will roll away from the runway for the smaller traffic. The next approach for the A380 runway will then have at least 6 nm spacing. This is already sufficient for an A330 or 777.

PW100

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: EK413
Posted 2013-06-10 17:02:46 and read 3228 times.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 32):
Well since there are already a lot of A380 movements (EK is now at, what 30 or so?), further A380's might even help reduce the congestion, as there will be more and more A380 in sequence, rather than "small" A330 and 777 following A380's.

EK have 34 A380's with a further 56 frames on order. EK will have 47 frames join the fleet by 2014 which is a massive accomplishment by EK & Airbus too!

Quoting PW100 (Reply 32):
Secondly, and this is where I am quite curious as I am unfamiliar with DXB traffic patterns

I did a search attempting to dig up details concerning DXB and their traffic pattern but referring back to my original link the airborne holding patterns are around the busy banks. Once EK introduce more A380's this will only worsen.

It's not the number of available gates that are limiting capacity at DXB...it's a lack of usable runways and airspace limitations. The two closely-spaced parallel runways are already scheduled far beyond capacity during many hours of the day. 0700-1000 and 2000-0300 are periods that almost always result in airborne holding and extensive gate holds for departures due to saturation over the same departure fixes.

Emirates operate well over +100 B777 & total of 90 A380s on order. Tim Clarke has hinted the airline is considering topping up the order, however the challenge faced by the airline is the airway space in DXB which is becoming a major hurdle. An example would be QF rescheduling the QF0001 SYD-DXB service which departs 15 minutes earlier to reduce delays in DXB.

EK8413

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: RyanairGuru
Posted 2013-06-10 17:30:35 and read 3197 times.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 26):
So what our saying is we can probably expect a Disneyland to be built split between the 3 DXB, AUH & DOH?

IMHO there will only be one, and it will go to the highest bidder. I'd put my money on Qatar

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: AirIndia
Posted 2013-06-10 19:19:37 and read 3104 times.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 34):
I'd put my money on Qatar

currently all their funds are stuck with the WC 2022 infra development. Besides, DOH with just a Disneyland may not be all that attractive for families..... DXB or AUH will have a better case......

Topic: RE: EK A380 Expansion Depends On DXB Airspace
Username: AyostoLeon
Posted 2013-06-10 20:18:46 and read 3029 times.

Quoting AT (Reply 31):
Oh this is the first I am hearing of the resurfacing? which areas are being resurfaced?

There are plans for work on both runways that involve both resurfacing and the northern runway and to upgrade runway lighting and construct new taxiways on the southern runway. More details can be found at http://www.ameinfo.com/dubai-airports-upgrade-runways-2014-340889


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