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Topic: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-06-17 13:45:34 and read 8966 times.

Has it been announced yet how the seniority issue will be handled by the three different pilot unions at the three airlines ?I can see this being a very bitter flight between the the three groups as evidenced by the turmoil between the two unions at HP and US that has been going on for years with no resolution

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: azjubilee
Posted 2013-06-17 13:47:23 and read 8975 times.

Grab the popcorn, this is going to be one SLI battle with lots of fireworks!

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: catiii
Posted 2013-06-17 14:12:41 and read 8833 times.

It'll go something like this, but only less cordially: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJVsS-vIDdc

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: Flaps
Posted 2013-06-17 14:18:12 and read 8781 times.

Its gonna be ugly, ugly, ugly. It will be interesting to see if they can even pull it off. Plenty of discussion fodder for these forums though, that's for certain.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2013-06-17 14:36:42 and read 8677 times.

The integration is spelled out in the AA and US labor agreements which were widely approved by both groups back in February.

In simplistic terms, US pilots would be brought up to AA pay levels (a 13-35% bump), with the AA pilot contract becoming the baseline for the unified group.
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

Any disputes arising would be sent to binding arbitration.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-06-17 15:00:13 and read 8530 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
The integration is spelled out in the AA and US labor agreements which were widely approved by both groups back in February.

In simplistic terms, US pilots would be brought up to AA pay levels (a 13-35% bump), with the AA pilot contract becoming the baseline for the unified group.
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

Any disputes arising would be sent to binding arbitration.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
The integration is spelled out in the AA and US labor agreements which were widely approved by both groups back in February.

In simplistic terms, US pilots would be brought up to AA pay levels (a 13-35% bump), with the AA pilot contract becoming the baseline for the unified group.
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

Any disputes arising would be sent to binding arbitration.

What about the HP pilots who belong to a differant union than the AA or US pilots As far as binding arbitration goes, the world is still waiting for the US pilots to live up to their binding arbitration wih HP pilots. You gave story about the pay but neglected the seniopity issue

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2013-06-17 15:06:12 and read 8506 times.

Quoting bobnwa (Thread starter):
Has it been announced yet how the seniority issue will be handled by the three different pilot unions at the three airlines ?

Two groups, and two unions. APA at AA, and USAPA at US. The HP (aka US West) pilots are technically/legally represented by USAPA, though USAPA hasn't even demonstrated it can represent the US East pilot interests, other than pushing a specific seniority scheme and ignoring a valid arbitration. The US East group has the lowest compensation of any major airline. That alone speaks volumes.

USAPA and APA will both have to present a seniority list. APA's list is not under question. USAPA's is. USAPA wants to present a list based on date of hire, vs the legally arbitrated list that combined HP and US seniority lists. As soon as they submit anything other than the arbitrated list, the West pilots have a valid legal case against USAPA, with possible culpability extending to any other party who participates in the use of the alternate list. In this case, US Airways, American, and APA.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Any disputes arising would be sent to binding arbitration.

Some think the SLI may go to a three way arbitration. But, the East pilots have already demonstrated their word and honor of arbitration is nil.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

No doubt, the surviving union will be APA. They out number USAPA members by far, and the West pilots will all support APA. APA is sharp enough to not get drug into the East vs West battle, and will insist on a legally acceptable list being submitted for negotiations, and eventual arbitration.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: nws2002
Posted 2013-06-17 15:17:15 and read 8450 times.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6):
But, the East pilots have already demonstrated their word and honor of arbitration is nil.

I still fail to understand how binding arbitration isn't binding to USAPA.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: Flaps
Posted 2013-06-17 15:22:47 and read 8413 times.

Keep dreaming. Its going to be a bloodbath with every group out for themselves.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: UnitedTristar
Posted 2013-06-17 15:31:10 and read 8378 times.

So I have a friend from college who was furloughed TW, US & HP and was recently recalled, what Sr does he get???

-m

  

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: jayunited
Posted 2013-06-17 15:35:27 and read 8351 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
The integration is spelled out in the AA and US labor agreements which were widely approved by both groups back in February.

