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Topic: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: 777way
Posted 2013-06-22 06:36:55 and read 23756 times.

happened in February but reported now, EK 773 with over 400 people was heading to Istanbul right after take off encountered a UAEAF Hawk fighter, apparently the two missed collision by mere seconds.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4642e276&opt=0

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: AyostoLeon
Posted 2013-06-22 07:10:14 and read 23428 times.

Lucky for all those involved that there was no collision or fatalities.

But the question that I have is why would the UAEAF aircraft be heading in the general direction of DXB, given that it is not exactly the world's quietest airport? OK, with the alignment of the runways at Al Minhad and Dubai the two flight paths, if maintained, would provide for an intersect roughly at Jebel Aqabah but if separation is maintained it shouldn't be a problem.

Looks like there could be the possibility of future airspace conflicts when DWC becomes fully operational as aircraft from Al Minhad taking off to the west will intercept will those from DWC heading north west, although in this instance it seems the aircraft passed through the airspace of both DWC and DXB! How that is possible when the linked article states that it was heading "north" remains unclear. While DXB is to the north of Al Minhad, DWC is to the south west.

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: flyhigh@tom
Posted 2013-06-22 09:54:59 and read 22666 times.

This is Sh** scary...given the low altitude and phase of flight for the 777

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: zeke
Posted 2013-06-22 10:10:40 and read 22512 times.

Sounds similar to a near collision in Bahrain between a 743 and USN F/A-18 in early June.

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: kl911
Posted 2013-06-22 11:56:47 and read 21998 times.

'Near miss' ? Shouldn't that be 'near hit'?






Just kidding.   Anyway, indeed scary at that altitude fully loaded with fuel. ( Scary at any altitude of course, but this must be the worst moment in flight to take evasive action.

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: AyostoLeon
Posted 2013-06-22 12:06:35 and read 21777 times.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 4):
'Near miss' ? Shouldn't that be 'near hit'?

I felt like asking the same question but was held back by an odd sense of "decorum".  

For the EK flight it seems that there was little or nothing they could do to avoid collision, given that there was a short time span and they, initially could not see the conflicting aircraft. It seems due to the belated change in direction of the UAEAF aircraft that a collision was avoided.

It still begs the question of why it would be following a flight path over DXB and, subsequently, how often such conflicts occur and pass without incident? As airspace becomes more congested (as suggested expansion at DXB suggests) will such events become more common but not reported?

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: ual747den
Posted 2013-06-22 12:41:36 and read 20805 times.

There is no evasive action that the flight could take at that point, the only thing that the Bosimg crew could do was hope the other aircraft was taking action. They are too low with not enough power behind them to do anything at all to avoid an aircraft at this point in flight.

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: kaitak
Posted 2013-06-22 13:05:12 and read 20152 times.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 5):
It still begs the question of why it would be following a flight path over DXB and, subsequently, how often such conflicts occur and pass without incident? As airspace becomes more congested (as suggested expansion at DXB suggests) will such events become more common but not reported?


This is an appalling and grossly irresponsible action on the part of the UAEAF pilot; he should be grounded at least, if not kicked out of the air force - which would happen if a USAF, RAF or a pilot from most other air forces did this.

To fly across densely populated airspace without radio contact is just incredible for a pilot at this level.

[Edited 2013-06-22 13:07:09]

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-06-22 13:14:43 and read 19868 times.

Quoting ual747den (Reply 6):
There is no evasive action that the flight could take at that point, the only thing that the Bosimg crew could do was hope the other aircraft was taking action. They are too low with not enough power behind them to do anything at all to avoid an aircraft at this point in flight.

Yeah they could have climbed. A 777-300ER is actually a pretty peppy airplane with those GE90-115s. Not sure if they were doing a derated Takeoff, but with pushing the thrust levers forward to maximum power they'd have some margin to increase their rate of climb.

TCAS Descent RAs are inhibited below a certain altitude (around 2000 feet comes to mind) and I think all RAs are inhibited below about 1000 feet, so they would have been in automatic TA only mode then.

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: tribird1011
Posted 2013-06-22 13:27:40 and read 19585 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8):
Yeah they could have climbed. A 777-300ER is actually a pretty peppy airplane with those GE90-115s. Not sure if they were doing a derated Takeoff, but with pushing the thrust levers forward to maximum power they'd have some margin to increase their rate of climb.

Sure... only 2 small problems....

1) climb towards a target that is ABOVE you and you don't have visual contact with, and

2) even if they were doing a derated take-off, how long would it take for those GE90's to actually get to "firewall" power once the thrust levers were advanced to the stops?

As much as the GE90's are great engines, they still obey "turbine laws" in that there is a lag between commanded output, and achieving that output.

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: jreuschl
Posted 2013-06-22 16:12:53 and read 16037 times.

Interesting that in this case, the passengers wouldn't have known anything, yet this could have been a crash, but something like a loss of engine, relatively minor, relates mass hysteria.

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: michaeljp
Posted 2013-06-23 00:15:10 and read 9055 times.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 7):

This is an appalling and grossly irresponsible action on the part of the UAEAF pilot; he should be grounded at least, if not kicked out of the air force - which would happen if a USAF, RAF or a pilot from most other air forces did this.

To fly across densely populated airspace without radio contact is just incredible for a pilot at this level


That will never happen here though!
The difference is, its been covered up, there was no reports of this in local media suggesting whomever was at fault is probably still flying one of those jets around without so much as a slap on the wrist.