In simplistic terms, US pilots would be brought up to AA pay levels (a 13-35% bump), with the AA pilot contract becoming the baseline for the unified group.
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

Any disputes arising would be sent to binding arbitration.

So this is written into US/HP current but separate pilot contracts is it a legally binding document?? Because if it is not who is to say that US Airways management will keep their word? It would be beneficial for US/AA management to leave the US/HP pilots pay right where it is until they have a contract because they would save money. It is the right thing to do of course not the right thing to do is to honor your word that you gave to your pilots but if it is just an agreement and not contractual who is going to make US/AA pay up?

And it still does not deal with the major issue of seniority integration if US management can't integrate 2 pilot unions and they've had at least 7 years to do so how long will it take US/AA management to integrate 3 pilot unions and AA's pilot union is not about to go to the back of the line when dealing with this issue.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: ripcordd
Posted 2013-06-17 16:06:27 and read 8218 times.

how hard is to go with date of hire

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: tugger
Posted 2013-06-17 16:12:43 and read 8175 times.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 11):
how hard is to go with date of hire

In this case it is easier, but with HP and US you had a much younger airline essentially taking over an airline with a much older date of hire group (pilots in this case) and that makes it more complicated (it not wise or good management to abandon and essentially screw over the employees -pilots- that helped get you the position that enabled you to take over/merge/buy/integrate with the other airline).

Tugg

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: azjubilee
Posted 2013-06-17 16:13:38 and read 8177 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
The integration is spelled out in the AA and US labor agreements which were widely approved by both groups back in February.

In simplistic terms, US pilots would be brought up to AA pay levels (a 13-35% bump), with the AA pilot contract becoming the baseline for the unified group.
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

Any disputes arising would be sent to binding arbitration.

Easier said than done. Just ask the Mesaba, Pinnacle and Colgan pilots how that three way marriage worked out. Further, an arbitrated award is what got HP and US into the current mess they're in. Just because it's arbitrated, doesn't make it any easier nor does it solve the problems.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: usxguy
Posted 2013-06-17 16:23:09 and read 8131 times.

What happened with US is that the arbitrator put a ton of US pilots at the VERY bottom of HP's list, because ALPA considered them 'furloughed' despite some 300 of them were flying USAirways aircraft (MidAtlantic, on the US operating certificate) while still paying ALPA dues. USAirways really messed this one up by calling the E170 an Express plane while operating it on the mainline certificate.

So you have these 300 or so pilots, some who have been flying *continuously* for 16 years, getting a paycheck from USAirways, being told their time at MDA didn't count, so they are behind 22/23 y/o FO's fresh out of a regional.

That's when the US pilots threw out ALPA before they could submit the list to US management and the new union came into play. Parker & Kirby haven't been pushing for a single contract either, they have been enjoying the economics of 2 separate work groups.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: nwcoflyer
Posted 2013-06-17 18:39:33 and read 7838 times.

So you have these 300 or so pilots, some who have been flying *continuously* for 16 years, getting a paycheck from USAirways, being told their time at MDA didn't count, so they are behind 22/23 y/o FO's fresh out of a regional.

Who at America West is 24???!!

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2013-06-17 19:19:56 and read 7716 times.

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 7):
I still fail to understand how binding arbitration isn't binding to USAPA.

You, and the rest of the world.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 11):
how hard is to go with date of hire

Date of hire would have taken HP captains and put them on the street in favor of US first officers who were on furlough for many years. Explain the fairness of that please sir.

This is the kind of issue in a merger of seniority lists that has to be considered by an arbitrator. In the end, they come up with a "Relative Seniority" position. As a general rule, you end up right at, or a percentage or two above/below where you were in your group, but at the same relative position in the combined group. The first 500 plus positions went to US captains. So the #1 HP captain now finds himself no longer #1. However, in the big picture, his relative position of seniority in the now bigger group, is no better or worse because of the dynamics of group size. The US guys that ended up on the bottom, were, in fact, on furlough from US. Doesn't matter that they were flying at another company that was ALPA or not, flying US express or not. They were on furlough. Nearly unemployed. DOH would have given them the jobs of another person. Another person who was flying for a carrier that wasn't on the verge of a repeat bankruptcy.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 13):
an arbitrated award is what got HP and US into the current mess they're in.

Negative. Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration. The US side reniged on that when the arbitration didn't come out to their liking.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 14):
Parker & Kirby haven't been pushing for a single contract either, they have been enjoying the economics of 2 separate work

There isn't much Parker or Kirby can do about the contract. It's all in USAPA's hands. Parker, Kirby, and the company have no say for the most part. It's a Labor issue that Labor has to solve before the company can negotiate in good faith. USAPA has handed the company a great deal on cheap pilot labor for many years.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: commavia
Posted 2013-06-17 19:32:27 and read 7666 times.

Right now, the whole situation is like the Balkans - everybody is playing nice for the cameras because they all want the money.

But in the end, as others have said, make no mistake: this seniority integration is going to get ugly, and inevitably end up in arbitration and then likely in the courts.

While USAPA's position may be that this will only involve two labor groups with two seniority list, we obviously know the West pilots don't feel that way (and for very good reason, in my opinion). They will drag USAPA into court in a second when given the opportunity.

The ultimate outcome - arbitrated, litigated, or otherwise - is necessarily going to be complex, with all sorts of quotas and fences (around aircraft, positions and/or domiciles). It is a virtual certainty that not everyone will be happy. The question is whether they can satisfy enough people to still make it work - as happened at Delta. Given the internal trench warfare that has plagued USAPA for years, that will be a challenge.

We shall see ...

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: AA94
Posted 2013-06-17 20:05:07 and read 7558 times.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
Negative. Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration. The US side reniged on that when the arbitration didn't come out to their liking.

I'm still struggling here. Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration. Isn't that non-negotiable?

I understand that US didn't like the way arbitration came out, but aren't they legally obligated to follow that course of action? I must be missing something, because this sounds too cut-and-dry to be problematic ...

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-06-17 20:11:09 and read 7534 times.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 14):

Those pilots were officially furloughed from US at the time. They had to be in order to take the "transfer" to Mid Atlantic.

As for the final arbitration award, the East pilot group presented that list to the arbitration panel and never filed an appeal after the arbitration.

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 11):
how hard is to go with date of hire

Extremely hard when it would take senior captains at one airline and make them junior FOs at the combined airline. At least with the arbitration award everyone maintained a similar seniority position relative to the full pilot group. Guys only moved a few percentage points one way or the other. In fact, most of the West guys actually lost ground in terms of percentages.

Unless you want to use date of issuance for a commercial ticket or ATP. That doesn't punish someone that moves from one airline to another. Hell, if you want to rank everyone by total hours flown, that makes more sense than simply with date of hire at a company. Especially when US Airways was created by a number of mergers over the years that were not handled by date of hire. I bet the TWA guys would love that too.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: azjubilee
Posted 2013-06-17 20:29:05 and read 7484 times.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
Negative. Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration. The US side reniged on that when the arbitration didn't come out to their liking.

I think we're saying the same thing. Arbitration is not always an easy solution and I cite the US/HP arbitration mess as a perfect example. So yes, arbitration got themselves into this mess.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2013-06-17 20:57:00 and read 7385 times.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 18):
I'm still struggling here. Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration. Isn't that non-negotiable?

I understand that US didn't like the way arbitration came out, but aren't they legally obligated to follow that course of action? I must be missing something, because this sounds too cut-and-dry to be problematic ...

You, I , and the entire civilized world get it. USAPA does not get it. The court cases on this over tha last 7 years are an interesting read. For a court to permit anything other than the arbitrated list, or perhaps a new 3 way arbitration, would set a precedent that would destroy arbitration as a tool. The repercusions would go well beyond this subject and industry.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 20):
So yes, arbitration got themselves into this mess.


I don't think we are saying anything similar. Arbitration came to be because the parties could not agree by other means. THAT is what got them to arbitration.