Its disgusting how this is for one covered up and secondly no repercussions are brought.

As Tribird said, the 90's are amazing engines but it takes a while for them to spool up, even in the climb if we go from derated to toga its still 3-7 seconds before they're fully spooled then it'll still take a while before you have enough power to take evasive action.

[Edited 2013-06-23 00:17:38]

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: Falcon790
Posted 2013-06-23 01:49:10 and read 7603 times.

I don't understand why everyone says "no contact". The report clearly states that the Hawker was in contact with Dubai Approach Control Unit Al Minhad. They even requested an altitude change, which was followed by a decline from the controllers. After that, they were given the wrong freq. to contact to get that clearance. The fighter was even able to spot the 777 and maneuver to avoid the collision.

In my opinion, the Hawker pilots should be praised. I would hold Dubai Approach Control Unit Al Minhad accountable for all of this, not the pilots who prevented the possible accident.

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: bueb0g
Posted 2013-06-23 04:38:59 and read 5203 times.

Quoting Falcon790 (Reply 12):
I don't understand why everyone says "no contact". The report clearly states that the Hawker was in contact with Dubai Approach Control Unit Al Minhad. They even requested an altitude change, which was followed by a decline from the controllers. After that, they were given the wrong freq. to contact to get that clearance. The fighter was even able to spot the 777 and maneuver to avoid the collision.

In my opinion, the Hawker pilots should be praised. I would hold Dubai Approach Control Unit Al Minhad accountable for all of this, not the pilots who prevented the possible accident.

Are you kidding? Yes, they deserve praise for spotting and avoiding the 777 but, wrong frequency or not, they still flew into an active runway's extended centreline without contact with that tower. They also only tried the wrong frequency 11 seconds before the encounter, which is far too late - even if that had been the right frequency, the close encounter would still have happened because the Hawk was where it should not have been and 11 seconds probably wouldn't have been enough for the controller to resolve the conflict.

The situation leading up to it shouldn't matter. As soon as the Hawk got sufficiently close to the runway without contact with the tower, they should have turned around. Yes, ATC were a contributing factor but the main cause of this incident was the Hawk crew flying into a sensitive area with no radio contact.

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2013-06-23 04:50:34 and read 5015 times.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8):
A 777-300ER is actually a pretty peppy airplane with those GE90-115s.

The link says it was a B-773, not the B-77W. The B-777-300 has PW-4098s, RR-892s, or GE-90-92B/-94B engines, providing thrust between about 92,000 lbs. to 98,000 lbs. Of course the B-773 has a MTOW about 115,000 lbs. less than the B-77W. But neither model should have been near the MTOW for this mission.

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: BasilFawlty
Posted 2013-06-23 06:04:05 and read 3867 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
The link says it was a B-773, not the B-77W.

The link also says A6-EBD, which is a 77W.  

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: BoeingGuy
Posted 2013-06-23 12:19:13 and read 2664 times.

Quoting tribird1011 (Reply 9):
2) even if they were doing a derated take-off, how long would it take for those GE90's to actually get to "firewall" power once the thrust levers were advanced to the stops?

As much as the GE90's are great engines, they still obey "turbine laws" in that there is a lag between commanded output, and achieving that output.

I'm told that it's something like 7 seconds in a Windshear event in which you are going from far lower than derated TO thrust, so maybe 3-5 seconds.

Topic: RE: Emirates Scary Near Miss Incident
Username: lightsaber
Posted 2013-06-23 13:52:37 and read 2464 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
The link says it was a B-773, not the B-77W. The B-777-300 has PW-4098s, RR-892s, or GE-90-92B/-94B engines, providing thrust between about 92,000 lbs. to 98,000 lbs. Of course the B-773

Just an update, all PW4098s were bought back by Pratt and replaced with PW4090s. The one airline: KE. Most 773s, the few that there are, are with the RR-892s such as EKs (yes, KE and EK both bought 773s).

Quoting ual747den (Reply 6):
There is no evasive action that the flight could take at that point, the only thing that the Bosimg crew could do was hope the other aircraft was taking action.

Very little. And best to have the 2-seater evade than a widebody with over 400 souls on board.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 7):
To fly across densely populated airspace without radio contact is just incredible for a pilot at this level.

I'm in shock at reading about this:
ot in contact with Dubai however transponding Mode-C, was about to cross the extended runway center line of runway 12R at 600 feet AGL and 353 knots over ground.

Whisky Tango foxtrot. Over a runway centerline at low altitude and a pretty high speed for that altitude? No airliner pilot would be looking for that! That is hot rodding pure and simple and the Hawk pilot should be grounded for months (at a minimum). I don't care if this was piloted by Sheik Mo's son. The pilot should be disciplined to keep it from ever happening again. If there had been a collision, It would have done huge harm to the Dubai economy as well as cost a large toll in lives.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8):
Yeah they could have climbed.

In big object vs. small fast object, the right of way rules clearly state the small fast object avoids the collision. This is true of boats vs. ships or in aircraft.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 16):
I'm told that it's something like 7 seconds in a Windshear event in which you are going from far lower than derated TO thrust, so maybe 3-5 seconds.

   About the right time frame. This event came and went before the 773 pilot could do a thing. Big aircraft are not meant to be thrown about like a fighter (or Hawk, in this case).

Lightsaber


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