If not arbitration, what do you believe would be the proper course to a fair integration?

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: TW870
Posted 2013-06-17 21:33:26 and read 7300 times.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
Negative. Both pilot groups agreed to binding arbitration. The US side reniged on that when the arbitration didn't come out to their liking.
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6):
Some think the SLI may go to a three way arbitration. But, the East pilots have already demonstrated their word and honor of arbitration is nil.

I believe that McCaskill-Bond might actually make this easier. Once that law passed in 2008 (in the wake of the AA-TW flight attendant fiasco), everyone MUST agree to binding arbitration. If I have my time frame right, the US-HP merger took place prior to McCaskill-Bond. That meant that all merger seniority agreements were purely voluntary. The reason for that, of course, was that the DoT stopped enforcing Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions as they had been in mergers during the regulated era.

McCaskill-Bond ultimately says that all parties must agree to a fair and equitable seniority deal, and if one is absent, that binding arbitration decides. Since US-HP is still in dispute, I am not sure what latitude the arbitrator has to make a decision in that case. My hope is that it would be a 3-way arbitration, with the arbitrator's decision final. And that is how I read McCaskill-Bond. But that might just be too optimistic.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-06-17 22:15:31 and read 7202 times.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6):
But, the East pilots have already demonstrated their word and honor of arbitration is nil.

That only mattered because they far outnumbered the HP pilots.

I don't think the AA guys are going to put up with their crap.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 14):
So you have these 300 or so pilots, some who have been flying *continuously* for 16 years, getting a paycheck from USAirways, being told their time at MDA didn't count, so they are behind 22/23 y/o FO's fresh out of a regional.

A little exaggerated. Yes, those 300 pilots would be junior to the most junior HP F/O, who was hired in 1999. While the East has done some hiring (for the E190s), West hasn't.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: azjubilee
Posted 2013-06-17 22:39:34 and read 7059 times.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 21):
I don't think we are saying anything similar. Arbitration came to be because the parties could not agree by other means. THAT is what got them to arbitration.

If not arbitration, what do you believe would be the proper course to a fair integration?

I'm not saying arbitration was or was not the right course of action and I know what got them INTO arbitration. My initial point, from the very beginning was that arbitration, to which BOTH sides agreed to, was the little gem that has put the US and HP pilot groups into the situation they're in now. You're right, nothing was mutually agreed to prior to arbitration, but that's not the point. The point is that the US pilots were unhappy with the arbitrators decision and the whole situation has spiraled out of control since then. So yes, arbitration is what has landed US/HP in the mess they find themselves in.

Once again, I initially commented that arbitration is not as simple as LAXintl alleges and I site the US/HP and Mesaba/Pinnacle/Colgan groups as examples. I'm not taking sides on the US/HP debate, but merely using it as an example of how arbitrations can go wrong.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-06-18 07:44:13 and read 5335 times.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
In simplistic terms, US pilots would be brought up to AA pay levels (a 13-35% bump), with the AA pilot contract becoming the baseline for the unified group.
The groups and fleets would operate separately until a single union was selected to represent the combined group.

Personally, I feel the fact that there's a lot of money on the table and a larger, existing union in place, on top of the weariness the parties in the US/HP dispute have, will make for a smoother integration. Sure, there will be some aggrieved parties, but their union has already signed on to the agreement, so to have an effective dissent they will become a real splinter group without much relevance.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 13):
Further, an arbitrated award is what got HP and US into the current mess they're in.

Well, that and the fact that the East group was much larger than the West group so they had the votes to decertify the union that made the agreement they did not like. This isn't the case here.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 14):
That's when the US pilots threw out ALPA before they could submit the list to US management and the new union came into play.

  

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2013-06-18 07:56:39 and read 5255 times.

Quoting commavia (Reply 17):
Right now, the whole situation is like the Balkans - everybody is playing nice for the cameras because they all want the money.

But in the end, as others have said, make no mistake: this seniority integration is going to get ugly, and inevitably end up in arbitration and then likely in the courts.

This is why I've always felt an AA - US merger would be a disaster for everyone except AA/US's competitors.

When you combine one airline (AA) whose pilots are so militant that they have a history of wildcat strikes with another (US/HP) whose pilots have yet to agree to a combined seniority list, seven years after the merger, you are playing with lit dynamite.

I'm sure Richard Anderson is quietly waiting for many AAdvantage elite members, especially in Los Angeles and New York City, to defect to DL after the inevitable labor unrest and meltdowns destroy AA / US's reliability.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-06-18 08:09:31 and read 5271 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 25):
Personally, I feel the fact that there's a lot of money on the table and a larger, existing union in place, on top of the weariness the parties in the US/HP dispute have, will make for a smoother integration. Sure, there will be some aggrieved parties, but their union has already signed on to the agreement, so to have an effective dissent they will become a real splinter group without much relevance.

The East pilot group seems hell bent on re-ordering their seniority list to a pre-HP merger list with the HP guys merged into their list by date of hire. If that is the list submitted for arbitration this time around, there will be yet another DFR case against the union. I really don't think that this is going to end well unless some adults take over at USAPA.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: ckfred
Posted 2013-06-18 08:18:42 and read 5187 times.

The first question that comes to mind is how does the seniority at AA, US East, and US West skew? We know that compared to UA, DL, and WN, AA's pilots tend to have more years of flying.

I would assume that US East also has a number of more senior pilots, since it's a creation of Allegheny, Piedmont, and PSA, all carriers that predate deregulation.

Pilots I know at AA tell me they would just as soon go for date of hire, as opposed to any other seniority concept. No one is interested in stapling one group of pilots to the bottom of another group's seniority list.

My understanding is that whatever tentative agreement exists between US/AA and the unions call for fences around bases. That way, a senior pilot at either US East or US West can't push someone out of ORD or LGA/JFK, and an AA pilot can't push someone out at CLT or PHX.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2013-06-18 09:53:57 and read 4656 times.

Quoting TW870 (Reply 22):
My hope is that it would be a 3-way arbitration, with the arbitrator's decision final.

That would probably be the most expeditious and least resisited route. Well, as long as the USAPA participants will actually agree to arbitrator's decision being final.

Probably the option that management would like to see as well.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: TW870
Posted 2013-06-18 10:25:05 and read 4482 times.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 29):
Well, as long as the USAPA participants will actually agree to arbitrator's decision being final.

But as I said above, I think the passage of McCaskill-Bond in 2007 - which was not in effect during the original HP-US pilot ordeal - means that now all parties must observe the arbitrator's final decision. So the legal context has changed significantly since HP-US first happened, making a multiple decade dispute less likely.

More on McCaskill-Bond from AFA (the flight attendant union) here:

http://afaonevoice.org/images/McCask...xplanation%20FINAL%20for%20WEB.pdf

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: catiii
Posted 2013-06-18 10:55:23 and read 4301 times.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 26):
I'm sure Richard Anderson is quietly waiting for many AAdvantage elite members, especially in Los Angeles and New York City, to defect to DL after the inevitable labor unrest and meltdowns destroy AA / US's reliability.

I think this whole thing is going to be overblown. At a larger carrier, it is much easier to run an airline with separate seniority lists than at a smaller carrier. Parker and his team have shown that it can be done, and in fact done in a manner that allows the company to not have any operational impacts. I don't see any real hiccups in that area.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: usxguy
Posted 2013-06-18 11:06:44 and read 4234 times.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 19):

Those pilots were officially furloughed from US at the time. They had to be in order to take the "transfer" to Mid Atlantic.

As for the final arbitration award, the East pilot group presented that list to the arbitration panel and never filed an appeal after the arbitration.

Silentbob, I know a handful of guys who went directly from USAirways "mainline" into indoc training for the E170 program - they said almost no one from the first group of 200 or so ever sat "without a paycheck", so it was a seamless transition. Same for the flight attendants. It was once they got all 28 or so planes is when they brought back furloughees.

And lets not forget the holy-all mighty John Prater who was behind sending most of the MDA guys down the river, including some of the US ALPA MEC committee that treated MDA folks like stepchildren. It wasn't until some of the junior pilots started speaking up in PIT and PHL that ALPA even started to care about the MDA guys. And then when Nicolau came out it became THE big catalyst for many pilots wanting to get rid of ALPA at Airways.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: Flaps
Posted 2013-06-18 11:17:36 and read 4188 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 25):
Personally, I feel the fact that there's a lot of money on the table and a larger, existing union in place, on top of the weariness the parties in the US/HP dispute have, will make for a smoother integration. Sure, there will be some aggrieved parties, but their union has already signed on to the agreement, so to have an effective dissent they will become a real splinter group without much relevance.

Can I try try some of what you're smoking.....Please

The AA union raped the TW and Reno pilots. The US East pilots have been walking all over the US West guys for seven years. Do you really think these people are going to sit down, hold hands, sing cumbaya and agree to a fair and equitable settlement for all? Nope, its going to be a cage brawl plain and simple.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2013-06-18 11:19:07 and read 4167 times.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 14):
Parker & Kirby haven't been pushing for a single contract either, they have been enjoying the economics of 2 separate work groups.

Not their problem if part or all of the union decided to self-immolate. It was/is an entirely internal union issue.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 8):
Its going to be a bloodbath with every group out for themselves.

Hopefully we're pleasantly surprised but merging two unions with a long history of being self-destructive is unlikely to end well

Quoting catiii (Reply 31):
Parker and his team have shown that it can be done, and in fact done in a manner that allows the company to not have any operational impacts

They've made lemonade out of grenades disguised as lemons, to say the least.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-06-18 11:28:32 and read 4082 times.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 26):
I'm sure Richard Anderson is quietly waiting for many AAdvantage elite members, especially in Los Angeles and New York City, to defect to DL after the inevitable labor unrest and meltdowns destroy AA / US's reliability.

Why would there be labor unrest against the new AA? It is a conflict between employee groups, not between the company and its employees.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: WA707atMSP
Posted 2013-06-18 11:48:07 and read 3977 times.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 35):
Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 26):
I'm sure Richard Anderson is quietly waiting for many AAdvantage elite members, especially in Los Angeles and New York City, to defect to DL after the inevitable labor unrest and meltdowns destroy AA / US's reliability.

Why would there be labor unrest against the new AA? It is a conflict between employee groups, not between the company and its employees.

If one of the employee groups feel they have been treated unfairly, there is a good chance they will have a sick out and / or a slow down, in order to call attention to their plight.

It's happened before in the airline industry......

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-06-18 12:33:06 and read 3762 times.

The East pilots messed up the first arbitration. But correct me if I'm wrong, until the new contract is signed, pilots remain at the old pay rate? I certainly wouldn't pay US pilots AA rates until there was a contract.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 1):

Grab the popcorn, this is going to be one SLI battle with lots of fireworks!

  

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6):
As soon as they submit anything other than the arbitrated list, the West pilots have a valid legal case against USAPA, with possible culpability extending to any other party who participates in the use of the alternate list.

Which I expect. And since the pay is the 'carrot,' I expect this to be pushed through.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 6):
But, the East pilots have already demonstrated their word and honor of arbitration is nil.

   Their union is done with this is over, so they'll fight to the bitter end.

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 7):
I still fail to understand how binding arbitration isn't binding to USAPA.

Nor I. But they were able to get away with it...

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 11):
how hard is to go with date of hire

So you're saying HP should have had its pilots block the merger? Date of hire means any young airline should never take over a larger established airline.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 23):
I don't think the AA guys are going to put up with their crap.

But they will dish it out. So HP/US will too. This is every pilot for himself/herself. Trust me, the furloughed AMR (e.g., TWA) pilots want a say too.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 33):
The AA union raped the TW and Reno pilots. The US East pilots have been walking all over the US West guys for seven years. Do you really think these people are going to sit down, hold hands, sing cumbaya and agree to a fair and equitable settlement for all? Nope, its going to be a cage brawl plain and simple.

Its a mass cage fight for certain...

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
Hopefully we're pleasantly surprised but merging two unions with a long history of being self-destructive is unlikely to end well

I don't even have enough hope to think we'll be 'pleasantly surprised.'

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 35):
Why would there be labor unrest against the new AA? It is a conflict between employee groups, not between the company and its employees.

There will be collateral damage.

Quoting catiii (Reply 31):
I think this whole thing is going to be overblown.

I think the APA will try to do to US/HP what they did to TWA. Ensure they are protected over all others. There are 1,200 AMR pilots on furlough they would love to bring in over HP/US. These are the nastiest pilots unions out there. It will be a brawl of epic proportions.

Where is that popcorn smilie?  


Lightsaber

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: apodino
Posted 2013-06-18 12:50:10 and read 3656 times.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):

Except that the last of the AA pilots on furlough has been offered recall. There are a couple of more dynamics in play here than there were before. One is that many US pilots have retired and US has been hiring off the street for a while since the merger...so the group at US is more junior on a whole to the AA group. If DOH is used...you would be looking at about the status quo post merger...save for a few west pilots being downgraded. Macaskill Bond will ensure no stapling happens. And we also don't know if SLi was part of the TA or not. One other issue in play is that I believe that a lot of MQ pilots are on the AA seniority list...and a lot of AA positions will be filled from there. How do they figure in...especially given that Doug Parker is asking for concessions at MQ.

I don't think this will be smooth...but I am more optimistic than a lot of people on here are. I hope that is a good thing.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: LDVAviation
Posted 2013-06-18 13:04:50 and read 3569 times.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 36):
If one of the employee groups feel they have been treated unfairly, there is a good chance they will have a sick out and / or a slow down, in order to call attention to their plight.

It's happened before in the airline industry......

Treated unfairly by the company? Yes. But I fail to see the connection between a slowdown at the new AA and a conflict between employee groups. How would the employee groups justify that?

But why speculate? Has this happened so far at US Airways where this conflict started? Not that I can recall.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: Revelation
Posted 2013-06-18 13:38:54 and read 3345 times.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 27):
If that is the list submitted for arbitration this time around, there will be yet another DFR case against the union. I really don't think that this is going to end well unless some adults take over at USAPA.

In the great scheme of things, that's no cage brawl.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 33):
The AA union raped the TW and Reno pilots. The US East pilots have been walking all over the US West guys for seven years. Do you really think these people are going to sit down, hold hands, sing cumbaya and agree to a fair and equitable settlement for all?

You might want to note I said it'd make for a "smoother integration" and not a love fest.

The interests of the two unions calling the shots are largely aligned.

The ones holding the short straw are the US West guys, and this merger only makes their straw shorter.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: Flaps
Posted 2013-06-18 15:02:18 and read 3208 times.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 40):
The interests of the two unions calling the shots are largely aligned.

The ones holding the short straw are the US West guys, and this merger only makes their straw shorter.

That "alignment' will disappear the instant the seniority integration talks begin.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: AA94
Posted 2013-06-19 05:17:55 and read 2782 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 31):
I think this whole thing is going to be overblown. At a larger carrier, it is much easier to run an airline with separate seniority lists than at a smaller carrier. Parker and his team have shown that it can be done, and in fact done in a manner that allows the company to not have any operational impacts. I don't see any real hiccups in that area.

We've got one pilot union notorious for its volatile nature, and another union that can't even present a combined seniority list seven years after its merger closure. You don't at least see the possibility of hiccups when those two unions attempt to come together?

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: bobnwa
Posted 2013-06-19 06:28:14 and read 2691 times.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 27):
We know that compared to UA, DL, and WN, AA's pilots tend to have more years of flying.

"We" don't all know that

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-06-19 06:36:11 and read 2667 times.

Quoting apodino (Reply 38):
I don't think this will be smooth...but I am more optimistic than a lot of people on here are. I hope that is a good thing.

That is a good thing. I hope you are right and I am wrong.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: superjeff
Posted 2013-06-19 07:46:56 and read 2582 times.

HP literally rescued US from almost certain liquidation. US was operating in bankruptcy with little chance of a successful reorganization if not for HP. The US pilots (and, personally, i generally prefer flying with an East crew rather than a West),are lucky to have jobs. Just my 2 cents worth.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: catiii
Posted 2013-06-19 08:05:20 and read 2536 times.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 42):
You don't at least see the possibility of hiccups when those two unions attempt to come together?

I don't see it having an impact on the operation, no. Whatever labor issues they have amongst themselves they're going to have amongst themselves, but I don't see it impacting the overall operation.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: Flighty
Posted 2013-06-19 08:08:03 and read 2540 times.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 45):
US was operating in bankruptcy with little chance of a successful reorganization if not for HP.

LOL. And where would HP pilots be today, without the US east network? I don't really think WN would have bought HP. So that leaves them... disappearing, most likely around 2008.


All 3 pilot groups have things to be thankful for as this merger unfolds.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: Slcpilot
Posted 2013-06-19 08:14:44 and read 2524 times.

Me:
"With the merging of the three pilot groups, you'll have strife like you do in Iraq with the Shia, the Sunni, and the Kurds, only without the car bombs..."

My buddy:
"Who said there wouldn't be car bombs?"

Cheers?

SLCPilot

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-06-19 09:26:22 and read 2436 times.

Quoting catiii (Reply 46):

I don't see it having an impact on the operation, no. Whatever labor issues they have amongst themselves they're going to have amongst themselves, but I don't see it impacting the overall operation.

Actually, the East pilots were demonstrably slowing down the operation, and were slapped on the wrist for it by a federal judge.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2013-06-19 10:55:08 and read 2343 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 47):
OL. And where would HP pilots be today, without the US east network?

Probably still flying for a reduced size HP, or merged with a different carrier. Eveb if they started over at another carrier, their pay would be higher.
Maybe it would have been WN and HP, HP and FL, who knows. One thing is clear, and proven by history, and that is US's East network wasn't keeping US out of the red ink, so I can't see how it saved HP.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 47):
All 3 pilot groups have things to be thankful for as this merger unfolds.

On that we agree.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 49):
Actually, the East pilots were demonstrably slowing down the operation, and were slapped on the wrist for it by a federal judge.


They have always been obstructionist crybabies. If things get bad at the new AA in a few years, they and the APA hardliners will make Charlie Bryan look like Santa Clause.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: HPRamper
Posted 2013-06-19 11:56:25 and read 2276 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 47):
LOL. And where would HP pilots be today, without the US east network? I don't really think WN would have bought HP. So that leaves them... disappearing, most likely around 2008.

That's a fun topic in itself. I think seeing as Doug Parker was at the helm, they would have merged with someone else. US just happened to be a very low-hanging fruit that was especially juicy. I could easily see HP merging with AS, or even B6 in the environment of the late 2000s.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: Maverick623
Posted 2013-06-19 20:24:22 and read 2050 times.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 50):
One thing is clear, and proven by history, and that is US's East network wasn't keeping US out of the red ink, so I can't see how it saved HP.

Exactly. HP saved US from immediate liquidation. US gave HP a little play room with their money during the 2008-11 economic meltdown.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 47):
LOL. And where would HP pilots be today, without the US east network?

With either CO, UA, NW, or DL. The difference being, HP pilots would have been able to continue their careers uninterrupted and keep their hire date for at least the pay scale. US pilots would have found out what the Eastern pilots went through... show up to work one morning to find your badge doesn't work anymore.

Topic: RE: HP,AA,US Pilot Seniority
Username: silentbob
Posted 2013-06-19 21:20:01 and read 1997 times.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 51):
That's a fun topic in itself. I think seeing as Doug Parker was at the helm, they would have merged with someone else. US just happened to be a very low-hanging fruit that was especially juicy. I could easily see HP merging with AS, or even B6 in the environment of the late 2000s.

I think you hit upon a critical factor there, Parker is the reason HP and US are still around.


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